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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE debate -
Thursday, 22 Apr 2004

Academic Research: Presentation.

Today's meeting is with representatives of the Department of Education and Science and Science Foundation Ireland. The meeting has been convened to discuss developments in the area of investment in academic research in the education sector and related issues. I welcome Dr. Patrick Fottrell, chairman of Science Foundation Ireland; Dr. William Harris, director general; Mr. Mattie McCabe, director of corporate affairs; Mr. Seán Murphy, who is responsible for communications and PR; Dr. Eucharia Meehan, director of research at the Higher Education Authority; and Mr. Kevin McCarthy, principal officer, higher education division, Department of Education and Science. We look forward to discussing those issues.

Attention is drawn to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, this same privilege does not apply to our witnesses - they have a qualified privilege. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make that official identifiable.

I now invite Dr. Fottrell, the chairperson of Science Foundation Ireland, to say a few words. I understand that Dr. Harris will then make the presentation.

Dr. Patrick Fottrell

On behalf of Science Foundation Ireland, I thank the members for their kind invitation. This is the first meeting that we have had with this committee, and we look forward to it very much. I was appointed chairperson of Science Foundation Ireland when it was established as a statutory body last July. It was a great honour and privilege. Before then, I was president of NUI Galway for several years and had been on the staff of the university for a number of years. Science Foundation Ireland, through its investment, has already begun the process of branding Ireland as an attractive location to carry out research and development. Dr. Harris will expand on that shortly.

Dr. Harris may not be that well known and with the Chairman's approval, I will say a few words about him. He is from the United States, and his career includes service in the National Science Foundation, a major body in the US on which we are modelling Science Foundation Ireland. He had 12 years' experience there, where he was involved at a very high level, allocating in the region of $750 million per annum for research projects. He was also vice president of research at the University of South Carolina and was responsible for some extraordinary and innovative developments there.

The board of Science Foundation Ireland is privileged and honoured to have Dr. Harris as our director general. Members will see that he has done a quite outstanding job for Science Foundation Ireland and the country since becoming director general. I am also joined by Mr. Mattie McCabe, who is the director for corporate affairs, and Seán Murphy, who is our press officer.

Dr. William Harris

It is a pleasure to be here. I will add one thing to what Dr. Fottrell mentioned. The reason that he is happy that I am here is that my grandparents are from Galway. Those roots help form a bond.

I will tell members a little about what we are doing and where we have come in the last two years. I have prepared for them a two-page summary. I will not go through it now, rather I will talk through some of the slides that I have left for members to keep me on track and on time. Everyone will know that Science Foundation Ireland grew out of the technology foresight fund. Last July, the legislation was signed to make Science Foundation Ireland an official body in Ireland. During that process, I was especially pleased to have the privilege of meeting all the political parties and their leaderships. I was both proud of and pleased at the endorsement of Science Foundation Ireland as a concept and encouraged during the debate by the desire of various Deputies and Senators to build a real science foundation for Ireland. I am committed to doing that and to broadening the mandate to bring the excellence that the name has brought to the United States.

Initially we are investing in the fields that underpin the biotechnology and ICT sectors in which Ireland has such a strong advantage. However, over the past year, we have been given the responsibility for the basic research grants programme previously led by Enterprise Ireland in partnership with the HEA. This sub-programme will give us the opportunity to re-examine the investment in science, mathematics, the environment, climate change and geology. We will be considering new ways to connect with other investments that Ireland is making through the Marine Institute and the Geological Survey of Ireland. We have already begun such conversations.

I believe that mathematics is critically important to all areas of science, and we must examine ways to strengthen its position in Ireland in order that it can also support other areas. The Science Foundation Ireland board is international and has 12 members. It is one of the best boards with which I have been associated. It has individuals who are recognised for their achievements in science and engineering in the United States, in particular, and the UK. Those people know well what is needed to create excellence and a brand of excellence in Ireland. Their commitment to and service on behalf of Ireland is very impressive.

Everyone here will know that when Science Foundation Ireland makes an investment, it is really an investment in people. We are building the human capital over the next generation of ideas, companies and university leaders. The secret to the success of the US economy over the last 50 years has been the investment that the National Science Foundation in particular, and perhaps the National Institutes of Health, has made in the university system through a competitive grants system. It found a way to have universities distinguish themselves on the basis of quality and competition. We found - I think that we have found the same in Ireland and elsewhere - that it is very difficult to measure the quality of a university or college. They hardly ever want to be measured directly, and it turns out that competitive research grants generally find a mechanism and way to do that. One finds that institutions with success in competitive research grants for science, engineering and medicine tend to be those that also have outstanding arts, humanities and culture on their campuses. Those things seem to go together. We have a mechanism based on international peer review. That means that those individuals must compete in the global environment with the best and most current ideas and on time. Competition is judged in the same way as a business plan.

