Joint Committee on Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht debate -
Wednesday, 29 Nov 2017

Heritage Bill 2016: Discussion

Chairman

Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe go léir anseo inniu. Gabhaim míle buíochas leo as teacht isteach. I welcome, from the Irish Farmers Association, Mr. Padraic Joyce, Mr. Pat Dunne and Mr. Gerry Gunning, from the Irish Natura and Hill Farmers Association, Mr. Colm O'Donnell, Mr. Henry O'Donnell and Mr. Joe Condon, and from the Irish Wildlife Trust, Mr. Pádraic Fogarty. We also invited BirdWatch Ireland and Inland Waterways Ireland to the meeting but they were unable to attend today. However, they will be able to attend our next meeting next week.

Before I ask them to address the meeting, I draw to the witnesses' attention the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I also advise witnesses that their opening statements and any other documents they have submitted to the committee may be published on the committee website after this meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

To commence the discussion, I ask the representatives of the Irish Farmers Association to make their presentation.

Mr. Pat Dunne

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for the invitation to come in. First, I apologise for the absence of our president, Mr. Joe Healy, who is in Brussels on important business to do with Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, reform. Unfortunately, he could not make it, but we will proceed. I am chairman of the IFA national hill committee. Padraic Joyce is the Connacht regional chairman and Gerry Gunning is the IFA rural development executive.

The IFA welcomes the proposed Heritage Bill put forward by the Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Humphreys. We, as farmers, understand that hedgerows and uplands are an important source of biodiversity. The IFA has sought the introduction of necessary flexibilities to allow farmers manage hedgerows and uplands properly.

An anomaly exists whereby hedge cutting and gorse burning restrictions imposed on farmers in the Republic of Ireland are broadly out of line with restrictions imposed in other similar climatic regions, including Northern Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales. The gorse burning restrictions in the Republic of Ireland impact on the amount of available grazing land and the general competitiveness of the sector. In other words, they contribute to make vast areas of upland areas ineligible for single farm payments.

The excessive closed period for hedge cutting impacts on road safety for pedestrians and motorists. This is a point accepted by the Road Safety Authority. It also leads to farm safety concerns, with hedge cutting works being confined to a time of the year when daylight is declining. In addition, the timeframe to cut hedgerows on wet land is often limited, as it can be restricted due to soil conditions. That is particularly the case in certain sections of the country where ground conditions may not allow it to happen during the legal cutting time. The timeframe available to cut hedgerows on winter tillage farms is severely restricted, as the period of time where fields have no growing crops is limited.

To address the issue of sustainable use and management of our uplands, the IFA supports the Bill on gorse burning for several reasons.

The dates for the burning season must be brought back in line with the UK and Northern Ireland. This is necessary as the region encompassing Ireland and Britain has the same type of climate and environmental challenges. Table 1 shows that burning is permitted in all areas in Scotland from 1 October until 15 April, inclusive, and the dates can be extended to 30 April under the authority of the land owner. In England, burning is allowed from 1 October until 15 April in upland areas and from 1 November to 31 March in lowlands and elsewhere. In Wales the dates are 1 October until 30 March in the uplands and the dates for lowlands and elsewhere are 1 November to 15 March. In Northern Ireland, all areas are covered from 1 September to 14 April. However, the dates for all areas in the Republic are 1 September to 28 or 29 February. There is a vast difference. Traditionally, burning was carried out in upland areas in the spring when the old vegetation had died down and was suitable for burning. We cannot do that now because in upland areas the land and gorse is not dry enough at the specified time of year. It is only in very exceptional circumstances that it can be burned.

Hill land management is supported through agri-environment schemes such as GLAS, GLAS+ or the locally led agri-environment scheme in the rural development plan for 2014 to 2020. The commonage management plans, which are an integral part of the GLAS scheme, should involve a burning period much longer than currently exists. Co-ordinated management practices are essential for good hill land management. Through the management of hill land, the IFA believes that local burning management groups should be established to ensure that maximum advantage is achieved through a longer burning period. Farmers need the necessary research to back up their management practices as well as the necessary supports for hill farming. Burning is a vital management tool to ensure that land is not overgrown and abandoned as a result. That is becoming a major problem.

There are more and more abandoned upland areas because of the restrictive burning dates currently in place, which were introduced in 2000. I am a member of the Wicklow uplands council which has campaigned continually since then to try to change the burning dates. The council encompasses all representative groups, all of which have supported the extension of the burning dates. We carried out a number of studies two years ago. Last February, we did a burning workshop which was very successful. We want to try to show people it can be done very successfully and in a managed way to ensure there are not huge overburns such as happened in parts of the west and north west of Ireland earlier this summer.

In the context of the Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, keeping land eligible for EU payments is vital as sustaining farming is a major challenge in marginal land areas. The Bill is an opportunity to bring the burning dates in Ireland broadly in line with the UK and Northern Ireland. What is proposed will not be quite as long as is allowed in Northern Ireland, but at least it is one month longer than what we have at the moment. This will assist efforts to address uncontrolled wildfires which are common and a serious fire risk to forestry plantations, and uncontrolled vegetation, that is, tall heather and gorse which pose a threat to public safety, public and private property, including forestry, as well as impacting on recreational tourism.

Farmers are seeing increasing numbers of wild deer grazing on lowland pastures. They are coming down from the highlands to lowland pastures because the vegetation has become too scrubby and rough and is no longer palatable. In my county, Wicklow, it has become a major issue. Deer are now seen by farmers as a plague rather than what they should be seen as. I would now like to ask Padraic Joyce to outline to the committee the IFA's position on hedge cutting.

Mr. Padraic Joyce

The IFA supports the Bill because nesting now occurs far earlier in the year due to climate change. August is a busy time for farmers, who exit onto roads and have to deal with hedges which have not been cut and are far out on the roads. A tractor coming onto such roads is a danger to the people passing and the tractor driver. Many fields are overgrown and farmers will find it difficult to work in them.

August is a month during which we pride ourselves on tourism. Briars make it difficult for people to walk and cycle on roads. Tour buses can meet on secondary roads which creates difficulties. Waterlogged fields affect winter cutting and makes it very difficult. From 15 August this year, in my area farmers could not enter such fields to do any work, a situation which continues. Even if they chance entering such fields now, there is a danger to tractor drivers and others more generally. They cannot get work done at present. Hilly land is more dangerous, especially when wet. When machines used for hedge cutting exit onto roads from fields, they bring mud with them which creates another danger on the road.

Overgrown hedges are another problem for farmers. It is easier for people to carry out fly tipping in such hedges. If people come from urban areas and discard waste, which is very easy to do in cases where hedges have not been cut, farmers are responsible. I came before the committee some time ago and heard a member refer to manicured hedges. Farmers want an opportunity to cut hedges and leave them in a good way to grow for the following season. Nesting is much easier in the following season if the hedges have been cut and properly maintained. Local authorities and landowners have to identify the dangers which occur due to overgrown hedges. I again thank the Chairman and members of the committee for inviting us to address them today. I support the Bill.

Chairman

I invite the Irish Natura and Hill Farmers Association to make its presentation.

Mr. Colm O'Donnell

I thank the Chairman. I offer the apologies of our vice president, Mr. Henry O'Donnell, who could not attend the meeting. As the national president of the Irish Natura and Hill Farmers Association, and on behalf of the farmers it represents, Mr. Joe Condon and I wish to make a number of observations and recommendations on the decisions taken by the Houses of the Oireachtas to introduce on a pilot basis legislation to extend the Wildlife Act 1976. The amendments appear in section 3, and refer to controlled burning in March and the maintenance of hedgerows in August.

As custodians of the countryside, we endeavour to farm our lands in an environmentally friendly way and to do that requires an understanding by all stakeholders, including legislators, of ongoing difficulties experienced on the ground particularly the challenges of calendar farming that into the future will no doubt necessitate continued monitoring by everyone.

