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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, MARINE AND NATURAL RESOURCES debate -
Wednesday, 12 Feb 2003

Vol. 1 No. 7

Postal Services: Presentation.

Members will be aware that we met the management of An Post on 29 January. We have asked Mr. Alex Pigot and Ms Jacqueline O'Regan to make a presentation to the committee and assist it in its work. Mr. Pigot is managing director of the bulk mail production company, TICO Group Limited, a board member of the Federation of European Direct Marketing Associations and a member of the Irish Direct Marketing Association's regulatory affairs committee.

Before I ask Mr. Pigot to make his presentation I draw attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Alex Pigot

Thank you, Chairman, and members of the committee. I am honoured to have this opportunity to address the committee and give my views on the postal market in Ireland. I compliment the committee on holding these hearings and encourage it to hold more. Postal services are essential to Irish society and the Irish economy and this is a vital forum to debate whether they are working.

TICO Group Limited produces approximately one in every 40 postal items delivered by An Post every day and are a major customer of An Post. We employ 51 people in Stillorgan Industrial Park and our customers include both major Irish banks, both major telecommunications companies as well as other financial institutions, telecommunications companies, marketing companies, charities, travel companies, multinationals and Irish blue chip companies.

To summarise what we do, we receive data files on disc - more normally CD - by e-mail, files of mails and addresses. We make sure the names are correct and that the addresses are valid. We print letters, invoices, statements and legal notices. We print names and addresses on envelopes or postcards, pack letters and leaflets into the envelopes, sort the mail items into postal areas and bag them. We pay the postage and give the mail items we have produced to An Post.

We think, as do our customers, that the quality of the service we provide is world class. The quality of An Post's service reflects on ours. That is why a high quality service from An Post is so important and fundamental to our business and why we take such a keen interest in the development of the postal market.

I may be rushing through the presentation, but that is because I have much to say in a little time. Please let me know if the committee wants me to slow down. Turning to the question of the universal service and its importance to TICO Group, one cannot walk into a post office and ask for a universal service. However, that is what An Post is supposed to provide. The regulator is also supposed to ensure that we, the citizens of Ireland, have such a service. The European Union definition of "universal service" is the collection from all collection points and the delivery to all delivery points of all mail items weighing up to 20 kilograms five days a week, 12 months of the year excluding bank holidays. European Union member states may direct their USPs to collect and deliver more often, such as in the United Kingdom, where there are Saturday deliveries. Member states may also allow the USP exemptions from collecting or delivering on a daily basis at points which may be inaccessible due to factors such as snow and high seas.

However, the important point is that the universal services is owned by and is the responsibility of the member state. In Ireland, therefore, the universal service is no longer the primary responsibility of An Post. This is a very important change. Therefore, if An Post cannot maintain and guarantee a universal service, this State can, and perhaps must, choose to appoint another USP for some or all of that service. I hasten to add this is not an option we, nor I believe anybody present, would even consider until all possible efforts have been made to encourage and help An Post to provide, maintain and guarantee a high quality universal service.

A universal service is important to us as it is to everybody else in this country. It is the guarantee that An Post or a postal service will collect and deliver mail at affordable prices every working day. Therefore, it is also important that our only USP provides a quality service. This is reflected in the Minister's draft direction to the regulator when he pointed out that the regulator's responsibility is to ensure Irish industry and domestic customers enjoy a competitively priced high quality postal service on a par with the highest quality standards elsewhere in the European Union. In the past two years, ComReg has been doing a wonderful job, overseeing the provision of the universal service. I believe it has come to grips extremely well with the postal service. However, its legislative powers are limited. It can decide whether the USP can increase its tariffs in the reserved area or not, but it has little power to carry out its responsibilities regarding the universal service in terms of making changes to the terms and conditions of access to be provided by the USP. If our national universal service is to be maintained and guaranteed, the regulator must be given greater powers, by way of legislation, such as the forthcoming postal miscellaneous provisions Bill, to empower it to define the terms and conditions of access to the universal service under which any USP offers services to its customers, as well as to define the global area we are discussing, which is postal services.

We are all aware there have been problems with the universal service recently, including the backlog at Christmas, the debate over kerbside boxes and postal codes, the mixed quality of service in terms of delays recently and the discovery of the hitherto unknown loss-making section of its business, which is cross-Border or overseas mail. With regard to the recent delays and Christmas backlog, the problem has been caused, in my estimation, by a combination of changes in work practices and the inability of the new sortation machines, on which an Post has spent €150 million to cope with peak volumes. If I am factually wrong, I am happy to be corrected.

I would like to share with the committee my thoughts and observations as to what the root causes may be. First, An Post's collecting and delivery offices such as Bray or Drogheda now send all their mail to the DMC, located in west Dublin, where mail is supposed to be sorted and sent on to local delivery offices. However, if there is too much mail to sort, the unsorted mail instead goes to either Portlaoise or Athlone for sorting, which causes delays. Second, the reason there may be too much mail to sort is because An Post tried to eliminate any staff overtime. At the same time it will not let local offices such as Bray and Drogheda take care of the sorting of mail they collected themselves. This means there are not enough staff hours when there are peak volumes, which also causes delays.

Members may recall, if they were third level students themselves, that in previous Christmases it was also usual if either Sheriff Street, or more lately the DMC, had too much to sort, they would send it to places like Blackrock or Ballsbridge in Dublin to help out with the workload, pay the delivery staff overtime and use third level students to deliver the post. The first step to solving the problems referred to is the immediate introduction of postcodes. While I would like to explain how the sortation machine works, I am short of time, so I will skip it and members can read up on it in their own time.

The sortation process by machines can be made much more efficient by the introduction of postcodes. With postcodes, the sortation machine only has to read a code and not a complete address. In the UK, everyone knows that if you do not put a postcode on a letter it will take longer for the Royal Mail to deliver, which encourages all users to put postcodes on letters. I believe work practices and new sortation machines are causing problems. TICO's bulk mail is being pre-sorted, therefore, it is not affected. Bulk mail produced by us since November last year has experienced no delays in its delivery, while single piece mail we posted has. This is because our bulk mail is sorted in advance of being given to An Post. Because it is sorted in advance, it does not need to be sorted again. It never goes near a sortation machine and can be transported by An Post to the local delivery offices.

Do you hand over a bag for a different county or a different post office?

Mr. Pigot

I hand a bag of mail directly to An Post with a label "Skibbereen - 56 items" on the outside. It never goes past the platform into the room with the sortation machine. Instead the bags of sorted mail are put onto the platform and directly on to the van going to Skibbereen, for example. In my view to enhance the quality of the service, An Post must enable their customers to have down stream access by encouraging them to sort their mail to local delivery offices, as well as postcoding mail and, if possible, putting a bar code into the address block.

Members may be interested to know that 60% of all domestic mail in the United States is delivered by the mail producer to the local delivery office, independent of the United States postal service. Members may also be interested to know that the provision of easier access to the network is one of the provisions of the second postal directive. If both mail is delivered directly to the local delivery office, it will free up logistical and sortation staff in An Post to take care of other backlogs or delays. If An Post does not introduce schemes along these lines, I hope the regulator will persuade it to do so.

Lastly, and probably most simply, An Post should allow single piece mail customers to put their mail in pillar boxes or other collection points which are marked "local only", as in Drogheda only, or "all other places", as has been done in Dublin for decades. This would allow local offices to hold all mail for local delivery and send it to the central sorting offices.

We must encourage more mail volume. So much for improving our current system, but there are other ways to alleviate An Post's losses and problems by increasing volume and turnover. An Post can increase volume. Increasing volume is why postal tariffs generally increase only at times of major changes within the postal system. That is why there has been a 30 cent charge since 1991. There has not been changes, because volumes keep increasing every year and costs keeping increasing. The fact that volumes increase means the turnover is increased, which takes care of the costs.

An Post has a service called Postaim, which is suspended four weeks before Christmas and four weeks before general elections. Postaim is approximately 30% of the mail volume in this country. An Post should increase immediately its annual volume by not suspending that Postaim service. It should also stop subsidising foreign postal operators and their customers. An Post should pull out or renegotiate REIMS and create new bilateral or multilateral agreements. It should do so immediately with Royal Mail which accounts for more than 90% of our incoming cross-border mail. This, I estimate, will immediately increase An Post's income by in excess of €11 million per annum. I will come back to REIMS later if time permits and members would like to ask questions on it.

Slide 10 indicates a chart which is used in the postal industry to show the breakdown of costs in the collection, sortation and delivery of mail. Some 10% is used for collection, that is, picking up at pillar boxes or businesses, 18% for outward sorting, either in the DMC or local office where they used to sort, 2% for transport, for example, from the DMC back to Drogheda, 5% for inward sorting - when the mail arrives in Drogheda, it is for the postmen and women to sort it into walk sort, and 65% is allocated for delivery, for example, where the postman or woman leaves the office and goes out on the bike, walking or in the van to deliver the mail to the address. Some 10% of the price of a stamp can be allocated to collecting mail in the UK and delivering it to the DMC in Ireland. As long as Royal Mail charges its customers no less than 80% of the Irish tariff, it can make money out of mail produced in the UK and sent to An Post, for An Post to deliver. This translates, by my calculation, into a figure of 32 cent for each item. Therefore, as a customer of Royal Mail, one can expect to pay no more than 32 cent to send a letter to Drogheda from the UK. However, in reality they actually pay less. These rates, either the 32 cent or 28 cent mentioned earlier, are not available to Irish customers of An Post - the best rate possible and available only after taking on the burden of 28% of the costs is 36 cent.

