Skip to main content
Normal View

JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, MARINE AND NATURAL RESOURCES debate -
Wednesday, 12 Mar 2003

Vol. 1 No. 10

Broadcasting Bill: Presentation.

I welcome Mr. James Morris, chairman and founder of TV3, Mr. Rick Hetherington, managing director and chief executive officer, and Mr. David McMunn, director of government, regulatory and legal affairs, to this meeting.

The committee is considering television broadcasting, excluding pay per view and free to air broadcasting of designated events, but including the provision of a percentage of the RTE licence fee being used for home produced programme, together with access to the RTE transmission network. In this regard it is important that we hear from TV3, which is the only independent commercial broadcaster in Ireland.

I draw attention to the fact that the members of this committee enjoy absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee.

Mr. James Morris

We thank the committee for giving us the opportunity to speak. I wish to set out a view on the future of broadcasting as the only independent television broadcaster as we move into a period when legislators will conduct a fundamental review.

I will give a brief history of TV3. During a long process of legal and commercial hurdles, the original TV consortium made up of Paul McGuinness, Ossie Kilkenny and myself kept going because we believed in TV3 and, as people who work in film, television and music, that RTE badly needed competition. TV3 went on air in September 1998, almost ten years after the original grant of the licence. The other investors involved, CanWest Global Communications and Granada, have been with us since 1998 and 2000 respectively. In them we have two broadcasters with proven track records in television that are committed to the long-term. As investors they understand the long-term nature of media operations compared with the more short-term outlook of venture capitalists.

What progress have we made? In the material provided we have listed some of our achievements. TV3 is the second most popular channel in the State despite having to compete with three State funded channels and a growing multitude of British channels according to Neilsen ratings. We created new employment, directly and indirectly, for hundreds of people and invested in infrastructural, equipment and costs to the tune of €45 million. We have triggered in completion financing more than €8 million of independent Irish production and we have a flagship morning programme, the only Irish programming on air at that time. It is number one across all channels. The evening news service is watched by half the population every week.

Most importantly, more people are now watching Irish based television than five years ago. This is the most significant achievement. We have repatriated audiences at a time when the choice from Britain has increased ten fold. We have repatriated €100 million in advertising revenue that is taxed and subject to VAT, rather than being drained off by UTV, which does not remit VAT in this state, and Sky, which does not pay taxes on subscriber revenue. That is a point Government agencies might look at, given the regular advertising on those foreign services. This leads us to the position we are now in relation to the licence fee and how it is regulated. The exact figures for RTE production are hard to come by, but we believe it to be in the region of €32,000 per hour. To put that in perspective, it is more than double the average advertising revenue for TV3 in peak hours. Yet TV3 is the second most viewed channel. The average revenue, therefore, is half the cost of production. This means that TV3 must be able to acquire quality programming from abroad that is popular and of a much lower cost than home-made programming in order to fund the making of home programming. This is because we do not have a licence fee to contribute to production.

Unfortunately, that option is now under severe threat because the Government has increased the public funding of RTE and TG4 to €200 million per annum without attaching any specific or measurable quotas for Irish and European content. TV3 is prescribed quotas for Irish and European content under the terms of its licence but RTE is not. The details of this are outlined on page 13 of the pack we have provided to the committee. The result is that there are no real restrictions on the use of public funds, and this causes grave concern for investment in TV3 and other independent services. The indiscriminate use of public funds can effectively stop TV3 from buying a programme at a normal market rate or can be used to subsidise advertising rates. We are currently preparing a Competition Authority case on this point, as the actions of RTE in the advertising market have artificially depressed the price of advertising.

This also means that in regard to programming, RTE is in a position to bid up the cost of foreign and sports programming rights beyond their economic value, be they movies, series, sports or otherwise. The Champions League matches are a good example. TV3 provided them for free to the public. Now the public must pay a higher licence fee to underwrite RTE's broadcasts of the same matches. We even have the absurd position where TG4 can and has outbid TV3 for Hollywood movies. Does that make sense? Not if one believes in a proper public interest test of the use of public funds, and if the independent sector is willing to provide the same programming for free. There are also European law considerations, as evidenced by the recently announced investigation into the use of state aid by the Danish public service broadcaster.

What are we asking for? We should start by saying what we are not asking for. TV3 has never asked for the licence fee. Neither are we opposed to the existence of the licence fee. We have supported the use of the licence fee for the production of Irish programming. We are against the use of public funds to distort competition against local competitors and against it being used to acquire rights for foreign programmes that are universally available on other channels. We want fair controls that allow TV3 to survive on advertising revenues, which, in other countries, is a sustainable business model. This, in turn, will allow TV3 to gain the revenues that allow us to increase our own Irish production and remain distinctive.

With a fair regulatory environment, we can continue, with RTE, to grow Irish audiences, make our contribution to choice and, most importantly, maintain the plurality of Irish television, which is so essential to the democratic process. Without proper controls, there is a danger of severely damaging any chance for the independent sector and, as a consequence, effectively handing over the advantage to the UK channels that are increasingly targeting the Irish market and deliberately by-passing all Irish regulation. Sky will broadcast 20 channels with specific Irish commercial breaks on air in the next six months that have previously never intervened in this marketplace.

These channels do not pay Irish tax or invest in Irish production. The Government and regulators have a responsibility because television is not an open market - it is highly regulated. The terms of regulation determine the conditions in which all broadcasters operate. We have suggested what is needed to address this. To provide the Irish public with real value for money, RTE should be required to produce and show Irish programming at peak hours. This is the only time that the vast majority of people are free to watch television and, therefore, the only time they can avail of the programming choice that should be the objective of the licence fee to provide.

To work in any way meaningful, this would entail a quota by channel of at least two to three hours in the evenings. That is less than 1,000 hours of production per annum. This approach is quite common in other countries where substantial public funding is in place. It recognises that the primary justification for charging every home in the country a licence fee is to create programmes that reflect Irish life and culture. It is the only long-term, sustainable justification in a world where all the other programmes are available on other channels, mostly for free.

This means that quotas should be introduced related to the benefit of the licence fee, just as TV3 has quotas in its contract related to the benefit of our exclusive licence. Pending the establishment of the broadcasting authority proposed in the new legislation, and in order to redress the impact of the recent unregulated licence fee increase, the BCI should have interim powers to put some form of regulation in place.

In relation to advertising generally, the current hourly limit on RTE's advertising should be strictly enforced so that it can no longer average out advertising during non-peak hours. There is a choice. Either the future of Irish-based TV is strictly publicly funded, with no indigenous private sector, or there can be a balance that will support both a successful state and independent sector, an environment of choice that would truly meet public expectations.

I have been reading your submission, Mr. Morris, and want to put a number of things to you before engaging the committee. Am I right in assuming that you applied for this licence back in the mid 1990s?

Mr. Morris

It was advertised in October 1988.

It was a commercial licence?

Mr. Morris

Yes.

So you were quite aware of what you were entering into when awarded the licence?

Mr. Morris

Absolutely. What we were applying for was a licence to operate a TV channel in a regulated market, and it was our understanding that regulations would be introduced in line with stated Government policy to bring in competition, a policy that was in line with European competition law. That has not actually happened.

There was only one licence available because there was only one spectrum. It is an analogue channel.

Mr. Morris

It is an analogue channel and there were four spectrums available. One had been reserved for TG4 and the other was for the independent programme provider, which is the licence we applied for and were awarded.

You were a very brave person at that time to go into the TV business.

Mr. Morris

I do not have time to tell you about the difficulties.