Amendment 8(1) to extend the burning date to include the month of March is a necessary and practical proposal and brings the burning season closer in line with our nearest neighbours. In Northern Ireland the burning dates are from 1 September to 14 April; in Scotland they are from 1 October to 15 April; in England they are from 1 October to 15 April; and in Wales they are, likewise, from 1 October to 31 March.

In my younger days it was traditional good practice to burn during the month of March, when ground conditions were drying out sufficiently to carry out a controlled burn of areas of mature vegetation earmarked for rejuvenation. Controlled burning of mature upland vegetation is an accepted agricultural activity in maintaining an agricultural area in a state suitable for grazing or cultivation, in the same way that fallow land is eligible in arable land and lowland that has been burnt off with glysophate. The guidelines for glysophate is to allow two weeks before cultivation which is about the same length of time it takes for burned land to begin to rejuvenate.

In the introduction, I made reference to the challenges of calendar farming and there is little doubt that the weather pattern of our seasons is changing. For the last 15 years the only two years that were suitable for a controlled burn within the existing burning dates were 2003 and 2013. I carried out a successful burn on both occasions having gained permission from the relevant authorities. If this weather trend were to continue or to worsen, then the reality is that there may not be an opportunity to carry out a controlled burn before 2030. The inability of landowners to manage these areas on an annual basis has led to uncontrolled wildfires during the closed season which is both an ecological and environmental disaster, destroying the breeding season of ground nesting birds and exposure of innocent landowners to cuts in farm payments. A number of questions need to be answered during this session. Have numbers of ground nesting bird populations increased since the Wildlife Act 1976 excluded the month of March for burning or have they declined? Why have farm payments been withheld from innocent farmers who had lands burned in 2017 beyond their control and without their knowledge? That is happening as we speak.

While I understand that any further extension to the two-year trial period would need approval by both Houses of the Oireachtas, continued monitoring at farm level needs to be documented. The INHFA suggests that moving the dates closer to those of our nearest neighbours is sensible. As a practical solution that would include leaving the month of September closed for burning and including the month of March. Invariably, the month of September is not suitable for burning. There is too much green and too much growth in September. Moving the entire calendar by a month could be a sensible proposal going forward, in line with 1 October to 31 March.

Also, it would be a help if this committee would advise the competent authority, namely, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, DAFM, that no administrative penalty shall be imposed on farmer applicants to schemes where the applicants can demonstrate to the satisfaction of the competent authority, the DAFM, that they are not at fault for the non-compliance or where the competent authority is satisfied that the persons concerned are not at fault in a situation where lands are burned on an applicant's land without their knowledge or consent. We received a number of calls to our national office from farmers who have received no payments because their lands were burned without their knowledge. Something must be done urgently for them.

The inclusion of the month of August for hedge cutting, again needs close monitoring to ensure that both the wildlife contained within our precious hedgerows are preserved while catering for the concerns of the landowner. Again, changing weather conditions and its effect on our seasons is influencing breeding patterns for occupiers of our hedgerows but also affects the farmers' ability to carry out routine hedgerow maintenance.

In 2017 the month of September proved too wet for many landowners to carry heavy hedge cutting machinery and risked soil erosion and compaction of the soil. The situation has not improved since with heavy rainfall still the dominant weather pattern. My experience is that where hedgerows are maintained on an annual basis it can be done without disturbance to the wildlife contained within the heart of the hedge as cutting is a manicure of the annual growth, that is, it only involves cutting the sides and top of the hedge. Overgrown, badly maintained hedgerows will benefit from August cutting, where it may require three or four runs of the hedge cutter to get it under control. In such cases ground conditions are more suitable earlier in the autumn.

The INHFA proposes that during future discussion on whether the month of August would be part of an extension to legislation it should look at a compromise solution to ensure all aspects are considered. Part of that compromise could be to include the dates from 1 August to 15 August as closed season, thus giving the first 15 days of August as a timeframe for any delayed breeding within the hedgerows to fledge. Opening up the hedge cutting season from the 16 August onwards would allow the landowner the opportunity to carry out remedial works while weather conditions are favourable. As has been pointed out, once 15 August arrives things start to deteriorate. Thank you, Chairman. We look forward to being involved in the discussion.

Chairman

Gabhaim mo bhuíochas le Mr. O'Donnell. Anois cuirim fáilte roimh an ionadaí ón Irish Wildlife Trust.

Mr. Pádraic Fogarty

Thank you, a Chathaoirligh, for the opportunity to address the committee members today. The Irish Wildlife Trust, IWT, is a non-governmental charitable organisation which was founded in 1979 with the goal of raising awareness of the importance of our natural heritage. We have approximately 3,000 members. We have been vocal in our concerns regarding changes to the Wildlife Act, via the Heritage Bill, and in particular with respect to proposed changes to permitted dates for hedge cutting and burning of vegetation. Both of these initiatives are potentially destructive to wildlife, but for very different reasons, and therefore need to be debated as entirely separate issues.

First, I will deal with hedge cutting. The reasons changes to the permitted hedge cutting dates are needed remain a mystery. It certainly cannot be for reasons of health and safety since that is already clearly provided for under section 40 of the Wildlife Act. The IWT has no objections to hedge cutting at any time of the year for genuine reasons of health and safety. That is paramount to any other consideration. Most of our partner organisations are in agreement with that. If health and safety were a genuine concern, surely it would need to be addressed at any date and would not be resolved by extending the hedge cutting season into August only. The IWT does not believe that health and safety are the motivations behind the proposed change, but we do not have theories as to what are. Many of the farmers to whom we have spoken in recent years have said that it is perfectly possible to manage hedges within the six months that are allocated at present. To change the law for unknown motivations cannot be a good idea under any circumstances, but in this instance the consequences would be devastating for wildlife.

The importance of hedgerows cannot be overstated as they are the last refuge of wildlife across much of the Irish countryside. With the ongoing intensification of agriculture, the patchwork of fields in lowland Ireland is no longer home to wild plants, insects or birds. That means wildlife now depends more than ever on hedgerows, and the shelter, flowers and berries that they provide. In August, many birds are still nesting while even birds which have successfully reared young at that stage, along with all the other hedgerow wildlife, are stocking up for the winter ahead. The hedgerows are not only nesting places but larders which are essential in the cycle of survival. Allowing hedge cutting during this crucial month would therefore make survival more difficult for all the hedge's wildlife.

With our climate changing, and the pressures wildlife is under elsewhere, we should, if anything, be seeking to extend the prohibited hedge-cutting season into September to give flora and fauna an additional boost. It is for this reason that we are opposed to the proposed changes in the Heritage Bill. As a footnote, we appreciate that hedgerows need to be maintained and managed because they are man-made and farming habitats. Surveys that have been carried out show that many of our hedgerows are in poor condition. This should be addressed.

By contrast with proposals on hedge-cutting, we can see the motivation behind the proposal to allow an extension of the hill burning season. Upland farmers, who have lived and worked in the affected areas for generations see their livelihoods in decline and understandably feel that urgent action is needed. For a variety of reasons, however, burning land is not the answer to these issues. The IWT has monitored what is now an annual season for wildfires across in nearly all counties of Ireland. In 2017, we recorded 97 illegal fires in 19 counties. Combined with plantation forestry, these fires have eradicated nature in our uplands. This is not an exaggeration. According to the National Parks and Wildlife Service, all of our habitats in upland areas are in bad condition while all of the birds synonymous with hills are threatened with extinction. They include the curlew, meadow pipit, golden eagle, twite, golden plover, ring ouzel, skylark, nightjar, hen harrier and red grouse. All the ecological, landscape and tourist value is lost in wildfire circumstances.

