I welcome the representatives of the Black Valley Community Group, Mr. NoelKissane, Ms Debbie O'Sullivan and Ms Kitty O'Connor. There was a joint proposal by Deputies Broughan and Durkan to invite this group before the committee and to find a suitable slot for them to appear before it. Before I ask Mr. Kissane to begin his presentation, I advise everyone that we will receive a short presentation, which will be followed by a question and answer session. All mobile telephones should be switched off.
Telecommunications Services in County Kerry: Presentation.
Certainly, the witnesses will not receive any calls from their homes.
I wish to draw everyone's attention to the fact that while members of this committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. The committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Further, under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
I ask Mr. Kissane to introduce his delegation and to begin his presentation.
Mr. Noel Kissane
My name is Noel Kissane and I am accompanied by my neighbours. On my immediate left is Debbie O'Sullivan and next to her is Kitty O'Connor. I am delighted the joint committee has given us the opportunity to appear before it to make a presentation on behalf of the people of the Black Valley, County Kerry, concerning the disastrous telephone service which we receive from Eircom.
First, I wish to outline the location of the Black Valley to the members. We live in a remote but beautiful area of County Kerry known as the Black Valley, situated near the Gap of Dunloe at the foot of the McGillicuddy Reeks and Carrauntuohill, Ireland's highest mountain, and bordering the Lakes of Killarney. We are located approximately 20 miles from the town of Killarney. Approximately 100 people live in 46 houses in the Black Valley and more new houses are being built. The valley has its own church and national school, which 32 students attend. We first received a telephone service in April 1990, known as the Rurtel system. This system was among the first to be installed in Ireland in respect of remote areas. It uses a radio link telephone and works by bouncing a signal from Killarney to an area known as Lady's View, from there to the Black Valley repeater station and then on to individual households. Each house must be in line of sight of the repeater station. A pole with an antenna and control box is erected near each house and from this a cable carries the service into the house, where it connects in the same way as any ordinary telephone service.
After this system was installed in 1990, it worked reasonably well for some time but the service has been deteriorating for many years. Eircom has carried out very little maintenance. The Rurtel system is now outdated and worn out and people are often without any type of telephone service. In the event of a power failure in the area, there is a battery backup to keep the system going but batteries in several locations have not been changed. When there is a power failure, the entire system stops and people are left without any telephone service. I confirm that this is the situation today. When I left home at 6.30 a.m., I had a telephone service. Then, the lights went out and the service returned at 12.30 p.m.
The telephone service has become so bad in recent years that it can be impossible to make a call and there are many occasions when we are without any service. If one succeeds in making a connection, one must conduct the call with a disturbance on the line. After a time, the call will disconnect and one must dial again. When, on other occasions, people call residents in the Black Valley, the caller will hear a ringing tone but the resident's telephone will not ring. It can be almost impossible to send or receive a basic fax message and the possibility of receiving Internet access is non-existent for the majority. This Rurtel system is not suitable for Internet access. Students in the national school have received State funding through the schools broadband access programme but do not have Internet access because the telephone service is unsuitable. Those students are deprived of a basic right to receive Internet access, something the majority of students now take for granted in their schools. Why are students in the Black Valley denied Internet access even though an IT grant is available to their school?
The reality of the Black Valley's situation came into acute focus earlier this year when an elderly man living there sought medical assistance from a doctor by telephone. As is prone to happen, the telephone went dead and the doctor could not make further contact with the patient by telephone. It was possible for the doctor to get a ringing tone but there was no answer. To be on the safe side, the doctor set off for the Black Valley from Killarney and spent hours trying to locate the patient's home but was unable to do so and got lost. It was the next morning when the doctor finally arrived at the patient's house. The mobile telephone service in the valley is completely insufficient, which meant that the doctor could not make contact with the patient during the night.
The people of the Black Valley have continually brought the matter of their disastrous telephone service to the attention of Eircom but nothing has been done. I have in my possession the many letters I have written to Eircom — the first of which I sent in 1999 — on the issue. The answer I received was that Eircom was looking into the matter, which is still the case today. We were recently informed by Eircom that the cost of a fixed line service to the Black Valley would be approximately €650,000. It will not spend this money because the service is not viable and is not seen to be a worthwhile investment.
We are a small community trying to stand up to large private companies, such as Eircom, that are only interested in profit and not providing a service where it is badly needed. The amount of money ultimately required to address our problems is not significant. In 1990 Eircom, formerly Telecom Éireann, had the resources and technology to provide us with a telephone service. We find it hard to believe that almost 16 years later, with technology having developed so much more, it cannot solve this problem, or should I state it will not even try to do so? The residents and students of the Black Valley seek a decent telephone service with internet access, similar to what the majority in the country now take for granted. In the telecommunications age it is inexplicable that a small community, albeit in a remote location, is denied the most basic communications infrastructure. The Black Valley is a tourist area, in which a number of businesses and visitors require such basic services. Emergency services such as the Kerry Mountain Rescue Service also require them as it works in extremely difficult conditions on the McGillicuddy Reeks andCarrauntuohill searching for injured and missing persons.
The people of the Black Valley are also denied an adequate mobile phone service. I note the main mobile phone operators are trying to solve this problem, subject to the granting of planning permission. I am sorry to state that today Kerry County Council refused planning permission to bring a mobile phone service to the Black Valley. I checked the website at Dublin Airport to find the application had been refused.
We have come before the committee as a last resort to ask the Chairman and its members what can they do to help us. Our telephone service does not work properly. It is old and worn, as can be seen from the photographs I took on Saturday afternoon. Why are we denied a basic telephone service in this day and age? It may be difficult for members of the committee to get a clear image of the Black Valley and the reality of our situation. Many must see it to believe it. Accordingly, we invite the Chairman and members of the committee to visit the Black Valley to see the situation at first hand. We thank them for their time and courtesy in hearing our case and appeal to them to help us achieve what we need and deserve. We have fought on this issue for years and do not want our children and their children to have to fight the same battles in the years ahead. We are happy to answer any questions.
I thank Mr. Kissane for coming before the committee today. Deputy Moynihan-Cronin has a number of questions for the delegation.
I thank the Chairman. I welcome Mr. Kissane, Ms O'Sullivan and Ms O'Connor and thank them for travelling from the Black Valley today to outline their difficulties.
I have examined the records and found that this issue was first raised in the Houses of the Oireachtas in 1977. At that time money was not as plentiful as it is now, but in the era of the Celtic tiger and at a time when Eircom makes such profits, it is hard to believe one can hear such a story as we have heard today. I ask members of the committee and representatives from Eircom to read the paragraph about the elderly man who could not receive medical assistance.
