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Joint Committee on Communications, Climate Action and Environment debate -
Tuesday, 23 Jan 2018

General Scheme of Waste Reduction Bill 2017: Discussion

I wish to draw attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the Chairman to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I also advise that any submission or opening statements made to the committee will be published on the committee website after this meeting.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I remind members, guests and witnesses to turn off their mobile phones or to switch them to flight mode as they interfere with the sound system and make it difficult for the parliamentary reporters to report on the meeting, and they adversely affect television coverage and web streaming.

I welcome to the Gallery the students from St. Fintan's High School, Sutton, who are considering tackling the issue of renewable energy. The focus is on solar-powered schools. The students would have liked to have been present at our meeting on solar energy so we will forward them the Official Report of that meeting. I wish them every success and congratulate them on their endeavours.

This meeting is to scrutinise the waste reduction Bill 2017. I welcome Mr. Vincent Jennings of the Convenience Stores & Newsagents Association, and Mr. Matt Collins, assistant secretary at the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment, who is in attendance to answer any policy questions that may arise. I will take questions from members in the order that they wish to contribute. On behalf of the committee, I thank Mr. Jennings for attending. I shall allow him five minutes in which to give his presentation.

Mr. Vincent Jennings

The Convenience Stores & Newsagents Association, CSNA, welcomes the opportunity to participate in the committee's detailed scrutiny of the general scheme of the waste reduction Bill. The Bill, not having been subject to a regulatory impact assessment or cost-benefit analysis, is lacking in what we would require for detailed scrutiny. We are also concerned that the Bill may be in contravention of European rules on the freedom of movement of goods and Article 18 of the packaging directive. We are concerned that the Bill provides, by way of regulation, for ministerial action without any further stakeholder involvement. CSNA does not consider that Bills discussed in a pre-legislative format should have amendments suggested that may materially alter their substance without a requirement for re-engagement with stakeholders.

We would like to discuss three elements pertaining to this Bill: the banning of non-compostable tableware, the deposit-return scheme, and the possibility, in lieu of a cup-banning section, of the introduction of an environmental levy on hot beverage containers, the so-called "latte levy".

The CSNA questions whether the proposed ban would materially affect the levels of littering and, if so, how the committee could ensure there would be adequate bin facilities for compostables placed throughout the country. We are aware that EU targets for recycling would not be improved for many involved in home composting and we query how success would be measured. The very considerable changes in every workplace to accommodate separate bins for compostable beverage containers need to be evaluated properly and costed. In many cases, we are aware that the contents of bins within local authority collection areas are mixed with ordinary waste, thereby defeating the effort of the consumer. It is a rarity to find any separate bins for recycling waste in our cities or towns.

The cost to industry of providing compostable tableware is currently six times higher than that of ordinary tableware. There are no guarantees that these costs would reduce solely on the basis of increased demand, leaving the retailer or the consumer, or both, with additional costs.

The Department has indicated that its preferred option, instead of a ban on tableware, would be the introduction of an environmental levy. We would like to make a number of observations on this. Initial reports have suggested that such a levy would be based on a percentage of the retail value of the product. The CSNA, while not advocating a levy, suggests, in the interest of equity, that a unit price be charged rather than a percentage. There need to be very clear rules on the levy's application and exceptions. We are concerned that the levy may give rise to difficulties for retailers with regard to product contamination and their HACCP obligations.

We are concerned that the introduction of the proposed levy, unlike the very successful plastic bag levy, could lead to significant additional costs to retailers. Machines might need to be recalibrated, tills and back-office systems would have to have additional product lines applied to accommodate a two-tier system, and there would be significant additional training costs. If such a scheme is being considered, and assuming the Revenue Commissioners are involved in devising rules for its implementation, detailed consultation is required as a matter of urgency to ensure retailers are not affected negatively in their businesses.

One of the areas the CSNA would be most concerned about would be the lack of an even playing field if a certain style of beverage reseller could avoid charging the levy.

