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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES debate -
Wednesday, 24 Jun 2009

Protecting Children from Marketing of Unhealthy Foods: Discussion.

I welcome Ms Maureen Mulvihill, Irish Heart Foundation, Ms Janis Morrissey, Irish Heart Foundation, Mr. David Kennedy, chair, National Heart Alliance, and Ms Margot Brennan, Irish Nutrition and Dietetic Institute and National Heart Alliance. The joint committee has invited representatives of the Irish Heart Foundation to discuss protecting children from marketing of unhealthy foods.

Before we begin, I draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee which cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses. Furthermore, under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I understand Ms. Mulvihill will begin the presentation.

Ms Maureen Mulvihill

On behalf of our chief executive, I offer his apologies that he could not be here with us today. On behalf of the foundation and the National Heart Alliance, I thank the committee for this opportunity to discuss a critical and important health issue relevant to communications. It is a timely opportunity.

I will briefly outline who we are. I also acknowledge the new Broadcasting Bill 2008, which is now before the Seanad. I welcome it, particularly the articles that provide for protecting children from foods high in fat, sugar and salt. As a public health body, we will revisit the health of our children. We will urgently call for the implementation of the regulations in the new Bill. We want to look at newer communication technologies, particularly the Internet, and what we could do in the future on this issue. Perhaps in learning from the UK experience, we can be informed about what our legislation might say.

The Irish Heart Foundation is a leading national charity. We fight to reduce premature death and disability from cardiovascular disease, especially heart attack and stroke. Cardiovascular disease is the number one killer, causing 10,000 deaths each year.

The National Heart Alliance is a group of 27 member organisations. It was set up by the Irish Heart Foundation in 1998 as part of an EU-funded initiative to look at heart health issues and, subsequently, child obesity. As an alliance in Ireland, we have focused on the following: children, particularly physical activity where we have done some work; nutrition, on which we made a statement; and food marketing, which has been a particular concern since 2005.

On the health of our children in the context of obesity, as the committee will probably be well aware, the current status is quite problematic. One in five Irish children aged five to 12 years and teenagers is overweight or obese. Ireland is ahead of the European average, which is one in six children. Sadly, an obese child is more likely to become an obese adult. That is one of the main health consequences. However, in children who are overweight or obese we are also seeing early signs of heart disease, high blood pressure, high levels of cholesterol and even the development of type 2 diabetes, which is adult on-set diabetes. Typically, up to ten or 20 years ago, such diabetes was only seen in middle age people.

We have concerns that we will see the reversal of the trend in the past 30 years where we reduced premature death and disability from cardiovascular disease. The burden to the Exchequer and to health of increasing levels of heart disease is certainly of concern.

The national children's survey gives one explanation of the issue. One fifth of Irish children's energy intake comes from sweets, snacks and biscuits — foods from the top shelf of the food pyramid that should only be taken on occasion as a treat. There is a daily intake of sugary soft drinks, averaging approximately two glasses. As a result, some Irish children have low intakes of calcium, iron and essential vitamins.

For example, a four year old child requires approximately 1,400 calories per day. If a child is to consume on average one can of fizzy drink and a packet of crisps, this amounts to 350 calories, leaving only approximately 1,000 calories from which to draw essential nutrients for growth and development. There are children who are consuming 1,400 calories from regular family meals and from healthy nutritious sources, but if they are adding such snack foods, that would in part explain an increase in weight.

To be clear, we are speaking of the marketing of foods high in fat, sugar and salt. These are, typically, salty and sugary snacks high in fat, fast foods, confectionery, biscuits, cakes, chocolate bars, etc., and sweetened cereals, particularly breakfast cereals targeted at children. A National Consumer Association survey with Choice showed that none of the breakfast cereals on the market in Ireland passed the health mark. They were all high in one or all of fat, sugar or, in particular, salt.

The key issue for the regulations will be determining what will be an unhealthy food. There is good evidence from the UK, in particular, of nutrient profiling and that it can work. Energy-dense foods contribute to calories in the diet. They encourage passive over-consumption or mindless eating, and often displace healthier foods.

