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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC REGULATORY AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 15 Dec 2009

Regulation of Banking Sector: Discussion with Governor of Central Bank.

Next on our agenda is our discussion with Professor Patrick Honohan, Governor of the Central Bank, on the regulation of the banking sector. On behalf of the committee, I welcome the Governor, Professor Patrick Honohan, Mr. Joe Doherty, head of the Central Bank's legal unit, and Mr. Martin Moloney, secretary to the regulatory authority.

Before beginning, I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that, while members of the committee have absolute privilege, it does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I ask Mr. Honohan to proceed with his presentation, after which I will call on members to begin the detailed discussion on the points raised

Professor Patrick Honohan

I wish to highlight a number of key elements that currently dominate regulatory policy development and new regulatory activity. In terms of magnitude, first on the agenda is the resolution of the banking crisis. The weakened financial position of the banks and the extensive Government guarantee provided to their depositors and other claimants clearly call for exceptional measures. There has been greatly intensified and what has been termed "intrusive" supervision of the operations of the main banks covered by the guarantee. This involves on-site presence on a daily basis by several regulatory staff in each of the institutions. They have been sitting in as observers on the banks' key decision making committees as well as conducting specific investigations and reviews.

The Government's crisis resolution strategy involves cleaning out a large block of troubled property-related loans from the banks' balance sheets and replacing them with NAMA bonds guaranteed by the Government. This will ease the banks' ability to mobilise funds for their ongoing operations. At the same time, since these loans are to be purchased by NAMA at "long-term economic values" not far above current market prices, the purchases will serve to crystallise losses on the banks' books in amounts likely to be in excess of the provisions already taken. This is likely to give rise to a need for measures to increase the banks' cushion of capital, which is necessary to absorb any future losses. To the extent that requisite capital cannot be sourced by the banks, the Government has indicated that it will be prepared to make the necessary investments. Quantifying the needs and the possibilities is an important task in which the regulatory staff are centrally involved.

Ensuring the safe and sound operation of financial firms, both those dealing with the domestic market and those primarily concerned with the export of financial services through what used to be called the IFSC, is an ongoing task. I stress that some of this safety and soundness work is routine in character, requiring precision, predictability and efficiency, for example, the authorisation of investment fund prospectuses. Many thousands of such funds are given a standardised vetting by our staff before they can be listed. In this way some degree of protection is provided to their investors.

Other parts of the safety and soundness work are more qualitative and judgmental. Regulation attempts to limit reckless or self-dealing behaviour by financial firms ex ante by vetting the persons in charge for their fitness and propriety and checking on compliance with clear rules of behaviour and ex post by means of penalties if it is discovered that violations have been committed. We are on the lookout for ways of improving both dimensions.

Beginning with our ex ante approach, thousands of financial firms are regulated entities. Experience worldwide shows how difficult it is for regulators to detect all fraudulent behaviour on the part of financial firm management. Often, important breakthroughs are made thanks to the revelations of whistleblowers. For example, Transparency International in a recent report highlighted this issue for our financial system. We are seeking the introduction of a statutory regime to encourage whistleblowers and to provide a specific process for them.

Regarding our ex post approach, enforcement of clear rules is crucial and I am determined that there will not be any reluctance on the part of the regulatory staff to pursue violations. There will be full co-operation with any criminal prosecutions. Where these do not arise, we will impose the appropriate administrative sanctions. For this reason, following discussions with Matthew Elderfield, the new head of financial supervision who will be starting in a few weeks, we have decided to make a senior appointment to take charge of enforcement. As members know, there have been high-profile allegations of wrongdoing in the context of the banking crisis. I do not want to talk about them in any detail, nor can I beyond saying that detailed investigations are in progress and the regulatory staff have contributed vigorously to it.

More generally, there will be an increase in staffing and the introduction of new internal structures in what is rapidly becoming a unitary central banking organisation without artificial and unnecessary internal barriers. With Matthew Elderfield, who brings his own considerable experience and skills to upgrading and restructuring regulation, we have been planning details of the new structures and approaches that will be adopted. As far as structures are concerned, in addition to the enforcement role, we have just announced the creation of new senior level positions with responsibility for markets supervision and policy and risk. This will restructure the way in which the work is organised so that it can be more effective.

Supervision will be calibrated to the risks posed by the different firms in the sector and will involve applying the existing rule book, strengthened as necessary to plug the holes revealed by the crisis. In particular, we will not be slow in implementing new stronger rules, being developed as we speak by international bodies such as the Basel Committee on Banking Supervision, BCBS.

Despite the extensive powers already available to the regulatory authorities, it would be useful and appropriate to have clarity on a number of additional points, which are being discussed with the Department of Finance with a view to their inclusion in the proposed legislation to restructure the Central Bank. One area relates to the requirement of confidentiality. As currently interpreted, this seems to go well beyond what is necessary or appropriate for the purpose of ensuring privacy of customers and commercial interests. Since European legislation also raises issues, it is complicated overall. As matters stand, the regulatory staff can appear passive and defensive when called to speak on specific issues in public.

A final aspect of safety and soundness to which I would like to refer is the admission of large and complex export-oriented financial firms into the market. I welcome the participation of foreign owned firms, those aiming to supply the domestic market and those that are export-oriented, as they provide competition and business opportunities, but the crisis has revealed the reputational risks to Ireland of having a failure in such an entity. This means that we must redouble our efforts to ensure that only sound institutions are allowed to enter and that they are comprehensively supervised to ensure that they continue to be sound. I will certainly not allow Ireland to become a soft option for firms or activities that are no longer welcome elsewhere. This means more supervisory staff with the necessary skill levels, who can be paid for by a levy on the supervised firms. We should move towards a 100% charge-back basis from the current 50% basis. Specific steps must be taken to ensure that there is no expectation that the State will take exceptional steps to rescue such entities in cases of need.

Consumer protection cannot and will not be ignored in the regulatory structure. Failures in this regard are not as spectacular as a solvency crisis, but can be as damaging to the affected consumers. There will be no downgrading of this aspect of the regulatory work. The statutory codes of conduct for mortgage and small to medium-sized enterprise, SME, lending are already making some impact on what are difficult current issues. The Law Reform Commission, LRC, also made valuable recommendations, but more will be required.

In this area, a central concern is that of achieving an improvement in the flow of credit to SMEs. To an extent, this would generally not be considered part of the remit of the financial regulator, conflicting as it can so easily with the requirement of safety and soundness, but wearing my wider hat as Governor, it is right that I should be alert to possible policy changes that might help. The financial restructuring of the banks will help set them on a course that not only gives them financial resources, but also the incentive to focus on new business. However, experience elsewhere shows how slow recovering banks are to get lending going smoothly again. We know that credit is not growing and that interest rate spreads have widened. At least some of this reflects the poor creditworthiness in present market conditions of many loan applicants.