Our records from 2017 show that the fire season begins in late March and carries on until the middle of May. This is entirely due to the prevailing weather so extending the permitted season into March is unlikely to provide suitable conditions for so-called “controlled” burning. This type of burning is carried out in the UK to encourage unnatural densities of red grouse for game, and has nothing to do with sheep farming. Furthermore, studies from the University of Leeds have shown that controlled burning is associated with loss of habitat and biodiversity, pollution of water courses, reduced soil fertility and loss of carbon in a habitat which should be a large storage bank for carbon and therefore helping to mitigate climate change. It is a type of land management which is known to exacerbate downstream flooding as water absorption capacity in the peat is lost.

The IWT has proposed solutions to upland restoration that accommodate wildlife and traditional farming but with no requirement for burning land. These include replacing sheep with cattle, planting upland native woodlands, including conversion of existing Sitka spruce plantations to native forests, agro-forestry, which combines trees with grazing of domestic animals, or paying landowners to allow vegetation to simply go wild. This makes sense when the land is valued for the common good, for example, in providing drinkable water, alleviating floods, and enhancing tourist and amenity value. Foremost in our priorities is the removal of the requirement for vegetation to be at "grazable height" in order to qualify for the basic payment scheme. Overnight, this measure would remove a significant driver for wildfires and is something we strongly feel needs to be urgently addressed. To this end, we have lodged a complaint with the European Commission. I have copies to hand and have supplied copies to the clerk for those who want one. The document details all the wildfires we logged this year, the reasons we complained to the Commission and the solutions we would like to see implemented. If we all want uplands that have people and wildlife that provide a range of benefits to every person in this county, we need to provide these options for farmers. Extending the burning date to the end of March, we believe, will do nothing for anybody.

The IWT has worked with our partners in BirdWatch Ireland, An Taisce and the Hedge Laying Association of Ireland in highlighting the damaging effects the proposed changes to the heritage legislation will have on our already beleaguered wildlife. Over 30,000 people have signed a petition opposing the move and we hope the changes I have discussed today are not adopted. I thank the committee once again for hearing my submission today.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I welcome the witnesses today. I thank the representatives of the IFA and Irish Natura & Hill Farmers Association for their comments, fair requests and understanding of the situation on the ground. I welcome Mr. Fogarty but I certainly do not welcome his comments as they are not helpful to the farming community, wider public or, indeed, the birds or wildlife he says he is trying to protect.

It is my view and that of many that roadside hedges should be cut all the year round for the safety of road users. I seriously mean that. People are saying this to me. They are paying their road tax. They are trying to do a bit of exercise up and down narrow roads but cannot because their eyes would be picked out. They cannot cycle on our roads. We are supposed to cycle to keep fit. Farmers cannot take loads of hay up or down roads because of branches, trees, bushes, briars and every other thing stopping them. That should not be the way. We are entitled to the roadway that is tarred but the margins between the edges of the roads and the ditches should be kept clear all year round because people are using both the roads and roadsides all year round. On a narrow road, one has nowhere to step out of the way, bearing in mind that some roads are only the width of one vehicle. One is prevented from stepping out of the way if the briars and hedges are not cut.

To say that birds are nesting at the side of the road or in trees over the road is absolutely ridiculous because it does not account for the wind of a lorry, tractor or car moving in a lively way down the road. As I have said many times before, the birds would be left naked in the middle of the road because every feather would be blown off them. It is ridiculous that the Irish Wildlife Trust wants to say to us that we cannot cut the roadside hedges to ensure the safety of the people.

I would go further. Three people were killed recently by branches. There is a lot of talk about road safety. There is a man upstairs suggesting people should not be able to drive a tractor without getting an NCT or that a young fellow cannot drive a car without being accompanied even though he is insured. These kinds of people want to close down rural Ireland altogether and stop us moving around.

I have no problem with hedges being allowed to grow at a certain time inside the ditches. The whole country is ripe for birds, and we welcome them. If Mr. Fogarty were really interested in ground-nesting birds, he would tackle the mink, grey crows and magpies. They are taking the eggs of the ground-nesting birds. There was no mention of that. The Irish Wildlife Trust wants to leave everything grow wild. It is actually damaging the ground-nesting birds by not insisting on the elimination of the creatures I mentioned, in addition to foxes. As Mr. Dunne stated, deer are a plague. They are no longer satisfied to graze on the hills and the mountains. They are spreading rhododendrons and everything else, and they are eating what farmers have.

Farmers have to cut their stock because of deer. I thank the witness for highlighting that.

It is frightening to think that those in the North of Ireland can cut hedges for a month or six weeks longer than those in the South. There is only a ditch between us. We are trying to ensure that there will not be a border between us. What does that tell us? Over the years farmers have been the best custodians of the land and do not need to be told how to manage their land by any interrupters. They want to hand their farms down to those coming after them as their fathers did.

Payments are being held up. I spoke on the telephone today to a man who overcame cancer. His payment has been held up because the commonage of which he is a shareholder was burned. He had nothing to do with it. The Department promised a month ago that a letter would be issued outlining what the man would and would not get. To date he still has not received the letter. We firmly believe he will get no payment for Christmas, which is totally wrong because he had nothing to do with what happened.

We could do things a bit better. Farmers and landowners should be advised to open a fire belt around their properties should they be likely to be burned. I spoke about the issue when I was a member of Kerry County Council. The National Parks and Wildlife Service and other bodies should open fire belts to ensure fires do not spread. People who want to burn should do so legally and in a controlled fashion. I ask for a return to the previous position whereby farmers received help from Coillte to carry out burning, something which happened until 15 April. Since then, the date has been changed to the end of February. We could do things better in that regard.

I remind Mr. Fogarty-----

Chairman

Does the Deputy have any questions?

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

If burning was left until 15 April, the green grass growing underneath when the older stuff is burnt off would ensure less harm is done to the ground because it would not be burned. I know that because I am a farmer. I have to survive in a severely handicapped area and there are many more like me. Burning growth is the only way of getting rid of it. Green growth helps to ensure less harm is done to the land that is being burned.

Why is the law in Ireland different? Scotland has similar terrain. We will focus on Ireland. Everyone has agreed that we do not want any border. One side of a field in the North can be cut but the South side cannot. It is ridiculous. We are in the one country and the same law should apply to all of us.

Senator Fintan Warfield

During the progress of the Bill through the Seanad, a number of amendments were proposed to confine the hedge cutting extension to roadside hedges. Does the IFA believe that if the extension of hedge cutting into August was exclusive to roadside hedges, it would remedy most of its issues?

I read an interview featuring a representative of the IFA who said he was hopeful that the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, would deliver on a number of promises made to the association. Will the witnesses detail those promises?

Could the INHFA explain the benefits of burning in March? Met Éireann statistics show March is wetter than January and February. Furthermore, winter 2016 and 2017 were among the driest on record. Silage was being made in October, yet there were a series of wildfires in spring 2017. My understanding is that the same landowners who started these fires had opportunities to burn in the open season but did not do so. Some 432 fires were recorded in May this year alone. Will the witnesses explain how a March extension will solve this when the presentation led us to believe that it would go a long way to solve rogue burning.

How do the witnesses from the IFA and the INHFA believe this could impact on the bird nesting season or bee pollination? How do all witnesses believe that the Bill maintains or enhances our natural heritage?

Chairman

Who would like to take those questions? We can start with the IFA.

Mr. Padraic Joyce

I will address the question on bird nesting first. The hedges which are cut are a lot more compact. Deputy Healy-Rae referred to Northern Ireland. Many more hedges are manicured there than in the South. They are a lot broader and there is a better chance for birds to nest in them. Another question concerned roadside hedges. We want inward hedges to be treated in a similar fashion in line with of good farming practice. It is a lot easier to work within fields and carry out ploughing or whatever.

As I have said, birds have more of a chance to nest in a more compact hedge which has been looked after properly. Due to the waterlogging of fields and hilly land in my area, it has not been possible to work in fields from 15 August until the present day. If the rain continues, hedges will not be cut this year at all. It is a significant problem. If we could have started on 1 August, we could have cut the hedges.