We are focusing on marketing, not in the broadest commercial sense, but purely on those media that are of particular relevance to this committee. Television advertising enjoys the major spend at approximately 70% of food advertising. Of course, we are concerned about what is happening in schools and sponsorship of sports, but we are also concerned that the Internet is being more extensively used. Games that are seen as entertaining are highly branded and promote products in a subtle, playful creative way. Through the Internet there are added incentives and giveaways such as vouchers for concerts and, of course, there is the area of video games. Texting is another area. There is also the cinema, as well as the print media, including magazines.

We published a paper which we sent to the committee and it is on foot of this that we asked to meet with the committee. We updated the scientific evidence on the issue. We believe there is a strong political momentum at national and EU levels on this issue. The bottom line in our position is that the Irish Heart Foundation and all 27 organisations of the National Heart Alliance call for no television advertising before 9 p.m. of foods which are high in fat, sugar and salt.

For the purposes of this presentation I focused on one of the most important reports, namely, the technical report from the World Health Organization which states that strong scientific rationale is available through robust science and research — that is strong terminology in describing scientific evidence — that links commercial promotion of foods and beverages to poor diets. We refer not merely to obesity, but to poor nutrition and under-nutrition which can have other damaging effects on health, including osteoporosis, poor growth development and poor mental health. The conclusion of the report was there is extensive food and drink promotion aimed at children. Children engage with and appreciate this promotion, it overwhelmingly relates to foods high in fat, sugar and salt and it undermines the healthy eating message we are trying to deliver through the Department of Health and Children, our Little Steps campaign, which is being run by the HSE, and, particularly, the social personal and health education curriculum in schools. We also deliver this message through the everyday work of the Irish Heart Foundation and the members of the National Heart Alliance. Such food promotion has a damaging effect on children's food knowledge, attitudes, purchasing behaviour and consumption.

The next slide, which members will have seen before and is featured in our report, is the inverse pyramid that shows most food advertised to children comes from the top shelf; they are the foods we should eat least. There is very little advertising of fruit, vegetables and fibre foods. The World Health Organization estimates that for every €1 it spends on health messages, the food industry spends €500 on promoting unhealthy foods.

The European Heart Network conducted a survey in which the Irish Heart Foundation and the National Heart Alliance were involved and this confirmed the massive scale of the marketing of unhealthy foods across Europe. The findings backed up the stance of the World Health Organization on the need for European and national measures. It is an important point that food advertising to children was selected as one of five top policies to tackle obesity and other chronic diseases across 20 countries. There was wide consultation of many stakeholders from the industry, public health and consumer organisations and EU-based organisations. There are many other political, scientific and consumer reports but there is a consensus in calling for action and controls on marketing food to children.

It is important to set out what Irish consumers and parents have to say. In 2008 we conducted a survey of 1,000 parents through Red C omnibus research. Nine out of ten parents agreed that food advertising influences their children's food choices and four out of five agreed to a ban on advertising unhealthy food before 9 p.m. There is public support for this initiative among parents and consumers.

Ireland has been progressive and the children's advertising code is welcome but we must acknowledge it is mainly directed at the broadcast media. The code is a good start but it is not enough; a review has just been published and we saw it only this week. We welcome some of the review's recommendations but the code still exposes children to advertising as it does not take into account the cumulative effect of advertising, including advertising on television. This cumulative effect involves the other channels of communication food companies use — I listed them in an earlier slide. The Internet is not regulated and this presents challenges. Other channels of communication such as the cinema, billboards, sports arenas and areas where children congregate are also causes of concern. These channels can be heavily branded by companies promoting unhealthy foods.

