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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES debate -
Wednesday, 3 Nov 2010

Allocation and Uptake of 116 Numbers for Services of Social Value: Discussion

I welcome Ms Suzanne Costello, Mr. Brian Gaynor and Ms Carole Claridge of the Samaritans, Mr. Brendan Callaghan and Mr. Greg Heylin from the Department of Justice and Law Reform, and Ms Mary McLoughlin from the Office of the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs in the Department of Health and Children.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in regard to a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should neither criticise nor make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I call Ms Suzanne Costello to open the proceedings, and she is to be followed by Mr. Brendan Callaghan.

Ms Suzanne Costello

I thank the committee for affording an opportunity to the Samaritans to discuss the implementation of the telephone number 116 123. Before we talk about the issues involved in implementation, we believe it will be helpful to tell members a little about the work of the Samaritans in Ireland. As we know, the number of deaths from suicide in Ireland is unacceptably high. In 2009, 527 people took their lives by suicide. The impact is felt in every village, town and city.

The Samaritans' mission is to reduce emotional distress and the rate of suicide. We have been doing this work in the United Kingdom and Ireland for over 50 years, primarily by providing confidential, non-judgmental emotional support 24 hours per day, 365 days per year, by telephone, email and short message service and through face-to-face contact. Today's discussion will focus on the helpline only.

The service is provided in the Republic by 1,500 volunteers. They currently answer approximately 1,200 calls per day. Demand for the service has increased by approximately 10% since the beginning of this year and we have answered 310,000 calls to date this year. Most of the funding for the work in Ireland is raised from the public. We receive a core grant from the HSE and, from time to time, we receive project funding from the National Office for Suicide Prevention.

The Samaritans regard the establishment of the number 116 123 as a unique opportunity to reach out to more people experiencing emotional distress and suicidal thoughts. The board of trustees has made the number a priority for the entire organisation. Our research indicates that the actual and perceived cost of a telephone call can prevent people in distress from calling the Samaritans. This is particularly true in the case of some of the most vulnerable groups, namely, the young and those on lower incomes who rely on pay-as-you-go mobile phones. Making a possibly lifesaving telephone call can be beyond the financial means of many. In addition, our telephone numbers are not as widely known as we would like.

As an EU-wide, easy to remember number, 116 123 has the potential to be as universally known as the numbers 112 and 999. However, moving to a free-to-caller number presents major financial risks for Samaritans. If we move too quickly without managing these risks, we could financially cripple the charity. The board of trustees decided, therefore, to pilot the service in order to help us to better understand the risks and discover how they might be mitigated. The pilot scheme has been running in the United Kingdom since April. Although it is still early days, some valuable lessons have been learned. We are receiving more calls during daytime hours, callers are talking for longer and the number of calls from mobile phones is rising rapidly. All of this confirms our view that cost has been a barrier for some. Unfortunately, a small number of people are also abusing the serviceand we are also learning how to deal with this.

When we commenced the pilot project in the United Kingdom, we conducted a feasibility study of the 116 123 number in Ireland. We shared the findings with ComReg as part of our positive and ongoing relationship with it. The study concludes that we are operationally ready to deliver the 116 123 service with immediate effect. ComReg has allocated the 116 123 number to Samaritans because it is the only organisation in Ireland which meets the European Commission's minimum standards for the provision of a harmonised emotional support service. Our service actually exceeds the standards to which I refer, particularly in the context of the coverage it offers 24 hours a day, seven days a week. This means that no new work or investment is required in Ireland for the emotional support service to be provided. There are volunteers across the country who are delivering the service.

The study also concludes that we are technically ready and could begin accepting calls within five days. In May we completed the installation of a new telephony system that will allow us to receive 116 123 calls and distribute them efficiently to our branch network. This has been a major undertaking for our branches and volunteers. We would not have been able to achieve it without the support of Deputy Devins, former Minister of State with special responsibility for mental health issues, and a grant from the national lottery, facilitated by the Department of Health and Children. This major infrastructural upgrade also increased the resilience and capacity of the service, enabling us to meet the increasing demand generated as a result of the current economic environment. Although we did not know this at the time the decision was made, I acknowledge the foresight of Deputy Devins and the Department of Health and Children in providing support.

The major stumbling block in the implementation of the 116 123 service is call charges. As a result of the fact that the number is free to callers, Samaritans would be obliged to pay over €825,000 a year in additional call charges. That is simply unaffordable. Why is the cost so high? At present, callers dial our 1850 lo-call number. Samaritans should bear a per minute charge to receive these calls, but Eircom has always generously sponsored this for us and other charity helplines. It does so by absorbing the cost associated with calls that originate on its own network and by paying a per minute fee to mobile phone operators for 1850 calls which originate on their networks. It has informed us that it paid out over €500,000 to mobile phone operators last year for handling calls to charity helplines and indicated that it cannot continue this level of subsidy indefinitely.

