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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC REGULATORY AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 1 Sep 2010

Electricity Charges: Discussion with Commission for Energy Regulation

I welcome the Commission for Energy Regulation to discuss the proposed increase to the electricity supply charges — the public service obligation levy — from October next. We will discuss the impact of the price rise on householders, the number of gas and electricity customers being disconnected due to inability to pay and the protocols in place to protect the vulnerable.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Michael Tutty, chairperson of the commission, Mr. Dermot Nolan, commissioner, Mr. Garrett Blaney, commissioner, and Ms Cathy Mannion, director of electricity networks. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, you are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence you are to give this committee. If you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that Members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The meeting will be webcast live, therefore it can be seen worldwide on the Internet. I ask Mr. Tutty to proceed with the presentation.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

The committee asked us to make a five-minute presentation and I have a very short presentation. We circulated a longer briefing note as well, which, I presume, the members have.

There is a great deal of competition in the electricity market. Some 680,000 users switched supplier between last year and mid 2010, and this is one of the highest levels of customer switching in Europe.

Last year we issued a roadmap on deregulation of prices. We have decided that the business and industrial sector is fully competitive at this stage and that we will no longer be regulating ESB prices from 1 October. On the domestic side, once ESB gets down to 60% of the market with a few other conditions, we will deregulate it too, and that is likely to happen sometime in the first half of next year. At present, we are only regulating ESB domestic prices from October next. We will still be monitoring the business and industrial end, but not setting the prices.

People seem to think that there is no downward movement in electricity prices and all that happens is that prices keep going up, but that is not what has been happening in recent years. In November 2007, there was a reduction of 5.4%. There was an increase in August 2008 because the price of fossil fuels on world markets reached record levels, and subsequently there were two reductions in 2009.

For this coming year, our presentation shows an increase of approximately 5%. We issued a press release this morning with the precise figures, which turn out to be a 4.9% price increase from 1 October next. ESB has issued its press release on that too.

This year the overall generation costs, which are the biggest element of the electricity bill, have gone up somewhat because fossil fuel prices are rising at present. We have had a significant reduction in network costs, which are the costs that are under our control. We carried out a full review of the ESB Networks and EirGrid costs and we have issued a consultation document with proposals for significant price reductions, which are being fed into the tariffs for next year. Between the two of those, the network reductions have been offset by increased generation costs. The only thing that is pushing up prices this year is the PSO levy, which was at zero in recent years. It is not that it is a new levy; it has been there since 2002. It was at a significant level up to 2006 but it has been zero since then. It has gone up largely due to lower market prices because the subsidy varies to a large extent with the price of fossil fuels and I will come back to that. Overall, therefore, the price for domestic customers over the coming year will increase by 4.9%

The levy was introduced in 2002 and it is designed to support certain peat, gas and renewable generation plants, as determined and mandated by Government and approved by the European Commission under state aid laws. The underlying policy objective is security of supply, including the use of indigenous fuels such as peat, and the promotion of renewable energy. The levy fluctuates to a significant extent with the cost of gas and other fossil fuels because effectively it is there to provide for the difference between the cost of these generators and the actual market cost. The higher the market cost is, the lower the levy has to be. Because fossil fuel prices were very high in recent years, no levy was needed. Last year fossil fuel prices were not as low. They were starting to rise but special factors kept the levy down last year and, to some extent, special factors this year have increased the levy to its present level. However, it is not a new levy. It is there to meet the statutory requirements, as contracts have been entered into by Government with renewable energy, peat and some gas stations.

The other issue the committee wanted to discuss is disconnections. We in the CER require all electricity and gas suppliers to put in place a code of practice on disconnection. Included in that code are the following: disconnection is to be used as a last resort; suppliers must inform customers in advance of disconnection, including information on the costs; suppliers are required to work with third parties acting on behalf of customers such as MABS and the Society of St. Vincent de Paul; they are required to enter into payment plans where appropriate; and they may offer prepayment meters or budget controllers. Disconnection is, therefore, a last resort. We have required further protection for two particular categories. The elderly cannot be disconnected for non-payment during the winter months and customers dependent on electrically powered life support equipment cannot be disconnected at any time for non-payment of bills. To get this protection, customers need to register their requirements with the supplier in order that the supplier knows they are in these categories.

I also have information, which is in the briefing note, on the total number of disconnections in recent times. It shows an increase in recent months. Some figures that appeared in the newspapers refer to the number of times ESB Networks is asked by a supplier to carry out a disconnection. In practice, only about half of those disconnections take place because when ESB Networks staff get there, there are various things they have to do and I will come to that on the next slide. However, the number of disconnections is only about half the number called for by suppliers. We have interesting figures for the number of reconnections, which is much less than the number of disconnections, and this suggests that while quite a number of premises are disconnected, a reconnection is not sought, most likely because the premises are vacant or have been closed down. We are not aware of people who are still in premises without electricity. When ESB Networks is called, its staff disconnect only about half the time. They are required to ring the supplier and confirm it still wants to disconnect the premises. Quite often in those cases payment is made or a deal is worked out with the resident and he or she is not cut off. In addition, if nobody is there, he or she cannot be cut off or he or she may not be cut off for compassionate reasons. A great deal happens, therefore, between the time the ESB is asked to cut somebody off and disconnection.

With regard to figures for gas, there has not been a trend of increases in disconnections. It seems to be going down rather than up. With regard to electricity, there were fewer disconnections last year than in the previous two years. It looks as if it is up somewhat this year but it is not a trend of just increases all the time. With regard to the cost of disconnections, ESB Networks has agreed a charge with us to de-energise, which is not a nice word, but there is a difference, technically, between de-energising and disconnecting. De-energising is just cutting off the supply but leaving it ready to be reconnected or re-energised as opposed to taking out the meter and other equipment. Technically, that is the correct word but we have tried to use "disconnection" as far as possible while realising that the difference is immaterial. There is a cost of €86, excluding VAT, for disconnecting electricity and €61.74 for gas. These costs are agreed with us as being cost reflective and ESB Networks imposes this charge on the supplier when it is asked by him or her to disconnect. We are ready to answer questions.

I thank Mr. Tutty.

I thank the Chairman for agreeing to my request, which I sent in late August, for this special emergency meeting to discuss an issue that has appalled the vast majority of people in the country. We have a duty, as public representatives, first, to interrogate and investigate the proposed price increases and, second, which is as important, to express the widespread and deeply held anger around the country not only on behalf of householders but also on behalf of many business people, particularly small business people, who cannot understand how an organ of the State, the CER, and the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, have conspired to impose a further increase in domestic and commercial ESB charges when we are living through the worst recession in living memory. It is important that we, as public representatives, do so because many of my constituents want to say that to Mr. Tutty today.

I will refer to just a few of the many points discussed. The PSO obligation, which has been explained by Mr. Tutty today and on previous occasions, effectively means that if market prices for energy are low, the price the consumer must pay will increase. Therefore, the consumer is in a catch 22 position with this levy. I cannot understand why the CER and the Minister cannot try to discover a way of postponing the levy because it does not make sense that when market prices are down, the people must pay more. Will Mr. Tutty deal with and explain this in more detail?

There is significant information in the briefing documents and on the CER website, including a newsletter issued in August. I would like to pursue the issue of the proposed increases in the transmission charges for customers. The impression put across today by Mr. Tutty is that transmission and distribution costs will balance out each other, but the newsletter states that the CER has allowed for a 5% increase in transmission charges per annum for the next five years. Will Mr. Tutty confirm whether that is the case, explain the justification for the increase and explain why he did not mention it in his presentation?

With regard to the fees attached to connection and disconnection, there was significant publicity a couple of weeks ago when a gentleman from the country came to Dublin and chained himself up outside the ESB offices because of the personal difficulties he had dealing with the ESB. He made the point that when he was visited by an ESB technician he was told that even though the power was not being cut off on that day, a sum of €99 would be added to his bill for that visit. Will the CER justify these charges? Why is there a need for a charge? Surely, the suppliers, generators and distributors could absorb these costs. The people who make these visits work in these organisations, but the poor unfortunate householder whose house they visit is asked to pay another €100 for the privilege of the visit. The charge has not been justified sufficiently here and I would like to hear it justified in more detail.

