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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC REGULATORY AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 28 Sep 2010

Operational Efficiency: Discussion with Commission for Aviation Regulation

Today's discussion is on the operational efficiency of the Commission for Aviation Regulation. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Cathal Guiomard, Commissioner for Aviation Regulation. We are also joined by Ms Patricia Lamb, head of legal affairs, Mr. Alan Richardson, manager of licensing, and Mr. David Hodnett, deputy head of legal affairs.

By virtue of section 17(2)(i) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the same long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. This meeting will be webcast live and can, therefore, be seen worldwide on the Internet.

I call on the Commissioner for Aviation Regulation to proceed with his presentation.

Mr. Cathal Guiomard

I thank the Chairman and committee members. This is the third time we have been asked to meet the committee. As on previous occasions, we were very pleased to receive the invitation to do so. We have been asked to make a short opening presentation on the organisational efficiency of the commission. I will try to provide this by outlining our output — the work we have carried out since we last met the committee in May 2009 - and by relating this to the costs incurred by the office to do that work.

The commission is funded primarily by a levy on the aviation industry, but also by licence fees from people applying for licences. We carry out seven functions in four areas. We set two price caps, one on the charges at Dublin Airport and a second on certain air traffic control charges levied by the Irish Aviation Authority, IAA. We license firms, such as Irish registered airlines, travel agents and tour operators operating in Ireland and ground handlers at the three main airports. We have the role of enforcing certain consumer rights for air passengers in general and for passengers with reduced mobility in particular. We also have a role in deciding on the runway regime at Dublin Airport.

The primary role of the commission is the setting of maximum charges at Dublin Airport and air traffic control charges levied by the IAA, generally on a five-year cycle. We issued our most recent Dublin Airport price cap decision last December and it is available from our website. We are now in the preparatory stages of preparing our next air traffic control decision, which is due next year and will take effect from 2012 onwards. Last December's decision at Dublin Airport provided for an annual increase in the price cap per passenger of €2.33, to cover the building and operating costs of the second terminal in a full operating year. For the first time, the pricing decision includes a link to service quality at the airport, such that if certain standards are not met, the charge the airport operator may levy is reduced by a certain percentage. We have now begun to publish periodic reports on the service standard measurements at the airport. In preparing for that price cap decision, the team of economists at the commission undertook directly on this occasion much of the consultancy work we previously outsourced, including the financial modelling and the estimation of some of the technical calculations, such as the cost of capital. The team has now begun work, as mentioned, on the air traffic control pricing decision.

Starting last autumn, we began to move our licensing and consumer protection functions onto the Internet, both to make it easy for the public to deal with us and to reduce the administrative requirement on ourselves. This has allowed us, against what is a much weaker economic climate, to scrutinise licence applications more intensively, without requiring an increase in staff. In the travel trade area, 304 firms were granted a licence by the commission in 2009. As members will recall, last year saw an exceptional level of travel company closures - 19 in total - giving rise to 4,500 claims to our office concerning reimbursement of failed travel plans in respect of approximately 13,000 passengers at an overall cost of approximately €3.5 million. In order to process those claims over a reasonable period of time, we recruited, at most,seven temporary agency staff who worked under the direction of our employees to process the claims. Generally speaking, the bonds that licence holders are required to hold were sufficient to make good those claims, but in some instances, recourse had to be had to a back-up fund, the travellers' protection fund. As a consequence, the size of this fund has declined from €7.5 million at the end of 2007 to approximately €5.5 million today. We believe a continuation of the licensing scheme in its current form will require the fund to be built up again.

Two other areas of our operations are also moving to Internet-based work. The air passenger rights enforcement team has been developing an on-line passenger complaints system which will be ready to go ahead later this year. In the meantime, the team has been dealing with thousands of queries from the public which have resulted in the identification of approximately 300 complaints under the European Union air passenger rights rules. Half of these require to be forwarded to enforcement bodies in other jurisdictions, but half were investigated by my colleagues and by the end of 2009, two thirds of those complaints had been resolved while the remainder were being investigated. Our airline licensing and ground handling manager will also be ready to introduce an on-line licence application scheme later this year. In the meantime, she is overseeing 18 airlines and 53 ground handling firms which have licences or approvals from the commission. Given the weakened state of the economy, we have been scrutinising the state of these firms more closely.