Owing to the growth in the level of mobile phone ownership, the majority of calls to charity helplines now originate on mobile phone networks. Eircom is, therefore, paying increasing amounts of money to mobile phone operators which it does not recoup from charity service providers. It has published its charges in respect of 116 numbers, from which we have calculated that Samaritans will incur an average charge of 25 cent per minute to receive 116 123 calls. For the 3.3 million minutes a year during which we listen to people in distress, we would be presented with an annual phone bill of €825,000.

As the committee discussed on 6 October, the European Union designated 116 123 as a pan-European number of great social value and decided that it should be free to callers. However, it did not specify who should bear the cost. From the work we have carried out, it is clear that the European Union does not want to pay; national governments state they cannot pay; the regulators do not want to dictate who should pay, and the industry does not seem to want to pay. In such circumstances, responsibility for funding this vital service is falling wholly on the shoulders of a volunteer-led charity which raises most of its funding through public donations. We do not believe that is fair; neither do members of the public. More important, it is not realistic.

Being realistic, Samaritans will get nowhere if left to negotiate with mobile phone operators on an individual basis. The operators do not perceive the funding of 116 numbers as their responsibility. Even if they are sympathetic to our cause, they are not going to fund use of the 116 123 number for fear of the precedent this would set in respect of other existing and future 116 numbers. We do not expect any single organisation to bear the costs relating to the use of the 116 123 number. The best way forward is a shared solution. If the relevant Departments and agencies, the telecommunications industry and the 116 number providers come together, a sensible, sustainable funding solution will be found.

This meeting is a great opportunity to kick-start the process of bringing together the key stakeholders in order to reach the shared solution to which I refer. We would welcome members' support in identifying the organisations whih need to be involved and getting their decision-makers around the table to facilitate the finding of a solution. If members believe 116 numbers are important and that Ireland should be following through on its EU commitment, we would make the following suggestion to them. There is a need to find an impartial and respected individual with the skills and influence necessary to identify and bring together all of the key stakeholders and work with them in order that a shared solution to this problem might be arrived at. That individual should be asked to report back to the committee in approximately three months with such a solution. In return, our commitment to members would be to begin taking 116 123 calls within one week of that solution being agreed.

We are committed to making the 116 123 service a reality in Ireland as soon as possible, particularly as we believe it is a vital tool in the battle to reduce rates of suicide. Technically and operationally, we are ready to launch the service. However, we need the committee's assistance in resolving the issue of who should pay the call charges. We hope it will be willing to support our proposal for a shared solution.

I thank Ms Costello for her presentation and call on Mr. Callaghan to make his.

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

Two of the numbers reserved by the European Commission for services of social value are 116 006, a helpline for victims of crime, and 116 000, a hotline for missing children with a service available on a 24-hour, seven day a week basis. The Crime Victims Helpline is a voluntary sector organisation funded by the Commission for the Support of Victims of Crime, an independent body under the aegis of the Department of Justice and Law Reform. Since 2005 the commission has been providing funds for voluntary sector organisations which support victims of crime. The Crime Victims Helpline applied to ComReg for permission to use the 116 006 number and, following consultations between ComReg and the Department's victims of crime office, the number was allocated to it. It is now active and we understand Ireland is one of the first member states where this is the case.

On the missing children service, I wish to say a few words about Garda Síochána arrangements and procedures. The Garda authorities advise any Garda station can be contacted when someone wishes to report a missing person in a case of emergency. The person making such contact should provide as much relevant information as possible. All cases of persons reported missing in suspicious circumstances remain open and under ongoing review and investigation until the persons are located. District officers, that is, Garda superintendents, in the areas where persons go missing have direct responsibility for all investigations and searches carried out. Local investigation teams are appointed by district officers and all means necessary, including the services of specialist units, are deployed to assist in investigations.

The Garda Missing Persons Bureau, which is based at Garda headquarters and which has been in existence since 1982, provides expert assistance and advice for district officers in high risk and complicated missing persons cases and also in the identification of bodies. The services of Europol and Interpol can also be availed of during such investigations, if necessary.

Appropriate training is provided for Garda personnel in order to facilitate them in carrying out their functions in searching for missing persons in an effective manner. The investigation of missing persons cases is a dedicated subject on the curriculum at the Garda College in Templemore and also a covered in ongoing in-service training courses. In addition, specialised training initiatives have been undertaken during the years. Contacts have also been established with specialist organisations abroad, including the International Centre for Missing and Exploited Children in Washington, the FBI Academy, the missing persons bureau and the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner in New York and the PSNI across the Border. This has led to members of the Garda Síochána gaining invaluable experience and knowledge.

In September 2004 the missing children's website, www.missingkids.ie, was launched. It is a joint initiative between the Garda and the International Centre for Missing and Exploited Children in Washington. The website enables the Garda to circulate immediately to other police forces around the world details and high quality photographs of children reported missing.

The view of the Garda authorities is that adequate resources, including staff and technology, are in place and being used by the force to deal with missing persons cases and that they operate in accordance with best international practice. The Garda continues to monitor developments in this area with a view to introducing further initiatives which it considers useful. The Garda Missing Persons Bureau is also the central location in the Garda for data relating to all missing persons.