I have done some checking of your statement. You mentioned interim regulation of the licence fee. I do not believe this role could be given to the BCI without amending legislation. The amending legislation would be required to take certain responsibilities from the RTE authority and give them to the BCI. To a large degree, that is what the legislation establishing the BAI will address. It will take time to prepare, and I understand there is no quick fix to this problem. In the interim the Minister, as he pointed out in a speech here some weeks ago, will arrange for the independent evaluation of RTE's performance.

You also mentioned value from money from RTE and TG4. You argue that a majority of programmes at peak times on RTE 1, Network 2 and TG4 should be home produced. RTE's application for an increase in the licence fee was premised on increased quality programming, including home produced programming, in its peak time schedules. It is best left to RTE, however, to determine the mix of programmes that best meets its statutory mandate, and RTE's performance in this regard will also be subject to independent evaluation.

Mr. Morris

We agree that it is not the purpose of regulation to get into the genre of programming, whether it be drama, quiz shows, documentaries or news. With the level of public funding that exists, however - over €200 million - there should be a commitment to quota, that is, the number of hours. Under our licence, 25% of all the time we transmit must be devoted to home produced content. That is not in conflict with what is being said, but it was absent from the Minister's announcement previously.

I am aware of the rules regarding 25% home produced and 50% European produced content. You also mentioned Sky's incursion with new Irish-based services. This is about Sky as a broadcaster and not as the operator of a satellite platform. If there was no Sky satellite platform, Sky channels would still be available from NTL and Chorus as you will appreciate, and any channel can include Irish targeted advertising.

Mr. Morris

That is incorrect.

Let me put it on the record here and then you can dispute it. ITV already does this. All the channel need do is get a licence from its own regulator, the UK regulator in the case of Sky, for this service. Is it a fact that advertising revenue is likely to continue to be attracted out of Ireland by broadcasters not based here? Has this nothing to do with the fact that the Sky platform, which offers hundreds of channels, is not regulated in Ireland?

Mr. Morris

On a point of information, UTV does not transmit an Irish market break. It is a channel that is provided for the North and it is available in the South as a single channel. Sky has a licence to do the same for the UK, but in relation to the Irish market Sky inserts a different, and second, commercial break that is sold exclusively to the Irish market. The result of this is that Sky is able to transmit, off the same programming, two simultaneous channels and that can only be done from a satellite. NTL cannot do that because they would need a licence in this State to insert programming, that is, a commercial break, which they do not have.

Thank you for clarifying that. It is important to put these matters on the record so that when we are evaluating the whole area of broadcasting we will have a balanced view.

Another point you make in your presentation is about advertising. I am advised that RTE's advertising limits are fixed by the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources and at present RTE is allowed up to 10% of programme transmission time, that is, an average of six minutes per hour, and a maximum of 7.5 minutes in any hour to be offset by a corresponding lower amount in another hour. Then there is a balancing arrangement of up to 15 minutes across two hours to facilitate programme flow and flexibility.

The decision to increase the licence fee was taken on the understanding that RTE's advertising limits would neither be increased nor decreased. I want to advise members that the Radio and Television Act 1988 sets the limits for advertising time for independent radio and television, including TV3. The Act provides that total daily advertising shall not exceed 15% of total daily broadcasting and that is an average of nine minutes per hour with a maximum of ten minutes in any one hour. Therefore TV3 is able to advertise more than RTE. In fact, on average, TV3 is able to advertise 2.5 minutes more per hour. Is that correct?

Mr. Morris

No, it is not. What you have said is correct, but let me explain. RTE is able to transmit more than 10% in prime time, which is four hours a night. Some 80% of the total advertising revenue is generated in those four hours. If you allow RTE to exceed the 10% in those four hours by the amount it does, it effectively gets the same amount of time as TV3 at a point in the day when 80% of the revenue is available. It is a massive distortion against what was meant to be a balancing measure, as between the advertising on TV3, which has no licence, and the advertising on RTE, which carries a licence fee as well. In truth, what you described is correct but what it represents is a massive distortion.

Did you mention that you are making a complaint to the Competition Authority?

Mr. Morris

I did, but that is to do with the fact that correspondence we received through the Freedom of Information Act demonstrates that RTE discounted its advertising to such an extent last year that it will have to give a refund. This, in effect, reduced the price of advertising in the market. The cost of television advertising in the Irish market is half the price, on an absolute comparative basis, of the same in the UK. In comparison, the cost of press advertising in the Irish market is three times the price in the UK. That demonstrates what enormous potential there is for growth for revenues for all broadcasters if regulation can put order into the market.

Mr. Rick Hetherington

May I respond to some of the points?

Certainly.

Mr. Hetherington

You suggested that no regulation of RTE could effectively be put in place until such time as the BCI or the BAI or whoever did so. I suggest that is not a correct interpretation of the Act. The Act allows the Minister to impose all sorts of limitations, as he or she does in terms of the commercial advertising minutes per hour. Therefore it is well within the power of the Minister today to rule and direct RTE in terms of what it should do with the money. In fact, under European law, it is required of the Minister to be very specific.

You speak about RTE being measured under various criteria at the end of the year. Against what is it being measured? Who will be the judge of quality? What you may think is quality or what I or another member of this panel may think is quality can be very diverse and cannot be clear. As James Morris said, there should not be genre quotas. We have many genre quotas regarding news and everything else. It is unique that RTE cannot, and they have the privilege of the licence fee.

It is also significant that on the day that the former Minister in charge of RTE, Miss de Valera, announced that they would get a massive increase of 20% - with which they were not very happy, although such an increase in anything in this day and age is extraordinary - RTE immediately announced it was cutting back 200 hours of programming. It is notable that on the receipt of a virtual 40% or 50% increase in the licence fee in December they have not been able to quantify what that would represent in terms of an increase in programming. It suits them not to have quotas. Unfortunately quotas are the only measurable aspect of television at the end of the day and that is why we have them. It is not unique as this is the case throughout Europe and the world.

Austria has just licensed its first national private television network. When they went into the market place, they came and looked at Ireland and they used Ireland as an example. One of their findings was that they needed to have quotas on their state broadcaster. They also reduced the commercial minutes per hour, but at the same time they went as far as imposing genre requirements and limiting their commercial advertising revenue, recognising that if there was to be success found in the independent sector there would have to be room made for them. That is an interesting case.

As to Sky and the other channels, they have quotas as well. We would see them in some respects more compliant with European broadcasting regulation than RTE and perhaps they are more legitimate when it comes to that in terms of their existence.

I welcome the delegation. I am glad we have an opportunity to listen to the arguments they are clearly making. They stated that Government policy is not in line with EU competition law in relation to broadcasting policy. It is important that they clarify that statement and provide evidence for it.

Am I correct in saying that the key RTE competitor for TV3 is probably Network 2, particularly during prime time, and that TV3 has major concerns about the level of public service broadcasting content on Network 2 during prime time? Do they have any facts and figures to clarify those concerns to the committee?

On advertising, it is my understanding that TV3 had serious concerns at the end of last year that RTE had oversubscribed to advertisers in terms of the advertising space which it was selling and, indeed, had to refund a number of companies who were seeking advertising on RTE. Is that the case? Did they have to return funds? As far as TV3 is concerned, does that amount to anti-competitive behaviour on the part of RTE in taking on more advertising than they can fulfil? It is important to clarify the TV3 argument in that area as this has been raised at a committee meeting in the past.

I understand €7 out of each €150 licence fee is to be put into a fund of approximately €8 million in order to target independent broadcasters for public service broadcasting use. Does TV3 intend to apply for some of that funding? Is the concept of a percentage of the licence fee being used to support public service broadcasting endorsed by TV3?

I apologise on behalf of the Members who left the meeting. For the information of the delegation, they did so because there was a vote in the Seanad. It is not out of disrespect. Everything the delegation says will be on the record and will be analysed by us later.

I have three or four questions to pose, so perhaps the delegation should answer those that have already been asked.

