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Joint Committee on Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth debate -
Tuesday, 26 Apr 2022

Organisation of Working Time (Domestic Violence Leave) Bill 2020: Discussion (Resumed)

We have apologies from Deputies Costello and Phelan and Senators O'Sullivan and Ruane. Senator McGreehan is listening in to the meeting. Deputy O'Reilly is substituting for Deputy Ward.

The purpose of the meeting is pre-Committee Stage detailed scrutiny of the Organisation of Working Time (Domestic Violence Leave) Bill 2020. It is a Private Members' Bill and its sponsors are Deputies McDonald and O'Reilly. Joining us today are Ms Sarah Benson, chief executive of Women's Aid; Ms Allison Graham, chief executive of Saoirse Domestic Violence Services; Ms Marie Mulholland, chief executive of West Cork Women Against Violence; and Ms Julie Mernagh, head of people development and operations, and Ms Aoife Mulqueen, talent and development partner of Vodafone. They are welcome and I offer apologies for the slight delay due to the Dáil vote.

We invited representatives of Men's Aid to the meeting but, unfortunately, due to other commitments, they were not in a position to attend and sent their sincere apologies.

In relation to Covid-19, we ask people to exercise personal responsibility and to be respectful of the physical space of others. People are advised to adhere to any other public health advice.

For anyone joining us through MS Teams, the chat function is only to be used to make the team on site aware of any technical issues or urgent matters that may arise and is not to be used to make general comments or statements or have a general discussion during the meeting.

On parliamentary privilege, witnesses participating from the committee room are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. If a witness's statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, the witness will be directed to discontinue his or her remarks. It is imperative witnesses comply with any such direction.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to that constitutional requirement. Any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. I ask any member participating via MS Teams to confirm, prior to making a contribution, that he or she is on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

I will call witnesses in the following order: Ms Benson, then Ms Graham, Ms Mulholland and, finally, Ms Mernagh. They each have five minutes for opening statements and then we have a speaking rota whereby members will ask questions. I welcome the witnesses and thank them for being with us.

Ms Sarah Benson

I thank the Chair and bid good afternoon to members. I am delighted to have the opportunity to represent Women’s Aid before the committee. Women's Aid endorses the introduction of paid domestic violence leave in Ireland as a vital support for survivors, and welcomes the opportunity to make this statement to the joint committee regarding the domestic violence leave Bill.

Economic independence from an abusive partner is essential for women experiencing domestic abuse and employment is a key element of financial independence. Women’s Aid believes that paid domestic violence leave can play an important role in supporting abused women to remain in employment and therefore expand their agency and choices. We warmly welcome this Bill and its proposed vehicle primarily being through amendments to the Organisation of Working Time Act.

At least one in four women in Ireland have been subjected to some form of abuse from a current or former partner. A 2014 survey carried out by the Trades Union Congress in the UK and the Republic of Ireland found that domestic violence affects performance and attendance at work. Of those who experienced domestic violence, over 40% said the abuse affected their ability to get to work and 57% said they had to take time off work because of the abuse.

Paid domestic violence leave is used in other jurisdictions for survivors to be able to attend to important and urgent matters related to domestic violence which cannot be dealt with after hours or which require immediate attention. This could be because these activities are at a specific time that cannot be changed, such as court proceedings, because they are not open after hours or because it is safer for the survivor to attend while the perpetrator thinks he or she is at work. Domestic violence leave should include activities that are not already covered by other forms of leave such as sick leave or force majeure.

The introduction of paid domestic violence leave through this Bill potentially offers survivors a number of important benefits including retaining employment and financial independence, reducing the risk of poverty, enhancing safety, repositioning responsibility to the external factor of the abuser, supporting dignity in the workplace and offering a potential opportunity to be informed in work about specialist support services that might help.

Our concerns with any such legislation are that there should not be excessive barriers to paid leave for domestic violence being requested or granted, including employers requiring high levels of proof of domestic violence, such as accepting only police reports or court orders; a lack of awareness of paid leave being an option; fear that confidentiality will not be maintained; and stigma and shame. Ideally, all employers should introduce domestic abuse policies and procedures to create a clear, consistent and transparent context for responding to employees suffering abuse and employees perpetrating abuse.

There should not be an emphasis on requiring proof for employees to avail of this leave. We advocate an approach based on trust and collaboration. Our position is that this will be sufficient given the low likelihood of an employee unnecessarily disclosing an experience of domestic abuse for anything but authentic reasons. This issue carries with it stigma and shame which any statutory measures ought to try to mitigate and not exacerbate by requiring proof of abuse.

While employees should be required to give advance notice of leave when possible, there may be emergency situations when it is not and this should be allowed for. It therefore needs to be treated in a similar fashion to force majeure, whereby it can be applied at short notice or retrospectively. In our reading of the proposed new section 23D, the Bill appears to accommodate circumstances where leave cannot be prearranged. We welcome the fact that no requirement for evidence is stipulated, which is extremely important to ensure the leave is fit for purpose.

We note reference to employees giving notification of domestic violence leave "in the prescribed form". Guidance as to what the "prescribed form" for requesting this leave should and should not be would be useful to ensure employers do not seek to invoke unnecessary and intrusive barriers to employees who may need to avail of this leave.

Women's Aid believes the leave should be a minimum of ten days per rolling 12-month period, which is stipulated in the Bill. This should not be reduced. In certain cases, ten days may not be enough and additional unpaid leave may be necessary.

We recommend consideration of a process for additional leave to cover exceptional circumstances. Ideally, this should be additional paid leave but at a minimum, it should be some unpaid leave provision that could work similarly to maternity leave provisions.

A key consideration in regards to domestic violence leave is confidentiality. Records of domestic violence leave must be confidential and only shared on a need-to-know basis. Under section 23D(4) of the Bill, employers are to maintain confidentiality regarding domestic violence leave and it is an offence not to do so. There are exceptions to this including disclosing information to "employees or agents of the employer who require the information to carry out their duties". This may be sufficient for the legislation but for successful implementation, it may benefit from some more guidance to assist employers in developing a policy that will be clear on what these exceptions may and may not be. Additionally, if there is a dispute about domestic violence leave in the Labour Court, there is no requirement that this would be in camera and these can be in public. We note that this was previously discussed in the committee and we simply refer again to this possibly requiring some further attention.

As stated at the outset, Women's Aid supports this legislation. We welcome this Bill in particular as one that has undergone extensive development, consultation and consideration of similar practices in other jurisdictions. Many good employers in Ireland have already taken or commenced steps to create a supportive initiative for employees subjected to domestic abuse as they see it as a complete win-win to be a good employer and to boost productivity and staff retention in a way that empowers those most in need. Women's Aid is currently actively collaborating in this work with a range of such employers, as are some of the unions.