The Garda Inspectorate is an independent statutory body which was established under the Garda Síochána Act 2005. Its objective is to ensure the resources available to the Garda are used to achieve and maintain the highest levels of efficiency and effectiveness in its operation and administration by reference to the best standards of comparable police services.

The programme for Government in 2007 included a commitment to ask the inspectorate to examine current practice in dealing with missing persons cases. The Minister for Justice and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern, subsequently asked the inspectorate to examine current practice in dealing with missing persons cases and response networks operating in other countries such as Amber Alert in the United States and to report its findings to him. It did this and provided a report last year for the Minister. Overall, it found that Garda systems for handling missing persons cases were in line with international best practice and made a total of 18 recommendations on how these systems could be further enhanced. One of its recommendations was that the Garda Missing Persons Bureau should continue to advise and assist in high risk or complex missing persons cases, leaving direct day-to-day responsibility with local district superintendents and their personnel. It also recommended that the Garda develop an alert system for missing children using strict criteria.

The Minister welcomed the inspectorate's recommendations on the handling of missing persons cases and gave the go-ahead for the establishment of such an alert system. The Garda is implementing this recommendation and exploring options to achieve the most appropriate structure to give effect to the recommendation, taking account of progress at international level, that will explore cross-jurisdictional dimensions if children go missing across international borders, for example. It is also implementing the other recommendations made by the inspectorate. However, the inspectorate did not recommend the establishment of a specialised missing persons hotline.

Missing in Ireland Support Services, MISS, is another voluntary sector non-profit organisation funded by the Commission for the Support of Victims of Crime. It operates a missing persons helpline which co-operates with the Garda and community-based organisations and works to ensure there is a national, co-ordinated approach to the location of missing persons, including children. It also focuses on assessment, resources and support for families and friends of missing persons.

With regard to the European Commission decision on 116 numbers, it provides, "The listing of a specific number and the associated harmonised service of social value does not carry an obligation for member states to ensure that the service in question is provided within their territory". We understand this to mean that a member state is, by reason of the decision, not obliged to provide the service. The Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources has informed us that the matter is also referred to in the universal service directive, as amended in 2009. Recital 43 of the directive states member states should make every effort to ensure a service is actually available in their territories and, to that end, should, if appropriate, organise tendering procedures. Article 27a of the directive states member states should promote the numbers and encourage the provision of the services for which such numbers are reserved, ensure citizens are adequately informed of the services and make every effort to ensure citizens have access to a service operating a hotline to report cases of missing children. Following on from these requirements, ComReg has advertised on a number of occasions, inviting prospective service providers who consider they are qualified to offer any of the services mentioned to apply to it for the allocation of the relevant number. We understand it has received a number of inquiries in regard to the missing children hotline.

We will be happy to report the views of the committee to the Minister and the Garda, as appropriate.

Ms Mary McLoughlin

The role of the Office of the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs and the HSE within the Department of Health and Children in regard to the 116 000 number primarily relates to children who are seen to be at risk and in the care of the HSE. The general question of missing children, as Mr. Callaghan said, is one for the Garda which has arrangements and procedures in place to deal with such cases.

As a result of the role of the office, we have had some discussions with the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources about the issues surrounding the proposal to introduce a harmonised number to report missing children. However, as far as the Department and the office are concerned, the view is that the current arrangements are effective. The Garda has arrangements which adhere to best international standards. Where it is contacted about a missing child, arrangements for an investigation can be implemented immediately without the need to go through a third party.

The expenditure of scarce resources to put in place a parallel system of reporting would not appear to be an efficient use of resources and would have the potential to create confusion. The 112 and 999 numbers are very familiar to most people. For these reasons, considerable care needs to be taken in implementing the directive in order that we do not lose any of the benefits of the current system. We have a further meeting planned with the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources within the next few weeks to see how the issue can be progressed further.

I thank the delegations for their interesting presentations. I will start with the presentation made by Samaritans. I do not think any of us, when we started this discussion, appreciated the seriousness of the position in which it finds itself. I acknowledge the tribute paid to Deputy Devins which is an indication that when the Government responds, it can make a real difference. In this instance, there is a need for a Government response. Whether the 116 number is to be used, it seems the Samaritans offers a huge service which extends across the country. It will continue to grow. Is it on the increase, as most would expect, because of the recession?

If Eircom states its subsidy is not sustainable, the message is, whether we are talking about use of the 116 number, Samaritans has a real problem. There is buck-passing between Departments as reflected in the presentations. I find it grossly unsatisfying that we are in a situation where everyone is passing the parcel as quickly as he or she can and that no one is taking responsibility. I do not mean that to be taken personally, but that is the impression being created. This may be due to the fact that there is not a clear Government directive on the matter, but there is certainly a clear European directive on it. While we can wriggle away from being forced to provide the 116 service, all of the points made indicate there is an obligation on the Government to play its part. It seems the presentations the committee has heard by the Departments are unsatisfactory.

We have a particular problem in the case of Samaritans. I suggest the committee write to the appropriate Minister, presumably the Minister for Health and Children, to state there should be an immediate round-table meeting. We can invite back representatives of Samaritans after three months, but I do not believe we have the authority or clout to hold the required round-table interdepartmental meeting. I suggest we do as I propose at an early date, as a shared solution is the way forward. That is practical and would make sense.

