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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, MARINE AND NATURAL RESOURCES debate -
Wednesday, 13 Dec 2006

Total Allowable Catches and Fish Quotas: Presentations.

The committee is back in public session for the annual review of the 2007 total allowable catches, TACs, and national quotas with the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, the Marine Institute and Mr. Lorcan Ó Cinnéide of the Federation of Irish Fishermen. I welcome Dr. Paul Connolly from the Marine Institute and, as always, it will be a pleasure to hear his scientific advice. We will hear from Dr. Connolly, Dr. Cecil Beamish, Assistant Secretary General at the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, and Mr. Ó Cinnéide in that order. We will hear the three presentations and then open the floor to questions in the usual manner if the members find this agreeable.

Before I ask Dr. Connolly to begin, I wish to advise everyone that we will receive a short presentation which will be followed by a question and answer session. I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee enjoy absolute privilege, such privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee which cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Furthermore, under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable

Dr. Connolly knows the procedure, so I request that he give us a short overview of his presentation as committee members have other business to attend to in the Houses and a number of Bills need the attention of Opposition members.

Bearing that in mind — I believe members have a list of TACs and quotas for 2007 — I will flick through some slides and make my presentation as short as possible. I propose to speak about fisheries science services and the stock book which has the latest scientific advice. I will then discuss the fisheries resource, trends in international landings and how the TACs will look next year. I think it is important we examine this subject in a holistic way, without focusing entirely on TACs, because there are other significant issues.

Fisheries science services is a science group within the Marine Institute that works with data from the fisheries resource and produces three types of product. We assess how many fish there are, we research where they spawn and we give advice which goes to the Department and the EU and forms the basis of the TACs. The product we produce is the stock book which contains the latest scientific advise for stocks of interest to Ireland.

Regarding the fisheries resource, the waters around Ireland are some of the most productive in Europe and in 2004, 680,000 tonnes of fish, worth €500 million, were taken out of the Irish European economic zone, EEZ. There is a great deal of fishing activity in these waters and many different fleets from Ireland, the UK, France and Spain operate in the Irish EEZ.

It is important that we focus on trends in stocks, such as small pelagics where the trend in international landings has been downward in recent years. The trend in international landings of demersal is also downward but catches of shellfish are increasing. There was a huge peak in recent years in catches of deep water species followed by a collapse in stock. There has been an increase in industrial fishing and a decrease in the number of sharks caught.

One of the images the members are being shown shows a pristine ocean with plenty of sharks, large species and small species with an undisturbed ocean bed. The other image shows the extreme opposite and we are somewhere in the middle of these projections. The challenge for scientists, industry and managers is to keep our waters more like the image of a pristine ocean.

The year 2000 brought a wake-up call regarding the Irish Sea cod stock. Stocks have been falling since the 1970s, are well below a safe level now and are still decreasing. In recent times west of Scotland cod, Irish Sea cod and Celtic Sea cod have shown a serious decline and this is what will drive fisheries management and stock recovery into the future.

Rather than focus on individual TACs I have plotted the TACs for cod where there has been a dramatic decline since 2000 due to cod recovery measures. There has also been a decline over time in TACs relating to white fish. It is important to remember that the bulk of Irish quotas come from these stocks and that we have high percentages of the TACs in these stocks.

It is not all bad news as trends in prawns have been relatively stable and there have been recent increases. We have small shares of the quota in hake, monk and megrim, but they are extremely valuable fish. Recent trends show figures in this regard have been quite stable, they had been in decline, but have risen. However, it is most important that we scrutinise long-term trends, which are downward.

Scientific advice on fish stock does not relate solely to annual TACs. There are many issues around TACs that must be dealt with collectively if these problems are to be resolved. We must discuss rebuilding stocks and reducing fishing mortality. We must match our fleet capacity to the resource, reduce discarding, protect sensitive habitats, reduce the impact of trawling, improve data for scientific advice and increase the transparency of that advice so everyone can see how it has been formulated. It is important that we work with stakeholders, particularly the regional advisory councils, industry and non-governmental organisations, NGOs. We must develop management plans for all of our stocks.

It is important to examine the fisheries resource, but it is equally important to study the chain around it, from ocean and eco-system health to the products we sell in supermarkets. Science has, traditionally, dealt only with the fisheries resource and the TACs and we must now address the broader spectrum.

I have tried to briefly summarise issues relating to the ocean eco-system and the fisheries resource. Scientists have proposed solutions and research relating to the alleviation of these problems but I will not go through this area in detail. We have identified the issues in each part of the chain and have proposed solutions using science that can help in this process.

There are problems with the fisheries resource, TACs are going up and down, there are good news and bad news stories and there are no easy solutions. However, trends over time are downward. There is a movement from fisheries management to a holistic management of the ocean which encompasses all of its users. Above all, science, managers and industry must work together to solve these problems.

That presentation will be e-mailed to every member after this meeting as it was not available in time.

Dr. Cecil Beamish

We very much appreciate this opportunity to have a discussion on the December Council and the related issues. It is an important event, in terms of fisheries and the marine sector, that takes place every year. The regulation being dealt with by the Council is an enormous 250-page volume which changes substantially every year. It has grown over the years from a relatively straightforward instrument to something that is much more complex. The regulation initially set out to determine the annual outtake from each fishery and set down the total allowable catch and quota for each member state. It has grown, especially since the 2002 reform, to govern a variety of other issues, including the types of fishing gear that can be used, the amount of time fishermen can spend at sea and other fishing activity conditions. It is now the primary instrument for managing European fisheries.

We arrived at this proposal through a process that was quite truncated in time. The scientific evidence tends to come to light in October or early November and the Marine Institute compiles a compendium of the scientific advice for the Council meeting. We need to take this on board and then consult our industry stakeholders to form a national position. There are two types of issues at Council meetings, the traditional total allowable catch and quota issues, and key issues on other annexes and measures.

In many respects, the latter group is now as important as the total allowable catch and quotas. We have quotas of approximately 200,000 tonnes annually. As Dr. Connolly said, the quota goes up for some stocks and down for others. The general trend has been downward, but it has not been a straight trajectory and there is always variance between stocks. One of the methods used is that the share has been a fixed entity from the early days of the Common Fisheries Policy, CFP, known as the principle of relative stability. The share is set and, by and large, is not for discussion at the Council. Other than where new stocks are being created and relative stability is being created for the first time, the principle of relative stability is reviewed during the ten year reviews.

Ireland has used a system called the Hague preferences over the years. This was put in place in 1976 so that when fish stocks fell to certain levels, Ireland was allowed a slightly bigger share of the reduced stock where the stock was of particular interest to Ireland and northern Britain. This system, which is referred to in the basic CFP regulations, is delivered annually through negotiations in Council. It is not a straightforward legal entitlement and must be bargained for each year. As fish stocks fall to lower levels, it is becoming more difficult to have this delivered; if Ireland gets a slightly bigger share, it must be paid by another country. In some of these fisheries, one or other member state is the big loser in these circumstances. Although it will be under threat, it is a priority this year. If it is not delivered in every case, we will see a more significant reduction on the quota. We are quite alone in negotiating for this. Britain used to have a lot of interest in it, but that has waned. It is usually Ireland negotiating against all the other member states that, by and large, lose out under the system.

