Joint Committee on Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth debate -
Tuesday, 17 May 2022

Ukrainian Crisis: Discussion

Chairman

Senators Tom Clonan and Lynn Ruane have sent their apologies. The agenda item for consideration is the response from the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth to the Ukrainian crisis. The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, and his officials will take part in our first session, while representatives from the Irish Red Cross will appear in our second session. The officials joining the Minister are: Mr. Kevin McCarthy, Secretary General; Ms Sheenagh Rooney, assistant secretary general; Ms Carol Baxter, assistant secretary general; Ms Lara Hynes, assistant secretary general; and Ms Hilda Ó Riain, principal officer. They are all very welcome. I thank them very much for being here.

I will go through the usual housekeeping measures. At this stage, everyone understands personal responsibility in relation to Covid-19. We advise anyone joining us through MS Teams that the chat function is only to be used to make us aware of any technical issues or urgent matters that may arise and should not be used to make any general comments or statements during the meeting.

For witnesses who are participating in the committee room-----

(Interruptions).

Chairman

There was a little feedback but I think we are okay now.

Those who are participating in the committee room are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

I also remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in the meeting. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement and, therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members participating via MS Teams that, prior to making their contribution, they confirm they are on the grounds of Leinster House. That completes all the housekeeping matters.

We will go to the Minister for his opening statement. We will then have some questions and answers from members.

Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Deputy Roderic O'Gorman)

I thank the committee for the opportunity for me and officials from my Department to come before it to speak about the role our Department has played in the response to the crisis in Ukraine. Ireland and the Government continue to condemn the invasion of Ukraine in the strongest possible terms. We reiterate our commitment to offer humanitarian assistance, safety and shelter to those forced to flee their homeland and seek refuge here. Since the outbreak of the war in Ukraine on 24 February, and the invoking of the temporary protection directive by the European Union shortly afterwards, my Department has worked intensively as part of the cross-governmental response to the Ukraine crisis.

Our country has never experienced an influx of refugees like that we have seen over the past three months. We are receiving this influx at a time when our own housing crisis is severe and when more than 10,000 people are in direct provision, which is a system, as we know, the Government is working to end. My Department’s role is focused on the immediate accommodation needs of those who have fled here. To date, slightly more than 30,000 people have arrived in Ireland and just in excess of 21,000 of those have sought accommodation from the State. The accommodation being provided is temporary in nature and is focused on the emergency need to provide shelter. I have acknowledged throughout, at any time when I have spoken about our accommodation provision, that much of the accommodation is not perfect and involves a degree of congregated living. In the short to medium term, some of this will have to continue.

Local authorities have stood up emergency accommodation locations throughout the country on request. The majority of immediate accommodation allocated at this time is in emergency accommodation. The temporary nature of emergency accommodation can involve a number of moves for those involved, which is a logistical challenge for our Department. I also recognise that this is not what we would like for those fleeing here. We do not like having to move people on a number of occasions but it is unavoidable due to the need to secure accommodation where we can. This need to move people is far from ideal. We would prefer not to add to the stress they are already experiencing but it is an element and by-product of this unprecedented crisis we are facing.

We established a Ukraine unit within my Department comprising more than 80 staff, the vast majority of whom are from the Department but there are also others who moved in from elsewhere and a number of individuals seconded from other Departments and agencies. I take this opportunity to recognise the amazing work of the staff of my Department, both the management team present who have done a significant amount of work in providing accommodation for so many people in such a short period and officials throughout my Department, many of whom have volunteered in their own time, at night and on weekends, to work in the welcome centre in Citywest to provide that immediate welcome to Ukrainians as they arrive here. I express my deep gratitude to everyone across my Department.

We have contracted approximately 16,500 beds in hotels, guest houses, bed and breakfast establishments, hostels, commercial self-catering accommodation and some other repurposed settings, with additional capacity also being pursued through Airbnb, accommodation pledged by the public, State-owned or private properties suitable for short-term accommodation, accommodation belonging to voluntary bodies, religious properties, local authority facilities, holiday homes, large rest centres such as Millstreet, and student accommodation. In sourcing and securing accommodation, the central consideration is the immediate safety and security of displaced people fleeing Ukraine.

I am conscious that there has been increased focus in recent weeks on pledged accommodation. People across Ireland have opened up their homes to those fleeing the conflict in Ukraine. The Government is particularly appreciative of this offer of solidarity from people across the country.

Over 25,000 pledges were made to the Irish Red Cross. To date, this has resulted in 3,471 assumed vacant properties and 6,700 assumed shared properties, which are being progressed by the Department and implementing partners. This is a process that has been slower than I would have liked, but moving people to vacant or shared accommodation needs to be done right, with consideration for the people involved. That process takes time. To date, just short of 900 people have been placed in 311 properties nationwide. Pledges have also been activated privately. The Department is providing considerable support to the Irish Red Cross to advance this project.

As the committee will be aware, earlier today the Government agreed a recognition payment of €400 per month for families who had pledged accommodation, be it shared or vacant. If members wish to learn more about the payment, I will be happy to discuss it later

The early years division in my Department has taken responsibility for a number of actions supporting Ukrainian parents and children, allowing them to access preschool and ensuring children's well-being. These actions have included the development and translation of introductory information on the Irish early learning and care sector. A capacity analysis across the country identified vacant preschool places and work is ongoing to match children to the vacant places and to create additional early childhood care and education, ECCE, places, where possible, in areas of high demand. Information on the access and inclusion model for children with disabilities accessing preschool has been translated into Ukrainian and Russian.

There is an issue with the national childcare scheme, NCS, which I flagged on Report Stage of an earlier Bill. We sought to have that addressed in legislation the Department of Justice is introducing. We had originally proposed to it in the guardian ad litem, GAL, legislation but as the justice Bill in question will move more quickly, we will seek to have the issue with the NCS addressed in that legislation.

As a country, we have responded well to the call to support the effort in easing the burden for those relocating to Ireland from the conflict in Ukraine, and we will continue to do so as best we can. We all hope for an end to the war as soon as possible. In the meantime, we will provide all the supports we can to displaced persons living here.

It has not been easy to scale up services to this level in such a short period of time. I acknowledge that elements of the response have been imperfect but these opportunities to discuss the issues are beneficial. I have been travelling around the country in recent weeks speaking to representatives of community groups, family resource centres and youth services as well as those who are on the front line of this engagement. These opportunities have been beneficial to me and have allowed me to influence the conduct and actions of my Department and other Departments, recognising that this response is undertaken through all Departments.

Last Thursday, we had a useful meeting of the Cabinet committee on Ukraine at which we discussed the issue of pledges, the wider accommodation needs and the recognition payment that was passed at Cabinet today.

I thank everybody in my Department, other Departments and Government agencies for all the work that has been done. In particular, I thank the community groups around the country that have done so much, individually and collectively, to welcome Ukrainians to our country.

Chairman

I thank the Minister. We will move to questions. I call Deputy Ward.

Deputy Mark Ward

I did not expect to be first. I thank the Minister and his staff for attending.

I add my voice to those condemning the invasion of Ukraine by Russia. It is heartbreaking to see some of the images and listening to some of the stories of people who are arriving on our shores.

I acknowledge the work of the Minister and his Department in handling this issue so far. It is, as he said, a very difficult situation, one which we did not expect to see this time last year. I commend the Minister and his staff on the work they have done so far. It is a difficult undertaking.

The Minister mentioned that his Department is focused on housing needs. As my party's spokesperson on mental health, I will speak on the mental health needs of people arriving in the country, especially the psychosocial disabilities that are associated with displaced people.

Until recently, Ukrainian people like most people here were living a normal life. All of a sudden, their normal lives were ripped away from them. Their schools, jobs, security and everything they know changed overnight. One of the biggest difficulties I have been hearing about is the separation of families. Mothers and children coming over here have left loved ones behind, particularly husbands or older sons who must stay back and fight for the cause. Another element is that many elderly people are not able to make the arduous journey across borders to flee to freedom. These people are fleeing a war-torn country, which is a traumatic experience for anybody to endure.

As I highlighted previously in the Dáil, research has shown that people who experience displacement and war can suffer post-traumatic stress disorder. Children are particularly vulnerable. On a recent news report, a mother spoke about trying to shield her son and daughter from shelling and how she told them that everything would be alright. She was doing what any parent would. The natural instinct of parents is to make sure their children are alright. Notwithstanding how much the parent tried to shield her children from the horrible things going on outside, it was very difficult for the children. My concern is that post-traumatic stress does not always manifest itself straightaway. It can come later in life, whether one month or six months down the line. When people arrive on these shores it is easy to identify physical health issues and people are then directed to the appropriate services. It is not always the same when it comes to mental health, however. What mental health supports are in place? Are they available in the temporary accommodation? Can people speak to someone and, if so, are the services culturally appropriate? The Minister mentioned language needs of children with a disability who are going to early childhood education places. Those are my first questions.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

I thank Deputy Ward for his comments and recognition of the work done by staff in my Department. I agree with everything he said. The impact of this war will be felt by individual Ukrainians in different ways, in different circumstances and at different times.