The difficulty in improving the situation is that second-guessing banks on their credit appraisal decisions and their pricing of credit risk, which decides interest rates, is fraught with threats to the Exchequer, which will largely absorb any additional credit losses incurred by the banks. This is a challenge for which I have found no ideal solution. The banks could improve their loan appraisal technology. Many advances in this area in other countries have not been fully exploited by our banks, given their concentration in recent times on property-related lending. Perhaps the credit review system announced in the budget, with its comply or explain mechanism, if well implemented, could be the catalyst for such improvements. Banks might up their game in making loan appraisals if this is what is required to escape from the credit review system.

The failures of our banking system have rocked the economy and the public finances, with severe effects impacting almost all members of society. As the acute phase of crisis management and resolution draws to a close, it is time to start thinking how we might learn the lessons about our society that an understanding of the crisis can give us. Now that we have the prospect of the banks emerging in the coming months with a strong financial underpinning and renewed management, an imminent recurrence does not seem to be on the cards. We understand some of what occurred, but some of it is still difficult to understand. At the Central Bank we have taken important lessons on board and are making significant improvements in the way financial regulation and financial stability work is conducted. I expect that the Oireachtas will, in time, decide to authorise some form of inquiry to try to understand the deeper underlying causes of this crisis so that wider lessons can be learned for the future. In considering how best to do this, I suggest that new models of inquiry be explored. The crisis is not simply a question of discovering who did what and who knew what. Uncovering the deep roots of the crisis will require expertise and broad social scientific understanding more than merely forensic skills.

I thank Professor Honohan.

I welcome Mr. Honohan and his colleagues to the meeting and congratulate and offer my good wishes to the former on his appointment as the Governor of the Central Bank.

Mr. Honohan stated: "As the acute phase of crisis management and resolution draws to a close". He also stated: "Now that we have the prospect of the banks emerging in the coming months with a strong financial underpinning and renewed management, an imminent recurrence does not seem to be on the cards." I wish to expand on these points. Does Mr. Honohan believe NAMA will work or will it be the most expensive Christmas present ever given by the Government to the banks? Do the fundamentals underpinning the Government's NAMA business plan stand up to scrutiny, namely, the 30% discount on the loans? Property values continue to drop. How much extra capital will the banks require collectively and individually? Should Anglo Irish Bank be wound down in an orderly fashion, is it systemic in the economy and what is its future? Should the subordinated debt holders take a share of the taxpayer's risk, which is not currently the case?

Mr. Honohan has been quoted as saying that the matter of the salaries of CEOs and directors of banks might be outside the Government's guidelines. How does he justify this belief? The current management teams, particularly of Bank of Ireland and the AIB, are effectively bank insiders. Does he believe this situation will restore the credibility of the banking system?

Will NAMA get credit flowing again? Mr. Honohan referred in general terms to funds flowing. When the AIB recently appeared before the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service, its former CEO, Eugene Sheehy, stated that the bank might not go to the ECB in respect of the NAMA bonds to access funds, which would be at a relatively low cost, to allow for lending. Will funds flow to SMEs via the NAMA process?

Negative equity is becoming a significant issue. A substantial number of people with mortgages are in negative equity. Many of them are coming under increasing pressures. We heard today of one couple whose house was repossessed with little due regard in terms of proper discussions taking place. Does Professor Honohan believe there is a need to put this requirement on a legislative basis and that there needs to be a mini NAMA for house owners?

Professor Patrick Honohan

These are questions in respect of which I will try to lay out as clearly as possible the position as I see it. I believe that NAMA will work in its own terms. I have always seen this measure as having three prongs, the first of which is to stabilise the banks' assets so that they know the worth of the property loans. The assets are now bonds which are Government guaranteed, which makes everybody more confident about the banks, including those lending to them as they can take the Government bonds as security for loans. I believe this stabilises the position of the banks thus allowing them to raise funds so that the pressure they have experienced in this regard during the past year will be eased considerably and for the long haul. It also stops senior management having to worry about, as their first, second and third priorities, what they are going to do in respect of the property loans and the problems of the past. It separates the banks from those problems of the past and focuses them on what they need to do in terms of creating new business. I believe that is a mechanism that will also work.

As an aside, does Professor Honohan regard a 30% discount as still being relevant and realistic?

Professor Patrick Honohan

I will come to that.

While this is taking pressure off the banks it is putting enormous pressure on taxpayers, a point that should not be lost.

Professor Patrick Honohan

Absolutely. The Deputy will be aware that I was advocating at an earlier stage a scheme that was partly adopted, although on a smaller scale than I would have preferred.

The Honohan model was effectively based on not taking any form of contingency off the banks' balance sheets, thereby allowing bond holders and bank shareholders to take a share in NAMA. How does Professor Honohan reconcile this with the model put forward by the Government?

Professor Patrick Honohan

The scheme that was adopted included most of the important features, qualitatively, that I suggested. There are always different ways of playing this out. I would have gone further in magnitude in that I would have attached a greater proportion of risk-sharing to the whole plan. That would have been my personal preference.

What percentage would Professor Honohan have attached to the risk-sharing?

Professor Patrick Honohan

I would have taken it a lot further.

Professor Patrick Honohan

I am not sure I had a specific percentage in mind but I would have attached a lot more.

NAMA has yet to get off the ground and this is a relevant point to tease out in terms of Professor Honohan's thinking on the issue.

Professor Patrick Honohan

I am not trying to dodge giving an answer. I would like to think about it for a moment. On the indicative numbers announced on 16 September in regard to NAMA, including the 30% discount referred to by the Deputy, from memory approximately €2.7 billion represents the risk-sharing element.

Professor Patrick Honohan

I would have been happy to see that figure tripled.

Professor Honohan would have attached a 15% discount.

Professor Patrick Honohan

Yes.

Did Professor Honohan discuss this at the time with the Minister for Finance?

Professor Patrick Honohan

I do not recall discussing a specific number with him.

The Minister for Finance stated that Professor Honohan was in full agreement with what the Government was proposing at the time.

Professor Patrick Honohan

What the Minister said is very clear and written into the record. Those were not the words he used. The Deputy can read the record in that regard. Obviously, there are always differences and shading of opinions on this matter.

Was the Minister aware of Professor Honohan's particular view at the time?

Professor Patrick Honohan

The Minister would have been aware of my view that I would have preferred to see a higher amount of risk-sharing. That is absolutely correct. The Minister had his own reasons, which I will not rehearse here, some of which were technical, for believing he was correct.

What is Professor Honohan's view in regard to the 30% discount?

Professor Patrick Honohan

As I understand it — this is not specifically a responsibility of the Central Bank although I am privy to discussions around this issue — the financial envelope described by the Minister on 16 September is an indicative range and was and is subject to a detailed loan-by-loan evaluation. That is quite clear. That is not alone my understanding of matters, it has been stated clearly. Nobody should be surprised if there are some deviations from the figure concerned. I am sure there will be differences.

What does Professor Honohan expect the banks will require in terms of additional capital?

Professor Patrick Honohan

This is a function in respect of which our institution does have a role. I will not, therefore, as if I were a professor in Trinity College, throw out a number. On the last occasion I appeared before a committee, I was reluctant to pin down numbers although I did eventually give a range of numbers. I am in a slightly different position today.

