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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE debate -
Thursday, 31 Jul 2003

Vol. 1 No. 20

National Centre for Technology in Education: Presentation.

I welcome the delegates from the National Centre for Technology in Education, Mr. Jerome Morrissey, director of the centre and his colleagues Mr. Mike O'Byrne, national co-ordinator of ScoilNet and Ms Ann White, national co-ordinator for interactive software in the curriculum. They are here to discuss information and communication technology in schools.

Before we begin I want to draw the delegates' attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee, and to remind members of the long standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Jerome Morrisey

I appreciate the opportunity to talk to the committee about our activities in the past four to five years. I have already given the committee a submission on our work and it should provide a quick overview of our activities against the background of our remit. I do not propose to read it word for word, but to discuss the progress we have made and what role we see ICT playing in furthering and enhancing education in the future.

Our centre was established on foot of the policy statement of the Department on Education and Science in November 1997 when the ICT framework policy was developed. It delineated a three to four year policy on ICT. The key features behind our establishment were to provide money infrastructures in schools, training for teachers, coming up with a level of interactive resources and materials which would facilitate teachers to use ICT and supporting innovative practices. Those are the key functions of the National Centre for Technology in Education and will remain so. The overall aim of this initiative is to integrate ICT into learning and teaching and make it a more exciting, fulfilling, self-directed and individualistic activity in schools.

I also wish to discuss the preliminary findings of a national census of ICT in schools. In 1998 we undertook a national census when the initiative started. This gave us a clear and comprehensive picture of where ICT was within schools, the level of technology and its utilisation. We did another one in 2000 and have just completed a more recent one. The final results from the schools came to us in February and early March. We are being assisted in this census by Mr. AidanMulkeen from NUI Maynooth. We have a range of preliminary findings that the committee has in the submission. I apologise for all the figures and graphs in the submission. When I was looking at what I would leave in and out, I knew many of the Members are professional educators so I felt it might be wise to leave everything in. As a focus, I wish to highlight some of the key findings in each of the different graphs.

There are now 84,000 to 85,000 computers in schools. That figure does not mean much until it is analysed. The key issue is that when the initiative started in 1998, there was a ratio of 37 pupils to every computer in primary school; 16 pupils to every computer at post-primary. The situation now is that the average is 11.8 pupils to every computer at primary school and 9.4 pupils to every computer at post-primary schools.

What is interesting in the table on computers and pupil ratio is that it tells the story of how schools, principals, communities and parents feel about the role of ICT. In addition to direct State funding for ICT, which was approximately €145 million, other resources to the tune of €13.6 million were used in ICT over the past two years. That is a large amount of money, giving an average of €4,300 every primary school spent in addition to its ICT allocation. In post-primary, it was an average of €21,500 spent on ICT purchase in one form or another. At primary school, this was primarily achieved through fund raising activities; at post-primary, it was through the reallocation of other funding. The majority of this money would have been spent improving infrastructure facilities, the provision of software, etc. It would not include training as this is provided through education centres at national level.

We asked a particular question in the census about disadvantaged schools as there is a worry that in some ways they cannot fund raise or they have a lower level of technology. However, the average ratio of pupils to computers in schools in disadvantaged areas was less than at national level. That is a good sign. I believe this is due to a whole range of other initiatives which themselves would attract certain levels of funding for ICT. This would include such examples as leaving certificate applied, leaving certificate vocational and transition year studies that attract independent funding for computers. The willingness of the school to divert money into this area is another factor.

The breakdown of computer locations in schools tells another story. The majority of computers are in classrooms in primary schools. At post-primary level, the majority are in computer rooms. This is something we want to change from the point of view that we want to see more computers in classrooms in post-primary schools. This is the only way we can facilitate teachers in using computers on an easy basis. The only way to integrate ICT in classrooms is if teachers are pushed because of the exigencies of the examination system. In primary, it is obvious that they do not have individualised computer rooms because the curriculum is interdisciplinary and the same teacher is usually with the class for the entire day. This makes it much easier to have computers in the classroom.

There has been a rise of computers in laboratories. The importance of that vis-à-vis science is most important. We want to see more technology in science based or practically orientated subjects. The number of classrooms with Internet connections is low. We have much work to raise the level of connectivity within classrooms. The statistics we have collated show that the majority of computers in primary schools are in classrooms, a third of them are networked and connected to the Internet. In post-primary schools, the majority are in computer rooms, they are networked and connected to the Internet.

In terms of broadband connectivity, this is an area where much work needs to be completed. The overwhelming majority of post-primary schools are using ISDN lines which is not looked at by the industry or technologists as broadband. It is not approaching broadband in terms of speed, so there is a problem on that score. A significant minority of schools at primary level have broadband. There is an issue around the provision of broadband in schools. The figures show that 26.8% of primary schools have ISDN while it is 85% of post-primary schools. There is little or no DSL, wireless or satellite connectivity.

In terms of usage per month, the average has gone up over two years. There is a large number of pupils using the Internet for e-mail. I will also highlight the figures for acceptable use policy for safe use of the Internet. There has been much work done in making sure that schools have such policies for access to the Internet. I believe that the greatest risk to the dangers of contacting people on the Internet does not reside at school due to supervision and increased awareness. The dangers are more apparent in the home and at cyber cafes. The percentage of pupils using e-mail in schools is obviously very low, and that has to do with decisions by teachers, with access levels and so on. The ways in which the Internet is used, as shown in one of the graphs, is encouraging. Teachers are using it for teaching resources and pupils are using it for research. These are the kinds of creative, intelligent uses that we want to see for the Internet.

When schools and teachers were asked what they thought were the most important facility or priority, they said, as the graph indicates, that pupils should leave with a basic level of ICT skills. That is a fundamental objective. The other is more broad based - to integrate ICT into the curriculum. There are implications for that in all subject areas. Paradoxically, it is being used more in the liberal science areas than in the hard science areas. English teachers, for example, use it more. One would not have expected that a few years ago. I would have thought it would have been used more in science subjects where one can get visual graphs and where it easier to see virtual laboratories for example. The science task force did note that the creative use of ICT would certainly enhance the teaching of science and I believe that.

The integration need is clearly demonstrated in another of the graphs supplied. Some 85% of post-primary teachers and nearly 70% of primary teachers said they wanted more computers in classrooms. That emphasises the point I made at the beginning, that if we truly want to integrate ICT as a seamless activity to which one can come and go, and allow children to come and go to throughout a class, one has to have Internet connectivity and a range of computers in every classroom. Otherwise goals will not be achieved.

In terms of priorities, we have issues around technical support and maintenance. There is a clear need for much higher levels of financial support for schools to maintain the levels of equipment they have. We are working on a paper which we will present to the Department of Education and Science as to how we will go about providing the level of support which schools now need because of the value of the equipment they now have - and the fact that it is aging.

The need for faster Internet access is also stressed, along with the need for ongoing training and the provision of more resources.

