I welcome the Gortmore Environmental Action Group. I apologise for the absence of the Chairman, who is out sick but who hopes to be back for our next meeting on 20 April. The format will be a presentation from the delegation, followed by a question and answer session. Perhaps Mr. Leamy would introduce the members of the delegation.
Gortmore Environmental Action Group: Presentation.
Mr. Michael Leamy
I am accompanied by Ms Ailish Maher, Ms Fiona Leamy, Mr. Michael Gleeson and Mr. Richard O'Brien.
I wish to conclude the Gortmore presentation and question and answer session by 3.30 p.m., and then we will have the Commission for Energy Regulation.
I draw everyone's attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege, but that same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. It is generally accepted that witnesses would have qualified privilege, but the committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Furthermore, members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or official in such a manner as to make him or her identifiable.
The committee has visited the Silvermines already so we know what the main complaints are about. I also thank Senator O'Meara for ensuring the delegation met the committee today.
Mr. Leamy
I echo the acknowledgement of Senator O'Meara for all she has done for us and I will go through our submission.
We, the members of the Gortmore Environmental Action Group, thank the committee for agreeing to hear us on our ongoing difficulties in making our environment safe for ourselves and our children. For myself and my wife Fiona, living and farming beside the tailings pond means our health and that of our children has been affected. Our three sons, six, four and two years of age, all have asthma, even though there is no history of asthma in our family. Monitors placed around the tailings pond show that safe air levels of lead, cadmium, arsenic and so on are exceeded all the time. Our community has battled for 20 years to make our environment safe. We ask for your continued support in ensuring that whatever plan is agreed on to deal with the problem, it is agreed with the local community.
Our community has suffered for over 20 years and any plan should have our support. We feel very strongly that not only should we be consulted on any such plan but that it should not go ahead without our agreement. We ask for the support of the committee in ensuring this happens by making sure that the Department, which answers to the committee, works in partnership with the community. That means keeping us informed of developments and giving us a seat at any forum convened to examine proposals for rehabilitation.
We ask members of the committee to consider that Mogul of Ireland should not have the capacity to carry out the work necessary to rehabilitate these mine sites, either financially or technically. We ask members to consider Mogul's record in Silvermines. As in 1984, Mogul has been slow to respond to calls to live up to its responsibility to the community of Silvermines. Put simply, we do not trust this company to do what is required to make our environment safe.
Mogul made millions in Silvermines at a time when the economy of the country was on its knees. The people of Silvermines made many sacrifices so that the country could gain from the Mogul mineworks. We feel we have paid a very high price for that sacrifice. We also feel that Mogul, having made huge profits in Silvermines, owes the community more than a plan which must be self-financing, and so does the State. We put it to this committee and the Department that we should not have to depend on some self-financing plan to have our environment made safe.
We ask the State to take on the rehabilitation or give it to some reputable and accountable agency to carry out, and pursue Mogul for compensation separately. Who will take final responsibility to clean up our environment? What will happen if Mogul cannot do so? Could the rehabilitation plan be funded from the environmental fund or by the Department itself? At what point will the State exercise its duty to the community in which we live? Are the lives of those living in the community less valuable than keeping the multinationals happy? How much longer must we wait before a plan is agreed?
Members will be aware that the environmental problems faced by the community of the Silvermines area result from the failure of Mogul of Ireland to rehabilitate a number of old mine sites which were abandoned in 1982 when mining ceased. The tailings pond is the biggest and most public manifestation of the problem. A number of reports have been written by different agencies making recommendations to rehabilitate the mine sites in Silvermines. In December 1999, the EPA reported that the tailings pond represented a perpetual risk to human health and the environment. This followed the encroachment on to the tailings pond of sheep owned by a farmer who had purchased the tailings pond from Mogul on the expiry of its lease.
Around the same time, 40 tonnes of material was removed from the tailings pond by Mogul, using heavy machinery which seriously damaged the surface. This happened without a licence or any public permit. We are aware that this incident was the subject of an internal investigation by the EPA. The material was removed, we understand for research purposes, and taken to Sligo. We have reason to believe this encroachment may have led to some of the more extensive erosion of the protective cover on the tailings, but we have had no satisfactory response on this matter from any agency.