We are making calculations and evaluations and are trying to pinpoint further details, evidence and indications. We will come up with a number, which is our responsibility. We do not yet have that number. We are still working within relatively wide ranges and have not made a decision. I do not want to give a number today and to then say it is has been revised. I am not in a position to even give a range.

Can Professor Honohan give us an indicative range?

Professor Patrick Honohan

No, I will not do that because it would be misleading.

Does Professor Honohan believe it will be a range which would require the banks to be nationalised?

Professor Patrick Honohan

On nationalisation, I understand that term to mean to some people, 50% ownership and to others, 100% ownership. If what is involved is 50%, that is quite possible.

Will it be 80% ownership?

Professor Patrick Honohan

Then we start to try finding my number by backward triangulation.

I think a career in politics beckons for the professor. I believe he will have a third phase to his career. To put some flesh on this, what Professor Honohan is effectively saying is that he expects the banks will need significantly more capital.

Professor Patrick Honohan

Yes.

Professor Honohan believe the number involved will be well in excess of 50% but will not reach the level of 100%.

Professor Patrick Honohan

There are a number of pieces to the jigsaw. We are speaking about the Government as being the provider of capital.

Does Professor Honohan believe the banks will be capable of raising private capital?

Professor Patrick Honohan

There are a number of things they can do. For example, they could choose to sell some assets, which would reduce the risk weighting of their assets and therefore free up their requirements for capital. There are a number of other kinds of juggling that could still take place. Only a few weeks ago market commentators were quite optimistically talking about private capital raising in the immediate future. Share prices have gone down again and they are not now talking about that. Things can change very quickly. I was recently quoted as saying that the banks will end up in a situation whereby people will be scrambling to buy shares in them.

I do not believe anybody is scrambling to do so at the moment but I believe this whole process, when and if it works out as planned, with the injections of capital, will result in the banks being in a position of strength which will ensure confidence in them.

Perhaps Professor Honohan will comment on the position of Anglo Irish Bank.

I apologise but we must suspend for a few minutes to attend a vote in the Dáil.

Sitting suspended at 4.50 p.m. and resumed at 5.10 p.m.

Is Professor Honohan of the view that Anglo Irish Bank should be wound down in an orderly fashion? There have been reports in the media to the effect that the level of recapitalisation the banks will require will be between €6 billion and €11 billion. What is Professor Honohan's view in that regard?

Professor Patrick Honohan

I will not be drawn on an amount in respect of recapitalisation, so we would probably be better leaving that matter alone.

Anglo Irish Bank is now a State-owned bank, with a new management team and some assets and liabilities. It is in these terms that we must consider the future of the bank. The new management team is developing a number of proposals. It will be the responsibility of the Government, as the shareholder, to see if these proposals are attractive from the point of view of taxpayers' interests and the national interest. It is not at all clear that a decision on winding down should be made in light of the particular stock of liabilities and bad assets, some of which will be transferred to NAMA. The decision with regard to the future of Anglo Irish Bank should be taken in the context of whether the business plan proposed by the management team is attractive.

In his role as Governor of the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland, is Professor Honohan of the view that Anglo Irish Bank is of systemic importance to the economy?

Professor Patrick Honohan

That is a good question, particularly as people are extremely concerned with regard to this matter. There are different ways in which people can view something as being systemically important. There is a technical aspect which relates to legislation, etc. Questions have been asked as to how a bank of which many people were not even aware could be viewed as systemically important. We must view this matter in the context of whether in ten years' time Ireland could survive without Anglo Irish Bank. The answer is that of course it could survive. In that sense, there is no problem. However, that is a far cry from saying that the bank was not systemically important at a particular point. It must be remembered that systemic importance varies from time to time. The functioning of Anglo Irish Bank was important to the systemic stability of the market at a certain point. This does not mean that decisions had to be taken in a particular way, but it was an issue.

Some €4 billion of taxpayers' money has been invested in Anglo Irish Bank.

Professor Patrick Honohan

Yes.

Not a red cent has been loaned by the bank since then. NAMA will take over €28 billion of loans from Anglo Irish Bank but it will still not be able to start lending. How can one justify putting money into such a bottomless pit? How can one judge this to be systemic?

Professor Patrick Honohan

Let us leave the systemic issue aside because the Deputy is raising specific questions about putting these moneys into the bank. They follow, as night follows day, from the guarantee provided. These are the sums provided to make good on the guarantee. Some of them may be recovered by the State. I note Deputy Sherlock seems to be expressing some confusion. Maybe I am not expressing myself very well.

I apologise for cutting across Deputy O'Donnell but how does Professor Honohan see these funds being recovered?

Professor Patrick Honohan

I said some may be recovered in time. Obviously, for a bank to continue in operation it needs positive amounts of capital. Sums would have to be invested above the zero point to keep it going. In due course, those sums could be recovered by the sale of that going concern bank. I am not expressing a view on how much.

Potentially €28 billion of taxpayers' money could be going into Anglo Irish Bank. Would better value for the taxpayer be achieved through an orderly wind down of the bank with the subordinated bondholders taking a share of the risk? One of the most severe budgets has been announced. Ordinary people want a sound banking system but they question the wisdom of funds being repeatedly put into a bank that effectively has not traded for nearly 15 months. Following on from this, how will NAMA bring about a flow of credit? AIB stated it would not use its NAMA bonds to leverage funds from the European Central Bank. Anyone looking in on this fails to see how this can be justified. The European Commission has stated the Government must make a decision as to whether there will be an orderly wind down of Anglo Irish Bank.

Professor Patrick Honohan

One thing that does need to be made clear is that it is not as if we could stop putting in this money. Any orderly wind down means putting in the money and not having a bank at the end of the day.

Does that mean the subordinated bondholders would take a share of the risk?

Professor Patrick Honohan

That raises the question of whether other providers of risk capital could participate in whatever happens in the future. That is always an issue. The subordinated bondholders have already renegotiated their bonds.

How many of them have gone into the lower tier 2 and how many from outside the guarantee?

Professor Patrick Honohan

I have not examined it in that much detail but taking some degree of loss, reducing their risk and the amount of claim they have. It is open to the management to propose---

If the Government decided on an orderly wind down of Anglo, does Professor Honohan believe the economy could deal with that?

Professor Patrick Honohan

I do not want to get involved with words like "orderly wind down" and so forth. There are a range of strategies for developing the banks. Some of them have it going on for ever in rapid growth, some have a wait-and-see approach. All of these options are in play. I would like to go back to the idea of whether in ten years' time Ireland could survive without Anglo Irish Bank. Yes, of course it could. As to whether it should, it might not be the best option for taxpayers' money. That discussion is now in play.

If there was to be an orderly wind down of Anglo tomorrow, could the economy survive without it?

Professor Patrick Honohan

In terms of banking business and supply of financial services to the economy, I would have to say "Yes, why not"?

So an orderly wind down——

Professor Patrick Honohan

I did not say an orderly wind down is the best option. The Deputy asked whether the economy could survive without the bank. There are several other banks. I would like to see more banks because they provide competition and a range of services. Without trying to encourage or endorse it, current management in the banks are making attractive sounds about the sorts of business they could provide for the economy.