In relation to the international comparisons for connectivity, we are currently well beyond the average in terms of ratios of pupils to computers. Unfortunately, we are at the bottom of the international league, of the Eurobarometer, which goes back to 2002, in terms of broadband connectivity. That is a major issue. That is true not merely in the area of education. There is a huge problem throughout the country in relation to access to broadband connectivity. If one were to go to any telco tomorrow morning with a cheque for €35 million and ask for broadband, for two megs in all the big schools in the country, and a half meg in all the small ones, one would not be able to get that. Unfortunately, it is not available. The only way for it to be provided is by satellite. One could have broadband in every school in September if one were to spend a hell of a lot more money with the satellite companies. They can provide 100% cover straightaway, but ADSL is not available except in some of the key urban areas. Leased lines are much more expensive than in any other part of Europe, including Northern Ireland. The problem is not so much about funding, though that has to be found, but about availability of broadband.

For broadband, it is not enough to put a computer in a school. If one is to provide the kinds of learning experiences and the rich learning environment which would be a hallmark of what we would see as a digital literacy emphasis in education nowadays, one must have access to broadband. It enables video-conferencing. There is a European initiative regarding e-twinning, which is seen as one of the ways forward in terms of sharing information and doing joint project work.

The overall development of collaborative e-Community activity demands broadband. If one wants to utilise some of the rich resources on the Internet, fast access is essential. The idea of a teacher taking a group of children to a room, spending a quarter of an hour trying to turn on the machines, cranking up the Internet like starting a car with the old starting handles, is a waste of time. The 40 minutes are quickly gone. Teachers will not do that, nor can one expect them to do it. The Internet must be permanently switched on, with instant access to sharply targeted resources. The other element is that we continue to provide the types of very targeted, integrative training so that teachers know how to manage resources and identify them. They are not easily provided. We are engaged in working with RTE on a major initiative in providing science material, which is totally targeted at particular minute areas of the curriculum. These are the issues we must look at.

I will say a little about digital literacy and our view of it. Not a subject as such, it goes right across the curriculum. It is more an approach, being about the teacher guiding intelligent applications of the Internet resources so that even at a very young age children can learn at their own pace the skills of judging relevance, along with editorial skills, and can above all be active creators of a lot of their own material. The committee members have heard all these phrases before, and it is hard to come up with new ones when people talk about digital literacy, but it is about young people taking control of their own learning, of developing a methodology for learning for life. That starts at a very early age. The idea of a dictatorial handing down of big chunks of information to be memorised and spewed out during examinations, and of this leading to one being called "educated", is totally antiquated.

If our teachers utilise ICT and ICT enabled resources, we will in the true sense of the word liberate learning and education to be what they are meant to be. Digital literacy means an integrated approach throughout every subject on the curriculum. For this to happen, one must have broadband technology. This is the sort of argument we are making to the Department of Education and Science.

The digital divide, which committee members have also heard about, is a key issue. It is not about access but about how to use technology. The information society is no longer about knowing how to find material. It is much more active. It is about creating, composing, editing and producing. We have to utilise equipment properly. It is not enough for disadvantaged children to be able to use the technology, even if they could get free access in their schools or in the cyber café. One is still supporting and maintaining a digital divide. It is where there is intelligent utilisation of technology for creating one's own content, doing one's own assignments and projects which becomes part of one's examination entry. That is where one will have resolved aspects of the digital divide.

I have supplied the committee with some material on the Liberties learning initiative, because it addresses many of the issues regarding that active participative use of ICT in a very creative way. It is also useful in that it shows that industry is putting a lot of money into that area. We can learn many lessons from this initiative about how to motivate young children - fewer than 1% of whom will complete the leaving certificate in the 12 schools in the Liberties area. If we can use ICT to first motivate children to come to school and engage with exciting learning, hopefully a higher level of educational achievement will be gained in the end.

Our key challenge is to facilitate the innovative use of technologies in the future, and provide opportunities for creativity, collaboration and expression, individually or in groups. This technology has the power to assist in developing the unique individual abilities which every student has, and will help to facilitate independent learning.

I have a list of speakers in order of party size initially.

I welcome Mr. Morrissey. He gave me my first job in teaching.

That is right.

He was obviously a man of great vision. That was a long time ago.

Mr. Morrissey's last comment on the Liberties learning initiative shows that what is happening there is important. When the IFSC went to that part of Dublin it did not in any way serve as an agent of regeneration in the neighbourhood. What is happening in the case of the digital hub is the way things should be when receiving Government support. They should be supporting the local area. It is an important contribution by industry.

On the submission, I agree that the figure for locating computers in schools at post-primary level is extraordinarily low at 6%. It is obviously a factor of the ways schools are laid out in most cases rather than being a deliberate policy to keep them out of the classroom. What steps is the witness taking to try and redress that balance? Computers should be a tool.

The other side of the question relates to the curriculum. Is the witness attempting to add this as an examination subject? Are there any steps being taken in that area? Does he have any relationship with employers and colleges to try and identify trends in employment in the types of jobs that employers wish to fill? Is that factored into the work that the witness does? It was mentioned that there is a public acceptable use policy that is encouraged and developed in all of the schools. I am interested in the views of the witness on the regulation of ICT in general, or the Internet, which has been a matter for debate over the last two days.

I will take a number of speakers first.

I have some questions on the presentation. The delegation mentioned the need to have computers at second level in the classrooms rather than in computer rooms. In a realistic sense, how is that to be achieved? It will require more resources and computers, considering the logistics of dictating that they are to be in a particular room. In calculating the people/computer ratio, what does that include in the average school? Does it include the computers being used in the office by the principal or solely the computers that can be used by the children in the school?

For the millennium there was an initiative in Ennis, the Chairman will be familiar with this, to encourage computer use. Have any surveys been done on its success? Is it better now in Ennis? Are children and students more computer literate there than elsewhere? Also, are there any statistics to confirm that those who use computers at home are developing better than those who are only using computers in school?

On broadband access, the statistics did not come as a shock to me. If broadband is not in towns and villages, we cannot expect to have it in schools in towns and villages. The witness mentioned the wireless alternative to broadband connection. I do not see the Department of Education and Science providing millions of euros to supply that. They will be dependent on the national roll-out of broadband. It is frightening to realise we are behind places like Nicaragua, Guatemala and Romania in terms of broadband connectivity. Obviously, it has to be addressed by the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources in the first instance. In the case of the witness's plans for rolling out broadband in schools, how quickly does he expect to be online? When the 19 intiatives are in place, how soon does he expect the schools to be connected? Will there be extra provision or funding if necessary? The difficulty with this is that it will be somewhat expensive to connect. Businesses are saying this. Will there be extra money provided for schools to facilitate that?

The witness gave one statistic about the acceptable use policy for using the Internet in schools. I heard the Minister of State, Deputy Lenihan, on the radio the other day talking about a similar area, except that it was in computer use in general or in the home. The statistics he used were relatively good, with the exception of one which related to children using chat rooms. The statistics revealed here show that only 61% of primary schools and 67% of post-primary schools have an acceptable use policy. They should not have computers if they do not have a safe use policy in place. That is leaving nearly 40% of children in primary education using computers without any sort of policy. That is not acceptable. How is that going to be addressed? It is something that should be addressed in all schools by the time they reopen in September. This is urgent. I know there is a teacher in the classroom, but I have been in schools where there might be one or two children in the primary school using the computer in the back of the class while the teacher is occupied teaching. The teacher is unlikely to be supervising those two children when there are 28 more in the classroom.