In terms of information which is in the public domain, in 2000 an interagency group made 39 recommendations for the management of lead in the Silvermines area. To date, 36 of the 39 recommendations have been implemented, with a huge amount of sacrifice and help from the local community. The last recommendation was that clause K of the mining lease be used to ensure that Mogul of Ireland live up to its responsibilities to the community and agree a plan with the Department and the community for the rehabilitation of former mine sites in the area.
It should be noted that, under clause K, the company is required to conduct a one-off rehabilitation of the sites. An implementation group set up to carry out those recommendations constantly emphasised the need to ensure that the local community should not just be consulted but should agree to any proposals brought forward.
In April 2000, consultants SRK, commissioned by the Department of the Marine and Natural Resources, published a comprehensive expert study and recommendations for the rehabilitation of the mine sites, including the tailings. Almost two years later, Mogul brought forward proposals which the community rejects. These proposals are based on a plan to use sewage sludge, spent grains and waste from the timber industry as a growing medium on the surface of the tailings. We in the community see these proposals as an attempt by Mogul to use the tailings pond as a commercial dump by getting agreement to spread sewage sludge on the surface. It is an insult after an injury by Mogul to come forward with a commercial proposal which would make our environmental problems worse. Not only was this recommendation not made in the SRK report, it has also been rejected as inadequate by the Office of Environmental Enforcement in a letter to the Department which is attached to our submission.
We ask the committee to note in particular the comment by the Office of Environmental Enforcement that sewage sludge and spent grains are not a soil structure and, therefore, would not be suitable as a long-term solution. This was tried in 1985 with cattle and pig slurry and it has not been successful.
We also ask the committee to note the final comment by the Office of Environmental Enforcement that the community must have a full participatory role in any plan drawn up by the Department. The final report of the implementation group stated this also. The community of Gortmore has, with the assistance of environmental consultant, Jack O'Sullivan, drawn up its own proposal for the rehabilitation of the tailings pond. We are submitting the proposal to the committee for its consideration.
The community's plan uses the main recommendations of the SRK report 2000 to propose that the tailings be covered, the cover made up of a break of limestone gravel, an impermeable layer and a growth medium on top, which would be adequate to provide long-term sustainable vegetative growth. We would like to see clay used as there is a lot of soil available in the local area. Those members who saw the bare areas of the tailings pond and the erosion of the existing cover know that in some areas the level of toxicity is such that it would be necessary to have a barrier between the tailings and the cover, such as crushed limestone and an impermeable layer.
Unfortunately, since we met in January, we have concerns that we are not being included in the process being led by the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources to expedite clause K of the mining lease to come up with a rehabilitation plan for the tailings and other sites in Silvermines. While we have now been invited to meet the Department and Mogul, we believe this invitation has only been extended due to pressure, including media pressure, which we ourselves have exerted. This exclusion from the process dates from before the committee's visit in January. We have learnt that the Department had information from the company on their plans for months before we were told. There has been no transparency in the process for months now.
We, the community living in the area, have a right to be included as equal partners in this process. Unfortunately, there is a perception in the community that the Department is anxious to tie up a deal with Mogul as the quickest way out of the problem and that Mogul would be very happy to go along with it as an easy way out of its responsibility, and in a way which would be self-financing for it.
The community had a representative on the inter-agency group on the presence and influence of lead in the Silvermines area, which was chaired by the Department of Agriculture and Food, and on the implementation group which was led by the Environmental Protection Agency. However, meetings have been held, discussions have taken place and plans have been drawn up in recent months which have not included this community. We hope this will change and that the level of trust necessary to achieve an agreed solution can be established. We feel decisions are being made over our heads which will affect us and our children for the rest of our lives and we feel we are entitled to a place at the table.
We are asking the committee to ensure that the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, which is leading the process, takes the community on board as an equal partner in the process. We ask that the community's plan be given serious consideration by all parties concerned, including the committee. We ask that a plan to carry out testing for the use of sewage sludge and spent grains on the surface of the tailings should not go ahead. There is an application for a waste permit currently with North Tipperary County Council for such tests and we ask that the Department be asked to instruct the council not to go ahead with these plans. This is also recommended by the EPA.
We ask that documents being submitted, especially by Mogul, be circulated to us automatically. We ask that no plans or proposals be discussed in secret. We ask that the Department come before this committee and account for its actions and the process currently under way. We ask that this take place in public soon and that we should be present.