There is one question which Professor Honohan did not address, namely, the salaries of chief executive officers in banks. Does he believe that with the extension of the bank guarantee for certain forms of capital, bonuses should not be paid for the duration of that scheme? How does he envisage funds will flow from NAMA? How does he view the comments by Eugene Sheehy about AIB going to the European Central Bank to repo its NAMA bonds not being top of the bank's agenda? What about the establishment of a mini-NAMA for those who may lose their homes?

Professor Patrick Honohan

On the salaries of CEOs, I was misrepresented by the Irish Independent because of a discussion I had with Brendan Keenan who was interviewing me about the whole issue of senior bank management. There could be some circumstances in which one could say a bank has this perfect person but it will cost €700,000. Exceptions may be made. I would rather that bankers’ pay was lower. I do not believe we need such wide distribution in general. However, we are caught in a world in which we need to get the system fixed. It is not all that easy to get the perfect person at the perfect time.

Does the Governor think the banks have the perfect people in terms of the insiders they have?

Professor Patrick Honohan

All I will say, without personalising the matter, is that the people they have got are competent and experienced bankers. I share the opinion of some that it would be better in a situation like this, if there were more outside and new people. It is not easy to make this happen. I would be prepared to exceed the limit under those circumstances. I believe €500,000 is plenty.

Does the Governor believe no bonuses should be paid during the guarantee scheme?

Professor Patrick Honohan

I am also against bonuses being based on short-term profit returns. It is a matter for regulation which we will be ramping up on that issue. I am not going to give a blanket statement such as the one the Deputy suggested on this.

I did not follow in detail what the outgoing chief executive of AIB said about NAMA. The NAMA bonds can be used in the market to acquire funds, not just with the European Central Bank. I would hope this will free the banks from dependence on public entities such as the European Central Bank and allow them to mobilise other resources in the market. I would therefore encourage that type of use of the NAMA bonds. Negative equity has acutely affected people who borrowed recently to buy a house at the top of the market.

It affects many people at the lower end as well, especially young couples.

Professor Patrick Honohan

It impacts on young couples, too, especially where they have lost their jobs.

That is correct, absolutely.

Not even in the peak 2004-05 period, as well.

Professor Patrick Honohan

This is a tragedy.

What should be done for those people?

Professor Patrick Honohan

I shall duck that question and I shall tell the Deputy why. The only way to deal with this if there are reliefs to be provided by the banks or the public purse for people, bearing in mind that a great many people have suffered from the downturn, is through fiscal policy. It all comes back to the public purse. Decisions have to be made about spending of the available tax resources. I wrote many months ago that these matters should be adjudicated in the context of welfare and the relief to be provided on that side of things. It can only be addressed in the broad context of how the Government is helping people who are suffering, from an holistic viewpoint. It is not a matter on which the Central Bank can adjudicate. If one says the banks should do it, that will come back to the Exchequer in any event, by a back door, as it were.

With due respect, if the Central Bank along with the Government had proper regulation in terms of the capital ratios the banks should have maintained during the Celtic tiger period, would the Governor not agree that many of them would not have facilitated 100% mortgages and we would not have growing negative equity at the moment because prices are falling? Light regulation has failed and the Governor speaks about new regulation. Will he advocate rules or principles based regulation in the banking system? What form will it take, in the event, and how long before it will be in operation?

Professor Patrick Honohan

The first line of defence is the banking system. Nobody can deny that there has been a serious failure of the banking regulatory system in Ireland. I do not personalise that but attribute it to failure of the system and we can look at the sociology of that.

If there had been proper regulation in terms of the Central Bank, the Financial Regulator and Government would it not be different, as with countries such as Spain and Canada where there was heavier regulation? Is it possible that in the event, we would not now have the crisis situation we have in banking? That is a reasonable question based on the premise that business operates in an area where banks are regulated — and they were not regulated sufficiently.

Professor Patrick Honohan

This is a correct assessment. The regulation should have been more proactive in preventing the rapid growth of lending. I would not have been on a bandwagon for 100% mortgages being the big issue, although I could be wrong about that. It is something one could zoom in on, however. The Spaniards did well out of it, and some of the techniques they used were attractive and well-designed. In general, they were more intrusive and suspicious. For example, they made sure their banks were not going to get caught up in the sub-prime debacle. Ours did not, and neither did the Canadians. It is self-evident, but let us come back to——

Will the Governor now introduce strong principles based regulation for the banking system?

Professor Patrick Honohan

Yes, it will be rules and principles.

Yes, the rules were there, but the principles went missing, with all due respect, prior to this.

Professor Patrick Honohan

Sometimes if one relies too much on rules, they can be easily evaded. One has to have rules and principles to back them up. It is a question of being able to point out where and when the rules are being circumvented.

Will the Governor move in that direction?

Professor Patrick Honohan

Yes, that is correct. In the immediate future this is not where the problem will be. There is a lack of credit now, and they could lend far more. We want to set in place a system whereby it will not happen the next time around.

I thank Professor Honohan. Do I call him Professor Honohan, Governor or what?

Professor Patrick Honohan

Patrick will do.

I am not an expert like my colleague here in banking.

I should not say that.

The first thing that comes to my mind is when the late Deputy Seamus Brennan met the Green Party to hammer out a programme for Government. He told them they were now playing in the big league and that this was all-Ireland stuff for which Fianna Fáil had medals.

I think of Professor Honohan, in one position, and I look at some of the bankers that have been around. He has stated, as has the media, that many of them are still in place. These guys have been around banking, big money has been involved and they have earned very big money. The Governor, if I may say so, has come from the groves of academe, so how does he match up to these guys? Does he really believe that in dealing with them he can match them?

Professor Patrick Honohan

I thank the Deputy for his statement of confidence. It is not a big problem for me. Although everybody says "Professor" and so forth, I have been in and out of university and research environments, but I have also worked in policy environments, in the World Bank on financial sector issues and so on. I have been in so many bank boardrooms and central bank governors' rooms all around the world in dozens of countries, and that is what I have researched as well, so this is all bread and butter to me.

I may not be a banking type and perhaps I do not play golf as well as the bankers, but I know what they do and how they think.

A former Governor of the Central Bank answered the question I put to him on a committee at one time as regards what they did by saying, "We look after the prudential side of banking". He added that ethics and compliance with rules were not really the responsibility of the Central Bank.

Professor Patrick Honohan

I recall watching that on television and thinking that was a bad answer.

Very good. A more recent Governor of the Central Bank said he had been telling the world for several years that 100% financing of houses was wrong, but they had not listened to him. What does Professor Honohan see as the new role of the Central Bank, generally? On a personal basis, does he have certain objectives he wants to see attained for the Central Bank, the banking system or whatever, in his role as Governor?

Professor Patrick Honohan

I have spoken recently about what I think went wrong in the way regulation was approached. It was a mistaken understanding of what was seen by the regulator as a new approach to regulation, namely: "We do not look at all the details, but merely the systems the banks have in place, the committee structures and the risk models and we check those things. We do not get into the nitty gritty areas and get our hands dirty." If one starts to trust the banks' systems too much and decide they will be all right because their committee structures and models are seen to be compliant with best practice, the risk is that they will go badly wrong, as they did. It is now a question of trusting less and verifying more. We need to have people going into the banks and understanding what they are really doing, not just looking at a carefully prepared presentation on how they make their decisions, but finding out what they are actually doing, questioning and robustly challenging.