The witness has the three year action plan, the blueprint for the future of ICT in schools. I presume the aims and targets outlined in that action plan are for 2003. What has been achieved on those aims and targets?

On the witnesses' website it is stated that the Department of Education and Science recognises the value of empathy in special education and has, since 1988, provided increased allocation of ICT grants to schools with special needs. I am aware that the funding for capital grants for the development of computer systems in schools has been cut by almost 66% since 2001. There were particularly strong cuts this year. Were the allocations for capital grants for special needs schools in 2003 similarly affected, or in light of your statement and the Department's statement, was that area left alone? Was it part of the general cuts that were made?

Scoilnet is the responsibility of Mike O'Byrne, and is the official website. How many hits a day are made on that? Are those hits from schools or in the evening? How successful is it and what kind of information is available on it?

I thank Mr. Morrissey for his presentation. I just noticed something that one of the other Deputies mentioned as well, namely, that we fare so badly in comparison with other countries in Europe on people/computer ratios and, more particularly, in broadband connection. That is worrying given our potential for job growth is largely in the ICT area. It is something we need to encourage as a lifeline to the education of our people. It is a bad start to our education if we are not succeeding at primary and secondary level. In relation to that, what is the involvement of the third level sector in promoting ICT use in schools.

One of the statistics shows that a very high priority for schools is the replacement of older equipment. Is there a breakdown of the figures available as to how many computers are old? If there is an old computer in a school it is virtually useless. I would like a reply to that question as well.

Very briefly, on a point raised by Deputy Enright on the number of schools that have an acceptable use policy. The points she has made are valid. Unfortunately, we are at the stage when computers should not be in use in schools if there is not an acceptable policy. It is something we should strive to have in place by September, as she has said. I fully endorse her comments on that point. Where we could be heading beggars belief if such a policy was not in place and if we were to have a school where untoward activity took place, how irresponsible we would have been in this regard. I hope this is something the witness will be able to address. I support Deputy Enright 100% on this.

On the statistics that have been provided, the point raised by Senator Tuffy on computers is recognised by those of us who have children and who want to change their computers every year now. It is incredible. All the excuses are given, such as it being impossible to do certain things if the computer does not have the necessary memory. It is a valid point. Statistically, when we are looking at computers, invariably some that we are classifying as computers may not be suitable for Internet access, or are some of them just one step above a word processor? It is an interesting point. Unfortunately, computers are not a one-off capital investment as they change so frequently. The software provided is making greater demands on the hardware in terms of what is required. It is something we may want to look at further to have a clearer picture.

The main interest I have is the future role. It is one thing to teach children to become computer literate and to move forward with all these driving licences that they can acquire, it is more a question of taking the greater leap into education, not just on computers but on the basic curriculum with interactive teaching methods. There are huge challenges in this. We need computers in the classroom. We need the confidence of the teachers in changing their methods of teaching. Broadly, without being specific, how far away from that are we? Certainly those of us who have children at that age are aware they cannot explain to their parents how they do things. They just press buttons and it all happens. That is what they want, it seems to be the way forward. If we want to maintain their attention in class we are going to have to become more interactive in computers.

I wonder how far away we are from our basic core subjects being taught through the medium of computers interactively? Is it myth or pie in the sky? Will it become a reality? Have we made a start on speaking to teachers' organisations with a view to doing this, and to the curriculum people with a view to moving in that direction?

I welcome the delegation. The Liberties learning initiative includes a number of schools. I am aware of one or two where there are children in junior and senior infants who are not even toilet trained. That is the sad reality in certain disadvantaged areas. If one does not have the proper co-ordination skills it is very hard to develop language. If one cannot develop language there is no point in using a computer. We have to keep things in focus.

I note that the allocation towards disadvantaged areas is higher. I want the opinion of the witness on whether, in the short-term, some of the computer funding that is going to disadvantaged areas could be better diverted into ensuring that people who get off to a bad start are brought to a point where they can use the standard level of computer in schools. I am concerned that there could be a continuation of them-and-us, even in disadvantaged schools, where people going to such a school, or from a more stable background, able to make use of the increased allocation, will surge further ahead of their counterparts who are left with the dregs and will not be able to use that equipment.

It is shocking in modern Ireland that there are children in senior infants who are not toilet trained. That needs to be sorted out. That is just a preamble, the overall allocation of resources is my main focus. Obviously the Department of Education and Science is coming under pressure from the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, and I presume Mr. Morrissey is always asking for resources when he can. Is there a way resources can be used more efficiently? I want to tie this in with industry. The Liberties industries, such as HP, are helping out.

I was privy to some of the research carried out into the wired for learning initiative a number of years ago. I noted from some of the comments made by various principals and teachers in the schools participating in the project that wired for learning had many pluses and minuses. For example, a minus was a multinational company providing the equipment and the system, which was very stringently organised. This meant that they had to use the wired for learning system on an abc basis right down the line. It was based on the way US schools operate. A number of the teachers and principals said they did not use it that way but adapted it to put up notes for pupils and between teachers and parents. Is there a way of achieving non-tied industry assistance, where industry is concentrating on the benefits of having skilled people who could be monitored throughout their schoolgoing age and possibly be employees later on?

The Tánaiste continually talks about the higher added value sector, and obviously IT skills are going to be very important in the future. The industry itself is going through a slump. Given this, would it be possible to set up a pilot project in schools to purchase a selection of standardised laptops? We all know the mark-up that companies make on their products when bought off the shelf, but there are companies in Ireland that are wholesalers. If there was a bulk deal arranged for a number of pilot projects it would be possible to get laptops or PCs at a hugely discounted rate. Given that the IT industry is in a slump at the moment, if a bulk buyer appeared they would give favourable rates. I suggest the Department takes the Ryanair approach, where they got their Boeing jets at a discount. It is a buyers' market at the moment in IT. Where allocation of funding is available, would it be possible for the Department to bulk purchase laptops or PCs that could be used in pilot projects for other schools? Something that seems to be lacking is the opportunity for pupils to access notes on the Intranet as opposed to the Internet. There is a lack of willingness among a large majority of teachers to get involved in the use of IT.

On the subject of digital literacy, if a teacher has notes on a certain subject on the Intranet, a pupil could look at that information, cut and paste it onto their word package, analyse the information and use it as part of their answer. That is what we all do now. If we are doing research we do not take a lot of notes, memorise them and work from memory. We are working in the here and now. Information is being updated on an almost daily basis. If pupils are doing that, they can analyse the information and use the computer to cut and paste rather than having, in an examination environment, to memorise. As the witness says, that is the way the Department is moving forward. It requires information to be accessible. I notice that questions are already being asked of Mr. O'Byrne in relation to Scoilnet, a very welcome initiative, but is it widely used by every school? Could this be expanded so that more teachers could put up resource notes for individual schools where they would access it with a password?