We thank the members of the committee for giving their time to this matter and we will answer any questions they might have. I thank the members of the committee who visited County Tipperary in January.
The Environmental Protection Agency has expressed reservations about the use of sludge and black spent grains, which I presume come from breweries such as Guinness. On our visit we noticed that there was no bonding with the grass. That may be part of the problem.
I am interested to know if this is Mogul's final proposal. The EPA rubbished it in its analysis. The concern of the action group is that the Mogul proposal will merely compound the problem. The EPA says the proposal does not provide the soil structures required for achieving long-term maintenance of a vegetative cover on the surface. The leaching away of the vegetation cover has been the problem.
Mr. Leamy
There is not further proposal from Mogul. Local builders have made it known that soil is freely available if there is the will to take it. They would gladly dump soil inside the gates but they do not have the machinery to put it on top of the tailings pond. A layer must be placed between the soil and the tailings pond to stop the acidity killing the roots of whatever grows on top of it.
Do you question Mogul's interest in rehabilitating that site?
Mr. Leamy
Mogul sees this as a commercial opportunity. It costs €160 per tonne to get rid of sewage sludge in the north Tipperary area. The company which disposes of the sewage is the same one which dumps sludge on top of the tailings pond. It is purely a commercial opportunity.
I welcome the members of the delegation from the Silvermines area. This is a significant day for the joint Oireachtas committee and for the ongoing campaign to rehabilitate the environment of the Silvermines area.
This problem is more than 20 years old. Much has happened in the last number of years. Reports have been written and State agencies such as the EPA, the Departments of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources and Agriculture and Food, Teagasc, the North Tipperary County Council and the community have been involved. However, decisions must now be taken as to who will carry out the rehabilitation, particularly of the tailings pond.
The EPA response to the Mogul proposal, which members have received, is a critical document. The EPA has raised serious questions about the proposal which lines up closely with the community's own concern. The Mogul proposal is not a long-term plan for the sustainable rehabilitation of the tailings pond. Clause K of the mining lease, the legal instrument being used to require Mogul to carry out this work, can only work in a one-off situation. Whatever plan is drawn up with Mogul must have a long-term viability.
I echo the sentiments of the Gortmore group regarding Mogul's intentions for rehabilitation. In the 1980s the company had to be forced to live up to its responsibilities and it has not acted quickly on this issue. The time has come to ask whether Mogul is the most suitable company to take on this rehabilitation. The committee must ask the Department to say whether or not Mogul is capable, financially or technically, of carrying out this work, while not allowing the company to walk away from its responsibility to the community and the State. The Department has a major role in ensuring that the task of rehabilitation is taken on by an agency which can do so in a sustainable and long-term fashion. The Department must be asked if it would be possible, legally and financially, to go ahead with the rehabilitation without Mogul and to recoup the costs from the company.
I ask that this be undertaken as soon as possible. We are coming to a crunch point. Whatever plan is undertaken will require an IPC licence, may require planning permission and would be an extensive piece of work. It will require time and the community has waited long enough.
The involvement of the community is crucial and was referred to by the EPA at the end of its letter. The community should be an equal partner in the process. That is not the case at present. It would not require much to make sure that happens. A recent meeting in Nenagh did not include the community, although they asked to be involved. The EPA recommends that the Silvermines community should have "an active and full participatory role in the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources project to manage and remediate the Silvermines area". The community is able and willing to do that. It is essential that this should happen.
Thank you for affording me the opportunity to address the committee and to welcome my neighbours from the Silvermines and Shallee area. The rehabilitation of the mining waste area of the Silvermines is a pressing issue. I have been vocal in the past and will continue to be so until a long-term solution to this ongoing problem is found.
The environmental action group recently lodged a proposal with the county council and with the Department. I lodged the same proposal with our chairman, Deputy O'Flynn, who is absent today due to illness, and with the Minister of State at the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Browne. I have discussed the matter with the Minister for State.
The proposal to deposit sludge on the tailings pond at Silvermines is not acceptable to the local community, who have made their opposition clear. They have researched the issue and have visited an area in County Kilkenny where this type of sludge has been deposited and have found it unsatisfactory. Following their research, the community are confident that Mogul's proposal will not be satisfactory. Bonding between the top layer of the tailings pond and the sludge to be deposited will not be successful. I have made this clear to the Minister of State.