I suspect also there was a feeling that the major banks have been around for a couple of hundred years and people thought nothing could go wrong. I believe we might all have fallen into that trap. That is one of the unresolved mysteries in trying to understand this crisis. How could the banks have got it so wrong? We can understand little bits of that but surely, in large part, they were very conservatively managed institutions over the years. That explains to some extent why people said the main banks did not need to push at it. Perhaps I am over-interpreting what happened but if one does not have that attitude and believes that any bank can be a risk, then we will make sure this risk is not realised.

In terms of my goals, the first is to get recapitalisation right and make sure the banks are put back on a solid footing and are something that can be saleable back into the private sector so that the Government can get as much of its money back as possible. The second is ensuring there are no new unexploded bombs anywhere and that we do not create a situation where unexploded bombs come into our systems. I suppose a natural place to be alert to is export-oriented companies or, if one likes, the IFSC companies. We definitely need to increase the intensity of our supervision of the largest institutions and must be careful about who we let in. I would say those are my two biggest priorities.

Personally, I am concerned about consumer protection. A lot has been done in that regard but perhaps enforcement could be intensified. A lot of the ground work has already been done.

Professor Honohan will certainly not allow Ireland to become a soft option for firms or activities that are no longer welcome elsewhere. The Companies (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill is going through the Oireachtas at present — I believe it will finish on Thursday — and will account for businesses using GAPP for securities and exchange commission, SEC, purposes rather than for the Irish system of accounting.

The international financial reporting standards, IFRS.

Yes, the IFRS. Is that the thin edge of the wedge? How does Professor Honohan view that Bill?

Professor Patrick Honohan

That is an interesting question. The Deputy finds me unprepared for it. I do not know and shall take a look at it.

Regarding reinsurance by major insurance companies, there have been fault lines in their operation in the IFSC and in the operation of funds. I do not know if Professor Honohan has read the chapter on the IFSC in Fintan O'Toole's book, in which, if I am correct, he mentioned a person who did something or perpetrated some scheme here which the regulator at the time did not see. However, as soon as that person arrived in the United States he was arrested for something that he did in Ireland. How will Professor Honohan deal with that type of major reinsurance and the people who are behind it? They will not be limited by the salary scale of €500,000 and there still will be significant bonuses for short-term gain in those outfits. Or will there? Will Professor Honohan have any input into the remuneration of people who manage those types of institutions?

Professor Patrick Honohan

To answer the last question first, in principle the regulator might have but I am sure it would be very easy for companies that are essentially offshore to evade this. I am sure they would say they are linked to some other jurisdiction from where persons would be paid. I am not sure we could make that effective.

I have spoken about this to Mr. Elderfield, the new head of financial supervision. He is very experienced in insurance, coming as he does from Bermuda, a big insurance centre. I have spoken to our own insurance department. Insurance is a big area. It is growing and there is a lot of interest concerning coming into Ireland at present. People are talking about it. The general view is that although it is a complicated area, it is manageable with sufficient staff. It is a question of quantity of skilled staff and being able to do as much checking as is needed. We do not visit the insurance companies as much as we would like to, but we will. We will hire more people and are in the process of doing that already. It will not cost the Government or the taxpayer anything because it is my intention to go to a 100% cost recovery basis. We are taking the steps to put this in place.

The IFSC is a huge operation and has brought considerable benefits and not only in terms of employment and tax revenue. However, we probably need to regulate it in a more costly way to those involved. We must match fire with fire to ensure we can prevent problems happening. I would still not rule out a situation where we might get a telephone call from New York or London telling us we have a problem. This is because the information pops up in all kinds of unusual places, as I mentioned with regard to whistleblowers. We would not necessarily be the first people to catch something here. Perhaps we would be the first and would tell them but we will not be in that situation unless we can, as we will, increase the staff to sufficient numbers.

It is vitally important when one thinks of the funds that are at the disposal or discretion of these managers.

Professor Patrick Honohan

Absolutely.

It is mind-blowing.

Professor Patrick Honohan

We have an international responsibility not to make this a weak link. We will not do so and in that way will maintain our reputation.

Regarding consumer protection, small and medium enterprises and consumer borrowings, and reading from Professor Honohan's script, we know credit is not growing and spreads have widened. That is very disconcerting for me and all members. Will he expand on these points and tell us how he will deal with them?

Professor Patrick Honohan

It is not unique to us but is happening all over Europe. The Governor of the Bank of England complained about the same sorts of experiences we have in this regard. I could give the Deputy the financial sector line which is that credit risks were underpriced. We know that because huge losses were made and so the risks must be priced in. There is some truth in that. In addition, there is a recession so it is not so easy for people to pay back and therefore a good credit analyst will say "No" to people to whom he would have said "Yes" before. There is some truth in that.

We are just going to have to accept some of this but I think we can do better in terms of better loan appraisal and more sophisticated decision making as to which SMEs are worth providing funding to. This is not something I have studied in sufficient detail yet but I feel the banks are probably not at the cutting edge in their ability to make SME loan appraisals. We should encourage them, for example, in the way announced by the Minister for Finance in the budget, which was a very interesting idea. I would probably never have come up with it but it might force the banks into raising their game in this regard.

In addition, I do not want to see the banks using the position of power they have now to overcharge. There have been issues with people who become delinquent on their loans and who immediately move to a more onerous interest schedule. Some of that is understandable and from the point of view of the operation of the market some penalties are justified. However, we ought to consider this very carefully to ensure it is not overdone. The Financial Regulator has advised the banks in this regard. It is a first step and I am unsure how far we can go on this. However, as soon as people are back on the standard repayment schedule and have moved away from the interest only relief payment, they should be brought back to the original type of interest structure such that they do not pay the interest penalty forever. That will not please the banks because it is very costly for them to raise funds, despite NAMA bonds and everything else. They are actually losing money on some of those transactions.

I have a final question although I realise others wish to contribute. Mr. Honohan seems to agree with Mr. Colm McCarthy that the Oireachtas should have some form of inquiry into what took place and how the crisis occurred. He has also suggested that new models must be explored. Presumably, this would involve inquiries. Has Mr. Honohan any suggestions in respect of the type of inquiry he believes would be correct or most appropriate in these circumstances?

Professor Patrick Honohan

I do not have a definitive idea. A hearing such as this one is fine, by and large. However, this issue is bigger and more complicated than one that can be accommodated by such a hearing as this where people present evidence and then go away. Also, the question would not be sufficiently answered by a judicial inquiry because one is not simply trying to find out what happened and the sequence of events. We should think in terms of getting experts, including experts in economics and social science and so on, and to blend them with politicians and arrive at a panel somewhat like the US congressional panels which consider particular issues on an ad hoc basis, such as the 11 September events. It may be possible to draw from the Royal Irish Academy to recommend the expertise, local and foreign. It is worth thinking this through during the coming months to get it right. There is no great rush about this. Of course we should learn from it to put right matters soon but many of the things we must put right are longer term in nature and it is more important to get them right than to get them quickly.