In terms of our operational efficiency - the subject of this discussion - we have advised the Department of Transport that it would be possible to reorganise or remodel our role in the area of ground handling to reduce duplication of a similar role carried out by the DAA. This would allow us to redirect our energies and resources into the more critical airline licensing area. As ever, in 2009 our legal team was engaged in advising the other functions within the office and in assisting in the defence of any court actions. The committee will recall there has been a long history of court actions since the office was set up in 2001. As it happens, in June 2010, the High Court for the first time refused leave to proceed with a legal challenge and consequently, the office is not facing a legal challenge in the High Court at present.

The office is carrying three vacancies out of a total complement of 21 staff. This is a substantial reduction, given our small size and the activities we are seeking to carry out, as I have outlined. I am sincerely obliged to my colleagues in the office for their dedication and goodwill which means that even though short-staffed, we have been able to continue to do our work.

Since we last came before the committee, we have produced a price cap at Dublin Airport and defended it before the High Court and an appeal panel. We have started the move to Internet-based licensing and consumer protection. We have issued a little more than 300 travel industry licences, monitored compliance with 70 holders of airline licences or ground handling approvals and investigated some 300 passenger complaints. In addition, the financial claims on the office have been handled by the agency team.

Over the five calendar years from 2005 to 2009, our accounts show that our overall budget has been very stable in the range €3.75 million to €4 million in nominal terms. This partly reflects the fact that as reported to the committee on previous occasions, we have taken a series of measures to minimise our costs. We are also involved in other initiatives, along with other public bodies, in looking for further efficiencies. The Internet-based licensing and consumer protection system will in its own right, at our initiative, keep the costs of the office under control in the future.

The committee will be aware that a year ago, the Government in its statement on economic regulation, announced that the office of the Commission for Aviation Regulation was to be merged with the National Transport Authority.

I thank the committee for its invitation. I have given a broad outline of the work of the commission and some information about our costs to assist the committee's judgment as to our operational efficiency. We will be pleased to respond to any questions.

I will be brief. I welcome Mr. Guiomard and his colleagues. With regard to the cost of €2.33 per passenger on top of the Government passenger taxi, what is Mr. Guiomard's opinion on whether we are screwing passengers to the wall with regard to infrastructure, at a time when we are trying to get more people to use Irish airports on either short term or long term visits? Is there scope for a reduction in that figure even further? In the current climate by reducing that figure is it the case that financing is being tacked out for a longer period to encourage more throughput through the airports?

My second question relates to the travellers' protection fund. Is there a projected figure for 2011? The size of the fund has decreased from €7.5 million to €5.5 million. I take it there has been a number of failures - 19 failures according to the commission's submission. Is the commission projecting further failures within that sector and what contingencies are in place to account for that possibility?

I refer to the potential merger of the Commission for Aviation Regulation and the National Transport Authority. What kind of synergy is envisaged by the commission in terms of its role in that equation? I presume if there is synergy there will be doubling up of resources and personnel. What are the projections as to possible efficiencies in light of such a merger? Will Mr. Guiomard give details of the nature and outcome of the 300 passenger complaints?

Mr. Cathal Guiomard

On airport charges, I emphasise that the commission sets a maximum, a ceiling, on charges. There is no obligation to price up to that limit. If the airport were to decide that its own finances did not require the limit to be charged at the moment, or that a lesser charge would have indirect benefits by attracting further business and passengers, then it is entirely free to pursue that course of action. The commission does not have a direct role with regard to the passenger tax; the commission is only involved in deciding the airport charge for the infrastructure.

To have some clarity on this point, I wish to ask another question. I understand this is the Commission for Aviation Regulation. I ask Mr. Guiomard to correct me if I am wrong but in layman's terms I imagine that the ability to maximise throughput is part of the commission's remit. Is there scope for the regulator to seek to influence Government with regard to the annual throughput of passengers through the airport and how the charging mechanism affects that rate? I take Mr. Guiomard's point about the charging mechanism and I make the distinction between a Government policy and what is within the remit of the commission. However, I would like to see regulators expressing opinions as to what needs to be done to get more punters through Irish airports. If Mr. Guiomard could step outside the comfort zone and give the committee an opinion, I do not think anybody will come down on him like a ton of bricks. I make that comment with due regard to respecting his position.

Mr. Cathal Guiomard

Since the Deputy has asked for an opinion, there are conflicting considerations at present. If the state of the public finances was not as it is, then presumably, one would not choose to impose a tax on users at the same time as opening a new terminal. However, the state of the public finances means this is the position in which we find ourselves.