The way that one builds the university system to be truly significant and advance the education system for students is to have top-quality researchers and begin to get the students involved in lifelong learning in the laboratory as they go through there. One must create a culture and partnership and break down some of the walls that separate the university community from society at large. At a recent conversation with the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, we advanced a series of conversations examining issues connected with the schools system, with students losing interest in science, and what we might be able to do to work with the Minister and others to advance that. We intend following up those conversations. I found the meeting incredibly constructive and helpful, and there are things that we can and should be doing to look at Ireland in a new way.

I have said in speeches how very important it is that Ireland be fast, focused and flexible. If Ireland builds up a bureaucracy and becomes slow in how it responds to business and educational opportunities, it will have a difficult time competing in the world of the 21st century. In this regard, Ireland's key advantage is its size. People say it is too small. I say that is not right. Smallness is what makes it able to do things that other countries cannot. The effectiveness of the Government system and Departments working together will make that happen as well.

We have to ensure we look at some of the issues that are causing problems in the school system, making students turn off. That is crucial because people are the most important product and the key for the future. We want to brand Ireland, the way Inter-Set has branded the United States research enterprise, as excellent. If one gets an Inter-Set grant in the United States one knows one has achieved something - and so does one's colleagues. One might get a grant from a department in the US and that is appreciated, but the Inter-Set grant is the badge of accomplishment and true excellence. We want to get that type of brand here because we believe it will complement what is going on with the multinationals as well as distinguishing Ireland on the world scene.

It is early days yet. Two years is an early time in terms of building a research culture out of what is primarily a teaching system. However, a couple of events over the past year are encouraging indicators that the progress being made is good and that our vector is correct. Last year I was invited to speak at the Royal Society and to talk about what Ireland was doing in research and how effectively. A week or two later I was invited to speak to a UK parliamentary committee because we had attracted to Ireland probably the best photonics group in the world from the Cambridge area. The entire team had moved to Cork and the UK parliamentary group could not believe that. It had a hearing that I chose not to attend. My colleague, Alistair Glass, who runs the ICT side, attended in my place. He had grown up in London and he went back to tell them some of their problems. The title of his talk, as given him by the UK Parliament was: "What can the UK learn from Ireland about research?" I told Dr. Fottrell of this. People were shocked. They did not think they would ever hear that kind of comment. We have got attention within a short time.

That simple move of this group of people - Dave Carter and his crew - to Cork resulted in an article in the Financial Times, noting that what Ireland was doing was unique. It resulted in an article in Time magazine, which members of the committee may have seen, about the 400,000 European researchers who have moved to the US. Ireland stood out as a place they are starting to come back to. One will see a few other articles in the near future which will indicate there is a turnaround and people are returning to Ireland. The way this is done is through investment in the best people and ideas. The key is to ensure an environment is created that is science-friendly and scientist-friendly. One never backs off on the issue of quality and the need to focus on excellence. If we do that Ireland will be given a unique branding and we will truly attract world class talent.

We have some structural problems in the university system that I would like to talk about at some time in the future. At the high end we are not able to compete as well as we should with the UK or the US because of salary structures, the way appointments are made and matters like that. I do not want to go into that today but I want to highlight an issue and a problem that needs to be addressed to enable us to compete with Cambridge, Harvard and places like that. I believe we should compete with them. It is important to know we are recruiting back to Ireland some distinguished people. Top medical researcher Dr. Dolores Cahill returned from Germany. She ran a Max Planck Institute proteomics programme. Her employers did not believe she would leave to return to Ireland. She did. Dr. Tim O'Brien, who had grown up in Cork, left a major medical facility in the United States to come back to Galway. They did not think he would leave the US to come back. He has done so. I could tell the committee of other similar stories.

To begin to address the pipeline issues, we started a programme by working with the Science Teachers Association over the past year. I went around the country with Dr. Fottrell and other people and talked to teachers, students, local business people and politicians in different cities, about what SFI was trying to do, the investment strategy for Ireland's future and how we might do this together. One of the things I learned was that often teachers, on getting their degrees in college, become disconnected for 20 years or more as science changes. These are proud and smart people, but they have been disconnected. I asked if it would be possible for us to put them in touch with researchers in universities and got them into laboratories in the summer. I thought it was a simple idea, but the endorsement of it was incredibly profound. I talked to the university professors we funded who already had been reviewed and they thought it was a great idea. In about a week's time we will be announcing the funding of some 30 teachers this summer, to bring them into the laboratories where they will meet some of the best researchers in Ireland. They will be there all summer. Next summer they might bring some of their more precocious students with them. They will be able to bring that information to the schoolroom. They can phone if they have a problem and get help and they may get in touch by e-mail as well. There is good resonance there. The Department of Education and Science has strongly endorsed and helped us in this process. We hope to build on this programme in the future, assuming it is successful. We want to start out with a pilot study of about 30 or 40 teachers this year.

IBEC has expressed a strong interest in the programme. It believes it would be good to get teachers connected again. My argument is simple: biology has changed enormously in the last 30 years. If one has not had the chance to participate in this, how can one teach it today? I also want to celebrate and value the importance of teaching. I know how important and critical it is and if we can get one teacher to influence 30 to 100 students, we will have made a huge transformation. I will be pleased to talk more to the committee about this and to have members meet some of the teachers. I am excited about what they will be doing. Some will be learning about web activities and about sensors. They will be taking sensors into the real world and bringing them back to the classroom to have the students involved in the process as well.