On the issue of meter readings, many people in Wicklow and throughout the country are sent estimated bills rather than meter read bills. What is the CER view on this practice? The estimated bills are often quite high and in excess of the real figure and people have these inflated bills to pay. The network suppliers do not seem to be required to supply a meter reading on a regular basis. What proposals has the CER in that regard or does it feel this issue is a problem?

I am very concerned about vulnerable people and it was on their account that I requested this meeting. We have many vulnerable people — people who have lost their jobs, people whose wages have been cut and people on reduced social welfare. These people are up the wall when they receive their bills and cannot manage to pay them. It seems from what has been said today that unless a person is on a life support machine or elderly, he or she is not a vulnerable person as far as the CER is concerned. The CER has only put mechanisms in place for those two groups. I welcome the provision that elderly people will not be disconnected throughout the winter months, but there are many other vulnerable people in the country who would suffer great distress if their electricity was cut off. I think in particular of parents with small children. Is there any way the CER can advance the criteria considered with regard to disconnection and protect these people more generously than is the case currently?

We received an e-mail from an individual citizen who made a number of thought provoking points. One of the points he made concerned the difference between the customer charter issued by the suppliers and the contract which is issued to the customer. Apparently, the CER has said that the contract supersedes the charter in all cases. If that is the case, the customer charter is not worth the paper it is written on. Perhaps the gentleman is wrong or I have not understood it correctly, but will the CER address that issue?

The CER may think this is an unfair question, but it is paid out of public moneys. Many people in the country have suffered huge reductions in their incomes. I am not asking Mr. Tutty his personal remuneration, but what is the global annual remuneration figure for the three commissioners, all of whom are here today? What is their annual remuneration? We need to know that figure so that we can see whether they are in touch with the reality of the lives of the people? I suspect they are not.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

The Deputy asked a lot of questions. This is a difficult time for all of us. Nobody likes to increase prices, but postponing the levy is not the answer to the problem. Postponing the levy just means it must be paid next year or the year after. As I mentioned on a number of occasions recently, the Spanish Government went down that road a few years ago to stop price increases and has built up a multi-billion euro debt that must be paid by consumers over the coming years. We do not have control over the PSO levy. We are implementing the legislation that exists and will calculate the amount that is required to be paid to the people under the refit scheme and the peat provisions etc. It is not within our control to postpone the levy, but even if it was, that would only postpone the problem to the future.

This is the subject of wide debate. Is Mr. Tutty saying it is the Minister with responsibility for energy who is responsible for the levy and the increase? Can we clear this up for once and for all?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

The PSO levy is determined under legislation passed by the House and under contracts entered into between the Government and the wind industry and other renewables, under the refit scheme entered into with the peat stations in past years and with certain gas companies. It is not under our control. The Minister has indicated that he wants to review the contracts with the peat generating stations for the coming years, but it is not under our control.

Was it within the Minister's power to ask the CER to postpone the increase for another year?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

As far as I understand, the Minister could only defer the levy if he got agreement from the people receiving it to defer it or not take it. It is a contractual obligation that they should get this money.

With regard to transmission charges, I mentioned that network charges were reducing. There is an increase in transmission charges and a reduction in distribution charges. The reason for the increase in transmission charges is that over the coming years significant capital investment will be made in the transmission network to bring things such as renewable energy, in particular, on stream. This energy must be brought from where it is generated to where it will be used. There are significant reductions in running costs on the transmission side and on the network side, but the capital investment which must be made will increase the overall costs of transmission.

Does Mr. Tutty accept that over the next five years, the CER has agreed to a 5% per annum increase, which will amount to a 25% increase in that level of the customer's bill? That is stated on the website.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

I am not denying it.

Will Mr. Tutty say it clearly?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

I am trying to tell the Deputy why it is.

Is it 25% over five years?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

It is because of the capital investment that has taken place. If the Deputy looks, he will see the running costs are coming down. The running costs in networks are coming down and overall between the two there certainly is not a 5% increase per annum.

There is a 5% increase in transmission charges per annum for the next five years.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

I said that. I agree with the Deputy.

That is 25% in total?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

How many times do I have to answer it?

If Mr. Tutty had said it clearly in the beginning it would have been better.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

The Deputy also asked why there was a charge on disconnection. There is a charge because there is a cost involved for ESB Networks to go out to disconnect. It is also there to encourage people to pay their bills and not be cut off. As I showed in the presentation, much of the time when they go out to disconnect, things are settled. It just reflects the cost and nothing more than that. It is a charge levied on the supplier and it is up to the supplier to decide whether to pass it on. If there was no charge it would mean the costs involved in going out to disconnect people would be paid by everybody and not by those who are being disconnected. The charge would need to be spread over all bills and not charged to the customer being disconnected.

We look forward to the day when we will have smart meters and nobody needs to call to read a meter. The meter reading is done by ESB Networks, which makes great efforts to get to read the meters. It asks people to ring in their meter reading if they are not there when the meter reader arrives. There are plenty of opportunities for people to get the right meter reading sent in. It is not lack of effort by the meter readers. There may be individual cases where problems arise. We have many cases coming to us because of estimated readings. I do what the suppliers and ESB Networks do, which is ask people to ring in their readings and not sit waiting for bills based on estimated readings.

The most vulnerable people are the ones on whom we have focused in our code. We focus on the vulnerable about whom the Deputy talks, by making sure they get plenty of notice, that the companies make arrangements for payments over time where appropriate, and deal with MABS and the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, which are actively involved with the most vulnerable. They do not just arrive at the door and say "We're cutting you off because you haven't paid." They make every effort to get payment or to make arrangements for payment and people are only cut off as a last resort.

I am not sure what is involved in the customer charter versus contract; I have not seen that e-mail.

We are paid out of public money. Our salaries are determined by the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Service. Generally the commissioners are paid in line with deputy secretaries in the Civil Service. I am paid in line with the lower level of Secretary General. We have faced the pension levy and the 15% or so reduction in pay that took place in recent years.

Mr. Dermot Nolan

I will add one thing on the transmission and consider the networks issue to further clarify. The transmission network is quite small. It is approximately one fifth of the distribution in total size and impact on the bill. If that is rising by 5% and distribution is falling, overall there is still a fall as Mr. Tutty mentioned earlier. The distribution network, which is what goes into everyone's house, is much bigger. The transmission network is basically the big lines between towns and cities. The increase in transmission is as a direct result of a Government target to bring 40% renewable energy to Ireland by 2020. That will bring wind on throughout the country. Wind will have a positive effect in many ways — we can talk about that later if members like. There is a target. We have an official Government target to bring on wind by 2020. That will require bringing on many transmission lines and as a result there is no way other than to incur this capital expenditure. We are responding to a Government target. Our job, first and foremost, is to ensure it is done efficiently. We will ensure it is done at the lowest cost possible, but given the target there is no way to avoid it.

I will make one last comment on this. Pretty much every country in Europe is to varying extents trying to bring renewable electricity into its territory over the next ten years. Many countries are doing this and they all need to expand their transmission networks. In Britain, in particular, there have been many varying estimates and talk of very significant price rises over the next ten years because they will build so much; they are talking about hundreds of billions of building transmission things. This is a response to a Government target. All countries are doing it to some extent and our job is to ensure it is done as efficiently as possible.

Ms Cathy Mannion

I do not know the details of what the newsletter mentions on that 5% per annum, but I would say that was a forecast. Each year we review the capital programme of EirGrid and determine what is efficient. What happens at the end of the day can very much differ from what is in that forecast. It also depends on how many units are sold. We are not saying it is a 5% increase per annum. Each year we review the situation again and then see.