An Post knows this is the reality of the postal market but, as yet, it has not publicly shown its plans as to how it intends to solve its biggest source of losses as per its 2001 accounts. To be fair, until the regulator, ComReg, required it to produce the separated accounts for 2001, which we have all seen on the website, An Post always thought it was making substantial profits from inbound mail. However, An Post, as a matter of urgency, must address this matter as the haemorrhaging of Irish jobs and profits is continuing every day this problem remains unsolved.

Therefore, to improve as well as maintain and guarantee our universal service, I would like to see An Post do the following: introduce postcodes, barcodes and separated pillar boxes; encourage downstream access to the network; not suspend posting; and renegotiate REIMS and other terminal dues agreements.

The Minister says it is the responsibility of ComReg to ensure Irish industrial and domestic customers enjoy competitively priced, high quality postal services on a par with the highest quality standards elsewhere in the EU. There is no doubt that An Post provides a high quality service. I would class the men and women who sort the mail and deliver it with other State servants such as nurses, teachers, gardaí and fire fighters. In his recent presentation to this committee, Mr. John Hynes stated that An Post has a "grand plan", which necessitates concentrated sorting offices. He said postcodes are not necessary but that half a million kerb-side post boxes are essential. Unfortunately he stopped short of giving more details of this plan. If our national universal service is to be maintained and guaranteed our only universal service provider should be encouraged to share this plan with all stakeholders so that we can understand and accept more fully the changes An Post proposes. The regulator must be given greater powers through legislation to define the terms and conditions of access to the universal service.

I thank the Chairman and the committee for their time and kind attention.

Thank you, Mr. Pigot. I am delighted you took an interest in the proceedings of the committee two weeks ago and in what Mr. Hynes said on that occasion, which caused us to ask more probing questions.

You mentioned that your company produces one in 40 postal items for An Post. Is your company An Post's biggest customer?

Mr. Pigot

I do not know. It would be one of the top 50 customers. I have been told this by An Post.

How is your company treated by An Post, as one of its top 50 customers? Is An Post delighted with its business?

Mr. Pigot does not have privilege for this answer.

Mr. Pigot

I get on extremely well with the people I deal with in An Post. I have never had a problem.

You are treated well, therefore, as a company. Is the customer king?

Mr. Pigot

I am treated very well by everyone I know in An Post.

You mentioned REIMS, which is of concern to us. I have noted the figures for losses from An Post in the 2001 accounts, which are €5.6 million for international outbound reserved, €11.1 million for international inbound reserved and €8.2 million for international inbound non-reserved. These are losses of €26 million for delivering other people's mail or for delivering mail from this country to another country. You have given us a short account of your view on the question of renegotiating. I presume it is in the power of An Post to charge prices which will not reflect a loss for delivering other people's mail in this country.

Mr. Pigot

Are you asking if it is within An Post's power to renegotiate that agreement?

Why would An Post deliver mail at a loss?

Mr. Pigot

Until the regulator suggested it produce separated accounts, An Post always thought it made a lot of money out of inbound international mail.

The reports do not reflect that.

Mr. Pigot

No.

An Post has lost €26 million on inbound and outbound international mail, under their universal service provider.

Mr. Pigot

That is right.

Not all of it, of course. Some of it is reserved and some of it is unreserved.

Mr. Pigot

Much of the mail that is arriving is unsorted in bags and must then travel directly to the DMC where is it put through the sortation process which I have described. I am not sure what An Post is getting for that. I recently saw the figure of 73%. The figure in the REIMS agreement is 70% but I know that if I take mail from here to the UK and mail it from the UK I could get a rate somewhere in the region of 68% or 69% of our standard tariff.

In an article you wrote in a national newspaper on 10 January you said the Dutch had opted out of the REIMS agreement. Why did they opt out?

Mr. Pigot

Because the rate they were getting was not sufficient.

Therefore, An Post could opt out as well. Is that what you are suggesting?

Mr. Pigot

As far as I know the agreement can only run until 31 December 2001. What is referred to as REIMS 3 is being negotiated at the moment. I think I read somewhere that An Post is hoping that REIMS 3 will give it about 90% of its headline tariff. This brings me back to the chart I showed the committee. That would allow 10% to Royal Mail to collect and bring the mail here to Ireland.

We notice that much mail coming into the country is from Irish companies but is posted in a foreign country. This applies particularly to periodicals and second class mail. Is this because, as you said earlier, it is cheaper to produce mail and send it from another country?

Mr. Pigot

There is a number factors but the main reason has to do with post. For example, if one wants to produce mail and use a service like mine, the conditions under which one would do it, the costs for example, are more or less the same in the United Kingdom as they are here. However, if a mail run happens to be 10 million items, because it covers the whole of Europe, a print run of 10 million items should, obviously, be done in one place. If most of the items are to be posted in the UK then the printing and posting would be done there. The costs are more or less the same but the main factor is the cost of posting. It is cheaper to mail in bulk from the UK to Ireland than to mail from Ireland to Ireland.

Or Germany, for example. Many periodicals come into Ireland with German postmarks.

Mr. Pigot

Yes, it is also cheaper to post from Germany to Ireland.

I also read the article and found the point Mr. Pigot made about REIMS fascinating. The Chairman has asked many of the questions I had in mind to ask. For example, how would various countries try to renegotiate the REIMS agreement so as to give everyone the best possible percentage, relative to its total mail? I believe 90% of our incoming mail is Royal Mail. What percentage of our total mail is that?

Mr. Pigot

Of the mail An Post delivers every day, 20% comes from outside the country.

That is clearly something that screams out at one. I certainly was not aware of it before reading Mr. Pigot's article.

Mr. Pigot made a reasonable proposal regarding postcodes. How would barcodes work along with postcodes? Would that be an additional cost for businesses like his own or for users of the service such as ourselves? Members of the Oireachtas, collectively, are probably one of the biggest users of An Post.

I was not able to be present at An Post's presentation to this committee. All Deputies have grave concerns about any kind of attack on the universal service, which is the bulwark of what the postal service was and should continue to be. We were also upset by the postal backlog at Christmas.

May I just ask about businesses such as yours which fundamentally depend on An Post and which have used it well to create business? Is your business profitable enough for An Post? Do you envisage a situation where others will provide a universal service or part of a universal service if the regulator says that An Post will no longer be the only contributor to the universal service? Will it be possible for future providers of a universal service to make more profit from your kind of company which depends on An Post for its business?

Mr. Pigot

With regard to the bar codes, the packs we have shown you are just samples of what we have got. What we suggest is that the barcode on the pack is a representation of the barcode that we suggest at the bottom. This is not fixed in stone but is just a suggestion.

There was a question about extra cost from the business point of view. A business has to put the name and address there anyway. The font might be "times new roman" or something like that but adding a barcode is just the same thing - it is just a different font. It is a barcode 3NI font or something like that. There is really no extra cost because somebody has to type a name and address on it anyway. We are all using Inkjet or laser printers and they print those codes.

In regard to An Post, we are using sortation machines to read maybe six lines of an address. If the square card is turned the wrong way the machine cannot read the address and the card ends up going through the human process I described in my presentation. What can be done instead is that the machine reads just the barcode. The barcode can be scanned both ways like in supermarkets and we get more stuff through the machine at the sorting centre.

I do see more people being involved in the universal service or providing parts of it. I am promoting what I think should be downstream access, which is allowing trucks from people who are producing large volumes of mail to move around the system rather than going to sortation offices and sucking it through those big machines. They can just, for instance, take it from my office and go all the way to Bandon or Skibereen with it. I could take mail for instance from people in Stillorgan industrial park who have already printed their barcodes and could sort it through, put it into bags and send it out. I suppose I could end up putting bags of mail together and being part of the universal service in terms of the one who puts the bag on to a truck that brings it to Skibereen. An Post then does the last part. However, I cannot see and, in my view of where the universal service is going, I would not like to see competitors on the door to door business. Those guys in blue uniforms with the green badge are the ones that give the high quality delivery service. From my point of view, and that of my customers, it is that high quality delivery service we want to retain.

Politicians are very anxious to get a similar high quality direct marketing delivery service. We are probably one of the big direct marketing groups through the sending of our leaflets. We spend half the time wondering if those leaflets get to the door and so understand what Mr. Pigot is talking about. I would be concerned about holding on to the universal service provider.

I was concerned at our last meeting when the communications regulator made a presentation to the committee. She set out a timetable for the EU directive as to the opening up of the universal service area for post. Unfortunately, I did not hear her reply then as I had to go and now I must wait to read her reply in print. I would be interested to hear Mr. Pigot's views on the same point that the EU seems to be pushing a certain strategy which would allow in other providers. I imagine these other providers would be interested in top companies like yours. There could be cherry picking of where they might provide a good service to companies like yours which are providing well sorted mail and then it might be more expensive to send more irregular packages. What is your general view on where the EU directives are going in terms of liberalisation? Are there fears that the timetable set, which is imminent, will lead to cherry picking or is there room within the legislation to maintain the position of An Post?

Mr. Pigot

I go back and forth to Brussels maybe once a month and I sit and talk to the Commission or other post users. In regard to the legislation my personal view is it is being drafted in such a way as to point out that competition may be coming down the line. It is sort of to incentivise the incumbents into providing a better quality service and into realising that their core business is the collection, sortation and delivery of mail. There is a big fear in what we are doing, especially in privatising the postal operators, that we may end up re-monopolising the market. Does that answer the question?

I am interested in whether that is your fear.

Mr. Pigot

It is, because then what can I do?

Then they can charge you. Someone told me a public monopoly can be frustrating to deal with but a private monopoly is a different matter altogether.

We will have a question from Senator Kenneally and then suspend for a few minutes when we have finished with Mr. Pigot to allow the communication workers to set up.