The issue of deep water gill nets was raised at last year's meeting and will be on the agenda again this year. On foot of a report carried out by BIM and other agencies, the so-called deep net report, it was possible to have an emergency deep water gill net ban introduced last year. That was an emergency measure and the Commission has proposals for less comprehensive measures. However, other member states want to reduce it further and the Commission is under pressure to retain the proposal that is currently on the table. That will be an important issue.

As well as the outtake from the fisheries, the number of days fishermen can be at sea is becoming an equally important regulatory factor. The Commission's proposal would cut the days at sea by 25% in many fisheries. This also carries over from initiatives being taken in the North Sea. That is an issue of concern for Ireland, particularly in fisheries where the target stock is healthy and where the justifications relate to by catch stock.

Right-sizing the fleet has become one of the main instruments for managing fisheries and putting them on a sustainable basis. This involves decommissioning some vessels to allow for a fleet to operate in balance with the resources and be viable and profitable on the basis of a sustainable catch. One of the elements secured in the negotiations on the European fisheries fund was that there would be a minimal reward where a member state decommissioned ships; a small percentage of that would be returned and could be redistributed at the state's discretion. The Commission has proposed that this would be granted where decommissioning schemes are funded without public aid. That is a concern for Ireland because we do not see how substantial decommissioning can be delivered without public aid. However, we see the logic to providing an attraction, or dividend, for decommissioning. We will be seeking to remove the limitation that it is only delivered if no public aid is involved.

Experimental fisheries carried out by fleets from other member states in the Irish zone became an issue during the year. The coastal member state is simply notified under the regulations and does not have a right of approval or veto. Ireland has sought that this be examined with a view to giving the coastal member state a much greater say. It is not clear that the Commission will deliver that in this Council.

Is that part of the CFP?

Dr. Beamish

Experimental fisheries have always been part of the CFP. It is part of the scientific process as well as everything else. There is always a debate about whether everyone accepts the bona fides of all experimental fisheries.

Can you give us an example of experimental fisheries?

Dr. Beamish

Normally, if it is carried out on a research vessel with scientists on board, everyone can understand the programme that is being done. However, some countries use commercial vessels to carry out the experimental fisheries. There is a process where the Commission and the member state are notified. Ireland has taken exception — rightly so — to self-described experimental fisheries which are using smaller than minimum mesh size, particularly where they are dealing with recovery stocks which are already under pressure. We have never seen the justification for that. However, the coastal state does not have a veto under the existing regulations and Ireland has sought to change this. That will remain an issue at the Council meeting.

The weighing of pelagic species is another issue. The previous methods of determining the catch and landings of pelagic species, which are landed in large volumes, became quite discredited as an accurate means of measurement some years ago and the Commission introduced a new system for weighing the pelagic fish. As it currently stands, landings that are taken to a factory within 100 km of the port of landing can be weighed in the factory. Factories more than 100 km from the port of landing cannot weigh the catch and they strongly argue that they are not able to compete with factories within the zone. If most of their landings happen more than 100 km away, they are unable to compete for fish resources. That issue will arise at the Council and is one about which the United Kingdom, to some extent, has concerns. In doing that, we want to ensure that a valid and effective control system remains in place for the weighing of the landings.

On the recovery of Irish Sea cod, the Irish industry and the Northern Ireland industry organisations have done much work jointly with the United Kingdom and Irish authorities to examine ways of reviewing and improving the assessment of the Irish Sea cod and in taking forward the recovery programme. We are trying to ensure that proposal is reflected at the Council.

That is an outline of the range of issues outside the standard tacking quota issues, which are on the table at the Council. It is a very large regulation. There are more issues involved but I have outlined the key ones from an Irish perspective.

In terms of the tacking quotas, members will see that regarding the herring stock in 6A South, which is the area north of Donegal, there is a proposal for a 27% reduction. Regarding the Celtic Sea herring in area 7G, H, J, K, along the south coast, there is a proposal for a 35% reduction on those herring stocks. The issue in that regard is the extent to which those reductions are justified or whether alternative ways can be found of addressing the scientific concerns about those stocks.

There is a general concern about cod stocks throughout the Union, something of which everybody is aware. Reductions are proposed in the cod stocks. There are particular concerns also about the proposal for a 35% reduction in the Celtic Sea cod stocks. If that was not delivered, and members should note the Hague Preference, it would provide a 55% reduction in that quota. The issue that arises is that scientists have concerns about the Celtic Sea cod. Some measures were introduced a few years ago, including a number of conservation boxes. The industry would be concerned to give those time to have a positive effect and to evaluate them but that stock is a key issue of concern.

Regarding some of the monkfish, the angler fish, we have a slight increase in the position. That is an important stock for Ireland. We have a 15% reduction on our haddock stock, which has become an important stock for Ireland. The science on haddock is not clear and we will have to examine that one more closely.

There has been a significant reduction in the whiting stock off the north west of Donegal. We are closely examining the scientific assessment. The situation in the Irish Sea is slightly different in that we are dealing with a problem of a stock which gets caught as a by-catch in other fisheries rather than being a target fishery. We are not sure that quota reductions are the way to bring about a stock recovery. It has more to do with technical measures and avoidance of the by-catch.

There is an issue about the blue whiting. It is an industrial fishery which may become a human consumption fishery for the pelagic fleet. It was regulated last year in terms of an allocated quota and it also involves a significant transfer of blue whiting from the European Union to Norway. Those negotiations have taken place. We had sought a reduction in the transfer to Norway, and that was secured, but it means that in taking account of the overall scientific advice there is a reduction in the quota for blue whiting.

The other stocks, the Norway lobster, the prawns, are an important stock for Ireland. It appears to be a stable stock but on the other hand issues arise on the days at sea in regard to the prawn fishery. Regarding the plaice stocks, we have very small shares in many of those stocks. Even when the reductions happen, therefore, as members will see the quotas will be very small.

We have an increase on the mackerel quota this year but we must factor in the legacy issues that will have to be worked through early in the new year regarding mackerel overfishing in the past. The sole stock in the Irish Sea is of interest to Irish fishermen but the science on that is worrying and we will have to balance the interests. The horse mackerel fisheries are important for the pelagic fishermen. The Commission is proposing a reduction whereas the industry is proposing to try to develop a management plan in 2007 for the horse mackerel fishery.

On the other fisheries, the negotiations on the herring in areas 1 and 2, which is off Norway, will be going in parallel with the Council meeting next week. The tuna fishery is negotiated through a body called the International Commission for the Conservation of Atlantic Tunas but that is a relatively stable quota level. The difficulties in that regard are the fishability of the quota.