Mr. Morris

To take competition, there is a general preclusion of State aid under competition law, specifically in terms of funding operating revenues, but there is a partial immunity for public service television broadcasting. However, it is not a complete immunity for State aid in the public service; the partial nature arises in that it is allowed if it does not interfere with commercial marketplace broadcasters.

What we are saying, the reason we have had to go both to the European Court and to start putting together a complaint under competition is that RTE can depress the price of advertising because it can rely on the licence fee to distort the market. In addition, it is paying unrealistic prices for certain selective rights - the Champions League is the best example - to acquire programming above its commercial value. In that way, RTE is affecting the marketplace.

Without giving a major legal treatise on this, State aid is proscribed in normal competitive markets but there is not a blanket immunity - it is a partial immunity. It is based on this principle that our complaint to the Competition Authority in Brussels has been accepted.

Mr. Hetherington can answer the questions on Network 2 and funding.

Mr. Hetherington

Is Network 2 the primary focus as a competitor? The answer is no. We have to compete with all channels, but it is probably the most visible concern we have in that it runs less than 25% of their prime time content from Irish sources yet they are the recipients on a pro rata basis of approximately €75 million in State funding. As a demographic, it is targeted at a more youthful market than RTE 1, as are we, but we compete with all channels.

Regarding the €8 million fund to be made up of €7 from each licence fee, in our submission to the forum on broadcasting we suggested that a portion of the licence fee be given to the BCI to create a speciality to all broadcasters operating in the Republic - ourselves, RTE and TG4 - to provide specialist services, such as hard of hearing services. Those services are very expensive and, to put it frankly, limited in Ireland. We want them to improve and we felt this would be a worthwhile area. The recommendation was not taken up by the Minister but, regarding the licence fee fund, this is the only area we identified as being of interest to us. We have never asked for part of the licence fee and I put on record again today that we contacted the Department and asked whether the money could be used in this worthwhile manner, which is also a programming attribute.

Regarding EU regulations, I have an expert in competition law beside me who can supplement our answers.

Mr. David McMunn

Deputy Coveney asked if Irish Government is in compliance with EU law. It was announced in January that the Government and those of three or four other member states are being taken to court for failure to implement a directive that should have been implemented in 2000 on transparency in public services. Translated into English, it means that any funds given to a public service organisation which competes, in any sense, with a private organisation must be provided and accounted for in a very specific way. That was meant to be implemented by June 2001, but as has not been the case the Government is being taken to court.

In the past three to four weeks, the Commission has initiated an investigation into the Danish equivalent of RTE - TV2 - on precisely the advertising point at issue in Ireland. The Commission is investigating the use of the fee, under Danish law, by the broadcaster for the possible subsidy of advertising rates, which is precisely the issue we have here. This is an issue the Commission is actively looking into.

Mr. Hetherington

With regard to the other question I did not answer relating to an over-subscription by RTE in its commercial sale of air time, we have an internal e-mail - obtained through freedom of information - in which RTE confirms that, in my words, it massively oversold its air time. This is the foundation of a competition complaint that will literally be submitted in the next few working days. We initially heard that the amount was €10 million, then we heard that it was €3 million. However, we now estimate it to be €5 million to €6 million. It is difficult to determine, but if it was €3 million it would be just under 10% of TV3s revenue. That is an extraordinary amount. Last year we lost €2.5 million, so the amount is the difference between TV3 breaking even or losing money, which is the current position.

How do you base your advertising rates?

Mr. Hetherington

Due to the fact that we are fairly small organisation, advertisers take guidance on advertising rates from RTE, which posts an advertising rate every month. The latter states what the station is going to sell its time for in any particular month. It, therefore, chooses an arbitrary price and at the end of the month it announces the actual amount for which time was sold. The purpose of this is supposedly to demand and supply.

Under the method by which RTE sells, there should never be unfulfilled air time at the end of the month and that is what we are talking about regarding over-subscription. If it was true market demand and supply, it would simply supply it at a higher price and let the price be dictated. We are led very much by RTE and if it lowers its prices, advertisers come to us. That is something which happened this week; we might have lost €2 million worth of business if reduce our price further because of action RTE took. We cannot exist in the long-term.

It is important to say that we are being choked. The advertising revenue is being choked on one side and the acquisition of programming - to fund our ability to create programming in the future - is also being choked. Our future is built on creating Irish-based programming because that is what will distinguish us from the BBC and so on. We are already at 25%, but we want to get up to 50%. We cannot do it.

That is precisely what TV3 has not done. It has not created good Irish-based programmes in a range of territories. Like other Members, I have high regard for TV3s news, current affairs and sports reporting. However, there is a tranche of programming in which TV3 has taken the easy option. It has not made original new programmes. Surely that is the reason it has not got the revenue and been able to compete head to head with RTE. Since I have taken on this portfolio for the Labour Party, every document I get from TV3 comprises a long whinge. When will it stop whinging and become a really competitive station capable of competing with RTE?

Reference was made to McCann-Fitzgerald talking about section 5 of the Competition Act and a dominant position. However, we have always had BBC1, BBC2 and UTV in this market. TV3 was asked to do a particular job and it simply has not done it. It has spent the past four and a half or five years whinging about RTE instead of creating Irish based drama - not Coronation Street - and regional programming for Munster, Connacht and our capital city of Dublin, which I represent. Is not the real problem that TV3 has failed to create Irish based and Irish made programmes that people want to watch?

Mr. Morris

I reject more or less everything the Deputy said. TV3 is the second most popular channel. The Deputy should not tell me, therefore, it is not providing something people want. Viewing is voluntary, about which there is nothing the Deputy, as a legislator, can do.

The Deputy questions the reason we cannot get money. We get a premium on our audience against RTE because the cost of advertising is low. Everything I have said makes the fundamental point that the legislators make the law and that this is not an open or free market. If the Deputy wants us to make the programmes to which he referred, there must be a fair, competitive environment, which legislators have not achieved.

Mr. Morris has taken the easy route——

Mr. Morris

Profits are not being made in spite of the figure of €50 million. Does the Deputy call that easy——

TV3 buys in.

Mr. Morris

There is not one penny of public money.

What about all the ancient programmes TV3 buys in?

Mr. Morris

Rubbish.

It is very important that representatives of TV3 are here today. We want to learn from this meeting because representatives of RTE have been invited to reattend shortly. We did not have an opportunity to have representatives from TV3 here on 27 November when the station asked to be represented because our schedule did not permit it. Our work programme had already been established.

We certainly want to hear the views of TV3. I will not stop any member asking questions and do not mind if they ask hard ones. We will be asking the very same questions of RTE and the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland based on the information we are obtaining from the delegates here today. The committee will then issue its report and recommendations which will be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. It will then be a matter for the Government to consider them.

I thank the delegation for attending. Why would RTE turn away advertising revenue at a time when it is incredibly cash-strapped? A delegate mentioned that the percentage of Irish produced programmes on Network 2 at prime time is about 20%. What is the equivalent figure for TV3 according to the same criteria?

What is TV3's view on the proposal whereby RTE and TV3 would be made available in Belfast and stations now available in Belfast would be available on the terrestrial service throughout Ireland? Is TV3 happy to see the setting up of reciprocal arrangements with regard to programming rights and agreement to have an all-Ireland service available to viewers?

What is the view of TV3 on the Minister's proposal for a free view model? I have only seen it in the press and was not able to make the meeting he attended last week. I will have to read the transcript to see what he said. Do the delegates think the proposal represents a positive way forward and a good way of developing the transmission system?

On the last point about accounting systems and profitability, the majority shareholding in the company is held by overseas television production companies. How do their accounting systems deal with revenue from TV3? Is there a separate means of dealing with accounts on a profit and loss basis for inter-company transactions?