My questions to Samaritans are as follows. Is there a trend and is it growing? Has Samaritans had meetings with the Department to deal specifically with the issue of funding? Has the organisation met Eircom to ascertain the timeframe in terms of its essential message which, as I understand it, is that the company wants to pull out? It is important that we know whether the threat is serious.

I invite officials of the Department of Justice and Law Reform to telephone their local Garda station with a serious problem and assess the response received. However, that is not an appropriate way to deal with a serious matter such as this. That telephoning one's local Garda station is sufficient for somebody who finds himself or herself in this situation is inadequate. As Deputies, we often telephone our local Garda station and in the main have a good relationship with local gardaí, but that is not an appropriate way to deal with this matter. If one dials 999, one does not get through to one's local Garda station but to a specialised service. That is the model for which we are looking. There does not seem to be specialised knowledge available. I am sure knowledge is provided as part of the training received, but it is grossly insufficient.

Was the inspectorate asked to look at the idea of using the 116 number? When it set out its recommendations, was it specifically asked to make a full assessment of this provision?

I am not clear on what precisely Government policy is on provision of the 116 service and particularly a helpline to report missing children. The Department states it is in line with international practice, but the point is international practice is not good enough. That is why there is a move at European level to use the fact that there is critical mass across Europe to ensure the best possible response when a child goes missing or is taken.

In questions to the Department of Health and Children I do not want to repeat myself on the issue, but what exactly is the approach being taken to deal with the issues that have arisen?

Like the previous speaker, I welcome all those attending. I take the opportunity to pay tribute to Samaritans, an organisation which is a shining example of voluntarism. In our constituencies we are all aware of the tremendous work it does 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 52 weeks a year. I also pay tribute to it for taking on this important topic of the 116 123 number. However, I agree entirely with Deputy McManus that we are at a standstill, as I was disappointed to hear recently. It is imperative in the current climate when an enormous number of citizens are under pressure for a variety of reasons, be they financial, emotional or social, that as a society we take cognisance of the position in which we find ourselves. Surely, the mark of any society is how it treats those who are most vulnerable in a time of crisis. It appears the block is financial. I am interested in hearing whether Samaritans agree with me in that regard. It has taken the issue as far as it can, but it needs money to get over the line. The committee, particularly the Chairman, should act as facilitator to drive it forward. We need to bring the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources here, as well as the Minister for Health and Children and particularly the Minister of State with responsibility for mental health and disability issues, to thrash it out. For the sake of €800,000, how many lives are at stake? In the current crisis more people are looking for help. We should act now to have this service delivered as soon as possible.

I welcome the three delegations and thank them for their presentations which provoke real consideration among committee members and others. I am appalled to think, to continue to provide an excellent service on behalf of Samaritans and, I presume, others also, the cost would be €825,000 or 25 cent per minute. Who would be the beneficiary in placing that additional cost on the organisation? Certainly, it is not acceptable.

I compliment Samaritans on its work. Ms Costello has mentioned that in 2009 a total of 527 people took their own lives by suicide, a worrying statistic. More people are dying by suicide than in road accidents, which is an indication of how serious the problem is. We should be doing everything we possibly can to help.

I also compliment those involved in the Department of Justice and Law Reform, the Garda Síochána and the health service on their excellent work. I am a little surprised to hear the Department has stated the Garda has adequate resources to deal with the problem. That is certainly not the story I hear from those who are delivering the service, particularly in local Garda stations, many of which are closed for long periods of the day and at weekends. They also do not have the necessary manpower. If one speaks to any garda or sergeant, one will learn that they are under real pressure, as they do not have a complete crew at various times in delivering the service.

It has been mentioned that there were 18 recommendations made, one of which is that the local superintendent take charge when a person goes missing - I presume what happens in the first hours is vital - while another is that an alarm system be put in place. What is happening about the other 16 recommendations? When can we expect to see them being implemented? Can the delegates give us some idea of what they are?

I was a member of a health board for years. The health service provides an excellent service. Unfortunately, many children in care go missing. One would have thought one of the most secure places for a child was to be in the care of the health service. To give us some concept of the scale of the problem, perhaps somebody might tell us how many persons are missing in Ireland, how many of them are children and how many of these are in the care of the health service. Can we get a breakdown of the statistics? One of the striking things in the report from Ms McLoughlin is that it states we will not lose the benefit of the current system. The Samaritans state, however, that we certainly are losing the benefit and that there is an onus on us not to allow this to happen. Despite the fact we are speaking in critical terms, I urge everyone to continue the good work.

I am not sure whether the two Departments recognise the difficulty of the issues with which we are dealing at present. I am not sure what Government policy is and I am not sure who is making it up. This issue will not go away. Will we discover that we have been misled as we are being told different things? Is the Government in favour of a missing child number? I do not know the answer to this and this is our third meeting to discuss it. The reason we do not know is that we are not receiving clear information.