Thank you, Dr. Beamish. We will now hear from Mr. Ó Cinnéide. I welcome the fact that all your organisations have come under one umbrella as the Federation of Irish Fishermen. We wish all your members every success in the future.

Mr. Lorcan Ó Cinnéide

I thank the Chairman for those kind words. I am happy to report that we have established a federation of Irish fishermen, which represents 90% of the vessels in the fleet over 12 metres. That is a significant first step in what we hope will be a progressive process of jointly expressing our interests. I appreciate the confidence placed in me to represent the views of members from the north, south, east and west at this meeting. I thank the Chairman for the invitation.

I will refer to a number of comments made. Dr. Beamish in particular gave the committee a comprehensive and useful framework for examining the challenges facing us in the talks next week. I am conscious of time but I will outline a number of measures that happened this year.

The first is the advent of the regional advisory councils, which involve industries from different countries along with environmental organisations and other stakeholders, considering what should be done about the conservation and management of stocks. We are participants in two of those regional advisory councils, one to do with pelagic species and the other to do with the north western waters, which effectively covers the Irish territorial waters of interest to us.

It is worth noting that the process by which the regional advisory councils work, which is to produce advice for the Commission and in the decision making process, has not been incorporated into the Commission's opening proposals for logistical reasons. The value of the work done during the year will be carefully examined by the industry and the NGOs involved in those groups to determine the degree to which they are taken into account in the forthcoming talks.

The second area I would recall to the committee is the question of the use of cod to drive general policy, particularly to do with the Irish Sea but it is extended to other areas also, and a widespread belief in the fishing industry, which is probably shared in other quarters, that the way that issue was tackled in the past did not appear to produce results. The lack of results cannot be laid solely at the door of the industry, as appears to have been done by some people. There may be — I believe there is — a fundamental methodological weakness in the approach being taken to it. To that end, we note the Commission has promised and intends to conduct a full evaluation of the cod recovery programmes in 2007. We, as an industry, have come forward with some valuable proposals, which were mentioned by Dr. Beamish, particularly in regard to the Irish Sea where the assessment is littered with the word "uncertainty". If one notes the stock book or reads the ICES advice, one will note the word "uncertainty" is littered throughout it. I do not argue with the trajectory in regard to cod, but we have major concerns when significant economic decisions with an environmental impact are being taken on the basis of something we believe should not be subject to this degree of uncertainty

We, as an industry, as has been acknowledged, have made a great effort in the past 12 months to develop jointly the UK, Irish and Northern Irish industries in regard to the Irish Sea, working in co-operation with the Marine Institute and departmental officials. It is a model of how we might progress. The kernel of the issue is that it represents an alternative approach, which is not simply based on swingeing cuts in quotas, as being the most useful way of achieving conservation or management objectives. The same principle applies to the cod closed areas off the south east coast. This was an industry initiative, which was accepted and which we believe deserves serious evaluation prior to what we would call draconian additional cuts in quota being made, as the sole solution.

The third area with which I wish to briefly deal, is work in which we have engaged, at the industry's request, on a strategy for our industry. The Government set up a review group to examine the strategy for our industry. We, as an industry, and the organisations that make up the federation, which I represent, submitted 11 submissions to that strategy group and publication of its report is awaited. Part of that work involved a major decommissioning programme, which at that stage we were basing on the available level of quotas, namely, 45% in tonnes, as a means of attempting to align the fleet with the resources available to Ireland, which I believe will be largely successful. We are very much afraid that if the approach being taken by the Commission further undermines that process and if the outcome of the December Council were to reflect anything like what is proposed here, successive quota cuts may be a deterrent to our attempt to ensure everything that is done in this industry is above board, transparent and manageable into the future, and would be counterproductive in many cases.

I will not go into detail in terms of the stocks other than to say there are a number of categories in the proposals, one being proposed cuts in some stocks which are based purely on the fact that they were not taken up this year. There is not a scientific justification for such proposed cuts other than that the stocks were unused this year. Fishing, by its nature, is difficult to predict and plan. Therefore, that approach of simply taking off stocks, on the basis that they were not used, is not supportable.

A second category of stocks is cod stocks or stocks associated with the fishing of cod, as in by-catches which would be in the same basket of fish. I expressed our reservations about the approach to the management of the conservation of cod and I doubly express fears about the bundling in of other stocks. With regard to a comment made by Dr. Connolly, whom I hold in the highest regard, if we are to move towards ocean management as opposed to fisheries management, it behoves us to start getting our fisheries management right and removing some of the uncertainties from it before we take on the universe, so to speak.

There is an increase in a number of stocks, which is welcome. Such increases prove we have not succeeded in fully raping the seas yet, as some people claim we have. There has been a recovery in the hake quota and there are scientifically justified increases in monkfish, which is extremely important commercially. We note the increase in the mackerel quota, which is significant, although the legacy issues, to which Dr. Beamish referred, probably loom large in our immediate future, and the word "legacy" would cover a multitude.

Hake preferences, as was pointed out earlier, is a significant issue, whereby under a rather complicated system Ireland has benefited relatively from share-outs. We view that, effectively, as being a part of the Irish entitlement, notwithstanding and not disagreeing with Dr. Beamish's legal interpretation of it. We view the incorporation of that into the negotiation of quotas as a central and a fundamental issue, which is of critical importance, particularly in regard to our strategy for this country. We share the Department's view on the need to maintain, where possible, the restrictions and proposals on deepwater gillnets — which we consider have done a great deal of damage — which have been largely overturned during the year.

I will comment briefly on the question of experimental fisheries. Experimental scientific fisheries, which would be undertaken by bodies such as the Marine Institute or its international colleagues, are done in a strict and above board manner in which we would have confidence. In the guise of such experimental fisheries, purely commercial interests have engaged in, for example, unannounced so-called experimental fisheries, using reduced size mesh in gillnets off the west coast, which is completely unacceptable, anti-conservation and a move entirely in the wrong direction. That is a misuse of the power that exists and I fully support what Dr. Beamish said about that.

The reduction in days at sea is very much bound up with the seriously questionable approach to cod recovery. It is unlikely that cod stocks can recover, much as we would like them to, under the present set of programmes that are in place and are going to be intensified. More of the inappropriate medicine is unlikely to cure this disease. At this stage five years down the line it might require us to make a further diagnosis of the position and possibly prescribe alternative or other medicine.

The weighing of pelagic species is a technical issue which may be esoteric from the point of view of members but significant, particularly for those involved in the processing industry away from the main centre of pelagic fishing in Ireland, the north west. I am thinking, in particular, of factories in Connacht and the south which must transport fish and for which there are significant operational disadvantages in this rule. We cannot see the logic behind it. If it is okay to weigh fish having travelled 100 km, we cannot see why it is not okay to do so having travelled 200 km. I fully appreciate the need for effective controls and monitoring, but we believe distance is not the appropriate measure. Therefore, I am glad to hear it is a matter the Department will be taking up.