On the differences between computers in classrooms in primary and secondary schools, there are a number of schools - I know of one in Inchicore - where they have a primary teacher who specialises in computers and works in the computer lab, with the pupils in the primary school also using the computer lab. In talking about issues of acceptable use, it is better to have a computer room where there is an Intranet or monitored Internet access. There should be one teacher showing the pupils how to access the net and giving them guidance on where to go. For second level, as has been said, it is better to have each pupil equipped with a computer, or a small number of pupils to a computer, with their own password entry, to enable them to use it more creatively as they go on to second level. Are there attempts to get more computer rooms in primary schools? Are there any initiatives coming up in second level schools, with industry or through the bulk purchase of equipment, that could use default departmental software at a discounted rate to allow more people access the Internet?

I welcome the director, Mr. Morrissey, and the national co-ordinators of the NCTE. What is the requirement of school hours for IT per week at primary and post-primary levels? Is there a set time as there would be for other subjects? Is it a core subject or should we ask for it to be a core subject in the schools? As a former teacher I know the importance of training teachers. Many teachers have spearheaded the IT projects and timetabling within their own schools and are very resourceful people. How much consultation takes place between those resourceful teachers and the Department? The daily classroom experience is valuable to the Department so I hope there is an open communication system there or much expertise will be lost. For example, some teachers have devised their own maths programmes through IT and these could be shared throughout the IT system.

While students look forward to their time in the computer room very few of them have good keyboard skills, often they use only one or two fingers on the keyboard. Perhaps there is a deficit of training in the old style typing skills for the keyboard so that maximum use is made of the computer.

How are the schools integration projects going throughout the country? I was fortunate to be in Nenagh CBS secondary school where two SIPS took place, led by the expertise of Tim Brophy. I was involved in a project in which the NCTE supplied the leaving certificate applied class with a fleet of iBooks and the pupils brought home the laptops in the evening. It was a great success because the students had a 100% stay on in school record and efficiently completed the leaving certificate applied programme. That was an excellent project and Nenagh CBS led the way at the time.

The first and second year classes also bought computers which was interesting but as teachers we felt we had not devised the programmes well enough. We were at the infancy stage of introducing the computer in the classroom for every student but while that worked quite effectively in some subject areas it did not work so well in others. The 100% stay on record of students who may otherwise have been underachievers was remarkable and one that we should be promoting.

I too welcome Mr. Morrissey, Ms White and Mr. O'Byrne. What funding does the NCTE have per annum and what are its staffing levels? According to its submission, the NCTE was established to support and advise schools and to help with the development infrastructure of ICT related professional development. Does it have anything to do with the provision of hardware and software and, if not, who does? Many schools are grant aided individually and then go and do their own thing. Does that mean we are losing out on economies of scale on the strength of bulk purchase at a central level? Am I right in saying that in Northern Ireland, the schools have an overall contract and purchase in bulk? In that way the equipment could be more compatible. Could the NCTE compare the approach to the ICT schools project here with that in the North?

My understanding - and the NCTE can correct me if I am wrong - is that £204 million has been invested in the North, for six counties, whereas we have invested €159 million for 26 counties. The North has put far more in and has bulk purchase. Perhaps the funding is better used there where there are other projects planned. Have we any proposals to do this kind of thing, for instance, the latest project there is an on-line data centre? What is next here? What are the next two or three big projects? We know what has happened up to now, and how many computers are in the schools but what comes next, for instance, is there any plan for on-line conferencing services between schools? Web publishing and hosting facilities are being planned in the North. Is anything like that being planned here?

The NCTE mentioned the importance of broadband and yesterday the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, announced that he was going to launch a major initiative to bring broadband to all primary and secondary schools. He said that the report was clear on the need to deliver broadband to every school and that he is determined this will happen next year. He is considering financing it. I assume that the NCTE knows all about this and perhaps it can tell us how this is going to happen.

The speakers mentioned that it would not be possible for this to happen because the fibre is not in the ground and the network is not in place but it could happen by satellite if enough money was put into it. That does not mean a satellite dish in every school; it could mean a satellite dish in every town and it could be relayed by wireless and the schools could plug into it. Would that be a way to go? Has the NCTE looked at the possibility of schools filtering material? Only yesterday the Minister of State at the Department for Health and Children, Deputy Brian Lenihan, was talking about pornography and so forth on the net. Has anyone looked at the filtering so that children are protected and how is that monitored? Some of the satellite companies have trip-wires in place so that they can see if this is happening.

Has the NCTE looked at copyright where schools are concerned in the use of the Internet? This was a serious issue when the Copyright and Related Rights Act 2000 was passed. Has it progressed since then and how is that impinging on the work with IT in schools? Special needs students benefit from computers, particularly students who have a problem being in a classroom. Their social difficulties are such that they cannot get on with other students due to hyperactivity or something else. Has any work been done to provide these students with a facility to learn elswhere, at home on their own through the Internet, or through being linked to schools? Likewise, people in hospital could connect to their schools through the Internet, as is done in other places. Has the NCTE looked at that and, if so, what progress can we expect in this area?

I welcome Mr. Morrissey and his staff. I am not too surprised at the enthusiasm with which he and his team have grasped this initiative because in his former role he imbued those around him with a spirit of innovation. I commend the manner in which his team has taken on this great challenge, and it is a challenge, even though young people have taken naturally to technology because they are growing up with it.

Deputy Hoctor has stolen my thunder as I am also a former teacher. With regard to teacher training, in some instances there is a specialist computer teacher in primary and secondary schools who is the resource teacher for the staff. The NCTE figures suggest that the rate of integration of the computer into the classroom setting has accelerated and I welcome that. Does the NCTE believe there is a need to upgrade the quality of teacher training in order to spread that skill more widely across any particular staff at primary and second level? If so, what is needed by way of in-service training in this area?

Is the NCTE happy with the level and quality of integration? It has given us figures for the integration of the system into primary and post-primary levels but is it happy that over the short period from 1998 to the present day there has been a qualitatively significant level of integration? Does it envisage any particular barriers? It mentioned the absence of broadband being a serious hindrance to the rate of acceleration. I would like to see, and would envisage, this at school level but are there any other barriers, apart from teacher training, that it envisages in its next plan for implementation should be taken on board? Has it flagged those for the Department?

I warmly encourage the Liberties learning initiative. As one who taught for 12 years in a disadvantaged area close to Leinster House, and witnessed the difficulties there, even when innovation was brought to a school setting, there is much to be said for bringing technology to the coalface there. Underachievement in social skills and educational attainment was evident and persistent in disadvantaged areas despite the many initiatives, outside technology, that successive Governments undertook there. I have no doubt that technology will play a significant role in enhancing educational achievement and social skills in those areas.

Two Deputies referred to the difficulties in achievement and other prospects facing disadvantaged children at the start of their educational career but I do not understand their point. With respect, these children do not share my inhibtion in grasping the technology challenge. As that is not an inhibition there is no doubt that its use and implementation and integration into such communities would be an enhancement.

