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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC REGULATORY AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 14 Oct 2008

Role and Functions: Discussion with Financial Regulator.

The next item of business is a discussion on the role of the Financial Regulator. I welcome Mr. Patrick Neary, chief executive officer, Ms Mary O'Dea, consumer director, Ms Mary Burke, head of banking supervision, and Mr. Con Horan, prudential director. I remind delegates that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. Neary to make a presentation, after which we will have a question and answer session. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Patrick Neary

I thank the Chairman and members for their invitation to address them as a representative of the board of the Financial Regulator. I am joined by my colleagues, Ms Mary O'Dea, Mr. Con Horan and Ms Mary Burke.

I address the joint committee in extraordinary times. We are witnessing the greatest crisis in the international financial system in living memory. It has affected not only every financial institution but every economy, business and household throughout the world. It demands and is receiving a response on an international scale, as well as on a domestic level. None of us should deny the scale of the crisis and the regulatory challenge it presents.

I propose to set out how we have responded to the international crisis and how we have been working together with our colleagues in the Central Bank and the Department of Finance. I will outline how we have been responding to the changing economic environment here at home and what this means for our banks and our supervision of them. I will detail some of the new measures that we are putting in place to ensure our financial institutions are in a position to assist their customers, the businesses and households that depend on them for their finance, and to deal with the dual problems of the international crisis and the domestic economic downturn.

The action by the Government to introduce a State guarantee was taken to deal with the enormous crisis that the world is facing in respect of funding and liquidity. Liquidity means the cash available for banks to meet their day-to-day operations, including loans and payments. The turmoil in global financial markets can be traced back to early 2007. In August of last year, central banks around the world began to inject significant additional liquidity into the system. This was done to help alleviate the problems that were emerging in capital markets due to losses on securities linked to US subprime mortgages. Since that time, due to problems in the subprime market and the ensuing global liquidity shortage, there have been a number of serious problems in banks such as Northern Rock, Bear Stearns, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and so on.

Over this period of about 15 months, the interbank and wholesale funding market deteriorated. As the international situation got worse in the latter half of 2007, we increased our surveillance of the liquidity position of Irish banks. This initiative built on arrangements we already had put in place earlier that year, in advance of the turmoil, to strengthen the regulatory structure. This ensured that Irish banks already had in place strong liquidity reserves. Other actions we took included an increase in the frequency of liquidity reporting, from quarterly to weekly and, more recently, to daily. Along with the Central Bank we ensured that each of our banks had sufficient arrangements made to access ECB funding. With the Central Bank, we also intensified our engagement with the chief executives of every bank. The focus of these engagements was to ensure proper contingency arrangements were being put in place in these very challenging global market conditions.

While the situation remained manageable, everything changed in mid-September with the collapse of Lehman Brothers. The markets, which previously had only been working at a fraction of their capacity, froze. This meant that no interbank or international wholesale term funding was available for either Irish or international banks. Put simply, without this type of liquidity, banks cannot function without government action.

No regulatory authority, including the Financial Regulator, central bank or any other part of the international financial system anticipated the scale of the meltdown in international markets or the dismantling of the interbank credit markets that arose from the collapse of Lehman Brothers. One thing, however, was clear, namely, the ability of all banks, including Irish banks, to raise other than very short-term funding in the market essentially was eliminated. The fear in the market caused large corporate deposits to move out of the banking system and seek the safety of sovereign instruments.

In the run up to the Government decision, we were engaged in an intensive dialogue with the Central Bank and the Department of Finance. A dialogue on these systemic issues had begun in 2007 with the establishment of the domestic standing group. All relevant options were considered by the board of the regulatory authority and the advice to the Government was to proceed with the guarantee proposal. The action by the Government was taken in order that Irish banks had access to sufficient liquidity. Capital of itself would not have dealt with this situation. The problem was liquidity. The guarantee was the best way of ensuring that international funds flowed back into the Irish banks.

We believe this was the correct thing to do in the interest of avoiding serious economic disruption in the State. While the measure has proven successful in that it has stabilised the funding situation, market conditions remain extremely difficult. We continue to be on high alert. This is particularly important as we see very clearly how each international event sends ripples across the world. Our Government acted quickly and decisively. Other European governments have since followed suit with their own approaches, many very similar to that in Ireland. In Washington at the weekend, the IMF stated that government guarantees of financial liabilities were unavoidable at this stage to allow activity restart in the markets. Overnight we have seen the US Government initiative to give a blanket guarantee for all deposits and to invest regulatory capital in a number of its leading banks.

A question that has arisen is whether the loan exposures of Irish banks that are ultimately secured on property has contributed to the liquidity problems the banks faced before the Government guarantee was put in place. The global systemic failure in capital markets leading to the closedown of international interbank markets clearly is the main contributor to the lack of available funding. However, although Irish banks do not have exposures to the subprime losses and have had limited contact with so-called toxic products, the decline in share prices of the quoted Irish banks is being attributed by market commentators to the decline in the economic position here and the consequent prospects for both commercial and construction-related lending ultimately secured on property.

The Financial Regulator had been alert to this concern for some time and has already taken significant action. In 2006 and 2007, in response to the emerging issues in the property market, we took a number of measures aimed directly at speculative commercial real estate loans and high loan-to-value ratio mortgages, especially 100% mortgages. We required banks to set aside much more capital with regard to these types of loan. We also disapplied a number of options for lower capital weighting which were available under the capital requirements directive. Our capital regime is thus one of the more stringent in Europe.

The extent to which profits will be adequate to sustain capital levels in Irish banks depends on the level of the provisions arising from those property-related exposures and also on dividend policies. There will be losses on property-related loans and increased provisions and write-offs will be necessary. The potential difficulties in this regard are linked to how the economy unfolds.

What we can say is that all Irish banks are currently above their regulatory capital requirements, with average regulatory capital ratios of almost 11%, compared with a European required minimum of 8%. In practice, what does this mean? This means the six Irish banks covered by the scheme have a total regulatory capital base of €42 billion. This figure takes account of provisions of €2.1 billion against impaired loans totalling €3.6 billion.

Speculative lending to construction and property development in Ireland amounts to €39.1 billion, of which €24 billion is supported by additional collateral or alternative sources of cashflow and realisable security. This leaves a balance of €15 billion secured directly on the underlying property. There will undoubtedly be some losses on these exposures. However, any such losses would occur over a number of years and would be offset by profits on performing loans over the same period.

In other countries we have seen individual banks being given substantial capital injections by governments, and in the UK we have seen the whole sector being offered public money to bolster their balance sheets. I have already mentioned what happened overnight in the US.

We must be mindful that the rules of the game are changing internationally. Some countries are guaranteeing all bank deposits and interbank lending, while some are putting equity into banks. Market expectations could push other banks to seek equity injections, irrespective of whether they continue to meet their regulatory requirements.

The point is that the state is now intervening in the banking sector across the world. As the committee knows, at the weekend the governments of the euro area committed to make capital available to financial institutions in appropriate volume while favouring the raising of private capital. Markets need the stability that state intervention can bring but it is not possible to say at this point where that state intervention will take us, what impact it will have on the interbank market or whether further action, for example with regard to capital, might be necessary to ensure the liquidity of Irish banks. I assure the committee we are all highly focused on this.

Whereas we have been heavily involved in devising the Government scheme, we must await the approval of the scheme by Government and its presentation to the Oireachtas before I can go into specific detail on its elements. In addition to what is contained in the scheme, the regulatory authority is instigating a series of new regulatory measures to take account of the changed environment — one that has now brought the taxpayer into the frame. We will be increasing our focus on the management of credit and liquidity risks of the banks.

Among the actions we are taking are the following: we will immediately recruit an additional 20 senior supervisory staff with banking experience to be placed on-site in key banks to monitor developments; we are now requiring banks to set out new business plans focusing on the need to reduce their risk profile and how their models of banking are sustainable in the new environment; and there will be enhanced reporting obligations regarding capital, asset quality and individual large loans to supplement our daily liquidity reporting requirements. In addition, there will be a number of other measures announced by the Minister as part of the guarantee scheme.