The local environmental group proposes the deposition of either crushed limestone or clay, which will be available with the preparation of new roads in the area. This is not an unreasonable request and must be seriously considered. I believe the Department is open to this proposal. I hope this committee will be forward thinking and will support the proposal to use either crushed limestone or clay to cover the surface of the tailings pond area and the side banks, which are exposed at present.
The Department issued an invitation to the community group recently. However, due to distractions such as the proposed motorway at the N7, it had to be postponed. Perhaps Mr. Leamy, the chairman of the committee, will confirm this.
Mr. Leamy
That is correct. It was postponed because three of our committee were involved in the oral hearings for the motorway. However, the oral hearings are over today and Ms Maher will contact the Department of Communications, the Marine and Natural Resources tomorrow to arrange a meeting, perhaps for next week. We hope to meet before the schools reopen.
It is important that open dialogue is established with the local community group, the Department, Mogul and the local county council. The role of the community is central. These people live there daily and they want to remain living in a safe environment. It is only right that every opportunity should be given to them and that they should be seen as established partners in the ongoing process of the rehabilitation of the area.
Has Mr. Leamy any observations to make on what our two previous speakers have said?
Mr. Leamy
We are very familiar with what has been said. Senator O'Meara and Deputy Hoctor have given us much support on this issue. Deputy Hoctor has summed up the feelings of the people in the local area and what she said covers what we feel. We want to see soil laid on the area. My father was involved when this started in 1984-85 but the only result then was the covering of the area with animal manure - pig and cattle slurry. Now 20 years later I am still fighting on the issue. We have better things to be doing and do not want to be here in another 20 years still arguing about the issue because the job was not done properly in 2004 or 2005. We need to have the problem sorted out once and for all. That is all we want. We are not unreasonable.
Our proposal is reasonable - we want a clean environment. Everybody sitting here is entitled to clean air and water and that is all we want. Surely it is not too much to ask.
I missed the visit the committee made in January to Gortmore. I sympathise with the group and welcome it here. According to Mr. Leamy, the EPA reported that the tailings pond represented a perpetual risk to the environment and went on to say that 40 tonnes of material was removed from the pond using heavy machinery. Will he expand a little on that?
Mr. Leamy
Mogul Ireland removed 40 tonnes for research work to be carried out in Sligo IT. The research was for the new Lisheen mines in south County Tipperary which wanted to know what would grow on mine tailings. When the 40 tonnes were being removed the digger was almost lost when it was sucked into the tailings pond. More heavy machinery had to be brought in to pull it out, which was a huge job and caused much damage to the area. Much of the surface of the pond was disturbed and opened to the air. Many of our problems have arisen since 1999 when this happened. We feel that bringing in this machine did not help matters.
Mr. Leamy said his father was involved in this matter in 1984 and 1985 and that the issue has continued to be a problem since then. Does he feel the Department could have done more in the intervening years?
Mr. Leamy
Nobody took any responsibility with regard to this matter until 1999 when the inter-agency group became involved. That group was set up because of animal deaths in the area adjacent to the tailings pond. If the animals are being poisoned, then surely humans are also being poisoned. Lead, arsenic and cadmium poisoning can take 20 years to manifest in humans but it affects animals straight away. We have had animals poisoned every year. An extensive study was carried out on all the farms within a radius of four miles of the tailings pond and much lead showed up in the animals' blood.
However, it is the human health aspect that worries us. Two of our three children are now on a nebuliser and the third is on two inhalers. Two of the children are also on antibiotics. Perhaps my wife will elaborate on the health of our children.
Ms Fiona Leamy
I have 19 years' experience in an acute medical setting. People might say that a tailings pond has no connection with asthma. I am not saying it has, but the problems of anybody with a respiratory or cardiac condition will be exacerbated by dust, as any human being knows. There is a high incidence of asthma in the locality as well as a high incidence of other diseases. However, we have no record stating what causes these conditions.
At a recent meeting a medical representative said a study would be carried out because the county showed an incidence of diseases and illnesses which would be abnormal in other counties. l asked if we could see the statistics for the area around the tailings pond because it is a huge concern for us.
I am a busy mother and the only reason I am here is because of concern for the health of our children. As my husband said, cadmium is carcinogenic. It is also, like lead, accumulative in the system and can build up in one's system and cause renal or liver failure. The only reason we are here is concern for our children, and not for any other benefit.