I gave an incorrect reference regarding the Ofcom review — I said it was conducted by the Department of Health. It is in fact a review by Ofcom of its own rules that was conducted at the end of last year. Regulations in the UK restrict advertising to children during children's programming and this had various results. As a result of the regulations children saw less advertising, fewer advertisements featuring characters, fewer brand characters associated with a particular product, fewer celebrities, fewer promotions and fewer health claims. However, outside children's air time all of these techniques increased, except character licensing. Members might ask why this occurred. The number of food and drink advertisements has increased overall in the UK, mainly due to the proliferation of channels. In addition, and importantly, food and drink advertisements have shifted from children's air time to adults' air time and this has been driven by the restrictions. The regulations relating to children up to 16 years of age only apply until 7 p.m. and there are no restrictions thereafter. The net effect of the changes is that children are exposed to slightly more advertising.

Regarding the impact on broadcasters, despite the fall in food and drink advertisement revenues for children's channels overall, revenues have been increased. Advertising relating to reformulation products, healthy products and non-food areas has increased; the increase in the advertising of healthy foods is welcome.

We will keep working on this area and we call for the regulations proposed by the new broadcasting authority to be implemented as soon as possible, while taking into account the recently published review of the children's code. Specifically, we feel the diet and nutrition category should be reviewed. We ask that the code prohibit the advertising of unhealthy foods to children before 9 p.m., given what happened in the UK. We would like the committee to make recommendations on how we can proceed with the systematic monitoring of the nature and extent of food advertising and marketing in all communications directed at children. This could, in turn, inform policy makers. We must monitor such marketing on the Internet. Ongoing research is required on the overall impact of food promotion, marketing and advertising. We have supplied a list of the National Heart Alliance members who support the position paper for the information of committee members.

A major advertising conference is held by ISBA in the UK every year and last year Baroness Jean Coussins spoke of the impact of advertising. I will allow committee members to read for themselves what advertisers say about the impact of advertising.

My apologies for being late. I welcome the delegates and their visit is timely as we have just completed the Broadcasting Bill. This area was subject to debate during Committee Stage. Some of us felt the Minister could have gone much further with restrictions but he chose not to do so. The evidence presented by the delegates relating to the British experience and the fact that things are getting a little worse there, despite the restrictions, is a cause of concern. It seems that in the UK there is now a greater concentration on children than previously. The lesson is that we must ensure that whatever legislation is put in place, restrictions must meet the target, rather than simply be for optics. We are all conscious of the epidemic of childhood obesity. The problem is not limited to children but we must concentrate on them most. I am concerned by the limitations of the legislation and ask the delegates to comment on them.

How effective can the code of practice be in terms of impact? McDonald's may promote salads but this is really just a way of promoting a brand associated by children with other, unhealthy kinds of food. Problems arise in the legislation in this regard and I seek the opinions of the delegates.

It seems obvious that unified action across Europe is needed. We deal with communications covering television, the Internet and so on but we cannot do much within the confines of one nation. We need a much bigger, global effort. Could the witnesses talk a little about that and how they see it being realised?

I congratulate the group on the presentation, which is superb and very timely. I agree with the points they make all the way through and the importance of it. Deputy McManus's point about advertising is a constant source of concern to many of us in both Houses of the Oireachtas. I have recently had an engagement with what is loosely termed the hospitality or drinks industry on the question of advertising focused on children before the 9 p.m. deadline. The industry has made the most convoluted arguments about how ineffective advertising is. That is why the final quote of the presentation is superb because that is the reality. Unless people tell us advertising does not work, it should not be there.

This is to do with obesity, but could everything the witnesses say be extended to alcohol advertising to young people, which has exactly the same follow-on difficulties for the industries, generally speaking? Rather than breaking up the focus on these issues, we might extend it out. Deputy McManus touched on my other issue, the argument that is put up every time I argue this. It is like the climate change argument. What can a little country such as Ireland do about this when satellite television is coming from all over Europe and the world? I know the answer is that if every country does its bit the whole thing will come together. To be more specific from our point of view, to be politically strategic about it, how can this be moved on to the European agenda? That is the issue for us here.

I thank the Chairman and join my colleagues in welcoming the witnesses and thanking them for the presentation. It is very interesting and thought provoking. It touches only the tip of the iceberg, but I appreciate that is all they can do in the time available. I share their overall concerns about childhood obesity and I note they have emphasised the physical impact. My background is psychology and I have major concerns about the psychological impact that childhood obesity has for children in the here and now who are suffering from it. It often leads them to be the victims of much teasing and jeering. It is not good for their self-esteem and development and can lead to much more significant difficulties for their psychological well-being later in their teens and early adulthood. It is very important it is addressed.

