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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC REGULATORY AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 10 Nov 2009

Regulation of Banking Sector: Discussion with Irish Banking Federation.

On behalf of the joint committee I welcome the delegation from the Irish Banking Federation Mr. Pat Farrell, chief executive, Ms Eimer O'Rourke, head of retail banking, and Mr. Felix O'Regan, head of PR and public affairs. I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of a long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that Members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or any official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I ask Mr. Farrell to proceed with his presentation.

Mr. Pat Farrell

The Irish Banking Federation is a trade body and represents all of the banks, both retail and international of which there are more than 70. We do not regulate the banking sector as that is vested in the appropriate regulatory authorities. Our purpose is to foster the development of a dynamic and stable banking and financial services industry and in so doing to contribute to the economic and social well-being of the country. As part of that mandate, we promote and encourage high standards of compliance across the industry and we undertake a range of complementary initiatives on a voluntary basis, which seeks to enhance and strengthen the formal regime. I will elaborate on some of those initiatives later.

We fully recognise the need for a robust regulatory regime. If we do not have a robust regime it will not command the respect and confidence that we so badly need locally and internationally. We have a large financial services industry by global standards and that can only continue to develop and grow in an environment of world class regulation.

The Irish Banking Federation is not a regulator per se or responsible for regulating the sector, but I appreciate the opportunity on behalf of the IBF, to address the committee on the subject of compliance with financial regulation in the Irish banking sector.

In the coming period, we have to make major calls on the future direction of the industry and its regulatory regime. It is clear that we must do things differently but it is equally clear that we need to get it right and what we commit to now should be informed by reason and logic and above all it should be evidence based. I want to be as candid and frank as possible in speaking on the regulatory system and how it might evolve because far too often we tend to pull our punches as part of the compromise for living on a small island. The topic under discussion is too important for that and it behoves me to be equally candid in my remarks about the banking sector.

I can fully understand the depth of public anger at the banking system for having let them down and in the process lost their trust. We fully acknowledge that some significant elements of the banking industry failed to measure and manage risk effectively. We built complexity and opacity into the investment banking sector globally, which defied understanding even for some industry leaders.

The problems we have experienced in Ireland were not so much associated with the latter but nonetheless we brewed our own home grown crises with a property asset price bubble of unprecedented proportions. For these omissions and failures, I unreservedly apologise and regret that we let down our customers, in many respects shareholders, employees and the wider community. I know it will take a long time to regain trust and confidence. The word credit is derived from credere, the Latin verb “to believe” and also “to trust”. If one thinks about that, it forcibly reminds us that market capitalism requires regulation but equally relies on each and every one to have the strength of character and moral compass to do the right thing. All of these events were a disappointment for me personally. Over the years, my colleagues and I have worked professionally with dedication to effectively represent the sector and above all to build relationships with all of our key stakeholders. We have tried to do that based on mutual respect and understanding. We have done so to try to build the reputation of the sector as a valued economic and social actor. I would like to think that over those years we made some progress but right now it feels as though all that has been set to nought and we must start the work afresh. We must start it again even if it is to be brick by brick because the rebuilding of trust, reputation and confidence in our sector is foundational to rebuilding our economy, regaining our self confidence and restoring our international reputation. We know there are very hard lessons to be learned and readily acknowledge there is a need for change in the way we do business. We are engaging intensely on an ongoing basis with all our stakeholders to try to begin the task of rebuilding our reputation and trust. We know it will be a long and hard road to travel.

The global regulatory authorities have signalled the need for objectives such as higher capital and liquidity requirements, now and into the future. Measures are planned to reduce procyclicality and these are on the table as we speak. We also recognise there is a need for closer alignment of risk and rewards in support of a more sustainable banking system. That is a given. It seems inevitable that regulation will become more intensive and demanding but we also must remember there will be trade-offs. The pace of economic growth will be slower but, one hopes, less prone to shocks. If some of the figures speculated upon at the moment concerning the levels of capital liquidity that will be required to be held were to eventuate, they would come at a cost to the real economy. That is a decision we will make as a society, as we make our choices, but it is important to bear that in mind.

We should remind ourselves of the sector's role in the economy, which is lost sight of at times. We have had our failings and shortcomings but in going forward we need to renew our focus on the sector's potential and positives and ensure that pragmatic, sensible and practical measures underpin the regulatory response. We must ensure that banks can continue to make managed risks. One cannot manage all risks out of the system and if we try to do that we will be left with a banking system that would not be fit for purpose in serving the day-to-day needs of the economy or wider society.

Ultimately, it was not all about property. We facilitated the development of a dynamic Irish economy while other areas of infrastructure lagged behind. In just over 20 years we built an international financial services centre from a brownfield site in the deprived and decaying inner city docklands area which now employs over 30,000 people. We have provided and continue to provide a range of day-to-day banking services across more than 1,000 branches, 3,500 ATMs and we efficiently process millions of transactions on a daily basis. We are and will continue to be a serious contributor to wealth generation and employment. In its own right the sector is a key driver of economic growth. The International Financial Services Centre accounts for 35% of service exports. The sector provides €18.2 billion, or about 10%, of the gross value added in GDP terms to the Irish economy. More than 90,000 people are employed in the sector, the lion's share being in banking, namely, more than 45,000 people. We account for 7% of all private sector employees, spend €6.2 billion on employee remuneration per year and account for 12% of PAYE and a sizable chunk of corporation tax receipts. In the next slide, for page 6, members will see our sector's contribution in terms of corporation tax and PAYE placed against other sectors. While I readily acknowledge the contribution in corporation tax will be well down on previous figures because of the present situation in the sector, over time that is something which will return to be a major contributor to the Exchequer.

One area I wish to touch on, because I am sure it will be anticipated by members, is what we are doing at present. I shall elaborate on some of the voluntary initiatives we have undertaken to complement the regulatory regime in place, particularly in so far as it relates to borrowers. We have been doing a number of things. We have a code of conduct on mortgage arrears which has now been put on a statutory basis. This was introduced by the sector on a voluntary basis in 2000, well before the challenges we now face. It is now a statutory code. This morning we also announced a lender's pledge on repossessions which will give further reassurance to home owners. We have the protocol with the Money Advice and Budgetary Service, MABS, and the statutory consumer protection code. I will speak about the debt enforcement system on which we have long-standing views.

Regarding the code of conduct on mortgage arrears, we should remind ourselves it provides very strong safeguards for borrowers. It means that in the first place lenders must adopt flexible procedures when they are handling arrears cases. They must wait, at a minimum, six months before they start legal action. This is 12 months in the case of the recapitalised banks. The code covers all the mortgage lenders including the sub-prime lenders. We represent only the mainstream lenders but the code covers all lenders and builds on the code we developed in 2000.

To put the debate on repossessions in context, during 2008 we had 96 repossessions. That is 0.01% of all mortgages. In terms of forbearance our culture is entirely different from that in the United Kingdom, where there are 35 repossessions for every one in this country. Regarding mortgage arrears, while there are quite a number of people in that situation, we believe the safeguards and assurances that have been put in place mean we can manage that situation, give the required level of forbearance and work towards solutions with people so they stay in the security of their own home.

In the announcement we made this morning, we further strengthened our commitment. We will monitor this commitment and have the input of MABS in helping us to monitor it. Where a person is in genuine repayment difficulty in respect of his or her principal private residence, provided there is early open communication with the lender — this is critically important from both sides — a mutually acceptable repayment arrangement can be arrived at. A range of solutions is available which should be able to address the vast majority of issues that people in current difficulties with repayments may have. The institution pledges it will not go down the legal route. That arrangement will then be reviewed on an individual basis every six months and will be overseen by a committee of the Irish Banking Federation with input from the Money Advice and Budgetary Service.

Concerning the protocol on debt management, we are working with MABS and money advisors. With lenders who are members we are giving priority to solutions over legal proceedings. That is absolutely the default position. We are developing sustainable repayment plans for people who may find they have a loss of income or are between employments. All the solutions are designed to meet each of those different needs because every case is special in its own right and has its own set of circumstances. We have a formal agreement with MABS which was developed in discussions over a period and draws on the long-standing good relationship we have with MABS. All institutions that are members of the IBF have signed up to this protocol. It is open to other lenders in the sub-prime area or elsewhere to adopt if they so wish and some have done so.

The consumer protection code is a statutory code and, in a sense, is more forward looking. It requires lenders to act to protect consumer interests and strengthens safeguards already there. Effectively, it means that when one extends credit to a customer, one has to assess his or her suitability and ability to make repayments. There should be no pre-approved or unsolicited credit. We worked closely with the Financial Regulator when it was developing the code. It is fully effective since July 2007 and is monitored and reviewed on a regular basis by the regulator, which has probably reported on this to the committee. The regulator does a number of themed inspections across all financial institutions to measure compliance with the code. That code is due for review some time early in the new year.

Regarding debt enforcement, we support the overhaul of the current system. Members will be aware there was a recent publication by the Law Reform Commission on this area. We believe very much there should be workable alternatives to imprisonment for non payment of fines for civil debts. We have made submissions over the years to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and since 1997 have been consistent in making representation to different Ministers, setting out our position, namely, that we believe the current regime is anachronistic and should be repealed. Although IBF members have sought orders from time to time, no member has placed any debtor in prison for failure to pay his or her debts in 2008 or 2009. It is not a road down which we wish to travel.