With regard to a deposit return scheme, the CSNA does not believe such a scheme is necessary, given the comprehensive existing shared responsibility scheme, Repak, in place across the country. However, we ask the committee to consider how such a deposit return scheme could be put in place which would not act as a barrier to small manufacturers and distributors getting into the marketplace.

There are many styles of deposit return scheme. The type that would be put in place in Ireland might be for plastic bottles, plastic cartons, aluminium cans and glass bottles. If that is the case, it will be important to ensure it is not limited to retailers but also captures hotels, bars and restaurants. We make reference to this because there is always a possibility that partial systems can lead to returns being made of products on which no deposit has been charged. Similarly, the CSNA is most concerned that products purchased outside the State may be subject to the reclaim of unpaid deposits. If a deposit return scheme was in place, it would need to be sufficiently robust to ensure any retailer would not pay out more than the deposit taken in by him or her. If a retail store was the nearest store to a sports gathering or a music festival, the prospect of enterprising groups returning thousands of bottles to a store in which very few deposits had been taken demonstrates the importance of having adequate responsible controls in place. If the module is being designed to be revenue neutral at a macro level, sufficient consideration must be given to ensure that, on a micro level, individual retailers will be rewarded, not penalised, for their involvement in the scheme.

The majority of our members meet their existing packaging obligations through membership of Repak. We do not believe we should be subject to what might be considered to be double taxation were we to be obligated to maintain our Repak membership and incur additional packaging costs for the same products. It is our concern that if implementation of a deposit return scheme were to lead to a reduced income stream for commercial operators, such a reduction could lead to an increase in Repak fees for members.

I thank Mr. Jennings for attending. It was unfortunate that owing to time constraints he was not able to present at an earlier hearing.

When introducing new measures to increase the level of recycling and cut out the wasteful use of plastics, it is important that we work with retailers and everyone involved in the supply chain to make them work. I was taken by one of the statistics given at the last hearing that 34% of plastic packaging was recycled. We know that this figure needs to rise dramatically for reasons such as developing a circular economy, reducing the wasteful use of plastics, environmental emissions, littering problems, the volume of plastics in the environment and so on. That will not be easy, but it is an essential policy objective which we all share.

The plastic bag levy was a huge success. As much as anything else and the 15 cent charge, its success was that it changed the public's perception of the wasteful use of plastics. While I am sure there were difficulties at the time in switching to the use of paper bags and so forth, does Mr. Jennings agree that one of the beneficial effects was the change in public attitudes? My sense is that there is a similar possibility to change our attitude to the use of plastic cups and bottles. A significant number of retailers now sell coffee. I can think of half a dozen newsagents near here, all of which have a coffee machine. There must be reasonable regulations for its use. It is dangerous enough as one is using boiling water and so forth. Is it as simple as plugging it in and not having to worry about it? Do retailers have obligations on the health and safety or food safety side? We do not want to over-regulate and make it impossible for businesses. However, I would have thought that in that aspect of the retail trade, there would already have been in place extensive health and safety and food safety regulations.

I thank Mr. Jennings for attending. The main concern is the significant volume of plastic and paper cups being used and what happens to them. Mr. Jennings has made some valid points about the practicalities of a working scheme in that regard as proposed in the Green Party's Bill. Several months ago I brought forward a similar Bill for Sinn Féin to introduce such a scheme and which compared other schemes in European countries. I would welcome Mr. Jennings's views on it. Our Bill proposed that the scheme be self-funding and that every shop would not have recycling units but that they would be located in prominent areas or large shopping centres. We could return to the use of closed glass bottles or cans. There would be practicalities in how CSNA members would manage such proposals. My Bill proposed that returns be to larger units. For example, if someone was to bring back ten plastic or ten glass bottles, he or she would receive a credit in return.