Mr. Morris

The first question was to explain the reason RTE might be under-pricing. The mandate of RTE is to produce a public service and, essentially, work within an annual fiscal budget. The licence fee represents two thirds or half of that budget. Therefore, what is required from advertising becomes the incremental cost required to meet the budget. In other words, there is not a market-driven approach to pricing the advertising, as is the case in respect of TV3. Because RTE has two channels, it has substantial capacity, particularly at prime time when it can exceed 10%. As long as it hits a specific money target, which balances the books alongside the licence fee, its job is done. That is one of the explanations the price of advertising is not too much of a concern for RTE and not determined on a strictly commercial basis.

Mr. Hetherington

Let us not forget that RTE is dominant in the advertising market, of which it takes about 65%. Therefore, if it can increase its share of the market by dropping rates, there is nothing to restrain it from doing so, particularly because the other side of its operation is subsidised.

Our prime time figures range between about 10% and 20%, depending on the week. Throughout a year, this is about 14% or 15% on average, compared to about 20% in respect of Network 2 at prime time. However, during the day there is very little home produced programming on Network 2. We produce the number one breakfast show in the morning, which is on for three hours per day. We do all sorts of other programming in addition to this which Network 2 does not do, except for the occasional sports match. A 15 minute newscast for children has been introduced in the afternoon.

The Deputy mentioned reciprocity and the all-Ireland model. There is an agreement between the broadcasters located on the island of Ireland, including the four in the South and BBC and UTV in the North, to work towards a reciprocal carriage on an all-Ireland basis. It is a minefield of rights but we have agreed to take a stand-still approach relative to each other. However, it is a very complex area. We are in discussions with Sky Television and NTL and have contacted the free view representatives in the North to assess the matter. We are also negotiating with the AGICOA, a rights organisation.

We do not have a timeframe because the process will not only require the co-operation of the broadcasters of whom I spoke but also of all the broadcasters in the United Kingdom. We have programme, format and news rights from a variety of sources that other broadcasters use and which need to be cleared.

We were not consulted on the free view matter and it caught us by surprise. I am not sure how it would work. There are only four channels plus the three in the North - BBC1, BBC2 and UTV. I am not sure from where the other channels would come. If many other UK channels were introduced, it would exacerbate the Sky issue before us today. There is considerable work to be done in this regard without getting into the rights issues.

I will try to answer the question on inter-company transactions as I understood it. All shareholders of the various companies, including Granada and CanWest, are treated equally. Mr. Morris is a shareholder and founder. We have had no distributions and will not have for some time. We thought we would break even this year but that is now unlikely. In terms of inter-company transactions, Granada is a supplier of programming to us; CanWest is not. I should point out that we buy fewer programmes from Granada than RTE buys from the BBC.

Is TV3 a private company?

Mr. Hetherington

It is a private company owned by Mr. Morris and the other companies. The other two are publicly traded companies.

Are the company's results posted?

Mr. Hetherington

Yes, we have to file returns. We will be filing the company's results in the normal way.

You mentioned that the company lost €2.5 million.

Mr. Hetherington

Yes, in the year ending 31 August. We will be filing the returns in the course of the next 30 days.

I presume the company is making a profit or did in the past.

Mr. Hetherington

This year we had hoped to break even or make €100,000 but that is probably not going to happen now because of the predatory pricing about which we are complaining.

What percentage of TV3's programmes would be made by independent Irish producers? To return to the all-island agreement in terms of reciprocal arrangements, I take it TV3 is entering the negotiations in a positive framework in that it does want to see an all-island approach?

Mr. Hetherington

Yes, absolutely. It is important to note that TV3 was the driving force in creating a number of years ago the organisation called the Television Broadcasters of Ireland - TBIG - which meets on a regular basis. While there are differing points of view in terms of when this would occur, we have said we will agree. Once we achieve access through Sky Television in Northern Ireland, we will agree that they should be available in the South, in other words, there will be true reciprocity when both of us can execute it.

In terms of independent production in Ireland, we have a quota of €1.8 million which we have exceeded for many years. We have a financial quota, referred to on page 13, for independent productions.

There is no percentage quota.

Mr. Hetherington

No. It was negotiated as a percentage of revenue and increases by the CPI. It now stands at €1.8 million and increases each year. As a percentage of revenue, it would amount to approximately 10%.

Would revenues from the budget the Government is now allocating for independent production count in terms of TV3's content?

Mr. Hetherington

No.

Would it be separate?

Mr. Hetherington

The specifications in terms of the use of that money have not been declared to us. From briefings, we understand that it will be used for things that we, including RTE and the others which have access to it, would not normally do or be expected to do.

Mr. McMunn

On Deputy Broughan's points about Irish produced programming, on a per hour basis, we produce roughly 1,500 hours of original Irish produced programming in a calendar year. On a per channel basis, if one separates Network 2 and RTE 1, the figures are roughly between 1,600 and 1,700 hours, yet they have the benefit of the licence fee.

There are some details on the independent sector in the briefing pack. In the past 18 months to two years we have triggered approximately €8 million worth of completion finance. For any of the producers concerned to get funding, they much have a local broadcaster on board who will broadcast the programme but also contribute financially. We do this.

The last item in the briefing pack is a press release about a feature length comedy drama, an Irish production being shown in April. There is another called "Mapmaker", which will be shown in the next few weeks. Both are independent Irish productions. Big stars - Seán McGinley, Brenda Fricker and Anna Friel - appear in "Watermelon".

Mr. Hetherington

With a budget of €2 million.

The genre of domestic programming is critical. It is striking that TV3 has been in existence for about five years and that it is only now we are hearing rumours that Mr. Eamon Dunphy will go head-to-head with Mr. Pat Kenny on Friday nights. Before TV3 was established, we hoped that was precisely what would happen in critical areas on the introduction of an independent channel. In the past we have asked tough questions of RTE about a certain smugness and complacency because of its position. It is striking that it has taken TV3 five years to give us real competition in that critical area with two major talk show hosts taking each other on head-to-head. Perhaps it still will not happen. Clearly, Network 2 will not take on RTE 1 but why have we not had such competition where there is real choice? We would all agree that Mr. Dunphy is a serious and highly regarded, if at times controversial, broadcaster. Why have we not had more such broadcasting? If we had, how do we know that TV3, not RTE, would not be in the dominant position with the No. 1 chat show?

Before you answer that question, Mr. Morris, I want to let Deputy Fitzpatrick enter the debate.

I welcome the delegation. It is ironic that representatives of the commercial television sector should appear before the committee in the week that Gunnar Rugheimer was buried. He was the man who brought commercial reality to RTE many years ago. The members of the delegation look too young to remember but I was around for him. They will realise, however, that the relationship between politicians and the media, at best, is uneasy and, at worst, can be fraught. Is it not a little disingenuous to compare the transmission costs of TV3 and TG4 as they are not broadcasting to the same audience? TV3's audience would be a multiple of that of TG4. They also mentioned that one should not draw an analogy in terms of Irish advertising with Sky Television and UTV but surely they are eating from the same advertising pot? It is no coincidence that UTV is taking advertisements from companies based in the South and maintains an office in Dublin to sell advertising here.

What would TV3 say on the question of transmission facilities being ring-fenced, that a separate, stand-alone company, should be set to offer services to all the broadcasting companies? What would it say on the question of licence fee revenue also being ring-fenced and administered by an independent stand-alone company to commission Irish content programmes?

Is there room for more television companies? I read that there were about 30 or 40 digital television companies. I look at news programmes and one or two other stations now and again. Perhaps the younger generation zap from one station to another all the time and are au fait with a range of soap operas which my own family can discuss ad nauseam.