Senator Fintan Warfield

A representative of the IFA said he was hopeful that the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, would deliver on a number of promises. Are the witnesses in a position to detail those commitments?

Mr. Gerry Gunning

I would like to comment. The Minister, Deputy Humphreys, came forward with this proposal which came from the Government and her Department, and we support it. We expect that when a proposal is made, it is delivered. I hope that answers the Senator's question.

We have to consider the maximisation of the use of the land in terms of roadside hedges. There are major problems in the encroachment of vegetation onto land and there are issues with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine vis-à-vis the eligibility of the land which Mr. Dunne referred to in the context of hill areas. Most committee members are from rural areas. The amount of hedges cut in any one year is very small. Over a ten-year period, less than 0.5% of hedges would be cut in any one year, including roadside hedges.

The amount of damage that would be done to the environment would be insignificant because the environment is evolving anyway. We see great changes in the environment, for example, with climate change. The Minister has proposed this change and we support it. We acknowledge the support of Deputies and Senators on the Bill because farmers see it as a good, practical step to make management of their land and hedges much better.

Senator Fintan Warfield

I asked two questions as well of the Irish Natura and Hill Farmers Association about the Met Éireann statistics.

Mr. Colm O'Donnell

Senator Warfield asked about the benefits of including March for burning. If it could be done in February it would be done. If the conditions were dry enough to carry out a controlled burn then it would be done in February, but the reality is the days in March are getting longer and the natural drying out comes with the spring in March. That is the reason we want to carry out the controlled burning then. The wildfires that happened during the month of May were due to the conditions being too dry. In March the conditions are just drying out sufficiently to carry out a controlled burn where the farmer or the group of people carrying out the burn are in control. It is not like using petrol or fuel in the month of May when all the purple moor grass has decayed.

Burning is an agricultural activity to maintain the land. It is similar to reseeding in lowland areas or in an enclosed field. A germination process starts. The dormant seeds are in the ground. The ash helps the germination process. It is part of tradition. Heather is a shrub and grass that matures over time. We are talking about the mature vegetation. It has a life cycle. If it is not burned, it will fall over within the 15-year life cycle. We need to be able to manage it. The change would prevent the wildfires happening, to which Senator Warfield and other speakers referred. Even if an uncontrolled fire affects an area that had been managed properly and burned in a controlled fashion, it would fizzle out. Perhaps today is a good opportunity to look for a dedicated scheme run by the National Parks and Wildlife Service for the burning of uplands in a controlled fashion.

Chairman

Would Mr. Fogarty like to address any of the issues that have been raised so far?

Senator Fintan Warfield

Do the witnesses believe the Bill maintains or enhances natural heritage?

Mr. Pádraic Fogarty

As far as I can see there is nothing in the Bill for natural heritage. It has a negative effect.

Chairman

There are major problems in the farming sector at the moment. The average wage within farming is about half what it is in the industrial sector. Currently about a third of farmers in this State are independently economically viable and much more needs to be done to ensure farming is helped to become more economically viable. I am of the view that it is the price side of the business that needs the most help. Farmers are not getting the value for the work they are doing as it is being taken by other actors in the market.

As Mr. O'Donnell has said, it is disastrous that farmers are being penalised in certain cases where they themselves have no hand, act or part in what has happened on their land. That needs to change. We will try to resolve that with the Department if we can.

There is an economic benefit to biodiversity. It is a key element of the functioning of farming that we have a strong biodiversity in order that pollinators, for example, are able to flourish as well as all the other species. In fairness, much degradation has been done to the biodiversity of this country in the past 30 to 40 years. I believe everybody in this room would accept that. Certain species are at a tipping point of existence currently. There needs to be a balance in society in terms of the ability of farmers to function and farm and some level of protection for biodiversity. I accept the point that the fewer restrictions one has the easier it is to function as a farmer. If the opportunity for action is extended the situation will be better.

How big an issue is hedge cutting? I live in the countryside and most of the hedges around me at the moment have not been cut. I am trying to gauge the impetus for this. It seems to me that if this was a massively important issue, the hedges on the roadside would have been cut at the first opportunity, in the first couple of weeks of the current window. We are fighting for the window to be extended even though the window that exists is not being used by many farmers.

How difficult is it to use section 40 the Wildlife Act currently? Do farmers use it to try to cut hedges? When we contacted the Road Safety Authority to ask if the Minister discussed the road safety aspects of the Bill with it, the response was there had been no interaction. That shocked me because if the main thrust of the Bill was road safety, the first people one would go to would be those in the Road Safety Authority. Can we improve the existing measures in terms of road safety and hedges to make it easier for farmers to use them? Would a compromise position allowing farmers to cut hedges along the roadside be good enough or would it have to include all hedges on a farm?

Mr. Padraic Joyce

Reference was made in one of the questions to road safety. If a farmer has to apply to a local authority to cut roadside hedges, it can take two weeks to get a response and meanwhile the danger is increasing. In the month of August roads are extremely busy.

The Chairman asked why hedges in his area have not been cut. I see it as well in my area. It should be remembered that hedge cutting is a huge cost on farmers as they have to bring in a contractor to get the work done. Contractors have only so many weeks to do the work. As my colleague said, only one fifth of hedges are cut because of the huge cost involved. Some farmers cannot afford it. The number of hedges that are cut is not a huge issue but it is a reasonable ask to allow farmers who want to cut hedges in the month of August for good farming practice to do so.

Chairman

How many licence applications are there for burning annually?

Mr. Colm O'Donnell

I think one has to comply with nine different Acts.

Chairman

A farmer has to make an application to carry out the burning.

Mr. Colm O'Donnell

Yes. A farmer has to apply to the environmental section of the county council and notify An Garda Síochána and the fire service. If it is in a designated area, for example a special area of conservation, SAC, a farmer would have to look for permission from the National Parks and Wildlife Service to burn. The situation at the moment is crazy. I mentioned calendar farming in my submission. There is a requirement to give seven days' notice. It is not possible to give seven days' notice for the carrying out of a controlled burn in our climate. It should be no more than 24 hours because it is not practical otherwise. Many farmers around the table can testify to that. It is crazy that we have to give such notice.

Chairman

I read somewhere that there was one application for a licence for controlled burning in the entire country in a given year. Approximately how many licences were there?

Mr. Pat Dunne

I do not know but I do know that if one wants to burn in a special area of conservation, it is a notifiable action. However, as Mr. O'Donnell said, if one wants to burn within a mile of a plantation, be it private or on Coillte land, one has to contact the Garda. Coillte, the fire brigade and local authority must be notified. One has to apply to a whole raft of people. For a long time we have been advocating for the establishment of burning groups, whereby there would be one point of contact for the farmer. It could be the environmental officer in the local county council. He or she could be contacted and told one intends to burn on such a day. That officer would be able to co-ordinate with the various interested bodies.

To follow on from what Mr. Colm O'Donnell said, we are not seeking to burn the whole countryside; rather, we want rotational burning, just as any farmer would do when reseeding the land. If a certain proportion of the mountain or other area were burned each year, none of the really big fires would occur. We saw examples of such fires earlier this summer. Thousands upon thousands of acres were burned. If burning were carried out in a controlled way and only certain areas were burned annually, it would address this. Depending on soil type, it can take ten to 15 years for the heather to reach the height it was before being burned. It grows a bit every year. If there were patchwork burning, there would not be huge fires.

I do not agree with Mr. Pádraic Fogarty from the Irish Wildlife Trust. What we want to do would support wildlife, including birdlife. The Irish Red Grouse Association is very much in favour of the proposed changes. Mr. Fogarty is not correct when he says-----

Chairman

Does Mr. Fogarty wish to respond to that?

Mr. Pádraic Fogarty

The Chairman asked about the number of licences. The number of permissions given for burning in 2016 was one. There is a project in Boleybrack in County Leitrim that is being run by the gun club to encourage grouse. That is where controlled burning is taking place.

Chairman

One licence was granted in all Twenty-six Counties for controlled burning in 2016.