Those of us who have telephones take them for granted. The people concerned do not seek a luxury but a basic service. While travelling on the train to Dublin today, a member of the delegation needed to be contacted by their family but could not be reached until 1.30 p.m. because of lack of access to a telephone line. That should not occur in this day and age. The pupils in the Black Valley are probably the only ones in the country who cannot avail of Internet access, despite the fact that they have received a grant from the Department of Education and Science to do so. They will be at a distinct disadvantage when they go to secondary school either in Kenmare or in Killarney. Pupils coming from other schools will be way ahead of them as far as this technology is concerned. The other issue which must be addressed is the refusal of an application by Vodafone despite a successful preplanning meeting with the planning officials, but this is an issue for another day.
I thank the Chairman for facilitating the delegation. Apart from Deputy Broughan, the other members of this committee live outside Dublin and we are aware of the difficulties. Those living outside Dublin city know that there is less priority given to the country, particularly a very rural area such as the Black Valley. However, it is a vibrant community of 100 people, with its own church and school, a fantastic community council and community groups. They are at the end of their tether and do not know where to turn. There is cross-party support for this proposal and it is down to money. The cost is €650,000 which will not break anybody.
I ask the Chairman to accept the invitation to visit the community regardless of whether the media will call it a junket. It would be well worth the members of this committee and the representatives of Eircom meeting the community and giving an honest answer to these people as to the reason they cannot be given a basic service. I do not wish to take up the time of the other members but I appeal to all around this table today to come together in order that, like the issue of the tailing ponds in Silvermines, a successful outcome can be achieved. We need to stand up on behalf of small rural communities so that they do not die out. I thank the members of the delegation, Noel Kissane, Debbie O'Sullivan and Kitty O'Connor, for travelling up. I thank the Chairman and I know we will have his support.
Before calling Senator Coghlan I wish to advise the committee that a representative from Eircom will make a presentation.
I am pleased to attend the committee and I am very grateful to the Chairman and to Deputy Durkan. I wish to support everything Noel Kissane, Debbie O'Sullivan and Kitty O'Connor have said. They are unanimous in their view. It is a scandalous situation which has been outlined. I fully endorse what Deputy Moynihan-Cronin has said. People cannot be cut off any more and this communication is a basic right. The delegation outlined the awful scenario of the doctor not being able to make contact with a patient for more than 12 hours.
I am aware of the concerns expressed by this committee. Deputy Durkan visited the Black Valley and met Councillor John O'Connor and Councillor Fitzgerald. I have sat in on this committee on other occasions and I know the good work being done by the Chairman and by this committee. It has been proved that this committee is influential. This situation is crying out for redress. I urge the Chairman and all the members to use their influence and good offices to right this blatant wrong that is crying out to high heaven for redress. Mr. Kissane has informed us of the refusal of a planning application.
I welcome the representatives of the Black Valley Community Group, Mr. Noel Kissane, Ms Debbie O'Sullivan and Ms Kitty O'Connor. We cannot treat people whose families have lived in that beautiful part of the world for generations in the manner in which they are being treated simply because the area is remote. Irrespective of whether the decision should be appealed, I request that the matter be examined by the joint committee.
I thank the delegation for its attendance and congratulate it for the presentation. The two previous speakers, both of whom have local knowledge, have indicated what the position is in the Black Valley. In May I had occasion to meet representatives from the community and they outlined the position, much as the delegation has done today. Like other speakers, I do not accept it is impossible to provide a telecommunications service at this point in our technological development, nor do I accept the notion that the cost of a service should be isolated for particular areas. This approach is akin to deciding not to provide a person in a group water scheme with a service because the cost would be prohibitive. Costings for services are not done in this way; rather, overall costs are spread over an entire area. County Kerry — the Kingdom — could be considered in its entirety when evaluating the cost of providing a service for the Black Valley.
I suggest that, as a matter of urgency, Eircom or another service provider be given an opportunity to provide telecommunications services for the Black Valley. The company in question should regard the offer to provide services as a challenge to its technology in an era when so many advances are being made in modern technology. As I noted at a previous meeting of the joint committee, if we are able to put a man on the moon and men and women into space, it should at least be possible to provide telephone services for the hills and valleys of this country.
I am particularly disappointed by the absence of a worthwhile initiative from the regulator, ComReg. It is part of that body's responsibility to assess the needs of consumers and communities and determine how best they can be met in the shortest possible period. Clearly, it failed to carry out such an assessment in this case. If one was carried out, it was made in an unsatisfactory fashion.
While it may not be appropriate to comment on the universal service obligation at this point, I reject in its entirety the response given thus far. The issues under consideration must be those set out by previous speakers. A service comparable with those available elsewhere in the locality and nationally must be provided. In addition, in view of the mountainous terrain in the region, it is even more important that the area have a telecommunications service. Under no circumstances should people have to depend on batteries to provide telephone services. One would expect it to be a distinct badge of honour for a company providing telecommunications services to seize this opportunity and prove to all and sundry that it can provide services where others have failed.
Group broadband schemes operate throughout the country. I do not believe it is impossible to achieve what is required by isolating the telecommunications service for the Black Valley. The net, including costs, must be spread wider, as would be the case with a group water scheme or any other group scheme. If one narrowed down the cost of a group water scheme to four or five houses, access would be extremely expensive for each user, whereas by spreading costs over 300 or 400 houses, they decrease dramatically.
I propose that the Chairman use his influence to seek proposals from alternative service providers with a view to drawing up a more realistic cost for the provision of services in the Black Valley than the current figure of €750,000. I make that proposal.
We will hear the other side. Judging from the comments made, the committee may have to make several proposals in a very short document after today's proceedings.
I welcome Mr. NoelKissane, Ms Debbie O'Sullivan and Ms Kitty O'Connor. In the past few years I have been constantly chased by my colleague, Deputy Moynihan-Cronin, who has alerted me to the problem that the delegates have suffered, as has Councillor Owen O'Shea who has also been relentless. I am delighted to see the delegates here today.
This seems like a classic case of the people that time forgot. It is certainly an example of something that Eircom, the country's universal service provider, forgot. The first thing that strikes one when listening to the presentation is that it is astonishing that this service was not provided until 1990. That is amazing, since nearly every other area, including islands and remote areas, would have had a telephone service at least 20 years before. I know the Killarney-Kenmare road very well since I have some connections on the Beara Peninsula. In recent years I have often wondered about the state of communications there.
I would like Mr. Kissane to refer to the equipment which appears to be alarmingly dated, disgraceful and rusty. It is a total shambles. Perhaps he might explain exactly what it is supposed to do and is clearly not doing. Will Ms O'Sullivan or Ms O'Connor give an example of a typical week in the Black Valley, detailing what happens to residents' communications? It is extraordinary that they are also hamstrung because of mobile signals. We deal with communications every week and all the talk is about the convergence of mobiles and fixed lines. Eircom has now reverted to having its own mobile phone company.