Do the CSNA's members have views on how we could reduce the use of plastic cups or change to another type of material? In January, as hedgerows and the grass on the side of the road die back, thousands of discarded plastic cups are revealed. In turn, they will be washed into rivers and out into the ocean. We cannot allow this to continue to happen.

I welcome Mr. Jennings and compliment him on his informative presentation. Where does he believe the industry needs to go on the issue of a latte tax? Millions of plastic cups are being used every day. This is a cultural issue and their use has expanded rapidly in the past decade. Some say corner shops are making more on coffee than on anything else. It has become the cash machine in the corner. Should plastic cups be recyclable? Will it be like the plastic bag levy whereby one will be bringing one's own cup to a coffee dispensing unit? How would CSNA members work with that scenario? Has it been thought out? This is one of the big dilemmas coming down the tracks and it is only a matter of time before the area is regulated by the industry or the Oireachtas. Buy-in by the CSNA's members is key to ensuring it will actually happen.

I know there are a lot of questions for Mr. Jennings.

Mr. Vincent Jennings

All of us are on the same page in acknowledging that there is a problem. We acknowledge that we are part of that problem; we are a conduit. As long as I have been around - I am older than most here - there has been education on litter in schools. All of us remember it from fourth class onwards. We were very proud and our teachers were very proud in bringing us up. However, at the same time people feel no difficulty in opening their window and throwing things out, including things we have sold and things that others have sold. There is a fundamental problem here. The crux of the matter is that people are behaving inappropriately. Having a deposit-and-return scheme for glass and plastic bottles would most certainly meet some of the requirements in pushing people in another direction and making it economic.

However, the matter relating to litter and people thinking nothing about tossing a coffee cup out of the window will not be addressed because there is no return scheme for that. I have suggested that receptacles for those products be more widely available and also that our littering laws be enforced more fully. Local authorities should make a big thing about compliance. At the moment the fine is €150. In addition to local authorities, the Garda should also be involved. We need to use CCTV or whatever. We need to make it very clear that this society does not stand for littering.

Relating to small stores, the Deputy may think that his Bill was designed to facilitate and make it an easy streamlined thing. I can assure him that whatever solutions are being planned by this committee, the Department or others, small retailers need to be part of that solution. We cannot end up effectively exporting sales. If there is only one area - and it is attached to a shopping centre - where one can return the product and the vouchers are only available to be cashed in at that point, it becomes the norm for people to make their purchases there. We do not want to see that. We need to be part of the solution and that may require grants to assist us in the reverse-vending machines. It may require consideration of being rewarded for taking part if it is on a manual basis rather than reverse machines. However, if there is such a scheme the small retailer needs to be part of it because otherwise we are letting it go over to the multinationals and we cannot afford that.

On the composition of the cup, there is no doubt that the cup could be changed. Whether it will retain the same level of heat is a matter for the scientists and others. I return to the fact that even if we meet all of those requirements and there is no product contamination and no difficulties in the taste or anything like that, we still have the question of what that person who leaves my store and finishes his coffee walking down the street will do with the cup. How can we ensure that, following very significant investment in time and resources to devise a compostable cup, it actually does what it is supposed to do and becomes composted, and does not just end up in landfill or being incinerated? That is the important thing. There is an education requirement. I may not have answered all the questions; I probably did not. I would like to leave one message. We, the small retailers, want to be part of the solution. We acknowledge that there is a problem. We do not have our heads in the sand. We are not saying it is not our fault. We are all part of that, but we also need to be part of the solution.

I thank Mr. Jennings. I really appreciate his coming in here.

May I clarify one point?

Very briefly.

The credit slip could be used at any store. That is my understanding of how they operate in other countries. I take on board Mr. Jennings's point that convenience stores and newsagents need to be part of it. We do not want to lose the corner shop either.

I thank Mr. Jennings for appearing before the committee today. It is proposed that the committee publish the submission to our website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

We will suspend to allow witnesses to take their seats for the second session of the meeting.

Sitting suspended at 12.25 p.m. and resumed at 12.28 p.m.
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