Mr. Pádraic Fogarty

Correct.

Chairman

From the information we have heard, it seems nobody is happy with the processes. Perhaps we need to start evaluating the whole process from the start because even if the burning season were extended by one month, the difficulties regarding timing and the notification of numerous organisations would still arise. Burning is a dangerous activity and one that must be controlled.

Mr. Colm O'Donnell

I have a further comment on that. Each year when filling out the basic payment application form, one notes that the back page of the booklet states that if there is any doubt, one should not burn. I accept it is an offence to burn outside the allowed times. In circumstances such as those referred to by Mr. Fogarty, involving contacting An Taisce and BirdWatch Ireland, where is the farmer in all this? Should he not be part of that process? Surely to God he has a role to play.

We would definitely be open to the IFA suggestion to come up with some kind of proper scheme to manage burning whereby one single authority would be contacted.

Deputy Seán Canney

I welcome the delegation. It is interesting to hear the discussion taking place. To correct Deputy Danny Healy-Rae, the man upstairs whom he is talking about revoked the statutory instrument on testing tractors so he need not worry about that.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

One thing I can tell the Deputy is that a young fellow in Killorglin was stopped from doing his apprenticeship owing to blackguarding based on the suggestion that a provisional driver cannot drive unaccompanied. That is what the individual Mr. Canney referred to did, in case he is defending him in any way.

Deputy Seán Canney

I am just clarifying so the Deputy will have the information when going back.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

That is what they have achieved.

Deputy Seán Canney

From listening to the debate and from my agricultural background, I note there is a view that there will be widespread, out-of-control burning of gorse. Burning is part of the rotational sequence associated with keeping a good farm. My brother has hedges and stone walls. The stone walls are not good enough to give shelter so there are hedges along them. They have to be pruned, thickened and made windproof. The only way this can be done is by cutting from time to time in such a way as to create a proper hedge. This helps the wildlife. Around Galway, from where I come, the farmers are the custodians of nature. The farmers probably understand nature better than anybody because they understand its importance and why there must be a balance in everything one does. Therefore, I am happy enough that the Bill reflects what is required.

Having been a member of the county council in Galway for 12 or 13 years before I had the honour of being elected to the Dáil, I noted the issue of hedge trimming not being carried out arises all the time. I remember councillors saying on one occasion that the problem was so bad that one did not need to go to a car wash to wash one's car because one could do it along the side of the road. All the foliage was coming out on top of one. It is not really the hedges but the grass and other foliage. It is just the verges. The growth is not being back because there is a very confined time in which cutting is allowed.

We have a multitude of local roads on which two cars cannot pass if they meet each other. We have to be able to travel along these roads. Deputy Danny Healy-Rae mentioned cycling and walking. These are also issues. The problem is that one sees verge trimming occurring in the depths of winter, in the shortest days of the year and at a time when there is very little light during the day. There is a health and safety issue. There is legislation that stipulates verges can be cut for safety reasons. If so, we should be cutting the verges all year round. We should not have legislation preventing it. It is a health and safety issue. I do not see foliage along any road being cut every year or twice per year. Usually the verges are cut every two to three years, by rotation, around the country.

I listened to what Mr. Fogarty said. It is not that I am dismissing anything he said but I believe that the farming community ultimately has a considerable role to play. Sometimes we take all these matters to a point that is counter-productive. I saw this with flooding when I was responsible for the OPW. There are certain things we cannot do to clean channels and rivers, and there are certain things we cannot do to keep water flowing. What happens is that we create floods that empty septic tanks. Tanks, including oil tanks, burst and destroy the environment. Lough Funshinagh in Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice's constituency looks like a nuclear bomb landed on it. All nature has been stripped out of it; there is no wildlife there because of pollution from flooding. We have to be very careful when following rules and regulations.

One of the biggest reasons we have so much flooding on the Shannon is that we have never done any kind of channel cleaning or maintenance. If we continue on that road with everything else in this country, we will end up with a situation where farmers will not be farming, we will not be able to exist in rural areas and we will have to push more and more people into towns and cities. Farmers are the custodians of nature and rural life. They are responsible, and I am aware of that from my own experience. We need to work together to make sure we protect the environment and that we do so in a practical and pragmatic way. I do not have any questions. The submissions are very good and informative and I appreciate the fact that the witnesses have taken time out to come before the committee.

Deputy Michael Collins

I welcome the IFA, those representing hillside farmers and the Irish Wildlife Trust. I must declare a conflict of interest in that I am a farmer. I am proud of that; I am a hillside farmer also. In my view if one wants to talk about farming, one has to wear a pair of wellingtons. People might not like to hear that but it is a fact. We know what it is like to live in rural Ireland from day to day and the difficulties we encounter. We have the benefits also in terms of the beauty of the views, for example. Experts come in here and tell people in rural areas what is best for them. That would be like me going to a place like Tallaght, Rathmines or Castleknock and telling people what is best for them. I would not dare do that because I am not an expert on the issues concerning people there. However, I would listen to their opinion and I would appreciate it.

There was talk about not cutting roadside verges. What planet are those people on? They are definitely not on this planet anyway in terms of the reality of what is happening on the ground.

Senator Fintan Warfield

That is not right.

Chairman

I ask members to temper their remarks.

Deputy Michael Collins

What planet do people think they are on? I did not mention anyone's name.

Senator Fintan Warfield

Deputy Collins was looking over here.

Deputy Michael Collins

I can look anywhere. That is what God gave me eyesight for, namely, to look around.

Chairman

With respect, we should temper our statements.

Deputy Michael Collins

We are talking about roadside verges. It is hugely important that people cut their verges in a rural community. We have many instances of people who are on holidays in particular having their rental cars scratched because we have not been able to cut the verges. I am a member of a community council in Goleen in west Cork. In fairness to the local authority, verge cutting grants have been made available by Cork County Council. It is a fabulous idea but, unfortunately, it should be available in May, June or July when people are driving around and getting their cars scratched and in danger of losing their lives, but it is only made available during the cutting season. I recently brought a number of application forms to a meeting and although there are many good people who are very worried about the environment on the community council, they snapped up the forms so that they could get their verges cut. The roadsides were in a diabolical state and they got them cut. The funny thing is that I have been coming up to Dublin for a year and a half and I see what happens on the motorway. The other day I thought I might not be coming anymore. The verges on the motorway are cut almost every hour. All the organisations that oppose verges being cut do not think it is any bother to cut them on the motorway even though they are further back from the roadside, yet when roadside verges are virtually shaking hands with each other in rural areas, there is complete opposition to them being cut.

I welcome the changes that are being made. Unfortunately, the extensions are not long enough. The cutting periods should be even longer, especially for roadside verges. I agree with Deputy Danny Healy-Rae that it is a different story inside the farm boundaries. We would have no issue with more care and attention being given there. We should be able to cut roadside verges 12 months of the year.

My views on burning by farmers are well known. Unfortunately, west Cork was an inferno this year and it affected a lot of wildlife. I attribute that to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. I am involved in a committee which is taking the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine to court because of the massive fines it applied to farmers for having gorse on the land. The funny thing is that I heard nothing from the Irish Wildlife Trust or anyone else either about protecting the birds and the bees. The silence was deafening. No one was fighting for us when farmers were being fined up to €30,000 for having gorse on their land. One could not have a nicer thing on one's land. Some cattle walk around it and eat around it, yet all of a sudden we were deemed to be massive villains. I met with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine at the time in Portlaoise and said there would be an inferno in rural areas, and that it should wait and see what it would cause. Nobody gave a damn. Nobody stood up for us. We collected €80,000 to bring a case against the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. Some farmers are going out of existence because of it and it has inflicted worry on their families.