I acknowledge that in early 2021, the Minister commenced an additional consultation process on a statutory leave to which we duly made a submission. This was mooted as a process after which it was expected that legislation for domestic violence leave would be produced. We expected the findings of the submissions process and any recommendations to have been published in late 2021 and early 2022 but this has not yet happened. At the same time, the Minister has alluded to some other - possibly as yet undrafted - legislative vehicle for domestic violence leave. Women's Aid is deeply concerned that the opportunity to enact this critically important law should not be delayed. It should not be hitched to other legislation, which may be seeking to achieve other tangentially related ends. This Bill, which appears on the face of it to have cross-party support - why would it not? - should be the legislation that the Government supports as it cannot wait.

We have met employers, employer groups, unions and, of course, many survivors who see the huge value of this with a limited actual cost. We hope that the work by this committee can produce a cross-party endorsement for this Bill without delay or deflection. I again thank the committee again for the opportunity to submit our views on this important legislation. I am very happy to respond to any questions the committee may have.

I now invite Ms Graham to make her opening statement.

Ms Allison Graham

I thank the committee for inviting me to represent Saoirse Domestic Violence Services today. This is a very important Bill and is not before time so we hope it will receive swift attention after this. Domestic violence is the abuse of power over another person in an intimate or close family relationship by a perpetrator to maintain absolute control over another. It takes many forms from physical to psychological, financial to sexual and intimidation to coercive control. It also occurs in all walk of life and all facets of Irish society and imposes serious harm on those suffering its relentless grip day in, day out. Victims of domestic violence quite often suffer silently if they have not reached out for support or told family, friends, or work colleagues. They keep the essentials going - going to work, study, minding their children, looking after their home and paying bills - and put on a brave face to keep everyday life and commitments functioning as much as possible. Financial abuse has been disclosed by more and more women over the past five to ten years in our services. These include women in paid employment who have little or no control over their own wages.

The availability of access to domestic violence leave from work will play an essential role in providing crucial compassionate supports to staff and in acknowledging that there are women and men in every workplace in Ireland suffering violent relationships when they go home. Having access to domestic violence leave will benefit victims in the short term by offering some immediate space to access support services, seek refuge or move house and attend court to secure legal protections while not having to worry about their job security or loss of wages. As a lot of these appointments are during working hours, people are forced to take annual leave days or unpaid absence or even leave their job to access help. In the longer term, the benefits will include employment sustainability and financial independence, as well as the continued raising of awareness of domestic violence.

At Saoirse Domestic Violence Services, we have worked with many women over the years who struggle with balancing work and living in a violent relationship. These are women who often were forced to flee the abuse day or night and make their way to our refuge. They may have fled with only the clothes on them and no clear knowledge of where they are going. They could be due in work the next morning after escaping with their children during the night - often with some physical as well as psychological injuries. They worry about not going into work, calling in sick or asking for time off at short notice as they usually have not disclosed their abuse to their employer or manager. They worry about losing their job if they are new there or still on probation. They cannot afford to take unpaid days off. They may be staying in a refuge in a different county, need to get children to school or crèche, have limited family supports nearby and have the worry of work in the mix. When woman have been able to tell their employer and ask for help and time off, they have always felt an immediate relief that they can stop juggling that piece for now and instead focus on themselves, their children and their safety options.

Women in our services often feel massive shame about telling their employer that they are in a violent relationship and worry about confidentiality, particularly if it is a smaller organisation or one connected to family or friends, for example. They will persevere in silence and keep the job going rather than feel shame and to protect the perpetrator. The recognition of these women's experiences through legislating for the provision of domestic violence leave is very powerful. It tells them that we believe them and that what they are going through is important to us. It tells these women that domestic violence is not tolerated and it provides immediate practical support when they need it without fear of consequences. Not having the requirement to prove the domestic violence to an employer is welcomed as many victims may not have sought out any supports yet or reported it to anyone and it could act as a barrier to people taking this leave if they feel they have to prove they are being abused. Importantly, it also sends out a clear message that domestic violence is not a private matter best keep behind closed doors. It is affecting too many women, men and children and it affects their work life too.

We feel that now is the time to act on this and swiftly follow the lead of some commendable organisations and third-level institutions in Ireland that have already introduced domestic violence leave for their employees. Saoirse Domestic Violence Services fully supports the provision of domestic violence leave within the organisation of working time Bill spearheaded by Deputies O'Reilly and McDonald and welcomes the speedy introduction of it without further delay.

I now invite Ms Mulholland to make her opening statement.

Ms Marie Mulholland

I thank the committee for the invitation to speak to it this afternoon. I am the CEO of West Cork Women Against Violence. We provide a support service to women and children experiencing domestic violence in west Cork. Our work extends from Macroom to the west and Bandon to the east across three peninsulas - Mizen, Sheepshead and Beara - and seven inhabited islands. This rural geography and the remoteness of large parts of the region we service will figure significantly in my comments to the committee today.

This Bill is a major step forward as it inherently recognises the extensive challenges placed on those experiencing domestic violence and so provides a response to alleviate some of those challenges with sympathetic, pragmatic employment supports and protections that ensure victims are not further penalised or discriminated against because of their need for those supports.

When a woman is forced to take action to save herself and her children from domestic abuse, she has to navigate soul-sapping channels of bureaucracy, embark on labyrinthine journeys to access legal protections and spend achingly frustrating hours arranging and attending appointments with multiples of or sometimes every one of the following - doctor, Garda, solicitor, court clerk, social worker, counsellor, domestic violence support worker, housing officer and landlords - and has to synchronise all of those in her out-of-work hours and within the school pick-up schedule. As mammoth a task as that is, let us consider the virtual odyssey she has to undertake to get to the offices of those professional agencies and institutions if she lives in an area like west Cork. For our purposes, let us make it easy. Today, our client is from Bantry and so can easily access our domestic violence support service in the town where she seeks help in obtaining a protection order. This will require a statement from her in her own words as to the events that led her to need protection. We will assist her to write her statement. This process can take upwards of three hours and more usually most of the day because she is recounting traumatic events, is being retriggered and becoming distressed and needs rest breaks.

Her paperwork is then submitted to the court clerk’s office to be scheduled for a hearing at the next immediate sitting. However, the next sitting may be in Clonakilty which is 51 km away, a 50 minute drive from Bantry, or it could be in Bandon which is a 120 km round trip.

Let us make it more straightforward today because we do not have time to wait for a rural bus service. We will give our client her own means of transport, which is just as well because there is no public transport directly to Clonakilty from Bantry. However, if she had to be in Bandon for court, there is a bus from Bantry at 8.30 a.m. that will get her to Bandon for 10.20 a.m., in time for court commencement. Then she has to hope that her case will be heard and a protection order granted in time to catch the 4.40 p.m. bus back to Bantry, arriving at 5.50 p.m. Should it be a busy court schedule, she may leave on the last bus which arrives in Bantry at 8.15 p.m. Either way, it will have taken her the best part of 12 hours to attend court and get her protection order. The cost is approximately €20, which is for the bus fare and excludes eating, drinking and childcare costs.