I covered the matter of Irish Sea cod in dealing with the approach to cod recovery. We would be loath to perpetuate the myth that the Federation of Irish Fishermen is against the management and conservation of these resources, as nothing could be further from the truth. We are, however, exasperated at the inappropriateness of some of the more outlandish features of existing cod recovery measures. For example, as a first step, we have a major project planned on the Irish Sea, with scientific and administrative support from the Government, which we appreciate, as well as from environmental NGOs and others at the regional advisory council. We must remove the uncertainty as to what is happening in the Irish Sea. We are prepared to engage in a scientifically vetted and designed programme of assessing discards which is seen as the major issue in order that we can determine what is happening. We see this as a prerequisite. We do not view increasing uncertainty and then invoking the precautionary principle as a means of covering up for it as an effective way to achieve these aims. We hope to build on this approach.

The confidence of fishermen to propose such measures is predicated on the degree to which they are accepted at the Council. We strongly urge that the genuine attempts we are making to grow up as an industry and take our responsibilities more seriously be given due recognition at the Council in order that we can build a platform on which fishermen can gain further confidence. If they are knocked back again by yet another set of seemingly mindless across the board doctrinaire cuts such as those on the table, the federation will see this as being very damaging to a process in which we realise there must be rationalisation and better management of the resource. We are intent on putting our house in order. We await with considerable interest the strategy report. We do not want the ground to be shifted from under the industry while we are taking these steps.

We hope to work with the Minister and officials in Brussels next week as we are largely on similar tracks. We are often at loggerheads but our interests are largely the same. I look forward to this process, while not underestimating the difficulties involved.

I listened to Dr. Connolly on the validity of the science in respect of estimating the level of the by-catch and discards. Is Mr. Ó Cinnéide stating we must reach a position where all fish caught are recorded on land?

Mr. Ó Cinnéide

That would be logistically impossible. What is vital is that we quantify the level. Our main difficulty which is shared by the institute is centred on the degree of uncertainty. Although some would have done so previously, I am not arguing about the trajectory of the stock. Stocks are down, along the lines mentioned by Dr. Connolly. We do not have an understanding of the level of discards because we have not been measuring it and have not devoted enough resources to doing so. That is what our project proposes to remedy through a programme of self-sampling, validated by Marine Institute staff and staff from other countries, to quantify exactly the level of discards. Therefore, we would then be in a position to project both backwards and forwards and state with confidence that stock levels are at X, Y or Z.

We may need, for example, to reduce our efforts or use different fishing gear. We may need to concentrate, seasonally, on different fisheries. These are the lessons we can learn but only if we undertake the analysis. It would be dangerous to allow the degree of uncertainty, a feature of the assessment, particularly in the Irish Sea, to continue. That is why my members and those of the other organisations I represent are prepared to make a serious effort. They see that if we do not get this right and take the matter in hand, we will not have an industry in five years. I would rather have a percentage of the industry survive and be profitable, than to have the baby thrown out with the bath water.

Will Mr. Ó Cinnéide clarify the matter once more? If a fisherman raises his net, sees that the fish size is not correct and discards the fish caught, are they alive or dead when put back into the sea?

Mr. Ó Cinnéide

They are almost invariably dead. There is a need to distinguish. Unfortunately, this is a major feature of some fisheries. The discarding of whitefish, for example, would occur where one was catching a mixture of marketable fish. The juvenile element should obviously be reduced, if one is using the proper mesh size, but that is a matter which has not been properly addressed. In such cases one will take, box and bring home what is marketable and discard the remainder. It is important that there is a proper overall assessment of everything that is killed.

I assume a good percentage of the fish discarded would be reproductive female fish.

Mr. Ó Cinnéide

I would have to bow to those with biological knowledge.

I ask Mr. Ó Cinnéide to give us his advice on the matter.

Mr. Ó Cinnéide

Yes, of course.

I congratulate Mr. Ó Cinnéide on becoming chief executive of the new federation. Is he alarmed by the 2050 report which seems to suggest worldwide stocks are in imminent danger of being wiped out and that within a generation and a half, unless there are significant and drastic changes, there will be no Irish fishing industry? Is he looking ahead? While I understand he must deal with the evidence currently available and that we had painful debates earlier this year, is he concerned that drastic action is necessary between the three partners represented today for there to be a sustainable industry?

Mr. Ó Cinnéide

I was quoted as stating at the time that the likes of the 2050 report represented a wake-up call. It is certainly one that people like me, as well as management and scientists, cannot ignore. However, I also note that it is a desk-based study with considerable limitations owing to the approach adopted. Nonetheless, it focuses the mind.

I agree that major measures are needed to achieve our objective of ensuring sustainable fisheries and the restoration of stocks. I am more particular about the measures. For example, it is simple to flail about in the ocean if one is drowning. It would be better if one had a lifebuoy, the appropriate tool to do the job. We are not at all satisfied at the development to this point of recovery measures. We are always criticised for rejecting the evidence but we reject the diagnosis and the prescription, not the evidence. There are more effective ways to address this and, with the advent of regional advisory councils and other groups, we have an opportunity but we want to avoid having the confidence we are trying to build up among our members that alternatives can work eroded by the application of more of the same.

I congratulate Mr. Ó Cinnéide on his appointment to the Federation of Irish Fishermen. It is good that one voice is representing almost 90% of those involved in the industry. I also welcome the important submission made by Dr. Connolly, Dr. Beamish and Ms Kelly. Dr. Connolly outlined figures while Dr. Beamish and Mr. Ó Cinnéide outlined the partnership approach to dealing with the proposed cuts, which will have a significant impact. It is a pity there is so much uncertainty about the validation of the figures. The new advisory committee is being set up to make sure the figures are correct. The cutbacks will have an impact on the viability of vessel owners who have heavily invested in their business, which was very much encouraged by the State. Dr. Connolly referred to a catch of 680,000 tonnes worth €500 million. In what area was that?

That is our estimate of the total number of fish caught in the Irish economic zone.

But Dr. Connolly said the quota was only 200,000.

That is the Irish quota. The estimate of 680,000 relates to fish caught by all vessels in the zone.

I refer to factory ships, which are not in the Irish jurisdiction, the number of fish they discard and their impact on the development of coastal communities. Very little regulation governs such ships in the Irish Box. The vessel owners could potentially catch 480,000 tonnes or €340 million worth of fish in Irish waters. Two thirds of fish, therefore, are caught by boats from other jurisdictions and I am unhappy about this.

With regard to controls and conservation, there is a great deal of uncertainty about the catches of vessels from other jurisdictions. Perhaps the departmental officials will explain what plans they have to deal with this. Given the proposed reduction in quotas in the Irish Box, what influence can be brought to bear on the Spanish or French authorities? Ireland has a potential catch valued at €170 million and a dramatic cutback in quotas could reduce our earning capacity to €110 million.

The Chairman referred to the working partnership on conservation. The Naval Service was unable to deal comprehensively with experimental fishing, the use of gill nets and so on because of the lack of controls. Are the witnesses concerned about the inability of the State to deal with foreign vessels that take two thirds of the catch in the Irish Box, which disproportionately affects the income of Irish ports? Much of the domestic catch is not even processed in our fish factories and this raises a sustainability issue. Quotas have been reduced significantly with whiting down by 78%; plaice by 20%; sole by 20%; and so on.