Like all banking regulators, our job is one of ensuring that banks are solvent in order to protect depositors and savers. This remains our job. I believe it is important to state that all banks are solvent and that all savings and deposits are fully safe and secure. Since the guarantee scheme was put in place we have a new responsibility to protect the taxpayers' interest in our main financial institutions. The Government's scheme, which will underpin the guarantee, will give us a key role in safeguarding these interests. As always I can assure the committee, on behalf of the regulatory authority, that we will continue to fully play our part in the public interest.

I welcome Mr. Neary and thank him for appearing before the joint committee. This is the first time we have seen him in the Oireachtas since the crisis occurred.

My first question pertains to the proposals made in Mr. Neary's opening comments on requiring banks to set aside more capital for their loans and recruiting an additional 20 supervisory staff with banking experience. These new measures appear to be more closely related to banks than to customers, which is the reason we got into trouble in the first place. I wonder why these are the first items on his agenda. He also set out proposals on enhanced reporting obligations in regard to capital asset quality and new business plans which focus on the need to reduce risk profiles. At the end of the day, however, we come back to the customers who took out the teaser 100% mortgages at low interest rates for one year. At the outset they were able to meet their monthly repayments but in the circumstances that now prevail, they are unable to manage. This suggests that, contrary to the advertisements on buses which portray the Financial Regulator as protecting people, it is protecting the liquidity and solvency of financial institutions.

It was suggested at last weekend's meeting of EU Heads of State that a change should be made to accounting standards in order that banks would not have to revalue assets to show their current true value. I understand that in the early 1990s Sweden forced banks to write down assets at an early stage, whereas Japan let matters stand and waited several years before writing down its assets. Mr. Neary stated: "Any such losses would occur over a number of years and would be offset by profits on performing loans over the same period," which indicates he is taking the Japanese rather than the Swedish approach. Sweden came through its problems with some losses but they were nowhere near as significant as Japan's. However, Mr. Neary's comments tend towards a preference for a longer term diminution of assets and flatter profits or losses.

Small and medium-sized enterprises are especially feeling the pinch. Banks appear to be taking an unmerciful approach to these companies, particularly to subcontractors associated with the construction industry. The forecast is that 90,000 jobs will be lost in the construction industry in 2008 and 2009. Is there any way the banks could take some responsibility for what has happened and assuage in some way the problems encountered in this regard?

On the elephant in the room, while I am in no way suggesting that Mr. Neary should resign, there exists in the public domain questions in this regard. Perhaps Mr. Neary will outline for the committee the reasons he believes he should not resign.

I, too, welcome the Financial Regulator and his colleagues to the meeting in what are, as he described, extraordinary times. There has been much comment and discussion on the need to ensure we have public interest representatives at the heart of banking. It is hoped the scheme, when operational, will provide for this.

Does Mr. Neary believe there exists a need to fundamentally reform the regulatory structure? Now that the taxpayer is providing a guarantee, will he agree that the distinction between prudential supervision and consumer protection is redundant and that prudential supervision has merely gained a consumer protection dimension?

Despite the announcement of the guarantee scheme a few weeks ago it has not yet been introduced. Presumably, the six institutions identified by the Minister for Finance for inclusion in the scheme have had a substantial inflow of funds during that period. In this regard, perhaps Mr. Neary will outline the full amounts of the inflow of funds to the six institutions concerned since 30 September. Will he also outline from where the funds came and what measures has the Financial Regulator taken to ensure extra regulatory supervision of these institutions, given the abundance of riches that has befallen them since the announcement of the scheme? Concern has been expressed that some institutions have, perhaps, behaved inappropriately since 30 September and that they may not have been subjected to adequate regulatory control and detailed supervision since then. I am interested to hear what Mr. Neary has to say in this regard.

Will the State be exposed to any claim for damages from financial institutions that can prove they suffered an outflow of funds as a consequence of their exclusion from the original scheme? Given current circumstances and in light of section 7 of the Credit Institutions (Financial Support) Bill 2008, as passed by the Oireachtas, is there a need for a national champion and an amalgamation of the two largest banks in the State? Does Mr. Neary believe, given the superior knowledge available to him rather than to us, that the State should take a stake in the banks or does he believe the scheme, of which we have not yet had sight, is sufficient to protect the public interest?

I welcome the delegation to the meeting. I have only one question. Did the Financial Regulator see the current financial crisis coming?

I, too, have only one question for Mr. Neary. What job has he done right since the introduction of the euro?

I have listened to what the Financial Regulator had to say. When he addressed this committee on 29 April I asked the following:

If a downturn occurs in the construction sector and there is potential for defaulting on loans, does that leave the banking sector vulnerable? Is there a role for the regulator in that regard in seeking to modify the behaviour of banks in terms of the way they loan to their customers in the future?

Aside from other questions I asked on the day, the response I got to that particular question from Mr. Neary was as follows:

There is no evidence that lending for speculative property development starved other sectors of resources. I have no sense of that happening but will reflect on the question and, if there is any evidence that it has taken place, I will revert to the Deputy with a reply.

The Financial Regulator's submission to the joint committee on 29 April when we dealt with the exposure of Northern Rock is remarkably different from its submission today. I put it to Mr. Neary that he has failed in his task, that at best the regulatory regime was very weak and that ultimately the cost for those seriously exposed will fall to the taxpayer. At what point did he telephone the Minister for Finance to set alarm bells ringing about the banking crisis bound to unfold, in the light of the information now available, in terms of the exposure of Irish banks? He must have known about this, as he must have had his ear to the ground and, if not, why not?

Following on from Deputy Ardagh's question, I would be more blunt. Is Mr. Neary's position untenable? If not, does he think the measures he is proposing will give solace to those with 35 year 100% mortgages who are seriously exposed in the current climate? Does he believe the European regulatory framework is a proper regulatory framework? Does he believe one regulator per country acting unilaterally is not the way to go? The only way to deal with the crisis — we do not know what will happen tomorrow — is through a cross-compliance structure, an inter-European regulatory framework, whereby all member states would subscribe to the same set of rules. In the absence of such a structure, the euro is under threat. On 30 September the Government acted in what it termed as the country's best interest but it could be argued that it acted unilaterally. Others followed suit but now the game has changed in the light of the United Kingdom's intervention.

I do not understand how such a level of borrowing was allowed to continue. Mr. Neary will have to explain to the joint committee why the banks were able to lend money hand over fist without anybody putting a halt to it or without political responsibility. Perhaps it is a fact that he did not communicate with the Minister for Finance. If he did to set alarm bells ringing, we would like to hear how and when it was done.

I thank the Deputy. I invite the delegates to respond to the five members who have posed questions. I shall then take questions from the other members present.

Mr. Patrick Neary

I have noted the questions asked and hope I will not omit any of them.

I take Deputy Ardagh's point and will ask Ms O'Dea to respond on the new measures being orientated more towards the banks rather than customers. We assert prudential supervision gives primary protection to customers in the sense that it is focused on protecting depositors and savers. This is done by ensuring banks are solvent and have adequate capital to absorb any losses and able to meet their obligations as they fall due and, therefore, can accept deposits from the public with a fair degree of assurance that those deposits will be safe. In that sense one could assert that prudential measures such as those being discussed have a customer consumer protection element but it is an indirect link. It is not the same as the codes of conduct that apply to customers directly and the way in which banks deal with customers when selling financial products to them. Ms O'Dea will develop that point.

On the question of recruiting people with banking experience, the entire world has moved to a new place. The challenges that have descended upon us need to be addressed by very experienced people. Given the existing portfolios of Irish banks, there may well be a need for further provisions and write-downs. It is appropriate that seasoned and experienced bankers be brought on board to deal with these issues to help us to police the operation of the scheme and address structural issues, where necessary.

Ms Mary O’Dea

The thrust of prudential supervision is to protect the consumer. When we talk about people with banking experience, we are talking about people who understand the intricacies of credit risk because to be able to supervise the bank in a way that protects depositors one must understand what is going on in it. These are the skills about which we are talking. That is not say such people are not entirely driven by the public interest because, obviously, persons with that type of experience who work for the Financial Regulator are public interest employees. What they would be doing is protecting customers' and depositors' interests. We see no conflict between the two.