For today’s purposes our client has a car and she hopes that the waiting time in court, where a myriad of other cases are to be heard from drug offences to licensing applications, is not so lengthy. She is praying that she will be squeezed into the judge’s schedule before the kids get out of school and that she has enough money to cover the petrol for her 100 km trip. On this occasion, she gets her temporary protection order and must return in a week’s time to get her safety order. On that date the court is sitting in Macroom, a 108 km round trip with no direct bus service available. She will worry about that next week. For now, the next most important step is to organise an appointment with the doctor to get help with sleeping and to request a referral for her oldest to the HSE child psychologist. Her boy is still wetting the bed at 11 years of age and hides in the hot press when he hears his father shouting.

As the family home is on her partner’s family farm, she has been advised to put her name on the council housing list as soon as she can. To do so she will require, on average, 12 different documents and as many as 17, particularly if she is a non-Irish resident. Some of the documents she may need will require a fee to obtain and some may need to be translated, for yet another hefty fee. She will also have to present herself to the council office to be assessed should she become homeless due to domestic violence. All this will require trips, phone calls and requests to various institutions and agencies to provide proof that she has no other means of accommodation and is not intent on subverting council services which are located in only one office in west Cork, in Clonakilty. It is a good job she does not live in Castletownbere or it would be a 200 km round trip to the housing office, with no direct bus service; worse still, she could be travelling from one of the islands.

Regretfully, I have seen too many women forced to give up work because of the rigorous, ongoing demands of organising safety and well-being for themselves and their children, resulting in work becoming incompatible with survival. The freedom to work outside the home may have been one of the only freedoms a woman could exercise in a coercively controlled relationship and ironically, she may often have to sacrifice that employment to navigate her route to protection. The right to paid leave and to continue in employment means a victim of domestic violence can put petrol in the car, pay bus fares, fees, pay for doctor’s appointments and, crucially, have some level of economic independence and security.

I would respectfully suggest that it be made clear that the ten days domestic violence leave can be taken over a staggered period as waiting times, appointment availability and court sittings do not, unfortunately, occur on convenient, consecutive days. Outside of court days, most other appointments and commitments can be met by taking a few hours leave on the required dates. In that context, consideration should be given to domestic violence leave that is calculated in hours.

There is a clear, victim-centred focus to this Bill which I welcome, but it also has benefits for employers, permitting them to keep experienced staff who might otherwise have to leave their employ. It also reduces the employee’s stress and loss of focus on the job which can often occur over an extended period where a victim has very little access to paid leave to attend to the necessary processes she needs to engage in. In combining benefits for both employee and employer, consideration of a period of flexible working for those employees who are engaged in efforts to improve their safety has proven very useful in other jurisdictions. Flexible working has helped to overcome so many economic and social challenges, as we have found recently. In this situation too, an option of flexible working would allow some women to work while also managing the new reality of their changed circumstances and environment which cannot be overcome within a specified, ring-fenced number of days or hours.

I thank the committee members for listening and especially for their efforts to support employees who are victims of domestic violence and coercive control.

Thank you so much, Ms Mulholland. I now invite Ms Mernagh to give her opening statement.

Ms Julie Mernagh

Good morning everyone. My name is Julie Mernagh and I am the head of people development and operations in Vodafone Ireland, where I am responsible for our diversity and inclusion strategy. I am joined by Ms Aoife Mulqueen, who is our diversity and inclusion specialist. I thank the committee for inviting us here today. We are incredibly proud of the work we do on domestic violence and abuse and are delighted to be able to share our story with the committee.

Why, as an employer, did we decide to focus on domestic violence and abuse? We are able to tell our story today because Vodafone is a purpose-led organisation. This enables us to stand up for those who are less fortunate than us and ensure that nobody is left behind. Over three years ago we launched our purpose as an organisation, which is to Connect for a Better Future. That purpose is underpinned by three pillars, namely, Digital Society, Inclusion for All and Planet. Our work on domestic violence and abuse fits firmly into the category of Inclusion for All.

To provide some context, we are over ten years into our diversity and inclusion journey in Vodafone Ireland. We want to be an organisation that supports our people through both the highs of working with us but also through the lows they might encounter. We want to support them through all of the eventualities of life. To reach this ambition we have launched a number of progressive policies over the last number of years from flexible working through maternity leave, non-birthing parent leave, our global menopause commitment and just last month we launched our new policies around pregnancy loss, fertility and surrogacy leave mirroring our generous maternity leave policy. We are here today to talk about our groundbreaking policy on domestic violence and abuse. We are proud that we were the first company in Ireland to introduce such a policy and this is all part of our desire to be an employer that really supports its employees through all stages of their life.

Why does it matter and why did we decide to focus on domestic violence? We know that one in four women and one in seven men in Ireland are impacted by domestic violence. Last year the Vodafone Foundation commissioned global research which highlighted a 53% increase in domestic violence during the pandemic and that 63% of victims of domestic violence feel safer at work than at home. Our research also told us that for 94% of victims, domestic violence and abuse had a negative impact on their work performance. This highlights the necessity for employers to develop a domestic violence policy.

How did we decide to address this in Vodafone Ireland? As with any of our work on diversity and inclusion, this required us to take a multipronged approach which included a domestic violence policy, people-manager training and breaking the taboo. By talking about this openly in the workplace, we empower our people to ask for help. In designing our policy, we conducted research on how companies and governments in other countries such as New Zealand support victims and survivors of domestic violence. Our senior leaders were incredibly supportive of this work so we are able to use the policy to provide a generous leave allowance, among other supports. What does that include? It includes ten days of paid annual leave which can be used for court appearances, moving home and so on. It also includes full use of our flexible working policy and now, our hybrid working policy. During the pandemic, it is important to note, we kept our offices open. This was important because it gave potential victims of domestic violence a safe place to go, away from their home environment. We also provide assistance in setting up a bank account, as well as a change of email address and phone number. Like all staff members, we also provide support through access to our employee assistance programme. Privacy and confidentiality are of the utmost importance in our policy. The policy clearly describes employees' route to accessing the support they need via their people manager or the HR department.

A vital part of our work was our people manager training. As part of the domestic violence policy we partnered with Women’s Aid to co-design and co-deliver training for our people manager community. This was designed to empower them to support a victim of abuse in an incredibly difficult time. We also put our HR team through a full day's training and our people manager community, all 130 of them, through a half day's training in the summer of 2019. This training covered our recognise, respond, and refer model to taking a domestic abuse disclosure. It also highlighted the role of the people manager in signposting the way to professional advice and support from organisations like Women’s Aid. In response to the increase in domestic violence over the pandemic, we also ran refresher training last year, as well as open company discussions on the topic in which all employees were able to engage.