We plan to also bring some of the more precocious undergraduate students into the research laboratories this summer and to recruit international students to come to Ireland to get their PhDs. Only yesterday the President of Ireland agreed to name a new programme on behalf of the Office of the President, the young scholar's award. We will have ten rising stars of the Irish research university system who will be designated with the President of Ireland young researcher's award. It will be the most prestigious award we can make it. The award will be used to introduce a type of ten-year track competitive system into the universities.

The future involves us working more closely with IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland in terms of connecting things we do with industry. We have good examples, with Wyeth, HP, Intel etc. We will be announcing others over the next two or three weeks that will surprise and please members of the committee.

We were pleased to go to Europe about two weeks ago as part of a business summit. We have been asked by the European Union and Commission to begin to help them to design a basic research programme for Europe. They are beginning to use SFI as the model for creativity and innovation. Their framework programme is considered bureaucratic and is keeping Europe back. They will be visiting us in two weeks, I believe, to start to explore how SFI can help design programmes for the future of Europe. We will be pleased to help them.

The last slide is about a focus I take with me from my Inter-Set and university experience in the US. There we always had to focus on the bottom line. We had to ensure we did things efficiently. My commitment is to try to get as much money as possible into the hands of the researchers and the students so we can advance Ireland that way and not build up an administrative bureaucracy. We will do things fast, ourselves, and creatively. We will design a neat business environment which will be introduced into the universities within several weeks and we will reduce our bureaucracy on a regular basis, still maintaining high standard rules.

The last chart shows members the distribution of resources we now have in the university community. This is all based on international peer review. I do not believe we have yet reached the stage where one can say which university has reached the peak in terms of being the best. However, within two years this kind of information will tell, on the basis of competition, where the best research institutions are located. In my judgment they will also be the best institutions for education. The best researchers are going to want the best arts and humanities teachers.

We will at least be able to give the committee data, in order that the universities may be measured. We will be talking to the universities about how they use their overheads and measure their performances and putting in place and encouraging new systems. We have begun to talk to the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Dempsey, about that area as well, in terms of getting better performance for the taxpayer. I thank the Chairman for the privilege of being here.

This is a joint presentation on behalf of the Department of Education and Science and the Higher Education Authority. I am joined by Dr. Eucharia Meehan, director of research at the HEA. I have circulated a copy of my presentation and I hope members of the committee have it. I propose to take members through it briefly. The purpose is to give the committee an overview of the Department of Education and Science-supported research strands. The focus this morning is on the programme for research in third level institutions, PRTLI, and its impact. We have a particular focus in looking at the role of PRTLI in supporting other mission orientated research-funded efforts, especially in terms of the nature of its complementary role to SFI activities.

We are pleased to have been invited to appear before the committee in tandem with SFI. Our relationship with SFI is a good one. It is clearly important to SFI, also, as is evident from Dr. Harris's presentation.

I will give a brief overview of the research strands that the Department of Education and Science and its agencies are supporting. These are aimed largely at providing the core capacity and capability in the Irish higher education sector to allow research and development to be conducted, in other words, we are providing the people and the facilities that are the essential building blocks for the research system and on which the mission orientated research of Science Foundation Ireland, HRB and other agencies can grow and develop. An emphasis in our funding instruments has been in enabling and encouraging collaboration between institutions and disciplines in the conduct of research with a view to generating critical mass in areas of research. The funding activities listed on the first page of the circulated report are based on that general approach.

First on the list is the HEA block grant which is the institutional bedrock funding for research and teaching in universities. A significant element of that block grant supports research activities in our universities and would have been in place before 1998 when the first dedicated research programmes were put in place. In 2004, approximately €100 million from the block grant support to universities will be spent on research activities within the universities. It is clearly important. Given that the institutes of technology do not enjoy the bedrock funding that is available to the universities through the HEA block grant, a technological sector research programme is in place to support and strengthen the research capability of the institutes of technology and in 2003, some €7 million was provided for that.

I will deal with the Programme for Research in Third Level Institutions, PRTLI, in greater detail later. The Irish Research Council for Humanities and Social Sciences and the Irish Research Council for Science, Engineering and Technology were established in 2000 and 2001 and are providing funding for individual researchers and research projects and supporting excellence through the system in that way. Approximately €20 million was spent between the two in 2003.

The Department also supports research activities through two North-South collaborative programmes. The first provides support for collaborative research projects between institutions on the island of Ireland and the second is the Peace Two project which is aimed at contributing to peace and reconciliation on the island of Ireland. A sum of €2.1 million has been allocated to the first of those strands, collaborative research, in 2003 and €4 million has been allocated over a period of two and a half years for the Peace Two initiative.