In regard to such issues as teaser mortgages, we see ourselves as protecting the person in the street. That is why we introduced the consumer protection code in 2007. The code contains a number of specifics regarding mortgages, in particular, that do not apply in other countries. We have, for example, a provision that states that when a person is sold a mortgage, that mortgage must be suitable for that person. That is a provision one often sees on the investment side but one does not see it in regard to lending. It is an unusual provision for us to have but we believe it is appropriate.

Before the code came into effect, we wrote to financial institutions to ask about their current practices and how they intended to amend them. In our correspondence with and inspections of firms we highlighted the issue of teaser mortgages. In implementing the part of the code relating to suitability, therefore, affordability did not mean only affordability today. If one sells a teaser mortgage today, one must assess its affordability not alone on the day it is sold but over its lifetime. There are a number of other provisions in the code. One must, therefore, know the client, know his or her financial situation and sell a product that is suitable. Equally, there is an obligation in the code that requires all lenders to immediately inform customers if they have fallen into arrears and of the consequences in order that they are in a position to contact their financial provider and reschedule payments in some way. Although a mortgage may have been suitable at the time it was sold, we are in a recession and people's circumstances may change, for example, if they lose their job. We are engaged in inspecting and examining arrears policies across all lenders. In that context, we have looked at the reasons people fall into arrears with a view to trying to identify such customers at an early stage in order that they will be in a better position.

One of the consequences of the financial crisis across the world is that there is already much less competition in the mortgage market and that is likely to continue. What we must do is help consumers to make the most of what competition there is. However, one of the side effects of the consolidation across the globe is less competition for consumers.

Mr. Patrick Neary

Deputy Ardagh referred to the weekend meeting of EU Heads of State and, in particular, their determinations on the accounting provisions for the writing down of assets. They tried to impress on those who set the standards the need to facilitate, where possible, companies which were reluctant to mark assets to market. That ties in with the IFRS accounting standards which apply in this country to assets which are held to maturity and on a going concern basis. If these assets are being serviced, repayments are being met and arrangements are in place to maintain the currency of the assets, the accounting standards bodies should not demand that they be written off. On the other hand, where it is clear that an exposure is tied with an asset and the sole recourse of that exposure is to an asset which the market clearly judges to be impaired, there is no choice but to write down the asset to market value. What they say is not inconsistent with what I said, to the effect that, when assets originated by banks are intended to be held until maturity, serviced and repaid over a number of years, one must call into question the policy of breaking the cycle and calling for a revaluation of assets that continue to perform.

The point made about the respective approaches of Japan and Sweden was fair. Sweden took a more direct approach but I do not want to speculate because I am not fully familiar with the differences between the two. When the guarantee was introduced to the House, the Government stressed the need to avoid starving small and medium-sized businesses of resources in reaction to the current crisis, even though, on the other hand, banks have been accused of lending too much.

I am here as a public servant representing the authority, the full support of which I enjoy. My duty is to act in the public interest at all times and I will continue to do so as long as the authority asks me to do so. Senator Coghlan raised the question of prudential supervision as against consumer protection and asked if the previous divide in this respect was disappearing. As I said in response to Deputy Ardagh, we have always viewed prudential supervision as the first level of protection for consumers.

Ms Mary O’Dea

Far from being redundant, prudential supervision increases the profile of consumer protection. We protect consumers using prudential supervision and depositors are protected in this new environment of the guarantee, but we must be very conscious of how the institutions which benefit from the guarantee treat their customers. The focus on this area has been rehoned and we expect the financial institutions concerned to fully comply with all parts of the consumer protection code.

Mr. Patrick Neary

I skipped one of Senator Coghlan's questions about reform of the regulatory structure. There must be a review of international regulatory structures. The difficulties which have emerged have spread across the globe. In every EU member state we have seen casualties arising from the meltdown, to the extent that the regulatory model in place across Europe needs to be revisited. I believe we would want to be part of and contribute to this. I have an open mind on reform of the regulatory structure. It would be a very good debate to have to see what lessons have been learned and what amendments or adjustments are necessary.

Senator Coghlan also asked me about inflows and the source of funds. I apologise. I do not have the detail with me but will submit it immediately after this meeting. I do know there were substantial inflows of funds and that outflows stopped. The intervention by the Government corrected the flows. However, I do not have the specific data the Senator required. I will come back to the committee immediately after the meeting.

I did not quite understand the Senator's question about claims for damages. I ask him to repeat it.

I am talking about institutions which were not included until later and the losses they may have suffered if funds flowed from them to the original six named institutions. Would they be in a position to pursue a claim?

Mr. Patrick Neary

I do not know. That is a matter I would have to refer to the Department of Finance. It was a Government decision.

They were deliberately excluded from the initial scheme but, after a delay, were included. Is there a question of a level playing pitch and so on?

Mr. Patrick Neary

I have no real concern that any institution will claim damages. However, I do not know the answer to the Senator's question. I will have to reflect on it and see if I can get an answer for him.

The amalgamation of the two banks and the emergence of a national champion are very extensive questions and well beyond the reach of the regulatory authority. All kinds of questions come into play in addressing them, including competitive issues and the extent to which an entity comprising the two largest banks would become a dominant player in the market and reduce competition and, perhaps, choice. They are very complicated questions. On the other hand, we are in a new world. Speaking from the point of view of the regulatory authority, we must keep an open mind to all possibilities and facilitate, to the extent possible, market solutions to the problem we face. Nothing is ruled in or out, from the regulatory authority's point of view, but there may be other barriers to that proposition being fulfilled.

As to whether the State should take a stake, we see how different models are unfolding across Europe and we might make a comparison with our neighbours. The Government went ahead with its guarantee which was successful and achieved the objective of bringing liquidity into the system. The UK Government went about getting the same result through a different combination of measures, including taking investments of a regulatory capital nature, giving a guarantee to depositors up to £50,000 and guaranteeing the interbank market. However, the point of it all was to ensure UK banks would be able to attract liquidity. One must consider where the economy will end up and where banks the portfolios of which have a property exposure will lead us over time. It may be that banks will have to raise additional capital and at that stage the State may want to become involved. That is a possibility and I would not rule it out. I cannot give a definitive opinion.

Deputy Kelly asked if we saw this coming. I do not think any regulator anywhere across the globe saw this meltdown and its proportions coming. There have been casualties in every country. It began in the United States but every European country has had casualties and every European government has had to invest huge amounts of money in solving the problem. Therefore, the answer is "No"; nobody saw this coming or foresaw the scale of the international crisis.

Deputy Cuffe asked what we had done right since the introduction of the euro. That is a far-reaching question. Following its establishment in 2003 the regulatory authority set out its strategic plan clearly. The plan detailed everything the authority would do and it was widely circulated. There was engagement with all stakeholders and the plan was laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. It was approved by everyone. I think we have achieved all of the objectives set out in it.

Deputy Sherlock asked whether it was time to modify the behaviour of banks. He referred to something of which we had spoken previously: evidence that speculative development had starved other sectors. I still hold the view that other sectors were not starved but were very well serviced. Deputy Ardagh has expressed concern that from now on the small and medium business sector should not be starved at the expense of speculative sectors. I fully agree. A significant part of the Government initiative is to ensure credit is available to small and medium businesses to allow them to go about their work.

A concern was expressed as to whether the Financial Regulator was up to the task and the extent to which alarm bells were ringing. As I said, no regulatory authority anywhere foresaw the depth and impact of the recession. Having said that, if we wind back the clock to August 2007 when the seeds were sown and the first defaults occurred relating to securities backed by sub-prime mortgages, we will see that the domestic standing group was established at that stage. That group includes senior representatives of the Central Bank and the Department of Finance. Mr. Horan is our senior representative in the group and all of these issues were raised within it. All of these matters were on the table at the highest official level and contingency arrangements were put in place to deal with them, including crisis planning, ensuring there was access to the European Central Bank and so on.