Dr. Cawley's report is imminent and I hope it will provide due diligence on the potential in this area. The whitefish fleet comprises 180 vessels of different sizes while the pelagic fleet is considerably smaller. The report will consider the viability and sustainability of the remaining vessels. We must be frank and honest and clearly state the difficulties being experienced by the fishing industry but we must be careful. Despite co-operation between the Marine Institute and vested interests, in a number of cases fishermen have been pilloried unfairly. The majority of fishermen have been in the business for decades and they would like to continue but we are under a major obligation to explain the State's inability to deal with two thirds of the fish caught in the Irish Box being landed at foreign ports with no controls and factory ships discarding fish. That is a concern and it has not been addressed. Dr. Cawley's report must deal with compensation for decommissioned vessels. Adequate funding must be provided for those who leave the industry. According to Dr. Connolly, domestic vessels land 200,000 tonnes of fish with a potential earning of €170 million but the Department has encouraged the owners to invest heavily in them, which is a total contradiction.

We will bank the questions.

I thank Dr. Connolly. His work, the work of his colleagues and their assistance to this committee last year were of fundamental importance. His comments to the members of the committee were very progressive and beneficial in informing the way we regard this issue. His willingness to declare a lack of faith in some of the figures was the cornerstone in many of the developments that took place subsequently last year.

I take great encouragement from the establishment of the new Federation of Irish Fishermen and, in many ways, from comments by Lorcan Ó Cinnéide on its behalf. These comments mirror some of the preceding comments. Mr. Ó Cinnéide's statement that we cannot continue building uncertainty upon uncertainty is exactly right. A very clear, although possibly unexpected, message needs to be sent to Brussels from the Oireachtas and fisheries organisations to the effect that the current system does not work, will never work and must therefore be changed radically. This is for the sake of the fishermen, environment and the long-term future of the country. If one were to take to EU negotiations a statement from this committee, it would be that the very faith in the Union's ability to manage properly our resources is at question. If the Union fails to take radical measures to address this, it will seriously damage the working arrangements of the Union in the eyes of Oireachtas Members.

I have a series of questions in this regard, specifically for Dr. Beamish. One of the concerns expressed over the past year and in the debate on the relevant legislation related to the lack of a proper system of reporting. To echo the concerns expressed by Deputy Perry, the Naval Service does not know the daily catch record of vessels. Two thirds of the vessels operating here are from abroad. In the absence of instantaneous, up-to-date information on catches, landings and quotas, Naval Service personnel, when boarding a vessel, might as well be waving a feather duster, such is their authority. The Naval Service has no powers of implementation in the absence of instantaneous reporting. I would be interested to hear from Dr. Beamish on the progress we have made to achieve live recording of landings. He did not mention this and perhaps the decision thereon will be decided in a separate process to the one featuring at the December Council.

I was interested in Dr. Beamish's descriptions of the Hague conditions, etc. I understood a number of governments were pushing for a fundamental review of the European fisheries system, including a review of reporting procedures. Can we have an update on this?

I agree with Mr. Ó Cinnéide's assessment that rather than considering a restricted quota regime as a management system, which regime is clearly not working, we should be considering his proposal in terms of time arrangements and other flexible arrangements in terms of management. Is a radical review of the system occurring on foot of the Common Fisheries Policy, which review would steer us in the right direction?

To what percentage of the existing fleet, in terms of tonnage, does the decommissioning we arranged over the past two or three years amount? I realise this question just applies to the whitefish fleet.

Dr. Connolly mentioned a number of different issues and I could spend hours discussing them. What effect is climate change having on cod, herring and other stocks? Reference was made to trawling damage. What particular aspects of this must be considered?

Dr. Connolly's comments echo some of the outcomes of the latest scientific reports from elsewhere in that they stipulate ocean management is the only way to go. The EU system does not help us because it is not providing the required ocean management system. Are there developments in this regard?

Dr. Beamish mentioned the legacy issues concerning our mackerel quota. I understood our quota for 2006 had already been reduced on foot of some of the irregularities uncovered in Scotland involving vessels from the Irish fleet. What are the projections in terms of the legacy issues? What is the possible fine or reduction in quota? Has any progress been made in our own investigation in Killybegs? I have not heard anything about it.

I welcome the departmental officials and members of the Federation of Irish Fishermen to the committee.

Will Dr. Connolly state how we can determine that 680,000 tonnes, which pertains to the Irish economic zone, is remotely accurate? Could it be twice or three times as much given what we heard during the sea fisheries debate, Deputy Eamon Ryan's point that the control of the Naval Service over other EU fleets is minimal, if not non-existent, and the amazing revelations about experimental fishing? Significant resources from our seas can be taken away by way of a scam by fleets from other member states. In this regard, consider the testimony of Lorcan Ó Cinnéide, his colleagues from the south and west and the various other fishing groups, including the Killybegs group. The misbehaviour of the other member states' fleets in our waters was very striking. How can one plan the future of our resources if we do not have fundamental information thereon?

On the 2050 report, have we done any modelling based on the past five to ten years to determine the extent of our fishery stocks in 2020 or 2030? We conducted such modelling recently in regard to energy resources. Does Dr. Connolly feel as alarmed as the authors of the 2050 report?

Mr. Ó Cinnéide says the cod policy is being used to drive a misapplied conservation strategy. What have we checked in this regard? Fishermen in Howth, when involved in the establishment of closures in the boxes in the Irish Sea ten or 12 years ago, were themselves very much behind the impetus in this regard. Can the stocks be measured? The proposed changes, excluding the Hague preferences, suggest a catastrophic decline in cod stocks. Perhaps the only cod we will be having in the future will be farmed in Ireland and Scotland.

Will Dr. Beamish state whether the famous stock book is laid before the Dáil, such that we could have a full overview? If not, why not? Do we have copies of it? It sounds like the bible of fishery resources.

On the legacy issues, four skippers were brought before the courts in recent weeks. Is this the only legal action ongoing or pending in respect of the Scottish issue or other issues? The Minister outlined a very gloomy picture. Mr. Stephen Collins and other journalists were writing about it and then for months we heard nothing. Then, suddenly, there are the prosecutions of four people. Is that the extent of it or are there to be further prosecutions?

With regard to Clonakilty and the Sea Fishery Protection Authority, I hope the committee will have the opportunity to meet the people involved in January. How will it work? Is this finally going to be a serious regulator with a serious connection to the Naval Service across the country, and Haulbowline? How will it operate? It is up and running in an industrial estate in Clonakilty. On a related point we are sick asking the Minister about Vigo, and the fact that we have made the poacher the gamekeeper, in that the Spaniards have been put in charge of all this. What is happening with Vigo, and is there a chance we could become the gamekeeper for our own seas? Deputy Perry published his fishery document yesterday and I congratulate him and Fine Gael on that, as it contains so many interesting and worthwhile ideas. Will there be serious protection and invigilation measures?