While there is an obesity problem overall in our population, we focus on children because they are particularly dependent on our doing the right thing and the situations they find themselves in as children, whether obese or not, is something they possibly have little control over. I am struck by the example in the presentation of the four year old having a sugary drink and a packet of crisps. A four year old does not walk into a shop and ask for that. I take the point the witnesses make on the impact of advertising and marketing, but advertising and marketing alone are not responsible for this, although that is the focus of today's meeting.

It is important we examine the role of parents, schools and other young people's facilities. One of the slides used the example of vending machines in schools, sports clubs and venues used for scouts or guides. That all has an impact. I am interested in what the witnesses are saying about advertising and they are clearly saying it is quite powerful. I would like a little more information on the evidence of its power. On the slides the witnesses reported that nine out of ten parents said it influences them.

Should we talk about a limit to after 9 p.m.? Should we also examine it in a different way and ask, if advertising and marketing is that powerful, should we seek to use it as a positive tool for children's well-being to promote healthier eating, more exercise or better care? There are other issues outside advertising and marketing to do with parenting, nutrition and schools. If advertising and marketing is that powerful, should we harness that power to do something positive with it?

I too welcome the witnesses and compliment them on their talk and concern for the issue. Childhood obesity and health is a major issue and as a parent of young children I understand it. During the debate on the Broadcasting Bill we discussed the powerful messages beaming in to us from all over the world. Who will pay for the major expense associated with the monitoring? What efforts have the witnesses made to work with the industry? As Senator Corrigan said, could the witnesses use the tools of advertising and marketing to turn it around for the good of young people rather than complaining about them?

Do the witnesses believe the food companies have done nothing? Are they making any effort at all? What engagement have they had, or do they intend to have, with the companies? There is no point in saying it is "them" and "us". This situation must be worked on with parents. As other speakers have said, the small children do not buy food and fill the shopping trolleys with food to be stored in the house. That is a major problem. I would like to know what engagement there has been and in what positive ways we can look at it. There is an issue of employment if we are to displace many people working in advertising and manufacturing.

During the presentation Ms Mulvihill referred in passing to no breakfast cereals passing some criteria she had. Could she elaborate on that? I was recently in the supermarket and noticed one entire aisle was full of breakfast cereals, all very colourful and clearly aimed at children. I was interested in that comment. Following what Senator Corrigan and several other committee members said about schools that have tuck shops or vending machines, I am aware that some schools and teachers have ensured these have been taken out of schools. Going back over the years, particularly coming up to Dublin in the mornings during school term, many children buy breakfast rolls in shops. What is Ms Mulvihill's view on that? How do they compare to a healthy breakfast or do they come under what she calls HFSS, high in fat, salt and sugars. At any stage Ms Mulvihill may bring in her colleagues to comment.

Ms Maureen Mulvihill

I will start at the beginning. Deputy McManus's question was on the limits in the legislation. I would have hoped that with the recommendations under the broadcasting code, the children's advertising code and the new Bill that the new authority would have enough powers to deal adequately with the foods high in fat, sugar and salt. That is my understanding of the proposed Bill.

The code of practice would be a voluntary code as I understand it. I am aware of many codes of practice internationally and a review by the World Health Organization that found that codes of practice are largely ineffective primarily because they are not monitored systematically. Some companies may abide by them and some may not. Work is being done as part of an EU-funded project. As soon as that report — which has the same author as the first one — is published I will be happy to share with the group its findings on self-regulation, codes of practice and so forth. The public health body internationally accepts that voluntary codes of practice do not work.

I may ask one of my colleagues to speak about the big brands and the promotion of salads. Ms Morrissey or Ms Brennan might like to comment on that. While they are promoting a healthy food product they are still promoting their brands.