On the question about the travellers' protection fund, whether it declines any further depends on two things. Will there continue to be closure of travel agencies and tour operators which give rise to claims in excess of their bonds? Closures which the bonds were sufficient to cover would leave the travellers' protection fund unaffected while closures well in excess of the bond cause the travellers' protection fund to shrink. A medium-term view must suppose that as an economic recovery gets under way in due course and the business of travel agencies and tour operators expands again, the travellers' protection fund at that point will start to look small relative to the potential total claim upon it.

The fund was built up in the 1980s and has remained largely untouched over 20 years. The size of the fund as against the turnover of the industry in the 1980s was obviously much more generous than it stands today and a decision will have to be made on whether it is sufficient for the next period if the scheme is to remain as it is and, if it is not sufficient, in what manner it would be supplemented. On a technical level, the original fund was collected from the customers of tour operators alone. If there was a requirement for a new levy to replenish that fund, it would need to be collected from the passengers of all the companies in the industry, which itself would give rise to some reworking of the legislation.

The Deputy had a third question about synergies with the National Transport Authority. If I am to be truthful, I must say that we are hopeful that a merger will offer us some relief from the constraint of the small size under which we operate at the moment in trying to manage, particularly, the administrative functions where most of our staff are committed to front-line activities. We do not have a HR department or large accounting and central managerial resources at present. If we are merged into a different office, we hope there will be some scope to draw upon the combined resources of the merged entity. At an overall level the synergies that result from any such merger plainly depend on the manner in which the merger is brought about. If it is simply a combination of a set of pre-existing organisations, then the world is the same afterwards as it was beforehand and there is no synergy at all. To give rise to synergies in a merger there needs to be an attempt to achieve synergies and go about it in that fashion.

What is the state of play at the moment? Are negotiations ongoing?

Mr. Cathal Guiomard

The plan, as we understand it, is to have a phased expansion of the NTA to absorb the offices set to go into it. For instance, later this year I understand the Commission for Taxi Regulation becomes part of the NTA. Then we and the safety policy section of the Irish Aviation Authority are set to be absorbed thereafter. Certainly at our end, practical planning has not got under way yet.

Has there been any discussion at ministerial or departmental level?

Mr. Cathal Guiomard

We have not been a party to direct planning on that issue yet. We believe that is because that activity is directed towards other bodies at the moment and will be introduced later.

I welcome the regulator and his staff. I compliment him on doing an excellent job. I know at times he needs to stand up to people like the chief executive of Ryanair, Mr. Michael O'Leary, and it might not leave him with a smile on his face. However, if he wins a court case, I suppose it helps. Do the Ryanair refunds come under the jurisdiction of the Commission for Aviation Regulation? They do not. Is it a European issue? I am referring to people whose flights were cancelled owing to the eruption of the volcano and so on.

Mr. Cathal Guiomard

There are two issues. I thought the Deputy was referring to something else. If a passenger books a flight and subsequently does not take it, there has been a controversy over getting a refund of the airport charge, which by right was never incurred as the passenger never visited the airport or flew. I thought the Deputy was referring to that. The cancellation of flights as a result of the volcanic ash issue is an air passenger rights matter, which is one of the passenger rights functions with which colleagues of mine are dealing.

What is happening with that issue?

Mr. Cathal Guiomard

A very large number of people were affected by the cancellations and the Irish-registered airlines have proceeded to process many thousands of claims from their customers. We have liaised with them to establish what point has been reached in resolving those matters with their customers. We placed a short statement on our website a few weeks ago about that issue. It is only if customers are not satisfied with whatever proposition is put to them by the airline that they would then have an opportunity or an entitlement to come to the commission thereafter. At the moment the bulk of the activity seems to be at the stage of airlines dealing with their own customers. Depending on whether that is or is not resolved to the customer's satisfaction we would expect to see——

Have people contacted the commission so far?

Mr. Cathal Guiomard

Relative to the number of people affected, we have had a small number of engagements from the public at this stage.

How many? Would it be in the tens or hundreds?

Mr. Cathal Guiomard

Along with other such complaints that we would receive in any event, there would be a few hundred pieces of correspondence with the office.

Is Mr. Guiomard saying that the Commission for Aviation Regulation would only get involved when the airline has not satisfied the customer on the issue of a refund?

Mr. Cathal Guiomard

Precisely.