Is there an agreement between the television companies that advertisement breaks take place at the same time? If I have the zapper in my hand, the advertisements come on and I flip around, the only channel not showing advertisements is the BBC. The rest seem to break automatically on cue and at the same time. Do the gentlemen agree that TV3 is the Ryanair of the television sector?

I must confess that I am a fan of TV3. Unfortunately, my wife commands control of the remote control and all of her favourite programmes are on that channel.

Mr. Hetherington

What is wrong with Ryanair, a good Irish company with taxi plates?

A Deputy

It is making profits.

Mr. Hetherington

Yes.

Mr. Morris, do you want to answer Deputy Broughan? We will then take other questions.

Mr. Morris

The Deputy asked the reason we are only now talking about a chat show when we are four and a half years on the go. He probably does not remember the time when RTE was four years in operation but it takes time to get a television station up and running. I make no apology for saying this. The history of start-ups is a graveyard for television stations. We must be able to support ourselves financially. It is not small to say our consortium has attracted €50 million in inward investment in order to set up an alternative service. Our strategy was to make news programmes the backbone of the channel, for which we have a tremendous audience - a younger audience. There is a choice, which I would not dismiss as something small to have done within four years of start-up, given that we had to fund the entire operation ourselves. We are available, mainly through terrestrial services, to 93% of the population, of which I am very proud.

We come in with programming where we can find space. This means that it is not always prime time programming such as our breakfast programme. It is the only live Irish programme which is on for three hours in the morning and for which viewing numbers have grown enormously. It is ahead of every UK service. In some respects, I accept the argument but Members are being very unfair in criticising us for doing in four years what it took RTE 40 years to do.

Transmission costs represent a utility cost. It is like paying one's ESB or telephone bill. We are getting the same service but paying three times as much.

I do not see the invoices from RTE 1 and Network 2.

Mr. Morris

An independent utility which would provide a service for all broadcasters and charged on a transparent cost basis would be the best way to proceed.

Mr. Hetherington

Frankly, that is required by the transparency directive as an essential facility. TG4 is going after our audience, programming American movies in English at prime time and so on, and has just concluded a deal with Warner Brothers. It is supposed to be Irish.

You would have to be my age to watch some of the films it shows.

Mr. Hetherington

Recently TG4 has acquired first-run movies that have never been shown on television before as premieres from Warner Brothers.

Mr. Morris

I am trying to make a distinction between channels which can bypass regulation coming off satellite. UTV has an audience here because it is available under the broadcasting across frontiers directive which applies across Europe. We can pick it up and cable companies can retransmit it as is. Sky Television charges a UK channel in order that it can obtain double revenue from it. UTV does not do this. I accept that it is competition and always has been - other channels also take audiences - but that is the difference. We are not saying Sky Television should not do this but if it does, it should be subject to some form of regulation, just as we are if it is going to intervene.

Separating the licence fee is a radical proposal and occurs in New Zealand. The first question relates to what the licence fee is for. Is it for a service or content? I hold fundamentally that it is not for content because service is now a simple thing that is provided. As Members said, there are hundreds of digital channels into which we can all tap. The question relates to whether the licence fee is designed to produce something that would not otherwise be available, which has to be programming. Our business is to fight for content. We must fight to invest more. This could be done but, first, the licence fee should be ring-fenced for 100% content production. Who gets the revenue raised is another argument.

The synchronisation of advertising breaks occurs on RTE 1 and Network 2 but not TV3.

Mr. Hetherington

There is a fundamental reason for that. European legislation dictates the amount of time between breaks. As most programmes start at similar times, this forces us to do what Members are complaining about.

Is there room for more channels? Absolutely. Other countries with small populations such as New Zealand have successful local and regional services but, frankly, unless there is order in the marketplace, which is not the case here, there will be no additional services. The difference between us and Ryanair is that Mr. Ryanair can leave Ireland and has done so, He has hubs around the world which are not regulated apart from health, safety and workplace issues, for example, while we are regulated in everything we do. We could not launch another airline without regulation.

I do not want to advertise him too much. He has enough.

To return to the network, did TV3 enter into a ten year contractual arrangement with RTE in 1997 for transmission of the service in 1998? The alternative was to set up its own transmission company. There are three parts to this - the capital fee, the facility fee and the power charge for the recovery of power costs. Did TV3 enter into an arrangement for 12 hours transmission and were certain prices laid down? Has a certain base rate been charged from 1 August 1997? Was RTE advised by NTL (UK) on the methodology in the application to the rise in commercial tariffs? Did Imagineering Canada and Bob McCourt of UTV, in association with Alan Dick of Alan Dick and Co. (UK), advise TV3 on the technical and commercial aspects of the contract while A & L Goodbody were its legal advisers? Was the Independent Radio and Television Commission kept apprised during the whole process? In other words, TV3 entered into this contractual arrangement, whether the cost is four times more than that for anyone else.

Mr. Hetherington

For the most part, the Chairman is correct in terms of the contract. The various attributes of the service were looked at. However, underpinning all of this is the doctrine of the essential facility under European law. That is the issue. It was divided into the areas of capital and power. Interestingly, we are paying more for power than TG4——

The point I am making, with all due respect, is that you entered into a contractual agreement. You had an alternative choice——

Mr. Hetherington

Pardon me, we did not——

Mr. Morris

It was pointed out, in the terms of the licence, that we should take this route by the Government of the day. I know there was a clear official indication that this was the only viable way for us to meet our obligations in respect of a universal service——

We can put that question to the Independent Radio and Television Commission.

Mr. Morris

There was no alternative to a universal service.

It is important members understand you entered into a legal agreement. Your legal advisers——

Mr. Morris

This emerged quite recently.

You have made much of the issue of what you are paying but you entered into that contract.

Mr. Hetherington

We were given a timeline for the launching TV3 that precluded any alternative to the RTE transmission network. As we could not have built it within the timeline indicated, effectively there was no choice. Second, the issue is that TG4, which is competing directly against us, is being given a competitive advantage in not being charged for a broader and larger transmission system. We are transmitting on the same 12 transmitters; it has an additional 80.

Is TG4 not a wholly owned subsidiary of RTE?

Mr Hetherington

Yes, it might be but that does not preclude fair treatment under European law.

Were the capital costs of TG4 not underwritten by the Government?

Mr. Hetherington

We have never argued on the capital side, only on the side of ongoing costs.

Mr. McMunn

It must be made clear that under EU and Irish competition law, there is a concept known as the essential facility doctrine which brings itself to bear on transmission costs, particularly in respect of TG4. If a monopolist - nobody is arguing that RTE is - has a network, the doctrine involves charging for use of that network at transparent prices to its subsidiaries at the same cost and on the same basis that would pertain to its commercial competitors. That is exactly what RTE has put on its licence fee application under its code of fair trading practice, which we have not seen. In the correspondence we have had with it, it has made it quite clear, even after the licence fee application, that TG4 is an internal matter and that services provided for us and TG4 cannot be compared. They certainly can.

As Mr. Hetherington said, TV3 is transmitting on 12 transmitters while TG4 is transmitting on 93 or 94. On an absolute basis, our charges are three times higher than those of TG4 and, on a relative basis per site, 26 times higher.

TV3's charges are £839,000 plus VAT - capital fee - and £855,000 plus VAT - facility fee. The charge for power amounts to £107,000 plus VAT. These were negotiated in 1997 and came into effect on 1 August 1997. The charge pertaining to TG4 was €278,321 in 2002. Furthermore, there was a maintenance charge of €253,947 in 2002 to cover the cost of three additional engineers and associated costs, including transport, subsistence and test equipment. The engineers in question were recruited as a result of the increased maintenance workload.

The team has made a fair point about transmission. Does the fact that TG4 has an extra 80 transmitters mean that it has 100% coverage? What advantage does it have?