A number of fishery organisations contacted us when they heard we were having this debate, and I commend the Chair for allowing us to have it, as in the past. This is the last one in this Dáil. The fishermen say that what is coming, down the road, is as nothing in terms of the tax and quota proposals compared to what is contained in the EU Green Paper. What input have we got in this? I agree with my colleague that the common fisheries policy has been a failure as regards stock conservation. However, given that one of the two major political parties in the UK was claiming, if it had won the election — which it did not — it would have renegotiated the CFP, should Ireland be considering this?

Mr. Ó Cinnéide referred to decommissioning, and in this regard mention was made of the white fish and scallop programmes, etc. What type of resources would the federation seek from the next Government to get matters right? Mr. Ó Cinnéide has emphasised that right-sizing the fleet is the key if we are to keep the fishery ports and smaller harbours viable. He talks about alternative medicine for cod. Given cod is such a great fish, we are all dismayed that, like salmon, it is in catastrophic decline.

Like my colleagues, I agree that Dr. Connolly and Dr. Beamish have educated us as regards these matters over the last few years, and we are very grateful. We were amazed to see the age of cod and some of the fish. Deputy Eamon Ryan spoke about this last year when he referred to the newer species people were looking at, such as the orange ruffie, which was alive at the time of Napoleon. The fact one could be eating a 20 year old cod, or maybe not—

Ruffie live to be 130 years, I believe. Will Dr. Connolly say if that is correct?

It can live to 180, equivalent to three lifetimes.

It reaches sexual maturity at 40.

We could learn from these orange ruffie. With regard to alternative medicine, what medicine does Dr. Beamish see being developed, given that cod is such a great fish?

I commend everybody for such a good debate. I hope we reach the stage when we have this type of debate on the floor of the House, where everybody gets involved.

It is great to see the three witnesses, including Ms Kelly, in agreement. That does not mean they are on the one side all the time. I shall put one question to Dr. Beamish and then we shall take the responses. The three witnesses are aware of the questions that have been put to them.

During the salmon debate here, on which the committee did considerable work, the Government was being constantly urged by the EU to align the catch with the scientific advice. This was in regard to the salmon species. Can Dr. Beamish envisage the EU taking the same medicine and aligning the TACs with the science?

Dr. Beamish

Does the Chairman want me to work through all the questions in one go?

Yes. Keep the Chairman sweet, anyway.

Dr. Beamish

Of course. The object of the common fisheries policy, as set out in the basic regulations is to achieve and maintain sustainable fisheries. That is the stated goal in terms of the policy and clearly it is not easily achievable, as we can all testify. If fisheries science was absolutely black and white and there was perfect knowledge as regards every stock, out-take, reproduction, maturity and everything else, it would be a very simple issue because the managers could practically go home and let the scientists effectively determine the total allowable catches, etc. However, it is always a mix of elements and there is always a degree of uncertainty, and it varies from species to species.

It varies on the quality of the enforcement and the catch data that are available to the scientists, the quality of the assessments, knowledge of biology and many other factors. In general, however, the total allowable catches over the years have been getting much closer to the scientific recommendations. The variations between the two aspects are getting smaller. The debate ten years ago was to the effect that data was being politically adjusted all the time, to be wildly different to the scientific advice. That is happening less and less.

The scientific advice is never perfect. It can be very serious and with a high degree of certainty or it can be very uncertain, depending on species. There are many species and more work is done on some than on others, with corresponding degrees of certainty. My experience over the years is that where the science has been very serious and deemed to be reliable, Ministers have tended to believe it and have accepted the reductions. Generally the norms are becoming closer to the scientific advice, there is agreement on harvest rules and matters are moving to an area where science is the primary determinant of the level of out-take.

Deputy Perry posed some questions. There is a great danger of confusion and arriving at conclusions which do not stand up to analysis in terms of what Irish or other vessels are doing, what is happening in the Irish area, other areas, etc. I do not believe Dr. Connolly was referring to the Irish Box, but rather the Irish exclusive fishery zone, which is the area patrolled by Ireland. They are quite different matters, on the map and in other regards. The Irish Box is a biologically sensitive area where there is agreement on maximum levels of fishing effort.

With regard to the Irish fishery zone, we must remember the Irish fleet does not do all its fishing there. Perhaps a third of the Irish catches come from outside the fishery zone. We must remember that many of the non-Irish vessels which fish in the Irish fishery zone land in Ireland, so matters are not as straightforward a scenario as is sometimes painted. Historically, non-Irish vessels have been fishing in those areas, in some cases, for 300 or 400 years. Experience shows there have always been vessels in those waters from many countries and there is a long history in that regard.

We also used to have slave traders and other such characters coming to visit us.

Dr. Beamish

Fisheries is highly international and does not easily break down around particular borders. In terms of control, which I understand to be Deputy Perry's point, something like 52% of the Naval Service's boardings this year were on non-Irish vessels, according to the latest figures I have. It always strives to be non-discriminatory in terms of boardings. Many changes are occurring as regards the fisheries monitoring and control agenda, as raised by some Deputies. The electronic log book, which was mentioned, was agreed in Council in November, a very significant event in terms of fisheries and it got very little publicity at the time.

That has not yet come into effect.

Dr. Beamish

It has not. My colleague can give the Deputy details on that, if she can recall them.

When does that come into effect?

The EU will introduce the detailed rules and the electronic logbook will come into effect two years after their introduction. It is quite a complex and difficult issue, which cannot be turned around in a matter of months. Much work and planning is involved.

Will it come into effect in 2010?

It will come into effect two years after the introduction of the detailed rules. The Commission has assured us it will introduce the detailed rules very soon. We pressed it strongly on that issue.

Does it apply to all vessels? What does it record?

The first batch dealt with will be the larger vessels and it will then be applied to vessels over 15 m. It will record the information set out in the European logbook, such as the area fished, the fish caught and additional requirements in terms of the effort and the type of gear used.

The Minister worked very strenuously to deliver real-time reporting to the coastal member states, which is a critical issue for him. He has received the necessary assurances from the Commission that it will work to deliver immediate real-time information to the coastal states. We will work on the detailed rules with the Commission to deliver on that.

Will we have real-time knowledge of the quotas available to foreign vessels?

The information on the availability of quotas is a separate issue. The Minister will be working with other member states to develop that area.

That was the problem we had with some member states, such as the Netherlands. Quotas were so split up among co-operative groups it was impossible to track them.

It is no good knowing what the catch is unless one knows the quota to which it relates.

The intention is that the information will be made available to the coastal member state and the flag member state, that there will be a level of visibility which has not existed in the past, and that there will be a focus on ensuring the rules in place are fully respected. The really difficult issue is in regard to the recording of catches. The electronic logbook will be a substantial tool in ensuring that the amount caught and landed is fully recorded.

Thank you, Ms Kelly.