Concerning regulation and getting the balance right, I ask members to look at the montage of an advertisement that is probably familiar, namely, "I don't know what a tracker mortgage is". It was humorous and excited a lot of interest at the time. There was, however, a serious message behind it, that consumer protection is an important subject. In the old regulatory regime, the balance was wrong in the way it was discharged between the consumer and the prudential mandate. That is in no way to be critical of the consumer mandate. In many ways, the consumer mandate and the way it was discharged was an example of best practice and benchmarked against our international peers, it performed very strongly.

My own view is that in the way in which those mandates were discharged, the consumer mandate was placed before the prudential mandate and ultimately prudential supervision is the guarantor of consumer rights. At the height of the crisis, when people were seriously concerned about their savings, the question they asked was if their money was safe, not if they knew what a tracker mortgage is.

In the future regulatory regime we must bear that in mind and ensure there is a strong focus on prudential supervision. I am not saying there should not be an emphasis on consumer protection but there must be an appropriate balance struck. If we learned one thing from the current regime it should be that at the time, in 2003, when the structure was set, the emphasis was on that side of things. There was a decision to separate the prudential supervisor on the banking side from the Central Bank, even though they were in the same authority. With the benefit of hindsight, that was probably the wrong decision.

The proposals currently before us to combine it into a single function are right. The prudential banking supervisor will be able to pool the intelligence and information collected with the financial stability mandate of the Central Bank. When the two are put together, there is a much more complete picture of what is happening in the economy, where threats are building up and where there may be systemic risk.

On the regulatory structure, it is important that mandates are balanced. It must be clear who is responsible for what in the regulator, with strong levels of accountability. More important than structures, however, is culture. We must have smart regulation and that can only happen if there are people of the necessary level of competence and expertise. I sit on the industry panel and in our previous reports, which can be accessed on our website, we consistently called for a stepping up of investment in expertise in human resources, training and IT, so there is an IT capacity to analyse and process huge volumes of information coming from the regulated entities. Those are the areas where there must be a focus in future. The shortcomings in the system are more cultural and are based on people rather than on structures. It is important that we fix that.

The issues that beset the domestic sector cannot solely dictate the regulatory approach because the wholesale international sector has a different set of requirements. We cannot manage all risk or we will kill financial innovation and stifle growth.

There has been a lot of debate about rules versus principles. A rules-based regime is not the panacea one might think. Across the global economy, there were failures in all jurisdictions and some of the greatest failures were in rules-based systems, such as in the United States and in Britain, where there were highly prescriptive rules-based regimes. There are areas where we need greater clarity and prescription but to focus solely on rules versus principles is a false argument.

We must also bear in mind that domestic regulation will not exist in the same autonomous way that it did in the past. We have learned from this crisis that these are global issues. The risks that got transmitted through the system and that caused the failures were global and therefore we must have a global response. Our regulatory system must evolve in tandem with what is happening at EU level, where a whole new supervisory framework is being set up.

There is also the question of the establishment of a systemic risk council to look at financial stability to see where in the EU risks might be building up, with asset price bubbles, and to then sound the appropriate warnings, asking national governments to take action. We must be fully plugged into that system and into everything that happens at international level through the financial stability board and other standard setters and regulators. There must be an alignment of regulatory effort around the areas of greatest systemic risk. That is what I mean by smart regulation. There must be a concentration of resources where the risks are greatest.

We are not a regulator, although we support regulation, and in that context I am happy to take questions.

I welcome Mr. Farrell and his colleagues and thank him for his presentation. We appreciate that they represent a trade body that covers all banks. The Irish Banking Federation is not a regulator but is concerned about world class regulation. The delegation has openly recognised the failure on the part of its members and the loss of trust that has resulted from what has happened in the last few years. We appreciate the understanding of the sense that people have been let down. Most people here regard the banks as being primarily responsible for the State's present financial woes in that they fuelled the greed and some of them participated in it.

The Minister is talking in the NAMA legislation about guidelines and credit. Small and medium enterprises are the lifeblood of the economy and we all want to get credit going again. That is why we must get the banking system back on its feet. Would the Irish Banking Federation agree, however, that these guidelines are mere window dressing because the banks are concerned about their capital base and capital ratios and will not be in a position to engage in lending?

I appreciate the remarks about fostering a stable banking system and the concern about standards in banking. How does the federation view the dual role position, chairman and chief executive, in one of the major banks? How does it view the position of directors? Directors, as we know from company law, share equal culpability for what has happened but a number of directors in some of these institutions are still on boards, even though they were there when the ship was steered onto the rocks. Most of senior management is still intact.

In the recapitalisation programme, €3.5 billion was voted to major banks and a 25% preference share holding was assumed, with possible further part-nationalisation by way of an ordinary shareholding. I would like to hear about the standards that were referred to. On the 51% private shareholding proposed in NAMA, even though the 49% shareholding can exercise a veto, will the banks or some SPV they concoct take up some of the shareholding?

I am concerned for the small guys, the people who will not be transferred to NAMA, those who owe between €1 million and €5 million. We do not want to see the banks coming down ferociously hard on them because that might halt or impede recovery in the economy. I would like the guests to address that matter.

I am afraid that there will be no overnight sea change in terms of culture. Unless I am wrong, many senior managements are still in place. Given house mortgages, insurance, credit cards, deposits and so on, the culture is one of sales and targets. This was the previous problem. There might not be enough money for bonuses now, but the bonuses for those at the top used to be driven by these targets. I subscribe to Mr. Farrell's statement that we need to return to some old-fashioned, good credential banking.

Does Mr. Farrell wish to respond? We will take each member individually.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I thank Senator Coghlan. In the debate the Minister stated his intention to develop the guidelines on credit. We await the detail. We are involved in a forum that meets regularly with ISME, SME the IFA, the Irish Hotels Federation and other groups that cover the sectors with which we do business. The SME lending situation is difficult and complex. On one level, the economy has shrunk by approximately 8%. Inevitably, the level of demand for credit will shrink. The recently commissioned Mazars report, another of which is due shortly, showed that the level of impairment of SME loans at the time was of the order of 20%. Banks have to be aware of this when lending to the SME sector. It is not interests of the economy or being mindful of the road we have just travelled in terms of risk management, to find ourselves making loans that cannot be repaid or are a poor risk.

Nevertheless, we need measures to stimulate the sector and meet demand. NAMA will provide more liquidity. In turn, banks should have more capacity to lend to small businesses when demand increases. While demand is currently subdued, it will increase once the global economy picks up, which seems to be starting. We are an export-oriented economy. When world demand drives SMEs to start filling their order books again, we need the capacity to be able to finance that activity and extend credit to them. As we do regularly, we will engage constructively with the key actors on any measures tabled by the Minister.

Directors and senior management must be accountable. We need to take responsibility for our actions. There has been a degree of change at the board and chief executive levels in the banks. The banking sector is going through a challenging period in terms of the variety of tasks before it. One cannot clean out the managements and boards of directors in one fell swoop and expect the system to continue functioning. One must be pragmatic, but there has been a degree of change.

The issue of corporate governance relates to this question. The Walker review of corporate governance has set out many changes and is increasing the responsibilities of directors and chairmen substantially. That debate will have its course, but our regulatory authorities will examine the question of corporate governance at an early opportunity and place a renewed emphasis on accountability and the role of directors, particularly in terms of risk, audits and so forth. Important lessons are to be learned.

Regarding the SPV for banks, I am not familiar with the specialist detail. The rationale is that the German authorities managed to secure a concession to keep their proposal to deal with the banking crisis off the balance sheet. This prompted the Government to seek the same terms. In creating and structuring the SPV, the Government would have been mindful of ensuring that the banks were not transferring assets to it and participating in the way described by the Senator. However, I must leave this to the details, as I am not sufficiently familiar with them.

Reverting to the Mazars report, the banks are displaying a considerable level of forbearance with people in the SME sector, those who have commercial loans and homeowners. I have been given no sense that borrowers from the banks not covered by NAMA will be treated differently. Given the emphasis on NAMA in the public statements, loans transferred into NAMA will be relentlessly pursued. Where the schedules of payments are not met, securities will be realised.

The culture will change. Speaking as someone working on behalf of the sector, we recognise that changes must be made. The emphasis on short-term profit is not a sustainable business model. We must construct banking in a simpler, more straightforward fashion and get back to basics. We must recognise that some of the instruments developed, those that were allegedly supposed to manage and diversify risk more effectively, were the seeds of the sector's meltdown. We have learned lessons in the regulation of the sector, in that there should be more supervision as opposed to regulation, which I view as ticking boxes or going through motions. Intensive supervision will be the order of the day, particularly for retail banks. Recognition has dawned across the sector that the old model is not sustainable.

My presentation's central premise was regaining trust. Trust is the foundation of banking, in that it gives permission to operate in society. The road will be difficult and onerous and we will need to make many changes and recognise our model's shortcomings if we are to enjoy the public's trust and confidence again.

