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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES debate -
Wednesday, 13 Oct 2010

Budgetary Requirements: Discussion with Broadcasting Authority of Ireland

I welcome Mr. Michael O'Keeffe and Mr. Ciarán Kissane from the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI. Before we begin, I remind everyone of the privilege conditions. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the joint committee. If they are directed by it to cease giving evidence in respect of a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I invite Mr. O'Keeffe to make his presentation.

Excuse me, but will Mr. O'Keeffe be reading from what was circulated to the committee?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

I will be referring to it.

I was wondering whether we could go straight to the questions and answers session, seeing as how the document has been circulated.

We handed out copies of Mr. O'Keeffe's presentation.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

I have circulated it.

We have all had time to read it.

We have not read it.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

I shall not read it all, but I will go through a few of its elements.

I thank the Chairman and members for their invitation. Although it was sent to the chairman of the authority and me, the chairman is not available because of commitments in Belfast, as I explained to the clerk. He is keen to attend a meeting of the committee, though, so it is my suggestion that I liaise with the clerk to come up with a date that is suitable for the committee and us. I emphasise that his absence is due to the shortness of the notice ahead of today's meeting, but he is anxious to attend a meeting and answer any questions the committee asks.

As Senator Walsh mentioned, we have circulated copies of the statement, so I will run through some of its key points, after which we will be happy to take members' questions.

The introduction sets out the statement of strategy. As far as the authority is concerned, the statement will be our most critical policy document for the next three years. The budget is inextricably linked with the strategy. The strategy's content provides a framework for the objectives and workplan of the organisation and the budget which supports the activities to be undertaken. This is an important dimension of our current position. I would argue that these are standard business planning provisions, in that one would not finalise a budget unless one had agreed the period's objectives and workplan.

The second paragraph of the introduction provides the background to the proposed development of the strategy. I wish to emphasise a number of key factors. As members are aware, the full authority was not in place at the time, in that the nominees of the joint Oireachtas committee did not join until February. A clear policy decision was made by the five members appointed in October by the Minister that they would not undertake policy development work until the full complement of members was in place. This is an important dimension of the background. The first meeting attended by the four members nominated through the process undertaken by this committee occurred in February and it was March when they considered their first major policy issue, namely, the strategy development. Many of the Act's provisions were made on the basis that a full authority would be in place, but it was not full for a certain period. This impacted on the way in which we planned and undertook our work.

As obliged, we ran a tendering process for two major pieces of work and commenced the strategy development in June. The first work was a detailed stakeholder consultation and the second was an economic and environmental analysis. These pieces of work were conducted in the June-August period, after which we moved into phase 2. That will be completed by the end of this month and we will put the draft strategy out for consultation in early November. In our initial plans, we had hoped to have the draft strategy by the end of September. The budget would have followed it, as the draft strategy would have needed the support of a budget. When we wrote to the Minister in May, this was our ambition. There is no question that it was an ambitious timeframe. There was demand from the industry for us to consult widely on this strategy, given that it was such a key piece of work. Of its nature, the consultancy we undertook involved many people. One of the challenges brought up in the process was a simple logistical one, namely, the availability of key people during the summer to complete the work. People simply were not there — they were on holidays and came back. Rather than miss anyone in the consultation process, our desire was to engage with everybody. When I came back from holidays in late August it was clear there was further work to be done to complete the strategy. We made a decision at that point, supported by the authority. There was an authority meeting in early September and we made a decision at executive level to push back the completion of the strategy to the end of October. In our view it followed that the budget would also move back from that perspective. We shall now run until the end of October. As I stated, there is a meeting on 26 October which will address both the three-year budget and the strategy. That will be approved at the meeting and will be put out to public consultation in early November, as required under the Act.

I move to the three-year budget planning exercise. Our main focus, as mentioned several times in the document, is that it should be a robust, thorough exercise. We were asked to do as much both by this committee when we attended here last March, and by the industry at a number of meetings. What the industry seeks most during this period of great difficulty for the sector is to have as much certainty as possible in terms of what its members are likely to have to pay to fund the authority over the next three-year period. That is the thinking we have been engaged in during the finalisation of the budget.