In terms of the health services we have in place for Ukrainians, when they arrive in the Citywest welcome centre there is a HSE presence there. All Ukrainians are screened at that stage. We have had cases of people arriving with injuries or very significant conditions. Deputy Ward alluded to the fact that mental health issues do not necessarily manifest at this stage. We have the opportunity at that point to identify if someone is in a particularly difficult situation and we can signpost services, be it for mental health or a chronic health condition. Ukrainians are also entitled to the medical card and are able to access the healthcare services on the same basis as anybody else in the State. We all recognise the pressure our existing mental health supports are under at present.

What we are doing in terms of the community fora - the local organisations at local authority level - is bringing in the statutory services, such as Tusla and the HSE, and using those fora to link services to centres in the particular local authority. For example, Tusla or Tusla-funded organisations such as family resources centres, many of which, as the Deputy will be aware, have a dedicated counselling budget, have been able to link in and support Ukrainians. There is the initial health screening and then the linking in of statutory and community and voluntary services to reception centres via the community fora.

Deputy Mark Ward

I am familiar with Citywest. It is in my constituency, as is the Red Cow, and I have met families in both places. One of the concerns I have is that the accommodation in Citywest seems to be temporary. People are going there first before being moved to more secure, permanent accommodation elsewhere.

Are they followed up on when they go into more secure accommodation or are they left on their own? My concern is that they could be left on their own without getting appropriate care.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

I understand that if particular issues have been flagged by the HSE at Citywest, those issues are addressed. There have been situations where people have been undergoing cancer treatment in Ukraine and they are accommodated in a location near a major hospital where they can continue to get that treatment. If an issue has not been flagged, there is no way to move it forward. If an issue manifests subsequently in other accommodation, there is a process in community forums to link people with statutory or community and voluntary services in that area.

Deputy Holly Cairns

It is important to acknowledge the incredible response of the Irish people to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. The outpouring of solidarity and assistance has been incredible. Within a short time, Ukrainian refugees have established themselves in communities, with children enriching our local schools and adults helping to address staff shortages. I recognise the immediacy of the Government's response to the situation and the role of the Minister and his Department in this. The speed and scale of the response is admirable. It shows what is possible when the Government decides to act. Fair play to all in the Department.

Why is the reaction to this crisis so different from that to the conflicts in Syria and Afghanistan when families were also fleeing violence? The Tánaiste said it is a difference that is only natural, since Ukraine is in Ireland's neighbourhood. Does the Minister agree with the Tánaiste? What is his explanation for the difference in approach? Non-governmental areas involved in asylum and refugee support have expressed concern about the emergence of a two-tier system. I mentioned that Ukrainians can take up work immediately, while people in the asylum system have to wait for months. People from Ukraine, even if they are living in hotels and hostels, have access to full social protection allowances, while other protection applicants get the much lower direct provision allowance. Many people in the international protection process wait months for a temporary residence certificate to be issued, whereas people from Ukraine get an expedited personal public service number, PPSN, without the need for a temporary protection letter. It is important to note that the temporary residence certificate is a crucial document because it is necessary to get a PPSN, a medical card and the daily expenses allowance. These delays prevent access to education and work. They force people to live in poverty for weeks and months.

Some of the points I raised relate to other Departments, such as the Department of Social Protection, but as the co-ordinating Minister, what does he think about the emergence of what NGOs call a two-tier system? Now that we have seen what we can do, will the changes afforded to Ukrainian refugees be extended to all people in the international protection process? What is the Minister doing to address delays in accessing temporary residence certificates?

Chairman

I understand where the questions are coming from, but the topic of the meeting is specific to Ukraine rather than the wider situation with direct provision and such. The Minister can respond if he wishes but it is not the topic for discussion today.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

I thank Deputy Cairns and acknowledge what the Chair said. The Government is working according to the temporary protection directive, which is an EU directive that directs all 27 member states on how to respond to the Ukraine crisis. It is a directive that I am comfortable working with. It extends significant rights to Ukrainian displaced persons when they come to this country. It enables them to better integrate into society and to take up employment rapidly by being able to engage in the wider sphere. The reason for having a temporary protection directive in the first place is well beyond my pay grade. We have to recognise that people displaced by this war immediately enter the European Union. They do not flee through two, three or four countries, but immediately leave Ukraine and enter Poland, Hungary, Slovakia or Romania. Millions have already made that journey. I imagine that is the basis behind the construction of the temporary protection directive a number of years ago and why the treatment of people fleeing a crisis immediately on our borders was seen by the European Union as being different from the treatment of people fleeing a crisis at some geographical distance.

It is important to recall our response to the two other crises the Deputy mentioned in Afghanistan and Syria. Since the Syrian crisis broke out, just 3,500 Syrian refugees have been relocated to Ireland as part of the Irish refugee protection programme 1 and 2 and they have settled in communities all over the country. Some of that was done through community sponsorship, which I am sure the Deputy is familiar with. It involves amazing community groups coming together to support families. They provide accommodation and support. As we all know, the house itself is not enough. The links to the community are important. Last November, I had the opportunity to go to Jordan, which hosts almost 2 million Syrian refugees, with 20% of its population being refugees. I visited the Zaatari refugee camp there and met a number of Syrian refugees who will be located in Ireland. We have active missions. Later this month, approximately 80 Syrian refugees will come from Lebanon to Ireland.

Following the Afghan crisis last year, we provided refugee accommodation for 600 refugees. They are not going through international protection. They are people who have refugee status and all the benefits that flow from that. Whereas the response to the Syrian conflict was part of a co-ordinated EU response, the response to Afghanistan was really Ireland standing on its own, because the international response to the crisis in Afghanistan was not good. Six hundred is a small number compared with the scale of what happened in Afghanistan. They are people who were particularly vulnerable, including female judges, human rights defenders and members of the LGBTQI+ community, who were at particular risk from the attack of the Taliban.

Our response to other refugee crises has been generous. As the Deputy knows, the issue of international protection and those who do not have status and come here seeking it is one the Government is addressing through a White Paper and changes to the application system to make it go faster so people can get an adjudication on their claim more quickly. While they are waiting for that adjudication, they require improvements to their housing and ability to integrate.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I thank the Minister and the witnesses. I followed the earlier part of the debate from my office. I will start where Deputy Cairns left off. It is a valid point. I come from Meelick, County Clare, where, since 1956, we have intermittently had refugees. I grew up with them and befriended them. When I was a primary school teacher, I taught them in my classroom. I went to court with some of them when they were fighting against deportation. They asked a question that I cannot answer, about why they had to put up with between 12 and 14 years in direct provision, with just a little curtain between them and another family at night. They asked why they were deprived of all these supports. I do not have the answers. I do not for a moment want to diminish what the Minister's Department and team, International Protection and Accommodation Services, and all the agencies are doing for Ukrainians. The right things are being done but there are questions to ask. This forum, today, is probably not the place to address it, but Deputy Cairns is correct to raise it and I wish to put on record that there is no answer to those questions.

Some 250,000 children go missing in Europe every year, yet the media chooses one or two children, whom I will not name, to put in the spotlight. There is a media and public frenzy, with outrage and outcry about one or two children who go missing, but thousands more just disappear. That analogy could also apply to a war. I grew up with many people from the Democratic Republic of Congo, who experienced war, murder, rape and burnt villages. They say that what they endured before they fled to Ireland was comparable or perhaps worse than what happened in Ukraine. How are we to know that?

It is not a matter of par for par. We need to look at this, going forward. That is not to take away from the response to the Ukrainian crisis. I will ask a few questions now that I have made that point.

There is an acute need in Ireland. Some 2% of the entire population of Clare is Ukrainian, as will be reflected in the April census. That is a fact. There are more Ukrainian refugees in Clare than in any other county in Ireland, including the capital, I understand. Clare is at capacity. All agencies have attended to meet the refugees but we are without a co-ordinating person. There is no translation service. There is no pastoral care in the school context. I know the Minister has a lot of involvement with Tusla. There is a struggle in the school context to provide pastoral care and a home link. There are people in the Ukrainian community with the language skill set required. We need to appoint translators to provide a pastoral link to home, school and the community. There is a need for co-ordinators.

It is right to say the arms of Ireland are wide open. If people come to our country, we will wrap our arms around them, care for and protect them. However, there is a capacity issue. Lisdoonvarna, County Clare, began 2022 with a population of 300 people. It now has a population of 1,300 people. It is right to welcome those people but it is wrong to funnel 1,000 people through a system that does not have the requisite public transport capacity, education capacity or public healthcare capacity. There has not been a wider view of how this can be catered for. There are few refugees in the capital. They are being sent to scenic tourism towns in the west of Ireland, where there is seasonal accommodation and hotels. They are being funnelled through that accommodation system. These areas look beautiful. They are lovely in May and June. However, they do not meet the needs of refugees. These places are crumbling. This needs to be looked holistically.

The International Protection Accommodation Service, IPAS, is the co-ordinating body but we cannot reach its representatives. I think that organisation is under the Department of Justice but even though I have asked if that is the case, it has not confirmed that. Its representatives are impossible to get in touch with. When the proverbial hits the fan, people get onto their local politicians and we have no one to turn to in Clare. We are trying to find solutions and fix problems that are so complex we cannot get around them. IPAS is not to be found. We need the Minister to intervene in that regard to ensure it has a presence on the ground.