Since 1999 the community committee has probably had highs and lows. Does it feel that the Department is doing more for it now than in the past? People who have been on a committee or in action groups sometimes think they have the issue cracked and that the problem will be solved. Has this happened?
Mr. Leamy
The perception in the local area is that the Department and the county council are siding with Mogul and that they are trying to push through Mogul's plan. When Landfeeds submitted an application for a waste permit to spread organic waste on the tailings to North Tipperary County Council last January, we lodged submissions against it. One cannot lodge objections to a waste permit but can lodge submissions stating why one does not agree with it. We began in the area around the tailings pond and got 5,000 signatures in three days from people who do not want this to go ahead. It is an easy way out for Mogul if the Landfeeds application is granted and it can come in and dump muck on the tailings pond. This is not a solution. It has been tried before but is not a final answer.
We want the problem sorted out once and for all. In 1984 and 1985 they dumped muck on the tailings and told us our problems would be solved. However, 20 years later we are trying to fight this because our problems were not solved. Mogul does not have a good history in the area and has shown no respect for the people living in the community. The Department too has shown no respect by excluding the community from discussions and not taking on board the people's fears.
When we saw the pond in January the weather was wet and miserable and it was seen at its worse. However, I believe the fine summers are to be dreaded also.
Ms Leamy
Yes, the dust rises then and one is constantly cleaning it from one's windows.
Mr. Leamy
April and May seem to be the worst time of the year. We get harsh dry days in April which dry out the pond and the dust then travels everywhere.
It was good that we went down in January since we know what the delegation is talking about and can recognise the areas we are discussing on the map. It is remarkable that the solution being proposed by Mogul is a commercial venture rather than a solution. This is a disgrace and an insult to the local people. Shame on the local council and the Department if they are backing that proposal. It is time, after 20 years, that this problem was properly sorted out. If there was dust carrying carcinogenic cadmium, arsenic and lead down Kildare Street on a daily basis for the past 20 years, it would be solved in two weeks and not 20 years. It is almost symbolic of the way we treat our environment and the lack of care and concern we have for its protection. We are atrocious in many different areas. We breach many European directives. We seem to put economic development ahead of environmental protection which ultimately provides a social protection. It is an incredible example of disregard for the protection of our environment and of the local community and the delegation is to be commended in its work.
It is a disgrace that this has lasted for 20 years. We obviously do not have a hold on the company because if we did, this would have been through the courts 18 years ago and the matter would have been solved. On that basis it seems to me that we have to look to Government action.
On the question of heavy machinery on the tailings, if this preferred solution is the spreading of soil which hopefully will have a layer underneath to protect it from acidic materials coming up and destroying that as well, has the delegation investigated how that might be done technically, given that it must be very difficult to put any machinery on that tailings pond? Is there any broad indication from consultants or others as to the likely cost so that the Department, the Government and this committee can start putting figures on the likely cost? If that is a cost for the State, then so be it but we cannot continue to ignore this issue.
Mr. Leamy
SRK stated that the total cost was €5.5 million to rehabilitate the whole area. The excavator which went in weighed over 20 tonnes. They started digging on top of the tailings pond. It was not suitable for the job being done. Machinery is used in bogs every day of the week to carry loads across them. I am sure some of that machinery could be used to carry material across the tailings pond. There is low ground pressure machinery available which would not cause a problem. One should not use machines weighing 20 tonnes on a site such as that.
Is it possible to put in smaller diggers?
Mr. Leamy
Yes.
What sort of layer is there between the soil and the existing cover?
Mr. Leamy
It is listed in the SRK report which was commissioned by the Department. The EPA has stated a study should be carried out of the surface of the tailings pond by people in that field to examine what is needed in different areas. Some areas are more acidic than others. In some places one might get away with no barrier and in other places what is needed is a rubber barrier to stop the acid rising. In some places, crushed stone as well as a rubber barrier will be required. It needs to be investigated and the EPA has stated that.
I have one final question. The delegation has stated a cost of approximately €5 million. Is there any indication of the revenue accrued to the State from the mine in terms of royalties or taxes over the years——
Mr. Leamy
We have no idea.
——or the revenue taken by the mining company from the works there?