The CER is stating that. I will read it out: "The CER is proposing a small increase in TUoS tariffs over the next five years such that they will rise by an average of circa 3% this October and 5% per annum thereafter."

Ms Cathy Mannion

That is based on the forecast. Each year we review it and where possible build in even more efficiencies. So next year we will look at it again.

I welcome Mr. Tutty and his colleagues. The CER has issued a code relating to the elderly and those who need electricity from a medical viewpoint. What status does the code have? Is it legally enforceable? What communication has the CER had with the various providers to ensure that disconnection does not take place?

The delegates quoted the figures excluding VAT. All domestic customers are paying inclusive of VAT. Between de-energising and re-energising, which are effectively disconnection, they are paying close to €200 — for gas the cost is close to €140 — which is a significant amount of money. Did the CER consider an independent appeal mechanism so that people could appeal to have the disconnection fee refunded? There is need for balance.

We are talking about network charges and transmission charges. Individuals are looking at a total electricity bill. I understand that the PSO levy will come in from 1 October at 4.9%. While I am not being facetious, from a marketing viewpoint, 4.9% appears lower than 5%, when effectively it really is 5%. Is the manner in which the public service obligation is applied in need of review given the changes that have taken place since 2002-03, with more than 450,000 people now on the live register, many people in negative equity and many more under severe financial pressure? The issue of additional ESB charges is being raised by constituents in every Deputy's clinic. Many people in employment are experiencing difficulty paying their ESB and gas bills. This is not an imaginary issue but a real one.

Will the witnesses provide a precise breakdown of the various charges on an electricity bill? While the network charge is falling, it only accounts for one third of a bill. The transmission charge was referred to. Will the public service obligation increase by 4.9% from 1 October in addition to a transmission charge increase of approximately 3%? Ordinary people, including the elderly, have been paying a carbon tax on heating fuel since 1 July and now face an increase of perhaps 8%. For this reason, it would be worthwhile to have a breakdown of the various elements of a bill as it would enable people to ascertain whether a new approach is required. More and more people will come to constituency clinics in the winter months citing difficulties with paying their ESB and gas bills.

While I do not deny the importance of building a network, ordinary people would argue that this is nothing more than a government tax by another name. What is the status of the code? Is an independent appeals mechanism required to deal with disconnection costs? Is an overall review of the application of levies required? As Deputy Behan noted, if the price of fuel is decreasing on international markets, the cost to end consumers could still increase as a result of PSO levies and so forth. I ask the witnesses to explain the position in this regard. Will they also provide a breakdown of a typical ESB bill? As someone who is not an expert on ESB Networks, I am asking the questions ordinary people want to have answered.

The reason for this meeting is that 900 households per month are having their gas or electricity supply disconnected. The winter months are approaching. I ask the witnesses to address the straightforward points I have raised.

Mr. Dermot Nolan

On the Deputy's point about different levels, while it changes a little from year to year, I will try to give as straight an answer as I can. The generation costs for the ordinary Joe, so to speak, are about 55% to 56% — the figure varies each year. The generation costs are the cost of producing the electricity and their main element is fuel. We have provided several notes, one of which sets out the position much more clearly. It shows that in the European Union only Cyprus and Malta are more dependent on fossil fuels than Ireland. To put the matter in slightly crude terms, when fuel prices increase Ireland gets clobbered in a way that other countries do not.

While the European Union data may seem arcane and messy, they show that Ireland has benefited in relative terms compared to the rest of the EU in the past year because fossil fuel prices have decreased slightly. If they increase again, Ireland will be hurt. The depressing reality is that Ireland is a price taker in international markets and there is nothing we can do about it.

To clarify, fuel prices account for 55% of a typical ESB bill.

Mr. Dermot Nolan

That is not quite true. The cost of generation accounts for 55% of a bill. This figure includes the cost of building the generator and running it by fuel. On average, the actual fuel cost, not including the capital cost of building the generator, probably accounts for about one third of a bill.

The fuel cost accounts for one third of a bill, while the generation cost accounts for another third.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

Page 9 of our briefing note provides a breakdown of the costs of the coming year. It shows that generation is 53%, distribution is 26%, transmission is 5%, supply is 12% and the PSO levy is 5%.

It is very difficult to read because it is not colour coded and looks like a big, black blob.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

I apologise. It is nicely coloured on the document available to me. That is the actual breakdown. The 4.9% the CER and ESB have announced today covers all of those areas. There is no further increase coming on the electricity side. As I stated, the transmission cost has increased, whereas the distribution cost has decreased. The generation cost has increased a little but overall these costs are neutral for the coming year.

The PSO levy is 4.9%. The transmission cost will also increase.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

No, the transmission cost increase is included. The 4.9% figure is the overall change in electricity price from 1 October. It just happens that it coincides with the PSO levy because all the other elements together come out at zero.

On the composition of the 4.9% figure, does it consist entirely of the public service obligation?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

Yes.

If the PSO levy was not applied, the cost to the consumer would not increase.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

That is correct.

Mr. Dermot Nolan

To respond to that point, there are many elements involved. Generation costs have increased a little because fuel prices are also a little higher than they were last year. Transmission and distribution costs combined have decreased slightly, whereas supply costs have not changed. Given that these costs balance out, one is then left with the PSO.

To what will the revenue generated from the PSO levy be allocated? In layman's terms, where does it go?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

It goes to the peat stations, two of which are owned by the ESB with another owned by Bord na Móna, the wind farms under the AER and refit schemes and a number of gas stations. It does not come into the general funds of the ESB or any other company. It goes to those who have contracts under the renewable energy or peat schemes.

When were the contracts in question signed and for how long will they last?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

The peat contracts were signed before the three peat stations were brought into operation. I am not sure of their length but it is certainly ten or 15 years from——

Do the contracts provide for a review to be carried out? Members are taking the perspective of ordinary people who are asking why ESB bills are increasing when the company is making a profit. Should the CER consider not imposing the levy pending the completion of a review of the electricity market by the Minister? It is quite abstract. I accept it is a technical area. I include everyone in the category of taxpayer because people on social welfare pay VAT and the PSO levy on electricity, which is in effect another form of tax.Do we need a review now by the Minister Deputy Eamon Ryan? From what I can see the initial contracts were probably signed based on the PSO being introduced in 2002, which is more than eight years ago.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

The Minister has said he will review the peat contracts. However, those contracts have to be complied with until they are changed. One cannot just stop and say——

Is the CER legally obliged to apply the levy from 1 October? Could it not be deferred until a proper review is carried out?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

We are legally required to calculate how much is involved in the levy and make sure the payments are made.

Is that directed by the Minister?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

It is directed by legislation, ultimately.

Could Mr. Tutty deal with the question on the status of the code of practice and also an appeal mechanism for disconnection?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

They are required to comply with this code.

Is it legally enforceable?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

We could withdraw their licence if they do not comply, which would be a major thing to do.

Does the CER carry out inspections and reviews?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

We monitor what is going on. In terms of an appeal mechanism, in the CER we have a dispute resolution mechanism whereby consumers who have gone through all the processes with their supplier or with networks can come to us with their problem and we adjudicate on it. Restitution can be provided to the consumer where necessary. We have an appeals mechanism and through that we know generally what is going on as through the appeals we see what problems arise. We get telephone calls at a time when people are about to be disconnected. We try to make sure they go to MABS or others to try to solve the problem. I am not aware of any case where we have had to conclude that the code was not followed.

Does Mr. Tutty agree that the number of people being disconnected is extremely high? Will the CER put in extra resources to ensure that the updated code of practice will be implemented and that disconnection will cease? As Deputies and public representatives, it is our duty to represent the issues on the ground for ordinary people.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

We keep closely in touch with the supply companies, ESB Networks, MABS and the Society of St. Vincent de Paul to understand what is going on and make sure the code is being applied as well as possible and that every opportunity is being given to people to regulate their affairs without disconnection.