Mr. Hetherington

The 12 main transmitters which RTE, TG4 and TV3 share cover about 87% of the population. However, small population groups behind a mountain, for example, need separate transmitter sites. Since TG4's service is very much focused on the west coast, because of the language issue, it has transmitters which would not be economically viable in our case. I think that answers the Deputy's question.

Is it the case that TV3 signed a ten year agreement at a set price, although it did not have much choice, but still knew what it was getting into? Its main complaint relates to one of its competitors, TG4, getting a significantly better service for a quarter of the price. If it was treated on a par with TG4, is it the case that it would not have a complaint to make because it bought into a ten year contract and knew what it was getting into? Is it true that its problem is not that it is being overcharged for transmission fees but that it is being overcharged relative to its competitors or that its competitors are being undercharged, the net effect being that they have a competitive advantage?

Mr. Hetherington

We knew what we were getting into and did not have a choice. While I did not participate in the negotiations, I know they were not easy. They were protracted and almost resulted in our not moving forward with TV3. We are not totally satisfied with the price but the primary issue concerns fairness. The issue extends beyond TG4 to RTE 1 and Network 2 which have given themselves a competitive advantage. If they have sought advice on what is a fair charge, as suggested by the Chair, they should be applying it to all parties on a fair and transparent basis. The costs read out by the Chairman relate to 1998. There are CPI factors to be borne in mind, Costs other than capital costs increase over time.

The delegates indicated that TV3 made a loss of approximately €2.5 million last year. There are some graphs appended to their presenation which point to factors that might lead to a reduction in losses or an increased capacity to make profits. Is it the case that TV3's losses have been reducing? Based on the figures, can the delegates estimate when it will be in profit-making mode? Will it be in the next two to three years?

Mr. Hetherington

It had better be. We are about a year behind in our plan for TV3. We expected that it would be in profit a year ago but that did not happen. We had hoped we would make a small profit of €100,000 after tax but that is not likely to happen in current circumstances. I hope it will become profitable next year.

I am very interested in the spending of public moneys in the form of licence fees and the question of what percentage should go into programme making. If one looks at the BBC model, one will see that it has reached a target of 85%. The remaining 15% pertains to administration costs. It has a different model because it is solely funded by licence fees. The United Kingdom, obviously, has a much higher population. RTE will always be dual funded because of our relatively small population and licence fee revenue is relatively low in comparison with that in other European countries.

The delegates have said they would like to see 100% of the revenue raised by way of the licence fee being spent on programming. Is that realistic? RTE representatives will be attending a meeting of this committee in coming weeks when I know it will make the case that it is not realistic to expect 100% to be spent on programming. Based on their experience in the broadcasting sector, what do the delegates think is a realistic target for RTE to ensure the public will get value for money and that it will have a viable income from both advertising revenue and public funds?

I welcome the delegates from TV3. It is great that we have some competition in the market because we need it in every sector. As a television fan, I am fascinated by its power. I compliment TV3 on its weather forecasting service because no matter how bad the news is, one still feels one is getting good news. Its weather presenter is very good in this regard. If all politicians could do the same, they would be doing very well.

Did he wish the Deputy a happy birthday?

He did once. I might get him to wish the Chairman a happy birthday shortly.

Does TV3 broadcast to the 32 counties? Does it broadcast to the British Isles? Why would TV3 think that its competitors should give it transmission charges at the same price as themselves if they are directly competing against TV3 in a market?

TV3 has facilities in Cork, Galway and Belfast. Perhaps in the future it might consider putting a facility in Longford because it is an ideal location in the midlands. Was Deputy Broughan correct? Is it true that TV3 is shortly launching a new talk show with Mr. Eamon Dunphy?

Ultimately there is a political regulatory role in broadcasting and I would defend the politicians' right to support a service like TG4. I would go back to the original decision made by Deputy Michael D. Higgins to provide the capital funding and set up a current spending system which would support an Irish language station. I would be very wary of any such message getting out or of analogies being made between what I see as a valuable Irish language service and a commercial broadcasting remit. I do not have any problem with the commercial service being involved in broadcasting, but I am slightly wary when people start chipping away at a huge success story in broadcasting. We, as regulators, are entitled to support it and to provide, if necessary, lower transmission costs. We have that right to regulate the market to protect or to promote the Irish language. I would caution TV3 in terms of taking that on as a particular issue.

As a regulator, the bigger threat I see is the one TV3 identified from satellite transmitters who do not have any commitment to the country, to the Irish language, etc. Mr. Morris mentioned that they would like to see regulation of Sky introduced. I would be interested in him elaborating on that. How does one regulate satellites?

Mr. Morris

On TG4, I would not dispute a word of what Deputy Ryan said about the right to create an Irish language channel. We have raised two issues only in that regard. The first comes back to the transmission. In the sense that they regulate to finance TG4, because it is financed by direct grant, and they include the cost of transmission, we merely say on the fairness of the essential doctrine that as it is controlled by RTE as a service, the costs should be transparently given out on an even basis. If TG4's cost is the same as ours, that seems fair and not in conflict with the right to provide for TG4. That is really our only point. Otherwise we have supported TG4. We think the issue there is really underfunding on the basis that so much of TG4 prime time has to be given to English language movies, and that seems to be in conflict with the remit.

What about Deputy Kelly's question on TV3 moving from Ballymount to Longford?

Before the Chairman brings it to Cork.

Does TV3 broadcast to the 32 counties and to the British Isles?

Mr. Hetherington

If you speak to TG4 management, you will find that they are often saying that we are their best supporters because we are always asking that they be given more money so they can be what they want to be, that is, a full-time Irish language broadcaster. We would argue with the right to give them a lower rate. Under EU competition law, that is not a right of a legislator. One can give them more money but they are supposed to be charging a fair price for an essential facility.

As to 32 county broadcasting, TV3 is available - the distinction being that they may not have tuned in TV3 - over the air to about 65% of the North. In the South, TV3 is available as a terrestrial station to 92% of the Republic and, through the addition of Sky carriage, 100% of the Republic can get us. TV3 is not available in the North on Sky because we are effectively blocked. We do not hold the rights to show our programmes in the United Kingdom. Like RTE and others in the Republic, we do not hold the rights to transmit into Britain.

As to an Eamon Dunphy talk show, I will say what we have said to everybody else, which is, that there is nothing to say at this point.

What about my question about the regulation of satellites?

Mr. Morris

In terms of specific content in a service, there is a broadcasting across frontiers directive. Therefore before Sky started breaking out a commercial break, there was no issue. To the extent that advertisers would place advertisements and buy into the single service, they have always been free to do that. Once you change the commercial break, you are effectively broadcasting as opposed to re-transmitting. It seems to me that the State is entitled to apply its own broadcasting regulations to anybody who intervenes as a broadcaster. There are obviously problems.

Although I know we are not allowed to discuss it, another manifestation of that would be the football rights. Essentially we have a form of regulations for all broadcasters which apply to ourselves, TG4, RTE 1 and Network 2. The BBC, UTV and Channel 4 services are available through the broadcasting across frontiers directive. Sky has come in with a unique approach, which is to not only make channels available on the broadcasting across frontiers directive but to start to market separate advertising.

There is a case to be made and we have encouraged our regulator. We make this point and we think the Government and everybody should take this a bit more seriously and not throw up their hands and ask what it can do.

The committee may not be aware that the BBC has announced that it is withdrawing all their channels from Sky in the UK. The BBC is withdrawing because Sky is the sole provider of satellite and is insisting on charges that the BBC thinks are exorbitant. We do not know what effect that will have on Sky service here but that was announced today in the UK.