I welcome Mr. Farrell, Mr. O'Regan and Ms O'Rourke. Mr. Farrell referred to the types of regulation the banks would consider. With due respect, they have no authority to dictate what type of regulatory system we should have. Light regulation got us into this mess. I humbly suggest that, had there been a rules-based system in which the Financial Regulator and Central Bank imposed more severe capital ratio requirements on the banks, we would not have had 100% mortgages or the escalation in the residential property market. The banks are in no position to dictate terms. There was reckless lending and Government regulation was complicit.

Mr. Farrell appeared before the finance committee various times. For example, he appeared before the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service on 13 May 2008 and, with the four main banks, on 2 July 2008. The latter time, we were told that the banking sector was robust. I will ask the same question today. Is our banking system robust?

The homeowner scheme announced by the banks today contains nothing new. A similar scheme already exists and will last until next February. It affords more protection for the banks than for the taxpayer because the former will be able to say their loans have a value for the six months in which the scheme is in place. Homeowners, however, are worried about repossession and after the six months have elapsed banks will be able to proceed with repossession orders against people who are not meeting their loan repayment schedules. If the banks want to put in place something which offers protection to the mortgage holder they would welcome a statutory scheme. Other jurisdictions are looking at introducing something which will take away the fear of repossession.

Can Mr. Farrell give us the number of home loans which have been approved by his members in the past 12 months and the level of arrears in what are regarded as distressed home loans? The banks made huge capital out of the Mazars report but they were very much curtailed in what they were able to publish. They gave no breakdown as between new and existing facilities. If another report is published on similar lines it will be of no great value because it will reveal the loans at the beginning and those at the end but very little in between. We need to know what new loans have been provided, what overdraft facilities have been made available, the level of the curtailment of existing overdraft facilities and details of rolled-up interest but none of that information was provided in the first report.

Mr. Farrell spoke about the facilities banks would offer when the market recovered but the biggest problem for existing businesses is the curtailment of their overdraft facilities and the renegotiation of their terms with higher interest charges. That may be good for the banks but many businesses will disappear in the next couple of years because of a lack of access to credit. It will have a domino effect in the business community as one trader cannot pay the butcher up the road, the butcher cannot pay his supplier and they both go out of business meaning jobs are lost. Banks are relying on NAMA to enable them to trade on and, while we do not agree with NAMA, in its absence the banks might not survive. Homeowners, however, are not being afforded the same level of relief.

Would the banks agree to the Government putting in place statutory protection for homeowners, with a moratorium and a commitment that repossessions would be made only as a last resort? It looks like homeowners will get a six-month breathing space, following which banks will be able to do what they wish with a mortgage holder.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I thank the Deputy for his remarks. I am sorry if I gave the wrong impression but I intended to stick to the topic of today's meeting. I do not assert that we are entitled to dictate the regulatory system which the country should adopt. I cannot remember saying anything which might have conveyed that impression but I am entitled to put forward a point of view. I acknowledged——

I am not questioning your right to put forward a point of view. There is a lack of trust and we need severe regulation.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I said on a several occasions. Anything I might have said at previous appearances before the committee was based on the level of knowledge I had and the information available to me at that time and I said it in good faith. The Financial Regulator, the Central Bank of Ireland and others have been before the committee and our state of knowledge was our state of knowledge.

The sector is stable and we have come back from the brink following the interventions made since last September. As the Deputy says, the focus must now be on getting the system working again in the interests of homeowners, SMEs and the real economy. That is how we will effect economic recovery and get back on the road to growth.

There is something substantial and new in the homeowners' scheme. It has been said that the moratorium, which was for six months in the case of non-covered banks and a year in other cases, was like a cliff face over the edge of which homeowners would fall at its expiry. The new scheme offers an added assurance for borrowers, provided they engage with their lender and enter into an arrangement if they are having difficulty. I am confident the vast majority of homeowners will be able to come to a satisfactory arrangement with their lender and the figures bear me out. The number of repossessions in the first half of this year stands at 21, out of hundreds of thousands of mortgages.

There is no comparison between us and other countries. Our banks have shown a high degree of forbearance and continue to do so. I do not seek credit for this because it is the right thing to do. Our announcement today was in response to the fact that some of our customers are having difficulties and shows that we should be there to support them.

The Mazars report was commissioned by the Department of Finance

Paid for by the banks.

Mr. Pat Farrell

The Mazars report was commissioned by the Department and carried out under its direction.

At a meeting of this committee Mazars stated that the banks were unable to provide them with a breakdown of new and existing business. I do not believe that is credible.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I was here on that day. They said they got full access to the files and sampled them for credit decisions. They found that the credit decisions were sensible and pragmatic in the circumstances

They said the absence of a breakdown between new and existing business was a major weakness of the report. Mr. Farrell has concentrated on new business but existing business is equally important.

Mr. Pat Farrell

Absolutely.

Businesses are having their overdraft facilities withdrawn or reduced by the banks and their terms are being changed. We got no insight into that in the Mazars report.

Mr. Pat Farrell

Businesses are having their overdrafts extended at the moment. The overdrafts are being converted into term loans because that is a cheaper form of finance than an overdraft. Banks are showing forbearance to businesses by repeatedly restructuring their finances.

I agree with Mr. Farrell on that point. However, banks are also withdrawing and curtailing overdraft facilities and increasing their margins by raising the interest rates they charge to customers. Mazars said the banks were unable to provide them with information as to the extent of the overdraft facilities which had been withdrawn or the level of rolled-up interest. When the Irish Banking Federation appeared before the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service on 2 July, which was less three months before the fateful night of 29 September, I am certain that it is credible to state that the banking system at that point in time was robust. If the banks are to work together there must be full disclosure in terms of the loan facilities. If the Mazars report is published and it is purely restricted to looking at lending in an holistic way without giving a breakdown, I am not sure it will have any great value in terms of ensuring that existing businesses under pressure survive. I do not think we will be getting a complete picture. I would like if the Irish Banking Federation would give a commitment here that the banks will be able to provide that level of disclosure to Mazars when it is doing its report.

Mr. Pat Farrell

The second Mazars report is under way. Obviously the first report had to be done reasonably quickly in order to arrive at some sense of the particular situation because there were many anecdotal reports in the public domain and we needed to get some clarity around the central issues. The first report was what it was. There is a second one under way. I imagine there will be regular reports in the period ahead on the state of——

We need a breakdown between new and existing business. That is a simple statement.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I know the report is under way at present but I do not know its level of detail in terms——

Mr. Felix O’Regan

I do not believe that breakdown is provided in the second report.

Mr. Felix O’Regan

In the forum through which the parameters for this report was identified, the difference between new and existing business was simply not identified.

Who makes up this forum?

Mr. Felix O’Regan

I know that the parameters for the Mazars report is determined by Mazars, as an independent commissioned party, obviously in consultation with the Departments of Finance and Enterprise, Trade and Employment, and some of that is also driven by the clearing group for credit supply.

With due respect, Mazars and Mr. O'Farrell appeared before the committee on the same day. They stated that there were major shortcomings in the report because the banks were unable to provide a breakdown between new and existing business. That is the kernel of it. I cannot understand——

Mr. Felix O’Regan

I do not deny what the Deputy has said. What I am saying is that the emphasis the Deputy is placing on that as a factor in the evaluation of the results is far greater than anything I have heard to date from any of the small business representative bodies, from Mazars or from any of the Departments. However, as Mr. Farrell has indicated, I am happy to take this back and see how we can stitch it in.

Mr. Felix O’Regan

I do not deny that Mazars has identified that. The extent to which it has a major bearing on the outcome and the results is not as significant as what I am hearing today from the Deputy.

I am getting it from small firms. We are getting it from existing businesses. What is the position in respect of arrears on mortgages? After the six-month period, can the Irish Banking Federation initiate legal proceedings on repossessions under the voluntary scheme it is proposing?

Mr. Pat Farrell

We are saying, as we said this morning, that in any situation where a borrower is engaged with a lender in pursuit of a solution there are many options available. If a person has lost employment and is in search of a new job, there can be a deferral of payments for a period, a roll-up of interest in the capital, an extension of term or an alteration of the actual payments for a period in terms of reducing the amount. There is a whole range of options and each one is deployed according to the particular circumstances of the individual concerned. That is why we have the very low level of repossessions and the high level of forbearance as lenders are actively working with borrowers who are in difficulty to tide them over in these challenging circumstances and will continue to do so.

What about the level of mortgage arrears and the growth of same in the past 12 months?

Ms Eimer O’Rourke

We do not have data on that but we understand it is being gathered by the Financial Regulator and would expect to see more data on that going forward.

I will have the date of it when it becomes available to the committee.

I welcome the delegation to the committee. It is extraordinary that there has been such a shift in the language from the Irish Banking Federation. We are now into the language of corporate governance and corporate social responsibility, trust, regulation and regaining of trust. It is as if there has been a sea change in terms of attitudes within the banking sector. If the story on the ground is to be believed, it would appear that for real people who bank in this country there has been absolutely no change whatsoever in the culture and that the small businesses and the like continue to be squeezed. Why is it that the banks are cutting off credit to small businesses? It is impossible to get figures. If I line up 100 people, small businesses, I can guarantee that at least 60% to 70% will say there has been a surreptitious squeezing of their credit lines. There is no question about that and one cannot deny it. I ask the Irish Banking Federation to come clean about it and state why it is doing it, how long it will continue and give some degree of transparency to that notion.