Does the governor believe such a process would be of benefit to the practitioners, including the Governor and bankers operating the business? Would there be a benefit if there were a full inquiry into how the crisis came about?

Professor Patrick Honohan

I believe there would be.

I wish Professor Honohan a fair wind and the very best of luck.

Professor Patrick Honohan

I thank the Deputy.

I thank the Governor for coming before the committee. I welcome Mr. Honohan's appointment as Governor of the Central Bank. It was a very good appointment and one of the things the Minister has done well. I have some comments and questions. I welcome the comments on rules based regulation. I accept it will not be entirely rules based but a move towards that form of regulation is preferable. I agree that in due course there should be an inquiry into what happened and how we can avoid it happening again. I do not believe that could be initiated by the Oireachtas. It would have to be initiated by the Government.

I refer to a matter raised by Deputy Ardagh and referred to by Mr. Honohan in his statement at the Irish financial services dinner. He seemed to appreciate more than most the extent to which Ireland faces a reputations crisis, that great reputational damage has been done to the country as a result of what has taken place in recent years and how that is impacting on us in terms of increased borrowing, trade and investment. I welcome the fact that Mr. Honohan has alluded to this. Deputy Ardagh referred to the Companies (Amendment) Bill in this regard which will be before the Dáil on Final Stage on Thursday. It has already been passed by the Seanad and that Bill does a good deal more than allow US companies to use their own accounting system for the next four years. It allows Ministers the power, by order, to recognise any other accounting systems and it contains other provisions designed to attract firms to this country. There is no pretence about this from Ministers. It is their intention to attract firms from Bermuda and the Cayman Islands to Ireland. Such firms are now leaving those areas because they have been designated as tax havens by the United States Administration. We are informed such companies are coming to Ireland to improve their reputation. I hope our reputation is not diminished as a consequence. As politicians, we rely on people and organisations such as Mr. Honohan, the Revenue, the IDA and others to give us their views on such legislation. If the Central Bank, the Revenue and the IDA say nothing, how can we be expected to say to the Government that reputational risks may arise? If Mr. Honohan were to take the time tomorrow, we would appreciate his view on that Bill and any potential reputational risks that may arise.

My first question relates to NAMA. Earlier, Deputy O'Donnell referred to the 30% haircut. That was based on the Minister's view, expressed at the time, that on the basis of rental yields and other items, the price of property had bottomed out. Since then the price of residential property has continued to fall by 1% per month. In fact, the fall in property prices has accelerated. Is Mr. Honohan of the view that the Minister's calculations that suggested NAMA could break even at a 1% increase every year for the next ten years are now entirely wrong and do not stand up to scrutiny?

I refer to the most important question. Professor Honohan referred to the possibility of new, unexploded bombs and to a large block of troubled property related loans from the banks' balance sheets that would be replaced by NAMA bonds. I believe there are new, unexploded bombs in the banks. These include development loans of less than €5 million and small business loan books. We are aware that many of these are not performing. They include the mortgage books. The old books have been securitised so only new books of that type exist and they will not be performing either, especially if interest rates increase next year. They include personal loans as well. Is it not the case that if the Government sticks to its current policy, there will be a NAMA 2, NAMA 3, NAMA 4 and NAMA 5? In reality, all the banks' books are as toxic as the developer loans were. Therefore, are we not liable to find ourselves in a situation such as Iceland whereby it was forced to take over the banks and break them up into good and bad banks, as has been previously suggested? I note that of the three banks nationalised in Iceland, two have been re-privatised already. We were looking at Iceland one year ago and saying to ourselves that we had better not end up the way it did. However, now I am beginning to wonder if it would have been better to follow their course of action. Does Mr. Honohan agree that those unexploded bombs could be among the rest of the loan books? How are they performing? If it is the case that they turn out to be as bad as the assets that have been transferred to NAMA, should we decide on NAMA 2, NAMA 3 and so on or is it time to change direction entirely?

Professor Patrick Honohan

I thank the Deputy for the questions. Residential prices are still falling. This is true enough in terms of the indices used. However, it is fair to say the estimates for property prices that were built into the Minister's calculations in mid-September were a good deal more realistic than the index of prices normally published. It is considered to be an inadequate index that does not show the full decline in residential property prices that has occurred.

The suggestion was a decline of 49%.

Professor Patrick Honohan

The Minister announced a deep discount along those lines. I cannot remember off hand whether it was 45% or 50% but——

It will be a great deal more than that. Is that correct?

Professor Patrick Honohan

The index of prices which, according to Deputy Varadkar, is falling by 1% has not gone anyway. It has suggested only 30%. I read articles in the newspapers written by property experts. They seem to be mixed on whether, for example, commercial property has bottomed out. Some people say it has, others say it has not. I am not going to set myself up as an expert on this. An honest attempt is being made by those involved in and who are experts on NAMA to put a market price on it. That is fair enough and I do not second guess it.

On the question of the uplift of 1% per annum, or whatever way one might calculate it, it is not a certainty. There is a considerable range of uncertainty about where prices will end up in ten years' time, which is why it would be very difficult to say that the uplift which is proposed could not be achieved. It is within the range of possibilities.

Anyone would be comfortable enough to sign up to a reasonable proposition, such as the suggestion that prices might improve by 1% per year for ten years, but it depends on where the bottom point is.

Professor Patrick Honohan

Yes.

If the bottom point is -70% or -60%, and not -47%, it is a totally different calculation.

Professor Patrick Honohan

Although they are using long-term economic value in the calculations and not the current market value, one is in territory which could not be said to be outside the range. It will be very difficult to put a number on these things. It comes back to the point I made to Deputy O'Donnell, namely, that the risk sharing element could deal with that to some extent, because there is risk. Nobody has said otherwise. I am not sure I have much to add on that point.

On the question of the rest of the loan books of the banks, there is no doubt there are considerable loan losses embedded in them. Provisions have been made for that and one thing which is an important part of the calculations we are in the process of making about additional capital requirements relates to an evaluation of what the scale of the likely losses is. If there is a bad loan, it is 100% bad. On average, the loan losses which should be projected are considerably less than the loan losses for the NAMA book.

Professor Honohan must have a ballpark figure.

Professor Patrick Honohan

I do, but I am not going to state it because I would have to change it.

Professor Honohan has major questions on the valuation of the assets, because that is what will determine the amount of money involved. He has concerns about that area.

Professor Patrick Honohan

Everybody, including the banks, is working hard to try to figure out how to deal with evaluating what is an unusual situation. When have we had such a large decline in GDP and a rapid rise in unemployment? Calculating these things is not straightforward. Provisions have been taken against these loans and more will be taken. It is not as large as the NAMA numbers. It is a question of getting the numbers right so we put in enough money and do not have to put in more.

When one is calculating how much will be required for recapitalisation, it will not just relate to the book which has been taken over by NAMA.

Professor Patrick Honohan

No.

It will relate to the entire amount.

Professor Patrick Honohan

No, that will set them on a secure basis. That is why I said that when people are confident, they will want to buy.