I echo what my colleague from Fine Gael, Deputy Durkan, said. There must be a way, using all the available technology, to accommodate the 45 or 50 families affected. Perhaps the delegates might give the committee some examples of what happens regarding communications in a typical week. The example of the medical emergency is absolutely shocking, disgraceful and outrageous. The situation should not be allowed to continue for another minute.
Has the Black Valley committee applied to the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Noel Dempsey, or the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív, for a grant whereby the local community in County Kerry could go into partnership with Eircom with the help of Government funding?
I am delighted to see the delegation before the committee. I commend the chairperson, with whom I had a few sharp words on another matter last week, on his excellent work on a problem important not only locally but nationally, given the area of the country concerned.
I will take the answers to those questions first, since there were quite a few, before turning to Deputy Healy-Rae who has also done a tremendous amount of work on this issue, as is evident today.
I pay special tribute to the Chairman for allowing me to speak and inviting members of the Black Valley Community Group to come before the committee to discuss telecommunications in the area. As the Chairman can see, I have been working on this issue, bringing a deputation to Dublin last June. As a result, an assessment was made that a fixed pole and wire network would cost €650,000. In the light of what the people of the valley are going through and their children regarding the school computer, let there be no doubt that the question now arises of whether, given the massive sums being wasted on other projects, their lives are now worth €650,000. It boils down to a straight question: can we see fit to spend €650,000 to give the people concerned the way of life that everyone else has in County Cork, County Tipperary or any other part of the State? Kerry County Council is adding fuel to the fire by refusing them their right to a mobile phone service, something everyone has. This morning it refused planning permission for a mast. That should make the headlines in every news programme in the world tonight. The people concerned have been deprived by their own county council of a mobile phone network for the Black Valley in order they could at least use a mobile phone if the other telephone service broke down.
I cannot thank the Chairman enough for receiving the deputation and Deputy Moynihan-Cronin and Senator Coghlan for showing their support. We must put our shoulder to the wheel in order that we can do something for the people concerned before they go home. I know the Chairman will help in any way he can. I thank him and appeal to him in the strongest possible terms not to let the Black Valley remain in this hell for the sake of €650,000 when the country is heaving with money.
I acknowledge the correspondence Deputy Healy-Rae has received on these matters.
Mr. Kissane
I have a photograph of the equipment which I emailed to each committee member. On the left hand side we can see the main pole at my house. That is one of the main repeater stations that receives the signal and then bounces it to other houses. On its right, the rusty red box contains the backup battery system.
How does the telephone service work?
Mr. Kissane
It works like an ordinary telephone but the signal is sent by radio link. Before mobile phones, that is how the signal was sent. It is sent by the antenna on top of the post. The red box which was originally white contains the battery backup system in case there is a power failure. The box has not been opened for years and is held together by rust. At the bottom of the photograph we can see the electricity supply that leads into another rusty box. That is how the system works. There are two rusty boxes that contain the power supply, as well as a pole and an old aerial.
When there is a power failure, the battery is supposed to keep it going. Is that not happening?
Mr. Kissane
The batteries do not last.
How are they charged? Is electricity used to do this?
Mr. Kissane
They are recharged using electricity when the power returns.
Who is responsible for maintaining them?
Mr. Kissane
Eircom.
Ms Debbie O’Sullivan
The telephone constantly crackles, we lose calls and must call back and sometimes there is no dialling tone. I am the furthest into the valley and must drive ten miles to the nearest telephone because of the lack of mobile phone coverage and payphones.
Ms Kitty O’Connor
My situation is similar to that of Ms O'Sullivan. The absence of a mobile telephone service means I cannot contact my four teenage children. Where I live people walk, cycle and take boats out onto the lakes. A few years ago a lady was stung by a wasp, which prompted an allergic reaction. When she got to my house I called an ambulance and drove her the seven miles over the Gap of Dunloe to meet it at the other side. Had I not had a telephone the ambulance would not have been there. It was a serious situation but having the telephone meant I was able to get help an hour sooner than I would otherwise have been able to.
The weather was beautiful last July but the heat affected the reception, as does heavy rain. It seems that no weather suits it.
Can Mr. Kissane answer the question about the grants?
Mr. Kissane
I am not aware of any of my neighbours having applied for a grant.
Is Mr. Kissane aware that grants may be available?
Mr. Kissane
I am learning such information today.
I am concerned that the mountain rescue service in the valley, as my colleague said, is not served by a telephone or other link. The coastal cliff rescue section of the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources is responsible for providing that service. We might sit in private session to consider rolling out such a service, scoped to include the views of residents.
I agree with colleagues that technological discrimination exists in this case and it must be addressed. The digital divide with respect to the Black Valley is far greater than we had imagined. We will examine how the group broadband scheme might take into account points made by the delegation and be tailored to its needs. We are worried, as Deputy Moynihan-Cronin said, that children will be technologically disadvantaged. Does Mr. Kissane know if the school is to be broadband enabled with a satellite link? What is the position?
Is satellite television what most people have?
Mr. Kissane
I had to wait until the advent of satellite to get my first television in 1989 and spent my whole time watching what was happening in England. I only received RTE One and RTE Two with the upgrading of satellite a few years ago, so that I could watch what everybody else here was watching. I have only been able to see what is happening in Dáil Éireann in the past two or three years.
There are three other questions. Is Rurtel completely maintained by Eircom or the ESB?
Mr. Kissane
Eircom.
I saw the figure of €650,000 in Deputy Healy-Rae's document. Did Eircom provide that figure?
Eircom gave an undertaking to my deputation to carry out an investigation into what the landline would cost.
Eircom is obliged to provide services at €121.93 per telephone connection up to a total cost of €7,000, above which it becomes a matter for the householder. Does the €650,000 include the universal service obligation?
It would cost €650,000 in total to put the landline into the valley. The chairman will see from the document that Eircom stated there were not enough customers in the Black Valley to justify that type of investment.
We will ask Eircom about that in a short while. We have no part to play in the planning process but why was the application refused? Was it because of the Black Valley itself or objections from people living in the Black Valley?
Mr. Kissane
Nobody in the Black Valley objected to the planning permission. I read on the Internet that it had been refused. I heard from a third party that there is a commercial premises within a mile of the proposed 5 m pole. Nobody lives in this premises at night but personnel work in the shop during the day.
How many people from the area objected?
Mr. Kissane
Nobody objected.
There are 46 houses in the Black Valley.