Finally, why should other employers follow our lead? What has been the impact of our policy so far? In 2021 Dr. Jane Pillinger, an international researcher and expert on domestic violence conducted a study on the impact of Vodafone’s domestic violence policy. Given confidentiality, we are unable to disclose specifics but that research included several case studies of domestic violence policies in action that showed the positive impact our supports had on the lives of our employees.

I will share one example. The victim had ended a relationship with an abusive partner and moved out however the abuse continued at her new temporary home and at work. Through accessing the domestic violence policy this individual was able to disclose the situation to her people manager, connect with an expert support organisation, and create a personalised safety plan. This person was then able to take domestic violence leave to attend solicitors and court appointments to take a protection order covering her home and workplace. Domestic violence leave also assisted the victim in coping with the emotional and psychological toll of the abuse, while still maintaining her independence and source of income.

We know that policies such as ours can evoke change and make a real difference in creating a better, safer future in our society.

I thank Ms Mernagh. All the contributions were very powerful, particularly the account of how difficult it is for someone living in a rural area. There was a paragraph that summed it up so well including the difficulties of getting to so many things. It is why so many people do not leave. There are so many obstacles. We see that a lot around family farms and things like that. The statements were all excellent. It is great to see that there are employers such as Vodafone leading the way. I think this will be a really good session and I am glad that we are not under time pressure, unusually.

I thank the Chair and all the members of the committee secretariat for the work that has gone into the session today. I particularly thank our witnesses. I want to say a particular word of thanks to Ms Mulholland because she has outlined in very stark detail the picture of a woman that I could nearly relate to myself. We were all nodding along in recognition of the obstacles around people getting to things. The outline was very welcome because it is very real. The one takeaway is that this is very real. As I am sure she will not mind me saying, the Chair and I are both former trade union organisers. We have experienced this from the other side and have seen the impact it has had. We have seen women in their workplace fade away because they do not speak up and they do not want to answer questions about what they were doing at the weekend or talk about why they were off work yesterday. They do not want to look into the faces of their colleagues who are cross because they have taken another day off without any notice and all of that kind of thing. I have seen that and I know the Chair has seen it. As public representatives, we probably have all seen in it our clinics as well. To nearly put a face on it, Ms Mulholland's contribution was very valuable and useful. It stopped us all in our tracks a little so I thank her particularly and I thank all our witnesses.

My first questions are for Ms Benson and Ms Mernagh and are on this legislation. I am one of its sponsors. It is an amendment to the Organisation of Working Time Act because I regard it as a workers' rights issue that should be part of the workplace leave and part of the normal way that a workplace functions. Does Ms Benson think there is a benefit in treating this form of leave as part of a suite of leave to which a person is entitled under the Organisation of Working Time Act, rather than adding the legislation to a work-life balance Bill or other legislation? For me, it is firmly situated as a workplace issue and a workers' rights issue but I would welcome the views of anyone in this regard, albeit those of Ms Benson and Ms Mernagh in the first instance.

Ms Sarah Benson

There are two reasons Women's Aid supports its inclusion in its current form as an amendment to the Organisation of Working Time Act. One is the reason Deputy O'Reilly mentioned. There is still huge stigma associated with domestic violence. Anything that would spotlight it in an erroneous, additional or separate manner than any other ordinary leave buys into and feeds into the idea that it is not a legitimate reason you would need to take time off, just like your children being sick or your annual leave entitlement to rest and recover or just like having Covid-19 and needing to stay in bed. It is incredibly important in the way that we as a society deal with domestic violence that we do so in a way that it is something that unfortunately happens, and to far too many women and to some men in this country. If we are to respond to it, we need to do so in a highly pragmatic way that respects the dignity of an employee and it should be treated in that way.

It also makes it understandable. The success of legislation like this, in the same way as an individual employer undertaking to put in a policy, as we in Women's Aid have done, is to be able to clearly introduce it as just another one in the suite of employee policies that are there. It is not something strange or different but just something that we have with guidelines and explanations internally around how you access it, as well as assurances around the confidentiality, the same as sick leave confidentiality or anything else. Putting it in there is very important.

The other is a very pragmatic reason which I flagged, perhaps cheekily, at the end of my statement, namely, time. At the moment we have something that is well developed, that has already gone through consultation and which reflected on the experience in other jurisdictions, which we fed into back in 2018 and 2019 when it was being developed. We do not see any reason for rehashing it and trying to position it in another legal vehicle.

Ms Julie Mernagh

We also support the recommendation for a couple of reasons. We have many debates when we introduce new policies in Vodafone Ireland. We are always challenging ourselves and asking what barriers exist that we need to remove for our employees. We always end up landing on the idea that having a specific policy to address a specific issue is the right way to go. We have anecdotal and direct feedback from employees whenever we introduce new policies such as those around domestic violence that by having something on a specific issue, they are given that permission to ask for help. It also stimulates a company-wide conversation. That is the second lesson learned by introducing such a policy. Our power against domestic violence is openly talking about it in the organisation. That is not always easy. It can be incredibly difficult. You have to get extremely strong buy-in from senior leadership. That is another key lesson that we learned. The CEO and leadership team need to be really bought into this. They need to be role modelling it and advocating from the top. Having a direct policy in place that sits alongside all the other policies that exist opens up the conversation and empowers people to raise their hands and ask for help. We know from direct feedback that has made a difference and has helped put in place safety plans to help people and save their lives.

My next question is for Ms Graham and Ms Mulholland. It is more around the current impact of not having any access to paid leave for victims and survivors. Is it their experience that women - and I will say women because it is mostly women but not only women - have lost their jobs? Have they found themselves in that situation because they could not access leave? It is important to put it in the legislation but it also is important to have the conversations that go along with it and to bring the subject out of the shadows. Do they see there is a value in that? Practically speaking, in their experience is this the case? Thinking of my own experience, I can think of at least one case, and possibly two, where I can say the person definitely lost their job because they could not access paid leave and they had exhausted every other form of leave.

Ms Allison Graham

Absolutely. Over the years we have seen numerous women, I could not count them, who lost their job. It might be because they could not give the ongoing commitment of being in work day in, day out. They may have come to a refuge that may be in a different county or area and they may not have transport and may not have the family supports etc. that they were used to having.