Ms Janis Morrissey

That is an issue we have come across. It is not just about promoting specific food products but about the creation of brand loyalty. A study in the UK looked at carrots that were branded with a well known fast food outlet and carrots that were generic. It was found that the children opted for those branded with the fast food outlet's logo, which nicely demonstrates the issue in terms of creating that brand loyalty. We feel that is one of the weaknesses of the children's advertising code. It does not protect children from the promotion of particular brands through logos, images, characters, and themes such as fantasy and so on. We feel that is a key weakness in the existing legislation.

Ms Maureen Mulvihill

Moving on to European-wide action, there are initiatives. The World Health Organization works with 15 countries to investigate regulations and a code as called for by the World Health Assembly and many other players. I mentioned that the consumers' association and International Obesity Taskforce have drawn up a code to be agreed among 15 countries and sent back to the World Health Organization. There is some momentum. The code is mirroring much of what we are considering in terms of foods that are high in fats, sugar and salt.

Is it still voluntary?

Ms Maureen Mulvihill

No, it would be a code of practice with government monitoring and supervision. It would be government-led rather than industry-led. I will jump on to the argument that we are only a little country. However, there are good examples from Norway and Sweden which have very successfully banned all advertising of products to children. The same is true of Québec in Canada. I recently received a very good report, which I can forward to the Chairman, published by the British Heart Foundation covering all media. That could be considered. Although as a public health body these are the products about which we are concerned, there are wider issues with marketing and advertising to children in general. Some countries have taken the view that there should be none at all. That gives consumers and particularly children much greater protection. There is significant variance when our country and the UK are compared with Scandinavia in the scale of advertising products. I have just returned from an international meeting on nutrition and physical activity. The Scandinavians are appalled at the level of exposure children elsewhere have to marketing compared with their countries. In those countries there is a wider cultural, political and social agenda that protects children across areas and would address matters like alcohol and so forth. I hope that answers the Senator's question.

Ms Maureen Mulvihill

Perhaps Ms Brennan can answer Senator Corrigan's question about home and the parents' role.

Ms Margot Brennan

Just to reiterate Senator Corrigan's comments about childhood psychology, the importance of a child feeling good about himself or herself, and bullying and so on can have a major impact. On that note also, children under the age of eight are unable to discern between real life and advertisements. Obviously we are particularly concerned about children in that age group, but also about children right up to the age of 16. The home is the biggest educator when it comes to nutrition. Equally we need to create a supportive environment for parents who are often living in a time-poor zone. We know that pester power has a major impact on choices even though it is not what the parents want to do. It goes back to the inverse pyramid where for every €1 spent on health promotion up to €500 is spent on advertising products. There is a disproportionate spend on health as opposed to on advertising unhealthy foods. Our biggest challenge is to create that supportive environment for parents. We need to continue to educate them as role models for children. In a home with one or both overweight parents, the ethos is more likely to create overweight children.

Pester power is an interesting concept. I agree wholeheartedly with the points about creating a positive and supportive environment for parents. Undoubtedly young children who have been impacted by advertisements put pressure on parents for a particular brand. Does that not make the case all the stronger for investigating whether we can do something to harness the power of advertising and marketing to help create that supportive environment for parents? Obviously it would be considerably easier for them if younger children picked up on the message that this is something good to do. Perhaps we can use the pester power in a very positive way. I take the point about the under eights. My concern is that while they are the ones most influenced they are also the ones most dependent on someone else doing things for them. We need to include the adults and their environment. Much of the time the under eights will not access this food by themselves.

Ms Margot Brennan

I agree fully with the Senator. There are two examples of this that have been very successful. The first is the Food Dudes programme, where characters were used to promote fresh foods and vegetables. It was run initially as a pilot scheme in schools. It is hoped to roll it out on a broader basis. It allowed children to taste new fruit and vegetables. It was promoted in a fun sense to children.

What is that called?

Ms Margot Brennan

Food Dudes. While it is still only in its second year and will run for three years, the Little Steps campaign is currently in place. I hear my own children saying "My body is a temple." It is starting to chip away. The Senator is correct. If we can use more of that for health promotion messages it would be very useful.