More are being built.
Are all of the people occupying those houses willing to subscribe to a proper telephone service? Do they want such a service?
Mr. Kissane
Yes.
All of the people in the 46 houses want the service.
Mr. Kissane
I have not heard anybody there stating that they do not want a telephone service. A petition was sent to Eircom.
At the very least, is it correct to state that the majority of people are in favour of a landline-based telephone service?
Mr. Kissane
Yes. They are also in favour of a mobile service.
Ms O’Connor
Every house in the valley has a telephone but the problem is with the service.
They have a Rurtel telephone.
Ms O’Connor
The service is so bad that it cannot be depended upon.
All 46 houses have a telephone but all houses want a land-based line.
On 26 April 2005, I tabled two parliamentary questions, one asking the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources what steps he intended to take to ensure that a radio telephone service at a location specified in County Kerry was upgraded and if he would make a statement on the matter. The second asked the Minister what steps he intended to take to reassure persons at a specified location, the Black Valley in Kerry, and if he would make a statement on the matter. The questions were disallowed and a reply stated that the Minister had no official responsibility to Dáil Éireann for such matters, which fall under the remit of the communications regulator. The information I received is wrong. The Minister has responsibility to the people of the Black Valley.
We are finishing on this part of the session. The joint committee is about to finish its broadband report also. The Deputy can be assured that the members of this joint committee, once we have heard from Eircom, will make a positive statement regarding people who are disenfranchised or discriminated against in terms of technology.
I thank the Chairman.
I have one final question.
We should be given an opportunity to formulate what is to be done.
Is the Chairman aware of any other group of people in the country that is in the same situation?
There are some remote areas, including one in Offaly, which have similar difficulties. We will investigate the matter and see if the joint committee can add value to the process by asking the relevant Department to roll out different schemes, be they fixed lines, satellite, wi-fi or any other link. We will seek to ensure that these people are not left without this vital service for much longer.
I recall that Deputy Healy-Rae voted for the privatisation of Eircom. This must be remembered.
It is fair that we hear from the other side. I thank Mr. Kissane for travelling from the Black Valley, which I know he has invited us to see. I can assure him that we have been in Kerry several times. If such a trip is necessary the members will consider going. I thank Mr. Kissane for the invitation and for appearing before us. I also thank Ms O'Sullivan and Ms O'Connor.
Mr. Kissane
I thank the Chairman.
We will now ask Mr. Pat Galvin to appear before the joint committee. I thank the delegation for appearing before the committee today. Ms O'Malley, what is your function?
Ms O’Malley
I work in the commercial department in Eircom and I dealt with Deputy Healy-Rae on the issue previously.
I ask Mr. Galvin to tell the committee about the IT scheme he introduced last year. Was it successful? Was there a significant take-up of the customer packages for Internet, etc., which Eircom was providing?
Mr. Pat Galvin
I thank the Chairman for the welcome to the committee. On that specific question, we have found in the past six to nine months that there has been a substantial increase in demand generally for IT based services, particularly broadband. While Eircom shared the disappointment of everybody at the slow start, the rate of growth in broadband take-up in the past six months has been encouraging, based not only on what Eircom is doing but also on what is being done by all the other services providers who are developing products like pricing packages and IT applications. It is positive.
I advise everyone that we will receive a short presentation which will be followed by a question and answer session. I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not extend to witnesses appearing before the committee. The committee cannot guarantee any level of privileges to witnesses appearing before it. Further, under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
Mr. Galvin heard most of the presentation by the Black Valley residents and is familiar with the matter. He might let us know what services his company is providing at present and also what legal obligations are on his company as a USO to provide a better service.
Mr. Galvin
The community delegation from the Black Valley has given a graphic explanation of the nature of the technology used in the Black Valley and we would be the first to agree it is not satisfactory in 2005 that there is this type of arrangement. We share their frustration and concerns. Our commitment to the Black Valley people, which we have made clear to the public representatives who have made contact with us on this, is that we are extremely concerned to find a proper solution. The problem we face is finding the most efficient solution based on the fact that the technology that we could use to solve the problem is changing. What I would hope to do, with the agreement of the Chairman, is to go through the presentation which addresses many of those issues, including universal service.
I understand the members have been given a copy of the presentation and I would ask them to look at slide No. 2. We are telling the committee what it knows already about the telecommunications network. The biggest challenge facing telecommunications operators is not the construction of trunk or national infrastructure because that is relatively easy, comprising various different technologies like radio, fibre-coaxial cable. The big challenge is the access network, that is, the expensive capital intensive portion of the network that links the local exchange to the end user. The Black Valley is an extreme example of how difficult that problem can be. I mention on the first slide that aside from the fact that it has environmental and amenity issues, which perhaps may have underpinned the decision not to award planning permission on the cellular telephony mast, we would face the same sort of issues in the fixed network. The most important point is that it is not suitable for various technologies, and particularly radio technology. The terrain in the Black Valley, in common with the terrain in some other parts of the country, is not suitable for radio technology.
The development of telecommunications is such that for mainly rural areas in the future the main way that service will be provided will be over radio, whether that is cellular radio like a mobile telephone network or what is called developing fixed line of sight radio. Generally, that is the way the industry is moving and the construction of copper based networks in rural areas may not be the most efficient way because the technology of radio is improving by leaps and bounds. That is a significant issue as we address this problem.
I would ask members to move to the next slide. I hear the concerns of the community and of the committee, but I want to assure them of my company's bona fides on the Black Valley. It is true the issue dates back to the 1970s. In fact, we solved the problem based on the latest technology in the 1990s. It was a simple case where we devised a unique solution with our suppliers of the system to develop what is called Rurtel, which is based on a repeater network. To explain the difference in simple terms, radio usually depends on what is called line of sight, where an antenna on a hill has a line of sight to every house it serves. That is a clear and neat way of operating. The problem with the Black Valley and other communities is that the concept of line of sight does not work for every house. Therefore, a complicated repeater process is necessary, whereby the signal is bounced from one antenna to another until, ultimately, it reaches the end-user. This is far more problematic and difficult than a direct line of sight wireless solution.
Rurtel was developed to serve not just the Black Valley but also areas in the west, including counties Galway, Mayo and Donegal, as well as part of rural County Offaly. In total, some 900 customers are served by Rurtel. We are concerned about recent problems, particularly in the specific case of the person who was ill. In that regard, the key issue for Eircom is the stability of the electricity supply. I accept that a battery fired system sounds very antiquated, as if it came from the Stone Age. However, a battery backup system in Rurtel is exactly the same as a battery backup system in an exchange in Ballsbridge. All of our exchanges are powered by electricity and have a battery backup system. If an exchange in the centre of Dublin goes down, it switches to the battery backup system. The reasonable expectation on our part, given engineering specifications, is that the electricity supply will be restored after a certain period. What happened in the specific incident in April was that the electricity supply had not been restored when the battery system went down. If it had, the battery system would not have been an issue, notwithstanding other problems identified by Mr.Kissane, which I accept. To clarify, to have a battery backup system is a standard engineering approach for every telecoms network, including radio based and fixed line networks.