I will now focus on the programme for research in third level institutions, the PRTLI, which is the major strand in terms of scale of research activity and funding that is being supported by the Department. The PRTLI is aimed at enhancing institutional research strategies and providing the capacity and critical mass within the system which lays the foundation for the research funding efforts of the other agencies. Prior to 1998, when the Government launched the PRTLI, research and development in Ireland would have been characterised by an opportunistic approach to research activity. A HEA report in 1996 considered the issue of research and development and noted in particular the low level of funding and the opportunistic approach that was being driven by the availability of funds rather than a broader strategic intent. The potential for developing critical mass in our research system was very low and the potential for promoting institutional co-operation, both in Ireland and internationally, was also low. The PRTLI was aimed at addressing some of those themes, in particular enabling a more strategic approach at institutional level, encouraging explicit institutional planning and prioritisation and promoting inter-institutional co-operation and inter-disciplinarity within the third level system.

There have been three cycles under the programme to date and some €605 million has been allocated to the third level institutions under the them. The call for proposals is competitive and some of the criteria that Dr. Bill Harris has referred to in terms of SFI funding applies, such as the basic requirement for excellence, which is measured under three main criteria, strategic planning, which includes inter-institutional collaboration, the quality of the research proposals and the impact of the research strategy and programmes in improving the quality of teaching and learning in the proposing institution. These are the key elements. In addition to the Exchequer contribution, there has been significant private philanthropic contributions to the programme to date and that has been extremely important in getting the programme up and running and in getting wider political support for it.

The programme has had a very significant impact since its introduction in 1998 on the research and innovation landscape. This can be considered under a number of headings. First, with regard to infrastructure, 15 third level institutions, including six institutes of technology, have benefited from research funding under the PRTLI. There have been a total of 33 research centres approved under the three cycles to date and a number of those have been completed. In total 90,000 sq. m., of new research space has been created in the sector. I will not list the research centres that have completed to date but I would draw the attention of members to the HEA publication which has been circulated and which in greater detail illustrates the nature and scale of activities underway and associated with each of the research centres.

The impact on human capital has been extremely significant. A key element of the PRTLI proposals that have been approved under the three cycles has been the provision of postgraduate and postdoctoral research posts. It has had a significant impact in opening up opportunities for researchers and the development of research careers within the Irish system. Almost 1,400 research posts at postgraduate and postdoctoral level have been funded through the PRTLI to date. This has also encouraged a significant number of non-national researchers to come into the system and opened up opportunities for Irish researchers, who would otherwise have had to go abroad to pursue research careers or for others to return to Ireland to pursue research careers, having spent time abroad.

Third, the growth of research collaboration and the growth of inter-institutional collaboration generally has been one of the major benefits of PRTLI. Forty new inter-institutional programmes or initiatives have been established under PRTLI and a very good example is the collaboration between UCD, Trinity College and Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland in the development of the programme for human genomics under cycle Three. The Dublin Molecular Medicine Centre had previously been established between the Conway Institute in UCD and TCD's institute for molecular medicine under Cycle Two. The significance of bringing three major higher education institutions of that status together in Dublin to develop what will hopefully be a world class programme for human genomics is extremely significant in providing capacity to support wider national strategic efforts, in particular those being pursued by SFI in the area of biotechnology. It is a good illustration of where PRTLI can create capacity within the system that can benefit other research providers and activities.

In terms of the research output, over 4,000 peer review publications have been published to date arising from PRTLI funded programmes, 62 new and expanded research programmes have been put in place. In addition to the inter-institutional collaboration, the growth of interdisciplinary research has been a key spin-off benefit from the PRTLI programme in the sense that it has been incentivised in a major way and to an extent that was never possible before PRTLI was in place. The link to the quality of teaching and learning within the higher education institutions is another very important benefit and aspect of the PRTLI approach. A key component of the programme is the requirement that the research and its outputs enhance the quality of teaching and learning for undergraduates and postgraduates in third level institutions so that synergy between research and education are established and strengthened in the formation of human capital. The research efforts supported by PRTLI are embedded in the education process. In addition to the numerous new modules, listed on the circulated document, enhanced and updated course material is being incorporated into existing courses as a result of PRTLI research outputs.

Regarding other qualitative outcomes, the focus and requirement for an institutional strategy has placed a premium on institutional leadership to best position the institutions for success. The institutions have responded through strengthened leadership and this has in turn had a spillover effect, enhancing a strategic approach to other key aspects of institutional operations. The concept of competition as a basis for funding allocation is now accepted and this is also an important benefit. A full impact assessment of the PRTLI, again using international experts, is now underway. Results of the assessment will be available by the summer.

I want to focus on the interconnection of PRTLI with the other research funding programmes. PRTLI is facilitating and enabling investments from other sources. There are a number of examples of this in the report which I have circulated to members of the committee. With regard to SFI funded activities and its mission orientated focus in the areas of biotechnology and ICT, the recent development of the five centres for science, engineering and technology is a good illustration of PRTLI and SFI funding complementing one another. Three of the five CSETs supported by SFI have grown from PRTLI funded centres.