Ms Maureen Mulvihill

However, it is a major uphill task. The inverted food pyramid illustrated the challenge because of the scale of the funding. We do not have funding. We have never been able to afford television advertising as a charity. Little Steps was a combined HSE and safefood campaign. The funding for Food Dudes comes from the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. We would alert Government and our colleagues in the Department of Health and Children for increased funding, but it is a very difficult climate at the moment.

Our chair of the heart alliance, Mr. Kennedy, would like to make some comments on alcohol and some other points.

Mr. David Kennedy

Alcohol was not the main point, but I will return to that in a moment. Senator O'Toole asked whether advertising to children was effective. I have a background in marketing by international companies. The main evidence I wouldadvance is that these are not foolish people. They must justify their advertising dollars and euro carefully. They spend hundreds of millions every year on advertising and know what they are doing. They are not wasting their time or their money.

There is plenty of objective scientific evidence about the effectiveness of advertising, some of which is referenced in the material we have sent to the committee. The World Health Organization, in particular, has come out strongly on this, as has the World Health Assembly. There is no question but that the money spent is being well focused and directed.

Alcohol is not part of our brief, as such, but I take the point about whether, in looking at restrictions on advertising to young people, alcohol will be included. Speaking personally, I absolutely agree with that. It almost needs no argument in view of what we see in the community at large concerning the impact of alcohol. That is not formally part of our brief, however, so I can only touch on that briefly.

Another question was what we can do as a small country, but I think that has partly been answered. There are plenty of things we can do. First, we have our own responsibilities in Ireland to do what we can. It is not appropriate for us to shuffle off our responsibilities elsewhere and say that we are too small in the overall scene. We have responsibilities and we must take them seriously. The analogy with the smoking ban is a good one because specific initiatives were taken by Ireland, which led the way in Europe. The heart alliance was behind that campaign against smoking in public areas. We were supportive of the initiative taken by the Minister. It was helpful to have all the organisations involved in the heart alliance strongly behind that initiative and was seen as positive by the Government at the time. We are speaking on behalf of 27 organisations which are affiliated to the heart alliance, all of which are interested in one way or another in promoting healthy hearts. We are stating strongly that we can take initiatives here, which are specific to Ireland and fit in appropriately with international initiatives. That is the right way to go.

Ms Maureen Mulvihill

I will move on to some of Deputy Mattie McGrath's questions, including who will pay for such monitoring. I suppose it is a question about the level. The legislation will have in-built monitoring and will be part of the statutory brief. As regards the Internet, commissioning of such monitoring as a start or an audit of an academic institute would not be highly expensive on an ongoing basis. It could be done inter-sectorally, which is something the Department of Health and Children is trying to do under the obesity plan. Perhaps that could be brought to that group and discussed further, but it would not be a very expensive initial exercise to undertake.

Some work was done in Australia on policies, which was commissioned by the Government of Western Australia. It examined the different policies as regards cost, effectiveness, reach, practicality and feasibility. It is available in a document which is part of the child obesity project. I can send it on to the committee. We examined policies and in the document mapped out that piece of work. It was a modelling exercise which looked at improved cycle paths, walkways and better connectability within neighbourhoods. It involved huge reformation in transport planning. It looked at food marketing and more radical medical interventions, including drugs.

As regards controls on television advertising, it showed the highest reach and lowest cost. Because it was a wider reach, its effectiveness was not as radical as drugs intervention. For example, we have seen some of them on the market which help people to lose weight. On the other hand, there were no side effects and it had a wide reach with low cost. Transport, building and the environment are costly and there is differing evidence as to their effectiveness. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is doing a lot of work on cycle paths but there is some evidence to show that we are still not culturally shifting our physical activity habits to make use of them. It is a complex question and I do not think there is an easy answer. I will send a copy of that work to the joint committee.