I commend the NCTE's work. There are many challenges ahead but Mr. Morrissey has the drive, initiative and innovative spirit to take on those challenges.

I thank the NCTE for an interesting presentation. I join my colleagues who have expressed concern about the safe use of the Internet. This is a topical issue and while the figure of 61% of primary school students using the Internet safely is significant, it should be higher and this should be considered for the future. There is significant work in progress in my area, County Kilkenny, laying the ducts for broadband. These are going through several villages in the south of the county, by the gates of schools, but no work is being done to connect these schools to the broadband outside their gates. What is the timescale for connection of schools that are immediate to the major works being carried out now?

Like Deputy Andrews, I was a teacher for a short time until I ended up here. It is only six years since I left secondary school as a student and although it was modern school I never saw a computer from the time I entered to the time I left. The building was modern but the management regime was in the old style and it had difficulty with IT in general. Are there difficulties with school managements, particularly in secondary schools, or has that changed with the passage of time? Deputy Hoctor asked about the set times in primary and secondary schools and it is a good question.

The Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Noel Dempsey, said that the cut in the budget for IT in schools was made because the information and communications technology sector for schools was under review. Is there a review under way and when are we going to see the fruits of that review? Is the NCTE privileged to tell us what this indicates? While it does not have control over funding, is it of the view that the funding will be increased again once the review has been conducted?

Are there any other items members who have contributed want to throw into the mix now? Normally in discussing educational matters I have some confidence or competence but this is one of the areas in which I tread warily. Some of my former colleagues say that sometimes adjusting their timetable to facilitate IT means that it can become less a facilitator and more a barrier. In some sense this echoes Deputy Enright's point about schools being able to accommodate only a few with their limited ICT capacity and trying to do other things with the other people. That is a genuine concern for many teachers. I would be concerned about it if I were consigned to the classroom again. I do not know how it can be successfully addressed because it is a serious difficulty for people who are not confident in dealing with this area.

I recently spoke with the IT co-ordinator, an enthusiastic young lady, at the Ennis Teachers' Centre. She spoke about a pilot programme for traditional arts and music through IT. Some teachers have managed successfully to make IT a facilitator, most frequently as the deputation stated, not just for technology but for other subjects. It is a wonderful resource that relatively few people seem to be able to master the usage of successfully.

The IT group in the Leader group in County Clare did a study on access to informationtechnology in the community and in the classrooms. This study exempted Ennis, as this is the Information Age town with a high level of access. However, in the rest of the county there seems to be an enormous gulf in access. I will send the deputation copies of the study if they wish.

The question referred to in the presentation about access versus skills is one that presents enormous difficulties. We tend to say that children are good at IT and use it more readily than adults. However, I cannot help suspecting that some less forward children can have certain difficulties in accessing IT. For example, people with basic literacy problems have a difficulty in progressing with IT. However, in some cases, people dealing with such children may not recognise other difficulties. This also presents difficulties for teachers trying to get movement in that area.

Another area of IT, though peripheral to some extent, is text messaging. Everybody in a certain age group, regardless of their literacy skills, are proficient in this. I wonder if the deputation could comment on this.

I will take the questions in order. Deputy Andrews asked about the curriculum and the subjects. It is true that the unit in the Department of Education and Science which manages our group also supports two ICT education officers in the NCCA. Their role is to work closely with us. They also work with the NCCA as it evaluates each new curriculum coming on-line. Over the next three or four years, as the curricula at both primary and post-primary are being continually renewed, that ICT will be integrated. That also answers part of Senator Fitzgerald's question.

In terms of formulating the curriculum at primary level and identifying the content of each of the post-primary syllabi, ICT will be recognised as a mediator, a facilitator and a source. The PCSP which trains the teachers in the implementation of new primary school curriculum will take care of the pedagogics and classroom management issues of using ICT. For serious change to take place using all the potential and enablement of ICT, it depends on classroom management of the technology.

It will be seven to ten years before we see anything that can be broached as revolutionary. It takes a long time to bring in change as there are many vested interests. We must look at our examination system. We have to look at what counts as an examination in the first place. Is it just the regurgitation of fact and information? If it remains as such, this will have a dominating effect. To bring about a revolution in seven to ten years in the notion of what learning is all about and facilitating that change, is not really a long time.

On working with industry, we are conscious that more than 12,000 people are employed in the ICT industry. We work all the time with employers in sponsorship programmes. Some of the sponsorship is not tied in while other sponsorship is purely magnanimous. I am a member of the education sub-committee of ICT Ireland, a subset of IBEC. Through this, I am always talking with Forfás, the IDA and Enterprise Ireland. We are close as we need to be in terms of implementing ICT in schools. I know that at higher and interdepartmental levels there are other contacts and communications.

We have secured approximately £35 million of investment and support from industry and commerce over the last four and a half years. That is a comment on how industry views ICT. The more we go on, the more industry is demanding of policy and securing inward investment. The whole notion of ICT skills being attained at third level is not sufficient anymore. The whole throughput of graduates in engineering, technology and science is not enough. Industry is asking how ICT training is being taken care of in primary and post-primary schools. It is also asking how we are faring internationally. Are we in keeping with the trend of fewer and fewer people taking science and technology? How are we going to secure our young employees of ten years time if young people are not sensitised and not provided for in these areas? I believe ICT has a role to play in the science and technology areas.

On the issue of Internet safety, a number of Deputies and Senators referred to the figure of 39% of schools have an acceptable use policy. However, up to 95% of schools have an IT acceptable use policy. This includes access, e-mails, etc. The question asked in the survey was purely about safety and the whole issue of protecting children from pornographic images. We asked it although we had already prepared an information booklet on the subject. We worked on this with parents and principals associations. We sent 500,000 leaflets to schools last September. We also sent them to every health board, clinic, pharmacy, library and dentist in the State. There is a huge amount of information in schools about Internet safety and safe practices. There is also a huge amount of information through all the parents groups in the public arena.

Having said that, I agree with the concern of members. However, against all of that, last May we sent further guidelines to schools on how to draw up a safety statement in addition to all the other safeguards in place. We will not be happy until we see a specific written safety policy. We cannot extrapolate from that in the 39% of schools there is not a huge wad of other safety initiatives in place. It was our research that was quoted in the newspapers yesterday. In terms of international comparison, particularly with the Scandinavian countries, our level of awareness and safety for Internet use would be very high.

Deputy Enright asked about PCs in the classrooms. The survey excluded administrative PCs. Computers in offices and even the career guidance room were excluded. The computers referred to in the survey are those that are overwhelmingly used for educational activities. Deputy Enright asked about the information towns with the example of Michael Byrne in Ennis, County Clare. We have made efforts to work with all the schools in Ennis in the past four or five years. We had an integrated project with all the schools to facilitate inter-collaboration and communication. That project is being reviewed and evaluated at present. We did not carry out any further study beyond this. We are waiting to see the results of that project. Obviously, because Ennis is a model and it is so far advanced in terms of levels of technology and broadband connectivity, we supported every school by way of an innovative project. These come under the SIP and I will answer that when I deal with the specific SIP question.