There are a large number of individuals with SFI investigator funding now based in PRTLI funded centres and institutes. Some of these individuals were attracted back to Ireland by PRTLI investment. They are now in a position attract awards from SFI and other European research funds. It has, therefore, had a major impact in laying the foundation in terms of the capacity and capability within the Irish system from which other research funds can benefit and develop. The report circulated includes a graphic to illustrate the interconnectedness of the various research programmes. Through the PRTLI and SFI, we are developing a system where there are mutually supporting goals and synergies developed through the various research funding strands.

The introduction of the PRTLI has had a transforming effect on the Irish research landscape given the fact that there was no dedicated funding for research and development in higher education institutions before 1998. That transformation has been effected by the institutions themselves, often taking difficult decisions, to develop and implement focused and prioritised research strategies. The incentives and signals built into the PRTLI funding framework have been important in achieving this. The capacity of the higher education system to support and facilitate the key strategic research funding efforts being pursued by the Government is of major importance.

The net outcome for Ireland through the activities of PRTLI, SFI, the two research councils and the other strands, is a strong statement of strategic intent that supports efforts to attract the very best international researchers here as we aim for success in the knowledge age.

I have a number of questions and comments for all the speakers. I wish to deal with the slump in the numbers studying science, particularly the fall in the numbers taking physical and life sciences at third level. I am concerned that while the numbers taking mathematics have not fallen, they have not been high in the first place. Does the Department have a plan to try to reverse this in the next few years? Participation in science subjects at the second level senior cycle is a worrying trend. About 14% of students are taking physics and chemistry at the moment. How can that be reversed? I know that the junior certificate syllabus has changed and that science has also been introduced at primary school level.

Dr. Harris mentioned the upskilling of teachers. Primary teachers were given three days in-service for the implementation of the primary science programme. We should consider that when the vast majority of primary teachers were undergoing training, science would not have been on their curriculum at all. Three days in-service to deal with a new concept seems to be very little. Is that something that needs to be addressed? The level of in-service changes for the implementation of the junior certificate science syllabus seems small, considering that we went from a theoretical syllabus to a syllabus that now has 39 mandatory experiments. There are still concerns with the facilities in schools. I visited a school last week that availed of the grant so that it could improve its facilities, but the amount was small. It is a long time since I have seen such an antiquated classroom as the one in which science was taught in that school. How can we deal with this issue?

Neither presentation mentioned the task force on the physical sciences and its implementation. I know that four of the 39 recommendations were not in the education sector, but partial progress has been made on 19, work has initiated on six and no progress has been made on the remaining ten. Could the witnesses comment on this? There was an initiative in 2000-03 to provide all classrooms with computers and to improve the pupil-computer ratio. I welcome the announcement that all schools will have broadband by the end of the year. However, I am sceptical about that because not all towns and villages have broadband. The initiative ended in 2003 and has not been continued. While some schools argue that while the ratio is low, the practicality and implementation means that, in reality, the situation is not great.

The SFI document referred to building on the tradition of entrepreneurship. We had a presentation last year on entrepreneurship in second level schools and how to build and foster that spirit. Are the witnesses concerned at the lack of entrepreneurship at the moment or is that a fair judgment? Is it being fostered well within the school system or are changes necessary? The group who made the presentation felt strongly that there were changes which could be made.

I recently met members of the further education sector because of issues in terms of cuts and so on. They argue that the further education sector is able to adapt quickly to economic needs and changes. I do not see education as a commodity but I accept that we must be able to react, and that is the primary purpose of what Science Foundation Ireland is about. Is the university sector able to adapt quickly enough to the changes and needs? What is Science Foundation Ireland's role in facilitating that?

There is much discussion about possible future privatisation of universities. Reference was made to competing with the likes of Harvard and Oxford. Will the present university system funded only by Government be able to compete with such universities or do we need to seriously change our system to do that? I will understand if the group considers it should not comment on this.

My question about recruiting international students also relates to recruiting lecturers and professors for universities. People in the university sector have expressed a concern that they are finding it difficult to recruit or maintain lecturers because of the pay available to them in other countries. Does Science Foundation Ireland see that as an issue? Is there a big issue in term of Irish students leaving to go elsewhere for training in the science area? Is Ireland their first choice? If not, what can we do to address that?

I spoke to a fluid engineer working in the UK who is trying to come to Ireland to obtain employment and finds that it is difficult to get into the sector. It is a sector in which we are not strong, even though it is in the health care area in which Ireland is strongly involved. He works in the research end of the sector and finds it difficult to access the right channels to set up a business here. He would not be in the position of employing a large number of people as the business would be small scale. He is not looking for grants but finds it difficult to set up a business of that nature in Ireland. Does Science Foundation Ireland have a role in areas like that? I know SFI is not like the IDA and I am not aware that SFI gives grants to people setting up businesses. While SFI is more involved in another area, I ask its representatives to also address that general issue.

I join Deputy Enright in welcoming everybody here this morning. I find dealing with the sciences informative, perhaps because I am less informed about these issues than I should be. I thank the groups for the presentation. I will ask a few questions and develop one or two of the questions raised by Deputy Enright.

