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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES debate -
Wednesday, 15 Dec 2010

Competition in Broadcasting: Discussion with RTE

I welcome our guests from RTE who are present to discuss fair competition in public service broadcasting with particular reference to the use of digital media. We have with us Mr. Conor Hayes, Ms Muirne Laffan, Ms Aisling McCabe and Ms Eleanor Bleahene. They are all very welcome.

Before we begin I wish to outline the position in terms of privilege. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege with regard to the evidence they give to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given, and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I invite Mr. Hayes to make his presentation.

Mr. Conor Hayes

We welcome the opportunity to make a presentation to the committee today. My name is Conor Hayes and I am the chief financial officer, CFO, of RTE. In addition to my role as CFO, I also have executive responsibility for a number of RTE's business divisions, including the publishing division which carries out all our digital media activities.

At the committee's request, we will discuss the issue of fair competition in public service broadcasting with particular reference to digital media. Joining me today is Muirne Laffan, executive director of RTE publishing. She is responsible for the strategy and operations of all our web services. Aisling McCabe is director of platform development and is responsible for production of digital content. Eleanor Bleahene is a solicitor in RTE's legal department specialising in broadcasting law and regulation.

We are conscious that in its recent presentation to the committee, the National Newspapers of Ireland, NNI, lobby group made two key assertions about RTE and its online activities which can be broadly summarised as follows. First, RTE trades unfairly by using its licence fee advantage and, as a result, acts in an anti-competitive manner. Second, RTE's alleged anti-competitive behaviour is preventing the British and Irish newspaper titles represented by NNI from being able to compete in the emerging digital environment and thus preventing them from accessing what they consider to be a fair share of the Irish online advertising market.

Accordingly, it is important to clarify at the outset that www.rte.ie is a public service, acting within RTE’s public service broadcasting remit as set out in the Broadcasting Act 2009 and in compliance with applicable EU regulations. www.rte.ie is not a commercial website, although it is funded by RTE’s commercial activity. The website acts fairly, competitively and transparently in its commercial activities. RTE is fully compliant with the requirements of sections 108 and 109 of the Broadcasting Act 2009.

Public service broadcasters throughout Europe are enormously affected by the technological developments that have led to the emergence of the Internet and the digital world. Equally, European public service broadcasters are mandated to embrace this new technology and to respond to these changes by delivering content and services on digital platforms. In this context, public service broadcasters are also required to be increasingly innovative in the development of new forms of financing to enable them to provide these digital services.

All RTE's online activities comply with its public service remit. RTE's role is not just to inform and educate but to entertain and ensure it has relevance to all sections of the population. It has long been recognised by the European Union that the schedule of a public service broadcaster needs to be varied and mixed and have a broad demographic appeal. That principle is equally relevant in an online context.

Similar to public service broadcasters, newspapers worldwide have been impacted by long-term structural change in their industry, audience fragmentation arising from the emergence of divergent services and the economic turbulence of recent years. Those challenges clearly also affect the British and Irish newspaper titles sold in Ireland.

The shift to digital advertising is an international rather than an Irish phenomenon. Advertisers are following audiences and are increasingly switching some elements of media budgets away from traditional avenues towards the emerging alternatives including online media.

The NNI, in simple terms, is seeking for RTE's commercial activities or its online activity, or both, to be curtailed to the benefit of NNI's British and Irish newspaper titles. RTE believes that any such action in itself would be unfair and anti-competitive and would be against the Irish public interest. Simply put, the commercial challenges faced by the British and Irish newspaper industry have not been caused by RTE's online activities. The services we provide online to the Irish public are services they want and anything less would significantly hinder RTE's ability to fulfil its role as a public service broadcaster.

Under RTE's public service remit, RTE must maintain a website and develop and progress its online presence in response to emerging trends. In 1996www.rte.ie was first launched. Following a re-organisation of RTE in 2002 and 2003, we have progressively sought to embrace the opportunities offered by digital technologies for the benefit of the wider public. www.rte.ie offers news, business, sport, entertainment and lifestyle in addition to services such as the RTE player, News Now and Aertel online. RTE’s online schedules fulfil one or both of the two objectives, namely, RTE’s public service commitments as set out in the Broadcasting Act 2009 and its mandate to pursue commercial opportunities.