I have a proposal from the ISPCC and One Child International which was submitted to the Government almost three weeks ago. They stated they would 100% fund the 116000 number if the Government approved their informed campaign in order that information on child abuse and how to watch for it and guard against it would go to every house in Ireland. No one has referred to this today.

Last week, representatives of the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources attended the committee and effectively told us we should be speaking to the witnesses. Today, I honestly do not know. There is a changing world out there and I do not know whether the witnesses have come here with a viewpoint or whether they reflect a Government position. If they do, that is fine but we understood this was Government policy and that there was a funding issue. This morning we have heard something different, that to set up a parallel system of reporting would not appear to be an efficient use of scarce resources and has the potential to create confusion. I take this to be the official position of the Minister for Health and Children. This is huge news to us. We have been wasting our time in recent meetings in trying to find out why it has not been set up and we have now discovered that the Minister is opposed to it because it is not a proper use of scarce resources. Should we just adjourn this meeting now and get our facts together?

The issue raised by Deputy Coonan is that the Garda Inspectorate was asked to report on the response networks operating in other countries, but there is no reference to this except a negative one. I have been around too long to be taken in by a reference to the inspectorate not recommending the establishment of a missing children hotline. What did it say about it? It was asked to report on it. Is there a report and what is stated in it? This is being presented to us as if there is some type of conflict or an either-or situation between what is happening in local Garda stations and the 116000 number. This is not the case. Unfortunately, I must leave the meeting now but I will be listening carefully to the answers.

Three issues have arisen: one for the Department of Health and Children, one for the Department of Justice and Equality, and the proposal made three weeks ago to the Government and e-mailed to the Taoiseach, the Minister of State with responsibility for children, Deputy Barry Andrews, and others. This proposal is that if the Government approves the informed campaign to provide comprehensive child abuse prevention information to every household, the organisations will fund the 116000 number and they have a full outline of how they will do so. I will not go into it now but I am sure it has been available to the witnesses. What is the Government doing with this proposal? The answer should be very simple if what we hear from the Office of the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs is correct. It should be to stick it because the Government is opposed to it since better use can be made of resources. If this is the case, I want to know that these are the true facts.

I am annoyed about this. This is our third day trying to get simple information. I do not blame the officials. They have been sent in with a viewpoint. I want to be clear that there is nothing personal whatever about this. We need to know where we stand and we do not.

I join colleagues in welcoming the witnesses to the meeting and thanking them for their presentations. I apologise for being a couple of minutes late. There is nothing personal in the comments being made. It is just that it is very frustrating. We have had a number of meetings to try to get the nub of the issue and it has been very frustrating.

I start by supporting the proposal by Deputy Jimmy Devins on how we can assist in moving on the issues facing the Samaritans. We are all very aware that we are going through extraordinarily difficult times at present and that a number of citizens find themselves in very dark places. In addition to ensuring a recovery plan is put in place, we must look at putting resources in place to get people through the really difficult times. There is a question as to whether it should cost €800,000 but is it a resource that is needed and is there a danger that a support which could help people cannot be put in place?

Deputy Coonan made the point that more people will die through suicide than on the roads and I am sure it is the case for all members of the committee that not a week goes by when we do not hear of someone in our constituency or area who has died through suicide. I am quite concerned that the numbers this year will be much higher than those in previous years. I support Deputy Devins's proposal to ask the Minister of State with responsibility for mental health and disability to attend the committee.

To return to the issue of the 116 numbers, we seem to be going around in circles. What I heard from the presentations was that as a country we seem to be revisiting the decision made in Europe. We are not looking to act on the decision, enforce it and put in place. We have taken it upon ourselves to revisit whether it was the decision to take and whether we should be looking at 116 numbers. All the presentations have spoken about looking at whether as we have a system in place, it would cause confusion and whether it is a good use of resources. This is not where we are at. A decision was taken in the EU that these 116 numbers should be put in place. It was not our remit to revisit this. If we have an issue with it, perhaps we should be taking it up at European level.

A number of EU countries have put these numbers in place. One can use 116 numbers. One just needs to know whether it will work in the country one is in. One of the reasons we asked for this meeting is that at a previous meeting a couple of weeks ago, much to our frustration and, I have to say, shock, we were told that legislation is being drafted to ensure that next year Ireland will advertise the existence of these 116 numbers even though they will not be in existence. We must promote them because we are bound to do so by the decision of the EU. Legislation is being drafted in the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources which will ensure that next year we will fund the promotion of these numbers and tell everyone they exist but they will not be in service. This situation is not tenable and cannot continue. We have to get to the bottom of this. We cannot have a situation whereby mixed messages go out throughout Europe that a series of numbers is in place which do not exist. Perhaps there should be notices in airports to state whether 116 numbers work in that country. If we cannot get it together at European level, perhaps we need to do something.

My particular interest has been in the missing children number. I see a real need for a telephone number for missing children throughout Europe. At the previous meeting we pointed out that the great advantage of being a member of the European Union has been the ease of travel but, ironically, one of the great benefits of it has ended up being one of the greatest risks to children. If a child goes missing within an EU country, it is very easy to move him or her about within Europe and this is one of the reasons for the introduction of the 116 000 number. We cannot allow a situation in which 12 countries in Europe have this missing children number but one does not know whether it applies in the country in question and this is frustrating.