There are a number of relevant points. It is the first full year of the authority so there is not as much certainty in a new organisation as there would be in an older one. We have introduced a much greater focus on achieving savings and have given commitments in this regard. We were asked many questions when we attended this committee last March and also have given commitments to the sector. In addition, as an organisation we have commitments under the Croke Park agreement to look for efficiencies and savings. We place a great focus on that in terms of what we have achieved.

A statutory deadline is in place — we acknowledge we have missed that. However, as I argue in the submission, we will have a much better and more robust document that will be of greater benefit to the sector. I emphasise that important point now, as I did in the document. It ties in with commitments we gave in the past, both to the committee and the sector.

Currently, we are finalising the document. There will be two days of meetings before we finalise the budget document that will go to the board on Tuesday week. We have detailed meetings with the managers in each area who have been asked to look at every line of spend they have and to look at the statute and identify what is absolutely required over the period in order to make the document as robust as possible. That is ongoing. In parallel, we are looking at the forecast spend for the current year, again to give us a sense of where things stand.

There was an article in The Sunday Times last Sunday — I know I should not pay too much attention to what is said in newspapers — that suggested we had already reached the budget we had set ourselves for the current year. I wish to make it clear that is not true. The writer got our budget wrong: it is actually €5.7 million for which we have levied the sector — he said it was €6 million and that we had reached it already. I state for the record of the joint committee that our budget was €5.65 million and we will achieve savings on that figure for 2010. Our outturn for the full year will come in under that figure because of the savings regime we have introduced. It is important to make that point. The document will look at the outturn for 2010 and provide a detailed, line by line budget for 2011 and will consider a high-level budget for 2012-13. The purpose is to give certainty, which is what the sector has requested.

In terms of our engagement with the stakeholders, when we made the decision in late August we recognised we would be pushing the budget back for a month while there was an expectation from stakeholders we would have it in place. We recognise that in the context of their planning it was important for us to address these issues so we arranged to contact what we describe as the key industry players, namely, RTE, TG4, TV3 and Independent Broadcasters of Ireland, IBI, which represents the commercial radio sector, in particular local radio, regarding our approach to development and the revised approach we were taking. No concern was expressed about the approach and from the reaction we got at the time it appeared they were happy with and understood the logic of it. That is important and in the second part of the submission, I addressed what we said to them. We met with the IBI more than six weeks ago, on 1 September, and informed it how the budget stood and our plans for it, and also advised that there would be very few changes in our costs. One thing we told IBI members was that we had received a letter from the Department concerning the employment control framework for each organisation. People will be familiar with this. Each public sector organisation has now been given, in effect, its numbers for the next three-year period. At the time we had greater certainty about what the numbers were likely to be and the Department indicated to us that our numbers were set at a maximum as those we had when we were the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland, BCI.

How many staff?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

There are part-time and full-time equivalents. There is a total of 42, combining both full-time and part-time staff.

There are 36 full-time staff.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

It translates into 36 full-time equivalents and we were given those numbers. We are down by three managers in the current year. One has left, one is on sick leave and one returned only this week from maternity leave. In the current year we have been working with reduced numbers and resources. We advised the IBI of that at the time. Most important, we advised it that our budget was not likely to change dramatically, in particular in the areas of finance, governance and people.

I refer members to the presentation we made to the committee on 31 March in which we broke down the budget of the BAI. It was €6 million but included depreciation of €3.65 million which we did not include, for levy purposes. The finance, governance and people area came in at €3.9 million and makes up the vast majority of the costs. Operational activity is €770,000 and communication and sectoral development is €985,000. On 1 September we stated to the IBI that there was little or no change to the main subhead of €3.9 million and that if there were to be any changes, which would be modest, they would be in the operational and communication and sectoral development areas and would come to approximately €1.6 million. Those figures might vary a little but they might go down as well as up. That was clear and it was my understanding that at the end of that meeting, the IBI was clear about why we were doing what we were doing and that there would be very little change made to the budget we had. That is an important point. We had no further contact from the IBI about this issue.