A number of members spoke about broadband and the demands in the metropolitan areas and 19 towns. We have spoken to the project managers in Cork, Sligo and Westport. As they are coming onstream, we are talking to them about identifying schools for broadband connection. It is hard to get them to change the physical path of the loop they are creating. In Cork, they came to us and were seeking to connect three or four schools. A certain proportion of their grant from the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources has itemised that they must, where possible, leave a connecting point for schools. They will not connect the actual school, but will leave a connecting point for schools and libraries. We have already spoken to the project in Cork where they could possibly connect up to 18 or 19 schools. We are also dealing with the broadband roll out in Mayo and Sligo.

There are problems with this as they are all coming on-line in different phases. There is actually no absolute requirement for them to contact us about schools. Some of the projects are doing good work on the ground in identifying locally with the local authorities and corporation which schools to connect. It is something we are aggressively trying to influence so that we can maximise the number of high quality points outside schools.

Deputy Enright asked about ScoilNet. Mr. Michael O'Byrne will answer those questions.

Mr. Michael O’Byrne

There are two parts to the Deputy's question about ScoilNet. One was about the hit per day on the website; the other was on the type of information the site provides.

The ScoilNet website has been redeveloped and will be relaunched this September. There was a project involving the future Irish term of the EU Presidency with a vote for the best logo. We have statistics for the actual number of hits for that period. They cover a six week period in schools, so the hits were derived from there as opposed to outside. There were 400,000 hits in that six week period. That is the most relevant data we have.

We provide two types of material breaking down evenly between curricular resources and materials that teachers would use; information and support information that teachers would also use. There are parents, students and teachers and we try and cross that material - the curricular and actual resources plus relevant information and support information on those three levels. The material is generally material we hold on the site. This includes learning plans, worksheets and other relevant information. The site also hosts links to information and reviewed websites. From the actual survey and research we did before the redevelopment, teachers were particularly looking for information and resources on special needs. This demand went right across mainstream and special needs teachers. That information was on the old site but we have now prioritised that and brought it up to all levels. Now when one goes on to the site, special needs information is relevant. In the survey, demand for classroom materials came up again.

The Deputy raised the issue about capital grants in the year 2003. There have not been any capital grants made in 2003 so far. However, I expect there will be some in the autumn.

Regarding laptops, we have a pilot project currently in place for the special needs area where we have almost 600 laptops in 31 schools. That project focuses on students with learning difficulties, including dyslexia, is run and managed by us. One of the aims of the project is to let pupils take the laptops home in the evenings. That is not the easiest thing to encourage. We hear scary stories about people having the laptops pinched. In some places, one can be asked to hand over runners; so we know how we would feel with a laptop bag. However, confidence is being developed. The use of laptops throughout the school environment enables flexibility of use. NCTE and the Department of Education and Science do not have any other proposals to look at future laptop programmes until we see the results of the initial project.

Senator Tuffy talked about third level, pre-service and in-service education. We have always spoken to the providers of teacher training at both primary and post-primary levels. Much progress has been made in that area. In 1998 some of the training colleges would have had poor levels of IT infrastructure. In the meantime, they have all built up full-time lecturing posts in ICT. They are looking at integrating ICT studies throughout the various aspects of the programmes. There is much co-operation and we work with them on many innovative projects at school level. We also have them as part of our in-service design team. Third level colleges are taking the whole business of ICT as an element of teacher training seriously.

In terms of technical support and maintenance in schools, it is an issue that needs to be addressed and will require much greater levels of funding in the future. Fortunately, like the telephones in the late 1970s, because we came a little late to the area, 60% of our computers are less than four years old. We do not have a serious problem as they are all multimedia computers with Pentium III processors upwards. We do not have a renewal and replacement crisis in this area.

Senator Minihan spoke about Internet safety. I hope the answers already provided suffice. We will want 100% of schools to have a proper and explicit statement on Internet safety. I spoke earlier of how far ICT will influence and can be used opportunistically to change the whole notion of learning and to enhance it. It depends on teacher training, changing old habits and, to a certain extent, on a little piece of inertia. It certainly depends on the backwash effect of our examination system and what counts for assessment nowadays. The NCCA had a web survey and many parents would have commented on it. It was quite surprising the number of people who said we must change and reform the leaving certificate. What they were saying was that the whole notion of assessing people's learning and educational attainment needed to be reformed.

Deputy Gogarty spoke on disadvantaged areas. I agree that it is not sufficient to simply provide higher levels of technology in disadvantaged areas. One needs other supports such as pre-introductory courses to provide people with that extra level of confidence. The way to do this is to work with all the other issues. There is a plethora of initiatives coming into disadvantaged schools and it is a question of co-ordinating much of this. There are quite a number of specific assistants, help and aids in disadvantaged schools. It really is a question of local co-ordination of that kind of activity.

However, as far as we are concerned, we want to ensure there is a higher than average level of technology, facility and of teacher training in that area. We are happy to consider providing extra training at the level about which the Deputy is talking. I understand what the Deputy is saying about the wired for learning programme. It was a unique project but we do not intend to implement it. Much of the technology and software is now slightly different. We learned a huge amount from the programme. It was also an important and useful programme for getting schools to talk to each other.

Many people, including Deputy Stanton, spoke about purchasing computers. Up to 1997, some of the technology equipment was simply left in boxes. I am convinced there are schools that have Apple II E computers still in boxes - worth a fortune for purely historical reasons. There was an element of schools having to psychologically buy into a system. We also had to face the fact that schools are independent institutions, with the exception of the VEC system. Every single school is independent, with its own board of management. The view was correctly taken that if one gives funding to a school, and provides all the proper advice, support and procedures, the school can make the best decision as to what to purchase.

Much of the technology and hardware were also bought locally. Currently, it is very hard to beat one particular supplier of technology, but at that time it was not so simple. There were lots of local providers, and the idea was to maximise local business opportunities or other supports. A lot of the €35 million I spoke about in terms of industry support was local commercial support or add-on support.

The Department is now considering this matter and it would be our advice that the situation is changed, with a certain common level of technology and hardware in schools. It might now be much easier to focus on particular areas where a suite of equipment or facilities would be required. There is a willingness to do this. The purchasing issue will be looked at in the future and the Northern Ireland method of bulk purchasing will be considered.

ScoilNet, which was referred to by Mr. O'Byrne, has a long way to go. It is only beginning. It needs enormous resources in terms of people. It will be linked with a virtual learning environment of some kind which hopefully will provide the facilities and services needed. We have to get teachers on training courses and get them all the materials they need to develop the system, from classroom notes to teaching aids. We will all have to share that. ScoilNet will have to be a compository of information activity, of teaching supports and materials which we cannot provide at the head end. Because it involves such vast activity, that can only be provided by all the users. Only then will one will have critical mass and a seriously engaging organic medium and facility. There is a huge amount of work to be completed in that area.