Another question asked what we are doing with food companies and what those companies are doing. I will give my reply but some of my colleagues might like to answer that question also. We have met with the food and drinks industry, including independent companies, and have heard what they are saying. As regards legislative restrictions versus voluntary industry codes, they have one position while we have another. That is the position internationally. Frankly, it will take Government initiatives to bring them on board. Monitoring what industry is doing will help them to act in a more responsible way. At European level, we have seen the complexity in nutrition labelling proposals, including a radical number — approximately 1,200 — of recommendations or changes concerning that legislation. In certain areas therefore we have a long way to go before we can sing from the same hymn sheet.

As regards the Deputy's question on employment, I am not an expert in this area. However, evidence from the United Kingdom shows that when there are cutbacks and other restrictions on advertising alcohol, the industry redirects its funding and marketing. It may also look to reformulation, as was shown in the UK, rather than the issue being one of job losses. Does anybody else want to comment on those questions?

Ms Margot Brennan

I certainly agree with Ms Mulvihill's point that we are coming from two very different angles. We welcome product reformulation and the broader choice that many companies are now providing. Equally, however, our opinions are different when it comes to advertising. We acknowledge that many positive steps are being taken by industry, although we differ on this one.

We were lobbied quite heavily by the breakfast cereal representatives. They had a strong argument that every child should be encouraged to eat breakfast. They said breakfast cereal is an easy way to get food into them. That is a strong argument and while we should not lose that strength, we should find a way of saying "You can sell breakfast cereal, but it must not have too much salt or sugar, and you cannot sell it as breakfast cereal if you are over the limit". Is that naive or can we simply do that? In that way, they could be encouraged to advertise.

Ms Margot Brennan

I would make a different suggestion. All breakfast cereal companies have healthier options within their product range. It comes back to our point about using advertising to promote health. Let us focus on advertising the healthier ones to children, making them as attractive from an advertising point of view as the other type of products, and bringing them into healthier ranges in line with product reformulation. Breakfast is a very important meal of the day, however. Anyone who eats breakfast is less likely to put on weight in the long term. Let us turn it around, however, and ask the industry to focus on its healthier product range.

That is one way of looking at it. I am just asking for a response from the witnesses if we have a simple law that states unhealthy breakfast cereals may not be sold to children, and specifies the quantities. Is that a possibility?

Ms Janis Morrissey

In a sense, we have already gone down that road at EU level with the introduction of nutritional health claims legislation. The food companies will not be able to have a health or nutrition claim on the food label, unless their products are below a certain threshold on saturated fat, sugar and salt. This is a model that could be extended to the food marketing element. That has not yet been finalised at EU level, but that is the way it is going at the moment.

Ms Maureen Mulvihill

The nutrient profiling, which is a kind of assessment of foods, would answer that question. It would guide parents to the healthier food options, and there are many healthy options in the breakfast cereal category. That is part of the legislation restricting the advertising of foods that can be categorised as not being appropriate, as the marketing of other, healthier food products would be permitted.

The presumption of that approach is that people are educated to know what is good for their children. That is not always the case, and price is a big factor. We all know that the incidence of obesity is much greater among poor people. Can we simply tell the food companies that they may sell their breakfast cereal, but they cannot overdo the salt and sugar, or else they will be fined? Is it possible to do that?

Ms Maureen Mulvihill

It is possible and it is being done in Sweden and especially in Québec. The companies are not allowed target children at all through advertising. I apologise if that does not answer the Deputy's question.

The Deputy is right about price. Many of the foods that are high in sugar and salt tend to be cheaper. In fairness to the industry, including the breakfast cereal sector, that positive work has been on salt reduction in conjunction with the Food Safety Authority. We are also signed up, through the Department of Health and Children, to an EU commitment to reduce salt in mainstream food products such as bread, cereals and processed meats. Work is occurring on a positive level. The FSA and these sectors are doing more. Sugar and fat will be the next areas to be examined. Product formulation, shelf life and price all make it a complex situation.

Ms Margot Brennan

The only legislation currently in existence relates to nutritional claims. Unless there is a nutritional claim, such as a product being high in calcium or fibre, there is no obligation to have controls on anything.