Dr. Beamish

To finish with regard to the logbook, in the event that the electronic logbook is operating, the Naval Service, for example, will have full information on what a vessel is recording before a decision is made to board it. Therefore, the Naval Service will have a record of what a vessel operating in our zone is recording at any given time, and will be able to check that, so the operators of the vessel will be in jeopardy if they are not doing exactly as they claim.

Deputy Broughan asked about the stock book. The stock book is an open resource. We regard the science as something we share fully with the industry and with any other interested stakeholder. The Marine Institute makes the science freely available on its website — I am sure it will be willing to make it available to members of the committee. The general policy we have always operated within the Marine Institute is to make the science as widely available as possible so we can have a science-based debate. Much of the science is a compendium of the international science which is also freely available. It just happens to pull together the issues which are of particular interest to Ireland.

The other point with regard to reporting systems is that the European agency has begun to recruit its staff and set out its work programmes. It is based in Brussels for the present, while it awaits the establishment of its offices in Vigo. It is not a Spanish agency, although it happens to be based in Spain. Characterising it as a Spanish agency might be stretching the scenario. Each member state has membership on the administrative board of the agency, and the programmes are agreed in that framework. It is still an emerging entity and is not, at this point, having a dramatic impact on the ground. Nationally, the establishment of the sea fisheries protection authority is set for 1 January. That will also be a body which will grow in terms of its capacities and capabilities—

What will its role be this time next year?

Dr. Beamish

Its role is set down in the Act passed by the Oireachtas.

Will it be involved in issues such as tax, quotas and so on?

Dr. Beamish

Its role is set down clearly in the statute. It is one of the agencies that works with the Department in terms of the implementation of the law. It will continue to be the monitoring agency with regard to catches and data, and will continue to provide the range of services that are currently provided by the Department's sea fishery control division. It is an agency that will grow throughout 2007.

Everybody accepts one of the most critical elements in achieving sustainability in fisheries, not just in Ireland but across Europe and globally, is the extent to which conservation measures are implemented. If we are to halt the decline in fish stocks, the issue is not to have more conservation measures but to ensure that those in place are implemented. This is why the implementation of fisheries conservation law is central to the debate on a future for the fishing industry.

We want to build the partnership with the fishing industry. It was always the general position that the Irish fishing industry understood that unless there was strong and effective fisheries enforcement, the area on which we are dependent was in danger of being fished down. The problem is not unique to fishermen flying any particular flag — it is far too simplistic to suggest fishermen under one flag break the law and fishermen under another flag do not. All people are equal and we must enforce the law equally for all parties. The development of the European agency and the national agency, and instruments such as the electronic logbook, should be of considerable assistance in this regard.

On legacy issues with regard to mackerel stocks, we are effectively talking about issues of illegal fishing or overfishing in recent years. The UK authorities reported overfishing by Irish vessels of in excess of 40,000 tonnes on mackerel following investigations in Scotland. The Commission, applying the powers it has under Article 23.4 of the basic Common Fisheries Policy regulation, deducted the overfishing amount reported in respect of 2005 from the 2006 quota. This leaves the issue of overfishing in 2001 to 2004. This has been the subject of discussions with the Commission which has indicated that it will bring forward proposals in that respect. It is clear there is a significant liability for the State in terms of what was done in the period 2001 to 2004, which will have to be addressed in terms of the impact on quotas in future years. The actual text of the decision has not yet been brought forward by the Commission but it has indicated it is imminent.

The investigation being carried out by the Garda authorities is independent. Members will know of media coverage of cases that commenced in Killybegs but that is an independent issue and is not being dealt with by this Department.

What percentage of the tonnage was involved in the decommissioning of vessels?

Dr. Beamish

I do not have the exact figure, which is probably only being finalised at present given that it is a question of discovering how many fishermen took up the offers that were made. One thing that happened this year was that the discussions on the European fisheries fund set down the rules governing what could be paid for decommissioning after 2006. Decommissioning is becoming a more central feature, in Ireland and many other countries, because of the stock situation. The matters under debate in Ireland are not unique to this country, as the same debate is under way in other fishing areas throughout Europe. Consequently, there was a desire to provide flexibility to enhance the attraction of decommissioning during the next period, from 2007 to 2013. Once this became an issue, it appears to have had a detrimental impact on the uptake of decommissioning in the latter part of 2006. While I do not have the exact figure to hand, I will forward it to the Deputy.

I have a final related question. In respect of the cost of decommissioning, the joint committee heard a presentation from some representatives of the banking industry who outlined how they had lent approximately €400 million to commission very large vessels in recent years. As Deputy Perry has noted, if, when one visits a port, one compares the official quota with the size of the boats, one is trying to put two and two together to make 40, which does not quite happen.

What is the position when vessels are decommissioned on which loans are outstanding? Has not the lender undertaken a risk that may not be repaid fully? If they have made a lending decision on the basis that two plus two makes 40, should they not carry some of the costs, rather than the taxpayer?

Dr. Beamish

This is an area in which there is a danger of adding two and two and getting five as many of the lending issues to which the Deputy refers relate to the pelagic fleet, which is not subject to decommissioning with public aid.

What about possible future decommissioning?

Dr. Beamish

I have received no indications from any source that anyone envisages pelagic decommissioning with public aid. I am unsure whether that is on the horizon.

In terms of whitefish vessels, the focus of decommissioning has been on older vessels, rather than on any vessels that might have been introduced within the past decade or with any grant aid. The focus in this regard is to remove the older, less efficient vessels that do not have a future in the industry, or face a less viable future, and to retain a relatively modern, competitive and viable whitefish fleet. Loans are a private matter between the lender and the vessel's owner and in respect of decommissioning, the State does not have an involvement in this regard. However, I am unaware that any grant-aided vessels are encompassed within the decommissioning scheme.

We will allow Dr. Beamish to rest for a minute and will hear from Mr. Ó Cinnéide towards whom a number of questions were directed. He may also wish to contribute to any of the previously discussed matters and has indicated he may have some information that Dr. Beamish may not have had.

Mr. Ó Cinnéide

On decommissioning, the industry is strongly of the view that from a practical point of view, although rationalisation and mechanisms for greater flexibility in the pelagic sector are required to make its units viable, decommissioning, either public or private, is not envisaged to be the mechanism to be used. Instead, the industry's view is that there should be greater flexibility regarding, for example, the amalgamation of quota to make a smaller number of units viable. Apart from anything else, on the basis of cost, such decommissioning would be beyond the compass.

In terms of the decommissioning that has taken place to date, Dr. Beamish is correct to state that the perception there would be further decommissioning at different rates — the federation would expect higher rates — has had a dissuasive effect on the take up of decommissioning. While I am open to correction, my understanding is that no more than €12 million or €13 million of the €45 million that has been set aside under the recommendations made by Padraic White will have been expended. There have been a number of reasons for this. In part however, it is because there were maximum schedules of aid available under the then EU rules.