Chairman

Before the Minister responds to the Deputy, I need to say that I understand from where people are coming. The concerns they are raising are valid. However, to be fair, we invited the Minister and his officials with regard to the response to the Ukrainian crisis. When witnesses are invited before the committee, they are given an agenda item. We sometimes stray a little but, to be fair, this discussion is not about the wider debate. A lot of that will fall to this committee and we can certainly schedule meetings on those topics. However, to be fair to the Minister, he is here to discuss the response to the Ukrainian crisis. I am not taking away from anything anybody has said. I do not necessarily disagree with what has been said. However, we must be fair. The Minister and his officials have given of their time to be here this afternoon to discuss the situation.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

I will try to address Deputy Cathal Crowe's points. He spoke to a wider point at the start. The difference in treatment is because of the temporary protection directive. We, along with all EU member states, have been directed to give these particular rights to Ukrainians. That may be a convincing or an unconvincing reason but it is the reason. That is what the Government is working under.

I had the privilege to journey to Clare a number of weeks ago to see at first-hand the amazing work that is being done in Lisdoonvarna, the family resource centre in Ennistymon and in Ennis. There is a substantial number of Ukrainians in Clare. There are substantial numbers of Ukrainians in other parts of the country, including Dublin, to put that on the record. I understand the impact the influx of Ukrainians has had on small towns and villages such as Lisdoonvarna. It has had a substantial impact.

I was incredibly impressed by the strong community solidarity I heard from community groups, welcome groups, family resource centres and schools, at primary and secondary level. I know a call has gone into Tusla for additional supports for family resource centres in Clare. That is a matter I have raised at the leadership level of Tusla. I have emphasised that in places where there are a significant number of Ukrainian displaced persons, there are particular calls on the resources of community and voluntary organisations such as family resource centres. In many parts of the country, they are a central element of the response. Tusla is aware of that at management level. I have informed Tusla that there will be additional resource requirements on a once-off basis. Those requirements should be met.

The Deputy asked about communication. I know IPAS has a helpline or an information line that I will ensure all Deputies are aware of.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I was recently told IPAS does not want us to have its number.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

There is a specific helpline with which the Deputy can get in touch. If there is a particular problem, the Deputy can always contact me and I will do my best to get past whatever bottleneck he or other Deputies are experiencing.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I thank the Minister.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

There will be times, throughout all of our response to the situation, when problems will arise. Working co-operatively, I believe we can surmount them.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I thank the Minister. If the shoe was on the other foot and the Minister and I were fleeing a war situation in Ireland and fled to Ukraine, I do not think I would want to be put up in a beauty spot on a green hillside or in a place where beautiful waves crash up against the shore. I would want to be put in a place that ticks more than the box of having a roof over my head. I would need a place that could meet my family's education, transport and health needs. That is not the strategy in Ireland at the moment. The strategy is to take people in, welcome them and look after them. That message is great and positive, and we do not want to take from that, but those people are being sent to scenic beauty spots, which is fine in May 2022 but it will be a different story come the autumn. Schools in rural parts of Clare with 23 pupils now have 60 pupils. The public healthcare system is incapable of meeting those people's needs. People are traipsing along the road day and night in high-visibility jackets because there is no bus passing their doors. I am in the city two or three days a week and do not see such people in the cities or larger towns of Ireland which have the capacity to care for them. This cannot all be funnelled through Ireland's beauty spots and seasonal hotels. I am not blaming the Minister because I know this is a European directive. The Minister is doing his damnedest. The strategy is the issue. IPAS is offered accommodation of 120 beds in a hotel and it snaps up that offer. No one is looking at the ancillary services, pastoral care and support these people require. None of that is being properly considered. It will not haunt us now but it will haunt us in the months ahead. We need a more holistic, nationwide response. We should not be funnelling everyone to Ireland's beauty spots.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

I am not trying to be trite in any way and I hear what the Deputy is saying but we are in a European war right now. This is not normality in any context. We are responding to a European war that, as one Deputy said, we did not expect to be dealing with last year. We did not expect to dealing with this on 14 February this year. Our response has had to be an emergency response. It is the right thing to give people shelter and security when they arrive here. The medium-term accommodation of many Ukrainians will not be provided in the areas they are right now. It will not be in hotel accommodation. That is good, in one way, because we hope we will be able to provide them with accommodation that is more suited to longer term living than a hotel, which is not suited to longer term living. That approach also has its disadvantage because people will have to be moved from where they are now.

Two hotels in my constituency of Dublin West are housing Ukrainian displaced persons. They are in all parts of the country although I recognise there is a very large number in Clare. I also recognise that there is pressure on services there. We will work with those services. I know the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, has been working on issues to do with rural transport. He is aiming to bring forward improvements to Local Link that were going to happen anyway. He is also looking to provide a bespoke public transport service to reception centres in very rural areas.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I thank the Minister for his time.

Chairman

It looks as if Deputy Dillon is on the grounds of Leinster House. I ask him to confirm that.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I am in Leinster House. I welcome our guests. I commend the work the Government has done to date in accommodating and welcoming people from Ukraine. I also want to acknowledge the Secretary General and the officials from the Department. First on the accommodation available through local authorities, religious organisations, State bodies and pledged accommodation, in the event that it is difficult to meet the level of need should the higher estimate of people arriving come to pass, what is the strategy to engage and co-ordinate national and local levels and non-governmental sectors? What options are in place should the numbers arriving exceed the accommodation available? I think that we all understand the current model suggests there is an inevitability of moving into an emergency accommodation phase when pledges and other service supplies are exhausted. Will the Minister update us on this?

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

There is close co-ordination between my Department, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the City and County Management Association, CCMA, which acts as a collective voice for the 31 local authorities. Those three bodies are now meeting regularly on the short-term accommodation work that is going on in my Department. Our engagement with local authorities on that is working in tandem with the work on longer term accommodation being undertaken by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. I will be honest that at the start that three-way relationship was not as smooth or tied down as tightly as we would like but it is now. I think there is very good co-operation there now and a good exchange of information. The local authorities have been really strong in supporting our Department in identifying potential short-term properties, be they hotels or the like, where we can seek to accommodate people. They have been good in helping us in pledged accommodation particularly vacant pledged accommodation.

It is important to point out very clearly that at no time are we seeking to accommodate Ukrainian displaced persons in local authority housing of any sort. That is not happening. I know that there was some misinformation about that some weeks ago but at no stage will we be using local authority housing for the accommodation of Ukrainian displaced persons. That is why their support in identifying buildings, maybe large communal facilities in their area, maybe former institutional buildings which may be refurbished on a temporary basis and used for that medium-term accommodation, and their local knowledge about what may be sourced is so important. They compiled a list which is being worked through by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. I cannot remember the official term but it has brought together a vacant institutions group which is looking at how we can refurbish those institutions. A number of names are out there, including Baggot Street Hospital and St. Ita's in Portrane, which may be considered to provide accommodation for Ukrainians in the medium term. Again, that is not the perfect accommodation that we would like to offer anyone. It is not a three-bed semi or an apartment but it is accommodation of a more permanent nature than hotel-based accommodation.

Deputy Alan Dillon

The reason I raised that is that there is now a golden opportunity as we work with NGOs such as the Irish Red Cross and the Defence Forces and State agencies to evaluate the pledges made with the vacant homes and the opportunity to repurpose them and put them back into use. I would like to hear what discussions the Minister has had with Airbnb and The Open Community regarding temporary accommodation that could be provided around Ireland to those fleeing conflict in Ukraine. We find it difficult to extract information from local authorities to get a clear picture and understanding of what is becoming available in all the counties and the numbers that are being accommodated in each constituency. The communication tools on this for TDs and Senators are non-existent. I would ask that the Minister strengthen communications between the Government and local authorities so that we have a clearer picture of what is happening on the ground.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

I will take that point on the importance of communication on board and reflect on it. It is important. There are lots of Departments and State agencies all acting and we recall from Covid that it can be hard to bring everything together in a digestible format. There are Ukrainians in every constituency around the country but the concentrations of displaced persons are higher in certain parts of the country than others as Deputy Cathal Crowe spoke about earlier.

The Deputy's point about vacant properties is very important. About three weeks ago, the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage brought forward proposals to make it easier to avail of funding to refurbish and rehabilitate vacant properties not necessarily for displaced persons from Ukraine but as part of the effort to generally broaden the supply of housing in the country. He would probably be better placed to go into that initiative in more detail but we did agree on that at Cabinet. With schemes such as Town Centre First, I think everyone agrees that there are large amounts of vacant accommodation in the country and anything we can do to make it available to people is positive.

Chairman

Senator Erin McGreehan was next. We will move to Senator Ned O'Sullivan.