Mr. Leamy
We have no idea but I estimate that it ran into billions. The State owned 52% of the mining rights.
Do you estimate the revenue would have run into billions over the years of operation of the mine?
Mr. Leamy
I am sure it would have run into billions. It was the biggest and richest lead and zinc mine in the world at the time. The ore that came from that mine was so rich that the machinery was not able to strip down all the ore in the material. Much of the ore went down into the tailings pond because the machinery was not good enough to separate such rich ore.
I am familiar with it. It was exported out of Foynes where I come from. It was a very lucrative venture from the point of view of Mogul.
I welcome the delegation. This is a 20-year saga which is a long time. Following all the talking and reporting it is perhaps time for action. I support my colleagues and in particular I support Deputy Hoctor, a new Deputy. In my opinion the key to the successful solution would be to take advice and work with Deputy Hoctor. I believe that Mogul is responsible and it should accept its responsibility. It should not be allowed off the hook on this matter. I ask the committee and the Chairman to appeal to the Canadian Government to use its influence to try to make this major global company liable. Mogul is financially viable and it has a bucket of money. I do not see why such a large multinational, international, financially secure company should be able to come to Ireland and then leave with all its millions. It is a sad reflection on Canada and I am sure the Canadians who are decent, honest people would not like to see their name tarnished in this manner. It is a savage attack on our environment and it has caused damage to people.
I understand there is a serious move afoot to resolve the situation even though it is regrettable that it has taken 20 years. This should never have happened.
I also welcome the delegation. I apologise for not being able to attend the conference in Cork which enabled the committee to inspect the site. I am familiar with the area. I rarely disagree with my esteemed colleague, Deputy Kelly, but there is a special responsibility not on Canada but on the Irish Government and the Irish Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern. The ball is in the court of the Fianna Fáil members of this committee and of the Government. Given the horrific story related by the delegation, which has been reported on many times, and the cost of €5 million for full remediation, it seems there is a responsibility on the part of the Department. After the long campaign on this matter, would the delegation wish the Department and the Minister to ask the EPA or the independent consultants to carry out the remediation proposed by the delegation? This includes the remediation of soil and the reparation of the site.
With regard to Mogul, has the delegation any knowledge of other international examples or regimes such as those in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s in other countries with respect to any extraction company where a full remediation was built into licences granted, where there was a successful arrangement and where neither the health nor culture of local communities was damaged?
I ask the delegation to respond to both questions, in particular the question of the credibility of Mogul. Does the delegation believe the initiative has been taken by another group in order to resolve this?
Mr. Leamy
We are aware of a group in Chile who suffered similar consequences. We understand it was successfully remediated. We do not know whether that was done by the Chilean Government or by the company. The cost of €5.6 million as submitted by SRK is for the whole Silvermines area, not just the tailings pond; it includes four other sites left behind by Mogul. Ideally what we would like to see is the Department coming in and doing the job, with a significant role being played by the EPA. It is up to the Department at that stage to chase Mogul for the money. We would like to see the job done now. The Department can spend another 20 years chasing Mogul for the money. However, we do not see why we should have to wait and breathe in all this muck in the meantime. Is it too much to ask the Department to look after the taxpayers living in the area? It can go after Mogul after that. Is that unreasonable?
I welcome the delegation. I smiled when I heard about the 20-tonne digger that nearly went down. Had it not been for the advice of members of the delegation as to where to walk, some of us could have gone down. It was very boggy and dangerous in certain places. Little more needs to be said about the matter. We have been to the area to see it so we are not talking in a vacuum and know what is happening there.
What can we as a committee do to progress the matter? We know the problem. Besides keeping a watching brief on it, we have received some suggestions. If it is in order I wish to propose them. One suggestion is for the Department to take the community as an equal partner in the process, which should be done immediately. It is also suggested that documents already submitted to the Department, especially those from Mogul, should be circulated to the community. As we are trying to solve this openly, honestly and transparently, I cannot see why this should not be done.
We should ask Department officials to appear before the committee so that we can question them on the matter. We should write to the Department on these matters so that we can be seen to have done something about the issue and perhaps make some progress.
I thank the Senator for his recommendations. In summing up afterwards we must determine where we will go from here. I wish to apologise on behalf of Deputy Coveney, who was in Silvermines but cannot be with us today. He fully supports whatever action can be taken to resolve the difficulties there.