That was the next issue I wanted to raise. There is much concern within RTE as well as within TV3 that Sky is taking over. Sky is hugely competitive and has huge resources behind it for programming and so on. With that in mind, does Mr. Morris think it was a sensible decision for TV3 and RTE to decide to transmit their programmes over the Sky network? Was TV3 effectively forced into making the decision to go onto the Sky network and follow RTE? Was that a decision that TV3 was reluctant to have to take?

Mr. Morris

I agree with what the Deputy said. Time will tell whether or not it was the right thing to do. We felt that once RTE had made the decision, we had no choice but to follow.

As the spokesperson of the Labour Party, I want to ask TV3 about its staff. The extensive file of documentation which TV3 sent to the committee states that TV3 has 141 workers. In another synopsis, they mentioned 200 workers. What has been the build-up of staff to date? What are the job projections, direct or indirect, for TV3 in the Irish economy?

The RTE staff representatives accompanied the RTE delegation which came before the committee. What is the position on trade union representation among the staff of TV3? If TV3 staff came to see us what would they tell us about their hopes for TV3?

Like my colleagues, I have visited the BallyÍmount headquarters of TV3 on a few occasions. It is very badly sign-posted and quite difficult to find. I will probably never again be on the morning show, which is a good show, but it is quite difficult to find it at 6 a.m.

What does Mr. Morris think the staff would say to us? In terms of the regulatory scenario, what would they want us to do for the development of TV3?

With our lifestyle it is very difficult for us to get time to watch TV. We face late sittings and night meetings and we probably do not see enough television to make comparisons. It seems RTE's success is due to its star system, an issue which has arisen again and again. We got some figures recently and Pat Kenny seems to be paid €500,000 per year. Does TV3 work in a similar way? It has some good performers and the weatherman was mentioned. What kind of rewards are offered? I remember David McWilliams's programme impacted hugely on our little political constituency. Is there scope for developing new TV stars who are not from the RTE stable?

Does TV3 encourage union membership? Does it recognise NUJ and SIPTU affiliations?

Deputy Broughan must have been reading my mind about the recently published salaries of RTE broadcasters. Does the delegation feel they are overpaid? There are similar people at the same scale and some of the public broadcasting presenters claim they are paid by advertising revenues and not the licence fee. Obviously TV3 does not have the licence fee. I am interested in TV3's views on that before we meet RTE and TG4.

Should there continue to be a public broadcaster in Ireland or should all broadcasting be by private and commercial entities?

Mr. Morris

To answer the last question first, of course there is a place for public service broadcasting and we are trying to argue that a co-existence of the two within a regulatory environment that works is the best solution. The fact is we have repatriated audience. The total audience for home broadcast over four channels as against two over five years has gone up from an average of 49% to 55% at a time of more channels and choice. That is positive.

In terms of the star system, talent is generally the currency of the entertainment business. As for the comments on whinging, RTE sometimes treats talent as an overhead that whinges but ultimately talent is what brings in audiences and one has to pay the market rate. It should not be looked at in any other way. People who make a living on their ability to attract an audience, which contributes to the success of a channel, should get the market rate. That is our view. Rick's job is to take the opposite view.

Mr. Hetherington

I do not want to get into passing judgment on RTE salaries. Since we introduced TV3, two people joined us from TG4, Gráinne Seoighe and someone else who has since joined the BBC, but we have never recruited from RTE. Most of our staff is new to the industry and ours is very much a greenfield site for opportunity. Many of them were frustrated that they could not get into RTE, not because RTE was blocking them but because the turnover of staff was not there and it was the only place in town.

Regarding unions, we have NUJ and SIPTU employees. They have never organised nor sought to organise. There has never been an effective organisation of unions at TV3. I was asked what our staff association would say about TV3 if they were sitting here. I would not be putting words in their mouths to say they are very proud of what they do. Members have been at the station and have seen ours is a young staff with an average age of 31. Many of them had never worked in television. They are proud of what they have done with our news, for example - a quarter of people watching television watch our news at 5.30 p.m. and half of the morning audience watches TV3.

There is a mood of anger there at present because of the way in which the licence fee has been awarded. Most of our employees work on news and our breakfast programmes as most of our other programming is outsourced. They are very cognisant of politics and economics and they are angry and concerned - they know the company is limited because an unregulated mass of funds is being used indiscriminately to affect advertising prices and to restrict access to programming.

They are very proud of what they do. We have a very good work force with a low turnover of staff. Many staff members return to work for us.

Mr. Morris

We have a permanent staff, but increasingly our staff are freelance as apart from news, our growing number of programmes is produced independently. Making programmes is always labour intensive.

You do not discourage individual union membership.

Mr. Hetherington

Of course not.

I wish to return to the relationship between TV and sport, not particularly TV3. Rugby, which is the GAA of Wales, is undergoing restructuring due to the malign influence of TV on the game. Also, association football in England has been reduced to a dozen very wealthy clubs while lower clubs have been pauperised by the effects of satellite television. The same is happening all over Europe, with major Italian and German clubs being almost bankrupt. What are the delegation's views on the relationship between television and sport in general?

Mr. Morris

There is legislation which deals with major sporting events by what is sometimes called anti-siphoning, which makes sure there is large availability of major events on free-to-air television.

There are two sides to this. Television coverage has done a huge amount for the popularity of sport and this has to be reviewed on an ongoing basis. Sports associations have benefited in many ways from television income but different sports organisations deal with this in different ways. The subject of sport and television is here to stay but generally television has been beneficial for sport in making people aware of sports, particularly non-mainstream sports, and that popularity is evident among viewers. Other factors have arisen which were not anticipated and we have to react to those as they occur. People want to see sports and they particularly want to see national sports available on national television. That is how it has happened in Europe and elsewhere.

Last Thursday we designated——

What about pay per view?

Are the delegates happy about the free to view designations?

We have agreed not to deal with this matter because there are legal implications. I am advised that we should not speak about it.

Maybe it could be discussed in broad terms.

We should wait until the Bill comes before the select committee.

We designated them under the 1999 legislation. The Dáil passed the list.

We have passed the list but have not dealt with the legislation that will establish the legal framework. Are the delegates happy that they will be allowed compete?

Deputy Coveney will recall that we have not included this matter in our work programme. He is aware that rights of sports organisations are involved, and it would be prudent of the committee to discuss this in private session and return to it at a later stage. I am advised that this is the best course of action.

I do not see why there is such concern.

We should not show that the committee is afraid of Sky Television or Mr. Murdoch's empire. We should be fearless in dealing with all these broadcasting——

Deputy Broughan should note that there is no one more fearless than me. Perhaps he will take advice on the matter during private session.

I have two questions that demonstrate that I watch TV3. What has happened to the "Week in Review" programme that was broadcast on Sunday nights and the "20/20" flagship current affairs programme? Will the latter programme return to our screens? It was very good and dealt with both Irish and US matters.

What are the views of TV3 on digital television and broadband access? We have an ICT committee sitting in respect of these matters. Does TV3 intend to go digital and does it intend to use the broadband network being set up by the ESB and the MANs around the country? I know it is probably using the NTL and Chorus network, which is broadband to a certain extent. I think it uses co-axial cable.

TV3 has made submissions to the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland for possible additional channels. Would it consider political coverage or taking feed from institutions or the Houses of the Oireachtas?

Will TV3 be moving out of its current premises? I find it very difficult to get to and it is "ungreen" in that context. There are no public transport connections and it is on the edge of a hard shoulder. People travelling there, whether they have a car or not, get caught up on the M50. If TV3 moved to the city centre, all its creative people could get to work more easily.

Mr. Morris

We have been expecting the problem to be solved for some time as the Luas line will be about 300 yards from the premises.

Mr. Hetherington

The nearest station will be a little further than that.

Mr. Morris

We will also examine the issue of signs but we are not allowed to erect large signs near the motorway.