I listened carefully to what the witnesses said about the difference between the consumer mandate and the prudential mandate in terms of supervision. They said that the consumer mandate was prioritised over prudential supervision. To my mind, that is another way of hanging the pre-existing regulator out to dry. I do not believe for one moment that the witnesses cared one jot about the whole regulatory regime in this country in recent years because, metaphorically speaking, you were all like pigs at a trough making potloads of money and the whole regulatory regime did not exist. I remain to be convinced as to whether the witnesses are genuine when they say they will buy into the new European regulatory framework. We will all watch Brussels and the position of the Irish Banking Federation and its lobbying arm at the European table on whether it will buy into new supervisory EU rules. It remains to be seen whether it is genuine in that regard.

I wish to ask about the SPV again because I did not quite understand the answer given by the Irish Banking Federation. Is it that the witnesses do not fully understand the nature of the SPV as it relates to NAMA or that they have not been given any direction from the Government as to whether the banks could be investors in the private segment of that particular vehicle? Will they clarify their understanding of the SPV at present? If they say they are not sure how it will pan out, then it beggars belief to a layman like me that a chief executive of the Irish Banking Federation would come before an Oireachtas committee and state that.

In regard to the mutually acceptable arrangement or the formal agreement with MABS, will the Irish Banking Federation and the banks in this country take an active, fiduciary stake to ensure that MABS will be able to operate at an efficient level? The reason I ask that question is that the people who approach me with mortgage difficulties, whom I refer to MABS, have to wait three, four or five weeks to get an appointment. MABS is currently at the pin of its collar. I am sceptical when I hear bankers saying they are now working with MABS as active stakeholders in seeking to ease the burden for people who find themselves in financial difficulty. If the witnesses tell me there is formal agreement there I will take that in good faith. If the banks are about to become active stakeholders in the MABS process — I realise we are talking about a State body — by lending personnel or making a financial contribution, I welcome that. However, I would like an expansion of the explanation to determine the qualitative nature of the relationship.

Mr. Farrell stated that there had been 21 repossessions, but how many applications for repossession have the banks made? There is a difference between the number of repossessions in a particular year and the number of applications made. For example, if the bank was about to repossess my house tomorrow morning, the chances are that I would go to see my bank manager on an informal basis and we would seek to work things out. The distinction between applications and actual repossession must be made. This is related to the announcement today about the six-month grace period for mortgage holders who cannot meet their payments. I give credit to the federation for stating it would extend that period beyond six months if necessary. However, unless it is put on a statutory basis, the level of trust in the banks may be a bit sketchy. We remain doubtful.

I would like to see a shift in corporate social responsibility. I am a customer of a bank and my relationship with the bank on a local level is quite a good one which, like all customers, I have built over time. However, for many people at the moment it seems to be a one-way street. I do not think customers feel, necessarily, that the banking regime is working in their favour in assisting them, their own customers, in getting out of the difficulties they are in.

Mr. Pat Farrell

For some time I have publicly acknowledged our role in this regard and I will continue to do so because it is important that it is said often. There has been a change in culture which has had many influences. I recognise that mistakes were made and they have had consequences for the wider society. We need to learn from them.

With regard to the issue of credit to SMEs, let us go back to the report that dare not speak its name lest it ignite controversy. A total of €35 billion has been extended as credit to SMEs and there is more than €3.5 billion worth of unused overdraft facilities. There are businesses that are struggling, and thousands of decisions are being made on a daily basis about applications by SMEs for credit. I am sure that at the margins there are applications being approved which should not be, on a risk-based assessment, and applications being denied which should be approved. We cannot get every decision right.

What are the percentages in that regard? Mr. Farrell is saying he is sure some applications are being treated in certain ways. Is he saying there are lines of credit extended to people who should not have them?

Mr. Pat Farrell

I am saying that intuitively. I do not have figures with regard to how much is declined and how much is approved. The figure in the Mazars report, which must be revisited, was that 86% of all applications for credit were being approved.

It is all in the detail, with due respect.

Mr. Pat Farrell

A total of 86% of applications were being approved. The report also stated that for the applications being rejected, from the sample of files the authors reviewed, the grounds for refusal were reasonable. The other thing we must bear in mind is that the demand for credit has significantly reduced. Businesses are retrenching and conserving their cash, and their order books are much smaller than they were at the height of the economic boom. This has all led to a depression in the demand for credit, which is driving the credit figures as much as anything else. That needs to be recognised.

With regard to regulation, I am a member of the industry panel of the Financial Regulator, and have been since its inception. If members care to go back and read the reports, which were published on a regular basis and discussed here on certain occasions, they will see we said time and again that there needed to be more investment in training and expertise, human resources and so on. We took an active interest in the regulatory regime and put forward proposals we felt would improve the situation.

The IBF is on the record, publicly, as saying it welcomes the new EU regulatory framework. Through our membership of the European Banking Federation, a meeting of which I attended last week, we have supported the moves towards building a stronger regulatory system across the EU. Ultimately, we cannot get our arms around the risks in the financial system by trying to silo them on a national basis. We must be able to look across the system and follow the risk, which is increasingly reposed in institutions that do not operate conveniently on a national, border-by-border basis but reach right across the globe. We found that out when Lehman Brothers failed; it spread like a poison through the whole system.

The UK has a more critical stance because it is concerned about preserving the pre-eminence of London as a financial centre. Its stance is much more sceptical. However, we are unambiguously on the side of the proposals that have been put forward at EU level and we will continue to support them.

I would like some clarification on that. Is Mr. Farrell stating that the Irish Banking Federation supports the current European Commission proposal without qualification?

Mr. Pat Farrell

Absolutely. We have a position paper which states that clearly. It goes back to something we were talking about earlier. The IFSC represents 30,000 jobs, and these companies are here because they can establish a European base — particularly American banks — and have passporting rights across Europe. They will only continue to do business here with confidence if they feel we are up to speed with the EU regulatory framework and fully support everything that is happening at European level. There is self-interest here as well as the fact that we absolutely need to subscribe to international best practice. That is what is needed to restore our reputation. I am clear on that.

A question was asked about the special purpose vehicle in NAMA, and I mentioned where it came from in terms of the German initiative. I do not have any direct involvement or negotiations with regard to NAMA as an entity or the legislation concerning it. These discussions are taking place on a bilateral basis with the individual banks because they are all in different situations. That is why my level of knowledge is such as it is. I was asked whether banks would be able to pass assets into NAMA and then become involved with funding. My understanding is that this would not be the case, but that is simply my understanding; in terms of the shape of the legislation, I would expect this would not happen.

We have not become involved directly with MABS, but my colleague Mr. O'Regan, who has had a long association with MABS — since even before my time — might elaborate on the nature of the relationship.

Mr. Felix O’Regan

We have a ten-year working relationship with MABS, which led, in the early years of the decade, to the establishment of a debt settlement pilot scheme. That was the first real attempt to establish a way of resolving debt problems without going down the court route. The output has informed the thinking of the Law Reform Commission and its publication of the consultation document. Its objective now is to try to roll out, on a national level, some form of debt enforcement system that does not have the red-tape formality and costs associated with court action. This is a concept we support; much of it stems from the debt settlement pilot scheme we developed with MABS some years ago. That has been followed in more recent times with the protocol on debt management which is designed to put communication systems or channels in place between MABS, which works on behalf of the customers and our member institutions, which lend to them. This is to try to ensure, as much as possible, that the matter does not go down the legal route but can be resolved through the intervention of MABS. Those initiatives, like the latest one today and our thinking in general, have been very much informed by MABS. We work with it and it comes to the table with us to say that such and such is an issue and we ought to work on it together. More often than not we work to try to deliver on that. We have not always been successful but our commitment has always been to try to deliver an operational model that will meet the requirements as MABS sees them.

In every sense other than the one to which the Deputy referred, namely, fiduciary investment and financial support, we have fully supported MABS and in turn it has fully supported our genuine effort and response to meet the agenda it presents to us.

If Mr. Farrell answers the question about the number of applications for repossession I am sure Mr. O'Regan can tell me how many of those people were referred to MABS in the first instance before IBF members made those applications. I am not being disingenuous about this.

Mr. Felix O’Regan

A small number of those would have been referred.

Perhaps Mr. O'Regan might answer my question on the number of applications for repossession.

Mr. Felix O’Regan

The Courts Service has the statistics. We can certainly furnish them, as we did following the last meeting with the committee when we came back with figures as supplied and published by the Courts Service. They are in the few hundreds. The smaller proportion would be accounted for by our members; the larger by institutions and subprime lenders that are not members of the IBF.

The other very significant point, and the record bears this out, is the very low correlation between the number of applications for repossession and actual repossession. I would go so far as to say——

If Mr. O'Regan can say that definitively then he can give me the numbers.