Ms Maureen Mulvihill

The Deputy's point on education links with the Chairman's questions. I have been working in this field for 17 years and I find it difficult to go into a supermarket and try to decipher what is in a product and what is healthy and unhealthy. Not only do we have to read the label, but we also have to weigh it up in the context of the overall food diet. We use the food pyramid extensively as a guide. There is wide recognition by the public of that, but it predominantly relates to fresh foods like meat, bread and fruit and vegetables. It is complex when we get into the processed area and the foods that are high in fats and sugars, such as snack foods and convenience foods. Education is important and the HSE works extensively with parent and community groups, and within the school there is much greater emphasis on the area now. However, it is still extremely challenging just to leave the issue to education alone.

Industry adheres to a voluntary code at primary school level. We did some research and found that most primary schools have a health policy in place and do not have vending machines. That is positive, but we also did a piece of research at post-primary level. We surveyed over 800 second level schools and we found that about 48% had vending machines. There was a high level of confectionary sales, at about 80%. The sale of foods to children is a form of marketing, because the food is packaged in a certain way. Price is also important, as the snack bar is often cheaper than a piece of fruit, and a child might want two pieces of fruit to be satisfied.

We should have a fat levy.

Ms Maureen Mulvihill

Is that a question or a statement?

It is a suggestion.

Ms Maureen Mulvihill

I will come back to that after finishing my answer on the schools. I will defer to my colleagues on the area of what goes on outside the school. In our survey that was conducted by NUIG, it was raised as a big issue. Teachers and principals are very keen to create a more protective environment, and called for more support from the Government to help them provide adequate funding for sports equipment and computers, so that they are not reliant on income from tuck shops and vending machines. They also called for more support in a code of practice for schools. They are willing to change, but they find it a challenge due to the disposable income available to the second level student who is working and who can shop locally.

Ms Janis Morrissey

The health message may be promoted within the school environment where the teachers have control, but outside the school gates the message can be directly undermined by billboard advertising and by the products available in local shops. It demonstrates the need to look at the environment as a whole. While there are pockets, be they in the home or the school, where healthy eating is promoted, the majority of the environment in which children live promotes unhealthy eating. It is a constant battle for teachers and parents to promote healthy eating. While schools may feel frustrated by what is happening outside the school gates, it is outside their control.

Ms Margot Brennan

As the home is the biggest educator, most of our focus on health promotion is at the preschool stage. We know that if we can get children eating healthily at a younger age, we are more likely to keep them on the straight and narrow as they get older. The earlier we can start healthy eating, the better. Some of the weaning practices in this country are really unusual and do not promote health. We start at an early stage, and even though breast feeding is the best choice, current maternity leave arrangements do not even support that. When a woman is pregnant, she is at her most receptive to take on board new messages and new information, especially on health. That is a very opportune time to start that education and continue it through the life stages.

Ms Maureen Mulvihill

There was a recommendation in the obesity task force report that a fat tax was an area that the Department of Finance might examine. I would prefer to look at incentivising the healthier foods. We have not looked at it in this country. Other countries have found that taxing food is a very complex area. It can be regressive as it affects those worst off, because they end up paying more for unhealthy food, and this gives them less scope to make a healthier choice. Very often, the problem in disadvantaged areas is about accessibility to the fresher foods and the lack of skills and time to be able to cook. It is a complex argument.

I am in favour of incentivisation and of the food industry promoting the healthier food products. One of the leading brands of soft drinks spends a massive amount on advertising its main product line. It has a range of healthier drinks but the marketing spend on these, relative to the leading brand, is very small. These are the issues we face. The company has these healthier choices but are they marketed? No. That would answer the problem of children going into the tuck shop at school or the shop outside the school. If the healthier products were marketed more, the child or adult would be more likely to choose that option. Regardless, we must restrict and control advertising of foods high in fat, sugar and salt to protect children.

I thank Ms Mulvihill and her colleagues for the presentation and for comprehensively answering all the questions. I wish the Irish Heart Foundation every success in educating our children and their parents, which is a challenge.

The joint committee adjourned at 11 a.m. until noon on Tuesday, 14 July 2009.
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