We have seen women who had to take the very difficult decision to leave a job and hand in their notice because they just felt they could not handle it any more, could not keep juggling it all and could not commit to it, or there was pressure coming from their employers, who were noting that they had taken a lot of time off, said they were unreliable or asked what was going on. Employers would say that they needed to be in work and they could not take time off. Women doing shift work and all sorts of other work have faced challenges because they were not able to commit to it any more. There have been numerous women who have lost employment because of that. I mentioned that some of these women were new in jobs and perhaps were trying to prove themselves. Many of them were not from Ireland originally and had moved here, and had struggled to get a job. They got a job, this had happened and they felt that they could not speak to their manager. There was not an open door in terms of feeling that they could speak about it and what they were going through. There also have been women who have muddled through, done their best and continued to go to work. It has taken its toll on their mental and physical health. At the same time, they are looking for a safer option away from the abuse and are trying to keep their kids going with some normality. It is a big challenge for women, first to talk about it in their job to their manager and second, to find some sort of compassion. Our experience has been that some employers are open when women come forward and speak to them. We have asked women what would be the worst thing that would happen if they spoke to their managers, then they have spoken to them and have found them to be very compassionate. There have also been women who have had a very negative experience, where nothing was listened to and there was no compassion or empathy. The women were pushed out the door because they could not commit to the work and the managers did not want to know about their personal problems.

Ms Marie Mulholland

I had a client recently who had to give up her job because she just could not keep doing it. She could not keep the front up either. Many of the women that we see are in low-paid and part-time employment. They do not have access to a lot of paid leave anyway. To have something such as that set out in the Bill, which would give them additional paid leave, would be extremely important. The other point to note is that after the immediacy of the need to escape and get somewhere safe, there is a lengthy period of continuing court appearances. There may be appearances concerned with breaches of the order and access court appearances. That can go on. We run a therapy programme for children impacted by domestic violence. Who is going to take the child to the appointment except mum? That appointment will be when there is availability. There are constant and ongoing appointments and other considerations. After a while, it just becomes too difficult for women to hang on to their jobs. I see it all the time. A client has recently given up the ghost on her job. That is why I strongly endorse this Bill. It is a real opportunity for women to keep that level of independence and economic security.

If there is time, I have one more question. The question is addressed first to Ms Benson, and then to the other witnesses. We have more or less covered this issue, but I want to be belt and braces about it. Are the witnesses happy and satisfied that enough consultation has been done? We could say that there is never enough consultation. We could be doing it for the rest of our lives. At some point, we have to draw a line and say that we have consulted and listened and now need to move forward. Are the witnesses happy that this legislation reflects the needs of victims and survivors as it currently stands? Do they feel that more consultation and another report is required? Do they think that another round-table discussion or something similar would be worthwhile, or do they feel that they have put it all out there and there is nothing more we could possibly add to it?

Ms Sarah Benson

I will acknowledge that a consultation has been undertaken, which we fed into. We have also had bilateral meetings with some of the other stakeholders, as I mentioned. I think it is important for the success of anything like that to give the opportunity for all stakeholders to feed in. I would welcome the publication of the additional one. In doing so, I would be laser-focused on whether there is anything in there that has not already been articulated. If it has already been said, then we do not need to say it again. It is probably necessary to share that, but only from that perspective. I do not want to speak for or name any other organisations but we have met unions, employers and some employers' representatives, where one might think that concerns may arise. We have not found those concerns. What we have found is an openness and a willingness. When we think very practically about it, it is about maintaining productivity. It also represents an incredible pivoting of the employer. Unwittingly, in many cases, employers are a pressure point that is a tool of the abuser in a coercive controlling situation, where actually, in some cases, the express intention is to get the woman to give up work, because that makes her economically dependent. This legislation pivots the employer to being an ally. It costs very little. As I have said, the net gains that we have seen in other jurisdictions seem to be that employee confidence in their employers improves and they feel looked after. Their productivity is higher because they know that they have that safety net and they are not carrying all that pressure. We have found that when we have those conversations, there is not anybody who would not entertain it. Of course, we should ask whether there is anything different that we have not heard yet, and take it into consideration.

In my opinion, it is unlikely that anything will emerge at this stage. I feel that there is a lot of research and evidence in the public domain already. I am not saying that we should draw a line under it and stop learning, as every day is a school day for everyone, but perhaps we are in a position to state we know enough now to move forward. I am conscious that I have taken up a lot of time. I might come back in if I get a chance.

I call Deputy Cairns.

I thank the witnesses for appearing before the committee and for sharing their insights with us. They are invaluable for us to hear, as a committee. I particularly welcome Ms Mulholland, from West Cork Women Against Violence. The organisation does incredible work in my constituency supporting women and children experiencing violent and abusive situations, as well as providing counselling services, training and outreach. Women's Aid and Saoirse Domestic Violence Services also provide similar life-changing and lifesaving services. In this room, we are all aware of the sheer terrifying scale of domestic violence in Ireland. The Bill from Deputies O'Reilly and McDonald really responds to the issues and realities faced by women and children who are trying to escape violent and coercive situations. I cannot overstate the value of the committee understanding the specific challenges in rural areas, including the complexities of issues like family farms. I know this from when I was first elected to the council and worked with West Cork Women Against Violence on issues around access to things as basic as that. Women used to be able to go to the community welfare office to access emergency accommodation. That changed to Clonakilty, which has had a profound impact on women and their families, keeping people in very dangerous situations. Ms Mulholland raised the need for domestic violence leave to be taken over a staggered period, as appointment times, court dates and housing office appointments do not occur in a convenient, consecutive way. Should that be included in the Bill? I ask her to elaborate on the point about flexibility in taking that leave, if she wishes to add to it. If there is time, I will come back in with more questions.

Ms Marie Mulholland

On reading the Bill, I could not tell if the leave referred to was staggered leave, or had to be taken en bloc. Clarity on that would be helpful.

I know I am not a witness but the intention is that it would be taken in the normal way, so that an employee could take a half day's leave or a quarter day's leave. That is why the Bill is an amendment to the Organisation of Working Time Act 1997. Everything has to be done in consultation but it is housed within the Organisation of Working Time Act because it will operate in a similar way to other leave. It has to work for people who are on hourly or weekly contracts.

That is great. There is not then a need to include it in the legislation.

I do not believe there is a need to do so but that does not mean I would be hostile to putting it in. I absolutely would include it if people felt it was necessary. It is already very much implicitly there in the Organisation of Working Time Act. That is how leave operates, in any event, which is why it is there. Employees do not have to take ten days' leave in a block when they might be busy for three days and not busy for seven days. The intention is that they will be able to break leave up and take it accordingly, as they can with other forms of leave covered by the Organisation of Working Time Act. That said, I would welcome discussion on an amendment if it was felt that it was necessary. I do not see it as necessary, but that does not mean I would not be open to making sure that is crystal clear.

Ms Marie Mulholland

Sometimes, if it is not spelled out, there are employers who will deviate from it.