Senator Ned O'Sullivan

I am very glad that the Chair put this subject on the agenda today. It is the first opportunity that we have had to specifically look at what is happening around young people in the Ukrainian situation. I must first acknowledge and compliment the Minister and his team for the outstanding job that they are doing in extraordinarily difficult circumstances. I presume it all looks nice and smooth on the surface but it must impose a huge demand on the Minister, on staff time and so on. They say the first casualty of war is the truth. The second casualty is innocent citizens and civilians. You would wonder if Mr. Putin gave any thought at all to the repercussions of his mad invasion of Ukraine in terms of humanity. That we are living through this in our time is something I never envisaged. But we are, as they say, where we are.

Most of the issues I wanted to raise have been raised. I was glad to hear the Minister clarifying the position about local authority housing. I was getting mixed signals on that. I am sure that the local authority officials and management are stepping up to the mark to assist the Minister in every way they can but it is important that the matter be clarified so I am glad to hear that today.

We have a significant population of people from eastern Europe. Where I live in Kerry it is particularly people from Poland, the Czech Republic, Lithuania and so on. I am sure it is the same around the country. Is that cohort being helpful in any way? Is there any way that they could be brought on board? They would have a lot in common with the Ukrainians. Many might have some language in common. It is something that might be looked at from a practical point of view.

There is huge pressure on education. I know a little about education.

School principals, staff and other parents need to be complimented on the welcoming way in which they are including new students. In fact, we should acknowledge both what is being done in Ireland and the human and Christian way in which we have responded, as we always did and always will. I am proud of that.

My final question is perhaps a little negative. I welcome the €400 payment. It is an important step forward. It will be helpful to certain households to assist them in dealing with rising inflation and costs. How will that be monitored? How will the Minister ensure that the highest standards are adhered to? I have a premonition that this might be a problem down the line. Rather than wait for that to happen, does the Minister have systems in place to monitor all of these things on an ongoing basis in order that we will not be facing tribunals in five years’ time as to what we did or did not do?

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

The Senator is absolutely right in terms of the fantastic support that local authorities have given my Department, and their parent Department, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage in responding to this. That work has put pressure on them, which is why I welcome the moves taken by the Minister, Deputy Darragh O’Brien, to designate a new director of services for Ukraine response in every local authority and to resource that with a number of staff. Giving each local authority a centralised employee to deal with this, as such, will hopefully allow the extra work that has been generated to be dealt with there, rather than interfering by adding more work to the very valuable work that local authorities do.

I cannot speak in detail on the education aspect, other than to recognise that significant additional pressure has been put on schools in certain areas. Principals have done a fantastic job, and schools have been incredibly welcoming to Ukrainian children. The Department of Education has provided additional English-language resources. In some areas, it has provided additional teaching staff. Tusla has put additional staff into its services around educational welfare as well. Again, this is to support the work of linking students to school places. There may not be school places always in the areas where Ukrainians are currently located. More work will have to be done on that over the summer while young people are out of school in order to ensure that children and young people can join schools as seamlessly as possible in September. Obviously, we are expecting all Ukrainian children’s participation in school to be temporary. It is understood that these are temporary measures which are for one year at the moment, under the temporary protection directive. That could be extended, but these are seen as temporary placements in schools; they are not seen as permanent.

The Senator spoke about the response of the significant eastern European community across the country. We have very large Polish, Lithuanian and Romanian communities in my constituency in Dublin West. We have received support from nationality groups, NGOs and charities that already established support. Of course, the small existing Ukrainian community in the country has done a lot and there are thousands of Ukrainians living with family members. The Senator will recall that we are providing accommodation for 21,000 and there are another 10,000 either living on their own means or many of them are living with family and friends from Ukraine, but also, of course, there is high intermingling between Ukrainians and Poles along there border there and family connections would be significant.

The point the Senator made about standards is important. We always have to review standards in the accommodation. We have quality inspectors who we send around if there is an issue that has arisen. When you procure as much accommodation as we had to in as short of a period as possible, mistakes will be made. When they are identified to us and there is an issue, we work to address them as quickly as possible. Issues will come up and we will seek to address them quickly. It is on that basis. Of course, everything done through temporary procurement will have to be officially procured later on.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

That is great. I thank the Minister and his officials for attending. Of the people present today, I have no doubt but that the Minister has done extraordinary work. Behind him are the people who do not get to appear at committees. They also do extraordinary work. We have had and are continuing to have an unprecedented experience.

I will begin by considering how we ensure that Irish people are content to live with the imperfect. There will, of necessity, be an imperfect solution here because of the nature of the emergency and the sudden speed at which people have come among us, and our need to respond to that. How we communicate that is important. At one point, I needed to contact the Minister about an issue arising in our area, where a community centre was to be taken over on very short notice. I found it very refreshing and sobering that his response was that we have to be content with the fact there are going to be responses of this nature that are not perfect. The communication is reiterating that all of the time and continuously saying, for example, that people are going to stay in community centres. We will have to have responses that are far less than ideal, but the fact is that people are fleeing war and we need to keep that to the forefront. One of my activities every morning is to check which page in the paper the Ukrainian war appears on. Sadly, it moves farther and farther away from the front page on a daily basis. I find that quite shocking because there are still people in the midst of horrific conflict in Ukraine.

My questions comes down to being mindful that there are people who have a child or a family member with a disability who is unable to get to the border and, perhaps because of their disability, unable to escape the conflict. There are Irish organisations that have gone over and brought people and families to Ireland. They have done that spontaneously and out of their own experience and personal contacts. As we get to grips with the situation and with the people who are arriving and who are likely to arrive, are we establishing a mechanism of notification of, perhaps, an exit for people with disabilities to allow them to come to Ireland? Do we have appropriate accommodation for them? Are we co-ordinating with disability services across Ireland to elicit support from them in this regard? I am mindful that resources are finite.

We have had a drive towards utilising holiday homes and incentivising their use. They are not relevant in the context of the housing crisis because they were never going to be available. Can we provide further incentives in that regard? I appreciate that this matter is relevant to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

I thank the Senator for her recognition of the work done by the staff across my Department. The point she made in terms of this story moving farther from the front page links in with the point Deputy Cairns made on other conflicts never even making the front page in the first place. The longer conflicts go on or the farther away they are geographically from us, the less prominent they become over time. That is something we have to address and adjust.

The point the Senator made about communication is important. I have been engaging with a number of the NGOs working in this sector. They are coming together in working with the Government in the context of their mirroring certain thematic areas. That is certainly a process I want to work on with them. They have been extremely supportive in all of this.

In terms of disabilities, and particularly children with disabilities, it is anecdotal for the most part, but we know there are children with intellectual disabilities in quite large-scale, almost institutional, accommodation in parts of Ukraine.

This was of significant concern to me in the early days. I have engaged with the Children's Rights Alliance, UNICEF and others and their view is that the large-scale movement of these children over long distances on planes to countries where even the language is unfamiliar is not the right approach.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

I agree with that.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

The best thing to do is to move these children across the borders with neighbouring countries and to provide supports there. With regard to intellectual disability, I am again getting advice from those who know best. If we can support measures in that area in any way, we will. Where people arrive in Ireland who have a disability, whether physical, intellectual or sensory, there is an initial screening with the HSE. We then seek to link such people in with services here.

The Senator alluded to the large-scale movement of groups of people to Ireland. It is always best that notice be provided to statutory bodies in advance of such movements. I refer to the HSE, Tusla, my Department and the Department of Justice. It is always far better that anything like that, such as the chartering of a plane, bus or van, be done in that context. Unaccompanied minors in particular should not be moved across international borders in any circumstances. There has been great generosity and a great desire to do good here. I absolutely recognise that but unaccompanied children should not be moved across international borders. I hope that all organisations interested in and passionate about this area will work with statutory authorities.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

Lest there be any confusion of any sort, none of the organisations I deal with has moved children under any circumstances, although they do work with families. Organisations such as AsIAm have been providing fantastic resources with respect to autism services. How do you communicate a war to children who have profound disabilities, who are living with their families and who have to go to a bunker only to find, when they come out, that their home is gone along with their mobility aids and everything like that? There is a need to get mobility aids to Ukraine as well as to support those families but not those operating on an institutional basis.

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

The Minister has already half-answered my question but I will go back and phrase it differently. The particular situation and vulnerabilities of unaccompanied minors are a matter of concern. I have spoken to people about this and it is a concern. I am aware that Ireland has a best-practice model with regard to providing care for unaccompanied minors, children who are without their guardians or customary caregivers. How has this service been supported to make sure that children arriving from Ukraine on their own get adequate assistance? I was recently asked this by someone who is very much involved with the refugees.

We know that there is a heightened risk of child trafficking during war or migration. What supports are in place to make sure this does not happen in Ireland or that it is quickly picked up on if it does? That is my main question for the Minister. I also have a few questions for his Department. Will I go ahead with them or would the Minister like to answer those first questions?

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

I will come in on those matters quickly. It is a really important question and I thank the Deputy for putting it on the record. Up to this point, 80 unaccompanied minors from Ukraine have been notified to Tusla. Tusla has a presence at Dublin Airport and engages where unaccompanied minors are identified. Of those 80, 35 have subsequently been reunited. Some 55 have been taken into either residential care or foster care. That is not an insignificant number but we believe we have the necessary processes in place. Tusla is there in Dublin Airport from 10 a.m. to 2 a.m. Tusla officials and social workers are aware of things to look out for where an incident of child trafficking is suspected. There is a senior social worker present in Dublin Airport. Tusla can also receive referrals where somebody else has a concern about a relationship with a person arriving in the country.