I do not mean to be regarded as disrespectful to Ms McLoughlin or to the Garda Síochána because Departments and agencies, including the HSE and the Garda, do great work, but I do not accept Ms McLoughlin's statement. I refer to the final paragraph which states, "For these reasons, considerable care needs to be taken in implementing the directive so that we do not lose the benefit of the current system." More than 424 children are missing from the care of the HSE. I do not see a benefit to that system. We have been unable to establish their whereabouts. I have heard all the reasons such as that some of the children are non-nationals. That really does not matter because a child is a child. If a child under 18 years of age in the care of the HSE, in the care of the State, goes missing, no one can establish his or her whereabouts or safety. I remind the delegation that Melissa Mahon was one of those children who had gone missing from the care of the HSE. When I was asking for numbers and inquiring as to what action had been taken to find these children, Melissa Mahon was one of those children until her body was found in a nearby river. I do not accept that the current system works. I accept that there have been significant improvements in the past 18 months, especially in the new procedures put in place between the HSE and the Garda Síochána regarding missing children. That said, more than 424 children are still missing. I cannot accept that the system is good.

I referred earlier to the statement that the Department would revisit the decision on 116 numbers. I reiterate that the Garda Síochána should be contacted with any information about missing children. We know from experience that specific call numbers for a specific reason can be very reassuring to people who have information and who wish to make contact. We know that thousands of adults remain missing in Ireland and that most children, thankfully, who go missing will be found, but only if they go missing from their families. If they go missing from the care of the State, they are not found and their whereabouts is not established. No one is available to advocate for those children and to talk to the Garda Síochána or the HSE about any developments in a search for them. No one is out putting up posters on poles for those children. The reason they are in the care of the HSE is because everything else has broken down for them and they are the ones who are most in need of care. So long as these children and adults remain missing, it can be useful to have a specific, dedicated number for anyone to call with any information about their whereabouts. It is another argument whether it was a good decision and that is not under discussion.

I accept that delegates who appear before the committee are doing their duty to the best of their ability but we are not getting any closer to a solution. The end of the year is approaching and the legislation will be before us next year which will promote these call numbers. I cannot contemplate being in that situation. The Samaritans have clearly demonstrated the benefit of having the number and they have put a lot of work into it. My interest is the 116 000 number. This would not even be a fraction of the cost as there would be nothing like those kind of numbers making contact but we need to get to the bottom of this issue as it is not acceptable to leave it as it is.

I welcome our guests and pay tribute to the Samaritans and the many voluntary groups who provide such services. I refer to a new listening service in County Tipperary set up by volunteers and called Good Morning South Tipperary. In these times people are under pressure and are suffering from stress, be it financial, employment or educational.

Like other members, I am very disappointed that we are not further along this road. It seems to be the typical Irish solution to an Irish problem. It is a European directive and different Departments and Ministers are arguing about it. We need to cut to the chase and sort it out. I compliment Eircom over the years for taking up the slack with regard to the costs but now that everyone has a mobile telephone and mobile telephone companies make such big profits, we need to get them to step up to the plate also and carry some of the costs that might be passed on to Samaritans and other groups operating these services. We need leadership from our Ministers and our officials will need to complain and be honest and tell us the real situation. Like other speakers I think we are going around in circles and will end up with no service by the end of the year.

I compliment the Garda Síochána on all the work its members do. At one time we all knew the local garda but that is not the case now. We are policed from a long distance and there is no effective communication. It is not as satisfactory as it was in the past when there was more connection between the Garda and the community. This has not been replaced, despite what official Ireland tells us. People confided valuable information to gardaí over a cup of tea, on the GAA field or wherever they met. In spite of modern communications, we need call numbers and to have faith and trust in people, and the Samaritans are such people. I compliment the former Minister of State, Deputy Devins, on his work. We need people like him to give leadership and sort this out. It is a matter of bringing people together, including the stakeholders who are making money out of communications. There needs to be clarity to see if this is for real. I want answers from the Minister.

I join my colleagues in commending Deputy Devins on the initiative he has taken on moving this matter forward for the Samaritans. I invite Ms Costello to respond on behalf of Samaritans to the questions

Ms Suzanne Costello

I thank all members for their support and the acknowledgment they have given to the work of the volunteers in the charity as this means a great deal to everyone manning the service. To answer Deputy McManus, the Samaritans anticipate an increase in demand on the service. It is widely recognised that during a period of recession the risk of suicide increases, especially among unemployed people. As the unemployment rate increases, we anticipate an increased demand for our services. For this year we expect the increase to be about 10%.

I wish to clarify some points about the Eircom subsidy. The company has reassured us that it is not contemplating withdrawing the subsidy in the short term as it is more a medium to long-term position. We are very grateful for the support Eircom has shown us over the years. This subsidy has been in place for a number of years and it has been a very significant contribution to the work of Samaritans and the other charity helplines it supports. Obviously with the changeover to mobiles and the different types of charges, this subsidy has become an increased burden on the company. In our day-to-day work in the Samaritans we are acutely aware of the demand on the service.