I too welcome the delegation and compliment Mr. Pigot on his presentation. It is one of the better presentations I have seen at this committee. There is quite a lot to take in. Mr. Pigot has made some play about what will be done in regard to sorting mail in the larger centres. He gave the example of Drogheda and Bray moving post to Dublin and seems to be against that concept. Will he expand a little on that? He is obviously efficient in how he runs his organisation in that he can produce it for outlets all around the country and is producing one fortieth of the mail. His sortation machines can obviously cope with that volume. That suggests that An Post should be able to use similar machinery in its various centres around the country rather than spending massive sums, €150 million, on massive machines that are possibly not necessary at all. Does An Post need the regulator's agreement to go ahead and do what it is doing in regard to changing its sorting procedures? One reason I am asking is two years ago in Waterford €4 million was spent on a new state of the art mail centre. Now it has been decided that the mail is to be moved to a "super centre" in Cork. It seems to me that things are being made up as they go along and there is no long-term plan.

I also want to ask about Postaim. Is Postaim the low cost service whereby you can target every house in a town or city?

Before Mr. Pigot answers, Deputy Kelly has a question.

I am glad to hear what was said about the delivery people. Post men and women project a great image for the company in their daily deliveries. They are pleasant, cheerful, efficient and good people. In regard to the €27 million An Post is losing, is it acceptable that management should lose money or continue to operate at a loss? What should be done about that? I would point out that the computer is up to date, so what is the difference between reading a letter and reading a figure? Are you suggesting the introduction of postcodes which will cost another couple of hundred million euro? The company cannot afford it. The day is long gone when people will tolerate this. You are doing a good job running the company, Mr. Pigot, I am sure you are making a lot of money and I wish you luck. We are delighted that some arm of the postal service is making a fortune. You might be the right man to run An Post for us. Would he agree that if management cannot even break even, it is time for it to move over and put somebody else in charge?

Mr. Pigot

At the moment I sort the mail before I print it. It comes off my machine already sorted for Skibbereen. With regard to barcodes, I see myself producing mail because I get mail that I can sort and also mail that I cannot sort. It might be produced in a PDF file and might be 20,000 invoices, for example. They would be sorted by account number order. I end up with lots of mail that needs to be hand sorted before I hand it over or else I just print it with a particular font that has to go into the DMC. If I had the barcodes I could produce the same sort of mail that I am doing with all the mail that I can pre-sort. I run it off and print, put it into bags and off it goes directly to Skibbereen rather than going through the sortation process. That answers the question about the similar process because they do not print mail, they have the mail presented to them and they sort it. The barcodes would mean they would be able to go through. The big machines are able to read the barcodes and are able to do a similar job to mine. It means that they can do it anywhere but with smaller sortation equipment. It is not that expensive. That in part answers the question to do with barcodes.

An Post has a postcode system which is divided in two. One is small and has the Postaim codes with about 150 codes around the country. There are the Dublin numbers 1 to 24 and Skibbereen and Bandon and places like that. Those are their postcodes and there are the main sorting offices around the country, in for instance, Drogheda and Bray and places like that. The second postcode system is called Geo-directory. It is about nine digits long. It identifies any address in the country by nine digits. The postcode system is already in place and we do not have to spend a lot of money constructing it. The money has already been spent. I am not sure of this but I believe it is what they are using in the big sortation machines to identify the names and addresses as they read them. The pack I have given you shows the postcode and the barcode printed on the back of envelopes. The barcode in printed in orange on the back of the envelope. An Post prints these but business can print a barcode on the envelopes instead so that the barcodes are already printed. The barcode is merely a representation of the postcode. It is not as if there is huge extra cost to put this into the system. We could expect an increased quality of service if we go down the route of postcodes and if we follow it on with barcodes. One or the other does not matter but preferably both.

Does An Post need the regulator's permission to go to these super sorting centres?

Mr. Pigot

As I understand it, the regulator's responsibility is to make sure the universal service is guaranteed.

It is refreshing to hear that Mr. Pigot does not recommend the cutting off of the profit-making section. I was interested in his idea of the local box. It seems to be common sense. How would this work in a rural area? It is crazy that we seem to be subsidising the Royal Mail. My understanding is that it is one of the cheapest rates in Europe.

Mr. Pigot

With regard to the local boxes, we all know that a pillar box has just one opening but I see no reason why there cannot be boxes with two openings.

They must get rid of the loss-making section. There was a loss of €6.7 million in 2001. We have no figures.

Mr. Hynes advised the committee that it was €18 million.

Mr. Pigot

It would be nice to see where it is allocated.

Other parts of the organisation are subsidising the international mail. The post offices lost €13 million in the last year for which there are figures, not in 2002. We will not go into that now.

Mr. Pigot

With regard to the €18 million, if we look at what the regulator's accounts will be for 2002, maybe we will find that all the losses will again be in overseas inbound mail. If the €26 million was returned in the 2001 accounts, the company would be making €20 million. It seems to be a shame. If it was my problem I would be rushing to solve it pretty quickly.

Would you solve that problem before you would spend €30 million on purchasing and installation of roadside boxes?

Mr. Pigot

I would.

I am in business myself. Did you answer Deputy Crowe's questions?

I can understand how it will work in towns like Drogheda but what about the country areas?

Mr. Pigot

This may need a little investment but it does solve the problem by being a compromise solution. An Post wants to move everything into the main sorting offices and we think that is mad because Drogheda mail will go all the way to Dublin, Portlaoise or Athlone before it comes back to Drogheda. We would like to hold all the mail in Drogheda so that we can have next-day delivery there. An increase in the quality of service may mean having local boxes and the rest of the mail heads off to the big sortations. This is a compromise that I am suggesting.

I am curious about two questions. When the regulated mail is deregulated in 2007, is it your intention to deal with general mail and become a service provider? Why is An Post not offering this service to all your customers? It has purchased a number of overseas companies. Why is it not in the business you are in? Is that bar code used by any other country in Europe in the way it is in your system?

Mr. Pigot

The first question was whether I would take over An Post. Is that correct?

No, are you going into the business of delivering post to the door?

Mr. Pigot

No.

Are you expanding your network?

Mr. Pigot

No. Our core business is to take mail from companies and produce it for them. Financial institutions are outsourcing their activities so that non-core activities like producing invoices etc. are being outsourced.

If we look forward to 2007, do you think people will propose to deliver your mail throughout the country?

Mr. Pigot

I think so.

It will not be An Post alone.

Mr. Pigot

It will not be An Post alone. I think that is what will happen.

Why does An Post not offer the same service you do? Why does it not have a company offering that service to the banks, telecommunications companies etc?

Mr. Pigot

It does. It has a company called PrintPost that offers the service to do invoices and statements in Ireland. It has a subsidiary in the UK called Eirbusiness, which offers a similar service to myself.

What is the company in Ireland called?

Mr. Pigot

PrintPost.

How is it doing?

Mr. Pigot

I do not know. It is a 100% owned subsidiary of An Post so them accounts——

Is yours the largest in your business in the country?

Mr. Pigot

I think it is about the largest in my business in the country.

You suggested printing the bar code from a PC when printing letters. Is that used in any other country?

Mr. Pigot

I do not know if it is. I cannot give an example of that.

That is all right, I was just curious.

Mr. Pigot

I know it is a weak answer. I wish I had the answer. I will go and find the answer and it will be "yes", but I cannot give that answer yet.

If you find an answer to that question, will you please communicate with the clerk of the committee?

Mr. Pigot

I will of course.

I thank you and Mr. Egan for coming here and for giving us this very important presentation from an operator of the system in the country. If we need to revert to you on any matters, I hope you will be able to help the committee. If we need to use any information from your presentation when finalising our report into the postal area, I hope you will allow us to do that.

Mr. Pigot

I thank you, Chairman. If any of the members would like to visit our installation to see how it works, they are very welcome to come and see us. I would be delighted to show them around. If anybody wants to come to talk to me, that would be fine as well. I really appreciate this opportunity to present our point of view.

The committee may very well decide to take you up on that invitation if it decides to visit some of the An Post sorting offices.

Sitting suspended at 3.45 p.m. and resumed at 3.50 p.m.

I welcome the delegation from the Communications Workers Union, consisting of Mr. Con Scanlon, Mr. Stephen Brophy, Mr. Sean MacDonagh and Mr. Brian Shanny. The union will make a presentation to the committee as regards An Post. I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Mr. Scanlon is welcome to comment on the presentation by Mr. Pigot. I would welcome the delegation's views on his presentation at any stage during this discussion.

I ask the committee to excuse my voice as I have a cold and I may sound a little hoarse. I would like to comment briefly on Mr. Pigot's contribution. I thought that he was trying to be honest, but I do not agree with certain comments he made about the An Post sorting system. The union does not doubt, following an intensive investigation into why all mail was not delivered at Christmas, that all mail could have been delivered before 25 December. The system was not at fault, but rather there were problems with the way affairs were managed at the time. There were no problems with implementing new industrial practices, even if An Post may have seemed anxious to convey that such difficulties existed. The committee should listen to those involved in the new system if it wishes to understand it.

I do not doubt that the committee will take up such an invitation. I have received hundreds of telephone calls from young women who are concerned that their cards will not arrive on St. Valentine's Day. Will everything be all right for Friday?

John Hynes is keen that there will be no problems - I do not think he will receive a card if there are. I am sure that the cards will be delivered on Friday, although I am glad that I am not responsible for it. The system needs to be examined by the committee so it can understand how the technology works.

Mr. Pigot referred to the introduction of codes and it is very easy to say that codes are simple and would improve the system. The technology being used at present can read almost any address. It has a unique address system that would not be provided by codes. The new system is much better than a system of codes in many respects. I suspect that we need to examine these matters on a deeper level to ascertain why certain people are asking for the introduction of codes. Mr. Pigot would like to be able to bring mail to Skibbereen - I believe that the Chairman is from that part of the country - to be delivered there by An Post. The unique code system is of greater benefit to people like Mr. Pigot, who collect or produce mail and like to place it in the system further down. They wish to pay only the cost of delivery up-front.