Mr. Dermot Nolan

The market is being deregulated and the residential market will be deregulated next year. We have committed to having a consultation in the near future which will issue before Christmas to try to establish — particularly in a deregulated market, although in theory it should not make a difference — whether any extra protection is needed for vulnerable customers. I cannot promise the result of that. Ultimately, if someone does not pay a bill over a sustained period it is difficult to rule out disconnection as a possibility.

There is a direct correlation between people's incomes going down and disconnections by the ESB. Would it not be more appropriate for the CER to carry out a separate consultation now in terms of the extra protection that could be put in place? Every day of the week people come to us. One day it is an elderly person, the next day it is a young family, the following day it is someone who has lost his or her job. The irony is that they are the mainstay of the business in terms of being customers of the electricity companies. I welcome deregulation. It is a good thing. It would be good for the CER to carry out the consultation now. It could be done in the lead-up to deregulation. We should deal with the issue at hand rather than it being part of a wider macro issue in terms of deregulation of the residential market.

Mr. Dermot Nolan

We will do our best. I cannot make a promise on timescales. I understand the urgency. I do not intend to defend suppliers but most suppliers do not want to disconnect. They are losing revenue. The key is to try to put as much protection in place as possible. I accept that. It would be great if there was no disconnection but it is impossible to reach that stage.

The human factor must also be taken into account. At times it depends on who a person is dealing with. One must achieve consistency in the standard of service. That is important given that we are approaching winter. We do not want the situation to arise where an elderly person or a young family must face disconnection of electricity. Health and other issues arise. We cannot allow that to happen. That is one of the reasons we are having today's meeting. I congratulate Deputy Behan for requesting the meeting. It is important to get the message across and communicate with the suppliers in the electricity market.

Mr. Garrett Blaney

The Deputy asked a question about the PSO and the effect energy prices might have on it. I just wanted to make sure we covered that. Obviously there is a smaller number of plant with PSO than the totality of the plant in the system so if there is a reduction in commodity prices in general — we have no indication to say there is but it would be great if there was — the effect on the overall market price would be greater than any increased cost in the PSOs. That is the predominant factor in terms of the price overall. It would be unlikely that the PSO would increase more than the reduction in overall energy prices.

If there is a reduction in energy prices the PSO would always be less?

Mr. Garrett Blaney

It would rise but not as much as the reduction in the overall energy prices. It would slow down the rate of reduction but it would not mean an overall net increase.

The Minister should carry out a review as there is a need for one now. We are moving into green energy. That is the way to go. The decision was taken in 2002, a time when it would not have been as predominant in the mind set. I urge the Minister to carry out such a review now before the levy is implemented because this is the first levy increase since 2006. At that time it was a third of the increase that is now being put in place. It was €9.68 per customer, it is now €32.76 per customer. I have no doubt the number of customers is now probably significantly higher than it was in 2006. That is a call for the Minister.

I thank the commissioners for attending the committee. I have a few questions on the presentation. Mr. Tutty said the PSO levy is designed as mandated by the Government and approved by the European Commission. Does the CER have any leeway in that regard? For example, when the CER calculated the PSO levy for domestic customers it was divided equally among customers regardless of their circumstances and ability to pay. Do the delegates have any leeway on that?

With regard to the Government's obligation, could it have mandated the commission differently or set up the scheme differently? It is being done differently in other countries. Some of the proceeds from the levy will subsidise foreign multinational companies, which are obviously trying to make a profit. They may well take advantage of favourable tax regimes also. The burden of the levy will be placed on customers, many of whom are hard pressed, particularly domestic customers. Must the mandate be as it is? Why does the customer have to take on the burden of the levy, much of which goes to privately owned companies?

The delegates stated that deconnection must be used as a measure of last resort. A couple of weeks ago, my colleague Deputy Seán Sherlock gave an example of a customer who was cut off because she could not pay the €300 deposit. She had to pay a €300 deposit to a provider because she was not going to pay by direct debit. Many older or disadvantaged people will not establish a direct debit arrangement. This is an ongoing phenomenon. The lady in question was cut off. Surely that was not a measure of last resort.

The delegates state there is a code of conduct. What are they doing to police it? Can those being disconnected ring to make a complaint about how they have been treated? Are there arbitration procedures? We received correspondence from an individual stating the commission does not have arbitration procedures in place. Is this correct? If the commission is the only body to which a customer can go if he feels he has been treated unfairly, surely it should be the equivalent of the ombudsman. Does the commission operate in this way? What procedures are in place? Does the commission follow up on complaints such as the one I have outlined, in which it was felt disconnection was not a measure of last resort?

A briefing note for the committee states that the ESB does not cut off supply on bank holidays, and so on. Is this a voluntary decision or is it imposed on all the providers?

The delegates stated that the elderly and those on life-supporting equipment get particular protection. I agree with Deputy Behan on children. Surely they should be in one of the protected categories. When we talk of anti-poverty measures, children are singled out in the same way as elderly people. Why are they not in one of the protected categories?

The commission states that there has been an increase in the level of disconnection in recent months but makes the point that only half of the disconnection orders are signalled take place. Approximately 500 disconnections were reported heretofore but now the figure is 900. Were there 250 before now and are there now 500? Has the number of actual disconnections doubled? Does the commission have figures on this?

The delegates stated that a number of people do not seek reconnection, sometimes because the properties in question are vacated. Does the commission have figures on the number not reconnected because they go to a different supplier? If someone is disconnected by one provider, he might go to another. Can the delegates track when this happens?

The delegates' presentation referred to a record number switching supplier. Have they taken into account that this may be partly attributable to the fact that we are in a particularly bad recession and that people may be reconnecting because they are trying to find a cheaper provider or having problems with one provider? Sometimes people in this position, because they are desperate and bereft, might make bad decisions about changing supplier. They may change from one supplier to another only to find circumstances are equally bad or worse, thus provoking them to return to the original supplier. Is the commission considering this? Perhaps switching supplier is not always a sign of something positive; it could also be a sign that some people are experiencing hardship.

The costs of reconnection are set by the commission. Therefore, the ESB will state that it must charge a reconnection fee, or disconnection fee, because it is obliged to do so by the commission. Does the commission, which sets the fees, take hardship into account? According to its own briefing, its primary concern is to protect the interests of the customers, including the disadvantaged, the elderly and those residing in rural areas. If one obliges providers to charge a reconnection and disconnection fee, one could impose further hardship on those who are already experiencing hardship. Surely this is not desirable in terms of the commission's mission statement.

With regard to fuel poverty, the delegates say they want to protect the disadvantaged and that they work with MABS. The Government committed in 2009 to publishing a fuel poverty strategy. Has the commission been consulted by the Government on this? It has not been delivered upon yet. The commission should be in discussion with the Government on the strategy. Have the delegates any suggestions in this regard? The increases about which we are talking will be on top of the carbon levy. The Government committed to ring-fencing money raised through the carbon levy but has not done so. Has the commission discussed how some of this money could be spent on fuel poverty measures to deal with customers who are being disconnected? In August 2008 disconnection of electricity supply was very high. This was at a time when prices increased substantially. The price of electricity, therefore, has a direct correlation with the level of disconnection.

I notice in the delegates' presentation that there is a lower level of disconnection associated with gas than electricity. What is the reason for that? A story in the Sunday Independent some weeks ago indicated that there was a Government proposal to impose another 3% on domestic customers to deal with the issue of costs for larger employers. The proposal concerned the rebalancing of tariffs. Why would the domestic customer have this burden imposed on him? While I realise the cost of business needs to be addressed, because businesses provide employment, I wonder why a further burden should be imposed on domestic customers, many of whom are social welfare recipients or are on low incomes or facing cuts in their wages. There is no provision thus far for fuel poverty but the commission treats each customer in the same way in terms of the public service obligation levy.

The commission had a consultation on its public service obligation. I looked through the relevant list of people and could not see anyone representing the customer. I could not see any reference to bodies such as MABS or the Society of St. Vincent de Paul or those who work with people in poverty, children or the elderly. Has the commission contacted them about the public service obligation?