RTE not only adapts and re-purposes television and radio content for www.rte.ie, it also creates original content for online. In doing so we have fulfilled the public service remit by delivering content to audiences, both in Ireland and internationally, when they want it and where they want it. A good example to illustrate this point is how we communicated across all digital platforms during the recent weeks of extreme weather conditions. The www.rte.ie news team produced live text updates for consumption online, on mobile, and on teletext each day from 6 a.m. until 11 p.m.

To deliver our online service, www.rte.ie employs more than 70 people, including journalists, multimedia producers, web designers and technologists who carry out three principal functions. They originate and produce new content, adapt and re-purpose television and radio material that is suitable for online purposes and distribute content to our audiences on a multiplicity of devices including desktop PCs, iPhones, laptops, mobile phones and iPads.

Section 114 of the Broadcasting Act 2009 defines RTE's public service remit in very specific terms. It was also recognised by the European Commission in its 2009 broadcasting communication which referred to, and acknowledged the need for "diversification of public service services" which goes beyond broadcasting in the traditional sense to include services such as audiovisual content and online text information services.

In addition, the Commission has recognised that public service broadcasters should be both encouraged and capable of taking advantage of developments in digital media and new distribution platforms to deliver services to their audiences. It also referred to the business models of public service broadcasters generating new sources of financing such as online advertising. In essence, European policy, which informed Ireland's broadcasting legislation in 2009, mandates that public service broadcasters must be fully active online and in the area of digital media. Consistent with European policy, RTE's remit is therefore to be fully engaged in the provision of television, radio and online schedules financed by a dual funding model that enables, and quite sensibly requires RTE to pursue commercial opportunities to limit the total public cost.

As regards codes of practice, www.rte.ie behaves responsibly in its advertising activities and operates within strict advertising codes. As well as adhering to voluntary regulation under the Advertising Standards Authority of Ireland, ASAI, www.rte.ie complies with the alcohol marketing communications monitoring body. www.rte.ie also applies more stringent rules than required by the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI, children’s commercial communications code in that it carries no advertising on children’s sites. The recent audiovisual media services directive puts advertising restrictions on www.rte.ie but not on newspaper sites.

As regards funding, the costs of www.rte.ie, both in re-purposing content for digital use and in separate content origination, are partially met by commercial activities on the website itself, such as advertising, sponsorship, affiliations and e-commerce. The remainder of the cost of providing the online service is met by the proceeds from other commercial activities in the RTE publishing division, namely, RTE Guide, Aertel and our telecoms activity, together with some support from RTE’s wider commercial activities apart from publishing.

This framework, which has been approved and supported by the European Commission, means RTE is mandated to pursue commercial opportunities to enable it to earn the necessary commercial revenue to make up the significant shortfall in television licence fee funding that exists. In this regard I should point out that the television licence fee covers approximately half the cost of RTE's public service activities and does not and could not even remotely cover the full cost of all the public service commitments which are statutorily required. Hence the critical need for and legitimate obligation on RTE to generate the remainder of its annual budget requirements from its commercial activities. To date RTE Publishing has not been financed by the TV licence fee.

As regards online market revenues, contrary to what has been suggested by National Newspapers of Ireland, NNI, RTE is neither a dominant nor the largest player in the online revenue and advertising market in Ireland. In fact, of a reported total Irish online advertising spend of €97 million in 2009, as estimated in the IAB "adspend" study of April 2010, prepared by PricewaterhouseCoopers, I understand, RTE's share was just €2.5 million or less than 3% of the market. The RTE figure is specifically disclosed in our annual report, should the committee wish to check the figures. The assertion made by NNI is therefore manifestly wrong.

As regards compliant financial reporting, RTE wishes to emphasise that it has always fully complied with the provisions of EU and national competition law in the conduct of its commercial activities. Those provisions prohibit distortions of the market by any unfair use of television licence fee revenue. The same provisions require a necessary degree of transparency in terms of its accounting, to which RTE is strongly committed.