The most emphasised issue concerns the development of greater flexibility within the system. Science Foundation Ireland, particularly Dr. Harris, has presented a positive picture of what is happening currently and we want to ensure that we get rid of the blockages to the work SFI is trying to achieve. What specifically do both groups who presented to us consider we need to do to develop the kind of flexibility about which they spoke in terms of attracting the best researchers and getting rid of the bureaucracy? I was impressed by what they said about spending the money on the researchers rather than on the bureaucrats. If we can crack that and get rid of as much bureaucracy as possible in terms of facilitating research, then we will be doing good work. What are the obstacles that these groups encounter?

On the question, raised by Deputy Enright, about attracting top researchers and the point raised by the Higher Education Authority that we might need to privatise or offer the possibility of privatisation to some of our third level institutions, my party and I would be totally opposed to that because we do not want to see a two-tier public-private system. What needs to be changed within the public system that would facilitate attracting these people? What flexibility, such as on the issue of pay, does one need to give to third level institutions to attract top class people? From what Dr. Harris said, even within the current system the groups present seem to be able to make a deal of progress, both in bringing good people back to Ireland and in attracting people here. What do they see as necessary to develop that and what do the third level institutions see as necessary to be able to bring back that kind of development?

A delegation from the OECD group investigating third level education in Ireland recently appeared before the committee. When we had asked our questions, members of the delegation stated that they considered there was a particular problem because of the different roles played by the two main Departments concerned, the Departments of Education and Science and Enterprise, Trade and Employment, and that there was a need for more interaction between them. This problem became apparent when third level funding was halted last year when the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment seemed to be putting money into science research and the Department of Education and Science seemed to be stopping it. How does the delegation see us addressing that issue of more interdepartmental co-operation?

The delegation raised the issue of co-operation with IDA Ireland and, at the other level, with the science teachers' association. Can the Department of Education and Science provide an undertaking that there will not be a stop to the funding to which I have referred? Perhaps the officials cannot do so and it is the Minister we must ask. We were told that there was much damage done at the time when PRTLI funding was stopped. I acknowledge it has been restarted. There is a need to give some undertaking into the future to people who are involved in research that their programmes will not be stopped and started in this way.

Deputy Enright asked about the primary and second levels and the teaching of mathematics and science. I would particularly like to ask about the work done with the science teachers' association to which they referred. It seems to be a positive development whereby they bring the teachers and the students into co-operation with the third level system in order to up-skill the teachers and to develop an interest in science. How can that be developed and expanded in order that the result will be more children having a positive experience of learning science and taking it up in the future?

I support Deputy Enright in her comments on broadband. It is a positive announcement that schools will have broadband. However, are there obstacles with the rolling out of the system?

I apologise for the fact that I must go to the Dáil in a few minutes because I am to speak in the debate there. I hope to be back for their replies.

Deputy O'Sullivan, I would appreciate it if you came back because I will be listed fairly soon after you.

I welcome the groups. A number of Oireachtas Members are on the Friends of Science group and have found it to be useful and informative. Long may it continue. We look forward to visits to various facilities around the country.

I have a number of questions and comments. I cannot pinpoint them on SFI or on the Department per se because they are general policy related questions, but I would ask Dr. Harris the following. It seems that much of SFI’s work involves, as he stated himself, working as a magnet, trying to attract the best and brightest, who are already leaders in the fields and who are working abroad, to come back to Ireland. I would suggest that in the short-term that is the only way to go but in the long-term there needs to be much more investment in terms of bringing the graduates through. I know Dr. Harris acknowledges that but I would like some further details from him in terms of how he would see it happening.

IBEC recently made a presentation to the committee on the transition year. One of the suggestions I made was that rather than have a transition year after the end of third year at second level, it might be better to have transition modules. For example, if the last quarter of first year, which is an introductory year, were to be a transition period, that would enable young people to be introduced to the potential of science as a subject at a much earlier stage. In many cases when they take science and have not had a chance to see the practical applications, they can be turned off because there are no properly equipped laboratories. I do not wish to be disagreeable but in many cases there is a half-baked attitude to science where the traditional methods are used for teaching a subject that has advanced, particularly, in the area of biology. This brings me to the question of privatisation.

The Green Party is not opposed to or in favour of privatisation per se but with regard to education there is a fundamental issue. At present, much of the research carried out in Ireland and much of the higher level added-value employment comes from multinational companies. The danger with multi-national companies is that they are purely market driven. If a better skills base or expertise arrives, such as in India or in Eastern Europe, there is always the temptation that unless we can be ahead of our game they will ship off. Part of the reason it is easy for companies to ship off is that it is partial research that is taking place, a module rather than a whole project. How does either group of speakers consider that Ireland can be promoted as a base for multinational companies to carry out an entire project, so that there is a sense of ownership here, and also to increase indigenous levels of research and development investment. In this regard Ireland was recently identified as having the second lowest level of such investment in the European Union? I like to cite Finland as a model of indigenous success in this area. Multinationals and indigenous companies can work together successfully as partners. How practical is it to encourage companies to set up an entire research base rather than a partial research base? It suits overseas companies to have a partial research base. The Government does not do enough to encourage joint research and policy development policy.