It will be quite a lot.

Professor Patrick Honohan

Yes it will be quite a lot. I will go that far.

Will we see two digits rather than one?

I welcome Professor Honohan to the committee and congratulate him on his appointment. I have witnessed a perceptible shift today in the language to which we have become accustomed from officials when dealing with the financial crisis, something which must be acknowledged. I do not wish to denigrate other officials in any way for the language they use, but we are now in an era where we want things to be explained to us by officials such as Professor Honohan in a manner which everybody can understand and which is frank. That is important for the future.

I appreciate the fact that Professor Honohan is answering these questions honestly and openly. It is refreshing. I hope, when we look forward to the quarterly Central Bank reports, that if there are whisperings of bad omens on the wind they are not buried imperceptibly in language in the reports and are backed up by strong language from the Governor of the Central Bank, if that is a necessary course of action.

I wish to return to the issue of Anglo Irish Bank. I have to ask a question on behalf the people of Cork East, who I represent. Like many people throughout the country, they are asking why, in the name of God, are we bailing out Anglo Irish Bank and nationalising it? I do not think that question was answered sufficiently. I appreciate that the decision is made and that Professor Honohan is coming from an academic background — he has stated that — but is now a banker. As he is a banker I would like an honest view on whether we should cast it adrift. If the capitalist model into which we have bought in this country is to be followed logically, whatever about AIB and Bank of Ireland, there is a school of thought which suggests Anglo Irish Bank should be let off. The €4 billion and the €4 billion eile it is looking for will cast a noose around the necks of Irish people which we will have to wear for a long time.

My second questions relates to the issue of prudential rules. In his opening statement, Professor Honohan said, "There has been greatly intensified and what has been termed "intrusive" supervision of the operations of the main banks covered by the guarantee". If I read this sentence one way, it could suggest "intrusive" was negative, but if read another way it could be positive. It is negative in that the existing staff in the banks which are covered by the guarantee are not too happy about the intrusive nature of the new staffing arrangements with Professor Honohan's people. Is that causing friction? If so, why is it causing friction? Will it need to continue for a considerable period of time until this issue is worked out? How long will the situation continue for?

The new prudential rules which will come into force will be largely determined by Brussels and the European Union. The fear I have is that the Irish Government, as is often the case, will follow the City of London or the Government of the United Kingdom in terms of prudential rules regarding financial services. If we are to be realistic about overhauling prudential rules in the future, and if there is a majority view which is contrary to the position of the United Kingdom, we should take a very responsible position. I would like to hear Professor Honohan's views on the matter.

On the macro situation, last night a Minister said on television that at least we are not Greece and that we should look at how bad things are there, which was an extraordinary statement. If we are now being compared with Greece, we know things are really bad. Is there a role for the Governor of the Central Bank vis-à-vis the European Central Bank, in terms of influencing monetary policy in particular, and fiscal policy? I am not necessarily espousing that but I want to get a view on the theory that a devaluation of the currency would sort out some of our problems. I am looking for a macro view but I would also like to hear Professor Honohan’s personal opinion on that.

On the issue of remuneration, will the staff of the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority be taking a pay cut? I refer Mr. Honohan to the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (No. 2) Bill 2009 being debated in the House as we speak. The Schedule to that Bill clearly shows that the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland are bodies to which the definition of "public service body" does not apply. Those bodies were excluded from the Schedule to the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act and presumably they were subjected to the levies imposed as a result of the enactment of that legislation. My question is whether Mr. Honohan will be taking a hair cut — that term has been used — and, if not, why not? In Mr. Honohan's opinion, why has the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland been included in the Schedule to the No. 2 Bill when it was not previously? Was the Minister for Finance lobbied in regard to that issue?

I raise this issue because the previous regulator, and this must be restated, got out of Dodge with approximately €600,000 in his back pocket. A constituent of mine would ask me these questions and how he managed to do that. If public sector workers, for instance, who are on €30,000 a year are taking a haircut of €1,500 as per the legislation proposed today, why are bodies like the regulatory body not doing the same?

Professor Patrick Honohan

The Deputy asked five questions. May I start with the last one because it is very specific? Of the current items of legislation, I am aware of this one.

Regarding the specifics, on my recommendation the board of the Central Bank decided yesterday in principle to apply the cuts to the staff of the Central Bank. I communicated my decision to recommend that to the board to the staff immediately after the Minister sat down. That is the position on that. I would like to have a long discussion and negotiation with the staff but this is an emergency situation and that is not the way it is. They are included in the cut.

I am not sure why the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority is excluded from the Schedule to the current Bill. There were some discussions between myself and Department of Finance officials clarifying what I intended to do. I believe it was some misunderstanding about how this was going to take effect. It was understood that the cut would apply but this ended up in the Schedule to the Bill as brought in as being a case of, "He is going to apply it so it does not apply". In any event, I am sure the Deputy will find that an amendment will be introduced to the Bill to fix that.

I would like to take the opportunity, since the Deputy mentioned his predecessor, to make it clear that Matthew Elderfield has willingly agreed to take a cut, although I do not know whether he had an alternative, even though he has not yet arrived. In the contract that we agreed with him he will be taking a cut of 15%.

I want to confirm for the record that in terms of the newspaper reports his salary will be €400,000. He is getting an amount of €75,000 to cover the way in costs. He has been spending some time working on it. He was here for most of two weeks and after three years, if he meets specific goals set by me, he will be getting a bonus of €100,000. Those are the facts.

He also is very keen to point out, and it is relevant, that after the 15% cut his take home pay will be reduced, relative to what he is currently earning as chief executive of the Bermuda Monetary Authority, by 48.6%. He is taking a considerable reduction, therefore. I know he is still getting a considerable package but he would like to make it clear that he is still——

What about a reduction in his gross pay?

Professor Patrick Honohan

His tax is very little. According to the table in front of me his total pay, which is in US dollars, is $713,687.

I have a number of questions and I ask for some leeway from the Chair.

That is not a problem.

Is any man or woman worth that amount of money? Professor Honohan will talk about the relativity of taking the pay cut vis-à-vis——

Professor Patrick Honohan

No, but what I will tell the Deputy is that he would not have come for less.

He would not have come for less.

Professor Patrick Honohan

Yes.

How is this country still in a scenario where we are paying that kind of money to people to overhaul a regulatory framework given that the European Union regulatory framework will be overhauled and there will be a large buy-in by the Irish State into that process anyway? It could be done for a considerably reduced cost than the princely sum of €400,000 plus the bonus if he reaches a target. We need to move away from the culture of spending that kind of money on public officials when there are other people in the State who are taking savage cuts. It does not make sense to ordinary people. Ordinary people will look at that and say it is obscene.

Professor Patrick Honohan

The only thing that matters in terms of an outsider coming here to fix a problem is are we going to get the job done and is this the best and most cost effective way to get it done. That has to be the main priority and it is only on that basis that I see this. It is a purely pragmatic approach that we need to get this job done and this kind of skill is in very high demand throughout the world right now.

I will park that issue and respectfully agree to disagree with Mr. Honohan.