RTE's commitment to high standards of financial reporting have been explicitly recognised externally at a professional level nationally in Ireland over a number of years. For each of the past six years since 2004, RTE's group annual report has been short-listed in the published accounts awards held under the auspices of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in the category for large unquoted companies, and in both 2008 and most recently in 2009 its group annual reports have won the relevant category award.

As for a competitive landscape, in reality the strongest competition to Irish newspapers generally or more specifically in respect of online activities are not Irish broadcasters such as RTE but rather a powerful combination of global and national forces. Worldwide Internet companies providing search, display and classified advertising have a significant presence in the Irish market, for example, Google, Facebook, Microsoft and Yahoo. Then there are the specific international digital advertising networks which have increasingly encroached into this marketplace and include companies such as TradeDoubler, ValueClick Media and AOL Advertising. A third category is the multimedia platform and content distributors such as Sky and UPC. A fourth is the Irish based Internet-only offerings which have established very strong positions, especially in the classified advertising market, for example, www.daft.ie, www.carzone.ie, www.property.ie, www.myhome.ie, which is owned by The Irish Times, and www.irishjobs.ie, which is part of Saongroup owned by Denis O’Brien. In this regard RTE shares similar challenges to the newspaper titles. For its part, in response to these challenges and opportunities RTE has responded by seeking to diversify its commercial revenue streams with a view to ensuring we are in the best position to deliver a high quality service on all our platforms, including our online platform.

It is important to put an appropriate and broader industry context on this subject. Based on published information, the combined global turnover of the top 15 traditional media organisations – as ranked by turnover - selling or distributing advertising and content services into the Irish market in 2009 amounted to €43 billion. The committee has a copy of this listing. The large scale and international influence and reach of some of these organisations is perhaps well reflected in the fact that the global combined turnover of the top five amounted to €40 billion in 2009 whereas the gross national product of the Irish economy that year was €131 billion. In reducing order of size, the five largest global traditional media players with a combined global turnover in 2009 of €40 billion and with a presence in selling and distributing advertising content services in the Irish market were News Corporation - USA, Liberty Global - USA, British SKY Broadcasting Group - UK, Daily Mail and General Trust – UK, and Independent News and Media -Ireland. It is worthy of note that newspaper titles owned by three of these top five companies are represented by the NNI lobby group. This includes Independent News and Media, which is the only Irish entity in the top five grouping and which in 2009 had a turnover of €1.3 billion or more than three times that of RTE.

Out of the top 15 traditional media companies listed, the combined global turnover in 2009 of those companies which own British or Irish newspaper titles and are represented by NNI amounts to around €27 billion. It should be noted that many of these multinational companies do not specifically disclose the totality of their substantial turnovers and financial scale in the Irish media market.

By contrast, the entire turnover of the RTE group for 2009 was €375 million, placing RTE in ninth position in terms of size by turnover. Of particular relevance, RTE's online turnover in 2009 was just €2.5 million. Constraining RTE's online activities clearly will not solve the financial problems that may be faced by the shareholders of the global, national and traditional media groups that own the various British and Irish newspaper titles represented by NNI. Rather, such a measure merely serves to deflect attention away from the turbulent macroeconomic climate in which we all live and from the specific management actions and challenges with which individual newspapers must deal. It would certainly deprive the Irish public of vital news, information and other public service content and schedules currently provided by www.rte.ie.

Within the limits of its resources, RTE for its part, has prudently sought to be cost effective, innovative, proactive, fast moving and dynamic in response to the technological challenges and opportunities brought about by a rapidly changing and increasingly fragmented media landscape. RTE pursues commercial activities online in a fair and transparent manner that complies with all relevant codes and practices. The website www.rte.ie does not use television licence fee money. It is essential for RTE to drive revenue from other sources and to act commercially in order that it can fulfil its public service remit. The Irish online advertising market is tough, competitive and heavily populated with very strong global competitors. “New” media are no longer “new” and are here to stay; the clock simply cannot be turned back.

I have attached a schedule to my submission. I do not propose to refer to it but it is available to members if they wish to study it.

I thank Mr. Hayes for his submission.

That was a good, feisty presentation by a semi-State body. It is the kind that we in politics look for all the time. Since RTE's last visit, we have been impressed by the fact that it has managed to balance the books despite a drop in revenue of €70 million last year. That is very much appreciated at a time of cuts and when the finger is being pointed at all sorts of State activities.