The presentation my union will make today will deal with the other side of this issue. One cannot have everything the way one wants it. Someone will have to pay at some stage. It is all very well to say that one would like to have a perfect universal service, but that is no use if one takes steps that mean that regardless of whatever else one has, one does not have a universal service. Mr. Pigot's mail may be delivered cheaper, but someone in Ballydehob, the Black Valley or Donegal will have to pay more for their mail if the service develops in such a direction. People often say they want a perfect system with a high quality delivery service - Mr. Pigot made such a demand - but they do the things that make such a service impossible. As a country with a population of less that four million people, Ireland faces huge disadvantages in terms of economies of scale. My presentation will elaborate on these concerns.

We need to examine the type of environment in which we work. The Minister for Finance spoke about demographics when he launched the national pay talks. One can look at things slightly differently when one talks about demographics, if it suits one to do so. This is an important aspect of the postal service that will be provided by An Post in the future. We have a peripheral market - we represent less than 1.5% of GDP. It is hugely significant that we have the lowest ratio of citizens living in urban areas in the EU as it means that we simply do not have the economies of scale found in other countries.

One size fits all in Europe but, thankfully, the European Parliament took a huge interest in this area in the most recent EU directive. Many Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Labour Party MEPs were actively involved in the debate and put down a number of amendments. The general view was that while the market should be liberalised, account should be taken of where everyone is at present. People often talk about proportionality and subsidiarity, but they ignore such important concepts when making decisions.

Mr. Pigot referred to the fact that 28% of An Post's revenue comes from international mail, compared to the EU average of 9%. This shows that a liberalised international mail market will not help An Post - no great scientific explanation is needed to show why An Post would lose. The fee for domestic deliveries has to be charged when dealing with post from countries like Germany, France and the UK. If one sends a letter to another EU country, the local postal service charges the local delivery rate, which is higher in almost all EU member states. An Post is making a loss because it does not receive the revenue it should from the letters it delivers for the large multinational companies. It is not a complex matter.

Mr. Pigot made the point that An Post's charges have not increased for some time and I will speak about this matter later. Charges were not increased because An Post was able to survive due to the increased mail volumes that were caused by the growing economy. Mail tracks the growth, or otherwise, of the economy. If the economy is growing, mail volumes will do likewise.

I mentioned regulation and liberalisation at the beginning of this speech. The debate that took place about this matter over a long period of time eventually concluded in the European Parliament, which took a different view from the Commission. The Parliament decided on a slow roll-out of liberalisation to take account of events in the industry. The EU directive will open an average of 23% of European markets, but it will expose about 44% of An Post's market to competition. An Post will be affected by liberalisation to a greater extent due to demographic differences in Ireland and its high proportion of international mail. This proves that "one size fits all" regulations do not work. The Government's biggest decision in relation to this issue relates to the type of service it wants to provide. Many European Governments are paying lip service only to the idea of retaining the type of quality service we have in Ireland. A good standard of service cannot be maintained if one cuts corners and reduces costs.

The Chairman mentioned the question of cherry-picking. It was recently suggested that the addressed publicity post market should be liberalised. This is a matter of concern to members of the Communications Workers Union as we do not believe that one can draw a distinction between publicity post and other post. One cannot decide which mail belongs in which category. We would need to be certain this area could be policed and we do not believe that is possible. There will be cherry-picking, as there currently is in the telecommunications area. These companies do not want to compete in the west, the Black Valley or similar areas. They will only compete where they can make money, which will be in large population centres.

According to what is known as the 80:20 rule, 80% of revenue derives from 20% of customers. In such circumstances, why would one go after the other 80% of customers who only have 20% of the revenue? Companies will not be prepared to do this. If liberalisation comes about or does so too quickly, profitability will be affected and jobs will be lost all over the country.

Until now, the Government and others have shared our view on two connected issues, namely, uniform tariffs and universal service. Universal service is about providing the same service for everyone, regardless of where they live, at a uniform tariff. If one starts to liberalise in a certain way, this will no longer be possible. We saw this at first hand in telecommunications. We know that once the die is cast, it cannot be rolled back unless the Government is prepared to pay to do so. One can deliver a quality, universal service to customers - perhaps better than has been the case to date, particularly in terms of business customers - within the resources of An Post, provided it is regulated in a particular way. The only way in which this can be achieved is for the Oireachtas to set out clearly what kind of postal service it wants.

I mentioned the delays in getting increases in tariffs. I, and my colleagues, have no desire to see prices increased beyond what is fair. We have not complained that we have not had an increase in price since 1991 and when the price was rebalanced in about 1998 or thereabouts, it was slightly reduced. I understand An Post has received permission from the regulator to increase international rates, but has not cleared the hurdle on domestic rates.

A company operating in an unregulated business which was not making a profit would do what every similar business would do, namely, increase prices. If one considers how prices have evolved in the postal sector, it would almost drive one to drink. The consumer price index far exceeds price increases in postage. The cost of newspapers is a good illustration of rising prices, while transport costs continue to increase, primarily because they must.

Customers of other companies, for example, the ESB, who want a particular type of service or network must pay for it through investment. We saw this in the telecommunications sector recently when the regulator decided to change the mechanism for increasing prices from the CPI minus eight formula to CPI minus zero, which is recognition that keeping prices at current levels entails costs, one of which is that companies are forced to lose money.

We now serve many masters. We deal with the company on a daily basis through the board and chief executive. We also have a relationship with the shareholder, which is the Minister and his Department. In the middle, we have the regulator who can make arbitrary decisions, with whom no one can talk and from whom no satisfaction is forthcoming, which is frustrating.

As I stated earlier, people say all the right things. The regulator, for example, has published a report setting out her views. There has been considerable changes in the past 25 years, not all of them for the better. Her regulatory responsibility is to ensure the daily delivery of post remains an essential feature of life here. Action is needed to make that happen. Commenting on investment, Business Week noted that it is an economic truism that low prices yield low investment and one gets what one pays for.

I am sure the committee is interested in ways of improving An Post's services. We are not here to defend the company. Over the past three years, we have been involved in a radical change agreement with An Post which was set to bring about a cultural change in the way we operated and provided service to customers. In one way we did this for selfish reasons, namely, recognition that the world is being changed by deregulation and liberalisation and we will need to live in this new environment.

The introduction of new technology is essential. An Post needs to explain to the committee what it is doing with its new technology. The technology in place around the world is centralised. All the mail in Northern Ireland, for example, is brought to Belfast before being redistributed. What An Post is doing is, therefore, not unusual. The hiccups being experienced are not entirely due to a problem with a centralised system. There are also management issues which need to be ironed out. The idea of a local box has some merit and should, therefore, be considered.

The agreement we made was predicated on the introduction of substantial change. The committee will understand that one of the long-running problems in the post office was overtime. While problems arose in many forms and in many schemes, as soon as one digs a little deeper, one finds that the main problem is overtime. Staff need overtime to get a half decent wage because they are low paid, whereas the company needs overtime to run the system.

The company's problems could never be solved without addressing the overtime issue. At some risk, we decided we had to solve the problem. Our view was that the cake could be divided up in such a way as to allow An Post to pay half decent wages to its staff, while ensuring the work was done in an effective, efficient manner. Employees would be given contracts which provided that they could work a fixed amount of overtime and in return a certain measurable level of service was demanded. We made substantial progress in this regard, although at times not to the extent we would have liked. For example, last year we had some problems in the post office division, which we could have done without. Coming from the angle of the telecommunications side of the organisation, I had a feeling at one point that it would be difficult to implement changes. However, I received excellent support for them from my own side. Regrettably, however, the commitment given by the company at the outset was not sustained.

The issue of roadside letter boxes has been raised. We are discussing this matter with the company in the context of a new pay agreement in the deliveries area. The company argues that substantial savings could be made in deliveries, which is true. These would arise because fewer staff would be required. It also argues, with some justification, that roadside letter boxes are in place in other European countries, with the exception of here and Britain. We have not taken a principled stand on the issue one way or the other. We have held discussions with the company, some of which has been geared towards making savings.

At our previous meeting, I asked Mr. Hynes specifically whether the company had a master plan for the roll-out of roadside letter boxes, if a pilot scheme had been introduced and whether research had been carried out which supported the view that savings could be made of the order he mentioned. I also asked if the company had concluded agreements with the union. It is my understanding that he indicated to the committee that final discussions were under way on this matter. Is Mr. Scanlon informing the committee that nothing has been finalised? Has he seen the master plan for the roll-out of letter boxes?

No, I have not

Is there such a scheme?

It is possible Mr. Hynes has one, but I have not seen it.

It has not been shown to the staff or their representatives.

What has happened to date is that achieving cost savings has been part of the discussions on new pay and reward systems. One of the proposals put forward by the company on that score is the introduction of roadside letter boxes. The only action taken to date has been the undertaking of a feasibility study on the issue and I understand money has been allocated for the purchase of the letter boxes. Our view is simple. As with all other aspects of the discussions we are having with the company on new pay and reward systems, the matter can be addressed only through an agreement in the context of a new deal.

We have people on the road every day who meet customers and we are aware that not everyone is happy with the introduction of letter boxes. We recognise that it is not our job to force the development upon them, in fact we are strongly of the view that people should have a choice. Undoubtedly there are savings to be made, but people will have security fears or doubts about their ability to access a box at the end of a road. Where people opt for letter boxes, they should have the right to opt back in the event of a bereavement or sickness. No one should be tied into this with no prospect of getting out of it and we are prepared to work with the company to introduce these boxes on the basis that we have a new deal on pay for delivery people. That is the only way this will advance. We are equally concerned to ensure that customers do not have this forced upon them because of something we agreed with the company. There will be staff reductions, but in the context of the overall agreement it has been decided that those will be dealt with by early retirement, voluntary severance or redeployment to other parts of the business. We have provided the committee with a map which shows where we have located people and gives an idea of their numbers. The figures are our own.