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

That is good because that question has been asked several times. I am glad we got that clarified. I have one or two questions for the Minister's Department. Many of the children arriving are younger. Many of the parents, often mothers, tell us that they cannot look for work as they do not have childcare supports. As the Minister will know, I am very much involved with our own refugees in Carlow. What is the Department doing to make sure that childcare is provided for children arriving from Ukraine? There is also the matter of the language barrier. I know the Minister has been working on this issue. What additional supports does the Department have in place to help parents to support their children, recognising the awful experience that parents themselves have gone through and their own suffering?

I see it myself. Ukraine's Easter is different from our Easter. It is a week or two after ours. A few weeks back, we had a lovely party in Carlow. I am sure it is the same across the whole of Ireland but in Carlow, where I am working with the community, the social inclusion and community activation programme, Annette Fox and the local authority, the people have really stepped up to the mark. There was a party. One of the people had one of these bangers. It popped, which was our mistake, and you could actually see the fear in the women and the children. It was just one little incident but you could see the effect of it. That is why I was asking myself what supports there would be for these women and children. It is hard and we have to be very mindful of things like that. It has to affect them when their husbands, brothers and fathers are fighting a war. Perhaps the Minister could come back to me with something on that. Again, I will say that the work that is being done is really welcome.

I will ask another question. I was at another event recently. A bus load of people came to Carlow, which was fine. When Ukrainians arrive in Ireland, how is it decided who goes where or what happens from there? There seems to be a bit of confusion. I know in some places a bus can just arrive. Everyone works around it and it is not an issue because the communities and the Department work well but I do not know if there is proper communication to let people know how many are coming in every day or how many are going to a certain area. Does the Minister find that to be the case? Perhaps he could come back to me on that.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

I thank the Deputy. On the issue of childcare, Ukrainian children are entitled to access the early childhood care and education, ECCE, programme, which provides two years of free preschool. Obviously, the number of places available in that scheme varies in different parts of the country. In areas where there is pressure on ECCE services, we work with the city and country childcare committees to identify what supply is available. We encountered a legal problem in allowing Ukrainians access to the national childcare scheme, NCS, which, as the Deputy will know, provides financial support for accessing childcare. That problem will be addressed in forthcoming legislation. The Department of Justice is preparing an omnibus Bill to deal with a number of issues in respect of Ukraine. The recognition payment I spoke about earlier will also be covered in that particular Bill. We hope to have that issue dealt with soon in the coming weeks and that there will then be access to the NCS.

With regard to supports for children, I take on board the points the Deputy is making. Tusla has compiled a list of 116 community contact centres across the country. These are local family support services. They are either services provided directly by Tusla or Tusla-funded services. They are available to support Ukrainian families in that particular area. That is available.

With regard to how we decide who goes where, I will be honest; a lot of depends on the accommodation available that day. I would like to give the Deputy an answer that shows more organisation but that is the reality of the situation. That is often a key factor in determining where people are allocated initial accommodation.

Chairman

I thank the Deputy and the Minister. I also wish to acknowledge the work that has been done by the Minister and his Department. It definitely has not been easy. I am glad that the Minister referenced the €400 payment because there are probably people who have questions about that but who do not wish to ask them because they are not actually looking for the money and do not want to seem like they are. I will ask one or two brief questions about that.

Will the €400 be paid to people who are providing a room for two people and those who are providing a full house? Is there a difference or is there just one €400 payment?

I wish to raise a matter I also raised on the day we were discussing the issue in the Dáil, which relates to people who want to work in the early years sector. We know staff are needed in that sector but those people are coming across an issue with Garda vetting. They have all the relevant qualifications. I am not trying to suggest there should not be Garda vetting; of course there should be. However, can something be done in that regard?

Many schools are taking on Ukrainian children but there is a unique situation in my son's school, which is a Gaelscoil, and which has taken on two Ukrainian students. There are Ukrainian children starting in fourth class in a Gaelscoil. There are obviously many challenges but, at the same time, I love that story because it means total integration of language and cultures. Children are left to be children. The Ukrainian children in question are trying to grapple with both English and Irish but, at the same time, they are absolutely flying it. It is a nicer story. There are lots of mixed stories and experiences out there but I wanted to put that story on the record because I thought it was lovely. One might not have expected that children from Ukraine would start in a Gaelscoil, particularly as we are coming towards the end of the primary school year. That is a good and welcome step. It is what integration should be about. My questions, therefore, relate to childcare, early years workers and the €400 payment.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

That is a lovely illustration of the extent to which communities across the country are coming together to support Ukrainians.

I asked an official about the employment accessibility of the early years sector after the Chairman raised the matter in the Dáil. I received a detailed answer that I forgot to send to her. I apologise for that and will sent it to her today.

The recognition payment is a flat amount of €400 per month. That is the flat fee irrespective of whether one Ukrainian or a number of Ukrainians are staying in a household. It is also irrespective of whether it is shared accommodation or vacant accommodation. Only one amount is available. It is an opt-in scheme. A significant number of people probably do not want to take this payment and feel they are doing this out of solidarity. We also felt it was important to recognise, particularly in the context of cost-of-living pressures, that there are additional costs to someone living in one's house and we wanted to provide this recognition and support. It is contingent on agreeing that the individual or family concerned will live in the household for at least six months. There is a request included that the Ukrainian individual would live with whoever is supplying the accommodation for at least six months. If those Ukrainians are staying for a longer period, the payment will continue for that period.

The payment requires legislation and that will happen in the Bill I mentioned earlier. It will probably be the middle of July before people are able to draw down the payment but it will be backdated to a date set out in the legislation. It will recognise that families and individuals have had Ukrainians living with them prior to that date but it will be the middle or the end of July before the payment is made.

The payment is not taxable and it does not interfere with the allocation of any social welfare benefits. Applicants must have tax clearance and must provide the personal public service numbers of the person claiming the payment and the Ukrainian displaced persons. An Eircode postcode is also required. There will be a penalty in the event of fraud, not that we are expecting it, and that will be provided for in the legislation. I think those are the key pieces of information.

Chairman

I thank the Minister for his response and for being here to answer all of our questions. Is it agreed that we publish the opening statements to the website? Agreed. We will suspend for a few minutes to allow for the commencement of the second session.

Sitting suspended at 4.14 p.m. and resumed at 4.19 p.m.

Chairman

The business for consideration is the response to the crisis in Ukraine. In this session, we are joined by Mr. Liam O'Dwyer, secretary general, and Mr. Pat Carey, chairperson, Irish Red Cross. They are both very welcome. I am delighted they were able to be with us today.

Witnesses who are participating from the committee room are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity.

Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Now we have that out of the way, I ask Mr. Carey and Mr. O'Dwyer to begin.

Mr. Pat Carey

I thank the committee for the invitation. We appreciate the opportunity to present to members. I will hand over to our secretary general, Mr. O'Dwyer. I am prepared to answer any questions, as appropriate, at a later stage.

Mr. Liam O'Dwyer

I have divided the statement into three. There are two short pieces at the start to put some perspective on it for everyone. There are three aspects to the work we are undertaking at the moment. The first is fundraising, which has delivered a huge amount of money - €33 million to date. We are amazed at that. We have a plan for how that is to be distributed. The first €9.2 million has already been sent to Ukraine for use there by the federation of Red Cross groupings and by the International Committee of the Red Cross. Later this week, in fact when we go back to the office, Mr. Carey will be signing a paper to send a further €2 million to the Ukrainian Red Cross and the Polish Red Cross. As well as that, we have committed €3 million for use in Ireland to support the refugees who are here. We are doing that with a voucher scheme. I think we have identified with the Ukrainian community some of the needs around clothes, shoes, hygiene products etc. We are also engaged in a number of community projects, including one with the Ukrainian community itself.

The supports we are offering are largely around the ports and airports where our members are stationed in a welcoming and signposting manner and giving whatever help they can. As Mr. Carey was saying earlier, we were talking to someone who told us that people are stopping because they are in need of petrol or diesel when they arrive at the ports. It is that sort of immediate help to enable people to get to the accommodation that is being provided here. As well as that, we are supporting accommodation needs like furniture, as well as IT equipment and transport, etc. We have set up a community centre with the Ukraine community. It is a joint project together in Vicar Street and that kicked off this week.

The register of pledges database and portal we have is probably of more interest. We were requested by the Government at the very start to activate the register of pledges to provide accommodation. We have been using this database for quite a number of years to support in particular the Syrian community when they came here and later the Afghan community when they came here as well. The database is used to receiving between 200 and 500 offers of accommodation. That is what it is set up to deliver. We were a little shocked at the beginning of March when we suddenly had 6,000 offers overnight. The system crashed and we had to spend a couple of days putting it back together, strengthening it and making it robust enough to deal with the volume that was coming our way, which has ended up at over 25,000 offers or accommodation.