Another issue we addressed at the meeting was the need for greater communication with the IBI. We recognised there had not been the level of communication there might have been. We discussed the notion of having regional meetings. Some local radio people had said to us that in recent years as we became a different organisation they had missed the one-to-one engagement with us that might have been part and parcel of what we did in the past. Obviously, because of resources and other issues we cannot do that to the same level now. This notion of regional meetings was discussed and agreed at that meeting. The only contact we had since 1 September was a discussion and agreement on the first two of those meetings, the first of which is scheduled for Galway on 1 November, which will deal with all of the regional stations from the west and north-west areas. The second will be in Dublin on 27 November and will take in the Dublin and eastern stations. There was no mention of any concern around the budget.

I am aware that criticisms of our approach were subsequently made to members of the Oireachtas joint committee, and I was genuinely surprised at this. It came out of the blue to me and the people who were at the meeting with us. We were not aware that there was a problem with the approach we took. We thought they were very much with us on that. We then received the press release last week from Deputy McManus, and I refer to that in the submission. The main contention in that is that our approach is damaging local radio. I do not believe it, and while I accept this might be a view that was given to the Deputy, I fundamentally disagree with it. I believe the approach is the correct one, but I am sure we will discuss that here. I have spoken to individual members of the stations in recent weeks, and maybe they are saying one thing to me and something else to others. They do not appear to have any issue, but perhaps I am not speaking to the right people. Maybe there are others who have concerns about this.

My only concern is that from 1 September until we received that press release on 28 September, we had no contact and no sense that there was an issue here. It was a pity that IBI did not lift the phone to say, in effect: "Look, our members are not happy with this. You should do your budget because if you don't we're going to make a bit of noise." Nobody did that, and as I said we were completely taken aback that there was an issue. However, that is something we need to discuss, perhaps, with IBI rather the committee, and I acknowledge that.

Our approach is the correct one and I absolutely stand over it in developing this budget. I strongly believe it will be the approach that will be of best benefit to the sector in these difficult times. The sector is facing difficult times and it is challenged. The very nature of the levy challenges the sector, and I recognise that. I deal with the sector on a daily basis, so I am not understating the position. However, the approach we are taking is right and when we have completed that, sent out our draft strategy and finalised the budget, the work we have put in will be evident to people. When that is done our chairman will be happy to attend the committee to discuss this further.

I am happy to take any questions.

I welcome Mr. O'Keeffe. I regret that the chairman is not here, but I certainly believe we should take up the offer because it is important that he is here.

I have a couple of questions, but first, as a regulatory authority why does the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI, believe it can break the law? I want an answer to that before I ask my questions.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

I have set out the rationale for why we did what we did. There is a whole range of dates in the statute as proposed. As the Deputy knows, the legislation was enacted in July last year. The BAI was established on 1 October. There were five members of the authority and the other four comprising nominees from this committee did not take their places until February. Inevitably, that impacted on the dates set out in statute for a whole range of things. I do not accept that is breaking the law. The Deputy may have a different view, and I respect that.

Anybody looking at this would have a different view. The BAI is a regulatory authority. Its job is to set standards for the broadcasting industry and ensure that others comply with the law. Therefore, I am not satisfied with Mr. O'Keeffe's answer. This is quite a serious matter. I shall just explain to him, because it seems to me that he does not quite understand the situation here.

This is not a question of the IBI squealing behind Mr. O'Keeffe's back. It is about our job as Oireachtas Members to ensure that the law is complied with and that authorities we establish comply with the law. We were tasked with a particular job, to fill the places and to come forward with proposals. There was a certain requirement on us, and we complied with the law. There was a certain requirement on the broadcasters and they complied with the law. Perhaps Mr. O'Keeffe might reflect on that.

On the questions I have, it is very hard for any of us to comprehend why it was not possible to have a budget plan, as was clearly stated in law. An undertaking was given by the authority. When the Bill was passing through the House, there was no question of not being able to produce the budget plan. It was discussed at length. In fact, some of the members here believed that to give the authority until September was quite a long lead-in time. We understood that this was a new authority and so that was the agreed lead-in time.

Mr. O'Keeffe says the final members were appointed in February. However, the process did not start until June. He will probably tell me there was tendering and all the rest. That seems to me——

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

There was a tendering process.