Listening to the debate, it appears people are hoping to get a couple of more weeks out of it and we might get an opportunity to do what is being called a controlled burn. That is encouraging. Muintir na Tíre has pressed for that to happen. It is working with all farm organisations to see whether controlled burns can be carried out at different stages during the year while making sure that wildlife is protected. There was no voice in support of the ordinary farmer in rural Ireland when he was getting a fine of up to €30,000. No wildlife group spoke up. Many farmers are still not sure whether they will face massive fines. If some of the wildlife groups had their way, it would be a case of putting the gates up at Innishannon and turning it into "Jurassic Park". That is what they want to do. They want to close us up and simply have a park to visit where people can see beautiful birds and bees but the reality is that we have to live there too from day to day. If people living in Dublin city, for example, had verges closing in around them or the wildlife groups or the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine were putting them out of business for having a bit of gorse, they would be forced into a corner. When one is forced into a corner, one has to do something about it. One cannot just sit down and watch one's livelihood being lost. Everyone here should have a bit of understanding. The Minister shows understanding in the Bill. I do not think the Bill goes far enough but at least it is a move in the right direction. It still protects the wildlife to a degree and it gives landowners an opportunity to do so without the worry of massive fines hanging over their head and the people travelling on the roads to do so in safety.

Mr. Pádraic Fogarty

I will respond to some of those points. I assure Deputy Collins that I do live on the same planet as everybody else.

Deputy Michael Collins

I did not say that to Mr. Fogarty.

Mr. Pádraic Fogarty

With regard to roadsides, we have been very explicit all through this debate that we would never ever seek to prohibit hedge cutting where there is an issue of health and safety. I have said it here and I have said it many times before. We put that in all our statements. Health and safety is the number one priority. The time of the year does not matter when it comes to a health and safety issue. We do not disagree on that point.

With regard to wildlife groups not speaking up about the removal of gorse, that is unfair and inaccurate because we have pointed out since the last round of the CAP which removed requirements under set-aside that we were also predicting that it would result in an awful lot of habitat loss and fines. We have been vocal on those issues.

As for wanting to turn west Cork into a park, I suggest that Deputy Collins read some of the statements we have made in the past about wildlife management in rural areas. I think he will find that we have never suggested that people should not be central to the preservation of the countryside and landscape.

Chairman

Does either of the two farming organisations wish to respond to Deputy Collins's questions?

Mr. Gerry Gunning

Obviously we agree with Deputy Collins on the issue of land eligibility being a problem. The restrictions have resulted in problems for farmers in west Cork and other places. We are concerned about farmers who have not been paid for this year in the context of burning. There is evidence in west Cork that hills were burned by people who came in from other areas, yet the farmers whose land was burned end up with a penalty.

Our line on that issue is that unless the Department can prove who started the fire, all the farmers should be paid. One is dealing with commonage land. Commonages are sometimes very big and have many shareholders. Sometimes the farmers may not know one another. They might be from different sides of a hill, for example. It is not as simple as with private land. Private land is different because one is fully in control of it. With commonage, it is very different. That is our position on that matter.

Mr. Joe Condon

A question was asked earlier about cutting hedges within fields. We are totally for this in the month of August. For various reasons, the land is drier. Cutting in August would not create rutting, which leads to soil erosion, which in turn leads to siltation of rivers, etc. The soil structure is much more firm at that time of the year. If there is a heavy hedge that requires cutting, it is done once. The next cut just involves a maintenance run. It could be the next year or the one after that. The nesting birds will not be interfered with on a maintenance run.

Another proposal we would like to make is that the National Parks and Wildlife Service should be properly funded to establish a burning scheme for upland areas, including commonages, private Natura land and designated lands. It should be given the flexibility to burn limited areas of the uplands when possible. This derogation should be allowed until such time as rotational burning is fully established in upland areas. Today, no land would burn. Land that was burned last year will not burn at any time. Burning is the problem and burning is the solution. It is a paradox. A fire needs fuel. If the fuel is allowed to build up, the fire spreads, as happened in the Cloosh Valley in Connemara, where the special area of conservation extends for miles. The farmers in the area had no choice. They attempted to put the fire out but it was so powerful that it just passed right through. The area was managed by the National Parks and Wildlife Service and would have benefited from controlled burning over the relevant years.

We believe there are solutions. We believe burning is essential for upland management and for agricultural purposes.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

I am somewhat out of my depth here because I live in what RTÉ calls the capital, whatever it means by that. It is as if we were living on a continent. From my background in the west, I concur with all my colleagues that this is an agricultural country. We forget it at our peril.

We had a group of visitors in from the Czech Republic, led by Deputy Collins. They had travelled from west Cork and Kerry to Dublin. I asked them what it was about Ireland that they noticed in particular. They said we are so good at farming and know how to do it. This is a real compliment to everybody here. I want to lay the subject of health and safety aside because I am sick of it. Everything is an excuse for a health and safety argument, which for older people now is a cause to make them fragile. The phrase "health and safety, health and safety, health and safety" is used but it teaches people how to be fragile. It sometimes obfuscates what is sheer common sense, which is effectively what is being talked about by the delegates, who know their business. They are trying to make a place for common sense. I do not know what we are talking about really when we talk of health and safety at the same time that the Pacific Ocean is full of plastic and considering that many of our rivers and streams are full of excrement. We make up phrases such as "health and safety".

I will make my third point and then move on to my observation. When I drive down a motorway or on another major road and look at the foliage on the left, I note it is sometimes hacked to death by what I would call the wrong instrument. Did anybody ever notice that? It is as if the branches have been cracked or broken off with brutality as opposed to being cut using what one would call the proper instrument. This is evident along many of our motorways and many other major roads. I do not know whose fault that is.

The Irish Wildlife Trust has a really good point to make. I am very much in favour of BirdWatch Ireland and the Irish Wildlife Trust. If there are 75 illegal fires and only one licence, one must ask what is going on. Mr. O'Donnell and Mr. Dunne have a really good point in that if there were a central authority, it would be of benefit. One is delayed by ringing up various individuals and trying to get 15 different permissions. It is not that it is an excuse but people say they are not waiting for all the permissions and then proceed to burn. There is a kind of waywardness in certain behaviour. The delegates made a very good point because there is an impasse here. As an objective person from the capital, I realise there is massive impasse; one just wants to get it right. The farmers are completely right and want to do it right. As Mr. Dunne said, they just need some sort of central, strategic point. With that, the system can work.

The Heritage Bill has resulted in many trials and tribulations because everybody is trying to get it right. We have seen the destruction of islands all over the place. One should consider what is happening in Bali. That is just an observation because I do not come with any expertise. I bow to the better judgment of the delegates. I bow to the Irish Wildlife Trust because I know its heart is in the right place, as are the hearts of the farmers. The farmers are the keepers of the land and do it very well. I have had the privilege of spending considerable time around the country observing many areas of farming. A strategic point is needed, however. The system seems to be all over the place. It seems to be a case of every man for himself on the way to Mayo after Longford, especially if one is thinking of having tea in Tulsk.

Chairman

Is that an observation or a question?

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

Would anyone like to respond to it? The discussion was quite interesting.

Mr. Padraic Joyce

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell asked a very valid question, namely, why the hedges are hacked to death. I can well understand why. What happens is that the period of cutting is so short and the autumns have been so wet that farmers have not been able to do hedge cutting in two to four years. When the hedge cutter is used after that period, it is not really suitable. The branches grow so strong that the flail is not that suitable. One does not end up with the hedge one is looking for. As with mowing the lawn, one likes to do it every so often and do a good job. Farmers genuinely like to have their hedges properly cut. One must remember it is done at a cost to them, but they are still willing to pay.

Deputy Niamh Smyth

I thank the gentlemen for three very interesting and different perspectives on this Bill. I have just one or two questions. On section 40, on which we have touched, I would like both delegates' views on why the measure does not work. Is it purely because of the bureaucracy behind it?

With an extension of the cutting period into the month of August, how confident is the IFA of addressing the problem? A considerable aspect of its argument is based on road safety, about which we all care, of course. How confident is the IFA that a one-month extension will improve road safety, particularly on rural roads?