It is very useful that RTE's submission is a direct response to the NNI's presentation last week. Several points arose last week that reflected our concerns and questions. I will mention a few. Will Mr. Hayes confirm that more than 70 people are working on the website solely? I was astonished by that figure. I was not aware of it before now. It is not directly relevant to the issue under discussion but it is important nevertheless.

The committee is concerned about the issue that arose between the NNI and RTE regarding RTE's public service element. Mr. Hayes stated that the television licence fee covers approximately only half the cost of RTE's public service activities. That was news to me and I would like to hear Mr. Hayes expand on it. It effectively answers one of our main concerns of last week. We wondered whether RTE was being subsidised in a way that was anti-competitive in the marketplace. Will Mr. Hayes expand on that point because it is very important to us?

Mr. Hayes did not raise the issue of websites in the United Kingdom. This is important to us. We put hard questions to the NNI on comparing some of the Irish websites with UK websites, for example, www.guardian.co.uk and www.telegraph.co.uk. It answered those questions. It was acknowledged that the website of The Irish Times is on par with that of RTE. One or the other wins the prize every year. While we recognise that, Mr. Hayes should note there is no advertising on www.bbc.co.uk. I emerged from our meeting with the NNI, which I do not want to misquote, with the impression that British newspapers have free or almost free access to some online news services. We made the case that some British newspapers have video broadcasts, live broadcasts and interviews on their websites. The NNI made the point that media in the United Kingdom are not competing with www.bbc.co.uk in the same way as Irish media are competing with www.rte.ie.

The NNI made the point time and again that if somebody is listening to "Morning Ireland" or "News at One", one can hear Aine Lawlor or Sean O'Rourke telling listeners that if they want to hear more, they can click on www.rte.ie. When one clicks on it, the first thing one may see is an advertisement for some product. Therefore, the NNI feels it is being squeezed in the middle. I am putting the NNI’s case as strongly as I can. It is not here to do so itself. I feel I should put its case.

The case Mr. Hayes is making is that there is cross-subsidisation of the RTE corporate entity by the website. The NNI stated strongly last week that it feels this is unfair. Does Mr. Hayes have any comment on the fact that, on most of RTE's programmes, the listener is directed to the RTE website? Is there a case to be made that this should be a term of advertising? If so, should there be a charge on the corporation? The NNI feels there is unfair competition in this regard because it does not have the same facility in the organisations it represents.

Mr. Conor Hayes

We have 70 people working on the website. Ms Laffan will explain what they do and why the scale is as it is.

Ms Muirne Laffan

There are four teams of journalists. These include news, business, sport and entertainment journalists. The teams comprise approximately 42 people in total. We run two shifts per day, seven days per week. The staff is not huge considering the amount of time that must be covered, in respect of news, for example.

Mr. Hayes mentioned the weather. We started at 6 o'clock and continued until 11 o'clock. When there are major events, we run later. Where sport is concerned, it depends on the event at the time, but there must be coverage. Our teams are not of a significant size when one considers that one must cover all the time in question.

We have 11 people in platform operations and they include designers and webmasters. They put the site out and run the player, "News Now" and our homepage. We have a team of technology staff in-house. They engage in software development but also run the infrastructure. All these teams create content for Aertel, which appears on analogue broadcasts. They are multi-publishing. We try to reuse as much content as we can. The teams develop a story and we make it available on mobile, the website and Aertel.

With regard to advertising, Ms Laffan mentioned people working on the platform. Is a design service provided for advertisers or is advertising just taken in?

Ms Muirne Laffan

We just take it in.

Mr. Conor Hayes

I will deal with the wider issue the Senator mentioned. I thank him for his compliments on our results although we are not quite at the end of the year. We expect to have addressed very closely our financial issues by the end of the year. We have succeeded in reducing operating costs by approximately €80 million in the past 20 months. We face the same kinds of challenges as everybody else.

In 2009, the total licence fee revenue we received was €200 million and the total operating cost was €375 million. The licence fee revenue will be somewhat less for 2010. We simply do not get enough money from licence fees and never have from the very start of broadcasting in Ireland in 1926. Newspapers in their submission to the Dáil at the time suggested that no advertising should be allowed and that radio services should not be allowed to carry news either. Some things have not changed much in 80 years.