Yes, but that seems to me to be a considerable length of time, when the authority had a very clear deadline.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

It was not——

I am sorry, but people have to work within the law. I do not understand, and perhaps Mr. O'Keeffe could clarify. I have worked as an architect and know the tendering process in building, but I do not understand why it takes from February to June to go to the tendering process.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

It was not February to June. Just to clarify, as I said they were appointed in February, but the first meeting that discussed the strategy and agreed the approach to its development was at the end of March. The tendering process ran for two months, throughout April and May, an eight-week period, which included Easter, and I believe that is reasonable. We would have been back here before the committee, had we not run a tendering process. In the event, we would have breached that.

It seems to me there is a question there about the authority. Its members all knew the deadline. They had all been appointed and should have ensured that the tendering process was correct — I have no problem with that — and that it was on time. They had a duty to ensure that happened, but we shall raise that with the chairman.

I am very relieved to hear Mr. O'Keeffe say the authority is within budget, because I saw the article. I did not know anything about that, but I am very relieved to hear that the BAI is within budget. However, I have a horrible feeling that perhaps the reason the BAI is within budget is because it has not completed the work required of it. Perhaps Mr. O'Keeffe might discuss that, somewhat.

In terms of an issue that has been raised with the Minister and the authority, and which was the subject of much controversy, there were two points. One was about the levy, to which I believe, there was a commonsense solution.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

That is correct.

The other was in relation to the legacy issue, over €1.3 million. At the time the Minister said: "I said we'll have to examine ways". Just to remind ourselves — the money was taken from reserves the authority held from the old broadcasting commission, so it was not as if it was in debt to the banks. The BAI had a reserve and was able to transfer it over, and this kept the machinery going. Anybody who believes that local radio is not in trouble and under stress needs to be disabused of that notion. I know of job losses. I can see them in my community and I hear about them from others.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

I deal with them every day and am well aware of that.

I accept Mr. O'Keeffe's word on that, but let us remember what the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, said when he was asked about the legacy issue:

I said we we'll have to examine ways in which we can help the industry as much as possible, including whether we can find a means of covering the last few months of last year in a way where we are not hitting the industry...There is no instinct here to hit an industry. There is as much interest in protecting and supporting local radio so that it thrives and survives. That is what we are all setting out to do. We want things well regulated because this is in the interests of the industry as well as the viewing listening public.

That is a strong statement from the Minister. All of us took it in good faith and the message to us was the legacy issue would be resolved. I did not hear anything from Mr. O'Keeffe to confirm that he listened to the Minister and that he has been able to deal with the issue in a way that will not hit local radio, in particular. Perhaps he will confirm that the Minister's policy will be followed and we will not see broadcasters hit again for this money that does not have to be paid. Everything was going along nicely because the reserve was there. It was used wisely and, therefore, let us move on. I would be grateful if Mr. O'Keeffe confirmed that.

I am a little intrigued. He stated the chairman notified the Minister in May that the authority had difficulties and it would not meet its statutory requirement. At the end of August, the information was extended to others.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

We extended that to the sector, industry players.

It might have been a courtesy to extend that information to us.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

I take the point.

The committee dealt with the Bill and members went through it line by line. I found out through the IBI, although a parliamentary question was also tabled and this information tumbled out of the cupboard.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

I accept that.

That is not the way for a regulatory authority to operate. I do not want to tell Mr. O'Keeffe how to do his job, as I am sure he is well able to do it, but the evidence is that the record in this regard is not good and the authority is not compliant with the law, which is a basic requirement of any body, but particularly a body that sets standards for others.

In the reply to the parliamentary question, a commitment was given to produce the budget plan by the end of October. The authority will not have a meeting until then. Is that correct?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

We have a meeting on 26 October.

How can Mr. O'Keeffe be sure his board will agree everything in the budget plan at that meeting to meet the commitment made to the Minister?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

We will meet on 26 October and we have given a commitment that we will have a budget approved before the end of October.

Mr. O'Keeffe is, therefore, presuming the authority will simply rubber-stamp it.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

No, I am not. I am sure there will be lively and robust debate, as there always is, but we will approve a three-year budget.

When before that date is the board meeting again?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

The documentation relevant to the meeting will be submitted a week in advance of the meeting.

How often does the board meet?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

It meets generally once a month. The meeting this month has been pushed back because of these two issues.