There is also a register of services and goods. We have activated a project in relation to that as well because there are over 3,000 people who have volunteered to help with the Ukrainians coming here. In terms of something that might be useful later on, especially when Ukrainians move into shared accommodation, that is going to be an important piece. To manage the volume of activity, we took on about four or five staff and then we recruited the Defence Forces to help us with our call centre. We also brought in a professional call centre, SalesSense, and a number of voluntary people who were working at tech companies like Amazon, Web Summit and the like. They offered to make some of the initial telephone calls. After all those call centre staff and volunteers were trained, we began to make the calls to the pledgers. We have liaised the whole time with the Department of Children, Equality, Integration, Disability and Youth, which is the lead Department from our point of view. We have a joint controller agreement with it for the database. It is jointly managed and controlled from the point of view of using the data, which is important.

We began with the Defence Forces because they were the most robust when it came to numbers. They had two centres operating and at one stage they had over 40 people making the telephone calls. We focused on the over 6,700 vacant pledges. While they were doing that, the other call centres were looking at the shared pledges and making the initial calls about those. We also asked for support from Engineers Ireland and from the Institute of Professional Auctioneers and Valuers, IPAV. They have generously offered us over 300 engineers and auctioneers to follow up with the property assessments for the vacant pledges. The intention of that was just to be sure the house was adequate and there were no health and safety issues. We were not looking for any massive assessment. We designed the form with the help of Microsoft and TEKenable and we have the form now. It is on the iPhone and can be fed in and fed back then into the database, which has worked very well.

The agreed process was that the Defence Forces operator would call the person who had pledged to verify his or her information. I am constantly asked about pledges by the media. The difficulty with pledges arises because of the IT system. People often do not put in the correct details and they miss parts of it, so you have to go and interrogate it. Some of the delays that have been experienced have involved long telephone conversations to make certain the information in the database is correct and gives us the type of information you can use when you are placing somebody in the property. The idea was that a Defence Forces operator would talk to the each pledger, verify the information and seek his or her permission for an assessor to call. Then the Defence Forces member would call the assessor, put him in touch with the pledger and go on from there. That is how it operated. Our normal process is lengthy and Department officials, to be fair to them, were panicking because they were thinking they had to move on this because there was an urgency about it. They had a really good sense of the urgency and the need to move people in, so they asked us to do the assessments retrospectively and later to wait until all the pledgers of the vacant properties had been called and then to put the assessments in, which is what we have done. The Department then received the initial information from ourselves. It also looked for some additional fields which we put into the system. That gave the Department a better opportunity to place people in accommodation. We had noticed, going back to the veracity of the information in the system, that people had put in their houses as vacant houses but on full interrogation we noticed quite a number of those were actually shared accommodation as well. It is only when you pull it out of the system that you can see that. The work on the shared properties had begun and that was completed two weeks ago with the support of An Post. We brought in the An Post call centre to really drive this home to make certain everyone was called on time and all the initial calls had been made. A number of calls were made two or three times because people were not contactable, but I will come back to that again.

We were then asked, from a Garda vetting point of view, for details of shared properties where people aged under 18 years were going to be involved in placements. Members probably know from the numbers that a substantial number of women are here with their children. I think they account for two thirds of the people who have come. On that basis, the Government decided that Garda vetting was an essential feature. Again, we designed a process. We also looked for an application so it would be smooth and automatic to get the results into the Department so it could do the placing. We began that work about a month ago.

That work started fully, with people being phoned, at the beginning of May. Interestingly enough, the call centre staff were asking the pledgers if they were willing to be Garda vetted and the wonderful news was that over 97% of people said "Yes", which was a very positive feature of the process. We began at the start of May and we have a team of 50 volunteers and staff. We have been assisted by Scouting Ireland, which has expertise in the area that it has developed over years. We liaise on a weekly basis with the Garda vetting bureau and the first part of the process is to email the pledger looking to verify their details online. Essentially, we set up a Zoom call, the people join and we verify their data and that they are who they say they are. Once they do that we send the Garda vetting form, which they send to the Garda

That is when we lose control of the process because the people have 30 days to complete that form and send it in themselves. Those who have done it know it is not a straightforward form; that is the reality. To be fair, the Garda initially stated it would be done in seven days and then it was five days but, to be frank, they are doing it in two or three days. It is a very efficient process.

So far we have sent invitations to 1,300 households and just over 500 have engaged. That is an issue. There are 318 individuals who have had their Garda vetting completed. The issue with the pledges is that one might think it is a straightforward process and when the call is made, people will respond immediately. That is not what happens, unfortunately. The guts of 40% responded and more invitations must now be sent out again, which makes the process longer, and that is a pity.

Given the original register of pledges was not built for the volume of activity, we sat down with departmental personnel and Microsoft and we have produced a custom-built customer relationship management system to manage the data. It is fantastic and we are thrilled with it because it is giving us better information and it is more manageable. It is there for the future and it is giving us what we need now in quite a robust way. The portal is still there and it is and will remain the front face. It is excellent and this just gives us a reporting system.

From statistics, the core issues were duplicates, emergency pledges and people wanting to rent their property, which was not part of the arrangement. That takes the guts of 20% out of the picture. The duplicates came from what we have all seen when we are using an app; if something is not working we might press a button a number of times and end up applying a number of times. Withdrawals equate to 22%, which is the norm whenever we have done this with our friends from Syria and Afghanistan. The norm is always that type of number. In this case, it is somewhat unusual in one respect as a small percentage of people are withdrawing because they have already taken in refugees. They have done this informally. We have spent quite a bit of time working with a number of groups working in the informal sector, and to be fair that is working well.

The portion of people who were not contactable is 24%. These are people who have been called a number of times and they have not answered the phone for whatever reason. There are all sorts of reasons around that. We will be sending an email on Thursday to every one of those and we are offering an opportunity to come back to us on the phone. We have a freefone hotline and we are simply asking that if people are still in, they should call us. We have SalesSense, a call centre, ready for that now so we can capture as many of those offers as possible. The rest is with the Department. I have said from the start that if we got 33% we would be doing well. We are at 35% and I would say we will do better. We have had new pledges in the past ten days numbering at more than 300, which is encouraging to say the least.

That gives a sense of where we are with pledges. We are happy with progress to date. It is slow but statistics indicate the volume involved. There are two elements, which are the volume and the complexity of the arrangement on the phone. The volume is interesting because we have contacted a vast number of people. At this stage we have made over 40,000 calls and received 27,000 calls to our office, which is a huge volume of activity. That is apart from the nearly 8,000 emails and the other calls being made.

The next piece is obviously that the Department is busy with the placement of people. I am aware people might say the process is quite slow but it is actually a slow process because we are matching two sets of people. We must be careful that the right refugee is going in with the right host so that all the needs are met. It is complex, as we know from the past. We are matching people ourselves but sometimes there are elements like school, work or medical issues to be considered. We have a number of "aged out" minors, as they are called, or people who have just turned 18. We need to put them in carefully with a particular family. The different varieties of need must be weighed up when making the call.

That is what I wanted to say to the committee but we are delighted to take any questions.

Deputy Holly Cairns

I welcome the delegation before the committee and thank them for making the time to come. More significantly, I thank them for the incredible work being done by the organisation to help in the Ukrainian and other refugee crises. I know the Red Cross has a long history of supporting refugees and is an essential part of the infrastructure that helps relocate and support refugees more broadly.

The opening statement outlines the scale and comprehensive nature of the organisation's work in securing accommodation for refugees, and it gives a sense of the complexities involved. I have a few questions. When a population has fled their homes and their lives to escape violence, almost definitely experiencing some kind of trauma, all of this will put considerable pressure on those individuals and the host families sharing the accommodation. In the short and medium term, what types of social and psychological supports will be needed to be made available for both refugees and their host families?

There was reference to an incredible €33 million that has been fundraised. I presume that amount is dwindling as time goes on because there is only so much that people can give etc. Is there a need for additional supports in some other way? What could the Government do to provide more support? If there is time, will Mr. O'Dwyer speak to what lessons we can learn in our immediate response to Ukraine that we can apply to other refugee emergencies?

Mr. Liam O'Dwyer

The first question was about supports for hosts and refugees, which are both crucial. In the case of the host, we have an online training course that we will run for the hosts. It is not just us, as the Irish Refugee Council and Nasc and a number of us have designed it. It is quite specific to the hosts in this situation. That will be made available to people who are hosting.

Equally, there is the critical piece applying for refugees. Garda vetting is one thing but safeguarding is as important. That means we must have in place support for refugees who have moved out of hotels into accommodation and our community.

There are two types of support, namely, psychosocial support and counselling support. Then there is also simply having a name and a number and knowing that if there is a difficulty, that person can be contacted. That is very important. Earlier today, I was talking to some other NGOs and emphasising the fact that this is not just about the Red Cross, that we are all in this together and that we need to have such support in place. One thing the Department needs to focus on is ensuring that the refugees and the hosts have contact people to whom they can come back if there is any issue - and there will be issues. There always are. Sometimes these arrangements, as we know from the past, break down on either the host side or the refugee side. We need to be able quickly to move on that. That is the point of the project I mentioned earlier in respect of the people who have volunteered. Our intent is to train them in order that more volunteers will be available if refugees needed them. The other lesson we have learnt is that sometimes refugees say to us, "We are fine, thanks." It is important to be able to recognise that as well.