We faced a very cold winter last year and do not know what it will be like next year. If people are disconnected during very cold weather, it imposes a serious health risk, particularly on the vulnerable. Can anything be done to stop people being disconnected during the winter if there is very bad weather?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

That is another long list of questions. With regard to whether we have leeway on the public service obligation and on the question of why there is a levy per customer, I understand the levy per customer is what the European Commission required in approving the measure as a state aid. My understanding is that the Government does not have any leeway in how this is collected. We do not like blaming the European Commission, but it requires these things to be done in the same way in each country, as far as I know.

In terms of the PSO, we had a public consultation. People such as MABS are on our circulation list for anything we do. We did not receive any responses, I understand. If we had this would be included. On someone being cut off for not paying a deposit, the deposit is required because the supply companies with new customers need to have some protection. I cannot talk about the individual case but if they do not have a secure way of getting a payment, they need to have some protection and not just supply people without any payment being made.

We have an arbitration procedure, effectively, which I described earlier, not only in these cases but for any dispute a customer might have with the supplier, ESB Networks or any other part of the system. The customer can come to us with the complaint and we can adjudicate on it. We can require the companies to change what they are doing, or make a payment, so effectively we have that system.

Not cutting off on bank holidays and Fridays is part of the code imposed on all of them, I understand.

Ms Cathy Mannion

Yes, ESB Networks, which does the connection and disconnection, works on behalf of all suppliers. Therefore the same standard applies regardless of who asks for a disconnection or reconnection. No matter what supplier sells the electricity, the customer cannot be cut off at weekends or bank holidays.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

On whether children should be in a protected category, we can talk about having everybody in a protected category. Nobody likes to cut anybody off, but we have been concentrating on those who are most vulnerable, and on ensuring that the proper procedures are in place so that people have plenty of opportunity to make arrangements, go to MABS, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and so on. We can argue about who should be protected and not cut off, but the further this is widened the greater the risk of having a system that says, in effect, "Nobody shall ever be cut off".

There is never a case for cutting someone off if one is doing one's job. If the code of practice is being followed in the interests of the consumer one says, in effect, "The lights stay on, the gas continues to flow". That does not happen under Mr. Tutty's organisation. It is failing in its duty in this regard.

Children cannot control their parents. If a parent does not follow through with MABS and so on, a child has no say in that, so surely he or she should have a particular protection.

This is a key issue. The code of practice cited by Mr. Tutty said that the light will always stay on, but it does not. There is no excuse for cutting people off if the correct procedures are in place. I do not know whether he has done an analysis of the 3,000 or 4,000 people the CER has allowed to be cut off already, this year. This needs to be done. Years ago, in local authorities there were evictions because people could not pay their rents. That does not happen now, except in very rare cases, because there is a policy of intervention at an early stage if a person is in arrears.

I do no see why there is not a policy which provides that ultimately, if the community welfare officer or the Society of St. Vincent de Paul cannot help, or the parish priest, Dáil Deputy or whatever cannot intervene, a pay-as you-use meter cannot be installed in the home. Ultimately, if there is no electricity it will be because the consumer is not putting the money into the meter. Why does the CER not insist on that? Is that not fair? It would get rid of all this talk and obviate all these people being cut off. There is no need for that, ultimately, if there are proper intervention strategies in place. Why is that not the CER strategy?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

If the Deputy looks at page 10 of our briefing document he will see that pre-payment meters and budget controllers can be installed.

Why is it not "must be"?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

One cannot require a customer to take a pre-payment meter.

Why does the CER not insist that he or she is offered it?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

We cannot require a supplier to keep supplying somebody and not be paid. We are trying our best within the code and under the mechanisms that are in place to ensure there are enough ways of avoiding this situation.

The point is that it is not working. Some 3,722 homes have been disconnected up to 31 July this year. The policy is not working. Would it not save all those other costs, since if somebody is in difficulties and there are all these extra reconnection fees, he or she is facing into a nightmare situation. Children are on "life support" if they need their food to be cooked, surely. I am just trying to get the point across that the CER is not doing its job and should insist on a new process involving early intervention.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

We are insisting on early intervention. We are requiring——

It is not working, however. We have been talking about this, and my congratulations to Deputy Behan. The CER is starting at the wrong end of the business, while saying it is protecting consumers, yet those in extremis who need to be protected most of all are suffering the most. I have a couple of further questions.

We shall finish dealing with Deputy Tuffy's points, first.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

The Deputy asked whether the figure of 50% being cut off had increased. The graph before the committee would suggest that the trend is the same and that even with higher numbers it is still around 50% that eventually get cut off. On whether they are going to different suppliers, I do not believe that is the case because this would entail reconnection.

We do not oblige suppliers to charge the connection fee. We oblige ESB Networks to charge the suppliers, but what the suppliers do is up to them. We require ESB Networks to do it so that the charge will not be spread over the rest of us who are not cut off.

As far as I am aware we have not been involved in the Government's fuel poverty strategy. I do not really know why there is a difference between gas and electricity.

Mr. Garrett Blaney

The total number of customers on the electricity side is about 2 million and around 600,000 for gas, predominantly in Dublin and Cork in the latter case. Just on pure numbers one would expect gas to be lower because of the smaller number of customers

They have decreased, however, while the figure for electricity disconnection has gone up.

Mr. Garrett Blaney

Yes, that is correct.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

On the question of rebalancing, the Government decided to lower the transmission distribution costs for large energy users to preserve jobs and shift a proportion of this to the domestic consumer. That is already taken into account in the figures we have been talking about.

Is Mr. Tutty saying that it is part of the overall figure?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

Yes, it is.

This may appear to be very simple, but it is what we need to understand on the 4.9% PSO levy that has been introduced. I saw the same report in the media. Transmission charges were being reduced for bigger industrial customers, all in the interest of job retention. Those charges were effectively transferred to domestic customers. I did not fully understand it, but I should understand it. Can Mr. Tutty explain it? Jobs are very important, but we have the third highest energy costs in the eurozone. Can Mr. Tutty explain how rebalancing the charges towards the domestic customer is working into the price?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

This was set out in the document on transmission and distribution from which Deputy Behan quoted earlier.

I read that, but I did not fully understand it, which is why I am asking the question. I would not be asking it unless I did not understand.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

It takes into account the figures we have been talking about, and the total network charges for distribution and transmission are coming down for the domestic customer.

That is one third of the price. The transmission price is coming down for the industrial customer, but it is going up for the domestic customer. How does that work into the price?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

Taking that on board, there is no change. If it did not happen, there would be a lower price increase for the domestic customer, but there would be higher charges for——

The PSO levy is balanced in a way. Does it take into account the rebalancing to the domestic customer for the transmission charge?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

Yes.

If the transmission charge was not reduced for the industrial customer, am I right in saying that the PSO levy would be a lower percentage increase?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

The PSO levy would still be the same, but the overall cost for domestic consumers would be lower.

Domestic consumers are getting the 4.9% levy, but are they also getting an increase, or would the price have fallen if rebalancing had not occurred?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

Yes. They are not getting any further increase over and above the 4.9%. That takes account of——

If the transmission charge was not reduced for the industrial customer, the domestic customer would be getting the 4.9% levy, but would also get a reduction in the normal ESB charge.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

That is correct.

It took me a while to get there. Why is that the case? Why can the CER not bring in a reduction in the transmission charge and allow domestic customers to obtain the normal reduction to which they are entitled?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

We cannot do that because the transmission and distribution costs have to be recovered from the users of the networks. Otherwise the networks will lose money and will not invest. We regulate the networks, determine the amount of revenue they can collect, and distribute it among all the users.

Is that done by law?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

It is part of our duties as set out in the legislation.

Do all users pay the same amount for the PSO levy? Are all the increased costs being put on domestic users?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

The PSO levy is quite separate from the rebalancing.