Mr. Hetherington

"Week in Review" is running a little later because of some programming that is interfering with it, but it is being broadcast on a regular basis. I would have to check the time at which it is broadcast, but it is at approximately 11.30 p.m. or midnight because of the programming schedule.

I am in bed at that time.

Mr. Hetherington

VCR technology might help the Chairman.

We did not continue "20/20" so we would be able to fund "Agenda", which has received great critical acclaim in the past two years. We value this show. One week ago we launched a new series of documentaries called "Matters of Fact". It replaces "20/20" in terms of documentary stream.

TV3 has a digital plant which was the most modern in the world on the day it was launched. Everything is digital except the news cameras, which just require a software upgrade. We are ready for widescreen broadcasting and we have looked to the future in terms of the 16:9 aspect ratio. We are actively investigating digital broadcasting and the streaming of other parallel services, such as red button technology.

Broadband is not directly related to our business. It is a transmission method that, generally speaking, is not compatible with television. It is not used for wide-area distribution but from point to point. We use broadband for connecting our offices in Galway and Cork to our plant in Ballymount. However, the policy of feeding television into broadband does not meet the universality test.

We are now available through satellite, MMDS, cable, over-the-air digital and over-the-air analogue. We will be available through a variety of services and broadband will be just one slice of the delivery pie. We had conversations two years ago with Tom Dwan in the broadcasting unit on the possibility of transmitting a political channel. This would be for a fee unless we could arrange for some sort of subscription revenue. There is room for this service. We would have to consider what we would do when the Houses of the Oireachtas are not sitting, although I know there are committees sitting. We are interested in the idea and we have the technology and expertise. It should be put out to tender to see what interest there is and broadcasters and other service providers should be consulted to see how it might operate.

We have said that a number of things will have to be established for us to consider launching new channels. We would like to launch new channels, take advantage of the infrastructure and expertise and give people more opportunities. However, bearing in mind the role of RTE and the private sector, one must ask if there will be room for new services. Will they be funded through subscription revenue or advertising? In terms of the availability of programmes, I do not believe that new channels can survive on advertising income alone in Ireland without regulation.

The BCI has been charged under the recent Broadcasting Act to review some aspects of regulation, such as hard-of-hearing services and children's advertising. It has raised many questions about the future of broadcasting regulation in Ireland. Once these questions are answered people like us will be in a better position to decide whether to risk launching new channels.

What percentage of TV3's programming has subtitles for those whose hearing is impaired or the deaf? What precentage of your programming provides this facility and in particular is the news programming subtitled for people who wish to avail of that service?

Mr. Hetherington

We subtitle approximately 10% and we are trying to ramp that up each year. In many cases the cost of subtitling is greater than the cost of acquiring the programme but we are looking for solutions. We had discussions recently with the BCI because it is running some training programmes.

I appreciate that the cost would be very high for programming that TV3 is buying in but Mr. Hetherington said the news service and the morning show form the cornerstone of the station's service. In other words those are the programmes created by TV3. I would like to see subtitles in particular for the news and weather because that is crucial information as opposed to the lighter material, such as films from the US.

Mr. Hetherington

We agree totally and that is something we aspire to but the concern for us is how to deliver it.

It is a very serious concern for many individuals. I am surprised that given TV3's international connections there are not very strict criteria in places like Canada or the UK in regard to percentage of programming that is already subtitled. Is it not possible to purchase a higher subtitled content? Or is that 10% content typical of the industry in Canada or the UK?

Mr. Hetherington

I do not know what the percentages are in each territory but in Canada where this is a fairly mature industry for the private sector it would certainly be higher than 10%.

The problem we have is the technology. In North America broadcasters use a version called NTSE of which members may have heard. It is a technically different broadcasting configuration from what we have here. The rest of the world uses PAL. The subtitling is much easier and is integrated into the programme in North America. However, it is incompatible with the PAL system that we operate. We have to take every programme we buy or produce and literally start from scratch. There is no option. We try and acquire it from broadcasters in other territories, chiefly England where a limited amount of programming, albeit more than 10%, is provided for on that basis but it is not part of the programme when you buy it. It has to be sought after separately.

Is digital programming overcoming that?

Mr. Hetherington

No because it is still broadcast in a different configuration in digital.

If Mr. Hetherington would like some information on video Internet broadcasting we saw a very interesting project in Grand County in Washington State in January. The video is broadcast over the net and the picture is very pure and clear. If you need information on that we can certainly give it to you.

Could you please send on the other items mentioned to the committee? If there are any items which you have not included today or any matters you wish to clarify further please feel free to write to the committee because it could be very helpful to us when we are talking to TG4, RTE and the BCI. For clarification could you send us please the total number of broadcast hours for home produced programming, other than news, current affairs and sport, and indicate how many of those hours are at peak time?

I thank Mr. Morris, Mr. Hetherington and Mr. McMunn of TV3 for their presentation. I am sure members found it very informative and it will help us in our work. Thank you for taking the time to come in and talk to us. We deeply appreciate it and we wish you luck and every success with your station.

Mr. Morris

Thank you very much.

I have some remarks to address to the members before we adjourn. The scrutiny of COM/0672 has been deferred, as previously advised, due to a rescheduled meeting between the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Mr. Dermot Ahern, and Commissioner Franz Fischler. However, the sub-committee on the scrutiny of EU legislation has recommended further scrutiny of COM/ 2002/ 0739, a proposal for council regulation on the management of fishing effort relating to certain communities, fishing areas and resources and modifying regulation. Is it agreed that this proposal, together with COM/0672, which is related to it, be given further scrutiny?

Is there any other business?

You might have noticed today in The Irish Times the distinguished marine correspondent Lorna Siggins raised the problem of coastal zone management, specifically in relation to Bantry Bay. I do not know whether Deputy O’Donovan who represents the constituency or my party colleague from the same area, Senator Michael McCarthy, are in the Houses today.

The people in Bantry sent circulars to all of us about a two year project involving local interests, aquaculture, fishing in Castletownbere, sailing and related sports, and so on all the way up the bay. It was an EU sponsored project, the Bantry Bay Charter, and it appears to have been very successful. It seemed in part to fall under the remit of the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Eamon Ó Cuív. The Chairman may have noticed this morning that I asked the Taoiseach if he would discuss this with Deputies Ahern and Ó Cuív.

As it is within our portfolio I wonder if the committee might, through its very efficient staff, contact Deputy Dermot Ahern to ask if something can be done to extend the scheme. Deputy Eamon Ryan's party colleague, Deputy Sargent has been raising the coastal zone issue for about the last five years but coastal zone management will not be in place until 2005. We could alert the Government to what is happening in this regard. The Bantry Bay Charter is a good pilot scheme and it would be of great interest in Dublin Bay and Baldoyle Bay. The committee should support this very interesting local effort and do anything it can to encourage the Ministers concerned to ensure the project goes on because it could be a template for all the other famous bays around Ireland. People from Lough Swilly and various other important bays and inlets around the country have contacted us. Maybe we should try to focus Deputy Ahern's mind on this and then we might get some action on it.

Is it agreed that the Deputy will communicate with the clerk on this matter? The clerk will make any necessary contact with the Department and then perhaps we would decide on the next step. As you know we are busy right up to Easter. Unless the members decide otherwise we could deal with it immediately after Easter even though that will be the natural resources segment of our business. We do not start the fisheries segment until October. We could deal with it immediately after Easter depending on how important the Deputy and other members feel it is. I ask the Deputy to communicate with the clerk so we can slot it in after Easter.

The next meeting of the select committee will be on 26 March 2003 and will consider the Fisheries Bill, and the sub-committee will meet on 25 March.

What is the latest date by which we must table amendments?

I am advised that the deadline for the Fisheries Bill is 11 o'clock on 25 March.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.30 p.m. sine die.
Top
Share