There is a need for a modern approach and a modern management team to manage a company in a changing environment. Targets need to be identified, which I can see is the view of the Chairman and other members of the committee who would like to know the company's plans.

Do you agree with the committee's view that a pilot scheme should be put in place to find out if there are cost savings to be made?

If people allow these boxes to be fitted or if the regulator or the Minister decides that they should be fitted, the savings will accrue. They will accrue simply because less time and fewer people will be required to deliver letters. There is no great mystery or science about it.

I made a number of points regarding what we think a management team should look like. This is an opportunity to examine the possibilities with the appointment of a new chairman and a new chief executive who will have views as to how the business should be run. We have talked about change. Deputy Brady will be aware that in the past there was a requirement every eight to ten years to make substantial change within organisations like An Post, Telecom Éireann and other semi-States. It is different now and change must be ongoing and gradual. It will be driven by outside factors such as competition, new technology, liberalisation, regulation and customer demands. Customers will define what they want from us which may be no harm, rather than to have us continue to give them what we think is good for them. That can make An Post a better organisation. Change will result from the integration of systems and we are seeing that at the present time.

An Post's systems were generally manual up to 12 months ago, but that is changing. One of the plans for the new machinery is that mail is sorted for individual postmen at what we call the "walks" whereas it used to be the case that mail was sent to be sorted locally. The postman will get his mail in a parcel rather than having to sort it from a sack with four or five others. In order to understand what is happening with mechanisation committee members need detailed information from An Post.

The committee will be aware that the issue of a universal service was legislated for with provision made for universal tariffs, frequency of delivery, access and conditions. In some countries legislation provides for the preservation of rural networks. Our view is that if we want a particular type of service, we should not leave the matter to the regulator or anyone else to decide. The decision as to the type of service we have should be made by the Government and the Oireachtas. If people want letters to be delivered five or six days per week in every corner of the country at a uniform tariff, the regulator should be so instructed. There is a cost in doing that. Letters cannot be delivered to many rural areas at profit. You have two choices if you are changing the system we have. People must be made to pay more or someone must subsidise deliveries. If you are of the view that everyone is entitled to the service, its cost must be set at a uniform price which permits the delivery of letters to every corner of the country five or six days per week. It has been left to national or European regulators to decide what to do and they cannot be blamed if the Minister, the Government or the Oireachtas fail to set out exactly what they want in terms of a postal service. That is not to say that An Post should have a free hand. We want a modern, up-to-date, efficient service that gives the maximum employment possible and effectively services the needs of the community and business.

As the universal provider, An Post is obliged to deliver the mail five days per week. If the Government decides it must be delivered on a sixth day, as it is in the UK, it would be obliged to carry out its instructions. When the area is deregulated, I presume market forces will direct how the company operates.

That is interesting and we have heard it before. I do not know if the committee has a brief with regard to telecommunications, but you are not going to get a service unless someone pays for it. Telecommunications and postal companies are not interested in competing in the west or rural areas. They are only interested in areas in which they can make money, which is fine. We have no difficulty with that, but the need for investment must be taken into account. The State owns the companies no longer and cannot instruct them to invest. At some point An Post will have to fulfil its obligation in law to break even. If it cannot do that because of the pricing regime, something has to give and services will undoubtedly suffer. We should not pretend everything will work out if we do nothing.

I do not think anyone would support the idea of a part-time postal service - we want the current top class service to continue. I believe we can have a universal service with uniform tariffs. I would be the first to admit that we have shortcomings, but we can correct them. We need a good management team and cohesion between the unions, staff and management. I am delighted the committee is taking an interest in this area. I do not think this matter should be just left to the regulator. We are speaking to Members of the Oireachtas who have the power to do something. I do not expect that we will get it all our own way. There is a consensus of opinion on the type of service we want and An Post is central to providing this.

The Chairman asked some questions in regard to the role of An Post. In some respects, while I have been critical of management, it has not been bad in regard to looking for new business opportunities, but no doubt there is room for improvement. We have to keep an eye to the future. Our business is the delivery of letters, which includes sorting them and so on. In five years' time things will probably be quite different and we have to be prepared for that; we could be distributing, not alone letters, but also goods. There are already changes afoot in that people are beginning to shop on the Internet. We have to be prepared to meet the demands of a new marketplace. There is no reason we could not meet those new demands.

Our view is pragmatic with regard to alliances. We are being very careful. We are not convinced that we should go for an alliance for the sake of it. If it fits in to the company's business plan that is fine, but if it does not we would be wary of it. At one time there was a view in the telecoms sector that one had to have a strategic alliance, which we all supported because we needed the international link. We had an alliance partner that was guaranteed an IPO when it bought into the company. We assumed that giving it an interest in the company, rather than just a partnership, would increase its level of commitment but it did nothing of the sort. For two years our communications partner wanted to leave the company and this kept the share price of Eircom down over that period. Many people lost out because of it and given that experience we will be wary.

There are obvious key issues for employees. We have set up an ESOP. The agreement was made in July 2000 and while the legislation is not yet in place there is a commitment by the Minister to do what is necessary. It is due to happen this spring and we cannot have it dragging on beyond that. Some of these issues are dealt with in the draft of the Bill. There is no provision for the nomination of a director but the Minister has the power to make that appointment. There is a need to deal with those who have left the company and who have an entitlement to a share application to ensure they do not lose out. There is a reference to an amendment to the Companies Act, which would allow the ESOP, to borrow money for the purpose of buying shares.

We want a viable and efficient post office service and we are working towards that. We accept that there are difficulties but believe that the only way we can get the kind of service the country deserves and needs is if the Oireachtas legislates for it and directs the regulator accordingly.

I welcome Con, Brian, Stephen and Seán. I do not know if that is the right order of seniority. I thank them for an excellent presentation that clarified the issues in hand. It was so comprehensive that there are very few questions left to ask.

I am a former member of the CWU and am proud to be associated with that union. I am also a former employee of An Post. I worked with the P&T, as it then was, in the sorting office in Sheriff Street.

Last week the chief executive officer of An Post, John Hynes, told this committee that the company had losses of €18 million. How do the delegates see the CWU contributing to reducing the current losses? Reference was made to the post boxes and Mr. Scanlon indicated to us that surveys had taken place in regard to the issue and that everything was hunky dory. He referred to meetings with the CWU where it was agreed that if it got the green light from us it would save the company up to €50 million. I indicated that we had certain reservations about them in regard to security, vandalism and so on. For instances, post boxes are often set on fire. He did not envisage that as being a problem. He said the new boxes should be almost completely safe as they are composed of reinforced steel. He also said that routes were tested and there was general agreement on them and that An Post would continue to deliver packets to households.

I forgot to ask him if there is an onus on An Post to deliver to the customers if they do not wish to have a letterbox. What happens if everybody on an entire road or in a townland does not wish to have letterboxes? What discussions were held with the unions in this regard and who attended them? He led us to believe that detailed discussions were held.

I also asked him if a re-organisation is envisaged in regard to the DOs. He indicated that there would not be any, but in cases of an overload of mail from an area such as Clonshaugh, that this would be transferred to the DMC. There is some confusion about this issue. Those involved in the union worked at An Post and obviously would not have agreed to something like that. Why would mail be brought from Drogheda to the DMC for sorting? I am sure there is a reason for this.

From time to time I meet postmen who are concerned about being attacked. This was not the case when I was a postman. What is the company doing to allay their fears? What safety precautions are in place? Is counselling provided for those who have been involved in an attack? A friend of mine was attacked in a DO and was very seriously injured. We should be very conscious of this important matter and we must ensure the safety of workers.

An Post, of which Mr. Pigot would paint a different picture, provided a tremendous service over the years in very difficult circumstances and with very scarce resources. There were a few unions at the time and they served their members very well, which should be recognised. The public got a good delivery service and got a good social service as well in many respects. Often, the only contact many people living on their own in rural areas have is with the postman, who might bring their messages. Pillar-boxes would eliminate that trend.

The CWU has done a tremendous job for its members and I congratulate it for that. Deputy Kelly said to me before he left that Mr. Scanlon should apply for the job of chief executive officer of An Post because he is tremendous.

Could Mr. Scanlon answer those questions, most of which were compliments, before I ask Deputy Broughan for his contribution?

In terms of losses, we are involved with discussions with the company that are geared to bring about change, create a new pay and reward system to move away from the dependence by all sides on overtime, and make savings. We have made substantial progress in that we recently concluded an agreement with the post offices division. We have concluded agreements in respect of the Dublin mail centre and the other centres that are being introduced and, recently, in respect of different sections of staff in the ancillary services. The main issue for us now concerns delivery and post boxes.

Traffic, like everything else, is creating problems for everyone. Difficulties are emerging in terms of transporting anything anywhere, but collecting mail and delivering it back to the mail centre at particular times in the evening has undoubtedly given rise to difficulties. That must be examined very closely by the company to see how it can be managed.

In answer to Deputy Martin Brady's question about the delivery of letters, I understand that, as matters now stand, a letter has to be delivered to the address printed on it. An Post will have to get permission from the regulator before it can introduce letterboxes, and perhaps a Minister will have a say in the matter.

We have been involved in discussions with An Post on what we call the deliveries project. The project involves bringing about substantial change in the deliveries area, creating a new pay package and, as I stated already, bringing about savings for the company. One of those elements includes the introduction of letter boxes. We have had a feasibility study, but matters have not progressed further than that. There was no agreement with us to introduce letter boxes. We have not made a principled stand against it, but we feel it should be left up to the individual to decide whether he wants a letter box or not. I share the Deputy's view that there are security issues, which people will be concerned about in one way or another.