Mr. Joyce gave a very insightful presentation on both burning and hedge cutting. I recognise the work of heritage officers within the local authorities. That has been a big move in terms of the appreciation we now have of our natural and built heritage, particularly our natural heritage. Éanna Ní Lamhna is a woman who has championed natural heritage and biodiversity. There has been much fantastic work done, along with BirdWatch Ireland, on creating awareness, getting children involved and educating the young and old. Heritage week has had a big impact. There is fantastic work being done on that. Both delegates might like to comment on section 40. I would appreciate that.

Mr. Padraic Joyce

A question was asked on why we are emphasising road safety. Hedges are at their fullest in the month of August.

It is the time of year at which farmers do their harvesting work and when one will find there are more tractors on the road, with two or three exits from the one field. Accordingly, they could be completely closed off. August is also a time when there is more traffic on the roads because of tourism. Farmers are conscious that it poses a danger to a tractor driver, buses and cyclists. Briars can grow out by 1 m in one year and be a danger to somebody cycling on the road, for example.

Deputy Niamh Smyth

Like Deputy Seán Canney, I spent time as a member of a county council. During the open season we still did not get hedges cut. Is the IFA confident that with the extension of the cutting season we will see a massive improvement in that regard?

Mr. Gerry Gunning

One could have a limited number of contractors in a particular area. Land type is an issue if one has to cut infield. For example, in County Cavan there are many small and wet fields and the window for cutting is much narrower. The proposal seeks to broaden the base without compromising wildlife. As I said, it is not the case that every hedge will be cut every year. In the existing cutting window, a hedge might only be cut every four or five years. The window is too narrow as land conditions can be poor which affects cutting. In tillage areas crop yields suffer as a result of hedges growing into fields. Efficiency is of significant importance, particularly to tillage farmers. Their incomes are low and they practically depend on the basic payment for survival. We have to look at any impediment which affects their yields or ability to ensure maximum production from the land.

Deputy Niamh Smyth

Does the IFA have any measure in place to encourage hedgerow cutting within the existing timeframe? There are problems not just with weather conditions. Some landowners do not cut their hedges which creates road hazards.

Mr. Gerry Gunning

We have always observed the law. However, the existing window is too narrow in trying to secure the maximum management of hedgerows. We need the extra month.

Deputy Niamh Smyth

I do not deny that. I recall from county council meetings that we would be shouting about this and highlighting it in the media. Does the IFA have any measure in place to encourage farmers to engage in hedge-cutting?

Mr. Gerry Gunning

The IFA always observes the law. We might not like it, but we believe there is a need for change in this case. We support the amendment to the Heritage Bill.

Mr. Padraic Joyce

On inward growing hedgerows, if a farmer does not get around to cutting a hedgerow for five years, depending on weather conditions, it will grow out further. The farmer could then have a penalty imposed on his or her basic payment. If the window for cutting is extended, farmers will have a better chance to get the work done. Many farmers cannot afford to buy a hedge-cutter and have to get in a contractor who may work for many farmers and might not be able to get to cut all of the hedges required to be cut.

Mr. Pat Dunne

I spoke to a hedge cutting contractor recently who informed me that he did not have time in the period available to cut all of the hedges that he had been asked to cut. He said he would need to buy another tractor and hedge cutter at an enormous cost. Last week I saw the same man on the road at midnight cutting hedges. While he had warning beacons and so forth in place, this brings up health and safety issues, as well as questions about safe practice. He has to do that work because he cuts at every opportunity he gets. If the period was extended when daylight hours were longer, he would not have to cut at such hours.

Deputy Niamh Smyth

Why does section 40 not work?

Mr. Pat Dunne

The window is too short.

Mr. Gerry Gunning

For better hedgerow management and the environment, one should not have this massive rush. Much work is done in rural areas, including harvesting, silage cutting, etc. By reducing the window, to a degree, one is actually making the problem worse. The window is too narrow. We have pointed to safety concerns, but I know that Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell does not believe it is an issue.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

It was just a comment that it could be seen as an excuse or obfuscation.

Mr. Gerry Gunning

I do not think it is an excuse. Roads in rural areas are narrower and there are not many motorways in the west. Our view is that in extending the period, one would create more flexibility and an opportunity for farmers to manage their hedgerows in a better way.

Chairman

There is a mechanism in place whereby if a roadside is overgrown with hedges, an application can be made to the local authority to have the problem fixed. It is an onerous two-week application process which is a problem. If it was made less onerous, would it not be a useful step in the right direction?

Mr. Padraic Joyce

In dealing with local authorities how could one make it less onerous? The official to whom one has to apply to do this may be on holidays in August. I would not see it as a way forward.

Deputy Niamh Smyth

Does section 40 provide a mechanism to have it open all year round?

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

The reason it is not working is that if a farmer is getting land ready to be ploughed at the back end of September, some of the land is marginal and wet in the latter months of the year. In August, however, one has a better chance to have a hedge cut. If one were to try to cut a hedge now, one would not be able to bring a tractor into the land. At this time of year a farmer has to put down a flail or a saw head on a six or eight-tonne excavator. If not, they will not come out of the field. We have to get the work done a few weeks earlier for the simple reason that one has a better chance - not always but generally - of having drier land in August. There is an old saying in the countryside, "March brings breezes, loud and shrill, to stir the dancing daffodil". In March there is also a better chance the land will dry out quicker.

Chairman

The key point is that for 12 months of the year one can cut a roadside hedge, if necessary. How does one make it less onerous?

Deputy Niamh Smyth

The issue is: has section 40 actually worked?

Chairman

If it is believed it does not work, what steps need to be taken to resolve the issue? That is the question Deputy Niamh Smyth wants to have answered. Why is section 40 not working?

We do not know why it is not working, other than people being on holidays.

Mr. Gerry Gunning

I presume the local authorities have their reasons, but their representatives are not present to answer the question, which is appropriate to them. In our experience, there is bureaucracy. Let us be honest - in society at large there is a fear and a view that someone should not go near anything that will be bureaucratic because they will be pushed back.

We believe extending the period would ensure clarity on any other issue that might arise. For example, someone would not be going in in May. They would do it now and be given an extra month. As Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice mentioned, May is a drier month. As we pointed out in our submission, the days are brighter and longer. Someone mentioned how cutting in the depths of winter was not good for farmers or in terms of road safety. It is not even safe when farmers work on their own farms in darkness.

Chairman

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell may make a brief point.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

My point about health and safety may have sounded flippant. I was arguing it on the ground that it was rolled out all of the time when we should be discussing farmers' livelihoods and the use of energy and common sense. It is almost like a ritualistic rant - "It cannot be done because of health and safety" or "It must be done because of health and safety". It must be done for a thousand other reasons, including protecting livelihoods, the use of common sense and diversity. That is what I meant. It is about the use of common sense and energy and doing the right thing. It is not that I am against it.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

To follow up on Mr. Gunning's final remark, there is a problem in many local authorities. They have to talk to the likes of the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, and are often refused at other times of the year. In some counties there is a decision taken not to cut because it is too bureaucratic and farmers have been refused previously. For example, in Galway the local authority would not cut a hedge this year.

I thank the delegates for their presentations and the Chairman for allowing me to contribute. Do all of the delegates agree that there is a managed landscape? Do they agree that farmers in rural Ireland are the protectors of the environment when no one else is around?

Regarding controlled burning, I will throw out an idea that came to me. In certain areas, for example, commonages on mountains, it is undoubtedly difficult to make a living. Should there be rural social scheme, RSS, groups or the like in certain areas or counties to help in controlled burning using a meitheal? Could people involved in such groups be trained to help farmers? It would also provide employment in various areas and could be done on a co-op basis.

Everyone needs to understand the role of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine in this issue and it might be a good idea for the committee to contact that Department. An inspector comes to an area which is a managed landscape. If he or she finds a certain percentage of heather that is too long or that there is vegetation somewhere, the entire grant is removed. Do the farming organisations agree that this or another committee has to sort out that scenario?