Professor Patrick Honohan

There are a few other points to make. Regarding the noose around the neck, which is about Anglo Irish Bank, the huge sums being injected fall logically from the initial guarantee. We are talking about bits and pieces at the edges. Deputy O'Donnell spoke about the subordinated debt holders. We are talking about €2.5 billion in that regard. The big sums — and they too are guaranteed until the end of September 2010 — follow completely from the guarantee. There is no walking away from those. They are guaranteed. It is not a question of saying we will float it away on the wind, so to speak. We still have to pay those major costs. That is the message that has to go back.

The guarantee is not forever, it is legislative.

Professor Patrick Honohan

That is absolutely true. However, if one says "That's it, no more guarantee after 30 September", the money will flow out on 29 September. So one will still have to pay it and there is no getting away from that.

So it was not a good idea in the first place?

Professor Patrick Honohan

That is a different aspect.

Or at least to have a guarantee as extensive as it was.

Professor Patrick Honohan

That is the problem with that scenario.

In a pre-guarantee scenario---

Professor Patrick Honohan

That is a long time ago.

In a pre-guarantee scenario there is a school of thought that says that Anglo Irish Bank is a failed entity and that one should have cast it adrift. While there would have been a tremor, the systemic effects for the economy as a whole would arguably not have been too high on the Richter scale.

Professor Patrick Honohan

I have followed this a lot. The guarantee at that stage is a very hard call. It is difficult to rewrite history and say what would have happened if a different decision had been taken around a guarantee. I have said that there had to be an extensive guarantee. I would have had more consultation beforehand and I would have recognised, in going ahead with that guarantee, that Anglo Irish Bank had serious solvency problems. Those are the three dimensions by which I would see that guarantee. It is not an easy one. There has been a lot of internal debate, but I have not found anybody outside the country, within the circles I move in, to say that it is quite clear that some other decision should have been taken. It is a very hard call, but it is in the past.

I appreciate that and I suppose we are trying to look to the future. With that in mind, does Professor Honohan feel he has perfect knowledge as to what is going on within Anglo Irish Bank?

Professor Patrick Honohan

We do have a good knowledge now about what is going on in Anglo Irish Bank. There is no problem now. There is very good communication with the new management and our regulators. The Department of Finance officials are knowledgeable, as are the NAMA people. There is not a problem there.

My other question was about Greece.

Professor Patrick Honohan

Yes, but I am not sure what the Deputy is getting at. I really do not want to be drawn into this, and I am subject to statutory restrictions in talking about the ECB and so on. There is nothing to be gained from talking about that. In terms of our domestic situation, and I cannot resist being a bit provocative, part of the consequences of the strategy that is being adopted in the budget is the achievement of what might be called an internal devaluation. I do not think this is bad or sinister, I think it is possibly good and necessary. In a speech at the ESRI, I pointed out that for Ireland there has been a fall in prices. Price stability in Europe has been achieved, but in Ireland prices have fallen and there needs to be an adjustment. It is very damaging to the working man, as he used to be called, and employment will be damaged unless there is a response in wages. That is crucially important. I would be failing in my responsibility as a central banker not to bring that agenda to the fore. It is not public sector versus private sector, but the need to adjust wage levels downwards.

If we buy into that scenario — and arguably the main political parties have bought into that agenda — the question that is still outstanding for people of my generation, who have taken on massive amounts of debt, is that the debt is not being restructured in any great shape or fashion, but wages are coming down significantly. There is a real problem there.

Professor Patrick Honohan

There is a problem.

We are trying to get to the nub of the situation. If one has a statutory pension scheme then arguably one will provide a greater degree of security for people. If there is a code of conduct, however, there is nothing to suggest at this stage that the banks will adhere to any kind of code.

Professor Patrick Honohan

I will be corrected by my colleagues, but there is a statutory element in this. The code of conduct for mortgages is compulsory.

It concerns the operation of the mortgage moratorium where somebody finds himself or herself in trouble.

Professor Patrick Honohan

Yes, that is statutory, but it may not go as far as one would like. As the Deputy knows, it is going from six to 12 months, subject to a consultation procedure, but I expect that to happen. The question is, however, whether there is to be more. It is not necessarily good to go from 12 months to 18 or 24 because one can get into a situation where people lose track of repayments. Part of the code requires the lenders to sit down and work things out with the debtor, but one does not want a situation where the debtor gets too much into arrears and loses track of repayments. That situation would be worse. One is possibly looking at whether some sort of relief could be made available to the borrower. I may be jumping ahead, but that is the fiscal issue.

I am not convinced that mortgage interest relief is necessarily the only way to go. That will provide some relief, but there will be a certain number of people who cannot repay mortgages. For instance, when this Bill is enacted, which it invariably will be, a certain percentage of the population earning €40,000 or less, will no longer be able to pay their mortgages, in spite of the fact that prices are falling in the economy. That will have a knock-on effect. They remain to be convinced that the banking structure, as it currently exists, will adequately give them a break if they find themselves in difficulty and start missing payments, which they invariably will after this on Thursday. I appreciate that Professor Honohan is not necessarily in a position to comment on the legislation that is going ahead, but from a layman's point of view, and anecdotal evidence of those who are now in real financial difficulty, there is a perception that the banks are getting off lightly in terms of putting together something that would give people a break on their mortgages.

Professor Patrick Honohan

When people say "The banks are getting away with it", one must look behind the institution and ask who exactly do we mean by "the banks". This is an approximation, but ultimately in the present environment, "the banks" is the Government. If one says that the banks should give relief, that means the Government will have to put in more money. That is the dynamic, as I see it. That is not 100% true, but we are in that territory.

If we increase capitalisation, that scenario will prove to be the case.

Professor Patrick Honohan

That is what I mean.

Professor Honohan referred to the internal devaluation and, to a certain extent, the political consensus has bought into that. Is there not an inherent flaw in that, however, because in any normal devaluation everything is devalued, including wealth and bank deposits. What we have in Ireland is a devaluation of wages, but not a devaluation of capital wealth. He also mentioned that if the guarantee were to be withdrawn, there would be a flight of capital the day before, and I think that is probably the case. However, would it not be possible to have a very different sort of guarantee — one that would guarantee deposits, for example, but would not guarantee subordinated debt? I do not know about the bits in between.

Professor Patrick Honohan

We do not have such a guarantee, that is the problem.

No, but we could have such a guarantee.

Professor Patrick Honohan

Yes.

It is a matter for the Houses of the Oireachtas to determine that.

Professor Patrick Honohan

Yes, but anyone left out who has something falling due before September would then say "I'd better get out before this alternative comes in".

It is the same sort or argument, so one could do it that night.

Professor Patrick Honohan

I do not think one could give people that much of a surprise. They will anticipate the behaviour.

The deposits could fly.

Professor Patrick Honohan

Any kind of short-term bond holders. One will find that most of the money that is now loaned to banks is short term.

I thank Professor Honohan, Mr. Moloney and Mr. Doherty for attending the joint committee. The meeting is adjourned until 19 January 2010. We will have weekly meetings after that for a couple of weeks.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.30 p.m. until Tuesday, 19 January 2010.
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