They are consistent, at least.

Mr. Conor Hayes

Exactly.

We have a dual-funded model. It is different from the model in the United Kingdom. The BBC is a very large corporation with a turnover of several billion pounds. BBC Worldwide is a very large commercial entity with a turnover of £700 million.

Was that not sold?

Mr. Conor Hayes

No. In our case, the funding model adopted for RTE and in many other countries in Europe - fully approved by the European Commission when passing its blessing on the Broadcasting Act 2009 - is a dual funding model. This recognises the practical reality that there is no way we will get enough funding from public sources. To earn our lunch, we must have commercial activities as an integral part of our operation. I will ask Ms Bleahene to deal with the comment made on the BBC.

Ms Eleanor Bleahene

I am happy to do that, but I would like first to reaffirm something Mr. Hayes said. We have significant legislation on the Statute Book, namely, the Broadcasting Act 2009. It has the machinery to allow RTE to be a dual funded broadcaster, to deliver its public service remit but also to ensure it can earn commercial revenues to discharge the cost of that public service remit. There are particular objects and powers that permit RTE to perceive commercial opportunities and to engage in commercial activities. There are particular rules in that Act which ensure RTE does not square the level playing pitch and does not use the advantage of the licence fee to subvent or help its commercial activities in a way that may be unlawful. RTE complies in full with the rather detailed transparency and compliance requirements set out in the Act.

The Chair and I are well aware on that. We sat on the appointment body that sent out the board members and we were insistent that they be up to date on those issues. We do not need convincing on that one.

Ms Eleanor Bleahene

Okay. In respect of the BBC and the comment made by the NNI representatives that they were entitled-----

I may have misquoted them, so I would like to be careful on that.

Ms Eleanor Bleahene

I was not here, but my recollection from the transcript is that Mr. Frank Cullen stated that when the newspapers sought content, the BBC was obliged to provide it to them. We are not aware of any arrangement on this. RTE does not have a problem in principle with providing content to third parties, but there would be a formatting cost involved. RTE must ensure it has rights clearance. If RTE is obliged to provide this content to newspapers, why would it not be obliged to provide its content to other publishers? Surely a requirement to make it available to newspapers may well be anti-competitive in itself.

At that meeting, I pointed out to the delegation that if one goes into Google News to read the Irish story of the day, every single piece from the Irish newspapers is on the website, yet no one is paid for that. This raises the issue of rights. This committee feels strongly about this. The people from the National Newspapers of Ireland are paying their journalists whose copy is being taken by Google and is available at one click with no payment being sought. Mr. Hayes pointed out that this is an international issue and I would like to hear the views of the delegation on how Europe might respond to this.

Mr. Conor Hayes

There are very significant costs involved for us. We have to go to the totality of the dual funding mandate. If we have €375 million in costs and €190 million in public funding, then there is a significant gap. We either slash back on that funding or we find ways to earn the revenue. We are not in a position simply to give away content or to subsidise newspapers or other entities. We sell content if a station like TV3 wants to show a clip, but we also buy content if we want it from broadcasters and publishers. That is how rights issues work.

Ms Bleahene made the point that there are very significant and complex international legal issues for content, especially video content but also audio content. The committee has had presentations from the likes of IMRO on that issue. These are significant costs and we simply cannot just pass on things in the fashion that people seem to assume we can.

Were I to set up a website tomorrow called www.news.eu, and I took all RTE’s content and put it on my website - which is what Google is doing to the national newspapers - how would RTE react to that?

Ms Eleanor Bleahene

From a legal perspective, the lawyer might be required to inform Google that this would be a direct breach of RTE's copyright because it has been included without permission. That is the challenge in the digital environment. How does one protect one's copyright? How does one successfully pursue a publisher such as Google? RTE faces the same challenge. It has its own content and this is a breach of copyright and the underlying intellectual property rights.

I would like the delegation to take off its RTE hat for a second and realise that there is an Irish news issue involved. There are journalists working in the country. If someone takes their copy, should we not be saying something internationally to deal with this issue?