No, I understand. Thank you.

I am interested to hear the view of Vodafone.

Ms Aoife Mulqueen

The way it applies in practical terms in Vodafone is that we apply the ten days and it is just like their normal annual leave and they can book it in the same way as their annual leave. That means that if a new date occurs or another event occurs, they can just use it as they see fit and not ask for permission every single time they need to use it.

Related to the matter raised by Ms Mulholland, Women's Aid highlighted the additional leave to cover exceptional circumstances. It would help us in recommending additional leave if Ms Benson gave us a sense of the kind of time required and the complexities faced by women and children experiencing domestic violence and abuse. Women's Aid also raised a number of points in regard to confidentiality. Ms Benson might expand on the need for guidance to assist employers when developing policies on dealing with that and related matters.

Ms Sarah Benson

With respect to exceptional additional leave, for example, sick leave, some employers will include that within policies and it could equally be included in legislation. It would normally be with the word “may”, and so without obligation, and I do not know whether it will become the rock that we would die on to put it in as “must”. It would be for exceptional circumstances. It could be that somebody has an immaculate sick leave record, for example, but then perhaps contracts a very serious illness, such as cancer or something like that, and there will be a procedure whereby he or she could apply for additional leave in exceptional circumstances, and we think those exceptional circumstances should be generously broad. In effect, as Ms Mulholland rightly stated, depending on the situation, it can be a long or a short journey, and ten days over a 12-month rolling period may be sufficient in order to accommodate somebody. However, they can have particularly protracted court proceedings, for example, around breaches of orders, and we also have situations where the courts themselves are weaponised almost, and that very often centres around custody and access matters and maintenance matters. It is like a war of attrition. If there are exceptional circumstances, we think they should be accommodated.

I quite cheekily put in a lot of appendices to my statement. There are data in there which show that the uptake for both New Zealand and Australia in particular was not huge. Again, it is incredibly hard to disclose. If it involves one in four women, not all of those women will be in employment and not all of them may need recourse to that leave, so that would affect the number we are talking about in terms of the hazard or the risk that an employer might face by going that extra mile to put this in.

This leads me to the Deputy’s second question, which is around confidentiality. It is acknowledged and it is very clear in the Bill as drafted, and we also have data protection obligations on employers. No matter what, there is almost a double-lock with employers already facing legal obligations around confidentiality but we have just identified a couple of circumstances where there needs to be a little more precision. We understand that where it talks about the need to disclose, that could manifest in a couple of ways. First, it might be where there is a line manager and a HR person and they just need to know for the purposes of processing leave, and it is all within that. However, there is a further issue that I added as an appendix and Ms Mulholland also alluded to it. A policy is not just around having paid leave and it can also be around flexible working time and safety planning. There can be exceptional circumstances where an individual poses a threat not just to his or her current or former partner, but also perhaps to other people in the organisation, so perhaps a member of the security staff or someone working in reception may need to be notified that a certain person is not to be on the premises, with that then being bound by confidentiality. There needs to be some explanation of what that might mean to give staff assurance.

We have a policy ourselves in Women's Aid and, similarly, it is allowed to be taken in hours, but we would be very clear in those situations that it is with informed consent of the individual and nothing is done and nobody is told without them knowing and being consulted about it. Generally, it will be in the context of workplace health and safety, not just for the person who is being subjected to the abuse but perhaps other individuals around risk management.

I would say again that these are rare cases but it is good to have them covered so we do not inadvertently have somebody's personal details or information shared, or that there is a chilling effect so they are not sure how their information will be received and, therefore, they will not disclose it at all.

From the employer’s perspective, the Vodafone company already has it in place and was very interested and willing to do it. What sort of guidance would help other employers to make sure they get specifics like that right in order to deal with confidentiality? If the Vodafone representatives could go back and have somebody give them advice, out of interest, what would have been helpful to know in advance?

Ms Aoife Mulqueen

There is a very long list of things. Women's Aid was an amazing partner so we were able to get a lot of its knowledge to equip us with this. One of the most important things, as the Deputy said, is around the privacy and safety of the individual and how we access that. We learned from Women's Aid that one of the core components of a relationship in domestic violence is that the power and control is constantly taken away from the victim, so everything we wanted to do as an employer was to put back that power and control to the individual. For us, in practical terms, that would include certain things. It has happened that somebody has come to me to say they have a domestic violence disclosure on their team. One of the first things we will say is that we do not need to know a name and the only person who needs to know a name is the person who is applying the annual leave to the account of that person. Other than that, we can just have conversations about how to support that individual and the best way for them, and make sure they are in control of everything.

There is a huge list around some of the challenges we have had and ensuring our duty of care to our people managers as they go through this training, which is quite difficult to go through and can be quite emotional in a lot of ways. It was probably the first time we have ever created training where we had to look at the emotional trajectory of the room to make sure that, by the end of the half-day that we put our people managers through, they felt really empowered by the end. We did a survey at the end of every training to ask how they felt about taking a disclosure of domestic violence and 95% said they felt moderately to highly competent in taking a disclosure of domestic violence from an employee, which would not have been the case earlier in the day. That kind of forum was definitely important in helping our understanding as the training went on.

Ms Mernagh mentioned the key role that our senior leaders played. Every single one of our senior leaders attended the training and role-modelled and said that they found this incredibly important. We also could not underestimate how our diversity and inclusion work over the last couple of years has really embedded into the employees. After one or two sessions of our training with Women's Aid, the quality of the training, how people felt coming out of the training and how they felt they had learned something they really did not have before and that they were going to use it, not just in their work lives but in their lives in general, created a buzz that made it incredibly successful. It still is quoted as one of the things that makes people the most proud of working at Vodafone, which is obviously hugely meaningful.

There are also other things that come to the fore, such as people letting us know information through a people manager. There is a person in one our business areas who said they had left an abusive relationship because we were talking about it and because it was part of the conversation. In that situation, that person did not even access the policy or take the leave; it was just the fact that we were talking about it that gave them the strength to move on.

There are many different aspects, with key enablers and challenges that we face throughout. We, as a business, have said that we will talk to anybody who is considering it. There are many tricky bits to learn relating to HR. We are open to having conversations and have never said "No" to a conversation with another business or another HR team that is thinking of implementing this. We want them to know that it is possible. There are no privacy concerns, unlike in other areas. It is beneficial. Did I forget anything?

I have a last point on confidentiality and about rural areas specifically. Research was carried out in west Cork, where West Cork Women Against Violence is located. It transpired that how women in rural areas come to disclose, report or seek help is different to how they do so in more built-up areas, because of how difficult it is to maintain confidentiality in a rural area. Women often went to their general practitioner. They could be going in for a cough or such, so they are safe and no one will know what they are doing. That is one example of how it is different in a rural area, where people may not feel comfortable going straight to Ms Mulholland, but will often go through those other channels. That would certainly apply to people talking to their employers too, since there is a fear of confidentiality being broken. Does Ms Mulholland have any insight into how that might work?