Deputy Cairns's second question was about lessons learned-----

Deputy Holly Cairns

In comparison with other emergencies, the immediacy of our response to this one has been amazing. What lessons can we learn in responding to other refugee crises?

Mr. Liam O'Dwyer

What has been done here has been superb at this stage in the sense that people have come in. As for the way in which it has been structured, it took a little time at the airports and the ports, which is fine, and it has become very well co-ordinated. The setting up of the hubs, the use of emergency accommodation in the form of hotels, etc., has all gone very well. The lesson learned is that it can be done if one is organised. We need to learn lessons for the future in that regard. At the same time, hotels will be used shortly for other purposes, and refugees are being moved from one place to the next. All of that is difficult, and lessons from it need to be learned quickly because refugees need to be communicated with. The biggest issue for them is what is called progression. They have children, some have jobs and they want to know where they will be, which is understandable. When they are moved like that, it is an issue - there is no doubt about it - and that issue will have to be dealt with.

Mr. Pat Carey

One of the lessons I notice, stepping further back from the front line than Mr. O'Dwyer, is that it is imperative that refugees feel they have ownership of what is happening and that they are not moved at short notice or to someplace that is patently unsuitable to their needs and so on. There are a number of very interesting projects emerging in different parts of the country, which I think will prove to be templates. I certainly recommend that communities engaged in capacity building, as we call it, throughout the country include the Ukrainian community and, indeed, the Syrian community, the Afghan community and so on in order, as Mr. O'Dwyer said, that there is real evidence of progression in what is happening.

Deputy Holly Cairns

My final question is about the amazing amount in donations received. Is that dwindling, and how will the Red Cross be fixed in the short to medium term?

Mr. Liam O'Dwyer

We have distributed quite a bit so far. We intend to have distributed €14 million by the end of June. We have thought about deliberately holding back maybe €10 million simply in the hope that there is a solution - a peace. At that stage, those moneys can be used to enable people's return, for livelihoods, for rebuilding, etc. That is the plan. Moneys are still coming in all the time. While we are not out there as forcefully as we could be for obvious reasons, we are still taking in quite an amount of money and we are allocating it back out again as quickly as we can. We are caught at times in something of a strange position. We want to move the money out but, at the same time, we are being careful in order that, at a later stage, we will have moneys to move at the appropriate time.

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

I thank Mr. O'Dwyer and Mr. Carey for being here. We have all learned a lesson about the generosity of the Irish people and communities. The Irish never stop; they just keep giving. This has been hard. An issue I have seen involves Ukrainians who have come into the country spending a long time at the airport. I asked the Minister a moment ago if he had a list as to where or to which counties they might go. He said that he did not and that the Department has to put them on buses and send them wherever there are vacancies. As the Minister said, that is probably not as suitable as it should be, even though we have to make sure that they have accommodation and that they are in proper facilities. That needs to be addressed.

I wish to ask the witnesses about another area that is very important. We have seen through the Covid pandemic the HSE, the local authorities, the social inclusion and community activation programme, Carlow County Development Partnership and all the various groups, such as the Garda and so on, come together. How has that impacted on the Red Cross's work? I can only compliment it on the work it has done. This has not been easy. It has been almost a tsunami for the Red Cross in the sense that it has never dealt with so many people, I would say. Well done. It is important that we compliment the volunteers and also An Post in the context of its work. Everyone came together. The Red Cross depends on the local authorities and all the various agencies in its work. Mr. Carey said he feels there is a template there. In what way will that have an impact?

The language barrier is another issue. We have spoken about housing today, which is great, and the Chairman brought the matter up with the Minister earlier. The Ministers have decided on the €400 payment to people who would be in a position to take in families and so on. That is welcome. How do the witnesses think that will benefit people? What do they think it will be like? Will it be an incentive? There has been so much goodwill. The Minister also said people can host from one person to two people to three people or maybe two or three adults and two or three children. How do the witnesses feel it will work? When it comes to accommodation, I see this because I work with some community groups in my area of County Carlow. There are people buying more. There is so much food, clothes and so on being donated. Shops are being set up. How do the witnesses feel that will work in the long term? What is the witnesses' long-term vision for this? They have been involved in it for so long.

Kilkenny has a Red Cross branch; Carlow and other areas such as mine do not. Does Mr. Carey see that in the future we will need to set up Red Cross branches in other areas? What does he see as the best practice in that regard? Things have happened so quickly. There are issues and concerns we still need to look at.

I wish to pick up on a point Mr. O'Dwyer made. Of the total number of pledges of accommodation, 35% are with the Department. Mr. O'Dwyer might explain that and how it works. Is he concerned that the number of pledges withdrawn amounts to 22%? While everybody is doing so much good work, sometimes I think there is a little confusion in communities. Maybe we need to look at that. What people are asking is whether this will be for months or whatever. No one can tell them. That is something we need to address. Overall, we should communicate with the public and the communities in the work done by the likes of the Red Cross and all the other agencies. Ireland has really played its part. Again, well done.

I hope the witnesses got some questions out of that. There were about ten altogether.

Mr. Liam O'Dwyer

Yes, that is right. I will deal with the last one first because it is the easiest. As for the pledges, the figure of 35% represents just over 3,000 vacant pledges. Then there are more than 6,000 shared pledges. The figure, therefore, is in the vicinity of just over 9,000 homes available in one shape or form.

The vacant ones are available and accessible now. That is where the immediate success will come. While adults can be put into shared accommodation, the Garda vetting slows the pace down. It has to be done but it will take time and it is difficult to ascertain precisely when that will come to fruition. The withdrawals are normal. People respond immediately. The generosity of Irish people is extraordinary that way. They immediately respond and then their circumstances change, or they did not discuss it with their family first, or they decide they cannot do it for six months. We look for a minimum of six months and some people will decide to take a step back then, particularly for shared accommodation. It is better in a way that people take a step back at that point rather than having somebody in the house and then saying it is not working. Having someone, or even two or three people, in the house for that period of time takes some thinking through.

The community fora were one of the great things that came out of Covid. I know that is an awful thing to say but they brought a lot of communities together, and different players within those communities. They gave the local authorities a different focus. That is something I had not seen in local authorities before but it worked extremely well. We can see that at the moment with the Ukrainian people coming in. They are in fact benefiting from that because the various organisations are working together locally. There are some wonderful examples. There is a convent in Templemore and the community, the Red Cross and the local authority are involved in getting 30 or 40 refugees moved in there this week. It is the same up the road in Fethard, where there are 60 people. The schools have taken the children in and the local employer, Coolmore, has taken people in. Local businesspeople have funded it and then the Department is also providing funding. There is a community involved in each of those cases. That is the way to go.

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

Is there a concern about the language barrier?

Mr. Liam O'Dwyer

I have not encountered that concern yet. In saying that, I am not close enough to the situation, ironically, because I am sitting in an office. I interviewed a Ukrainian lady for a position today and I interviewed another yesterday. We want to bring the Ukrainian people into our office to do this work with us. They all speak extremely good English and the project we are jointly running in Vicar Street will be part of it. There will be English classes there and there will be Ukrainians working there as well.

Mr. Pat Carey

My background is in teaching so I would be reasonably familiar with this matter. With regard to the flow of refugees, the first surge would have had a very strong capacity and been well able to look after themselves but the language skills of those coming more recently are limited enough. From what I am hearing, the Departments of Education and of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science have moved mountains to make resources available to schools in order to ensure there is not too much of a divide. Interestingly, I chaired a meeting of an Irish language organisation this afternoon and I noticed that there are Gaeilge go hÚcráinis and Úcráinis go Gaeilge projects going on around the country and online at the moment. They are doing extremely well.

Regarding the lessons the Red Cross has to learn, we are always trying to recruit. Carlow-Kilkenny and the strength of the organisation there is very close to some of our hearts. One of our key objectives as an organisation is to try to make sure we have potential recruits who will join and stay on. During Covid, a lot of people became part of community support networks and so on and they are key to much of what is happening in local communities. The trick for all voluntary organisations is to get recruits and hold onto them. Organisations have to have a programme that is attractive. That is part of what we do. As a people we have learned a lot from the Hungarian, Vietnamese and Bosnian refugees that came here. A lot of learning has happened and a skill set has been built up that we did not realise was as deep-rooted as it is. That will happen again. We should not take our eye off the ball.

The dynamic of every county is different. Public representatives should give themselves a pat on the back. When this started, the first people who got onto us were Deputies, Senators and councillors, because they had already identified vacant houses and so on. When the Ceann Comhairle hosted a coffee morning across the way, I met Members from all parties saying they had six houses and had fixed up six families. That was all done through informal routes. Now that has to be supported with whatever supports are necessary for that to work. There is a role for a loose enough structure but when dealing with vulnerable people and children there needs to be certainty and structure all the time. I encourage the Government to continue to build supports that will outlast this crisis. I think it will be around for a lot longer than some people think.