Is there a timeline in which the airlines are expected to have made their final decisions on all these cases? In other words, is there a defined completion date that by, let us say, January 2011 anything that is not resolved would default to the Commission for Aviation Regulation? What happens there?

Mr. Cathal Guiomard

The smaller airlines with smaller numbers of complaints - I am thinking of Aer Arann in particular - have finished dealing with their passengers at this stage. Obviously the larger airlines, Aer Lingus and Ryanair, have considerably larger numbers of customers to deal with. We would expect that by before the end of the year either the passengers will have been satisfied with what has been provided to them or they will be engaging with us.

That provides a timeline.

One of the problems I have, obviously not with the Commission for Aviation Regulation, is that the DAA operates Dublin Airport. Notwithstanding the fact that Terminal 2 has been completed, the DAA has ended up running it. In that context, it seems a bit like a soviet country where the state company owns everything. As Mr. Guiomard has said, the poor old traveller is being charged for some inefficiencies. While apparently the Commission for Aviation Regulation had no involvement in it, the fact that the competition to run Terminal 2 involved companies outside the State which run some of the major airports in the world and did not get the contract, is amazing, notwithstanding that I have been assured and accept that the process was fair. At the end of the day Pravda, or whatever we call these guys, has control.

The only hope we have of defending the rights of consumers is through the Commission for Aviation Regulation and its invigilation of the operation. Mr. Guiomard has said it is as cheap as can ever be at the moment, but extra charges are being levied on passengers who will use it. My question is friendly and not hostile. Mr. Guiomard has said that if it does not meet various service and quality targets, the annual price cap may be lowered. In other words, theoretically if the DAA does not meet the commission's targets, it will get less money from the passenger. The commission defines the level of service. What are the indicators that will show the DAA is not doing its job which will lead to the Commission for Aviation Regulation cutting back its revenue as a result?

Mr. Cathal Guiomard

There are now defined service quality standards across a range of variables. Performance at the airport is measured in some instances by passenger surveys which are conducted periodically at the airport. Passengers will be asked questions such as whether they find the cleanliness at the airport to their satisfaction and whether they can find their way about to their satisfaction. We receive those completed surveys from the airport every three months to ascertain how passengers' evaluation is evolving against the defined standards.

There are other separate measures, such as the queuing time for passengers waiting to go through security control and the proportion of time in which the baggage handling system is in full operation to the satisfaction of the airlines. The airport reports statistics to us on those aspects and we conduct our own checks from time to time, particularly of the passenger queues to verify that our own records accord with the reports being given to us. As the performance is measured periodically, the price that can be charged for the subsequent period might be lower. If the airport continually failed to meet any of these service standards, the price would be 4.5% lower as a result.

What transparency pertains with regard to quality indicators? In other words, will passengers be advised of them? For example, travelling through Dublin Airport during the summer, I was ripped off at the food outlets which are extremely pricey and charge prices similar to those charged in city centre restaurants. Are these prices controlled? The problem is that the airport is a closed shop and some of the outlets, which are mainly franchises, seem to charge what they like.

On our visit to the airport, we took some photographs because the dirt in the restaurant area was unbelievable. Tables were left uncleaned at what was a normal time of day. Does the commission follow up on issues such as pricing? Does it compare prices for, say, sausage and chips, burger and chips or a cup of coffee? How are these matters invigilated and what standards apply, notwithstanding that the companies in question are presumably contracted by the Dublin Airport Authority? Regrettably, I have found the eating areas of Dublin Airport dirty recently. How does the commission follow this up?

Mr. Cathal Guiomard

We will publish on our website short reports as to the service standards at the airport, drawing on the passenger survey information and other reports we have from the airport, which we are checking in any event. It will be possible to see from the website whether the service standards satisfy the thresholds that were set in the decision taken in December last. That is what I would loosely call the physical characteristics of the airport. It is not a pricing measure.

It is a matter of monitoring how Dublin Airport Authority allows the airport to be run and how I, as a consumer of the airport's services, can complain if I am unhappy with something. Are boxes to enable people to make complaints in writing positioned at obvious locations? Does the commission have a policy for assisting in that regard?

Mr. Cathal Guiomard

The DAA knows that if a company fails to satisfy service standards and we report this fact subsequently, the company's income will be a little lower.