Ms Marie Mulholland

I am listening. I love that Vodafone is willing to talk to other businesses. We might get Ms Mulqueen down to west Cork. Regarding confidentiality, we are mostly dealing with small businesses. There are a couple of big companies in Clonakilty, but employers are mostly involved in the hotel, leisure and tourism industry. They are small, maybe family-run hotels. Being able to tell employers what is going on would be extremely difficult, because not only do they know the employee, they probably know the partner who is the perpetrator too. They may even have connections or be related.

I have a question for Deputy O'Reilly. In order to make this work, would there be penalties for breaching confidentiality?

There are standard penalties, but one would have to go to the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, to vindicate that and to assess the level of damage to the person. If people said they had an illness, the employer would be obliged not to visit the local Centra and gossip about it. That obligation already exists. Not to belabour the point, that is why this is being included in the Organisation of Working Time Act. The intention is that when people have that time off, it is their own business and their own time to avail of leave. It is brilliant that, in all of the discussions on this, nobody has asked what happens if someone takes that leave who is not entitled to it. If that is ever raised, I make every person in the room state whether they would apply for this leave, and everyone I have ever met has said no. That does not arise. People run the risk in the same way as when they go to an employer to say they are going to hospital next week for a procedure. While no disrespect is intended, I note people run the same risk if they go to confession, in that they are making something known. In this case, they are putting their trust in the employer. There are many good employers that will move ahead on this, including National University of Ireland, Galway, Ulster Bank, Vodafone and others. The legislation is necessary for those employers that might need a nudge, though that is not to say they are not good employers.

This discussion is part of the legislative process; it is bringing it out into the open and is reminding people that this is leave. If Ms Murphy is off work because she is having a procedure on her veins, it is only the business of herself, her doctor and anybody else who she wants to tell. For the same reason, if Ms Murphy has to go to court, it is nobody's business. One cannot legislate for people talking to each other over the garden fence with a mouthful of clothes pegs, because that will happen. It would be silly for us to try to legislate for that. We have tried to include it with the leave that already exists, building on the practice that people in HR, the unions and the representative organisations have to follow. People are only as good as their reputation and they will not last long in HR or as a representative if they have a reputation for gossiping. This builds on confidentiality which has been developed over years and is how HR should work, although it is not how it has always worked. Penalties already exist for other forms of leave and related confidentiality issues. All employers have obligations relating to GDPR, whether they are large multinational corporations or two-person operations.

I thank the witnesses. I am fully supportive of paid leave for employees who are victims of domestic violence. Over the last two years, during the pandemic, we have seen a significant increase, which has been an eye-opener. We have to be mindful that men, too, can be in that situation, as colleagues and I see. The witnesses spoke of many barriers, including rural transport, housing, counselling and support. We have a long way to go, but this is a good start. The Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth has started an examination of what supports exist. One relates to changes to the social protection rent supplement to help victims. It is a start, but we have a long way to go. Carlow has no refuge, which is a disaster. We have been working on it with the Minister, because every county needs a women's refuge.

We are lucky to have Amber in Kilkenny, which does great work. Amber recently produced research on the impact of domestic abuse on the workplace in 2021. Two hundred women and men who worked outside the home in Carlow and Kilkenny were surveyed. Some 21% had physical threats made against them by their abuser while at work. Some 46% said they are physically and emotionally unwell and exhausted as a result of the abuse. Some 66% said the abuse negatively impacted their work performance. Some 69% did not disclose the abuse to their employer, manager or co-workers, which is another concern. Some 12% of the respondents who made a disclosure of domestic abuse said their employer or manager was not that helpful. Some 52% of the respondents said they did not have personal experience of domestic abuse, but witnessed the effects of a colleague's domestic abuse while at work. It is crucial that we consider these staggering figures.

We spoke about a duty of care. It is hard for women in that position. People can be very private. We meet people every day and we might not even know that they are in such a situation. It is important to legislate to give women a chance to get this leave and I support it.

The conversation with employers has been mentioned. Do the witnesses feel there is a change in this regard? Has Covid led to a change? Over the years, things have been hidden and people may not have known how others were affected. Can we see that change in society? I compliment Vodafone on its policies. Its representatives constantly referred to its policies. Where did its excellent policies originate from? Did they arise from surveys of the company? Did it see other companies doing this? We need to consider policies and Vodafone's policies have been game-changing. I compliment Vodafone on that.

It is a worry that one in four women are impacted. I see it in my area where we have no refuge. The local authority closes at 5 p.m. on Friday and there are no supports on Saturday or Sunday. Where do people go? People stay in a situation because they have nowhere to go. There are so many issues. This is a good change. We have many more changes to make. I compliment all of the witnesses and I say well done. This will be so important. It is a start and we have many more changes to make. Many of my questions were already asked. The women got to them before me.

Ms Julie Mernagh

I will respond on the first point on whether employers are taking a stance on this and Ms Mulqueen might speak about 2019 and how the policy originated. When we first introduced the policy in 2019 we were unique. We were the first company in Ireland to do so. Since then 27 other Vodafone markets have introduced the policy globally. It certainly snowballed from there. When we introduced it we were unique but we have certainly seen it ramp up in the past 18 months. In recent months we have been inundated with requests from other organisations and representative groups, such as that of insurance bodies, asking us to present, perhaps in partnership with Women's Aid or the Rape Crisis Centre, to open up the conversation. The death of Ashling Murphy has triggered a bigger conversation about this. We are seeing an increase in requests for us to share our story. This certainly amplified over the past six months and during the pandemic.

The question we ask ourselves is how quickly we are taking action and whether we are taking it quickly enough. Banks are stepping forward to try to do this. Are we going at the pace we should be going at? I hope that when the legislation is enacted it will provide the mandate or commitment that all employers need to step up. In Vodafone we believe this is fundamentally part of our employees' lives. We have a responsibility to care about our employees not only in work but also in their personal lives outside of work and making sure we support them in the tough times as well as the good times. We are seeing this increase. Ms Mulqueen will discuss the policy in 2019.

Ms Aoife Mulqueen

To build on what Ms Mernagh has said, one of the key reports HR people look forward to every year is the Deloitte human capital trends report. Something it sees as a priority for businesses is more human-centred work. This falls in line with much of the talk around our policies and ensuring people are taken care of.