Can Mr. Tutty answer the question? Is it across the board, or is it just charged to domestic customers?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

The PSO is charged to everybody.

That answers Deputy O'Donnell's question.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

The transmission and distribution charges are levied on everybody, but rebalancing shifts it a little bit more to the domestic consumer and away from big businesses.

It is extremely important for bigger customers that we are competitive at an international level in respect of costs. Could the CER look at this in another way so that the domestic customer would get the reduction from the transmission charges? Domestic customers cannot reclaim VAT and they are getting hit with the PSO levy. In real terms they are getting an increase, because they should be getting a decrease. Is there any way the CER can allow them to get the transmission charge decrease to which they are entitled? Does the CER have that flexibility?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

No.

Mr. Dermot Nolan

If one is to give this sort of benefit to business, someone else has to pay for it. There is no way to increase the pie.

Is that laid down by legislation?

Mr. Dermot Nolan

It is laid down by Government policy.

When somebody is cut off under the current system, the so called re-energised process can cost more than €160. If people who were not paying their bills were forced to use a "pay as you use" meter, there would be no re-energising cost because the meter would be in place and the people would either put money into it, or they would not. If people who have no money due to financial circumstances have to find over €160 to put on the light again or feed a child, then it is far easier for them to find a tenner or 20 quid to put the meter back on.

I accept that the CER is at one remove from the process, but it is the regulator. Would the witnesses see an advantage in having such a policy in place? Given the extreme situation in which a small number of people find themselves, would that not be more humane? Would it not be more focused? Would it work?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

Yes, and we have been encouraging it.

Would the CER not insist on it? Mr. Tutty is saying that the CER cannot insist that people take the "pay as you go" meter, but it could insist that the energy supplier, such as Bord Gáis or the ESB, must offer it to customers before they are cut off. It provides another chance for people to keep their electricity supply, and it is much cheaper as well. The ESB gets its money back. It is humane and it makes sense. Will the CER review its policy on this?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

Subject to Ms Mannion correcting me, I assume that is what is already happening.

It must not be happening.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

We require the suppliers to talk with their customers and see what can be done, and in cases of hardship, they are able to give them the meter.

I cannot see anybody who would not take a meter in those circumstances.

Ms Cathy Mannion

During the summer, we approved the purchase of an additional 10,000 meters, in anticipation of people getting into difficulties and trying to help them manage with the payment of their bill. The Deputy makes a good point that this helps, but it raises other areas of concern. For example, it is not always a good thing to allow people to self-disconnect, but that is another issue. We have been monitoring the use of these prepayment meters and we are currently looking at suppliers' use of the meters. If one supplier is not offering these meters, we will investigate why that is the case. While we cannot force a customer to take these meters, we are——

The CER can force a supplier to make the offer.

Ms Cathy Mannion

We cannot force suppliers either. We are looking at the suppliers' behaviour.

Why can the CER not force them? The CER is the regulator and it can order that the supplier must offer the meter, before it cuts off a customer.

Ms Cathy Mannion

All I can say is that we are looking at the pattern of use of these meters and we are talking to suppliers about what they are doing.

The use of the cut-off is very clear. Again, there are 3,722 homes and, of those, 2,300 must pay the €160 to reconnect. It makes sense and is less hassle for everybody to do it.

Ms Cathy Mannion

We are considering this area. Perhaps the next time we speak, I can give the Deputy an update on this issue.

I ask that the witnesses come back to us on that issue. Will they also give us an analysis from the energy suppliers of the breakdown of the household type, the category and the number of children that may or may not be in those homes, which is also important? It is joke to say "Listen, Mary. We will not cut you off on Friday. We are going to wait until Monday to do it", instead of saying "Here is a meter. This is the last resort. It is up to you now, given the money you owe. We have no other choice." That makes sense to me.

Mr. Dermot Nolan

The person may ultimately not want to accept the meter.

I accept that. However, the offer is not absolutely given in all cases. If a person takes the meter, that person can get €10 from somewhere and can keep going. If a person is cut off because he or she owes €485 and has to pay €160 or €200 as a reconnection fee, the person will not opt for that. In many cases, the family members do not have jobs and there are other issues.

I want to ask about the CER organisation. Mr. Tutty stated the CER may have up to three commissioners at any one time. In other words, it need not have three commissioners. Will Mr. Tutty explain this point? Is Mr. Tutty an executive chairman? He said he has four directors. Who are they and what do they do? Do they get paid for being directors?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

I am a full-time employee appointed by the Government. The legislation allows for up to three commissioners. Originally, there was just one but the Government decided to change the law to provide for up to three. We are all full-time employees. Despite what was said on Joe Duffy's show, I am not receiving a pension from the Department of Finance as well as receiving my salary from the Commission for Energy Regulation.

I did not ask that.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

The directors are not directors in the sense of being members of a board. They are the next level down as employees. Ms Cathy Mannion is one of the directors who head up the divisions——

I see six on the CER sheet.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

There are four directors.

I see a director of electricity, a director of retail, a director of markets, a director of operations and a director of something else which I cannot read.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

If the Deputy looks at the names, there are only four. Mr. Eugene Coughlan appears twice, as does Mr. Paul McGowan, because they are in charge of——

What appears on the page is in black and impossible to read.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

I am sorry.

I am sorry too. I cannot read their names. If I could, matters might be clearer.

On another question, what is the difference between Mr. Tutty, as chairman, and the other commissioners? Normally, there would be a chief executive. Mr. Tutty might explain this. Is it simply a choice of words?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

The legislation provides that there shall be a chairman and I have been appointed chairman for the past number of years. The only extra privileges I have are that I preside over our commission meetings and am the lead spokesperson.

Mr. Tutty is effectively a chief executive or an executive chairman. Is that correct?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

Yes, the three of us are executives.

This is what I am trying to understand.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

Some bodies, including the Northern Ireland regulator, have a part-time board that sits and takes decisions and they have a chief executive. We have three full-time commissioners who are effectively the controllers of the organisation. It just happens that we call the next level down "directors".

I am trying to understand — perhaps I am a bit dense today. The key point is as follows. The CER has up to three commissioners, with a chairman who is paid differently. Is Mr. Tutty an executive chairman?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

Yes.

Does he have executive authority over the other directors or is he equal? This is what I am trying to understand.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

The three commissioners are equal. There is provision for the chairman to have a casting vote in certain circumstances but that really only applies if we have two commissioners——

I am trying to understand the role of the position of executive chairman. The commissioners have collective accountability at that level.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

Yes. We——

Do they report to Mr. Tutty?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

No. We have a formal commission meeting every Wednesday, including one this morning, when decisions are put to us and we three decide collectively on all of those. The way we organise ourselves on a day-to-day basis is that we take lead responsibility for different areas in the organisation. For example, Mr. Blaney has lead responsibility for the safety issues, Mr. Nolan has lead responsibility for retail matters, I have responsibility for renewables and networks, and we——

When does Mr. Tutty act as chairman?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

I act as chairman at 9.30 a.m. on a Wednesday, when I preside over the commission meetings where we take——

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

I act as chairman when I come here, for example, and whenever any body wants the chairman to appear before it.

To clarify, the elderly cannot be disconnected for non-payment in the winter months. How is "elderly" defined? We have many clients in their early 50s who may have had a stroke. They have the same necessity as an elderly person, which I assume means a person aged 65 or over. Is there any scope in this regard? With regard to the reference to "winter months", we no longer really have seasons in Ireland. Some elderly people coming to us need heat all year round. Let us not kid ourselves — the period from November to March no longer covers this and we need to consider the issue.

Deputy O'Dowd raised the issue of metering. I do not know the cost of a meter but as somebody is charged approximately €250 to be disconnected and reconnected, that would cover the cost of a meter. Mr. Nolan might say no one wants a meter but any of the clients we deal with will take a meter. They can go next door to granny and get €10, or the Society of St. Vincent de Paul will give them €20 and they will have electricity instantly without having to go through all the paperwork to get it turned back on after seven or eight days.