Deputy Hoctor spoke about set times for school hours relating to IT, mentioning SIP in particular, and the notion of taking on board good classroom practice on the ground locally. That is a most important point. With Dr. Conor Galvin of UCD, we are currently completing a major evaluation of the SIP initiative which will look at this as a model of supporting local commerce. SIP was a bottom-up approach. Teachers and schools came up with ideas for innovative practice in their subject areas. That was one of the strengths of SIP. All we did was co-ordinate it, group together schools which had similar ideas and support it in terms of equipment, teacher time, project management skills and so on.

We have just completed a major survey not just of SIP but of all the teachers in all the schools involved with SIP and of the local education centres. We hope to have something to say about that in early autumn. That feedback will go to all the schools but more importantly will be taken on board in terms of how we can support innovative practice in the future. We hope that out of that will come at least 15 to 20 really excellent models of practice in the use of ICT in schools. We intend to roadshow those, so to speak, around Ireland. The Deputy is correct too about the Tim Brophy project, which will be included.

Deputy Stanton made some observations about purchasing in Northern Ireland and also spoke of the funding there of over €200 million. That was part of the UK lottery money, and naturally represents more money than we have available for such funding in the Republic. The Northern Ireland authorities made a decision from the very first day in 1998 to go ahead with a bulk purchase arrangement. They went for some sort of partnership approach. For all the reasons I have outlined, we did not do that.

In a way, however, we got schools started much faster. We got them motivated and informed. We got schools to engage with us. Because there was a cheque coming in the post, they were engaging. Throughout 1998 and 1999, we had a lot more equipment, engagement and serious activity in schools. Northern Ireland took three years to negotiate a deal which in effect fell through, and only finally came into effect last year. Three years were tied up in massive amounts of Official Journal activity and high end administration while we in the Republic were actively engaging our teachers. It is hard to believe that 24,000 teachers in the Republic took appropriate training in 1999. In Northern Ireland at that stage, they had not even thought about training. We were up and running much faster, with much more engagement and activity on the ground. I am not saying this is the best way from here on, but we made the right decision at that stage.

When Deputy Stanton spoke about on-line curriculum, school based innovation, conferencing and web publishing, what he defined was what should be the content of ScoilNet in the future. That is where we are looking now, and it is within our framework, tied into a whole virtual learning environment for more self-directed learning at home and everywhere else.

I am not fully sure if it was Deputy Stanton who spoke about satellites and wireless technology. If we went out with a big cheque for €35 million or €40 million tomorrow morning, the only people we would talk to would be the satellite service providers. Unfortunately, we have not got a wide area or even a local area with a wireless system in place, so one would have to have a satellite dish in every school in the country. That would be cheap. A Sky satellite dish costs only €100. One could not beam the signal to central radio because there is no wireless set-up locally at this stage. It could be established, but it is not currently there.

In relation to copyright, we would have worked very closely with all the copyright companies. My colleague, Ms White, would have worked very closely with Microsoft; we have deals in place with Microsoft. One will never get a wonderfully cheap deal from Microsoft; one can merely put a schools arrangement in place. We have such an arrangement whereby teachers, whether they use it at home or at work, can avail of a special renewal and replacement deal which has automatic updates every year for - how much?

It varies. The average cost for an office programme would be €50, for Office Professional. That is a leasing agreement, for one user. It is not ownership.

The cost is €50 a year, per user, plus upgrades?

That includes the upgrades.

Schools and teachers can have it. It is not easy to conclude a wonderful deal. We have talked to all the major software publishers in the UK and Ireland. We have arrangements in place, but there is more work to be done in the area.

Regarding school networking, to which people have alluded, a broadband study has just been completed. I did not know the Minister had commented on it, so he obviously has it at this stage. I presume that study will allow for ways at looking at a school's network. Perhaps it is time we had a national network. At that stage one can have central filtering up to a point, but we all know that no matter what amount of firewalling and filtration one does, one will not eliminate access by ingenious young users in schools. A lot of filtering will certainly take place. The issue of access to pornographic material for example is all about local awareness. It is not about policy but about implementation of the policy. This is where the information given to parents and children is important, in order for them to acquire a morality and a self-discipline in the area.

Our laptop initiative, and a project whereby people with cystic fibrosis are using ICT at home for main learning but chiefly for computer skills, are the only two outreach non-classroom based activities we have. There is obviously more we can do, but at this stage we have not got the funding.

Senator Fitzgerald spoke about some of these issues and talked about the barriers and opportunities at third level. The teacher training colleges have taken on ICT and are doing good work. St. Patrick's College in Drumcondra is doing superb work and has some excellent people there. There is ground breaking research going on between people there and Medialab Europe into new approaches towards liberating learning, as it were - which is the title of one of the projects. Combined with what the NCCA is doing in terms of curricular review and subject renewal, where ICT is part of the pedagogy of mediating and implementing the curriculum, there is much good work being done. One hopes the third level colleges will not cut back on that, but I see no such indication. I hope too that their levels of technology for their students will be maintained or raised.

ICT can and will enhance educational achievement in disadvantaged areas. That is why I supplied details of the Liberties project. It is only one project, but the Liberties initiative is important for this reason - if we can motivate children to come to school and learn there, they will achieve something in school. We are at rock bottom and the only thing we can do is advance. It is a question of measuring to what extent ICT is instrumental in doing that. That is why it is such an important project. It is also important because it involves the whole community, as noted by Deputy Andrews. All the community representative organisations, partnership boards and parents are fully behind it. The Hewlett Packard digital community initiative has equipped several of the flats in the area with equipment. Parents and the community are supporting that and we are providing the training and the mediation.

Senator Phelan spoke about the safety issue, about the 61% of primary school students who are using the Internet safely. We will work towards improving on that figure. I hope I have already answered his question about the demands for ICT.

I agree with the point made about the principals' role. There are principals who might not be, or were not at the time, supportive of ICT, but that has probably changed. When it comes to ICT, the most influential people in the school are the principals. They have the discretion and the power to place an emphasis on this issue and support training and so on. Last year we held educational seminars throughout the country for all principals, primary and post-primary. We had an information pack about how to use ICT in schools and how to plan for ICT as a central element. Some 98% of principals attended that full-day workshop. That initiative was taken on the basis that these were the most influential people, the people who had be to brought on board.

Regarding timetabling of hours for ICT, everyone speaks about the curriculum being overcrowded at primary and post-primary levels. I do not envisage the timetabling of ICT hours at primary level, though I expect that at the end of the primary cycle there will be some assessment. I hate talking about assessment in primary schools. Nevertheless, as ICT becomes more essential, some teacher somewhere in the future will have to put a tick on a sheet to say that his or her pupils have attained certain competencies. A more concentrated and formal version of that will have to happen in post-primary schools.

I do not know if ICT will become a subject. Of course it cannot be called ICT. If we consider the power of the CAO and the examinations, it will have to involve a massive body of information otherwise points will not be allotted to it. That is a big issue. It may be that in bringing that about we are destroying the very subject we are proposing. That is the dilemma. In the UK there is a subject called computer science, with perhaps 40,000 or 50,000 children studying it. Industry encourages this, but educationally, is it the best way? I am not sure. They have the same subject in Scandinavia where a study has been done which has shown that it marginally demotivates second level students from going on to take IT related courses at third level.