To go back to 2019 when we first introduced the policy, a huge amount of groundwork was done. Many businesses I have spoken to ask about how we got approval from our board of directors and how we got it to think of this as a priority in order that we got the opportunity to introduce the policy. Something that was very helpful for us was the fact we had been working on diversity and inclusion, including gender. We have 52% female representation in our leadership across the business at present. This is not something that happened overnight. It is something we worked on for approximately ten years. We have consistent maintenance of the messaging on diversity and inclusion and the importance it brings to us. We have employee resource groups, such as the women's network and the LGBT network. We also have a diversability network. We also have multicultural and mental health themes. There is a lot going on in our world of diversity and inclusion in the workplace. While I will not say it was easy, laying this groundwork over time made it a very natural progression for us. When it came to proposing it and getting sign-off from our leadership team it was incredibly smooth because of the fact we had been building this case for so long. We no longer talk about the business case for diversity and inclusion in Vodafone because everybody understands it is core to who we are. It is part of being a purpose-based organisation.

Ms Sarah Benson

From the point of view of Women's Aid, there is a similar trajectory. We have employed a dedicated project lead specifically to deal with a service offering. We consult on policies. We also have model policies that build on the collaborative work we have done with Vodafone and in initiatives in the UK, such as the employer's initiative on domestic abuse. Through my discussions with senior people in a wide range of companies I found that over the course of the Covid pandemic, several things became more visible. One is that when people were working at home employers started to see their employees being interfered with, where somebody was persistently disrupting them by doing things like plugging out the Wi-Fi. In some cases it made it visible that their home was not a good workplace but neither was it a good home life. While there are no deep data on the reasons that employee assistance programmes have been taken up in recent years, domestic violence does feature as something for which employees have sought support. These are people in work who are seeking the therapeutic aspect of an employee assistance programme. However, it does not give them options in the context of their workplace.

I very much echo what Ms Mernagh and Ms Mulqueen have said. There is a normative impact of any legislation. There are those who will just do it anyway and there are also those who will say it is something the State is taking seriously but is being pragmatic about and is situating it as a practical resource and support in the same way as other workplace entitlement and initiatives. Employers will follow. Some who never thought of it before will say it makes sense. Others will not be as eager. Once there is legislative statutory leave, employers must then create a policy for it to sit within. This also speaks to the discussion on confidentiality. We know it is exceptionally difficult for a survivor of any kind of abuse, such as childhood abuse, to be the one who has to offer it up. Ms Graham spoke about it. If people do not know what the reaction will be and what the response will be, they will not say something. If they have an employer who circulates, even in a desultory manner, a new policy on the leave and it states people are guaranteed confidentiality it is a commitment from an employer, however enthusiastic or not, that will give an assurance. All of these things lock together.

Ms Allison Graham

The biggest challenge will be with smaller organisations and employers, urban or rural. It will be those with fewer than ten employees. As it is, they struggle with having proper policies in place with regard to employee handbooks and existing leave. This will be the big challenge. There seems to be good buy-in from bigger multinationals doing the right thing and taking the lead from Vodafone. The small companies will be the big challenge for sure.

It is often the case that people want to do the right thing but they do not know how, in particular in smaller communities where people tend to know one another. Sometimes in these situations employers do not realise some of their obligations. Potentially this could be an issue.

Ms Marie Mulholland

Prior to Covid, I attended a meeting of employers. There is a HR company that looks after smaller employers and we were attending meetings for updates. I was shocked at the number of employers who did not know they were supposed to give their employees contracts. Where do we start if employees do not even have contracts of employment? This is what we are working with. This is the level. I do not think it is out of vindictiveness.

It is just a lack of knowledge and a lack of confidence about being an employer or a lack of training around being an employer. A person sets up a small business for something that he or she is passionate about, people come to help out and are paid a wage, and the person thinks that is the end of the obligation to the workers, when actually it is so much more than that. I often believe that domestic violence services are a bit like trade unions in that people only come looking for us when they need us. I have often felt there is a similarity between the two types of agencies. This is an interesting one because here we are: we need trade unions and we need domestic violence services on this one. This is what makes the Bill so potent; it is because it is looking at the life force of all businesses, which is the workers. It is about protecting those workers. How long have we fought to get women into employment? I note Vodafone has 52% of women in leadership. I took that down. The Bill protects all of the small gains that we have made and makes it more possible in the future for women to stay in employment. That has got to be a plus.

Does the Deputy have anything else to ask?

No. I thank Ms Mulholland.

I do not have too many questions myself because most aspects have been covered. Ms Mulqueen said that after one year of training, someone left an abusive relationship. It is very important, even today, to have the discussion, to talk about it, to raise awareness and for people to identify with this. If there is no physical violence but there is abuse, people do not always see that they are in this situation and they can often be the very last person to see it. It was a good point to make and it is good to hear that people are seeing and identifying with that.

Reference was made to the rural aspect and this was excellent. As Deputy Cairns has said, and as Deputy Murnane O'Connor will also know, it is often the case that in a rural constituency transport is an issue in respect of how a person gets to all of these services, and this is before you even factor in childcare or anything else. We all know - and it is nearly all women in the room - that for a woman to have her own power, she needs to be able to earn her own money. I remember a teacher who taught civics, which I believe has changed now to civic, social and political education, CSPE. I went to an all-girl secondary school and this teacher was always adamant about it and always said to us to keep our foot in the door somewhere, even if we were only part-time. She said that we had to have our own financial independence. This may have come from something that happened in her own life but it always stayed with me for the whole of my life. It is so important for us as women to be able to have that financial control. If you get to a stage where work is getting difficult it is not just about taking time off for appointments, it is also about how you cope and face going into work. That ten days is vital. This has been a really good discussion. Does anyone want to ask anything else or making any additional points?

Having had this discussion today with the witnesses, I have found it to be really useful and beneficial. I now cannot think of a single, solitary reason to delay this.

Ms Sarah Benson

Speaking to the point made by Ms Mulholland around the issue of employers knowing, quite often at the point of implementation of legislation the Government will also commit resources. They will not just legislate, they will commit resources to an awareness-raising campaign. That does not have to be a break-the-bank thing. It could also incorporate using Skillnet if one is going to target small companies. If that does happen, probably centralised in that will be the reminder that this, similar to all other domestic violence services, DVS, is confidential and must be treated as such. This is just a suggestion for consideration.

That is in the International Labour Organization, ILO, conventions as well, as Ms Benson will know. It is an information campaign. It is not enough to have the legislation and nobody knowing about it. All the leave in the world would be grand if you never knew you had the right to take it.

Are there any other concluding remarks the witnesses would like to make before we finish up? No.

I thank everyone very sincerely and hopefully I would like to see other employers take the lead from Vodafone. There are also a lot of interesting things happening there around leave for surrogacy. I took note of the women in leadership, on which we would also commend the company, as well as other employers that are doing similar work.

I thank all of our witnesses. We must get agreement now to publish the opening statements to the Oireachtas website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.35 p.m. sine die.
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