On a point of order, Mr. Neary said in his statement to the committee that speculative lending to the construction and property sectors amounted to €39.1 billion, of which €24 billion was supported by additional collateral or alternative sources of cashflow. This leaves a balance of €15 billion secured directly on the underlying property. Correct me if I am wrong, but this potentially leaves the taxpayer exposed to a guarantee of €15 billion if the loans are defaulted on. At what point was this information known to Mr. Neary? Has it only come to light in the past week or so or was it known some months ago?

My main question for the Financial Regulator is what relationship does it share with the Central Bank and the Minister for Finance? It must have known much earlier that things were not going according to plan and that they were not right in the banking sector. What mechanisms have been used by the regulator? Mr. Neary is using certain language and it is hard to argue vociferously against him. He seems to be genuine regarding what he was trying to achieve. I am worried that the Financial Regulator did not bang the table enough, if I may put it that way, in its interactions with the Central Bank and the Department of Finance and that this is part of the crisis.

Mr. Patrick Neary

I share the Deputy's concern. The figure of €15 billion relates to lending secured directly on the properties in question. However, I ask the Deputy to relate this figure to the capital buffer to absorb it. In other words, this €15 billion will first be charged against the regulatory capital buffer of €42 billion. Moreover, this assumes that every cent of the €15 billion would have to be written down. It would only be at this stage, once the €42 billion was absorbed, that we would get into a situation where the charge would fall to the taxpayer.

I have addressed questions regarding my position in my response to Deputy Ardagh. I will ask my colleague, Ms O'Dea, to respond on the question of what solace we can offer to holders of 100% mortgages.

I agree with the Deputy's points regarding the EU regulatory framework, the interaction between regulators and the importance of ensuring we all play to the same set of rules. He is correct in saying what has happened will call for a major rethink of the regulatory structures in Europe, how they are established, how they function and how information flows between them. That represents a greater challenge for larger countries where banks and financial institutions have a much greater reach across Europe. In the case of Ireland, by contrast, the activities of our banks extend only into two other member states, the United Kingdom and Poland. We have close working relationships with the regulators in these states, with frequent contact and meetings. However, I agree absolutely that all these questions will have to be addressed in the aftermath of recent developments.

Ms Mary O’Dea

It is awful for home owners to find themselves in a position of negative equity, regardless of whether they took out 100% mortgages or saved hard to cover some of the purchase price from their own resources. We warned consumers about this possibility in our publications relating to mortgages. It is for customers to make a judgment on how much they are prepared to pay for their dream home, but we worked hard to ensure people were well informed of the consequences of their mortgage decisions.

As I said, it is ultimately a question of affordability and suitability. In extending a mortgage to a customer the lender must determine the suitability requirement by taking account of the size of the loan, the term of its repayment and the loan to value ratio. Since last year, there is a legal obligation on the lender to comply with these requirements. It would be better if the code had been in place 20 or 25 years ago, but we introduced it as soon as we could. If individual customers are of the view that they were missold a mortgage, they have recourse to a statutory ombudsman who will decide, on the basis of the statutory code, whether a breach has taken place.

I welcome the delegates. Mr. Neary referred to the capital buffer of €42 billion and stated speculative lending to property developers amounted to €39.1 billion, of which €24 billion was supported by additional collateral and the balance by the underlying property. The fundamental problem is that the markets do not accept that the valuation of €24 billion will be realised. In this context, can Mr. Neary state the banks are solvent? Is there a need for the guarantee scheme to be followed by capital injections in the banks?

Second, what percentage of the banks' loan books are accounted for by the aforementioned figure of €2.1 billion? Third, Mr. Neary has mentioned that Irish banks have "average regulatory capital ratios of almost 11%, compared with a European required minimum of 8%". However, we now are in a completely different environment. In England, as Mr. Neary is probably aware, figures of 9% and 12% are being sought on tier one and tier two, respectively. If one considers the sum of €42 billion to constitute 8%, a very minor write-down on property developments would mean the banks would be insolvent. Are they technically insolvent?

I am working on the premise that a sound banking sector is desired. However, there is no flow of liquidity to ordinary mortgage holders or business people and unless that money flows, the economy will stagnate. That is not happening. In addition, four key players are missing from this meeting, namely, the Department of Finance and its Minister, the Governor of the Central Bank and the head of the National Treasury Management Agency. Members are only being provided with a minute element of the picture in respect of the Government guarantee scheme and a reality check is required. While we need a sound banking system, we must deal with what faces us. Does Mr. Neary believe the proposed guarantee scheme is sufficient to provide a robust system?

In the light of what has happened, I seek Mr. Neary's comments on his own financial stability report, published last November, in which it was stated, "The health of the banking system remains robust when measured by the usual indicators: solvency, profitability, liquidity asset quality and market indicators". The facts do not bear this out. As for the future, does Mr. Neary believe there is an immediate requirement for a capital injection into the banking sector to keep it viable?

I thank Mr. Neary for his attendance at what is a difficult time for him. I do not hold the same view as some of my colleagues in that I believe he should resign. Moreover, he should have resigned some time ago. The reason is that it is very important that the Financial Regulator have the confidence of the people above everything else. It is obvious that he does not have the essential confidence that is necessary. The market investors in the banks have completely lost confidence in him, as have the banks' depositors. Both groups have been voting with their feet. Investors have been selling their shares and depositors, certainly up to Monday fortnight last, were moving their deposits out of the banks as fast as they could to anywhere but those banks of which Mr. Neary is in charge. The only people who appear to have confidence in Mr. Neary are the bankers and property developers of this country.

Were such sentiments only coming from me, Mr. Neary would not need to worry too much. However, the criticisms of him are coming from everywhere. In an article in today's edition of The Irish Times Mr. Michael Casey who worked in the Central Bank and is on the board of the International Monetary Fund states:

The Financial Regulator and Central Bank should have been more proactive at a much earlier stage in cooling the ardour of the property market. Even without the interest rate instrument there were several things which could have been done, ranging from moral suasion, to insisting on prudent loan-to-income and loan-to-property price ratios, from raising risk weightings for property to insisting on more diversified loan books within the banks.

He continues to make a key point about one of the problems Mr. Neary has inherited and of which he is part, by stating, "Close relationships between regulators and banks — difficult to avoid in a small country — will have to be ended". The evidence is clear that the close relationship between the regulator and the banks is too cosy to be comfortable. Mr. Neary has often enunciated this point himself by stating he is not in favour of a highly regulated or rules-based system, but of a principles-based system. When asked for a definition, it is stated this allows "each regulated financial service provider to determine for itself how best to abide by regulatory requirements". To me that is a licence to give all the cowboys in the banks freedom to do exactly what they like, when they like, within fairly loose rules. It is a laissez-faire attitude.

The statement, from two years ago, continues "We will seek to implement rules to the minimum extent necessary". That is why all this has happened, as the rules were being implemented to the minimum extent necessary. There is plenty of evidence to support this. Mr. Neary will be aware of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report from around two years ago which was very critical of the Financial Regulator. It stated the regulator was 30% off target for its own stated inspection target of banks. I believe the figures were one in four, or a 25% target. The regulator came in at 17%. According to the tables in the report, in the same year there were no unscheduled visits to the banks at all. In other words, spot checks did not happen.

These guys were running rings around the regulator, which is one of the great difficulties. In the period since Mr. Neary has been in office, apart from the Irish Nationwide fine of last week — which I suggest is in a completely different category because of the new events — I do not believe the Financial Regulator has fined the banks for any reason. Sanctions were brought against many smaller groups of people, such as intermediaries, insurance brokers and people like that. Rightfully, they were seen to be in trouble. The banks seem to have got away without any sanctions during the period, although the powers were given to the regulator to impose sanctions by the 2006 Act.

At the same time, the Financial Services Authority in the UK fined their banks £20 million. The difficulty we appear to be facing is that the thesis that the Financial Regulator is very close to the banks seems borne out by evidence. They seemed to be untouchables until very recently. I do not know of any instance where the regulator used its authority to stop particular candidates taking director positions in banks, which is also within the regulator's power. I do not remember the regulator revoking a banking licence. It seems that the thesis that the Financial Regulator is so close to the banks is unanswerable, which is the reason the banks have been allowed to run riot in this crisis and lend to property developers willy-nilly.