With regard to the problem of broadband services for Rurtel and schools, in particular, Eircom is the single biggest contributor to the broadband for schools initiative. I understand the Black Valley school to which reference was made has been given a broadband commitment by the Minister for Education and Science and that the service will operate through a satellite connection. Eircom tendered for the provision of broadband to over 4,000 schools. We were not awarded the contract for the school in question but my expectation is that whoever got the contract will probably look towards satellite as a way of delivering broadband. As soon as the programme of installation begins, the pupils of the Black Valley school will not be at a disadvantage because I expect that whoever provides the broadband link will provide a high quality, high capacity link using a direct satellite link to the roof of the school. Therefore, it will not have to deal with the type of terrain issues Eircom would have to face if it tried to install the link using copper wire and poles.
I emphasise that, contrary to perception, we have not ignored the Black Valley. As soon as this latest issue was brought to our attention, we responded and were in contact with local representatives. We committed to doing certain work which is under way, including work to extend the battery life of the current system in case a similar incident occurs. We are arranging the supply for the installation of batteries in the next four weeks and expect them to be installed before Christmas. That is not the full answer but an attempt to rectify particular problems that have arisen in recent months.
With regard to the information on the work to be carried out immediately, is this the first time it has been made public?
Mr. Galvin
I am not sure of the content of the latest conversations between Eircom and public representatives. However, not only have we committed to installing new batteries but we have begun the process of arranging their delivery from our suppliers. This also means that other associated work such as replacing the frames of the batteries because the new batteries will be bigger——
For the record, Mr. Galvin——
Mr. Galvin
For the record, this is new information.
This information was not contained in the submission from the Black Valley Community Group. It is new to us. Can I take it that this is the first time that the members of this committee and all the other people assembled here today have heard this?
Mr. Galvin
The Chairman can take it that is the case.
Mr. Galvin may proceed.
Mr. Galvin
The main issue for us is determining how to solve this problem. Much of the controversy about costs arose in this regard. I will try to address this to the greatest extent possible but, before doing so, I would like the members to examine the slide concerning Eircom's commitment to rural Ireland. Eircom, more than any other company in the telecommunications industry, is demonstrating a commitment to rural areas, and this is evident from how it is constructing networks. It insists upon doing so and has a regulatory obligation to do so. It does so in a different manner to other utility companies. Eircom charges a basic, standard, uniform charge throughout the country regardless of the costs. The ESB, for example, charges for individual pole construction to a new house whereas Eircom does not. In individual cases, Eircom has invested thousands of euro to bring individual telephone lines to individual houses, depending on the overall requirement in the area in question. I will deal with the Black Valley separately because of its unique position in respect of costs.
The question of the universal service obligation was raised. The Chairman referred to a decision of ComReg regarding the definition of Eircom's obligation. We work within a very strict EU regulatory framework and our industry has become competitive as a result of there being many different operators. The regulations recognise that the universal service obligation must be reasonably bounded in some way, otherwise companies such as Eircom would be exposed to massive costs to meet every request for service from every conceivable geographic location. The EU regulations and directives recognise that the regulator may bound that obligation reasonably. The regulator has introduced new rules concerning universal service obligations.
However, a technical issue arises in respect of universal service obligations in terms of our extending our existing network to reach new customers. The concern we have in the Black Valley is that we have an existing network and that the universal service obligation does not apply to its upgrade. In other words, the extra cost associated with upgrading Rurtel is not technically a universal service obligation issue. A universal service obligation issue concerns the extension of our existing network to reach a new customer.
If Eircom did not upgrade and retain a service, would it be meeting its universal service obligation? The point is that there is a service in place which is not working. Technology that is 15 years of age is very old. To meet a universal service obligation, one must surely deliver a modern service that can connect people.
Mr. Galvin
That is correct. Let me outline a hypothetical worst case scenario. If we were starting over and had a request for 40 new phones for the Black Valley area and our network stopped outside the Black Valley, the straightforward position, as currently regulated by ComReg, would be that each house would pay the excess cost above €7,000.
How would that come about? Surely it is possible to assess the market on a broader base rather than narrowing it down to the smallest, most concentrated and most expensive one. Would it not be theoretically possible to spread the service over a wider market instead of requiring customers in the Black Valley to pay €13,000 per house when the service reaches the mouth of the valley?
Mr. Galvin
Our obligation is to charge what we call a geographically average price throughout the country. What the Deputy has outlined is what happens in that our charge for the rental of a line in certain rural areas, and certain urban areas, will never amount to the actual capital cost. However, other lines in densely populated areas obviously do so. For the benefit of the consumer we are required to charge the same rent irrespective of the location of any phone, be it five miles or 100 m from the nearest exchange. In principle, this is what happens.
The document given to us by ComReg was produced as a result of Eircom not connecting houses perhaps 200 m or 500 m from a telephone line because of the costs involved in erecting poles and other such works. Is it correct that Eircom is obliged, under the universal service obligation and under the direction of ComReg, to install a telephone line where the cost does not exceed €7,000? Is my understanding of that correct?
Mr. Galvin
I have not seen what ComReg has given. It has just been passed to me and I am not familiar with the details.
Just let the committee know what you do understand.
Mr. Galvin
My explicit understanding is that if a reasonable request for a telephone is made to the company, we calculate the cost of providing that service. If that cost is in excess of €7,000, the end-user, the customer, pays the balance. If the cost is say, €8,000 and the customer wishes to proceed, he or she will pay a €1,000 contribution towards the costs.
Of the €650,000 that Mr. Galvin is quoting, is he saying, in effect, that half that amount is Eircom's cost under the universal service obligation, USO?
Mr. Galvin
If the USO rating was applied to the Black Valley, that would be the case. However, with the Chairman's permission, we need to have a further discussion with ComReg regarding the specific issues pertaining to the Black Valley. As I explained, USO, in our view, is an extension of our existing network to cover a new applicant outside of its reach. Rurtel is currently part of the Eircom network. We need to clarify that particular subtlety with ComReg because that has significant implications for us.
Mr. Galvin is being very helpful. Deputy Broughan is quite correct in saying that to provide a telephone service based on the figures Mr. Galvin has estimated could cost each household €6,500 or thereabouts. Is Mr. Galvin seeking further discussion with ComReg regarding the regulation?