Is Mr. O'Keeffe saying there was not a meeting in September?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

There was a meeting in September but the October meeting has been pushed back by a couple of weeks to allow us to complete this week.

The normal meeting has been pushed back.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

That was with the agreement of the authority, which met twice in September. They had a special day to discuss the strategy. They are part-time people and they spent a full day on 20 September to agree the general approach to the strategy. Further work and consultation is being carried out in order that a document will come to them on 26 October. They took a view when they met on 20 September that 11 October, the original date for the meeting, was too tight.

I welcome Mr. O'Keeffe. The authority has 36 full-time employees. What is the position regarding replacements? He mentioned that one person had left the organisation. Will he or she be replaced?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

The procedure under the employee control framework the Department has given us is that it has set our number, which is 36 full-time equivalents, and if somebody leaves, for whatever reason, we must make a business case to the Department, which then has to go to the Department of Finance, to replace that person. The maximum we will ever have from a full-time equivalent point of view is 36.

Is the authority, therefore, not caught by the embargo?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

At the moment, we are. The embargo is to the end of the year and the employee control framework applies from 1 January 2011 for the following two years.

The Chairman should note that the Department is not maintaining the embargo, which is odd in the current economic climate.

With regard to salaries, my understanding is the organisation uses the grades applicable in the Civil Service such as EOs, HEOs, APs and so on.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

That is correct.

Are the salaries at the same level that apply in the Civil Service?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

Yes.

Were salaries reduced in line with the public service reduction this year?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

Yes.

Does the pension levy apply as well?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

Yes.

Were increments paid this year?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

I think increments are generally added.

What is the total for increments? I acknowledge Mr. O'Keeffe may not have that off the top of his head.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

I would have to check that.

Will Mr. O'Keeffe let us know the total cost of increments? It is an anomaly in a scenario when other people the authority is dealing with have experienced wage reductions.

The authority will be under budget this year which is welcome. Its budget is €5.7 million and I suggested at a previous meeting that it should be €4.5 million. Tight constraints need to be put in place in order that management is challenged to find efficiencies within the organisation. Mr. O'Keeffe said he was identifying efficiencies in line with the Croke Park agreement. What areas is he concentrating on? How optimistic is he that he will achieve them? What is his cost reduction target?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

We are a non-commercial semi-State body attached to the Department. The Croke Park issue is being addressed on a departmental and agency-wide basis. We are part of that. We have submitted to that but, ultimately, the proposals we are putting in are being taken in the whole with the Department.

Is Mr. O'Keeffe waiting for the Department to tell him the areas?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

No, we have identified areas where we believe there can be efficiencies.

Will he outline them? What savings are likely to be effected? For example, will it be €500,000 or 10%, 15% or 20%?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

I could not answer at this point. This exercise is only being undertaken with the Department at present.

The Croke Park agreement was passed in June. At this stage, there is no target or identification of what the BAI might achieve and where it might achieve it.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

The process with ourselves has only begun in the past two weeks. We have engaged in that and my understanding is there have been a number of meetings. We are taking part in that process with the Department.

When will Mr. O'Keeffe be in a position to answer the questions I am putting to him?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

I believe the Department is finalising its plans for that in the next couple of weeks.

Is it correct that the Department is putting the brakes on the authority and Mr. O'Keeffe has to wait for its guidance rather than taking the initiative?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

We have made proposals but we should be in a position shortly to address that. I suggest that the next time we are back in here we will be——

Perhaps the committee should consider this from the Department's point of view. We need savings quickly across all services and management should be empowered. Nobody should be in a better position to identify savings in Mr. O'Keeffe's organisation than him, together with his management team. If the Department has its finger in the pie and this is not enhancing the process, the committee should invite the Secretary General in to discuss that because we are five months into the Croke Park agreement and everybody is astonished that letters, which I have seen, were only issued by the implementation bodies in September, three months after the agreement was passed. That does not reflect the concern of the average person about the general economic climate and where we are going. The cost of our public service is a huge imposition on the economy. We need to get much more focused and energised within it. I am surprised at the answer.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

There is a number of strands to be achieved in savings and efficiencies. We will achieve savings from the budget that we presented in March. That has nothing to do with the Croke Park agreement. It is our internal work.