I know Mr. Neary has been dealing with these matters for 36 years, working with the Central Bank initially and then IFSRA and the Financial Regulator, but he is part of a tradition of these bodies being too close to Irish banks. The evidence is there in what we are seeing today.

I have two other queries. The consumer panel, which sits independently, stated in the last report quoted in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report that "We have seen very little evidence in the year under review that the Financial Regulator has had the resolve to stand up to some institutions and individuals who are misbehaving". That is an independent group, set up to look at what the regulator is doing, and it indicates the regulator is not standing up to these guys. It goes on to state "It seems that when challenged by misbehaving institutions, the Financial Regulator simply backed down".

That is the root cause of the problem, as Irish banks have been subject to what the regulator has termed a principles-based system, but this has allowed them to land the nation in the appalling mess we are in at the moment. The Financial Regulator bears responsibility for it and should resign as a result.

It is welcome that we have finally arranged a meeting with the Financial Regulator. Senator Ross spoke about confidence. Trust is seriously lacking among the public because of what has happened over the past several months. I do not see evidence of anyone putting up his or her hands or admitting that something has to be done. The Government can address the lack of confidence but I want to know what is planned to address this absence of trust. People have had to swallow a bitter pill. They have always come under pressure because of loans, mortgages and personal debts, yet the first to be bailed out are the banks. I realise this is necessary in light of market conditions but it seems unfair to the average taxpayer. There has been significant criticism of the banking system and the Financial Regulator for letting this happen. I acknowledge that external influences played a part but major problems also arose on our own shores. People will need to be given proper answers in that regard.

Ms O'Dea stated that investigations are ongoing into the arrears policies of banks. What influence has the Financial Regulator in that regard? We encounter on a daily basis people who are coming under pressure because of arrears or payment rescheduling. I acknowledge that mainstream banks are not the primary culprits in this regard but the other banks, which are a hobby horse of the Chairman, have been active in seizing assets. Loans should not be rescheduled at a rip-off cost. Can the regulator instruct banks to play fairly rather than come down too heavily on people? Those who are in impossible situations should not be further abused.

The money has already dried up for small and medium-sized enterprises. What can the regulator do in that regard? Future job creation is dependent on these businesses. The multinationals will get their money from the banks but we have a duty to help the small operators.

Mr. Neary stated Irish banks "have had limited contact with so-called toxic products". Is that a guarantee or a personal opinion? We assume that the banks are suffering the consequences of their property lending practices. He also stated that a number of measures were taken in 2006 and 2007 in response to emerging issues in the property market. Did these make a difference? They were certainly introduced too late and the markets do not seem to believe that the issues were addressed. Similarly, is it Mr. Neary's personal opinion that Ireland's capital regime is one of the most stringent in Europe? Given that few in the markets appear to agree, I ask that we be given proof of this. He stated:

There will be losses on property-related loans and increased provisions and write-offs will be necessary. The potential difficulties in this regard are linked to how the economy unfolds.

I presume prudence is important in this regard, so what can we expect? Are the banks discussing with the Financial Regulator their plans in respect of the rearrangement of their provisions?

During the debate on the Credit Institutions (Financial Support) Bill 2008 figures of 1% and 2% were quoted in respect of bad debts. That is a joke; no one believes this. What are the real figures? What is the Financial Regulator's prudent assessment? We do not want to hear about how the economy is unfolding; we already know. What we want to hear is a prediction in terms of where we are going. While we all supported the measures introduced by the Government a number of weeks ago, there was a lack of information and reality surrounding the debate, which is unfair to the Opposition which wants to do a good job in tackling this issue. Let us have some real figures.

Mr. Neary referred to the figure of €24 billion supported by additional collateral and alternative sources of cash flow. Perhaps he will explain to us how exactly the €24 billion is made up. I hope it is gold, which is safe, because there is not much else out there that is. What is the basis for Mr. Neary's confidence in terms of the safety of this money and the State in only facing an exposure of €15 billion in respect of property? I do not believe the money is as safe as Mr. Neary says it is. Perhaps he will elaborate on this point.

A number of questions have been asked. Perhaps it would be best to provide the Financial Regulator with an opportunity to respond at this stage and I will come back in later.

I propose to take questions from five members and then invite Mr. Neary to respond.

I apologise for being late but I had to attend another meeting. I welcome the delegation. I have two questions for Mr. Neary and one for Ms O'Dea.

When debating the introduction of the guarantee scheme, we were informed by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance that the assets of the six Irish banks exceeded their liabilities by €80 billion. Subsequent to this I tabled a parliamentary question to the Minister for Finance asking on what that assertion had been based. The response I received was that the assertion had been based on the balance sheets at the end of 2007. Needless to say, much has changed since then. I was also informed that the Financial Regulator and relevant authorities were seeking information on the situation up to 29 September this year. Is that answer from the Department of Finance accurate? Is the Financial Regulator going in and, as Deputy Richard Bruton might say, ripping up the floor boards in order to learn the truth? Also, does the Financial Regulator have any indication of what is the real figure, if it is not €80 billion, which clearly it is not?

It is hard to know the true position on moneys on loan from the European Central Bank, given that one tends to receive different answers. I have been told sums of between €4 billion and €50 billion are on loan from the European Central Bank to Irish banks. Does Mr. Neary know what is the real figure? More importantly, is it the case that the European Central Bank would have first call on that money should a bank collapse? In other words, the European Central Bank would get to call in that money before Irish taxpayers were refunded in respect of the guarantee.

My final question is to Ms O'Dea and relates to Start Mortgages which has become an issue of debate in recent times. I note that in terms of repossession requests it is top of the league table. I assume it is regulated by the the Financial Regulator. If so, is the regulator satisfied that the stress and affordability tests will prevent organisations such as this offering mortgages people clearly cannot afford?

Mr. Patrick Neary

Deputy O'Donnell asked if the market believed the figures.

Does the Financial Regulator believe them?

Mr. Patrick Neary

I will respond later to that question. I have stated the capital base is €42 billion. This is the figure after the provision of €2.1 billion is set against the impaired loans of €3.6 billion created in the last set of accounts. I have identified construction and property development in Ireland at €39.1 billion and the €24 billion is supported by additional collateral and alternative sources of cashflow. The €15 billion is literally lending that is secured directly on the underlying property. What we said in our discussion earlier was that the take-out of that €15 billion depends on the degree to which that property is realisable at the value on the books. It is a vulnerable figure and I think there will be write-downs.

With due respect, this is the key.

The Deputy has asked a question, please allow Mr. Neary to answer it.

The regulator has not answered my question.

We can come back to it.

Mr. Patrick Neary

I must——

It is a short question and I want to deal with it. Does the regulator believe those assets are worth €24 billion? That is the key? We all know the underlying assets at €15 billion are not worth what they were lent for.

Mr. Patrick Neary

I must go by the facts at my disposal. The €24 billion is supported by collateral alternative cashflows. These loans are being serviced. If the loans are repaid in full in accordance with the agreed repayment arrangements, there will never be any need to resort to——

How does the regulator define "being serviced". Does he define it as being rolled up?

Mr. Patrick Neary

I define loans being serviced as loans operating in accordance with the contractual terms of the loan agreement.

Has the regulator gone in and looked at them? These could be loans that are not being repaid, they are just rolled up. Does the regulator regard that as a repayment?

Mr. Patrick Neary

There can be situations where loans are given on that basis where there is a roll-up of interest. That is absolutely right.

Therefore, what about bad debts? This is the key question.

Mr. Patrick Neary

Exactly. This is the point.

The regulator is not answering the question. The question is very simple. Does he believe that the banks have a black hole in terms of bad debts? Is there a requirement for the State to immediately inject capital?

Mr. Patrick Neary

No. I have identified €24 billion in relation to the speculative lending construction and property development sector. Most market commentators believe that is the area which is the riskiest part of the business. These loans are extended on contractual terms. They are being serviced and supported by additional collateral. The question of how much of that €24 billion can be written down depends on the ability of people to service the loan and then on the collectability and value of the collateral or the other security that is available. One could write off——

This is affecting the liquidity of the banks.