I welcome the delegation and apologise for my absence during the visit to Silvermines. There is no need for me to go as I have obtained enough information from reading the delegation's presentation and from speaking to Deputy Hoctor and Senator O'Meara. Senator Kenneally just stole my thunder with his comments. I agree with him in recommending that officials from the Department appear before the committee. Our recommendations should include a common sense approach. Clearly Mogul cannot be trusted in any way as a partner in this and while any solution must involve us forcing it to face up to its responsibility, it should not take part in any cleaning up operation there. Anything it has done to date has involved pulling the wool over our eyes and finding the quickest way out. It has no commitment to Ireland, Tipperary or the Silvermines area. Whatever solution is agreed will have to be implemented under the control of all partners. Obviously the matter cannot move forward unless the Gortmore Environmental Action Group and the people of the Silvermines area are seen as an equal partner in all aspects.
Mr. Leamy
The role of the Department and transparency were mentioned. The Department knew last September that Mogul planned on dumping this muck on the tailings pond. We met representatives of Mogul in late October and were told they had submitted no plans for the tailings pond. It was only on the day members of this committee came in January that the county council told me an application had been submitted for a waste permit. The Department had known about this since September.
The application for a waste permit had already been submitted by the time we visited the Silvermines.
Mr. Leamy
Yes.
Was this from the county council?
Mr. Leamy
No, it went in to the county council from Landfeeds Environmental Limited. We feel there is no transparency on the part of the Department. In the local area the perception is that the Department is coming down on Mogul's side in this matter. While I am not saying that is true, that perception needs to be addressed and the Department needs to stand behind those in the locality.
As the Gortmore Environmental Action Group has pointed out, the community had a seat at the inter-agency group chaired by the Department of Agriculture and Food and had a seat on the implementation group which was steered by the Environmental Protection Agency. There is no reason for the group not to have a seat on the current forum which comprises the EPA, North Tipperary County Council, the Department and, in effect, Mogul.
It has been said that technical issues arise at those discussions. Technical issues were also discussed at the previous forums and that is not a difficulty. The community has an environmental consultant and there are few people who know more about how the tailings pond works and also know how the other mine sites work, about local agriculture and local conditions in the community. Leaving the group out is fundamentally a bad idea and results in the loss of considerable local knowledge. The views of the committee are clear on this matter.
I hope it will be possible for officials from the Department to appear before the committee soon. As the committee that holds the Department accountable, we have an important role to play. In coming weeks and months we will reach a crunch stage on this matter. While it is important that we have heard from the community group today, it is also important to hear from the Department, particularly about the legal issues surrounding the company and whether it will be possible to ensure that the company is ultimately held responsible in some fashion for the rehabilitation of the mine sites following its neglect for so many years.
Mr. Leamy
I thank the Chairman and the committee for giving us this chance to appear here and make our presentation. I thank Senator O'Meara and Deputy Hoctor for all the work they have done behind the scenes. They have both been of huge help to us.
I agree with the request by Senator Kenneally and Senator MacSharry for officials of the Department to appear before the committee.
This has been a very productive session and I hope it has been worthwhile from the delegation's point of view. Following our visit in January, it was natural for the group to appear before the committee. There has been a good attendance by committee members from all parties, all of whom are concerned about the situation.
Actions speak louder than words. The group has been through many false dawns over the years and the problem is compounded as time goes on. Mogul has walked away from the project and it is questionable as to whether it was ever serious about pumping money back into it. Even though the committee's programme has been set, we will try to arrange a meeting with the Department of Communications, the Marine and Natural Resources. I will speak to the committee Chairman and Clerk in that context. We are anxious that this be progressed and action taken as quickly as possible.
The committee has powers to provide rapporteurs, as we did in the case of the BCI and local radio stations in recent times. It is possible to do that and come up with interim recommendations to encourage the Department to take action. We will call its officials before us to account for their stewardship. If the EPA found the types of proposals made by Mogul have compounded the problem, they cannot be regarded as forming a serious solution. We are all anxious to see action taken and the sooner the better. I believe that sums up the sentiments of the members present. I thank Senator O’Meara and Deputy Hoctor, who have taken a great interest in this matter. I know they do not want to still be talking about this two years from now and want to see something positive happening. I thank Mr. Leamy and his group for attending.