What amount of savings will be made? Are we talking about €500,000?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

I cannot say that at this stage.

The BAI must have some broad parameters. I assume it does monthly accounts.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

We are doing forecasts at the moment.

Does it do monthly accounts?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

Yes.

Within that, is there a column for forecasts?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

We do forecasts, yes.

Is it up to date and budgeted for the remainder of the year?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

Yes.

What does that predict?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

Exercises are being done at the moment.

What did the September or August accounts predict?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

We review the account situation in July and the budget exercise I spoke of earlier is now looking at——

I am asking a specific question. We are agreed that the BAI does monthly accounts. Has it the August accounts done?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

We are presented at management level with quarterly accounts. The last quarterly accounts were presented in July.

So it does not do monthly accounts.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

Monthly accounts are done, but at management level for the months of September and October, we are focusing our activities on finalising the three year budget. As part of that process, we are completing the forecast for the current year.

I am not happy with that answer. I am gathering from the answer that the BAI does monthly accounts, but they do not go to management. Is it correct that Mr. O'Keeffe does not get them?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

No, I get them. We have obligations to our board.

I accept that.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

We have to report to our board.

I am not looking for the exact figure. Are we talking about hundreds of thousands of euro, or tens of thousands, or just thousands of euro?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

We could be talking about a number of hundreds of thousands or euro.

That is fine. I am happy with that. Has the BAI set a target that its three year budget will not be above the €5.6 million for this year?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

We have set no targets. There are four key areas of expenditure. The figure will be largely the same for finance, governance and people, because our costs do not change there. That was the largest bulk of our costs.

Is that the €.3.9 million?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

Yes. There may be some savings in that area, but it represents the largest bulk of our costs. The area is where we have less certainty is the operations side, which is the policy compliance contracts awards. They link to the activities set out in the Act.

Is that €770,000?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

In the current year, we put that at €770,000. The final area is communications and sectoral development. About €600,000 of that represents money that goes back into the sectoral development. We could cut that tomorrow. I do not know if we would undertake our functions correctly, but we could do it. We take a policy view that we should not do it. If the worst came to the worst, that is an area that could be radically reduced. However, there would be an outcry from that sector were we to do that.

That is about €5.3 million, so there is another €400,000 floating around. Can Mr. O'Keeffe identify it?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

The communications would include——

There is another €400,000 there.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

No. I have not broken that down yet. It is probably higher in sectoral development.

This committee's members are extremely anxious that the BAI does not operate above its figure for this year in any of the three years. That is a challenge, but we should embrace those challenges in the public service. We should try to reduce it to below €5 million. If I was lucky enough to be a Minister, I would set that target.

Mr. O'Keeffe spoke about the BAI and other organisations needing certainty. That is correct, but they also need certainty and cost efficiency in respect of the lowest possible levy that can be applied, and not to be above last year's figure. In the current climate, what Deputy McManus has said is absolutely correct. They are under horrendous pressure, as is every business here. The public service must share that and must not apply costs that have not been pruned to the absolute minimum.

What about the legacy issue?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

I intend to come back and address that.

I apologise for being late. I had another engagement. We had an opportunity to meet over the summer and I am grateful for that. What is the current status with the information campaign on DTT? Will the BAI carry any of the cost of that, or will it fall to RTE and the Department? Can Mr. O'Keeffe update us on the RTE public service statement? I thought it was supposed to be introduced by now, but nobody is able to give it to me.

ComReg is going to auction the spectrum for mobile phone companies in the next few months. Is there a case that when radio licences come up for review or renewal, they be auctioned instead and that there would be no broadcasting levy thereafter? The BAI would derive its funding from the sale of the licence and not from an annual levy.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

I am not sure the radio sector would be very keen on that.

It is a public asset. It belongs to us.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

That is true. It has certainly been raised in the past. It happens in other jurisdictions. We run what we call the "beauty parade" for licences and then the companies pay a levy. In other jurisdictions, it goes to whoever pays the highest amount. That may not find favour with the sector.