Mr. Felix O’Regan

I shall come back with the hard figures but can tell the Deputy the correlation is somewhere in the order of 7% to 9% of applications granted for repossession which end up as repossession. All the Deputy needs to do is take the figures we have produced. The only figures we compile that we are able to stand over definitely are the figures for actual repossession. If one traces back to the number of applications over the years that have gone through the courts one can work out that statistic for oneself.

Mr. Pat Farrell

We can be very transparent and definitive about this because this is no secret. According to the Courts Service which supplies the information the number of repossessions is in the hundreds and, as we reported earlier, the number of our repossessions, based on having gone through the court process, was 21 for the first six months of the year. That bears out our contention that it is a fraction.

Returning to a point I made earlier, there is a distinction between two types of borrowers — those who cannot pay and those who will not pay. In the case of the latter, one has to exhaust every process including up to and bringing the borrower through the court process. In many cases people will come to an arrangement. The process or trying to come to an arrangement is not suddenly set aside because a legal process is under way. A solution is found in many of those cases before that penultimate stage is reached.

My colleague, Deputy Ciarán Lynch, will speak in greater detail on this. We are trying to establish how it might be possible to ease the burden for mortgage holders who find themselves suddenly unemployed. Given what we have read about the banking sector and the goings on in recent years I must have a sense that I can go back to my constituents in Cork East and tell them with some degree of confidence that if they find themselves in trouble with their mortgage there is a good chance the new six-month regime will work. Because of the level of mistrust of the banking sector at present there are still questions about that process and whether it will work if it is not put on a statutory footing.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I understand the Deputy's scepticism and his comments in that respect. I can only say that effectively there is already forbearance on a statutory basis, in the covered institutions and all others. The IBF has gone beyond that. I return to the figures which speak for themselves. Benchmarked against any other jurisdiction with a similar level of distress concerning people in difficulties with mortgage borrowings, our reality is fundamentally different. That is based on the fact that the banking sector takes a fundamentally different approach to this situation, namely, one that involves a very high degree of forbearance. That is borne out by the figures, not alone those developed by the IBF but those that are independently collected and adjudicated.

I thank Mr. Farrell for his presentation. He addressed three issues; first, the defence and plugging of the bank system of the member institutions; second, the mortgage holders and debt control; and third, regulation. With regard to the first I am getting mixed messages. Mr. Farrell mentioned global issues as being a problem but also spoke of the pursuit of short-term profit. Does he accept that the bubble and the high prices of houses and land at present and when bought were primarily the responsibility of the banks because of their pursuit of short-term profit? Share price was to be inflated and the seven-figure salaries of senior executives in the banks were justified and increased on the basis of such profit and higher share prices.

Perhaps Mr. Farrell might answer that question and then I have another. I believe, as do many people, the banks have a primary and senior responsibility with regard to this which has not been accepted fully.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I already said, not for the first time, that we fully accept our role in the situation. Risk management was not what it should have been. Credit was too easy. My message was not intended to be mixed. I said there were two dimensions to the crisis. At global level there was a huge meltdown based on a flawed model of investment banking. I differentiated that because we did not have much investment banking in this country and did not have in our main High Street banks any substantive investment activity.

In September last year Lehman Brothers failed and because banks had got into wholesale funding to a very significant extent funds became very scarce. That was a separate issue from the bubble in land and property prices. I am looking at that angle in particular and the banks' responsibility for that.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I am not sure if the Deputy was present at the outset when I specifically stated that here we had our own home-grown crisis, all of our own making. We developed an asset price bubble which was based on a sustained period of easy credit. I made that distinction at the outset. There was a global context and a big crisis in investment banking globally but that does not take away from the fact that we cooked many of our own issues at home.

Mr. Farrell mentioned that we now must have the strength of character and moral compass to do the right thing. We still have in place a significant number of people concerning whom it is questionable whether they had strength of character and moral compass at that time to do the right thing. What has changed in the meantime in respect of their character or moral compass?

Mr. Pat Farrell

I was speaking on this topic earlier and I said there has been significant change across the boards and senior management in the banks. That process is still under way. At the very time when the banks face huge challenges in terms of moving to the stabilisation phase and addressing issues such as the flow of credit, they must also maintain the core of expertise. If there is a sudden elimination of that expertise, it will not serve the best interests of the wider economy or the Government's investment in these institutions. This is a process. There has been acknowledgment at leadership level across the banks that mistakes were made and there has been some turn-over at chief executive level and chairman level.

Senator Coghlan mentioned one institution where there is still an issue about a senior executive.

It was said that without NAMA the banks will not survive. Will they survive with NAMA? I reckon that AIB needs about €5 billion to €6 billion in capitalisation when the assets are transferred, while Bank of Ireland will need €3 billion to €4 billion. Am I correct about the order of magnitude? Where in the name of God will they get it apart from the hard pressed taxpayer? Why should AIB and Bank of Ireland not be nationalised? I hate to say the word but I advocate significant public ownership of both of those banks. Does Mr. Farrell have any comments on the need for further capitalisation and ownership of the banks by those who will have to fund them?

Mr. Pat Farrell

In the case of the two largest banks, the Government and taxpayers already have a stake that is being remunerated at the rate of 8% and have warrants they can exercise that would, at current share prices, deliver a return for the taxpayer.

The broader question can only be eventually settled, although there has been speculation about the levels of capital, when we know the detail of the valuation of individual loan portfolios that are taken across. That will then determine, based on the capital position of the banks, what additional capital they will require. The Government has specifically stated that it stands ready to be a source of capital should there be a shortfall. There have also been statements to the effect that individual banks have other options, such as divestment of certain assets.

The EU will play a role here because for every market where there has been government intervention, the EU has said that under the state aid rules, each of the banks concerned must submit a viability plan setting out the business model for the future. For me to come up with a precise figure for the level of capital is totally speculative. There are plenty of commentators naming a range of figures. We will ultimately know when the loans have been moved across. The Government has stated that it is prepared to be a source of capital and that it believes the best option is to keep the route to market open to banks so they can avail of private capital. That is an important option to keep open.

International commentators have been prepared to talk about nationalisation but broadly speaking they have supported the general approach at present. The EU supports the interventions that have taken place and organisations such as the OECD and the IMF have been broadly supportive.

In his book "Ship of Fools", Fintan O'Toole mentioned the IFSC, saying it is made up of ghost banks and brass plate companies and that it has been labelled, particularly in Britain, as "Liechtenstein on the Liffey". The Irish Banking Federation says it has been there for 20 years and employs 30,000 people. Should we give any credence to the disbelievers regarding IFSC? Will it be there in the future, taking into account what has happened in the global financial situation? Is it still good for Ireland?

Mr. Pat Farrell

I gave some figures on the contribution it makes — it is responsible for almost 35% of service exports and employs 30,000 people, with double that number working as service providers on the south side of the docks. It is not just confined to Dublin, the IFSC has a substantial number of companies located in Cork involved in funds administration and, increasingly, many IFSC companies locate operations outside Dublin. MBNA is located in Carrick on Shannon, with others in Cork, Shannon and Limerick. It has a future.

Going back to Fintan O'Toole's remark about "Liechtenstein on the Liffey", we are a great country for alliteration but the reality is that comment was made by Lord Oakeshott, a British peer. When I last looked at the OECD list of tax havens, however, there were 37, of which 29 enjoyed British dominion status. Lord Oakeshott should look closer to home before he starts pegging stones across the Irish Sea. The last time I looked, we were not on the OECD list, we are seen as a fully compliant country. Most recently the OECD pointed the finger at countries such as Austria, Luxembourg and the Netherlands. We still enjoy the status of a fully tax compliant country. We have tax treaties across the world.

Companies such as Citigroup, which employs 2,000 in the IFSC and which supplies leading edge solutions in banking technology and transaction systems for the Citigroup across Europe, the Middle East and Africa, are located in the IFSC.

That is all back office work.

Mr. Pat Farrell

No, Citigroup has a substantial investment in research and development.

It does not have a trading floor in Dublin.

Mr. Pat Farrell

A trading floor is not a prerequisite. These are substantial companies. I am offended at the notion that a committee member would level that charge against a company that employs 2,000 people. Of its essence it cannot be a brass plate operation if it employs 2,000 people.

With all due respect, you work for that company.

Mr. Pat Farrell

Brass plate conjures up the notion of four or five people working in an office deep in the recesses of the IFSC. That is the distinction I am making.

Some of the banks are brass neck operations.

I would like to respond to that for fear my remarks are misinterpreted. I am very mindful of the fact that we need to protect jobs in the financial services sector, I worked in that sector. I am concerned about the damage that has been done to our international reputation by practices in the banking sector. That is where I am coming from.

Mr. Pat Farrell

We are ad idem on this. While it will be difficult in the current situation and righteous anger can be focused on particular issues, we must remember that our sector employs 90,000 people, 45,000 of whom are in banking.

No one denies that.

Mr. Pat Farrell

These are high-quality jobs.

Things must change.

May I say something?

I have two short questions.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I have acknowledged the need for change.

On a point of order and before anyone else contributes, are many other speakers on offer? I must leave for a vote.