In an era when funding and public donations are diminishing, although support for the charity is very strong, we are trying to cope with increased demand and fewer resources. People are still coming forward to support us and to train as volunteers, and we are very grateful to people. It is a great tribute to the people as a whole. They are concerned about suicide and are willing to make a significant personal commitment, which is excellent from a volunteering point of view. Finance is a problem. We are aware of this and are proactive in this regard. We have requested a meeting with the Minister, Deputy Harney to discuss this and other issues with the Department of Health and Children and with the support of the National Office of Suicide Prevention.

They have agreed to a meeting with us and we are just awaiting at date. We hope it will be before Christmas.

The other issue, which is important to emphasise here, is that 116 123 is a very positive thing. The relationships we have had in trying to make this happen have all been very positive. We have had great support from the Department of Health and Children over the years. The National Office of Suicide Prevention and ComReg have been very supportive in helping and guiding us through this process with Eircom. That is why we are so conscious that a shared solution is probably the best way forward.

Although we are bandying about the figure of €825,000, that is, unfortunately, just for one year. One of the key things with anything offering emotional support is that it must be sustainable. One of the difficulties for all charities is that they are working on a year-to-year basis. In particular in the current climate, one hopes one's funding will come through the following year. Much of it is ad hoc - depending on public donation which is very much up and down currently. The sustainability of the service and sustainability of the arrangement for funding this type of project is extremely important. That is why we believe that rather than place the burden on one organisation, a shared solution is the answer. One of the difficulties for us, and why today is a great opportunity for us, is that as an organisation, we do not really have the clout to bring people around the table, although we may be under-estimating ourselves.

In regard to Deputy Devin's question on whether funding is a block, it is a key block to this. We have outlined the benefits. There is great enthusiasm within the charity for this type of service. Free call will be of great benefit to our callers but the money is not there and we cannot risk the charity to try to bring it in. Call rates are so high currently and we do not know how they will go from month to month. It would be a very risky step to suddenly decide to move into it without the funding in place.

Deputy Coonan asked who is the beneficiary of the €825,000. Mr. Brian Gaynor is our technical specialist so he would probably be better placed to answer that.

Mr. Brian Gaynor

We have calculated that it would probably cost approximately 25 cent per minute and that is based on the blend of calls. Currently, we get 60% of calls from mobile telephones and 40% from fixed telephones. The 25% rate is based on the published Eircom 1800 116 tariffs. That money would go to all the telecom providers. It would go to Eircom and it would pay the determination rates back to the individual providers from which the original call came.

That is the commercial rate but perhaps one of the options is that whoever takes us on could look at whether it could be wholesale rates or taken as being free - that each of the providers does it for nothing. That is up to whoever take us on.

Ms Suzanne Costello

When we get these opportunities to speak to people, like members, we try to be proactive and come forward with a solution. We feel very strongly that if we could somehow get the right person to influence all the people around the table, there is quite a strong possibility of a good solution to this and it would be of huge benefit to the country as a whole, especially at the moment.

When we spoke to Deputy Devins when he was Minister of State with responsibility for mental health, we were very much focused on this project. It was fortuitous that when we completed the infrastructural upgrade, we were then in a postilion to cope with the unforeseen huge demand for the service.

Overall, everything we have done in regard to 116 has been positive and beneficial to the community. It is a project worth holding on to and worth pursuing. We now recognise that we need help to get it over the line.

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

In regard to the Garda numbers and Deputy McManus's comments, the Garda advice to telephone the local number is on the basis that if a person disappears, that is the number which should be telephoned. There is also the emergency number 112 which has dispatchers. Even though it is not local, it knows where to direct the call.

Like everything else in this world, the service could be improved and telephones calls could be responded to more quickly. However, if we are talking about setting up a hotline for missing children, we are talking about another telephone number. Primary responsibility for finding a missing child lies with the Garda. There would have to be contact with the Garda. A number, of itself, would not improve the situation.

The Deputy asked whether the inspectorate was asked to look specifically at this number. The inspectorate was asked to look at the current practice in regard to searching for missing persons and whether it could be improved. It was not asked specifically to look at this number.

With all due respect, it would have been better if Mr. Callaghan had said that in his presentation because the impression given was that the inspectorate did not recommend it. The reality is the inspectorate did not consider it. That is how it should have been presented. I do not mean to interrupt Mr. Callaghan.

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

It looked at the broad area of practice in missing persons.

Senator O'Toole asked about Government policy. In regard to the 116 numbers, there are obligations on Ireland under the decisions and universal directives. They are being transposed by the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources in legislation. Government policy is to fulfil the obligations which are in those instruments. More broadly, Government policy is to improve the arrangements in place for the service of missing persons and children.

Deputy Coonan made a point about resources being inadequate. In one sense, resources will always be inadequate and there will be increasing demands on Garda resources. The Garda is satisfied that in the case of missing persons and children, the resources it has available to meet that issue are adequate to the task in hand.