Deputy McManus asked a few questions. We introduced a revised work programme over the summer. It differs marginally from the work plan we would have submitted to the committee in March. I am quite happy to submit a copy of that to the committee. We are on target to achieve the priority activities of the work plan that we set ourselves. We had a list of priority and secondary activities in the plan, and the secondary activities would be achieved where resources permitted. We have not advanced as much with the secondary activities. We have also been given a number of other functions that have arisen since the summer, and these have required us to move other pieces of work further on. I will explain that in a moment, because they relate to DTT and the question asked by Deputy Varadkar. Even if the time lines are not quite what we set ourselves, the work programme we set ourselves is being completed.

The programme is set by law.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

I accept the Deputy's point on that.

We addressed the issue of the fourth quarter levy for 2009 at this famous meeting on 1 September. We said we are seeking the advice of the Comptroller and Auditor General. As members will be aware, the statute requires that we fund ourselves through a levy. We have sought advice on whether we are in a position to do that. There are a number of factors in this and I do not want to delay the committee too long on this point. We have a statutory obligation to be completely cashflow positive. We had to get a borrowing requirement from the Department of Finance to tie us over for the first year. That expires in March 2011. We must have repaid that borrowing facility during that period. We are obviously anxious that the levy would address that and the levy we are currently collecting will do so, but we need to be certain that we do not at any point fall into a cashflow negative situation.

It is important to remember that we levy in arrears and bearing in mind that the authority was established on 1 October, the first money we received from any broadcaster was at the end of April. Owing to the issue with budget, we did not issue levy invoices until 31 March and payments for those came in at the end of April. It was for the benefit of the sector that we would collect on an arrears basis rather than on an advance basis. However, that has had implications for our cashflow.

I do not accept the authority is charging in arrears given that it sent out the invoices in 2010.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

Yes. However, the money we received on 30 April would have been to cover the period from 1 January to 31 March. We had no cashflow coming in to cover that.

Do the broadcasters pay the levy every quarter?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

Yes, it is paid quarterly in arrears. There is a cashflow aspect to this. If we have to collect that at some point we are looking at ways and means of doing it in the most user-friendly way possible.

I do not believe that is what the Minister meant.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

I accept that.

Is Mr. O'Keeffe suggesting the authority will not comply with the Minister's policy in this regard?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

It is our desire not to burden the sector with this, but we must do that in the context of our requirement to be able to run the authority without going into deficit. We have been able to manage that up to now. We have given an undertaking that no invoices will be issued in the current year. When we do the review of levy paid versus outturn for 2010 taken together with a very good compliance level, we may be able to address that issue. However, we must do it in the context of all these factors — our cashflow situation and our requirement to end our borrowing arrangement with the Department of Finance. We are also awaiting an indication that the Comptroller and Auditor General is satisfied that what we are doing is within the law and within the rules and regulations of his office. It is something we are doing on an ongoing basis. We have given the sector an indication that everything we do is designed to reduce the payments they will need to make to us, but we need to take other factors into account.

Is Mr. O'Keeffe saying there will be a payment for the legacy?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

No, I am not saying that.

There may not be; it depends.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

I am saying the matter is under constant review and we are doing everything in our power to reduce or alleviate the request from the Minister from that point of view.

I thank Mr. O'Keeffe.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

As members know the commercial DTT process concluded without success in the summer. The requirement to start the RTE multiplex is in place and the intention is that there will be a trial test period for that starting very shortly with a view to a full launch in the middle of next year. There is a steering group, involving ComReg, ourselves, RTE, RTNL and the Department, and we are working towards the achievement of that. A number of additional pieces of work are being given to us. The one that is taking up a significant amount of our time is that RTE is planning a number of new services to be carried on the multiplex. Under the Act there is a requirement deriving from Europe to undertake a regulatory impact assessment and public value test in respect of those new services. We are engaged in that process which will take place in coming months.

The Minister has also asked us to consider the possibility of additional services that might be carried on the multiplex. At present it will include the existing RTE services, TG4, TV3 and 3e. As the multiplex can take a number of additional services we have been asked to undertake an exercise to ascertain if there is interest in other types of services which would be of interest to Irish audiences. We will be undertaking that in coming months.