Moreover, Deputy Eamon Ryan is correct regarding the pressure to get out and to pay one's debts without leaving an overhanging debt. In terms of de-registering a vessel, one is obliged to clear the mortgages on it and consequently, the banks are in quite a powerful position in this regard. While the federation would like to see a decommissioning programme with significantly higher rates applied to the whitefish sector, we do not believe it to be either a viable or an acceptable option as far as the pelagic sector is concerned.

The legacy issues are extremely serious. If my mathematics are correct, Dr. Beamish has outlined an issue in respect of approximately 34,000 tonnes for the period from 2001 to 2004, as well as an impending proposal. The industry has taken a view that those who were guilty of such infringements should bear responsibility for them. However, it is not so simple, in so far as there are major implications for the short term division of the available quota. What is the available quota for next year, given that this issue looms large over us? I consider it to be highly remiss on the parts of all concerned, including the Commission and the Government, that within two weeks of the beginning of the new year, we do not have some clarity on an issue that has been ongoing for at least nine or ten months. I find this to be regrettable.

The fishing industry had an extremely difficult autumn in this regard and cannot afford to repeat the experience. I refer to the opening of fisheries and questions as to what was or was not available. I urge all concerned to make progress as soon as possible, not least the Commission itself, which bears primary responsibility. As an aside, there are some legal uncertainties concerning the power of the Commission to impose some of the penalties involved. However, this issue will be dealt with.

A specific question was asked as to what the alternative measures might be. The federation view the management of TACs, quotas and fish stocks as being a function of an entire menu of possible available measures, which pertain to whether vessels are on the sea and their location thereon. These are the basic measures, some of which are used while others are not. Other measures concern a vessel's characteristics in terms of power, the types of nets or otherwise used by it and whether there are seasonal variations. Similarly, one could consider whether there are spawning concentrations that could be closed to allow specific spawning objectives to be met. One can combine technical measures that essentially pertain to the technical aspects of fishing gear with possible closed areas and, by all means, with TACs and quotas. We do not rule them out as part of such a solution.

A fundamental issue concerns the widely believed assumption that the scientific evidence has come down from our Lord on the cross. However, the scientific analyses are conducted by people operating under certain circumstances and with limitations on resources. The scientific advice presented to the Commission is requested and provided in a particular format, not all of which is the most appropriate for assessing it, or for making available or choosing the correct management tools. As for its reliability or otherwise, much effort has gone into it. However, through no fault of the scientists involved in many cases, the actual quality of the analysis may well have deteriorated. My point is that regardless of the measures one chooses, this question is underpinned by the collection and correct analysis of proper facts. Otherwise, as someone has described it, it is a cacophony of misdirected co-operation. Our chances of reaching the correct outcome with incorrect inputs are slim.

In response to Deputy Broughan's point, my comments regarding the general basket of management measures that can be used also apply to cod. There are various ways to do the job. For example, a committee member referred to the degree to which climate change was a factor. It is a salient issue. At this latitude, we are at the southern extremity in respect of cod stocks. The scientists are present. While we should not use climate change as an excuse to do nothing or in failing to make an effort to sustain the supply in advance of the receipt of absolute knowledge — obviously, fishing has a considerable impact — we need to develop an understanding of the matter and improve the quality of supply. While Dr. Beamish provided a run-down of the control agency, there is little control and enforcement in Vigo port.

I will answer Deputy Broughan's question first and then those of Deputies Eamon Ryan and Perry.

The estimates of landings were derived from the official landing figures reported to the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea. As we are constantly asked for an estimate for the number of fish removed from the Irish EEZ, we produced one this year, but in doing so we needed to make many assumptions. As such, these are minimum estimates.

Modelling is one of the most difficult things to do in terms of biology and Mother Nature. On the economy, the ESRI models in terms and sometimes gets it wrong, yet it works with better figures than those used by fishery scientists.

It is not in government.

In biology, the base one starts with is important. Any uncertainty is multiplied in the models used. There is great uncertainty regarding the landing statistics and the basic data with which we must work in building models. The only way to improve matters is to work with the industry. In this regard, we have made considerable leaps in the past year.

Concerning the cod recovery plan and the position on the Irish Sea, on which Mr. Ó Cinnéide spoke, when the cod recovery problem manifested itself in 2000, we spent much time arguing that it did not present a problem. The industry, in turn, argued with the scientists. There was a feeling that the plan had been imposed on the industry. In such situations one cannot secure a buy-in. The benefit to be gained in working closely with the industry and getting the data we need to reduce the level of uncertainty is the improvement in modelling, because of which we will be able to use better data to make more robust decisions.

This issue relates to the move from fisheries to ocean management. When I spoke to the industry about this three or four years ago, the term "motherhood and apple pie" was used; in other words, we would never reach that point. A significant aspect in moving towards ocean management is industry's involvement in the process and its work with scientists. Equally, scientists must be more transparent in what they are doing, the data they are using and their modelling. While we will not complete the move overnight, we have done much in recent years. When the industry works with scientists, it must accept the science and develop solutions instead of arguing that it is wrong.

Climate change is a considerable issue, as it move beyond the bounds of fisheries to affect society as a whole. The way we live, the Kyoto Protocol and the presence of airborne carbon dioxide have a significant influence on nature and fisheries, but the debate is beyond the scope of fisheries science. We are at the southern limit of many of the fish stocks with which we deal such as cod and herring. Any change in temperature would have a large impact on their distribution, spawning success and egg and larva survival rates. How we address change is a matter for society as a whole, not just fisheries.

Deputy Eamon Ryan raised the question of damage caused by trawling, which I prefer to call the impact of trawling. Fishing must be allowed in some form, but we must minimise the impact of trawling on the environment. It must be recognised that one cannot trawl on coral reefs or in deep waters. We must say trawling is unacceptable in some areas, but in doing so we should identify the areas where it is acceptable. This relates to the issue of scientists working with the industry to develop a common management plan for fisheries. That must be the way forward.

We are making strides in moving towards ocean management. While there is a long way to go, working with the industry, the regional advisory councils and scientists being transparent in their work are good examples of steps in the right direction.

I thank Dr. Connolly, Dr. Beamish, Ms Kelly and Mr. Ó Cinnéide for appearing before the committee. I wish them and those involved in their organisations a happy Christmas and a prosperous new year. I remind members that next Tuesday we will deal with COM (2005) 505, a proposal for a directive establishing a framework for Community action in the field of marine environmental policy. It was interesting to hear Dr. Connolly speak about the marine environment. Will we have the pleasure of Dr. Beamish's company next week?

Dr. Beamish

I will not be here. As the Council will have commenced work in Brussels, everyone dealing with fisheries will be there, but colleagues dealing with the overall aspects of the directive will attend.

I thank Dr. Beamish.

Earlier we considered the Regional Fisheries Boards (Postponement of Elections) Order 2006 and the Fisheries (Miscellaneous Commercial Licences)(Alteration of Duties) Order 2006. The clerk has circulated draft reports on the joint committee's consideration of the two motions referred by the Houses. Are they agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.20 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 19 December 2006.
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