Having computer science as a subject at post-primary level is not the clear answer. What is essential is that we have ICT integrated throughout the programme in terms of teaching, but also that there is a more formal test of ICT skills. It is much easier to plateau. We all talk about young children having great computer skills, but that is a bland statement. All children have a certain level of computer skill but the skills can plateau at a very low level. The real skill of using technology is to use it in a very intelligent way to enhance one's learning. To maximise that, one needs a whole range of other sophisticated high level skills. These have to be taught or provided through classroom experiences.

ICT has to be dealt with more formally at post-primary level. I am not saying it should be a subject, because there are too many issues involved there. It has to be more formally assessed and we have to be able to ensure - not for the sake of points - that our children are graduating from post-primary level with the appropriate level of ICT ability.

The Chairman is right in suggesting that ICT could be a barrier rather than a help. ICT will not be taken on board if we do not provide the broadband connectivity along with many more computers in classrooms, especially in the science area, and if we do not continue to provide training for teachers. The teachers have done enormous work. We have provided over 87,000 training places in the last four years, each involving ten or 20 hours. These courses were all taken in the teachers' own time. In Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK, there is a payment of about £600 made to teachers who take the 20 hour training course because teachers there will take the courses only in school time. Private companies are providing those courses.

We provided training to the teachers for about €140 per course. Teachers all over the country attended in their own free time, in the evenings and at weekends, and continue to do so. Sometimes that fact is ignored. There is massive buy-in to ICT skills by the teachers of Ireland. Our next phase has to be to provide the proper infrastructure in the classrooms so that ICT can be used effectively and easily and, instead of being a barrier, it will become another innovative tool in the classroom.

I know of the project in Ennis. We have been talking to people about how to support another project. I am also aware of the Leader study about the rest of Clare, and there is some useful information there. The business of being shy and less skilled is probably covered already. We must formalise more to ensure that is addressed.

I apologise for bypassing the question of whether primary schools should have computers in computer rooms. I am not in favour of that for the practical reason that most primary schools have not got a spare room. Educationally, if we are talking about seamless integration and putting little groups of kids at computers, taking them away, going and coming back, one needs to have computers in the classroom. It is no use shoving them away someplace where it becomes almost like an expedition or an occasion to access them. In the future when we all have broadband in the kitchens - and I know everyone here cooks - and call up a menu, the computer will be on all the time. It will not have to be cranked up. I believe that is what we have to do in classrooms.

I want to be associated with the remarks made about the teachers giving so much of their free time. I am aware of what very many of them have done and it is to be applauded and lauded. I have three brief questions. I know Mr. Morrissey has not seen the report, but the Minister is said to be determined that broadband will be delivered to every school - and that it will happen next year. Mr. Morrissey's initial remarks have indicated that that is not physically possible. Could he give us a timescale as to when he believes every school in the country might have broadband access? I agree with him that while ISDN is useful it cannot compete with broadband for speed and content, etc. The other question I asked earlier was about NCT funding and staffing levels. Perhaps he could give the committee some information about that and also its role, if any, with regard to the provision of grant aid to schools for the purchase of hardware. If it does not do that, who actually does? This is something I should like to know.

I apologise to Deputy Stanton for missing his question. The NCT has not got a budget for hardware - or for the support of hardware - in the schools. The capital budget is controlled by the Department of Education and Science. Obviously we have influence and make recommendations, etc., but the capital budget allocated every year up to the present is sent directly by the Department of Education and Science to each school. It puts the emphasis on special needs, as was said. My centre has a current budget of about €7 million. It funds all the teacher training. The 20 ICT advisers around the country, one in each of the education centres, are funded by us and we work very closely with them. We have about 19 staff in the centre. We have to fund ScoilNet and its development out of that budget. We are major supporters in terms of developing websites for voluntary groups involved in education as well as various associations involving teachers of particular subjects. We host ScoilNet and our own NCT site, etc.; we support all the special needs activities, all the teacher training courses and the development of those; we fund all the software purchases and we are developing software libraries in all the education centres. We fund all that, as well as the licensing for all the software projects. In addition, we fund a huge amount of innovatory projects that I have not covered here.

And the broadband?

Mr. Morissey

Broadband is really a function of the telecommunication companies, the telcos. Obviously there is no way we can have broadband in the schools by next September; it physically will not be available for September 2003. That would be absolutely impossible. As to how long it would take, that is really a function of how quickly people such as Eircom can make it available. That is my honest view. I believe wireless can be implemented within the space of three to five months, but lease lines at €3,000 or €4,000 a go - when they are only a third of that price in most other countries - is a major issue.

Is there a danger that primary or even second level schools in remoter areas could have a problem with regard to their not getting access to broadband at all, even in the long-term? With the roll out, I believe the recipient has to be within two miles of an exchange to avail of it. Even with the radio situation there is a problem. Is satellite the only answer in such cases?

I think you are absolutely right, it is. We have just funded a project in Donegal and another in Mayo, around satellite - and they are proving to be most effective. We have funded one with the European Space Agency in Donegal which has been totally successful. I think satellite will be the only option for marginalised and island communities.

I have one supplemental question - for Mr. O'Byrne. First, are you aware of a website called www.schoolbookexchange.ie? The person behind that has approached the Minister for Education and Science or his Department for funding. I want to know whether there is a link to this website on ScoilNet and if not, would there any objection to such a link? It would mean a further continuance of Internet usage and enable pupils to exchange school books. As we know, in disadvantaged or indeed any area the cost of buying books is prohibitive in some cases. In principle, would there be a problem in providing a link to this website on ScoilNet? If not, I could perhaps get the person involved to contact Mr. O’Byrne.

Mr. O’Byrne

I have not heard of the website. In principle we would have no objection. Obviously there are set criteria we adhere to with regard to the sites to which we are linked. We do not link, necessarily, to sites of a commercial nature. If it was useful and enhanced usage of the Internet for the audiences we support, we would be interested.

Excellent. Thank you very much, Mr. Morrissey and Mr. O'Byrne.

Chairman, if I could make one more comment? The Department of Education and Science is currently developing a new ICT policy in education because our existing policy runs out in December. I understand the new policy will be available in the autumn. Obviously we have made and will make further inputs into that. We are hoping that when it is approved the Department of Finance will fund it.

You asked about text messaging. The completely unpredictable application of technology which even the gurus in Microsoft could not anticipate, simply indicates to me that we had better come to grips with the notion of digital literacy, which is no longer about the construction of wonderfully constructed Latinised sentences, with proper spelling. I believe we are seeing the early stage of the entire visualisation of how people communicate. It is abbreviated and cryptic and phonetic in many senses. I believe the next phase will be the phone with the photograph. We will all become almost muted people in the future.

Whatever about spelling that is a most imaginative précis. Thanks very much to all three of you. It has been really informative. Thanks for attending and the help you have given the committee.

If the members have no objection, we might have a very brief return to private session.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.40 p.m.sine die.
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