Mr. Galvin
It is about our mutual agreed understanding of the obligation under the USO.
In the light of SI 308 and the other documents given to Mr. Galvin, this decision was made on 7 September 2005. Has Eircom had discussions with ComReg on this particular issue?
Mr. Galvin
Yes, we have.
Has the company taken legal advice on it as well?
Mr. Galvin
No, and we do not necessarily look——
Does he accept that there is this obligation?
Mr. Galvin
We do, absolutely.
We are now at a starting point.
Mr. Galvin
I want to make it absolutely clear. I am concerned lest the impression is given that every time ComReg asks us to do something we seek legal advice as to whether we need to.
That is helpful.
Mr. Galvin
I appreciate that. We are absolutely committed to USO. On viewing the next slide, I will ask the committee to acknowledge the extent to which Eircom is present in rural Ireland where none of the other global operators who are investing in the Irish market have a presence in terms of network construction. If the USO regime is applied to the Black Valley, it will mean that each house seeking a fixed network connection will pay €14,000 less €7,000.
I understand that now and it is something we can consider. Did Mr. Galvin say, in his statement, that Rurtel is already part of the network?
Mr. Galvin
Our network comprises various technologies and Rurtel is part of the Eircom national network.
Does Mr. Galvin accept that the technology is not up to standard?
Mr. Galvin
We accept absolutely that while it was a unique and very good solution 15 years ago, technology moves on and we now need to look at it further. That is what I would like to move on to, as regards the presentation. In looking at the options and many of the concerns raised today, we are currently upgrading the batteries so that individual instances where the electricity supply is off for longer than eight hours will not create an immediate problem. The lifetime of the batteries is to be extended.
The other options are to replace with a copper network. We understand the concerns expressed by the community and the members in this regard. However, at a time of rapid technology change, committing to €650,000 to install one technology, landline copper, may not be the most efficient way to solve this problem.
What if a fibre optic was put in and the people were given the latest technology?
Mr. Galvin
The €650,000 assumes overhead poles and copper wire. If Kerry County Council disallowed the construction of one 5 m antenna, I am not sure we would be given the permission to lace the Black Valley with poles and lines. That is an issue we would have to deal with, depending on the attitude of the council. It also assumes a new exchange, because we would have to build a new remote service unit and exchange in the Black Valley. It also assumes overhead wires. Fibre generally tends to be dug in rather than put on poles, which would not be technically suitable. That costs €650,000——
Fibre in the silicon valley in California is on poles. In Ephrata, Washington State, 40,000 houses are connected in a rural environment similar to the Black Valley, although it would not be as beautiful. They are connected by fibre optic cables from an electrical pole.
Mr. Galvin
I accept the Chairman's clarification. In the context of the Black Valley, I wonder whether we would be allowed to sling copper or fibre over poles into every house. If we were obliged to put it on the ground, that cost of €650,000 would be vastly increased because it would literally mean digging trenches to every house in the Black Valley. That illustrates one of the biggest problems in trying to resolve this.
It is likely that this type of network challenge will be answered by wireless technology in the future. I was not aware that the cellular option had been dismissed today. Eircom is re-entering the cellular market, subject to regulatory approval which we are waiting from the Competition Authority. If we were to re-enter that market, we would immediately assess the cost of providing a cellular solution. From the discussion today, I understand that O2 tried to do that, but was turned down by the planning authorities. We share the concerns of other network operators in Ireland that there is no absolute solution in catering for individual circumstances. Cellular technology is probably the best for the Black Valley and we see it as the most cost-effective way of doing it. We will face the same sort of planning issues that O2 is currently facing with the local authorities.
There is another wireless solution emerging that is called WiMAX. I outlined earlier the problem with fixed wireless, which is point to point. Unfortunately, WiMAX has the same disadvantage, because of the particular terrain of the valley. It is likely that the best solution will be a radio solution such as cellular, in order to give good quality voice telephony. The cellular companies are also advertising significant broadband services using the 3G network that is currently being built.
Landline copper is a very expensive, not necessarily future-proof solution. Radio seems to be the best way to do it. It is a question of getting it in as efficiently as possible and meeting the requirements of the people in the valley as quickly as possible. We have promised the community that we will work very quickly to resolve this using the best network in the circumstances.
If Eircom does not upgrade the existing network, or go for the copper, it has not yet costed the wireless technology.
Mr. Galvin
We have not costed wireless technology because our experts advised us that fixed wireless technology is not technically viable, because there is no line of sight, while WiMAX is the same. However, we are willing to discuss with the cellular operators what a cellular option costs. O2 has attempted to provide a solution for this, so it clearly would have carried out costings. I do not expect that it would be as expensive as €650,000, because we are talking about an antenna with a radio signal, as distinct from plant, poles and wires.
I wish to emphasise the commitment which we have shown to individual Deputies and to members of the local community who have contacted us. We do not let down rural Ireland and we will not down let the Black Valley. Eircom is present everywhere and faces enormous investment decisions throughout rural Ireland in order to have a competitive market on our own network. We will try to improve the current system and urgently because action is required in respect of the batteries. We are examining all our options to try to resolve the problem as quickly as possible. However, in general, our conclusion is that a radio system — clearly not Rurtel — is the best way forward.
Before I ask Deputy Moynihan-Cronin to speak, I note that Eircom has 900 customers using Rurtel.
Mr. Galvin
Yes.
Has Eircom encountered difficulties in any other area?
Mr. Galvin
No. While I cannot say that we have not received individual complaints, they are certainly not of the same scale as those coming from the Black Valley, for good reasons.
Will Mr. Galvin provide this information to the joint committee, with a focus on the areas that also use Rurtel?
Mr. Galvin
Yes.
I thank Mr. Galvin for his report. I will be extremely interested in his answer to the last question asked of him by the Chair because I do not believe other communities are like the Black Valley. They were the last in the country to get electricity and will be the last to get telephone lines. We need to see progress. The community representatives have not heard anything new today as the thrust of Mr. Galvin's submission was already known to the community, on foot of representations made by various public representatives.
I have read Eircom's submission to the joint committee and the system cannot be upgraded because it is not viable. That is the first point. I understand that while under its universal service obligation, Eircom is obliged to provide €7,000 per household for the service, it spends €30,000, or 10% of its public service obligation, which leaves a shortfall of €6,500 per household. If we are to secure a telephone service for the Black Valley, from where will that money come? The joint committee should examine whether it is viable, as a once-off measure, for the Government to provide €6,500 per household. While I do not know if it will do so, obviously Eircom will not spend that kind of money.