As Deputy O'Dowd said, it makes total sense to install a meter and it is then up to the client whether he or she pays. The problem is solved. There has to be a serious cost to all the chasing up and toing and froing. Metering might equal this out and solve the problem. It would at least mean each person or family is responsible for their own power supply. It is certainly worth considering, not in six or eight months' time but now.

Deputies are very concerned with what might happen this winter. People are coming to us who one would not believe cannot afford to pay their bills. They are not elderly; they just cannot afford to pay their bills, although they might be driving a BMW, which is beside the point as it cannot be sold. Things have changed in this country but our policies are not changing quickly enough to match that. We must wake up to this fact. While the BMW might be a bad example, that is the reality out there. Things have changed and one would be surprised at the people who now come to us.

With regard to the €150 million of the PSO levy, my understanding of the figures is that approximately €78 million of this is in regard to peat. There are three peat-burning plants. Do the witnesses have a breakdown of what each plant gets? I have the breakdown for one plant.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

It is set out in the document which we published. Lough Ree will get €29.9 million in the coming year, west Offaly will get €42.1 million and EPL, which is Edenderry, will get €6.1 million.

I have a major concern in this regard. My understanding is that the capacity of these plants is much the same but Bord na Mona gets €6 million and, for some strange reason, ESB gets almost €72 million. I would be concerned if the PSO levy was being paid to subsidise inefficiencies in ESB. Will the delegates explain, either now or at a later date, why there is such a large difference between the figures for these plants? Is it a question of age, for example, or something else? I am told their capacity is much the same, so there is a serious issue in terms of the amount of money we are paying out.

On customers being cut off, in most cases those who do not pay their electricity bill simply cannot afford to do so. I assume the number of chancers is quite low, although I may be wrong on that. Surely it is a simple matter to identify genuine cases — a community welfare officer or social welfare inspector could provide that information. There must be communication between officials, Departments and private companies. I cannot accept that it is not easy to identify who is genuine and who is not. We as Deputies could do so.

Ms Cathy Mannion

We work closely with the suppliers and with the Society of St. Vincent de Paul in this regard. The latter is very helpful in letting us know who cannot pay and who will not pay. It would be quite difficult to make that differentiation without the society's help.

Therefore, it is possible to identify those who cannot pay, and it is absolutely pointless to cut off a customer who cannot pay. It makes sense to cut off a person who can pay but will not do so, but there is a great difference between the two categories of customers.

I am concerned about an issue in regard to EirGrid. I understand it sought €2.1 billion for four years — the plan is to spend €4 billion but we are only dealing with a four-year period — but the CER decided that was way off the mark and that it should only receive €1.46 billion. I am interested to know how that discrepancy arose, because I am sure the CER's estimate is correct. That points to a high level of inefficiencies or something wrong with the system. It seems EirGrid assumed it could simply ask for €2 billion and it would get it, with the additional cost being borne by somebody else. I would like a more comprehensive explanation in that regard; the figures are hidden away in the middle of the presentation. There are serious implications for EirGrid, a State body, which is spending a fortune on delivering a network. There was an example recently in my area where it blew millions of euros on a failed planning application. That money comes from taxpayers and electricity consumers. How was the CER able to conclude that EirGrid was so far off the mark — to the tune of more than €500,000 — in its figure for projected expenditure? Does that mean its overall figure of €4 billion should be reduced to €3 billion?

What is the CER's role in terms of overseeing EirGrid's expansion of its networks, apart from its role in regard to EirGrid's costs? I am not asking for the delegates' views on the underground versus overground issue, but there is a debate on that. Looking at it in terms of the figures, there is an issue in terms of costs over a long period. How broad a view does the CER take? Does it project forward 40 years or 50 years, for example, in terms of working out costs? My preference is for the underground and overground options to go to tender. Various companies have claimed they can put the network underground at a much cheaper cost than what we are being told, but EirGrid insists it is not possible because it would cost 20 times more than the overground option. However, we have seen today that EirGrid cannot count. I do not expect the delegates to be able to address all my concerns today, but I would like information on the discrepancy in the figures. It is the end user who will ultimately pay for cost overruns.

Given that the CER is no longer to look after business concerns from October, does this mean there will be a reduction in staff and in costs at the commission? What are the delegates' predictions for the future costs of electricity to industry? Will businesses be in a better position to bargain and hence to secure cheaper electricity?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

On the peat plants, one of the reasons for the difference in terms of the Edenderry plant is that it received a Structural Funds grant when it was being built by a private company under a public private partnership scheme. Therefore, the capital cost to the State in that case was reduced whereas the other two plants did not receive any subsidy for capital costs. The figure for west Offaly is particularly high this year, as I understand it, because there is provision in its contract whereby it can periodically have the cost of full maintenance or refit included in its costs. As a result, the figure for this year is somewhat higher than it would normally be. However, the main reason of which I am aware for the differences between the plants is the subsidy for capital costs at Edenderry which does not apply in the case of the other two.

In looking at EirGrid's proposals we deployed technical advisers who suggested savings could be made through what is referred to as "sweating the assets", that is, making more efficient use of existing assets through the use of modern technology and systems that are coming into play. We hope that will allow EirGrid to secure the same level of transmission capacity at a lower cost. That remains to be seen but, based on the advice from our consultants, we decided EirGrid should be allowed a reduced level of income over the coming years. In other words, that is the amount we would put into the charges it will collect. However, as Ms Mannion said earlier, we will monitor EirGrid's spending on a year-by-year basis and will adjust tariffs accordingly. The major factor in the cost differential was the identification of a more efficient use of modern technology to limit the amount of new investment that must be made.

EirGrid is the company that has expertise in the network but Mr. Tutty is saying that the CER, as a smaller organisation in this field, was able to come back with much lower prices on the basis of greater use of modern technology. This is a matter of serious concern.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

No, we employed external consultants——

Yes, the CER employed consultants who could and should have been employed by EirGrid.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

In line with our objective to keep costs down as much as possible, we went along with the advice we received from external consultants. Whether that was good advice will only become apparent over time — some of this is experimental rather than proven. We went down that road to encourage EirGrid to use the best technology available to keep down costs.

We must have the representatives of EirGrid before the committee. There is something seriously wrong if Mr. Tutty is telling EirGrid how to do the job it is being paid by taxpayers to do.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

Deputy English asked whether there will be a reduction in the CER's staff. Reductions have taken place as a consequence of the moratorium on public sector recruitment, but we are also being given new responsibilities in the safety area. Just because we are no longer setting prices does not mean we are getting out of that area altogether. We will monitor what is going on to ensure the market is working properly and that there is competition. There are many other issues for us to deal with. Price is the aspect the public sees, but there is far more than that happening in the organisation.

On the peat plants, I would like to see a breakdown for the past seven or eight years. I accept Mr. Tutty's answer but it does not fully address the issue. Something is not right in that regard, as far as I can see, although the figures may prove me wrong. The difference is such that it does not add up.

We would be grateful if the delegates could get those figures for the Deputy.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

Yes.

Mr. Tutty said earlier in reply to me that the CER had not been consulted in regard to a planned fuel poverty strategy. That consultation should take place because the commission's primary role is to protect the interest of customers, including the elderly, disadvantaged and so on. I acknowledge the work being done by the CER in terms of codes of conduct, referring people to MABS and so on, but it must be more proactive on the poverty issue. The PSO is a tax that is charged irrespective of ability to pay, which is regressive. There should be measures to deal with the issue of poverty. If the commission's role is to protect customers, it must impress upon the Government the need to take on board a fuel poverty strategy.

We have established that further price increases are coming down the tracks. We have also established that the country's largest businesses have managed to convince the CER to remove some of their bill and place it on the domestic customer and smaller business. Was the CER lobbied on this issue by big business interests? Will the delegates elaborate on why they came to their decision?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

I thought I had made it clear that it was not our decision at all. It was a Government decision.