I have four other speakers.

Then I shall leave for now.

My two questions can be banked with others. In terms of assisting with mortgage arrears, helping people and developing the relationship with MABS, how does it feel for the banking system to be in the roles of Santa Claus and the Society of St. Vincent de Paul after all the years of straight banking?

Mr. Pat Farrell

These people are our customers. If we do not have customers, we do not have a business. We must stand with and offer support to those who own their principal private dwellings in these situations. I do not pretend that we are getting everything right in respect of SMEs, but I hope that we are beginning to get more right than wrong. From where I sit, we are making genuine efforts to meet the types of issues pertaining. I can understand people's righteous anger and sense of hurt. One would not be human if one did not. However, we are still focused on trying to get on with the job and offering practical support to every segment of our banking customer base.

I have a final question on the Irish Banking Federation. It has been around for the changes in the financial system. As an entity, does it accept some responsibility for the banking system's failure in recent years?

Mr. Pat Farrell

I do not want to create the impression of "small us", but we are a body that represents a trade sector. Comprising 18 people, we have few resources, but our job is to represent the sector's interests. It is a legitimate activity. I would like to believe that we played a constructive role. Long before any of these issues became so visceral or urgent, we tried to develop protocols to help people experiencing mortgage difficulties. We did that in 2000.

We were guilty of not seeing what was occurring, but we share this failing with regulatory authorities, the Government and the whole of the system. No one saw it coming. Everyone stated that Lehman Brothers failing would have no consequence, but those consequences drove us to the edge of the cliff. I will again acknowledge that we made mistakes, that changes must be made and that things must be done differently.

As a guest, I thank the committee for allowing me to speak. I welcome the IBF. I wish to discuss the home owner's pledge announced by the IBF today, but I will first refer to Deputy Ardagh's comment. Will Mr. Farrell clarify? He mentioned that viability plans will be carried out after debts have been moved from the banks' books to NAMA. Is it within his scope of prediction that some of the banks represented by the IBF might not be able to furnish viability plans? Will they be viable after NAMA? When the chief executive answers this question, I will proceed with the main part of my contribution.

Mr. Pat Farrell

Every institution will supply a viability plan, but it will be for the EU to determine whether the plan is fit for purpose and which aspects should be amended. We have already seen some sight of how the process will work, in that institutions outside our jurisdiction which were the beneficiaries of state aid after being similarly affected were required to supply viability plans and submit restructuring plans. The EU's point of view has been clear. Without giving names, some large, global players in the United States and elsewhere have been told that they must divest themselves of sizable parts of their business. Closer to home, RBS was told to do this.

I cannot speculate as to what shape it will take, but it is important that our sector be viable in terms of competition and choice. It behoves us to keep this in mind. One could argue that there was more than enough competition in the market at the height of the Celtic tiger. As we go through the next phase, we do not want insufficient competition. I say this as someone who wants to represent the sector, but I want it to be a competitive one. I would not be interested in representing it were there insufficient competition in our SME or home mortgage business or so on. People have a right to choice.

Oddly enough, some analyses of recent years show that competition in the sector was the major contributor to driving mortgage prices upwards. Lending practices were loosened as a result of competition. It is a double-edged sword.

I will turn to my main motivation for attending this meeting. I listened to the opening of the delegation's presentation. It was like an act of contrition when we were told that the IBF got it badly wrong. Who will serve the penance after the contrition is exercised this afternoon? There will be a lot of penance.

I strongly reject the assertion that no one saw this coming down the track. Ten or 15 years ago, the average mortgage was on a 20-year schedule and was three to four times the income of the primary earner plus a measurement of the income of the household's secondary earner. During the past ten years, that ratio quadrupled in some instances, mortgage schedules increased to 35 and 40 years and the entry price for a first-time buyer exceeded what would be considered affordable. Indeed, affordable homes, despite being subsidised, were trading for in excess of €250,000. These figures were so far off the map that it is only now, after the market has collapsed, we know the properties' real values.

Setting aside the banking rules, the census figures between 2002 and 2006 showed a net increase of 181,563 households. This represents demand. During the same period, 260,718housing units were built. This represents supply. There was an excess of 80,000 units, a variance of 30%. Even though there was an oversupply of 30%, house prices still increased. This turns the law of the market on its head. Certain questions must be asked about why prices increased. Land prices also continued to increase. Although this suggests an unsustainable supply, an examination of the period actually shows a false demand. It drove prices up and was facilitated by falling standards in the delegation's sector. Credit was easier to obtain, regulation was light touch, interest rates were low and subsidies and incentives provided by the Government drove up house prices. It beggars belief that the price of a product should increase when supply is 30% greater than demand. How does the delegation interpret this phenomenon and the reason for it?

I regard the statement of intent issued by the Irish Banking Federation this morning as window dressing. It is noteworthy that it coincides with the delegation's visit to the Oireachtas. Members of the federation would not have got out the door today if they had chosen not to make an announcement on house repossessions given the attention the issue received in the Dáil last week. The statement of intent issued this morning refers to "changed economic circumstances". Those who took out mortgages in recent years certainly face changed economic circumstances, whether a decline in income or the loss of employment by one or both spouses or partners in a household.

The statement of intent does not refer to a range of factors other than the economic downturn which contributed to the difficulties facing householders, specifically the lending practices of the financial institutions and their duty of care, a term that is synonymous with banking. What is the banks' duty of care to borrowers given the loose lending practices in which lenders engaged in recent years, including 100% mortgages, "hello" type introductory mortgage packages and mortgage terms of 35 or 40 years? We even had cases of grandparents being required to underwrite mortgages.

The Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS, is strongly associated with Cork city. It was not established to deal with banks but to deal with dodgy money lenders operating on the side streets of Cork city. It is ironic that the role of MABS has been expanded to deal with the dodgy lending practices of the financial institutions. While I have great respect for the Money Advice and Budgeting Service, it is not the solution to the problem. We need a legislative framework and statutory code to deal with the banking institutions. MABS does not have the necessary teeth to do so, nor can it influence the actions of the banks. While it can offer as much advice as it likes, the various MABS offices are independent, stand-alone structures which are put to the pin of their collar trying to meet the demands placed on their services.

The Labour Party position was made clear in a proposal made in a Private Members' motion tabled in the Dáil last week. A national home mortgage service or similar structure is required. It must operate within a legislative framework and deal intrinsically with the type of assessments needed to compel banks to honour their duty of care to borrowers.

Notwithstanding the statement issued today, the banks continue to have the upper hand and borrowers remain subservient to the process. Who will oversee the Irish Banking Federation's oversight committee? What reporting mechanisms and sanctions will be in place? While the statement of intent sounds fine in theory, has any bank or building society been censured for failing to comply with the terms of the code of conduct? No explanation has been given as to how the code will be policed and the consequences for non-compliance? Is the code of conduct toothless?

Government and Opposition Deputies continue to raise lending practices engaged in by the lending institutions. It appears, for example, that 100% mortgages are still available on the high street. Is that the case? Are members of the Irish Banking Federation providing this type of mortgage product?

We face a serious problem. While people can be accused of talking our problems up or down, the figures speak for themselves. Approximately 16,000 mortgages are in difficulty, 14,000 households have been granted mortgage interest supplement and the number of repossessions before the courts taken by subprime lenders and IBF members are only the tip of the iceberg. The Economic and Social Research Institute predicts that almost 200,000 mortgages will be in negative equity by the end of the year. The level of mortgage debt which is in stress equates to approximately €3.5 billion.

The delegation is correct that the number of repossessions is relatively small. I understand the baseline rate of repossessions predicted by those who provide insurance against mortgage default is 1.5%. The Irish Banking Federation has indicated the problem is much smaller, with repossessions likely to be only half the 1.5% figure. If that is the case, why not have a two-year moratorium? I was led to believe during last week's debate on the Labour Party Private Members' motion that the banks would not be able to bear a two and a half year moratorium as it would undermine confidence in the banks on the international front. If the figures are as low as the banks suggest, surely there is scope for a two year moratorium.

I restate my main questions. Which members of the Irish Banking Federation have been censured? Is the IBF monitoring the code of conduct? Will Mr. Farrell explain his members' resistance to extending the moratorium on repossessions to two and a half years?

Mr. Pat Farrell

I did not state that no one saw the problem coming. What I meant — I hope it is also what I said — was that nobody saw the scale of what was coming. Many countries have suffered asset price bubbles such as that which we have experienced. The context which has made it so severe here is that the global economic downturn hit Ireland, a small export orientated economy, when we were having home grown problems. I fully acknowledge our part in this. The combination of these two factors was what nobody saw happening at that point.

Be that as it may, as regards whether mortgage lending was competitive or uncompetitive, over the past ten years the Irish mortgage market has been highly competitive in terms of pricing and product availability. As I stated with regard to the optimum number of players in a market, one cannot regulate the market in that way. Competition on the high street among mortgage providers was huge and we still have some of the most competitively priced mortgage products in Europe.