What about the two that are named in legislation, the film channel and the ——

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

As part of the exercise we will undertake, we will seek to evaluate whether there is still an interest. Clearly one of them affects members — the Houses of the Oireachtas channel. The other affects the Irish Film Board. We will have discussions with both organisations to ascertain if there is any reality to that in the current climate or whether there might be something in the future — maybe a partnership. Those discussions will happen in the coming months. It is intended to have clarity on the line-up of channels to be carried on the PSB MUX by the end of the year or early in January. That is certainly the target we set ourselves on DTT. We have parked the issue of commercial DTT.

My question was whether the BAI would incur any of the costs for the public information campaign and other associated matters.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

We have not offered any funding. We have a role in that.

Has the authority been asked?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

We have not been asked directly.

This is very important. Even though industry groups do not like it, I believe most people in this House would be of the view that where an industry is regulated it should pay for the cost of being regulated. However, if the cost of DTT were passed on to the BAI, it would effectively be levying independent radio and television broadcasters and even RTE for the changeover to DTT, which really has nothing to do with their regulation. It is a Government decision to turn off analogue broadcasting and move to digital, which I support, but that has nothing to do with regulation, and the cost of it should not fall on broadcasters.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

We have not formally been requested to provide funds for the analogue switch-off campaign. Clearly it is an issue that will need to be——

Is there a possibility of it?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

I do not know. There will be a requirement for funding to support that campaign.

Does Mr. O'Keeffe agree that such funding should come from the Exchequer and not from a levy on the industry because it is not regulated?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

Certainly there is no provision in the Act. In some respects it is a policy matter for the Government and I will not go there.

Go on; we will not tell the Minister.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

We do not have the funds at present to support that.

The chairman of the BAI board stated there was a flaw in the legislation on DTT. Has the authority done any work on that and can Mr. O'Keeffe give us details of the proposal? Is it dealing with the Department on the matter?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

We have advised the Department that we believe there should be a mechanism in legislation — effectively a mediation process — in the event that there is a disagreement, which as the Deputy is aware was the case between RTNL and One Vision, the applicant that withdrew last May. There was a dispute on the costs but no mechanism in the Act to allow mediation.

I was aware of that.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

We have asked the Department to address that.

What is its response?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

It has not given a formal indication of its position at this point.

What mechanism would Mr. O'Keeffe like to have?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

There needs to be a formal mediation process. In the event that there is a dispute between two parties——

Should it be binding?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

During the process we had asked them to enter non-binding mediation so that either party could walk away if it was unhappy. At that point we were left in a position where we could not progress the matter any further. We suggested that legislation should be introduced to address it. I would leave it to the legislators to decide whether it should be binding or non-binding but the principle of mediation should be included.

How would that legislation be framed? Is it that the authority could require them to enter a mediation process?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

I will not frame the legislation but the principle of it would be that there would be a mediation process between parties in a dispute of that nature.

That sounds sensible.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

The Deputy asked about the public service statement. That has been submitted by RTE to the Minister. There is a requirement under the Act for it to be submitted to the authority for its view. It has now been submitted to the authority and we——

When was it submitted by the Minister?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

We would have received it in the past month. We intend to bring it to the authority in November. We have a meeting on 8 November and we will bring it to the authority at that point. The process then, as outlined in the Act, is that the authority responds to the Minister and he approves or otherwise the public service statement.

Is it a secret process or is there any public consultation on it?

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

My understanding is that under the Act, RTE is obliged to have engaged in public consultation prior to the submission of the document to the Minister.

Once it submits the document to the Minister it is——

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

Under the Act it is envisaged that the only consultation is with the authority, and then the Minister takes a view on that.

The public and the Oireachtas are consulted before it is written but not on the draft document.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

That is from my reading of the Act but I would need to look at that. I believe that is the process.

I know it is a legislative matter but it is shame that the public and the Oireachtas cannot discuss the public service statement until it has been already agreed.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

It is a legislative matter.

I thank Mr. O'Keeffe and Mr. Kissane for attending. They were given short notice of the meeting and we acknowledge that the chairman of the authority had another appointment. We will invite the two delegates to come before the committee again when the authority agrees its three year budget.

Mr. Michael O’Keeffe

We will be happy to come back before the committee.

If there is no other business we will adjourn until Wednesday, 20 October 2010.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.15 a.m. until 9.45 a.m. on Wednesday, 20 October 2010.
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