Mr. Patrick Neary

Wait a minute. One could write off that €24 billion in its entirely against the capital of €42 billion. The Deputy asked if the banks are solvent. One could write off the €39 billion and the banks would still——

What would the capital ratio requirements be after doing that?

Mr. Patrick Neary

Of course they would be in breach of the capital requirements. There is no question about that.

Mr. Patrick Neary

The Deputy asked me if the banks were solvent. One must remember that the job of the Financial Regulator is to ensure solvency to protect depositors. There is still net worth in the banking system if one writes off that entire €31 billion.

With due respect, if the regulator does that the banks will get no access whatsoever to liquidity——

Mr. Patrick Neary

Exactly.

——and they will not be able to function.

Mr. Patrick Neary

We are into a theoretical discussion.

We are not. We are into a practical discussion.

Mr. Patrick Neary

We are into a theoretical discussion on the value of loans on the balance sheet of the banks. It is a completely theoretical discussion.

Questions have been put to the Financial Regulator. We will come back to them.

This is the key question that people are asking.

I know that, Deputy.

It is the key question. I want to work with the regulator. We, as elected representatives, have to get the answers.

I appreciate that.

We want a sound banking system. We are asking if there is now a requirement for the Government to make a capital injection, as is being done in the UK, into the banking sector to keep it viable, so as not to expose further taxpayers' money and to allow business and the economy to function? This is the question that is being asked.

The regulator has obviously discussed this matter with the Government. When was the earliest point that the regulator indicated to the Government that there were major problems in the banking sector? That is a fair and legitimate question. It is not personal. This is a key issue. We all want a vibrant banking sector. We all know deposits are being withdrawn. The Government now needs to move to inject capital into the banks by way of preference shares to ensure the banking system and, more particularly, the economy can function. The credit ratings of mortgage holders are affected because the banks are under pressure. We want the rising tide to lift all boats. My question is whether the regulator believes at this moment, given that this is an evolving situation, that the Government should inject capital into the banking sector to enable it to function in order that the economy and people in general can access credit and mortgage holders will not be under pressure.

Mr. Patrick Neary

There are a number of questions. We have dealt with the question of whether the banks are solvent.

Is it correct that all six are solvent?

Mr. Patrick Neary

I am talking in terms of the system in place here. I cannot comment on the circumstances of individual banks

Does the regulator mean that, collectively, the banks are solvent but there may be individual banks which are insolvent?

Mr. Patrick Neary

No, I would not say that.

What is the regulator saying?

Mr. Patrick Neary

I do not want to be drawn into talking about individual banks.

That is why we are here.

That is what we are here to do. If the taxpayer is to underwrite a guarantee for the banking sector, it is fair that we should ask pertinent questions and have an open dialogue on the issue.

Mr. Patrick Neary

All of the banks are solvent. If they were not, they would be currently being wound up.

Is that a guarantee?

Are they all solvent?

Mr. Patrick Neary

They are all solvent.

Does the regulator believe they are solvent?

Let us be fair. This is hypothetical.

Is that based on last year's balance sheets?

It is a legitimate question.

It is hypothetical.

Is the banks' solvency based on the balance sheets of 2007?

These are serious questions.

The Deputy is not allowing the regulator to answer the questions. Good manners would allow that. As the Chairman said, if the Deputy has supplementary questions, he can ask them.

It is budget day. We all have other things to do.

Mr. Patrick Neary

A number of questions have been asked. I would like to put the question of a capital injection by the Government in the context of what happened in the United Kingdom. The purpose of the Government's initiative in giving the guarantee was to get liquidity back into the system. That has been successfully achieved. The United Kingdom took a different composite approach of guaranteeing deposits up to £50,000, guaranteeing the interbank market and recapitalising the banks. The reason it did that was for liquidity relating to impaired loans and insolvencies. The reality is — a regulator would certainly say it — we love capital, the more of it the better. Capital in the normal sense is available to absorb losses in the loan portfolio, to make sure the banks remain solvent and to protect depositors' funds. In the event that write-downs of some of the loans I have set out are necessary — undoubtedly there will be losses — the question of the need for capital will arise. The European declaration agreed over the weekend stated capital should be sourced, first and foremost, from private sources if such sources were available and, second, all governments had committed to make regulatory capital available in the event that it was needed and not available from private sources. Based on the figures I have, there is a capital base of €42 billion and that across the system there is an average regulatory ratio approaching 11%, which meets all of the rules. I share Deputy O'Donnell's concern about the flow of liquidity in the economy. The Government initiative is important to ensure cash continues to come into the economy and remains available for businesses.

It is not available.

Mr. Patrick Neary

I agree that it is not.

Businesses cannot pay wages. I know of a person in business who last weekend was unable to pay staff because the banks had withdrawn overdraft facilities. We want something which will work but I am worried that the new scheme lacks the capital injection needed. That is why I am being so direct with Mr. Neary.

Mr. Patrick Neary

I accept that. The other question was on financial stability during 2007, when the view was expressed that banks were adequately capitalised and had adequate liquidity, both of which were true. Banks were in full compliance with their capital ratios and met all their liquidity requirements.

Mr. Con Horan

That was undoubtedly the case. At the time, based our analysis of the situation and after liaison with colleagues in the Central Bank who carried out stress testing of portfolios, the results were as we have stated. We are now 15 or 16 months into a global problem and the situation has become significantly worse in recent weeks, particularly since the collapse of Lehman Brothers. Liquidity remains difficult and that creates a new dynamic. We will intensify our investigation and analyse the revised situation. We are in difficult circumstances and our intensification of the supervision system will be appropriate to them.

Mr. Patrick Neary

Senator Ross asked a few questions.

I asked Mr. Neary to tell me when he had first informed the Taoiseach, the Government and the Minister for Finance of the seriousness of the situation. When did he advise the domestic standing group and the Government that the best way to proceed was with a guarantee?

Mr. Patrick Neary

The Department of Finance was fully briefed, via the domestic standing group, on the emerging liquidity problem. As Mr. Horan said, the collapse of Lehman Brothers changed everything and we became extremely concerned that liquidity in the market was very short-term in nature and that outflows from the system were being observed. On the Monday when the decision to put in place a guarantee was taken share prices had taken a battering and we became extremely concerned that, if the outflows continued and the markets continued to decline on the Tuesday, we would have a major crisis. At that stage — on the Monday — the Governor and director of the Central Bank went to see the Taoiseach.

There was a report that drafts of the agreement were circulated the weekend before that Monday. Is that true?

Mr. Patrick Neary

I certainly did not see any such drafts.

Senator Ross said people may have lost confidence in me and that, as a result, I should have resigned. I dealt with that issue earlier but reject the suggestion I acted in the interests of the banks. I am a public servant and always act in the public interest. I enjoy the confidence of the authority.

Does Mr. Neary enjoy the confidence of the banks?

Mr. Patrick Neary

I sincerely hope I enjoy everybody's confidence but the Senator has said that is not the case.

It is not the case in respect of the public.

Mr. Patrick Neary

That is an opinion but I reject the accusation that I act other than in the public interest in the way I do my job.

Senator Ross mentioned an article by Dr. Michael Casey who is a former colleague of mine and worked in the Central Bank until two or three years ago. The Senator mentioned a couple of things Dr. Casey had said and measures which he considered should be available to the regulator such as loan-to-income and loan to value ratios. They are worthy ratios. However, when incomes are rising rapidly, as they were in recent years, the loan to income ratio quickly becomes redundant, as does the loan to value ratio. In recent years we saw that those measures became redundant very quickly.

Senator Ross referred to the close relationship between the regulator and the banks. Across the entire system, as part of our strategy, we work very closely with the institutions we supervise. It is an essential part of the principles-led system and exactly what is called for. There is a difference between working closely with the banks or other financial institutions and not being objective. I believe we have retained a sense of objectivity in the way we deal with the various sectors.

Has the regulator fined any banks?

Mr. Patrick Neary

Let me put it another way. With regard to AIB overcharging, it is important that we got significant amounts of customers' money back.