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

I again thank the witnesses. They have done marvellous work and I cannot give them enough praise for what they have done in that time. The Ukrainian people have said themselves that the Irish people have made them so welcome and the Red Cross has played a huge role in that so well done to the witnesses and their teams.

Chairman

What Mr. Carey said about the Irish language is interesting. I was just saying in the earlier session that my son is in fourth class in a Gaelscoil in Kilkenny and a Ukrainian boy has joined the class. They are delighted and excited about it and it is a great story and example of how integration should work. It was interesting that Mr. Carey mentioned that. I call Senator Seery Kearney.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

I thank the witnesses. Their work is extraordinary. Throughout this crisis we have begun to see at home how experienced the Red Cross is and that the past experiences of the Red Cross and the Irish Red Cross have crystallised for the Irish people. We get to see it first-hand because instead of doing work abroad, we have seen all the Red Cross is doing in Ireland. People are very proud of what the Irish Red Cross is doing and are very grateful that it is doing it in our names.

I played a very tiny role in the Vicar Street project through a Ukraine support group. I got a call a number of weeks ago on a Friday night about what we can do. I believe the Ukrainians are best placed to tell us what they need and we must respond to that as best we can and resource that as much as possible. I had a contact for Vicar Street. They said they needed a community centre and I said this was who they should contact. I then stepped away from it because they knew how to mind their own business and be in charge of what they need. It somehow felt patronising to say I thought we should do this or that. It is better to merely respond. I am delighted it is up and running. It could be in no better hands. There are very dynamic and extraordinary people at the helm and they, along with the Irish Red Cross, will make it a great resource.

I know this goes on in other conflicts but we have never quite experienced this weaponisation of citizens in the course of war, this forced migration of people as an element of war and one of the weapons of war, to overwhelm the surrounding countries and the European Union.

I am glad that thus far, we have not been overwhelmed but that we have embraced it and risen up.

One thing I have come across is, naturally, the trauma this has caused in relapses and addiction. It has caused a lot of difficulties like that. Other organisations such as Alcoholics Anonymous, which I had to reach out to earlier on, already had people across the country who could speak various different languages and could respond. Rather than having specific support groups we were told they could go to any support group of Alcoholics Anonymous and there would be people there who are cross-cultural and across all of the languages and who would be able to support them. This is one organisation that is already responding to the trauma as it is presenting in Ireland.

Engaging with other NGOs was mentioned. Is this more formalised? How do public representatives access that to assist with referrals? Generally, we might get a call. I got a call, for instance, about a relapse situation where someone was hosting a family and there were difficulties arising from that. For various other reasons, I had the wherewithal to be able to think about ringing Alcoholics Anonymous and putting all that together. Where there is community co-ordination, there are people who may need a centralised place to go to, or a website, or something along those lines. Is anything like that envisaged or already in existence that would be beneficial for us to know about?

Mr. Liam O'Dwyer

The Ukraine Centre in Vicar Street, ironically enough, is very helpful in that regard. Having discussed it with the Ukrainian group themselves, they identified this a couple of weeks ago to us, very forcibly actually, with the number of people they are coming across within their own community. None of them are staff but their own volunteers were actually quite traumatised by the experiences of listening to some of their fellow country people. Our psychosocial team will be there at Vicar Street, hopefully every day, and we have also agreed that our psychosocial team will train some of the Ukrainian volunteers. We also are being supported by a group of therapists who are meeting next week to begin thinking about how they can make available therapy counselling to Ukrainians. The Red Cross is happy to fund that. It is not within our expertise and it is not an area we would have any capacity in. We do have experience with the psychosocial service but not with therapy. That is something that will be developed, I hope next week.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

That sounds excellent. I was involved in teaching therapy skills to community leaders in Rwanda in the aftermath of the genocide there. The small skills of active listening and protection, in terms of self-care, for those who are working on the front line and meeting people are very important. That is good to hear.

Mr. Pat Carey

A number of professional bodies are engaging with one another and with us at this stage to see how they can develop bespoke solutions to different cohorts. I certainly am hopeful. They do not all need to go through us. Work can be done at local level and so on in devising solutions that are appropriate. I can see this growing.

Reference was made to torture. I suppose we have never experienced this. I spent some time on the foreign affairs committee when I was a Deputy. I remember that one of the most traumatic visits I participated in was to Uganda when we saw the result of the Lord's Resistance Army of Joseph Kony and company. Although I had very poor skills at that time, I recall listening to some of the victims of rape and torture and whatever other defilement could have happened. It is like that but multiples of it and worse. I am confident that those regional solutions of a high standard will emerge over time.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

These clearly are already well under way, including the idea of professional entities and bodies coming together and supporting it, such as the auctioneers we spoke of earlier. That is fantastic. They are great people to go and visit houses. They would size them up perfectly and use their skill set in a really beneficial and helpful way. The witnesses have really answered many of the points.

On families with disabilities, I have some experience of organisations in my home constituency of Dublin South Central that are working with Ukrainian families who have come over and who have children with disabilities. Are there bespoke solutions or supports there, in the experience of the Irish Red Cross?

Mr. Liam O'Dwyer

We have been asked to accommodate three families with disabilities. The first port of call is to make certain that the homes they are going into are adequate. We are linked into the Disability Federation of Ireland, which has offered us advice on that. We took somebody on within the office to assist us in project management who has a background in that also. Three families are really all that we have come across at this stage but we reckon there are more around the country. Our experience to date, and the arrangements we have at the moment, are with Disability Federation of Ireland to offer whatever supports are required.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

I reiterate the Minister's advice, which is to connect with the authorities first before families come in, to ensure that adequate supports are there.

Mr. Liam O'Dwyer

To be fair, what is coming our way is directed by the Minister's Department. They are doing the placements. There are other people coming to us, however, and we are picking up some of the arrangements that might have fallen apart such as the more informal arrangements, and we are stepping in at that stage. Any of the aged-out minors, anybody with medical issues, and anybody with a disability who may need additional supports, are coming our way from the Department.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

As Mr. O'Dwyer has just alluded to, there are some situations in shared accommodation that do not work out. That is not unique to this situation and has happened before, as Mr. O'Dwyer shared in a Fine Gael forum when we talked about it previously. That is okay. We are human and sometimes it just does not work out. An important message to communicate to people is that it is okay to try it and if it does not work out, the Irish Red Cross is experienced in stepping in to support that. I thank the witnesses very much.

Chairman

I will add one or two things. We have all heard the stories of delays, and Mr. O'Dwyer touched on that very well in his opening statement, which was great. There was also some coverage on the radio last week when people called in to say that they were still waiting to be contacted. I want to give Mr. O'Dwyer the opportunity to clarify that some of those delays were due to issues that just could not be avoided, such as Garda vetting and so on. For those people who have pledged and still want to follow through, it is important that the message goes out through this public meeting today that they will get the opportunity, they will be contacted, and to hold tight.

Mr. Liam O'Dwyer

Absolutely, and that is the point of the email that will go out on Thursday. It will have a 1800 number on it so that people know we have that number and that people are manning those lines. Extra people will be going on the lines from Thursday and Friday to make certain that calls in will be answered. It is important to us that everybody who has pledged gets feedback. I followed up last week with a number of people who had called the Joe Duffy show. Again, I made the calls. It took two or three calls to actually get through. It can be difficult and I understand people saying, "We pledged and we have not heard from you." That is simply not acceptable. We will make every effort over the coming few days so that everybody will be contacted.

Chairman

It is great to have that clarified. It is helpful for the committee to be able to clearly say to people that they will be contacted and not to panic about it as such.

What advice would our guests give to people who want to help, who want to get involved and who may have given a donation to the various shows where people could call or text in with a donation?

Sometimes people, with the best will in the world, can arrive somewhere with a bunch of goods that are not needed or necessary. What advice would the witnesses have for the people who are watching this debate and want to do something constructive, but do not know what to do? Where can they donate? What is the best thing for them to do?

Mr. Liam O'Dwyer

It is to participate in the community responses, whether it is with the Red Cross, Irish Refugee Council or any other such groups, or the local authority fora. For people to put time in is far more important than anything else at the moment. Obviously, cash was hugely helpful at the start, and remains so. Most of the major aid organisations operate because they know what they need and where to get it, and they just need to be resourced to deliver that.

Chairman

Okay, very good.

Mr. Pat Carey

If there is one thing among the many things learned during Covid, it is the importance of befriending each other. We do not realise that people are living on their own from one day of the week to the next. All they need is somebody to walk around and knock on their door, and leave in some sweets or something else, say, "Hello", and tell them they are there if they need them. That still works.

Chairman

Definitely. I thank the witnesses for coming in. It has been great and I feel the issue of delays has been cleared up. It is great to have that on the public record. I commend all the ongoing work, not just the response to Ukraine but everything in general. I ask them to let us know if there is anything else we can do. As they know, a lot falls to this committee and the Department and, therefore, the committee can follow up with them directly. Is it agreed to publish the opening statements to the website? Agreed.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.12 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 24 May 2022.