We have to take into account cases where people are sick or bereaved. The proposals must be open to change. If someone loses a spouse, for example, and ends up living alone, this has to be addressed.

I am a bit confused over a certain matter. Did Mr. Hynes consult the staff at all in respect of letter boxes before he did his survey of 1,000 people? He certainly did not consult the 1.4 million customers or the 140,000 commercial customers.

In the discussions we are having in respect of deliveries, pay and change, we discussed postboxes with the company. However, the company may have issued statements on how many postboxes it will introduce. I have seen circulars from the company saying this measure has to be made. We are not part of that process and it is a matter for another day. If we reach agreement with the company, it will be in the context of a new deal on pay and change for the delivery staff.

Was the advertisement premature? I asked the regulator two weeks ago if she thought the management of the company jumped the gun, and I think she agreed that it did. Therefore, it is a bit premature for the company to be placing advertisements saying it will introduce 500,000 letter boxes, thus generating much discussion on the matter and taking up the time of this Oireachtas committee as well.

I think the Chairman is correct because the company needs the authority from the regulator and agreement with its staff to carry that out. I think it also needs agreement with its customers to do so, a process which needs to take place.

Did your union make a submission to the regulator in that respect?

We did not do so in respect of the issue of letter boxes. We share many of the views of the regulator on this matter, with whom we do not often agree.

Intensive discussions are taking place with the company regarding the issue of attacks on post persons. It does not only concern postmen, but also people who may be sitting at counters and taking a lot of abuse or receiving threats. This has not been publicised very much, mainly because this could make it worse and give the impression that it is worth people's while to carry out these acts. I am thankful that the attacks are few, but one is too many and people end up very traumatised as a result of them. We feel the need to consider legislation to protect people who deliver mail, like they have in countries such as the US, especially if there is no change in the way people deal with the issue.

The small size of the country must be considered when examining people's requirements. If one is to have universal service and uniform pricing in every part of the country, it cannot be done for nothing. For instance, one cannot accommodate people who want downstream access. They want to do all the processing themselves but want An Post to deliver. They want a high quality delivery service with the fellows with the green jumpers and blue shirts, but one cannot sustain that kind of delivery service unless one gets money from somewhere. If everyone from whom one can make money had easy and cheap access and someone else to deliver their letters for them, it could create a problem.

In his presentation, Mr. Pigot mentioned mail posted in Drogheda, for example, which is brought to the DMC. I am sure there is a reason for it.

The reason is that these systems are designed to take large amounts of mail. However, one needs to be able to transport the mail to the mail centre on time and to be able to get it back out again. The main problem is created by traffic. This can be resolved, but I see merit in having some kind of local mailbox system. It is not as simple as having the machines everywhere.

Arguments exist for bar coding. Letters are bar coded, but there is no better system than the system which gives every citizen a unique address. The technology works very well. It takes a long time for people to get used to codes. When a code was introduced in London some years ago it caused mayhem and the problem was not solved for years. It would not be solved quickly here either and therefore there is no panacea in terms of introducing codes. It might have been justified a few years ago but advances in technology are such that it is not necessary.

I welcome Mr. Scanlon and the delegation. I found his presentation informative in the context of the issues An Post presented in recent weeks. The Labour Party has a generally close relationship with the CWU and is concerned that good, well-paid unionised employment should continue throughout the postal services. The personalised service to every nook and cranny of the country has been a central feature of social life. The call from the postman forms a vital infrastructure, particularly for seniors. The authorities have often been alerted about senior citizens in difficulties by postmen. This is valuable and I would be loath to abandon it. When it was first suggested, the chief executive of An Post spoke of erecting postboxes to serve a number of households at the end of boreens. I find that unacceptable; I am strongly in favour of the personalised and universal service.

We politicians have some experience of going from door to door. I have often wondered why the unions did not go ballistic about lower post flaps in front doors; all of us have back trouble because of it. Builders were allowed to do this until recently and I understand some of the union's members ran a campaign to have this abandoned.

While the Labour Party welcomes the idea of ESOPs, it would be suspicious about some of the developments of which the union is fearful. Looking at the experiences at Team Aer Lingus, Aer Lingus, Eircom and the lunacy of the conditions being imposed on ESB, I would be suspicious that the company is deliberately being put in difficulties. We did not know about REIMS, but comments that businessman made were very instructive. Job cuts, financial losses, outsourcing and privatisation of local services could create an inevitability of An Post becoming privatised and losing the universal obligation. I am suspicious of the circumstances that are being imposed on the workforce. The workforce is about 8,500. How does that figure compare with five and ten years ago? What is likely to happen arising from the installation of new technology in the future?

I know the union represents the telecom sector. Email was mentioned in the presentation and Deputies now do a lot of work by email and we can see the movement towards this. On the other hand, greeting cards and other documents will always have to be hard copy for the foreseeable future. It is interesting to note the union is anticipating this.

The union seems to be very critical of management regarding the necessity of a strategic alliance. Does this stem from staff cutting and technological reforms or from a perception that management is not being frank with the workforce or consumers?

The Minister has done some work on the universal obligation and the regulator has made her contribution. Labour agrees with the approach to regulation outlined by the delegation; we will tell the regulator what we want and ask her to deliver it fairly. We do not want to see a diminution of services that might lead to rural areas not having a universal service.

I compliment delegation on its presentation. I was glad to hear its comments on the introduction of roadside postboxes. An Post should not force anyone to use a box at the end of his or her lane. How often does the management of An Post meet the CWU committee? Does Mr. Hynes meet with the committee regularly and does he listen to it? Mr. Pigot spoke about postcodes earlier. What is the union's opinion on their introduction? When I post a letter in Dublin on a Wednesday morning it is not delivered in Wexford until Friday morning. This is disappointing; letters should be delivered the next day no matter what part of Ireland it is sent to.

Is the union suggesting that it will be easier for An Post to increase postal costs if postcodes are introduced? The union mentioned the problems An Post had at Christmas. In previous years staff were put on overtime but that did not seem to happen last year. What is the union's feeling on that? Is the union in favour of centralised sorting offices? Is this a positive move or as the previous delegation, which was impressive, suggested is the local box solution better?

The union has had some difficulties. Esat lobbied hard and refused to recognise it. What is the situation now? Has the union organised in new industries such as the call centres and so on that are springing up? What is the union's view on public ownership of communications utilities?

Deputy Broughan spoke about signals indicating the liberalisation of the ESB. It is clear this is nonsense because two companies dominate the market. Will the EU directive to liberalise the postal service not mean we will be dominated by one or two companies rather than enjoy liberalisation and decentralisation? What is the union's view on the broadband issue and does it feel Eircom, NTL and Esat are investing in the network? It appears that the State alone is investing in it. These companies seem to be ignoring it to the detriment of access to services in the sector.

I share many of Deputy Broughan's concerns.

The company is facing a liberalised, deregulated or re-regulated market. One of the difficulties is that nothing is settled - we cannot see the way forward. An Post needs to know what the regulatory future holds for it. This is all the more reason that the Government or Minister should say exactly what they want and tell the regulator to regulate for it. Uncertainty is a huge issue.

We share concerns about the post boxes. We have entered discussions in the context of the company needing to make savings. If we were to ignore it there would be many difficulties. The company must be modernised and introduce new technology and mechanisation. We cannot stop the company putting other issues on the table. We are particularly concerned with the IR aspects of the way these changes affect people within. From the agreements we have made with the company, we believe we can manage the internal difficulties although we would much prefer if they were not there.

The other concern is that every trade union must have a social conscience in relation to matters such as security. There is a difference between countries such as Australia and America, which have had these boxes for many years, and Ireland. They are not generally interfered with because there is something sacrosanct associated about them. I am not sure we can create that overnight. There are also concerns for people living on their own. As Deputy Broughan mentioned, we have heard stories on the radio that letters are written to people simply to get the postman to knock on the door to deliver the letter and make sure the person is all right. One can argue that is not part of the modern world we live in where everything is liberalised and opened up. However, that is where we must make a decision - the Oireachtas can make a difference. I have no doubt we can have a top class service that will provide all that for people and we can do so without subsidies if we are regulated properly. We can satisfy the citizens on this.

Staff numbers are slightly up but the balance between part-time and full-time staff has changed. We now have far more part-time staff of necessity because it is a peak-driven business and people are needed at particular times. Equally, this suits people who need part-time jobs such as when two people are working in a household. I suspect that, in the coming years, because of mechanisation, rationalisation and restructuring, those numbers will drop again. We have agreement with the company that these cutbacks will be dealt with by voluntary means or through redeployment within the system. We are satisfied we can manage that.

In terms of email and competition one can now get cards on the Internet and send them. One of the points the regulator has made is that there is already competition in the market, whether that is through electronic means or people have access to the system. One cannot become a telecommunications company overnight but one can become a courier or a deliverer of letters. There is easy access into the system. There is lots of competition in there. We have no problem with competition. It is already there in Dublin and the big centres but if we want to ensure we have a first class postal service in the rest of the country, we must legislate for it. The regulator will do what the Oireachtas says. In the past, the EU and national governments have hidden behind the regulator. They say the EU says we must do something and the regulator regulates accordingly. People are beginning to recognise that one cannot do that. Despite improvements in the prices the company got, the big losers will be people living in rural areas. We are talking about rolling out DSL at the moment but our ability to have the networks that will take DSL or any other technology will depend on how much we invest in it. There is nothing for nothing, as they are finding out with the ESB. I do not claim to be an expert but people were led to believe that if we had competition everything would be better, but prices have increased by more than 25% or 26%. In the telecommunications sector, in order to accommodate the competition, prices had to go up because everyone has to get their margin. This is not bringing prices down. One must examine that closely. I am not against competition but if one looks at Eircom, there is a company which is not building networks or investing, they are using Eircom's networks to provide the customer with a service. The regulator is insisting Eircom provides those companies with wholesale rates so they can compete with Eircom using its networks and switches to provide a service. I do not know if that is competition but I have reservations about it. I have no objections to it but it looks like the regulator creating something that passes for competition and the biggest downside is that there is minimal investment and we will pay the price for that later. If one limits what people can make, one limits the amount they will put back in.