This brings me to another area that may be contentious for certain people. There have been suggestions that the issue of third level fees and the increase in registration fees may act as a barrier or a disincentive to good second level graduates studying at third level in Ireland. If they are caught within the trap where their parents are low earners but do not necessarily qualify for a grant, they may consider it better to study in Scotland or the rest of the UK. How would that influence job decisions in later life? I argue that if one studies in Ireland and there are opportunities in Ireland one will work in Ireland. If one studies abroad, one may have an equal call towards working abroad. There is nothing wrong with working abroad. One will benefit from the experience whether one stays abroad or returns to Ireland. Should we have a policy whereby our third level education system is competitive from an affordability point of view to ensure our best and brightest stay to study here?

Speaking as a Green Party Deputy, there have been welcome developments in the areas of ICT and biotechnology within Science Foundation Ireland. There is huge potential for research into renewable energy given that recently Royal Dutch Shell's share price nearly collapsed because of its oil reserves. Given that oil production will peak shortly and gas cannot be far behind, there is potential for hydrogen cells for wave and wind energy. Rather than allow this technology be imported into Ireland, we have the potential to be world leaders in renewable technology. It only tends to diversify away from biotechnology and ICT along those lines.

On ICT, given that Eircom is a private company and that the State has no control over unbundling the local loop, how can broadband be provided to every part of the country? How can we ensure that the regions within Ireland can be centres of excellence if they need high speed connectivity? For example, we know that offshoots of 3COM work successfully in Spiddal. When they finish up the transfer of information to the US is very effective. There is plenty of potential for keeping people in Ireland if they have working conditions that suit them. In many cases, our best and brightest come from the western seaboard and may want to work in the west. They could do so if they had the proper ICT connectivity.

On the question of primary level broadband, has the delegation any hard hitting comments for the Government? I ask Mr. McCarthy how important is it to have a proper IT infrastructure at primary level to ensure that students can maximise their interest in science when they go to second level? For example, a couple of years ago the expensive failed experiment of words for learning brought in an IBM based system with an American methodology which did not necessarily suit the Irish mentality. Given that deficit it transpired that people ended up using the equipment in whatever way they saw fit.

Is there any way of expanding the economic benefit to Ireland in terms of its research and development investment? If that could be proved to the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, research and development investment would double in five years. It is one thing to create jobs by bringing the graduates back or giving jobs to third level graduates in Ireland, it is another to create a network in order to have an indigenous and partnership and multinational system where spin-off employment is created through the manufacturing process. Is there any way of proving the economic benefit by giving case studies? At present the emphasis is on providing jobs to highly skilled graduates as opposed to concentrating on the benefits to our economy because we know we cannot compete in the lower areas any more. The Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment refers frequently to higher added value but what is the economic benefit as opposed to the narrow economic benefit of employment in tax take?

I was going to ask about the conditions under which those at doctorate level work but that has been covered by the previous speaker. Given that we are investing so much in the sciences, is there a code of conduct in regard to such investment? One Dáil Deputy got into trouble about some of the shares he had. Is there a code of conduct in regard to where we invest our money? As Dáil Deputies we get all sorts of publications. Recently I was given a publication from AfrIwhich contained a report on the arms industry - A Death From A Distance. It referred to the number of universities that invest in research in the arms areas, some of it through Aerospace and so on. These include UL, NUI Galway, UCC. Many of the researchers are involved in different companies that probably have links to the arms industry. This issue arose during the Gulf War when many of the weapons of mass destruction used in that part of the world were put together by Irish companies. Does the delegation see a role for Science Foundation Ireland in regard to this investment? I support the whole idea of investment but we have to ask whether this money is being put towards the weapons industry and so on. How do university industry partnerships affect the autonomy of science throughout the world?

We hear stories about, say, tobacco companies investing in research but is that research compromised? To where is this investment going? I accept we must encourage more people into the sciences, create more jobs and so on but we must ask ourselves at some stage if it is right or wrong. That is the reason for my questions.

I welcome everybody here today, especially Dr. Harris, who I met recently and who is like a breath of fresh air to the system here. I congratulate him on the work he and the foundation is doing. In a very short time they have achieved a considerable amount, as well as their chairperson, Dr. Fottrell. What they have done to date is impressive. Perhaps they should come into the Dáil to see what we are doing with a view to improving the way we do our business.

Dr. Harris mentioned something about making the move from teaching to research. Could he expand on that? He also spoke about helping teachers to teach and I would like his views on the importance of teaching.

Linked to that aspect is the current difficulty of trying to attract students, especially at second level, to retain the sciences - physics, chemistry and so on - to leaving certificate standard. I am aware of some students who decided to opt for other subjects in order to increase the number of points. Even though they would have wished to retain physics or chemistry they made a decision, rightly or wrongly, that they would have a better chance of getting the higher points they require to get a course in university by not taking these subjects in the leaving certificate. Has Science Foundation Ireland examined that issue? That is probably a question for Mr. McCarthy and Dr. Meehan from the Department. Do they see it as an issue that will arise, and have they any connection with the curriculum review group examining the leaving certificate and the way the curriculum at second level might be changed to take that into account? I would also like to hear their views on the points system as it currently operates and which I believe is leading to this problem.