Has the regulator fined any bank?

Mr. Patrick Neary

Fining is one option available to us. Putting things to right is also important. That has been our focus.

Has the regulator fined any banks?

Mr. Patrick Neary

No. We have not.

I cannot dispute the extracts from the Comptroller and Auditor General's report quoted by Senator Ross. We will have to address these findings. We have been working with the Comptroller and Auditor General to address his findings and made arrangements to deal with them.

I have addressed the question of fines. We have imposed none, apart from on Irish Nationwide Building Society. We have applied a number of sanctions, as Senator Ross rightly said.

Blocking directors involves many legal issues. Before blocking anyone from doing anything, one needs evidence which can be substantiated and argued through. It must first be clear to everybody that some criminal activity or extremely egregious behaviour has taken place. There are directors who have not operated in accordance with company law but we must take the factors I have outlined into the equation before we make such judgments.

Lending to property developers in the past ten years must be put in the context of what was happening in the economy. There was extreme demand for lending. It began in 2000 when a number of Bacon reports stated far more houses should be built. At the time a deficit in the housing stock of 140,000 units was identified. That is probably where the construction boom started. There was huge demand for loan facilities from the property sector and considerable lending. I am not sure if I would describe it as willy-nilly but there is no doubt there was a lot of it.

My colleague, Ms O'Dea, may wish to say something about the consumer panel. Senator Ross referred to evidence of our resolve to stand up to the banks.

Ms Mary O’Dea

We discussed that with the consumer panel at the time and we reject the suggestion completely. When we believe we should face down the industry on an issue we do so. The consumer panel report is a lengthy document that, in many parts, is complimentary about our work. The report indicates that the consumer panel believes our work can make a big difference to consumers but on the aforementioned point we disagreed.

Ms O'Dea is saying that the Financial Regulator disagreed on the point of whether it stands up to banks. Ms O'Dea believes that it does.

Ms Mary O’Dea

Yes.

Mr. Con Horan

Some of the liquidity measures we introduced in July 2007, as mentioned by Mr. Neary, were not favoured by the banks. They were seen as tough measures at the time but we feel they have proved to be very beneficial. The additional capital measures we introduced were tougher than other European regimes and were not welcomed by the banks. We felt at the time that they were in the general interest and that is why we introduced them. There is much evidence of measures we took that were not favoured by the banks.

Mr. Patrick Neary

We have dealt with Senator Ross's questions. Deputy English remarked on trust and confidence and he is correct that these are central factors in financial services banking. He referred to the act of bailing out banks while people are under pressure from debt. I understand why people might feel this was the case but I feel the economy was the issue. There was a need to protect savers and the financial system in the context of protecting the economy. This must be done through the banking system and, in that context, it is necessary to bail out banks. However, I understand why people might say "These banks were bailed out while I am under pressure to meet my obligations".

Ms O'Dea may wish to comment on arrears.

Ms Mary O’Dea

I will refer to what we can do. The code clearly sets out that the person must have an appropriate arrears procedure and this is what we are examining at the moment. It also clearly sets out that when a person misses a mortgage payment he or she must be informed of the consequences and associated charges. The person must be in full knowledge of such details. The code sets out that a person must act in the best interests of the customer and uses the word "fairly". We are carrying out our inspection at the moment to ascertain whether the institution acted fairly in this regard. We wish to see that the institution works with the customer to ensure payments can be rescheduled somehow to help the customer work his or her way out of the difficulties, rather than move immediately to take more serious action.

Mr. Patrick Neary

With regard to toxic products, I share the concerns expressed. All banks have entered into derivative contracts and hedged their exposure. However, there was certainly no instrument that could be regarded as toxic in the sense of the international difficulties that began in the US. Subprime backed securities would not be in the portfolios of banks. These securities have a habit of cropping up in other sectors and I would not wish to suggest that we will not see them in areas such as reinsurance in future. We do not regard them as a material matter in the context of banks' balance sheets. It is ironic that the focus on property lending has meant people did not focus and take risks on these products.

Regarding the harsh regime, we have trawled other regulators and are not aware that any of them applied a higher capital weighting, as the one mentioned by Mr. Horan, to a speculative property development or the higher loan to value loans. We were first to introduce a different liquidity regime. I can only be as sure as our research will confirm that no other regime is more harsh.

I dealt with the question of the credibility of the figures in my response to Deputy O'Donnell. There is no doubt that the market is concerned in this regard.

My question is what makes up the figure of €24 billion. Could it include, for example, share portfolios? Much of the collateral and securities was given some years ago. Will the Financial Regulator be investigating this? We know what has happened to share portfolios.

Mr. Patrick Neary

I take the Deputy's point. I do not have a detailed analysis setting out the securities provided on a loan by loan basis. The Deputy is correct that the figure of €24 billion might include portfolios of securities or shares.

Is this something the Financial Regulator will examine?

Mr. Patrick Neary

Yes.

Will Mr. Neary report back to the committee on the matter?

Mr. Patrick Neary

Yes.

Mr. Con Horan

To offer an insight on this issue, while we cannot break down the numbers involved, some of it includes development property, but it may also be cross-collateralised against other assets the borrower may have. For example, it might include an office block that is producing a rental income or a shopping centre that will generate certain income to cover aspects of the portfolio which may not be generating income. We are examining this issue.

Could the figure include share portfolios?

Mr. Con Horan

That is unlikely. However, to the extent that developers may provide a basket of assets as collateral, there could be some share portfolios, but they are likely to be cross-collateralised against other property assets the borrower may have.

That is not good.

Mr. Con Horan

It depends. A shopping centre which is producing income and has a long-term anchor tenant or an office block which has good tenants may generate income to support the portfolio to some extent.

Mr. Patrick Neary

Deputy Varadkar asked about the assets and liabilities of the six institutions. I ask Mr. Horan to elaborate.

Mr. Con Horan

As we understand it, the figure of €80 billion represents the accounts at the end of September.

No, it applies to the situation at the end of December 2007.

Mr. Con Horan

I apologise, that is correct.

However, we were not told that in the Dáil.

Mr. Con Horan

These figures were constructed by advisers to the Minister at the time and we were not directly involved. Since then we have provided certain statistical information for those advisers based on the financial position of the banks on 29 September 2008. I understand the advisers are running this through the same methodology and that the numbers are coming out at approximately the same amount. Clearly, we are operating on the basis of a different figure from a regulatory perspective, which is our focus. We spoke about a figure of €42 billion. There may be different methodologies but it is not something in which we are directly involved.

Mr. Patrick Neary

Deputy Varadkar asked about the level of European Central Bank borrowing. My colleagues in the Central Bank told me this morning that the total drawdown from the European Central Bank was €69.3 billion.

Does this figure indicate how much the European Central Bank has lent to Irish banks?

Mr. Patrick Neary

Yes, it is the money drawn down into the Irish system.

Does that take precedence over the taxpayers' guarantee?

Mr. Patrick Neary

I am not sure about the ranking of borrowings from the European Central Bank. The guarantee has not been published and we must wait and see to what extent it——

In the view of the European Central Bank, any loans it gives to banks take precedence over anything else. In other words, those loans represent the most senior debt.

Mr. Patrick Neary

The European Central Bank would certainly have taken collateral against that exposure.

Ms Mary Burke

Until we see the details of the scheme, I cannot state specifically whether there are references to European Central Bank borrowing. The European Central Bank lends against collateral, that is, there must be European Central Bank-eligible collateral. The Central Bank would have the details. It is collateralised, secured lending.

What type of collateral do Irish banks have to cover borrowings of €69 billion?

Ms Mary Burke

While I cannot list all the criteria, there is, for example, the mortgage-backed promissory note scheme, whereby certain residential mortgages can be used to collateralise the lending, depending on their loan to value ratio and performance, and provided they meet the ECB's criteria.

Effectively, were we not in the European Union, we would be in Iceland.