It was a contributing factor in driving up the cost of the product.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I have acknowledged that easy credit played its part and I have not sought to minimise that. I am not in the business of talking the problem up or down. I am fundamentally trying to deal with it, which is the reason we made this proposition. It was not motivated by our appearance before the joint committee today. The subject matter we were invited to discuss did not have anything to do with the area we are discussing. It was specifically on the issue of compliance with regulation, although I am not surprised that we have not discussed the subject matter envisaged. It was specifically related to compliance with regulation. That was something we had been considering for some time among our various committees and it had its natural conclusion. I ask the Deputy to accept that in good faith.

I am not aware of members offering 100% mortgages. Currently, the challenge for borrowers is to get a deposit to make up the balance to purchase a home. As to what is on a statutory basis, the fact is that the six-month moratorium is ring-fenced in terms of safeguards for——

Mr. Farrell mentioned that there is a recovery period, that economic growth would be slow and borrowing and other issues must be considered in the long term. For a person made redundant this week, it might take a year or 18 months for him to get back on his feet. The type of moratorium I and the Labour Party propose is based on acceptance that borrowers have obligations which they must meet, but that a moratorium must also offer redemption. In the current economic climate, real redemption is over an 18 month to two-year period. Redemption cannot be acquired by someone within the next six to 12 months if he or she becomes redundant.

Mr. Pat Farrell

It is a matter of debate as to when the economy will pick up. The European Union said that Irish economic growth will begin again in 2011. It will be 2.4% above the EU trend average. That is the EU assessment of it.

What we are saying is that a range of options is available for people to enter into an arrangement with their lender. That is borne out by the figures which tell their own story about the level of forbearance the banks apply in those situations. We will give people a six-month window during which there is an absolute assurance that no legal process will be instigated, and then the situation will be reviewed at the end of that period.

Is there a maximum of 12 months?

Mr. Pat Farrell

No, we are saying that it is an ongoing situation and that we will continue to review the position at six monthly intervals with the customer concerned, and review the circumstances to see where we are at.

What criteria will be used?

I have to debate legislation in the Dáil and speak on Private Members' time so——

We will allow Deputy Lynch to finish his point first.

What criteria will be used?

Mr. Pat Farrell

The primary criteria will be that the customer, given his or her circumstances, is making an honest endeavour to deal with the situation. Of necessity, it means that in many cases they will not be able to meet their full repayments, but if an honest commitment is made to deal with the situation the lender will reciprocate. In those circumstances the lender will not resort to legal action. The figures are there. I know that the level of repossession orders is higher than the number of repossessions but that, again, is evidence of the fact that, as these things work through, when one gets to the point of truth on whether houses have been repossessed the number is very small. That is not to deny that it is a personal tragedy and trauma for anyone who suffers repossession. I acknowledge that fully, but because many people seek reassurance the message has to go out to them that the sector is prepared to engage with them and to meet people half way in these difficult circumstances.

I have a few short questions.

Might I just clarify——

I am sorry, go ahead Deputy.

I have still not received an answer to my question on who is policing or monitoring the code of conduct. Perhaps in Mr. Farrell's response to Deputy O'Dowd he might include a reference to that. Is Mr. Farrell saying that what was announced this morning facilitates the potential for a roll-over moratorium of six months to exceed 12 months and extend for two years?

Mr. Pat Farrell

We are saying that as long as the customer continues to engage with the lender and make his or her best endeavours to deal with the situation that we will continue to set aside the legal process route.

I advise Mr. Farrell to notify the Government because, according to what was said last week, it is very much of the view that any moratorium that extends beyond 12 months sends a negative signal to the international banking market. That was the line trotted out by the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Mansergh, last week.

I have to deal with transport legislation in the Dáil and I also have to contribute on Private Members' time. However, in the current climate I thought it important to remain at this meeting. I have a few short points to make.

I welcome Mr. Farrell. The people who are in contact with me say they will never be satisfied until the crooks who were at the heart of the banking system are in chains in prison. They feel so strongly about what has happened, especially when they are faced with the appalling vista of the budget and cutbacks in social welfare. No matter where they go their expenditure is increasing and they have less income. The ordinary person is being crucified.

I wish to deal specifically with people in mortgage difficulties who have contacted me recently. Some of them are with a wonderful company called Start Mortgages, others are with traditional lending agencies. Both sets of borrowers have been put in the position that due to reckless lending to them, perhaps based on a degree of expectation on their part that overtime payments would continue or that both spouses would remain in employment, they are left in the position that they cannot pay their mortgage and they will never be able to pay it in the current circumstances.

One of the problems is that they cannot get the subsidy from the Health Service Executive because the position of the community welfare officer is that they borrowed money recklessly and therefore no help will be provided to pay the money back. There must be a significant number of people who are experiencing mortgage difficulties, with Start Mortgages in particular, and other lenders, who are not getting help from the HSE because they are deemed to have borrowed recklessly. Does Mr. Farrell accept that the banks and other lenders are responsible for the reckless lending that has occurred and that they have an obligation to assist those people who are in peril of losing their homes?

I respect Mr. Farrell as an individual. These are not personal comments but the fact is that bank repossessions come at the end of a vale of tears for people who are being crucified day in and day out. Some people who contact me say they cannot pay their mortgage and that they intend to just leave the house. They are in an absolutely hopeless situation. Notwithstanding all the nice things Mr. Farrell is saying, what will he do to help them? Some borrowers with Start Mortgages are on high interest rates of up to 8%. Could Mr. Farrell bring such borrowers into the lending institutions for which he is responsible so that they could avail of the normal, current interest rates? If that were possible then in several cases people would be able to make their repayments. Part of the difficulty people face is that once they default on one payment the Irish Credit Bureau has them nailed and they cannot go to any other lender. A significant crisis exists. Will Mr. Farrell address that issue in his reply?

Are or were Mr. FitzPatrick and Anglo Irish Bank members of the Irish Banking Federation? Have they been kicked out? What action does the federation take to police its members? What accountability is there in the organisation for people who have clearly broken the law? The credibility of all the banking institutions is at stake.

I disagree with Mr. Farrell. He was asked a question about whether there should be real change. In the case of one bank, which I presume was the reason for the question, what people want is absolute and total change at the top, just like in a political system. They do not want any people hanging on who had responsibility or accountability for the awful trauma those people are putting the country through. I make that point in particular in regard to Allied Irish Banks.

Mr. Pat Farrell

At the risk of repeating myself, we recognise that changes are required. Everyone accepts that the business model that existed, the pursuit of short-term profit, was not a sustainable one. We have to get back to a much more basic, traditional model of banking. Over-reliance on the wholesale markets as a source of funding came to grief.

Will Mr. Farrell please get to the point?

Mr. Pat Farrell

I am addressing Deputy O'Dowd's point that the culture was wrong. As regards repossessions — I accept that they are the sharp end of the road — with the initiative we announced today, and other initiatives, we hope to ensure that along that road people have the maximum degree of reassurance that they are being supported. It is a question of ensuring they are not living with uncertainty, perhaps for two years, and feeling there is no source of help or engagement before the ultimate step of repossession. There is engagement.

I refer specifically to the people who are not getting help from the HSE, which deems them not to have borrowed——

Mr. Pat Farrell

In the case of people who are not getting help from the HSE, our members are talking regularly to people about restructuring and rescheduling their mortgages. This continues to be the case. Institutions engaged by those in the circumstances described are prepared to work through the issues.

What about those who borrowed from institutions that are not members of the IBF? What about those who borrowed from Start Mortgages?

Mr. Pat Farrell

They are outside our membership.

They are in the banking system legally.

Mr. Pat Farrell

They are in the banking system and are regulated.

The IBF cannot wash its hands of them.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I am not washing my hands of them at all but saying the institutions are not members of the IBF. When we produced the MABS protocol, we stated that institutions that were not members were free to adopt it if they wished to do so. It was adopted in the case of the institution to which the Deputy refers. With regard to what we announced this morning, I mentioned in a media interview that if the institutions wish to sign up to our statement of intent, we will be happy to go along with this. That is as much as I can do in the circumstances. The entities are all regulated ultimately.

What about reckless lending?

Mr. Pat Farrell

The Deputy refers to those who broke the law. There is a process and we must determine——

When I say "reckless lending" I refer to mortgages that cannot be paid back. The HSE says the mortgage holders should not have borrowed the damned money in the first place. Those affected bought their house, made repayments for a year or two and are now caught. They cannot pay anything because the interest rate is too high.

Mr. Pat Farrell

In those situations, the lender is prepared to sit down with them and determine what kind of arrangement can be made given their particular circumstances.

Is the IBF prepared to consider the case of people who borrowed from institutions that are not members of the IBF and test their income to determine whether they could obtain a loan at an average interest rate? The people are on the road to perdition.

It is a question of offering reasonable interest rates.

Mr. Pat Farrell

This is a competition issue and I cannot give a blanket——

I am not asking for that but for an assurance that the IBF will consider the issue.

Mr. Pat Farrell

When one is with a particular lender and decides to go to a mainstream lender or high-street lender and make his case, it will be assessed according to the normal method.