People are jumping to conclusions on another matter. From everything I have heard, it is almost being suggested farmers are responsible for the burning. First things first - no one has been convicted. People are innocent until found guilty. Does Mr. Fogarty believe it was wise to have reported to the European Union that there had been 97 wildfires, 40% of which had been in designated areas? For the record, 80% of the land west of Lough Corrib is in designated areas, as in 35% of County Mayo. Unfortunately, most of the hilly regions where there have been fires are in designated areas, in which farmers are prevented from working. As was pointed out correctly, they cannot even put cattle or sheep on land without first obtaining clearance.

According to the Irish Wildlife Trust's complaint, hen harriers had been lost to wildfires. Mr. Fogarty also mentioned the curlew. I note that he is from Castleknock. Speaking as one of the committee members from rural Ireland, most of the hen harriers were drowned, which was unfortunate. When some so-called environmentalists decided that it would be better to let minks loose, they killed curlews. Rather than being visitor to rural Ireland on a Saturday and a Sunday and thinking we know it all, we should appreciate what farmers are doing. Working with them is the way forward. Reporting and trying to ensure their grants will be removed is not. No one engaged in the activity in question would be welcome in rural Ireland. For hundreds of years farmers have protected the landscape. It is not a great idea for a visitor on a Saturday and a Sunday to try to trump them and tell them what to do.

Mr. Pádraic Fogarty

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice asked whether I believed it had been wise to report to the European Commission. I do. It was the first time we had made such a complaint. There have been fires every year in recent times and they are devastating. Many of our members are from rural Ireland and live in all kinds of places. They are angry that this is happening because they see their landscape going up in smoke. We made a complaint based on the lack of Government support in protecting the habitats of these areas. The purpose of our campaigning and criticisms in recent years has always been to have changed policies such as the one Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice mentioned which requires vegetation to be grazable. That is probably the No. 1 problem being faced and the policy is something we would like to see changed.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Part of Mr. Fogarty's-----

Chairman

No interruptions, please.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Just one second-----

Chairman

I will allow the Deputy back in at the end.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Okay.

Mr. Pádraic Fogarty

It is an issue we have been raising for many years and on which we have not gained traction within the Government. As such, it was wise to complain to the European Commission.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Does Mr. Fogarty believe it was wise as part of the Irish Wildlife Trust's complaint to essentially say landowners had burned the land? I am open to correction, but I understand no farmer has been accused or convicted of burning land. It must be remembered that in rural Ireland we welcome tourists and other visitors. There is no proof that a fag butt was not thrown out a window near a forest. None of us condones the starting of fires, but judging by how the complaint was phrased, it was aimed at farmers, which was not a sensible thing to do.

Chairman

It is up to him, but Mr. Fogarty does not have to respond.

Mr. Pádraic Fogarty

It would be naive to believe farmers were not starting fires. I have no idea of how many or the level at which they are being started, but we do know what is happening from the people who have contacted us. We have come out publicly against the idea-----

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Mr. Fogarty should not repeat to us what is hearsay. He is not an-----

Chairman

Will the Deputy, please, allow Mr. Fogarty to continue?

Mr. Pádraic Fogarty

We have stated publicly that we are not in favour of collective punishment. We do not like the idea of everyone losing payments because of the criminal actions of one person.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Do all of the delegates agree with that statement?

Chairman

There is only one minute left and a number of people are trying to get in.

Mr. Pat Dunne

I want to follow up on that point. Our position is that everybody is entitled to due process. Nobody can assume that anybody is going out and lighting these fires unless it is proven they have done so. It is absolutely crazy to say one person on the commonage is doing it. It might be somebody who has nothing to do with the commonage.

Chairman

Does anybody else-----

Mr. Pat Dunne

As I am speaking, I will discuss Deputy Fitzmaurice's suggestion on rural social scheme, RSS, workers. It is a very good idea and it is something we in Wicklow uplands council have been pushing for a long time. As part of a burning group, RSS workers, or whatever they are known as nowadays, could be brought in and given proper training so they could assist farmers with the burning. In our opinion, this is the way forward.

Mr. Padraic Joyce

To answer Mr. Fogarty, because of the complaint he made to the EU Commission, it is coming near Christmas and many farmers have not received their basic payment, which is their livelihood, and the Chairman spoke about this in his opening address. I want to make the committee aware that two things can start a fire. I saw it quite close to my place last year. Mr. Fogarty may have noticed that fires normally start along a roadside. I spoke earlier about dumping along roads. If glass has been dumped, and if the grass has withered off, it can start a fire with heat. As Deputy Fitzmaurice said, cigarette butts thrown out of cars will start a fire. No farmer has been brought to court for starting a fire because farmers do not start fires.

Mr. Pádraic Fogarty

The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine restrictions did not come in on foot of the complaint we made. We made a complaint to the European Commission that nothing is being done. That complaint only went in very recently. We have, of course, been making general complaints about wildfires. If we believe these fires are being started by bits of broken glass, we are fooling ourselves. They are not being started by broken glass. They are being started deliberately. Whether it is by vandals or whoever, that is how they are being started. It may be cigarette butts but not bits of broken glass.

Mr. Joe Condon

To answer Deputy Fitzmaurice's question on whether we agree we come from managed landscapes, it has been academically shown that heather moorland has evolved due to a combination of burning and grazing. This is key to the argument. Traditionally and historically, this is how the area has evolved. It would be scrubland other than this. It needs continual burning and grazing. It is up to the State, and us here today, to come up with solutions as to how this can be managed.

The land of many of the farmers we represent is actually managed for grouse as a grouse habitat. Without burning there is no such thing as grouse habitat, because various levels of heather height are required to suit the bird. Farmers are caught in a bind. They are caught agriculturally, whereby the amount of stock they can keep on these areas is limited, and they are also limited from a heritage perspective as to what they can do with regard to burning. It is a straitjacket.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

What about an RSS scheme?

Mr. Joe Condon

Earlier, we proposed that the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, be properly funded to establish a burning scheme, similar to the NPWS farm plan that was in existence. The NPWS would need to be properly funded to have this.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Does Mr. Fogarty believe the amount of designation is good? Is it 80% west of Lough Corrib? It is a burden on farmers' land, and we have letters to prove they cannot get money from a bank to allow the next generation to continue. Does he think it is a good idea that those farmers are being left high and dry, and the burden of the designation on them, whereby they cannot farm their land to its potential, means they are now left with nothing in the line of extra compensation? There is a major problem. This is why many farmers are right to tell the State something - I will not say the word here.

Mr. Pádraic Fogarty

I totally agree with the Deputy. It is a disastrous situation that we have come to, whereby we see protecting nature as being burden. I know that is how it is seen. That is a price we all pay. The reason for this is because of a series of awful policy failures that have made plantations of conifers more valuable than traditional farming and does not reward properly the farmers in these areas. This comes directly from the policies pursued by successive Governments over the past 20 or 30 years. I agree that it is a total disaster.

Chairman

We all live on the one island, and whether we come from Castleknock or west of the Corrib, we all have a stake in the island and it is important to say this. It is clear that farmers need to be able to make a living. This is massively true. It is also clear the flora and fauna of this country have been hammered massively. Even in the past generation, there has been a radical change from where we were in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s with regard to the biodiversity of the country. This is also a major point. In my view, it is clear there is a lot of combat in this particular space. I am not speaking about the room but the ideas and views on this issue. We probably need to come at this far more from a position of partnership if we can in future. The Bill will not go near any of the difficulties that are being experienced by hill farmers and lowland farmers, and far more work needs to be done to fix the issues the witnesses have been considering.

I thank the witnesses very much for their presentations today, and the contribution they have made to the debate. We appreciate them coming along.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.05 p.m. and adjourned at 4.30 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 5 December 2017.