Mr. Conor Hayes

We accept there is a wider issue. When we put programmes onto the RTE player, we have to get rights clearances ourselves and purchase them from the originator. When we get the original programme, sometimes we have the right to show it online but in other cases we have no right to do so, and then we have to go back and negotiate specifically. I am not sure whether we can contribute anything directly for that. It is an issue where the whole sense of rights must be reviewed. Within this context, I do not think there is anything we can add to that. Perhaps Ms Laffan can refer to the issue of references being made to websites.

Ms Muirne Laffan

Senator O'Toole specifically mentioned "Morning Ireland" and I think that is a good example. We believe the reference to the website is in an editorial context and I think it is very important for programmes like "Morning Ireland" to have a website, as programmes on other stations with which they are competing also have websites. Websites are used to give further information or to give the opportunity to the listener to catch up. It is important for the programmes so I do not believe it is willy-nilly promotion of the website. Newspapers on programmes such as "Morning Ireland" probably get equal weight in references and in the use of their journalists on the programme. References to the website are not done specifically to promote it but to supplement the content and its value to the user and the audience. That is why they do it.

I expected the members of the delegation to make that case in their presentation, that they advertised newspapers every morning. I thought they might have argued that in their defence.

Ms Muirne Laffan

Yes, but it is in an editorial context as opposed to a promotional context.

Mr. Conor Hayes

It is important to note that technology is changing. A company such as Facebook will have a turnover this year of €550 million, while in 2007 it had a turnover of €150 million. There has been an explosion in these activities and the way content is being accessed. There is a demand from people, some of which is age related. There are many interviews where we cannot fit everything onto the particular programmes from which they are being broadcast, so we try to carry the full interview on the website and use that reference in the programmes. It is a very specific area and is not an anti-competitive practice.

It may not be willy-nilly anti-competitive but RTE is directing people onto its website which then has advertising on it.

Mr. Conor Hayes

That is a legitimate activity.

It is absolutely legitimate. We made the point to the representatives of the national newspapers that we want RTE to be in the marketplace.

I wish to return to the point made by Ms Bleahene regarding Google. On Google's News Ireland website today the third story listed relates to the killing in Westmeath and is taken directly from the piece that appeared on rte.ie 22 hours ago. What does RTE propose to do, or what can it do, about Google stealing its content? Google’s News Ireland site includes articles from today’s Irish Independent, The Irish Times, Midlands Radio’s website and rte.ie. Does this constitute stealing RTE’s copy and, if so, can anything be done to control it?

Ms Aisling McCabe

Search engines are aggregators of content but they also serve to drive traffic to individual sites by offering a selection of relevant content and allowing users to click into a site for more information about a particular story and other relevant content. Users who link into our site from a search engine may find a relevant piece from the 1 o'clock or 6 o'clock news, for example. Online news sites have always used search engines in this way to attract traffic. It is a question of the balance to be struck between how much content one retains and how much information or metadata one includes and makes available to Google. Neither RTE nor any other news website gives all its content to Google or other search engines. It is about offering a selection of content in order to drive traffic back to one's site.

So the idea is to offer Google a portion of one's content in order to attract users to one's site.

Ms Aisling McCabe

Yes. We spoke about repurposing content in terms of editing stories, removing advertisements and including metadata or keywords which are picked up by search engines, and often presented in the form of the headline and first paragraph, with a view to driving traffic back to our site where users may access other news content.

So RTE actively encourages Google's use of its content in this manner?

Ms Aisling McCabe

Yes.

Mr. Conor Hayes

It is how the structure works. Although it may appear so, there is no thievery of content taking place.

Ms Aisling McCabe

It is a question of how much content one makes available to search engines through one's metadata. RTE typically retains most of its content on its own site. It is worth noting that we use rich site summary, RSS, feeds which allow any website to pick up our headlines and link back to our site.

I thank Mr. Hayes and his colleagues for their contributions.

Mr. Conor Hayes

I wish the Chairman and Senator O'Toole well in view of their respective announcements of their imminent departure from politics. I thank them both for their time over the years.

I will be a great loss to Irish politics, that is true.

Mr. Conor Hayes

I include Deputy McManus, who is not present today, in those good wishes.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.05 a.m. sine die.
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