If we are to secure a service for the people, I propose that Eircom should pay its public service obligation and perhaps as a once-off, the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources should provide the €6,500 per household. It would cost €300,000, which, in the grand scheme of things, is a small amount. If this was possible, would Eircom agree to such a proposal? Obviously, for this to be successful, there would be much work to be done by this committee and others. Would this proposal be acceptable to Eircom?
Mr. Galvin
While Eircom is happy to consider any recommendations made by this joint committee, I cannot personally agree to them today. Clearly, I would need to have further discussions, but we wish to be as constructive as possible. I raised a technical issue about the universal service obligation. There is an important issue for companies like Eircom as to where their obligations are bounded. In the event that a universal service obligation regime is the way forward here, Eircom will meet its requirements in that respect.
I wish to make one more comment and to explain the different issues with which Eircom must deal to the committee. For example, if we invest half a million euro in a fixed wire service, and a mobile antenna is then allowed in the valley on appeal, the reality for Eircom — as it is in every community in which we invest in technical infrastructure — is that it is likely those telephone lines will be little used, because mobile telephones will be used instead. I ask the committee members to understand the economics of running a business like a utility network. We must take all these issues into account when we make recommendations on investment. I ask the committee members to consider the issues we must take into account, which make for difficult decisions. However, as I stated, whatever factors we take into account, our commitment to the Black Valley and to rural Ireland in general is proven. We will not be found wanting as far as this specific issue is concerned.
Surely all this technology has been available for the past 15 or 20 years. The wireless telephony has been available for quite a long time. It is possible to speak to a man or woman in space. Twenty years ago, one could speak, as I did, from various parts of the country which never had telephone wire, when the old analog system for mobile telephones was first introduced. A lot of water has passed under the bridge and flowed down the Black Valley since that technology was first introduced. This is not a new situation which has only been apparent in the past year or five years ago but it has been going on for quite a long time.
There is both a public service and a health and safety obligation. The health and safety obligation relates to the area about and beyond the Black Valley which may have a requirement for an emergency service which at least if it was provided, the service provider could say it had done its job. I hope this situation is being taken seriously because the people of the Black Valley have been enduring it for a long time and wondering why the obsolete technology has been left there for so long. As Deputy Moynihan-Cronin has said, it is difficult to receive a lot of services there, including radio.
I remember when electricity came to rural Ireland and that is a long time ago. I believe the intention was to provide the services to the broad population on the basis of the capital outlay initially envisaged. If an attempt is made to take out pockets because it would cost too much to provide a supply, that is a repetition of the old story of what happened with the group water schemes. I am disappointed the response has been belated, at best.
How often must the batteries be replaced?
That box looked like it had not been touched for about 15 years.
It is a very primitive system.
I commend the Chairman for a valuable meeting. Is the delegation awaiting the outcome of the O2 application? I presume no action will be taken in the interim. Is the situation regarding the other 900 families and the islands similar? What happens in the case of the islands and other remote areas? Is there no possibility of going to the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, or the Minister for Community, Gaeltacht and Rural Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív, to ask whether there is some financial mechanism to allow this service be delivered as soon as possible? As my colleague said, this situation must be changed in the next few weeks, if possible.
Mr. Galvin is presiding over an inferior service to the people of the Black Valley. I wish to send out a strong signal from this committee to the planners in Kerry County Council. They will have to treat the people of the Black Valley the same as the people in Tralee, Listowel or Kenmare or any other part of County Kerry. The people of the Black Valley are entitled to a mobile phone service and to a proper telephone service. I thank Mr. Galvin for spending €30,000 but that sum will not give the people of the Black Valley a service the same as that provided to people in Howth or Raheny or any other part of Dublin or indeed in any other part of Killarney or County Kerry. I contend the people of the Black Valley should not given an inferior service compared with that provided to everyone else in the land. I wish to make this crystal clear to Mr. Galvin and to Ms O'Malley. I am pleased they are here to discuss this matter with the committee.
However, when they leave this meeting, the members of the delegation from the Black Valley must travel 240 miles home to an inferior service compared to other parts of Ireland. As I stated, I am grateful to the delegation and members for the efforts they have made today. An inferior service is not good enough for the people of the Black Valley. We must provide them with the service available elsewhere and, if necessary, help raise the €650,000 needed to construct a land line.
Mr. Galvin mentioned the need to obtain planning permission from Kerry County Council. Given that every other household in County Kerry has access to a land line, planners should be informed at an early date that permission must be given for a similar network in the Black Valley. The county council cannot be selective in approving planning applications for telecommunications services or deprive people of such services using planning law.
While I do not wish to wrong Mr. Galvin, I appeal to him to send the delegation home with a commitment that Eircom will provide the same services for the Black Valley as it provides for every other part of Ireland. The people of the area are entitled to the same service as everyone else and seek no more or less than their entitlements. They have a right to be able to use a telephone in their homes but frequently do not get a signal. Who should one call if someone falls while climbing Carrauntuohill? One must hope someone else in the party has a mobile phone because it is possible that no telephones in the Black Valley will work. It is unsatisfactory that the community of the valley has an inferior service.
Mr. Galvin
Eircom does not want any of its customers to suffer from a deficient service. If we could solve the problem immediately, we would do so but, as I tried to explain, this is not easy. It could be solved quickly and everybody in the Black Valley could have a top class, digital based telephony service if O2 had obtained planning permission for its mast and built quickly in the valley. In terms of immediate commitments, this is the only way in which the Black Valley can secure an immediate, short-term solution to public telephony. As we know, cellular services, particularly GSM and emerging 3G services on mobile telephony, are top class, high quality and in some cases available in areas where much more expensive fixed wires and poles cannot be constructed as quickly or efficiently. These services, therefore, provide a short-term solution. As I stated, Eircom is re-entering the mobile phone market and if it receives approval to do so from the Competition Authority, I give a commitment that one of the issues the company will immediately address is the use of cellular services to solve the problem in the Black Valley. We cannot do this yet for technical reasons as Eircom does not have a cellular licence but that is my commitment.
On the wider issue raised by Deputy Broughan, I have tried to explain that in any utility network industry fringes of the network are problematic. The same issues arise in Scotland, Northern Ireland, southern France and elsewhere. The universal service obligation must in some way be reasonably bounded. Otherwise, companies such as Eircom, France Telecom or British Telecom could not invest in remote areas. There must be geographic averaging of prices and companies must be allowed to recover the real cost throughout the customer base. That is what Eircom does. We must also protect ourselves against——
If we compare Ireland with European Union partners such as Austria and Switzerland, one can be virtually certain that none of those living in the numerous Black Valley equivalents is off-line or without a telephone service. If telephone services are available throughout Austria and Switzerland, why can they not be universally available here?