While I accept and laud what the commission is doing in this regard, my point is a slightly different one. If I am fed up because I am being ripped off, for example, the problem is that I do not know who the manager is and there is no obvious place for me to follow up the matter. Is there an obvious and convenient location to make a timely complaint, whether in writing or in another format?

Mr. Cathal Guiomard

If I were in the Deputy's position, I would look for an information desk.

There is no point in doing that if one's flight is due to leave in two hours, one has eaten a cold breakfast in a dirty restaurant and, without wishing to be rude, one has trouble communicating because some of the staff do not speak English or one cannot find the person in charge. The question, therefore, is where does one go. What will the commission do about this issue?

Mr. Cathal Guiomard

We want to leave some requirement on people who are dissatisfied to take the initiative and make a complaint.

My point is that it not easy to do so. If there are service indicators at the airport by which service providers are judged, how will we deal with this issue? I accept Mr. Guiomard wishes to take on board my comments in this regard but more should be done to empower people to make a complaint. I found it impossible to find a manager on the occasion to which I refer because no one was around.

I welcome representatives of the Commission for Aviation Regulation. Is the commission a necessary body? Does it give value for money to the consumer? Does it receive co-operation from the bodies it regulates and does it believe the information such bodies provide? Is the commission audited annually? What is Mr. Guiomard's view on how travel agents are treated? Is it too costly for a travel agent in a small town such as Longford who has been in business for many years to continue to operate in the current climate?

I note Mr. Guiomard's reference to a maximum charge. Has the Commission for Aviation Regulation considered setting a minimum charge?

While I do not know who runs the airport, I must have travelled on a different day from my colleague, Deputy O'Dowd, because if a comments box were available, I would place a note in it stating the airport is doing a great job. I have heard criticism of Dublin Airport Authority over the years, for example, that it is a monopoly, people find it very hard to do business with it and it has been getting its own way. While I do not wish to disagree with Deputy O'Dowd, on the most recent occasion I used Dublin Airport, it was spotlessly clean, the service was fantastic, the food was good and the experience was great.

I am delighted that was the case.

I have a little tip for members of the public. If one wants to secure the best value, quickest service and cheapest food, one should follow the staff who work at the airport because they know where the cleanest places are and where to find the best food and prices.

Everywhere should be clean.

I could name various businesses in this regard but it is not my role, nor would it be appropriate to promote specific franchises. Unfortunately, I do not have a vested interest in Dublin Airport but perhaps some day I will secure a franchise in it.

Mr. Cathal Guiomard

On the Deputy's question as to whether the Commission for Aviation Regulation is a necessary body, the Oireachtas has seen fit to establish the office to carry out certain functions. We are pleased to perform these functions for as long as the Oireachtas wants us to do so. In different circumstances, the Oireachtas is free to decide that it needs different bodies, agencies and so forth to carry out its political mandate at a particular time. While we have the role we have been given, we will do our best to do it well.

The commission offers value for money in the sense that there are not obvious ways in which we could carry out our functions on a smaller budget. The commission is audited. The Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General is completing an audit of the organisation at present and we have an internal audit capability to check on the financial operation of the office in particular ways from time to time.

As to whether we receive co-operation from the bodies we license and price regulate, in general we do. The office also has some powers to require co-operation in the event that we are not satisfied that such co-operation is forthcoming voluntarily. At the beginning of the office's existence, we had to commence some High Court action and so on to bring bodies into co-operation with us. For the most part, however, we are satisfied with the manner in which the bodies we licence and regulate deal with us.

On the position of travel agents, some of them are unhappy with the current travel trade licensing regime. They are conscious that it places costs and obligations on them that other companies do not necessarily incur. The office tries to perform the function it has been asked to perform in a manner that imposes the least administration and so forth on the industry. Some travel agents appear to be reasonably satisfied that is the case, while others are not satisfied.

On a maximum versus minimum price, the regulatory function typically comes into force when there is a concern that a company is in a position to otherwise set very high prices. A maximum price is set to eliminate or reduce this risk. Typically, regulators set maxima rather than other types of price intervention.

Returning to the issue I raised and taking into account everything that has been said by Mr. Guiomard and Deputy Peter Kelly, if people wish to praise a place that is fine. It is important that the message gets through. Does Mr. Guiomard think it would be unreasonable to ask him to come back in three months time to give a report on what changes he can make in terms of greater transparency in pricing and taking on board comments from the public on pricing? One should be able to make a comment to the effect that a place is great, that people are being ripped off or that a place is dirty? In other words, there should be more transparency, visually, and more accountability through the Commission for Aviation Regulation and it should be more proactive on the matter. I accept and acknowledge that they are physical issues as opposed to the other responsibilities of the commission.