Deputy Crowe asked about discussions with the company. We have ongoing discussions with it - sometimes they are not all they should be - and we had a good partnership process in place which has not worked as well as it might have, which is a disappointment because it took a lot of doing to get our people to buy into this. They came from a totally different background in terms of how business is done. Everyone will remember the post office in the past, and the attrition. It was not easy to change that and move to this situation. We are not totally satisfied but it would be unfair to leave it at that because we are doing good business with good people in An Post and it would be unfair to tar everyone with the same brush.

I have reservations in relation to post codes. We have a good system, the basis of which is a geographic system that gives everyone a unique address. We have technology to read almost anything - one would be amazed at what can be done. Anything that is not read by the system is stored and sorted subsequently by people looking at video screens. They can sort thousands of letters in a very short time, all remotely, and the system then puts those letters where they are supposed to be. It can sort an awful lot of mail.

I do not know for sure, but I have to wonder why, if we have that, we need a code system as well. If one opposes it, however, one looks as though one is hiding something. People want a code system because it would enable them to put mail into the system down-stream, without going through all the processes, and they expect to get a cut price for it. An Post will still carry all the costs, because whether one has 1,000 or 3,000 letters the systems going through them are more or less the same. All the costs would be there but it would not be getting as much for the mail. This needs to be investigated by the committee.

I am very disappointed with the delayed letters, because obviously we want to put our best foot forward and provide the best possible service. Our people are pretty proud of what they do, and delivering the next day is a priority. If it is not happening, that should be highlighted with management because if there is a problem it can be resolved. If it is not a once-off but a serious problem that is happening on an ongoing basis, it should be taken up with the company.

And the regulator - there is provision for that.

Yes, if there is no change from the company.

I would not agree with Mr. Pigot's view of the problems at Christmas. It sounds like a rumour that has gone around. Better management of the centre and the way things were done would have solved all those problems. It was not a question of overtime, of the system being unable to handle it, or anything like that. It was simply not handled well, and everybody now recognises that. If overtime was the issue that would have been put in, but there were many people around and everything was there - it was just not managed as well as it could have been.

What is happening all over Europe and the world is that large companies like Siemens are producing big machines that can handle enormous volumes of mail, but they are very expensive. By the way, I think the Chairman should check the figure for investment, because if An Post had €156 million I would be delighted, but I do not think it has. The figure for investment is much lower than that, but one would need to check with the company.

I checked while Mr. Pigot was talking: it was €118 million plus €45 million to be invested this year, if I am correct. I wrote it somewhere.

These machines obviously do work, because everyone around the world is using them. In Northern Ireland, everything is pulled into Belfast and pushed out again the next day. All the transport systems and collections and so on must be pulled together. There is another aspect to this: the company has plans to sort down to delivery areas, routes or "walks", as Deputy Martin Brady said. One cannot have it every way. If one has a system that can do that, and it works, one must use it. However, that will take time.

We have been successful in terms of organising, although we have not got into O2. We do have people in there, but we do not have recognition from the company and we do not have big numbers. We are trying to organise on an ongoing basis. We have someone who is dedicated to this and we intend to add another person this year, with a view to stepping up our attempts to organise. We are a bit disappointed with what emerged from the national talks. There is no denying that it is progress, but it falls far short of what we need. If any country in the world could look at it differently, given the benefits we have got from social partnership and the involvement of trade unions and so on, it should be Ireland. To be fair, the Taoiseach has said that he will look at it again and that is welcome. If there is not good will, however, from employers in terms of trying to do business, it will not get done. Equally, if a different approach to recognition is developed we should have a different approach to how problems are dealt with and the issue of compliance also comes into it. One goes with the other. At the moment we have one but not the other. That will create difficulties for us.

There is no right or wrong answer to the question of public ownership. My view is that one cannot say something should be privatised for the sake of it. How to provide citizens of the State with the same service they would get from a publicly-owned organisation is an issue. One of the things that has emerged in all this is regulation. A long time ago we decided that ownership would not be the big issue, but when that issue was decided for us, regulation became a much bigger issue. Maybe that is an area that has not had enough attention politically. This is understandable, to some extent. This happened first to Eircom. It was a very complex and difficult area to understand and people shied away from it to a large degree. It happened almost without people noticing. When transport, power and many other areas are included, including post offices, regulation becomes a huge issue. That is the issue that will determine, rather then who owns the company, the type of service people will get.

I welcome this meeting because it is undoubtedly valuable to be able to discuss these issues with the people who will determine, in the long run, how things will work and the type of service that will be provided.

We are actively pursuing Deputy Crowe's concerns. I know he is standing in for Deputy Morgan today, but we are dealing with this in the ICT sub-committee. We will be moving faster than the speed of light on this issue within the next week or two.

That is hopefully the aim of broadband. A view that is held strongly by people is that many of these private companies are not investing in us.

It is not a matter for Mr. Scanlon, but he may certainly give his view.

We represent people in the telecoms area.

I did not know that. We may be talking to Mr. Scanlon at some later stage about that.

We support the idea of providing citizens with a broadband service. There is a question mark over how much people want, but that will be quantified in due course. Eircom has agreed recently, at the direction of the Minister to some degree, to introduce fixed-cost access to the Internet and to introduce DSL, which is welcome. My concern is that the necessary investment in networks and systems is not there and that in a couple of years we will find all this out. This is a function of the regulator. A company must make a rate of return that will allow it to invest. If it does not, it will not invest. A total of 70% of Eircom is owned by VCs - what some people might call quick money. They are here for a period of time and then they are gone. They are good people, not people without hearts, but they have one aim: to make money. They will play ball with Government and the regulator, and there will be investment in this area, but it is based on being able to make a reasonable rate of return, not an extravagant one. In terms of strategic placing, Eircom is key. It has a network that reaches to every corner of the country. Broadband is only possible in every part of the country, however, if that network is up to standard. To do that, there is a need for investment. It could be joint investment with the Government, because the Government is putting in funds, but investment is required. The area must be regulated in a way that makes sure the investment is made.

There is only one way to make that happen, Mr. Scanlon, and that is through competition. We will be considering this issue over the next three months and we might ask you to come in and talk to us about that again.

I have no problem with competition. If that was all it was about, everything would be fine.

The national backbone will be rolled out by ESB and the LANs will be rolled out by the 19 local authorities, giving a national backbone and a local fibre network.

My concern is that there can be fibre around the country but we have not met up yet. We can build rings around towns but how can we get Joe Citizen connected? We have to be able to connect him to the network to make use of these tools.

We will be talking about the first mile and the last mile in a couple of weeks, so the witness might come in to see our views on that. We spent some time in the United States looking at a system where they charge $21 per month for 24 hour connection seven days a week. This is driven by competition.

It looks as if the lights could be going out in a few years time because of the determination to introduce phoney competition into the market. Mr. Scanlon made the point that the rural nature of the country and the dispersed nature of the population must be considered in energy and communications. Competition is not always the answer. Where we are looking for competition, such as in the retail area, the ordinary consumer cannot win.

We asked the regulator two weeks ago if she thought An Post should be compensated for reasonable expenditure. She was of a positive view so I hope that will be reflected in her decisions in future. Mr. Scanlon is saying that the regulator is assuming the role of driver of efficiencies, productivity and cost. If that is the case, should An Post not be doing this and not the regulator?

Company management spoke two weeks ago about 1,200 redundancies. Mr. Hynes told us on behalf of the company that it would cost €52 million to fund that redundancy package but the company had €50 million left in cash from the sale of Ireland On Line. Mr. Hynes was of the view that the matter would be resolved this year and he would expect to lose €9 million in 2003, with €18 million lost in the group's activities in 2002. Is the company top heavy with managers? Would the staff or unions have confidence in the management of the company and the direction in which it has been taken in recent years? Does the company face a serious cash crisis by 2004, having used up all of the money it got from Ireland On Line? It could be between €137 million and €150 million if the 1,200 redundancies are not achieved.

I was interested in what was said about the alliance. An Post is rapidly losing package business in the unregistered area. Deutsche Post has purchased DHL, Securicor and Danzas, TPG in the Netherlands is linked to TNT and Interlink has been bought by La Poste. The Royal Mail in Britain has Williams and GLS and we have SDS. I find SDS to be very good but An Post must find itself in an area where it is losing. Are the unions making any proposals to the management about new business? Are they looking at those companies that are winning business and making suggestions about how to develop strategies to recover lost business? Do the unions have a vision for the company?

The regulator is driving efficiencies and costs because recently she said she would give us an increase because we were losing out internationally then granted only half of it, with the rest being made up in costs. How can anyone make an arbitrary decision like that? We are involved on an ongoing basis with the company trying to find solutions to problems. That is one of the reasons why we got into this agreement in the first place. That was a hard sell with our own people, it barely got consent, but we moved on and have made a number of agreements with the company which are geared to reduce costs overall and to make the company more efficient.

Is that a reference to the redundancies?

No. Staff cannot be removed until arrangements are made to do the work in a different way and the mechanisation is in place. As we move forward, there will be people who will avail of early retirement and voluntary severance. There are people waiting to go now who cannot go because An Post cannot let them go. I do not know how many will eventually leave the company but our view is that we can deal with the redundancy package put forward by the company over time. We will be able to manage it within the company. If that cannot be done, no change can be made. We have made substantial progress. New technology has been introduced in the plant in Little Island and trying to resolve the people difficulties is not easy. We are almost ready to sign off on the discussions.