Mr. Galvin
My understanding is that the vast majority of solutions to these problems in the countries in question are cellular. Even in countries such as Finland, as well as northern Sweden, which have sparse populations, almost all the solutions are cellular. The reality of the technology is that constructing expensive poles, wires and new exchanges in remote rural areas is not the direction in which the industry is moving. It is moving instead towards radio solutions because, from first principles, this is the most efficient and cheapest option.
As already stated, as radio technology improves, not only the Black Valley but many rural parts of the EU market will be served by high-quality digital radio. The specific circumstances of the Black Valley, where there has been a failure to have line-of-sight radio, are a problem. As Deputy Healy-Rae requested, I can commit Eircom to take very seriously any recommendation the committee makes. We will have further discussions with ComReg, which, understandably, did not send us a copy of its advice to the committee. We will see that later. I must read it in detail and have discussions with ComReg.
It is just a briefing note. It does not contain anything scientific. We simply wish to be informed.
Mr. Galvin
Sure.
While the committee will make its views known, it is very much incumbent on Mr. Galvin to contact to us again, at an early date within the coming months, to indicate the action that will be taken. When might he be in a position to do so?
We will have two or three more questions and then conclude.
When will Eircom communicate further with the committee?
With respect, several good proposals and recommendations have been made by both sides. I thank Mr. Galvin for the proposal to upgrade the copper wire and battery system immediately. That is a short-term solution until we can devise a technical one to serve the Black Valley. As a committee, we must consider what has been said today. In conjunction with our consultants and in terms of the new broadband report we are preparing, we can quickly produce several recommendations in this regard. In my opinion, we should do that in private session to give ourselves time to consider what has been said.
It is heartening to hear Mr. Galvin's commitment on behalf of Eircom to a cellular system, if allowed. As the Chairman said, we all understand and appreciate that the current system is primitive and totally deficient. As I said at the outset, I have every confidence that the committee will address all those issues satisfactorily and come forward with its own unanimous recommendations, which one hopes will be acted on. Perhaps we Oireachtas Members from Kerry, in view of the decision of which Mr. Kissane informed us, might want an urgent meeting with the county manager. I propose that we arrange one on that issue. I have every faith in the Chairman and the committee, having seen them in action on other issues. He has said that it will address all those matters and come forward with its own recommendations.
Those of us on the ICT committee have a great deal of experience in this regard. How is electricity conveyed into the Black Valley? Perhaps Mr. Kissane might rejoin the discussion. How is electricity brought to his house at present?
Mr. Kissane
The electricity system was introduced in 1970.
Is it provided via wires?
Mr. Kissane
Poles and wires.
There is one set of poles coming into the Black Valley.
Mr. Kissane
That is correct.
Is that helpful, Mr. Galvin? Does Eircom have any arrangements with the ESB to carry wires along its network?
Mr. Galvin
I cannot speak with great authority but my general understanding is that there are technological problems in having telecommunications and electricity on the same infrastructure.
Will Mr. Galvin examine the position?
Mr. Galvin
Yes.
If there were a possibility of carrying the wires on the same network, it would solve a great many problems. How much does Eircom charge residents for calls made and line rental?
Mr. Kissane
We pay for line rental and telephone calls under the same terms and conditions as everyone else.
The line rental is the same. If, therefore, it is deficient or not up to the required standard——
Mr. Kissane
We still pay. If one does not do so, Eircom will disconnect the telephone.
Is there any technological reason that a wire cannot be carried on an electricity pole?
I am happy to be corrected on this but I contacted the ESB in recent days and was informed that it has a telecommunications network alongside high-tension cables. It is obviously feasible, therefore, to run the wires alongside each other.
We will examine that matter. Is Mr. Galvin aware that line of sight is not necessary for data packing and voice over IP and that there can be different configurations. Does that apply to voice telephony?
Mr. Galvin
I will be obliged to consult on that internally.
We know from when we met ESB that its fibre optic loop of eight is wrapped around high tension cable.
That is heavier cable.
Another possible solution is to give the Black Valley the best by using a fibre optic solution. There is a security issue with wireless, so we might start by giving these people the best communications in the country.
Is the problem for Eircom that the revenue generated will not justify the expenditure, is it a technical problem or is it a combination of the two?
Cost is the problem. The committee will use this as a case study to see what services can be brought to the Black Valley because there are 900 other customers in the country. I would like Mr. Galvin to e-mail information relating to those areas to the committee and also, in the interests of making our work easier, contact details for the different communities involved. The solution may be national rather than local and it might be easier for the committee to recommend a national solution.
Mr. Galvin
It is easy to say that Eircom will not spend the money. Eircom must, however, consider efficient investment, an issue we are obliged to take into account by the regulator when we make decisions. If we invest a great deal of money — something, for which, customers ultimately pay — in obsolete technology such as poles and wires when we are three months from a cellular solution, it is inefficient.
I do not accept that. If Eircom is a universal service provider, it must provide the good with the bad and offer a service throughout the State. I understand the legal obligations but the committee is of the view that Eircom has a moral obligation to provide the service if it is deficient. We must tease these questions out ourselves.
Mr. Galvin has been very helpful. He is taking an important first step, replacing the batteries and copper wire, and I accept that other emerging technologies may be more suitable than those we have considered. We will examine the matter further. Will Mr. Galvin consider other technologies in the next three months before we revisit telecommunications in January or February, when we will launch our own broadband report? Deputy Broughan has produced a report on broadband for the Labour Party and I hope he will let the committee see it. It is a good document and it is obvious his work with the committee has paid off. Will Mr. Galvin look at alternative technologies that could be provided in the Black Valley and other areas throughout the country?
Mr. Galvin
We have made that commitment and will see it through. In addition, let us be clear that we can meet our universal service obligation using a cellular service. The universal service obligation is not just about poles and wires, it is a viable telephone service and we are entitled to choose an alternative technology. That is another reason we should do exactly as the committee asks.
Eircom could have used a cellular service ten years ago.
We must move on. I thank Mr.Galvin for appearing before the committee and for the commitment he has made to consider alternative technologies. We will see him again in January. In the meantime, the committee will examine different technologies that could be used for the Black Valley and other areas with a view to discovering how best the Government can play its part in providing a first-class telecommunications system for the 21st century.
I thank the Chairman for facilitating my request to attend this meeting along with my constituency colleagues and other members. I appreciate the contributions of the Black Valley Community Group and Eircom. This was a valuable discussion and I look forward to the committee's report. I support the Chairman's suggestion that the Black Valley be used as a case study which may benefit others.
I thank Deputy Healy-Rae and Senator Coghlan for their contributions.
Sitting suspended at 3.30 p.m. and resumed at 3.40 p.m.