The Deputy asked about the recommendations of the inspectorate. There were 18 recommendations which covered a broad area about improving the working of the missing persons bureau and how the local superintendent should operate the search for which he or she is responsible. The recommendations and the status of their implementation are available on the Garda Síochána Inspectorate website.

The Deputy also asked about the number of missing people. The numbers change all the time because people go missing and then are located. Last year, 46 children, people under the age of 18, went missing which represents approximately half of all missing people.

There is a difference between that figure and that of-----

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

That is just for 2009. I believe it is of the order of what Senator Corrigan said over approximately ten years.

Will Mr. Callaghan give me that figure again?

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

The Senator's figure was 300 to 400.

It is more than 424.

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

That covers a period of approximately ten years.

Does that include all persons, young and old?

No. That is just for children missing from the care of the HSE.

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

The figure of 46 was in respect of last year, that is, the number of people under 18 years of age who went missing.

Is that from the care of the HSE?

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

No. That is the Garda figure for all children under the age of 18.

Does Mr. Callaghan not have figures on the total number? He is referring to new cases. Does he have figures on the number of children who are missing and who have not been found?

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

Yes. From 2001 to now, it is approximately 350.

Approximately 350 children have not been found and the figure is growing every year. The figure was 45 last year. Does Mr. Callaghan have any idea how many went missing this year?

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

Some 42 is the most recent figure.

Is that out of the 46?

No. That is in addition.

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

That is in respect of this year.

I am sorry for interrupting but this is fascinating information. Mr. Callaghan said that the system is working and it should not be fixed. Does he believe that is the evidence that the system is working?

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

I did not suggest that it could not be fixed. Every system can be improved. Children go missing, some are found and some are not. To the extent that children are found, the system is working.

To return to last year's figures, Mr. Callaghan said that 46 children under the age of 18 went missing. Has he a figure for number reported missing who were found?

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

No, I do not have that available but we could ask the Garda for that.

How accurate are those figures? Do people let the authorities know when children reported missing have been found or when they realise where they are?

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

When a person reports a child missing, the Garda would make a judgment that this is a legitimate missing person and it would pursue that. Either the child is found or he or she is not. If the child is found, the case is solved. To that extent, the figures are accurate.

I might be able to assist on this. I frequently request the figures in my work in the Seanad. The figures reveal that almost every child who goes missing from a family home will be found but almost every child who goes missing from the care of the HSE will not be found. While there are some exceptions, that tends to be the pattern. I last requested the figures a few months ago and at that stage in excess of 424 children were still missing from the care HSE and their whereabouts or safety had not been established and they had not been located.

Ms Mary McLoughlin

On the matter of the 116 123 number, the Samaritans have been in contact with the office of the Minister of State with responsibility for equality, disability and mental health but I can convey the views of the committee to that office.

On a general point, I did not intend to give the impression that we are opposed to the operation of the number but the service needs to be brought in properly. A number that does not have a proper service is not of value. Our role in the Office of the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs is to co-ordinate any work related to children. We have been working with the Departments of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and Justice and Law Reform to make sure that whatever we bring in works. I did not intend to give the impression that the Government was opposed to it.

This is the 116 000 number.

Ms Mary McLoughlin

Yes. Most people will be aware that the multiple reporting arrangements in place is something that has bedevilled the health services. It is something of which we are very conscious. We need to have a clear arrangement to ensure that matters do not fall between two stools. That is a key issue.

On the matter of the 116 123 service number, as Ms Costello said, we need to drive forward the introduction of that service and not allow another three or six months to elapse. I propose, through the Chairman's stewardship, that we invite in the Minister of State with responsibility for mental health and disability and the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources because the telecom providers have a role to play in this. That should be done as a matter of urgency.

In regard to the additional 116 numbers, particularly the 116 000 numbers, we are nearing the end of the year and we are faced with bringing in the legislation. We have probably heard all we can hear from the Departments. Should we perhaps invite in the Ministers? If this is a decision that should not have been taken and that there is no merit in it, we should go back to Europe and revisit it, but one way or the other we need to know where we stand. Departments need to know what they should do before we end up in a situation next year where every other EU member state will advertise and promote these numbers and we will not have them in operation here.

Does the Senator propose that we invite in the Ministers to get clarity on this?

We will do that.

I certainly support that. I presume the Chairman will also invite in the Minister for Justice and Law Reform.

In terms of the role of Eircom, which has been crucial in this, could we consult the regulator to ascertain if there is any provision whereby it may be possible to promote this shared solution? I note there has been massive growth in the use of telephone calls for competitions promoted in RTE programmes and programmes on other radio and television stations. It appears to be a growth area and possibly there is something there that could be a source for funding. The regulator could be consulted for our information to ascertain if there are any possibilities there.

We will contact the regulator.

On behalf of the committee, I thank our guests for their presentations. As there is no other business, the meeting stands adjourned until-----

I have one further point. The energy regulator came before us and was asked some hard questions on the rebranding of the ESB and Bord Gáis. As I recall, Senator Walsh asked specifically that the regulator would revert to us with the costings and as far as I am aware we have not had a response.

We should send him a reminder.

We will do that.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.05 a.m. until 9.45 a.m. on Wednesday, 17 November 2010.
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