The CER determines the rate of increase in respect of the PSO. Is that rate based on figures submitted to the CER by EirGrid or on a formula? The rate is obviously based on each plant and what is required to be done. Is there an audit of the figures provided by EirGrid when the CER decides the PSO levy?

Perhaps Ms Mannion could respond to those points.

Deputy English referred to the CER's lower figure. Was it the imposed figure or the figure that was provided?

Ms Cathy Mannion

In terms of the levy, the notification from Europe was very detailed. Our calculation was set out step by step, A plus B plus C equals D.

Ms Cathy Mannion

Yes. One must base the levy on estimates when setting it a year ahead. Two years later, one reviews the year in question to determine whether the costs were as expected and to make adjustments if they were not. Any correction, positive or negative, is included in the next year's calculation for the PSO levy. No profit or loss is made. It is pure cost recovery.

Are the figures on which the levy is based provided by——

Ms Cathy Mannion

By the ESB as holder of some of the AER contracts, some of the other suppliers in the market that hold refit contracts or some of the holders of the peat plant contracts. We will take and review estimates, but we audit all of the costs to ensure they were——

They are not audited until two years later.

Ms Cathy Mannion

One cannot audit them in advance, since one is guessing what will occur in the coming year, what the cost of fuel will be and what the market price will be.

For argument's sake, let us say the ESB finds that the price of fuel increased during the year. For how long will the 4.9% PSO levy last? Will it last from 1 October 2010 to 30 September 2011?

Ms Cathy Mannion

By law, it is for one year.

If the price of fossil fuel increased, when would the PSO be corrected?

Ms Cathy Mannion

One's first opportunity is two years out, given the timing of things.

Is that period set down by Europe or is it the CER's decision?

Ms Cathy Mannion

It is worked through when all of the final audited costs have come through. The first opportunity to include any revision in the following year's PSO is two years out, that is to say, the PSO applied two years after the year in question. If the price of fossil fuel increases or the market price changes, that must be taken into account when working our whether a correction factor applies.

Therefore, there is a large degree of estimation involved in determining the PSO levy.

Ms Cathy Mannion

True, but one tries to be as accurate as possible. One does not want stepped changes from one year to the next.

Does the CER have the authority to revise the levy in November or December if fuel prices increase during that period?

Ms Cathy Mannion

My understanding is that we do not and I will confirm that matter, but I believe one must set it for the year.

Mr. Dermot Nolan

It is set for the year. I am not trying to be negative. Fuel prices might increase, but they might also decrease and the PSO levy would increase. It cuts both ways.

The consumer would pay more.

The consumer pays more no matter what way one looks at it.

The following year, the CER would set the PSO levy even higher.

Mr. Dermot Nolan

Is the Deputy stating that, if fuel prices increased during the year, it would be good news for consumers because the PSO would decrease? It could go either way.

Mr. Tutty referred to sweating the assets with the ESB and so forth. Does the CER view this matter in terms of efficiencies? Deputy English asked a relevant question, namely, whether there was a danger of the PSO levy compensating for inefficiencies in the various energy providers.

That is the way it looks.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

The cost is calculated on the basis of the contracts entered into.

The Minister, Deputy Ryan, needs to appear before the committee. This is effectively——

There is a serious problem.

By whom are the contracts signed? They are between whom?

The original contracts for the PSOs.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

We never see the refit contracts in the period leading up to their being signed. They are administered by the Department, as I understand it.

They are between whom? The PSO is based on the contracts.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

The Government has made provision for subsidies to be paid under a refit scheme, including the latest one.

I understand that.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

They provide for how much is to be paid to whoever is eligible to receive the refit costs.

The contracts are between the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and the owners or runners of the plants.

It is Government policy.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

Yes.

The Minister needs to appear before the committee.

Yes. Many questions have arisen on foot of the evidence we have received in the past two hours.

I did not get an answer to my question to the regulator. Mr. Tutty stated that the Government had decided to switch the tariffs from big business or an element of it to domestic and smaller business consumers. I asked whether the CER had been lobbied on this issue by big business or its representatives.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

We are lobbied all of the time by business and consumer interests that want to keep prices down, but we are not the ones who took that decision to rebalance the networks.

I apologise for being late.

It seems that the consumer pays more when the cost of fuel increases and also pays more when it decreases. The PSO levy ensures this is the case. Could the ESB absorb the PSO levy in some way, given the company's salary structures and its €500 million in profits last year?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

That is not a question for us to answer.

It is a question for the Government. Effectively, the CER is operating under——

Let Mr. Tutty answer.

(Interruptions).

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

The contracts have been entered into with the generating stations. We cannot change them; we implement them.

Surely the CER is charged by the Government and the taxpayer with implementing policy that achieves the best end result for the taxpayer. The CER must apply the PSO levy. If a service provider or generator has significant profits and can see fit to pay its top people multiples of the industrial wage, surely it is for the commissioners to review that situation and make a proposal to the Government or the stakeholders. Is this not with what the CER is charged?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

We are charged with opening up the market to competition and minimising costs. In those areas under our control, that is what we are doing. For example, we are trying to minimise the cost on the networks, the area most under our domestic control. We have developed a single electricity market for the whole island on the wholesale side which we think is bringing benefits and keeping the overall price down. We have developed competition in the market and we are doing all we can in the areas under our control.

Have the PSO contracts been cited?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

I have not read them but we must——

Does the CER go back to the source contracts?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

——implement them.

I am stunned there is a contract in place that does not have a review clause allowing the Government to review the contract. It would be standard in any agreement when a contract was signed by a Minister before 2002 and it has been eight years since then. Is it not unusual that there has not been a review?

Mr. Dermot Nolan

The Minister has announced he is reviewing the peak contracts.

That is being done after the introduction of the levy. It should be done beforehand.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

If a person were entering a contract which involved building a power station and spending many millions on it, would he or she do it if the contract was subject to review without any limitations?

The levy is effectively being imposed by the Government on domestic and business consumers. The questions we are asking are legitimate. We all want to get to a viable green economy and renewable energies but everyone must play their part, including the providers of energy, and not just the end consumer. These are the questions which must be asked.

When a taxi driver must pay more for his petrol, he will absorb the cost. Is it not within the remit of the CER to ensure service providers like the ESB must absorb some of the cost?

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

When a taxi driver absorbs costs, he is charging the regulated tariff as determined by the taxi regulator who reviews tariffs from time to time. Whether the price goes up or down in the interim period, the driver must charge that tariff. The prices are being reviewed by that regulator at the moment and she will make a determination. We try to keep costs down as much as possible, as I have stated, but we cannot require the operators to sell below cost and we certainly cannot require one of the main competitors to undermine the rest of the market by selling below cost.

With regard to the contracts with the owners of the plants, such people want to recoup their current and capital costs.

Mr. Michael G. Tutty

Yes.

Does the contract specify an amount per unit of power? Does that vary because of different costs in building a plant? What is the make-up of the contract?

Ms Cathy Mannion

They do not all have the exact same terms with regard to cents per kilowatt hour. The gist is that the costs are covered.

Would there be an agreed percentage profit for providers on top of that? Is it built in? Some plants cost more than others and that is why there is a big difference in the amounts under discussion. Some received grants and others did not. I would like to see a breakdown of the costs.

I would appreciate it if that could be submitted to the committee.

It would give us a good picture if it would go over a number of years.

It might go back to 2002.

Mr. Tutty referred to companies putting capital projects in place and the requirement for proper contracts. I am not disagreeing on the point but we are looking to deal with capital costs through the lowest means possible. We must consider efficiencies within providers as they have a key part to play and they should not be exclusive.

Further to that, many people invested in capital projects over a number of years in markets that are not regulated. They take the market price as it goes up and down. There is no guarantee for them, good, bad or indifferent. We will revisit the issue. I thank the witnesses and members for being present.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.45 p.m. until 3.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 8 September 2010.
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