Ms Mary Burke

The ECB is a facility that, through normal market operations, provides liquidity. I do not necessarily have an issue with banks using the ECB for liquidity. Certainly, in the current environment, one will see increasing use of central banks for liquidity. Moreover, those banks that have liquidity can be seen to be putting it back with central banks, rather than putting it out in the market. We are in very unusual times and to a degree, central banks are being used in a way that they were not used previously.

One could state that were Iceland in the ECB, it would not be in its present position.

Ms Mary Burke

That would be another way of looking at it.

While I do not wish to be party political, when Deputies Cowen and Lenihan give the impression they stood up to the European Commission, one should realise that were it not for Europe, Ireland would be under water. It has been saved by the European Central Bank.

We are equal partners with all the member states.

If €69.3 billion has been loaned, a question arises in respect of the insurance covering that debt. In addition, the issue of speculation on credit default swaps has emerged of late. To what extent, ultimately, are the Irish taxpayer, Government and banks exposed in this regard? Does the regulator take a view on the issue of credit default swaps?

Moreover, the point that was made about securitisation and its relevance to the position in which we find ourselves at present should be repeated because I did not quite follow it.

I have a question on the Financial Regulator's relationship with the NTMA. I understand the Minister has stated the figures of €520 billion and €440 billion for liabilities and assets, respectively, were received from the NTMA, rather than from his departmental advisors. What is the relationship and how does the Financial Regulator perceive the pension fund? Could it be used in future for the capitalisation of Irish banks?

I wish to make one or two points that are not directly related to the previous questions. Obviously this has been a long meeting and much interesting information has been provided to members by the regulator. I again welcome Mr. Neary and his staff before this joint committee.

At the outset, I wish to note my deep concern, as a citizen of both Ireland and the world, regarding Mr. Neary's statement that no financial regulatory authority in Ireland, Europe or the world was able to foresee the cataclysmic events that took place in the banking system. I would have thought that was the reason regulators were appointed and was the job they are meant to do on behalf of citizens. It is and will be of deep concern in general that the regulatory authorities of the world have failed abysmally to protect us from what has happened. Unfortunately, as already noted, if a price must be paid, it will be ordinary citizens who will be asked to pay it, which is highly disturbing.

As for the Financial Regulator's opening presentation, Mr. Neary mentioned one specific action in which the regulator intends to engage, namely, to "immediately recruit an additional 20 senior supervisory staff with banking experience to be placed on-site in key banks to monitor developments". The people have been waiting for such a measure. Does the Financial Regulator intend to go into the banks to see the whites of their eyes? Does it intend to closely monitor what happens there? This is an indication that the previous policy has failed, in that the trust the Financial Regulator may have had in the banks obviously has broken down. At what level will the aforementioned supervisory staff operate within the banks? Will they be on their boards or will they sit outside the chief executive's office looking at his or her correspondence? In what way will they do the job we need them to? I would appreciate an answer.

With regard to how we handle this matter as public representatives, we had a meeting of the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service last week when we discussed much the same issue. We are in completely new territory as a country as regards how the banking system with which we are now intricately linked and the banking guarantee scheme will be monitored by us. Members of this committee and the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service should look at forming one committee made up of members of the two committees to have ongoing and intensive engagement with the Financial Regulator, the Central Bank, the banks and so on to ensure the guarantee scheme is implemented in a way that will benefit the people. Perhaps in private session or another session we could look at having one super-committee — rather than duplication — to monitor the scheme in order that the people will have some confidence following what has been, unfortunately, a debacle. I hope we will get better results on behalf of the people we are all trying to serve.

Mr. Patrick Neary

I omitted to answer one of Deputy Varadkar's questions regarding Start Mortgages to which I will return. Deputy Sherlock asked a similar question regarding the ECB and collateral. Cash is given to the banks; it is not as if stuff just disappears from the balance sheet and is not replaced by something else. There is what is termed a haircut on the value of the security; therefore, if €100 is given by way of security, €95 in cash will be given for it.

The normal figure the ECB would have loaned to Irish banks would have been in the region of €10 billion; therefore, we have gone from €10 billion to €70 billion in a very short period.

Mr. Patrick Neary

That is really a matter for the Central Bank. I just have the figure of €69.3 billion; that is all the information it was in a position to give me.

I apologise for interrupting. Would that be to every bank operating in Ireland?

Mr. Patrick Neary

It is against all the banks.

It would include IFSC operations.

Mr. Patrick Neary

Yes, definitely.

Ms Mary O’Dea

With regard to non-deposit taking lenders, when established the legislation did not provide for the regulation of such lenders. The philosophy was that we were protecting depositors' funds, as opposed to those of borrowers. That was an anomaly in the legislation and we approached the Department of Finance with a view to having the issue resolved. All non-deposit taking lenders fall within our remit, meaning anybody who lends to the public falls within it. The authorisation process began once the legislation was put in place. Some have been authorised, while others are in the process of being authorised. However, while all of that was going on, we decided to apply the consumer protection code with immediate effect. Therefore, the arrears procedure includes all non-deposit taking lenders also. People should not be advanced mortgages they cannot afford, as this would be in breach of the suitability requirements as set out in the code. People's circumstances can change. The obvious example is where somebody loses a job he or she was not expected to lose. When somebody is advanced money and it is quite clear he or she will not be able to repay the amount, it is in breach of the code. Such matters can be dealt with by us or the Financial Services Ombudsman, depending on circumstances.

How would self-certification of income fit into this?

Ms Mary O’Dea

We have advised all mortgage lenders that if they are looking at self-certification of income, they must be sure they will have it on a reasonable basis and a basis people can understand it. If a loan is being given to somebody, that person might indicate he or she has money saved with another institution such as a credit union. Some of this information can be checked but all of it cannot; therefore, the system relies on those applying for a loan to be honest in the information they give. This is in consumers' best interests because, while we cannot force them to supply specific information, we can regulate the financial institutions to ensure they serve their customers' interests.

I have a 100% mortgage and, even though my income has just decreased by 5%, I am fortunate enough to be able to pay it. When I received my mortgage, the AIB required copies of my payslips and bank statements for three years. Should they not be required by all mortgage lenders? That appears to be a more appropriate approach than that of self-certification.

Ms Mary O’Dea

I would be surprised if most mortgage lenders did not follow that practice. It depends, however, on the nature of one's job and the relative ease with which the necessary information can be provided. We are trying to strike a balance between allowing people to borrow money which they can legitimately repay and not making it so difficult that those whose income fluctuates can never get a mortgage. The vast majority of lenders would demand the information described by the Deputy. I am glad he had a positive experience.

It was not that positive.

Mr. Patrick Neary

I will deal with Deputy Behan's observation. I wish I had a crystal ball but nobody predicted the meltdown in the financial markets. What happened was out of all proportion to the reasonable estimates which had been made for global and domestic economic behaviour as we entered these difficult times. The crisis descended on the global markets and we did not see it coming.

In regard to new staff, the situation has changed in that we have a Government guarantee which must be protected. It is no longer simply a matter of serving shareholder interests because the public and taxpayers are now involved. We have to increase our oversight to provide the level of protection the taxpayer deserves. That is why I want to employ experienced people who understand risk, credit standards and liquidity management.

How are they going to do this? Will they be sitting outside the chief executives' doors or on boards?

Mr. Patrick Neary

The Deputy makes a fair point. We will be asking them to follow the risk. They will be spending a lot of time with senior credit managers, lenders in particular, as well as treasury managers who manage liquidity risks. That will be their chief focus initially. We will also ask them to play a role on the issue of compliance.

Various members have raised issues. The public and, in particular, the small and medium-sized enterprises which are regulated to the hilt will say regulation of the financial sector was insufficient. Major improvements are needed to ensure what has happened in the past six years will never be repeated. The markets were allowed to operate without regulation.

Mr. Patrick Neary

I can understand why people involved in small businesses feel that way. They considered other sectors were gaining an advantage over them.

We have given a reasonable account of the measures we took in the interests of depositors and the system. These measures, with the various measures taken by the consumer director, represented a fair regulatory package. I accept the observations of people directly affected by what has been happening and that we must take account of them. There is no doubt that there is a need for dialogue on the future model of regulation.

I thank the Financial Regulator and his colleagues for attending.

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