These people got money at the height of the boom for mortgages they could not sustain — that is the truth. They are outside the system because the HSE will not help them, even with mortgage interest. That is where the real problem lies. Notwithstanding all the fine points Mr. Farrell is making, he must still tackle that issue. The banking system must go further. Just as the Government bailed out the banks, Mr. Farrell's organisation will have to bail out the people to whom I refer. As a banking institution, it will have to stress test the people's incomes against possible mortgages. They will lose their homes if this does not occur.

Mr. Felix O’Regan

With regard to institutions such as Start Mortgages that are not members of the IBF, I know from working with MABS that it has been able, in many instances, to use the principles that have informed our protocols and announcements, such as that made today, to work with institutions such as Start Mortgages, albeit not in a formal, structured way. It has been able to use them for leverage or to exert pressure on behalf of its clients.

I welcome Mr. Pat Farrell and Mr. Felix O'Regan. Mr. Farrell is a man of impeccable character and is unquestionably an honest, decent man. There should be more people like him in the banking system.

We need to work together to try to solve the major problems that exist and ensure they do not arise again. How does one stop CEOs and chairmen of banks from giving big loans to themselves and their friends? A site valued at €100 million in recent years was sold for €500 million. Although it cannot be justified, this happened.

Society as a whole has glamorised money too much. Everybody wants to know those who have the trappings of money, have money or who are supposed to have money. If one drives a big car or lives in a big house, everybody says, "Who is your man?" or "Who is your woman?" There are charity workers in Ireland doing a great job in the common good and nobody wants to know who they are. These are the people who are really working on behalf of the people.

We should ask the banks to operate as small provincial banks used to operate, that is, according to rules and regulations. We need transparency in boardrooms and we do not need it said this is not in the interest of the people. It is in their interest.

Bank bosses have done us. They have sacrificed the majority of the Irish people in favour of the minority. Bank staff are normal, sensible people but their bosses, whoever they are, went bananas. It is completely wrong and irresponsible to give people money who cannot afford to pay it back. I know from experience the problems caused for people by giving them money. Everybody knows this now. It is unbelievable that the banks did what they did.

Mr. Farrell has a very difficult job if he is to restore confidence in the banking sector but he is the best man for the job. I hope sincerely, in the interest of the country, that the banks will listen to somebody such as him.

I cannot understand why people looking for mortgages do not deal with local brokers whom they know and who know them. They should go no further. The Irish Brokers Association was before the committee recently. It has been faultless in the way it has treated people over the years. Dealing with people one does not know is not in one's best interest.

I wish Mr. Farrell every success. I hope and I am sure he will be successful. He will genuinely try to solve the problem. We want a solution, not to return to where we were. Many people must take the blame and take a hit. Repetition is to no avail — let us solve the problem and work with people such as Mr. Pat Farrell.

It has nearly all been said but I will try to make an original point. I welcome the representatives, particularly Mr. Pat Farrell, who was once a very good colleague of some of us. When he was our colleague, his job was very tough but this probably prepared him eminently for the hot kitchen in which he finds himself today.

I listened closely to Mr. Farrell and his colleagues and liked much of what I heard. Naturally, members must test these comments and put our fingers into the wounds to determine how genuine the IBF is, especially in respect of the welcome document it released today.

I have great sympathy for the Irish Banking Federation. As with politicians, the banks are very much the whipping boys in respect of the circumstances in which people find themselves. Very often we hear of the anger that exists and it has become a cliché. I do not know how often the anger is properly directed or whether it is very profitable. Anger, as an emotion, is a waste unless it can be put into a policy. Anger, as the Taoiseach once said, is not a policy. Bankers have been getting more than their fair share of stick. This is largely because Mr. Farrell was not put centre stage earlier. It is refreshing to hear him and his colleagues accept that mistakes have been made. The initial response of senior bankers to the crisis was one of denial; they were almost like a rabbit caught in the headlights. We heard an infamous radio interview with a former senior banker where he explained that he had taken a cut from €1.8 million to €1.3 million. People wondered what planet were such people living on. It is refreshing to hear the delegation today, even though I missed the earlier part of the meeting.

Repossession is a key issue, and many speakers have touched on it. There is a certain amount of scepticism. I would be grateful if Mr. O'Regan furnished those hard figures being sought by Deputy Sherlock. The numbers will tell us all. We believe very little we read in the media any more, but what he is saying is very much at variance with the anecdotal evidence we hear every day on "Liveline" or that we read in the tabloids about homes being repossessed. There are also indications that people are being put into jail for debts. There are shades of Dickens's Little Dorrit to all this, where people who owed money were sent to jail. That is a joke. One can hardly pay one’s way out of debt if one is in prison.

These stories are out there and I heard one of them last week on the radio. It was about a young couple who had taken out a mortgage and were making repayments to the order of €1,500 per month. They said they could not afford the mortgage, so they offered the bank about €850 to €900 per month. The delegates have stated today that they will sit down with people and try to work out a mutually acceptable repayment, but what exactly is that? Would the request made by that young couple come under that general description?

I have the deepest sympathy for people who are under threat of losing their homes. However, we must remember that in the past, people got mortgages from banks to buy houses and sell them on two to three years later at huge profits. Some of those people are still out there and they borrowed for speculation. Caveat emptor. People must take responsibility as well. Everybody is talking about reckless lending, but we do not hear half enough about reckless borrowing. It is a mutual thing. I support speakers who referred to those genuine people who are in debt on their own homes and are under pressure to hold on. I am in favour of providing any way possible to stretch out that repayment or give people any break possible if they are genuine.

We are also trying to get the banks to loosen up on credit. I have mixed feelings about that. Sometimes a person does not get a loan and I wonder whether I would lend him money. If I would not lend him money, then I do not expect anybody else to lend him money either. There are irresponsible borrowers out there who not only cannot pay back their debts, but will not pay them back. I come from a small family business. We are four generations in the same business and we are four generations dealing with the same bank. It might have changed its name, but it is the same building on the same site. We would not be with it if we were not satisfied. There must be hundreds of thousands of people like us who have a good relationship with their local bank, who depended on it when times were tough, who were accommodated when they needed to expand and who were always treated in a professional way by management and staff.

It is time to go back to that small-time banking, where the manager had discretion and judgment. He knew his clients, their records, habits and behaviour patterns. He was far more able to judge whether somebody is good to pay back a debt or is risky. Bank managers tell me they can no longer make any decisions, and that everything must be referred to Dublin or to central locations to get the go-ahead, even for the most meagre loan.

The delegates here should do the best they can for the people with genuine mortgage difficulties, and for the people who run SMEs who might have overdraft problems at the moment. I am in the drapery business and suppliers are being told they cannot get cheques from individual retailers because the banks will not give them the overdraft facilities they once had. That is having a knock on effect, and the Christmas trade is coming when people normally make their money. It does not make any sense not to give people a few bob to keep them going to the day when they can pay the money back.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I thank the last two speakers for their kind remarks. I fear I am not worthy of them. I also feel that they are setting the bar so high that even at my height, I will not be able to measure up to it.

Regulatory initiatives have been brought forward to deal with loans to directors. They can now be fully disclosed, as can connected persons. A register is maintained where these can be inspected, and this has come about as a result of the issue mentioned by Deputy Kelly. The Deputy also asked if we had glamorised money. Given his occupation as an undertaker, the Deputy knows that no matter how much a person has, he cannot bring it with him. Perhaps we are too obsessed with money. That may be one of the lessons we have learned. We probably got carried away with ourselves during the Celtic tiger era.

I take the Deputy's point about charities. I am chairman of one charity and on the board of another; I think they have a vital role to play in society. In the corporate social responsibility activities, our members provide support for charities at local and national level. There is much work currently being done that will strengthen corporate governance at board level, and which will redefine the duties and obligations of the chairpersons of risk committees and audit committees. They will play their part in helping to create a sounder and more robust system.

The initiative we announced today about mortgages will help to deal with the type of situations raised by Senator O'Sullivan and Deputy Kelly. We will not satisfy everybody, but I would like to think we are making a genuine effort to deal with the issues, particularly on the home ownership front, but also in the SME sector. That sector is definitely more complex. It has taken more time to work through the issues, but we will stay engaged with the representative bodies, with the Department and all the other principle actors, to try to deal with the barriers that are there at the moment. If we do not have customers and if they do not continue to be economically active, then we will not exist as banks. It is not in our self-interest to starve the lifeblood out of SMEs and put people from their homes.

It was mentioned earlier that there is a dichotomy in the sense that people are fond of their local bank branch but not the bank itself. I am not sure if members have heard the phrase "love my branch, hate my bank". Everybody has a warm relationship at local level with their bank, but at institutional level people have a different view.

The problem is not at branch level, but at the very top in terms of strategy and the corporate way of doing things. They got it wrong. I feel sorry for people on the ground and at branch level. Many of them are very good people and they kept many businesses alive over the years. However, the strategy at the top was wrong and many of those involved in that are still around. That is the problem.

Mr. Pat Farrell

The model must change and the focus must move away from the short term. Our business model must be able to sustain itself and every stakeholder.

I thank Mr. Farrell, Ms O'Rourke and Mr. O'Regan for attending the meeting. I thank members for their co-operation.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.20 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Tuesday, 24 November 2009.
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