Some airlines allow a certain size of cabin bag. Perhaps Mr. Guiomard has not had any complaints about it but I will make one now. The size allowed by airlines varies. Ryanair's seems to be the smallest of the small. The size allowed by Aer Lingus seems to be a little larger but what about the poor eejit that is caught carrying on board a bag which was clearly made for and fits into an overhead locker and he or she is stopped by a person in uniform demanding €30. The bags in question clearly fit on the aircraft and were made for the job. Does Mr. Guiomard have any control over that? Some airlines operating here are ripping off customers on the basis of a bag that will fit reasonably and properly into an overhead locker on any aircraft on which they travel. Why should people be ripped off because of that?

Mr. Cathal Guiomard

As regards complaints, the issue Deputy O'Dowd raises about the visibility of procedures for making a complaint at the airport at a particular time if a person is unhappy is probably primarily something for the Dublin Airport Authority, DAA.

The Commission for Aviation Regulation is the regulator and it regulates the DAA. The commission sets standards that it must meet.

Mr. Cathal Guiomard

That leads me to the question of bags. Deputy O'Dowd mentioned——

I am not happy with the first answer.

Mr. Cathal Guiomard

That is fine. I am not finished answering. Deputy O'Dowd referred in his question earlier to a Stalinist economy.

Mr. Cathal Guiomard

If our office is to extend its role into bag sizes and complaint boxes we will have a more heavily regulated economy than we do at the moment. We have a limited set of functions. I hope they are the most important ones one would want an aviation regulatory office to do. Obviously legislation could be passed to extend the functions in a series of ways.

I do not agree. I appreciate that Mr. Guiomard is taking into account what is happening. I accept big issues arise such as the debt mountain of the DAA, the managing of the airport and other important business but if I were the regulator I would be happy to be pro-consumer even in an area which I appreciate is not the prime responsibility for the commission. I accept that an individual having a problem in the airport is primarily a problem for the DAA but on the second page of the commission's submission it refers to meeting various service quality targets. Would Mr. Guiomard consider including consumer services in those targets? It would not require a great deal but it would show consumers the benefits of the commission.

I do not agree that the commission should not get involved in carry-on bag size. It is an important issue if airlines are abusing a regulation. I would say the same thing to Ryanair about the size of carry-on bag allowed if the company appeared before the committee. When a bag fits easily into an overhead locker one should be able to rap Ryanair on the knuckles and say it is not good enough to do what it is doing. There should be a uniform standard that is universally accepted. I accept there are different aircraft sizes but what is happening is wrong. People are being ripped off when they travel because their bags will fit in overhead lockers without any problem but they do not fit in the Ryanair box.

Mr. Cathal Guiomard

I would be happy to send the Deputy further information about the service quality regime we have just introduced. He can consider the extent to which it deals with consumers who are unhappy with services. I would be happy to engage with the Deputy subsequently.

On bag sizes, the current position of the office is that if one wishes to establish an airline in this country and register it here then one applies to the commission for a licence. EU regulations prescribe obligations in terms of insurance and various requirements of the licensing which we enforce. Our role does not extend to the——

It is an actual charge on the consumer which an airline can make without reference to any other default size. If a particular size is specified that is fine but there should not be different sizes. Whatever bag one buys should be suitable for whatever aircraft one travels on. There should be a level playing pitch.

Mr. Cathal Guiomard

The role of the office is a consumer protection one.

Mr. Cathal Guiomard

In setting the price ceiling it is with a view to the person not paying too much for airport facilities. Likewise, the consumer protection role in the other parts of the office is about protecting the customers of travel agents, airlines or other category. We take that role very seriously.

I would be happy if the commission were to examine the issue and report back.

The setting up of a Commission for Aviation Regulation gives the impression that the office is to deal with all aspects of aviation regulation, including issues relating to travel and compensating people for cancelled flights. Shortcomings in the system are apparent when we probe many of the regulators. Perhaps that is something we should consider in the context of the terms of reference. The public is of the view that the commission is the all-encompassing body for regulating the industry but when we get into the nitty-gritty it is outside the body's remit.

I thank committee members and the commission with which we will liaise on other outstanding matters.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 6 October 2010.
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