Will the voluntary redundancy package be complete by the end of 2003?

It will be an ongoing process.

So the 1,200 redundancies the company told us it would be seeking will not be achieved this year.

I could not say for sure but there would be difficulties in achieving that because it would not be possible to move on it. Everything must come together to deal with such a situation. I cannot say it will not happen but there will be some difficulty in completing it this year.

That is a different view from that of Mr. Hynes, who indicated that the management of the company expected to complete this by the end of the year.

He has a different role from me. I am giving my view based on what is happening in the company. We must achieve certain things before people can be moved out and I am not sure that will happen by the end of the year.

I wanted this matter to be clarified because the company expected it to happen by the end of 2003.

On the question of whether we have confidence, the fact that there will be changes creates uncertainty. I believe we will have a new chairman and a new chief executive officer and perhaps a new team sometime this year. Confidence has been dented. We have had rows we should not have had on issues and agreements we thought we had that should be implemented. We have not been found wanting. If one looks at our record in terms of what has happened we have made substantial agreements that will bring real savings to the company. We are doing it for the very simple reason the company cannot continue as it is. We are prepared to make those changes and to deal with them.

Mr. Scanlon's views must reflect the views of members. Is he saying his members would have lacked confidence in management from time to time?

What I would say is that there are a lot good people within the company. I would be very reluctant to tar them with the same brush. There is a need for change in the management team and, hopefully, that will make a difference either this year or in the new year. In terms of the cash crisis, there is no point in doing what we are doing if it does not make a difference and if it does not solve that particular issue. Obviously we expect to make progress and that the company will return to profitability.

In relation to SDS we have been involved constantly for the past month in a permanent session with the company and advisers from both sides to create a new set up within SDS. We understand there is a problem, we are facing up to it and it is not just about a fix for this year, we want to make sure this company continues into the future. We are prepared to make the changes.

On the strategic alliance, we are not in principle opposed to it but we have learned a bitter lesson in the context of Eircom and the strategic alliance there. It did not deliver what it was supposed to deliver.

What alliance had Eircom?

Eircom, before the IPO——

Surely, one does not have to purchase or be purchased by a company to have a strategic alliance.

No, that is the point I am making. We need to look at what type of alliance it is, whether it involves the whole business or part of if, if it is a partnership, etc. So we are not opposed——

Is it important for the future of the company to have a European alliance?

Certain aspects of it. It makes no difference to the post offices division but it does make a difference to SDS.

Is it important?

It is important that we look at the type of alliance and who we have it with because most of these partnerships and alliances break down not because of any business issues but because of cultural compatibility.

Would Mr. Scanlon wait until 2007 to look for the alliance?

Absolutely not. As we speak discussions are taking place with partners for SDS.

On the whole area of the new business, I was fascinated, as I am sure my colleagues were, with Mr. Pigot who said he has a niche market for the business he is in. Yet he mentioned a company, Print Post——

Print Post.

Please forgive me, I never heard of it. I do not know whether it has been advertised or whether the company communicates that information to potential customers. Are there many of these niche companies such as Mr. Pigot's?

There are quite a few companies. To be fair, An Post is not bad at nosing out new business areas. An Post owns another company, Bill Post, which employs about 36 or 37 people. It processes billing which is a similar type operation for many companies, including Eircom. To be fair, An Post is not bad at getting into areas it needs to get it into. It bought a company in the UK recently which is important strategically to the business. There are some things the company does very well. If one takes the Christmas backlog, An Post rightly got grief about the half million letters that were not delivered, but no one mentioned the 100 million that were delivered over a short period. The company has not got grief from us today.

Our concern today is whether the company can survive into the next decade. Mr. Scanlon has already explained that his members will deliver Valentine cards. That is important. Our main concern here is that the company's losses are mounting, the company's cash reserves are declining, the windfall received will be spent or almost spent by 2003 and the company will then have to borrow. The company cannot get subsidies from the Government and the market will open up in 2007. Of those looking at the business, there will be those who will want the 80:20 rule. Even in their business there is an 80:20 rule as well because they have a small customer and a big customer. The concern of the joint committee is the state of the finances and the direction the company is taking. The most important difficulty, as we have seen with the letter post, if one looks at the inbound and outbound reserved and non-reserved mail, with losses of €25 million in 2001, is that it has to be renegotiated. That is the main area of activity, other than the post offices division which lost €13 million in 2001, which is haemorrhaging the company's funds. In fact the company is making money on its own letter post delivery, on domestic non-reserved and on the overseas activities but is losing money on its agreements with REIMS.

The joint committee should have a look at how An Post is remunerated for international post. It is not as simple as renegotiating REIMS. REIMS is built on quality. If it has a top quality service it gets top dollar for it. Service decline is measured by transposers which are put into envelops and pass through gates which tell everyone that it passed through a gate in Germany today, and will pass through a gate in the DMC tomorrow. Therefore, it is known when it is delivered and the company can determine what type of service is being provided. That determines the quality of service and what one gets out of a pool, so to speak. The real killer, and there is no getting away from it, is that successive Governments, Ministers and the regulator would not give the increases it needed. My members can do a hands dance but if we do not get a reasonable increase from the regulator there will still continue to be a loss.

The reasonable increase is for domestic mail and international outbound non-reserved mail and reserved mail. What about the international inbound reserved mail and non-reserved mail where the company lost €19.3 million in 2001? What will it be like when the figures are produced for 2002?

If we are delivering we can only charge the Germans, British, French or any other international country what we charge for domestic mail. They in turn will charge us based on what they charge for domestic mail which is higher than our rate. They will charge An Post VAT for delivering our post in Germany or wherever else. That is the difficulty. We are——

Does Mr. Scanlon know that in respect of the international outbound non-reserved mail the company made €10.8 million? Yet on the international outbound reserved mail it lost €5.6 million. What I am trying to comprehend is that if the company is receiving mail to deliver, how can it lose money on that?

Because all the customers are obliged to pay the company is the cost of delivering an ordinary letter here, which is determined by the cost of the stamp.

Why should that be different because the company is making a profit on letter post here?

It will charge what it charges domestically for delivering letters, which is higher. You are delivering its letters at a cheaper rate than what it charges for delivering your letters. When it comes to reconciling this issue, if the volumes of mail are approximately the same, you will lose.

Mr. Stephen Brophy

The non-reserved area can be priced up. The non-reserved area is not price regulated.

One can charge more for it.

Mr. Brophy

Yes.

So in the international outbound reserved area you were losing €5.6 million and in the international inbound reserved area you are losing——

Chairman, would it be helpful if we made some kind of submission in that regard?

That would be welcome because it is difficult for us to understand it. If, as it appears to the committee, losses to the tune of €25 million are being subsidised by the other activities, there is something wrong.

It will not be solved by negotiations on REIMS because the balance is elsewhere.

Perhaps you could give us some more detail on that because I am sure Deputy Broughan would be keen to see the breakdown.

The point made about the constraints placed on the company over the years is important also. Perhaps it is a question of somebody deliberately fattening the turkey for Christmas in a particular way, which will come when the whole market is privatised. I am cynical about developments in this whole area when I consider companies which delivered a good service, employed many people and were central to our infrastructure and then look at something like Deutsche Post in Germany, or any other country, which has an integral part in the nation's life. I do not want to be too political but we have to be on occasions. It is a little like the moaning and groaning we heard just after the general election. Everything was kosher in the run-up to the election but we were in dire straits after it during which we went through all kinds of agony over the so-called phoney cutbacks. They were not phoney because they had an effect on people in hospitals and schools throughout the country. The accounts for the year show that the country had a surplus of somewhere in the region of €5.5 billion. We had a great deal of money to use as we saw fit and fiscal decisions were made almost in a negative way.

It is the determination of the Labour Party, and I presume of the other Opposition parties on this committee, to ensure An Post delivers a universal service going forward and offers high quality employment throughout the State and that the company is not done down through the malicious interpretation, or misinterpretation, of EU directives. The most famous example of the experience in other countries is British Rail. People used to laugh about the sandwiches provided, but it provided a very good service, although that cannot be said for it now. A great deal of money has been taken in profit but there has been no investment in the service. People like Mr. Branson are feted for his achievements in other areas but he does not deliver in the transport area.

It is important to recognise that a large portion of this committee's membership does not agree with you, Chairman, in relation to this matter. We need to determine the true position and distinguish between the real and the not so real. The points the union made today in relation to constraints on tariffs and prices on the universal service need to be taken into account before we make any recommendations to Government.

I appreciate what you are saying, Deputy, and you are entitled to your views, as is every other member of the committee, and I am sure those views are important.

I thank Mr. Scanlon and his colleagues for coming in today. We would be grateful to receive the additional information to which I referred and if the Clerk needs to communicate with you on any other matter in relation to your presentation, I ask that you assist him so that we can progress our work on An Post. We will eventually report back to the committee and to the Oireachtas on this matter. I have no doubt we will be seeing you again in the near future in terms of the other hat you wear in the other communications area which is of concern to us.

I express my thanks to you, Chairman, and to the committee. It was extremely useful to us to come here. We are greatly honoured to have the opportunity to talk to the members on what are important issues not just for us but for the entire country. We have selfish interests in some regards but not altogether. We are concerned that the country has a top class postal service, above all else, and an effective and efficient An Post, and that is what we will strive to achieve. Thank you very much.

Some members had to leave to attend other committee meetings. Our meeting went on longer than we expected today so it is not a reflection on your good selves or your presentation. I thank you for attending the meeting.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.40 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 25 February 2003.
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