Has Science Foundation Ireland examined the career guidance sector at second level in particular? The service is not adequate and there is not a sufficient number of career guidance teachers who know enough about what is happening in science. They are also doing counselling in schools but many students need in-depth career guidance at an early stage to correctly identify their abilities and aptitudes. I know of some students who repeat the leaving certificate having got 530 or 540 points, which is not enough for medicine, not knowing they can get into exciting and innovative scientific areas, such as medical research, with that number of points through other avenues. They do not appear to realise that, and they all want to do medicine in universities. Does Dr. Harris have any suggestions as to how that problem might be changed and addressed?

I want to ask about science at primary level. As a child I found science very exciting but do we need to invest more at primary level to entice young children into the exciting world of science? Colleagues mentioned earlier the need for science laboratories at second level schools in particular. Would Dr. Harris agree it is important that we have properly equipped science laboratories in all second level schools, and backup technicians to assist teachers to prepare experiments and move into the experimental and practical areas rather than the theoretical area? Has Dr. Harris any view on that from his travels in different countries?

Will Dr. Harris comment on the need to take a long-term view of society? We discovered recently that Finland has a parliamentary committee on the future which takes a 20 year view of society. The committee interacts with scientists and others in trying to predict as best it can the needs of society in 20 years' time. Does anybody from the Department or Science Foundation Ireland know if anything like that is happening here?

Questions were asked about the future of universities in terms of public versus private, and we have had a number of discussions on that in different areas, but I would like to hear Dr. Harris comment on that based on his experience in the United States in terms of how that aspect is shaping up there.

Will the Department representatives give us an update on what is happening in terms of the Bologna Declaration? Many people in the scientific community are concerned about the declaration and the need for more co-operation across Europe to establish a European higher education area. I am aware that has been ongoing since 1988, and I have heard that many people in the scientific world are concerned about what they see as the lack of progress in this area. Mr. McCarthy might not have the details with him now but perhaps he might forward them to the committee as soon as possible. We might need to have a special meeting on this declaration, Chairman, because people in the scientific world tell me it is very important that Europe gets its act together and co-operates more to achieve a European higher education area, which would be important.

Dr. Harris mentioned in his presentation the importance of the humanities and the arts in universities. He said that a good research university should also be able to maintain a good arts and humanities faculty or whatever. Perhaps he would expand on that and explain the reason he believes it is so valuable. There is a notion abroad that the humanities and the arts are second rate, so to speak, and that science should have primacy over them. I do not agree with that, and Dr. Harris must agree because he is shaking his head, but I would like his view on the value of the humanities and the arts in complementing the science world. There is a role for both but I am sure Dr. Harris has some interesting comments to make on that.

I welcome the delegations to the committee. At the outset I would like to acknowledge the part played by Dr. Fottrell in the establishment of Science Foundation Ireland in Galway and the continuation of the college, which has bloomed over the years, under the current management.

Dr. Harris and Mr. McCarthy mentioned the idea of attracting people back to Ireland. In both those statements there is an indication that we lost people over a period and that we need to attract them back here. Is there any indication as to the actual numbers involved or the areas in which the loss was greatest over that period? The loss was associated with the lack of confidence in the sources of funding, whether it be the Department of Education and Science, private funding or the inability, during a time of depression, to attract funding from outside the country, especially America.

I believe I heard Dr. Harris correctly when he said that, having qualified, teachers are disconnected from science and from their training. I was interested to hear that he has had communication with the Minister for Education and Science and that he was very positive with regard to this area. How did the Minister respond given that, to say the least, there is tension in the education system with the Minister for Education and Science restricting the time out for teachers to upgrade their skills in education. I refer to teachers who may have graduated in the 1960s or 1970s and find that things have moved on. The Minister seems to be insistent that the period of the school year and arrangements regarding class contact hours are mandatory and there can be no move in that regard.

It is welcome that Science Foundation Ireland has initiated a pilot scheme whereby 30 or 40 teachers can apply to attend a type of summer school to upgrade their skills. If the necessary co-operation existed between Science Foundation Ireland and the Department, such upgrading could be provided on a broader scale in the future. With a current provision for 30 or 40 teachers, it is a good deal to expect a response to increasing the attractiveness of science at second level. Unless the attitudes of the Minister and Department change, we are in for a long haul in trying to achieve that. One of the foundation's criterion, which is welcome, is that it wants short, quick and sharp action.

The IDA and Enterprise Ireland are slow moving, careful in their activities and set in their ways. It has been recorded that because of the slow pace at which they have reacted or operated over the years in terms of attracting major industries and projects to this country, we have lost out to authorities in other areas that were far more decisive in their actions. Has Science Foundation Ireland pointed out to them the importance of the quick decisive action? In the current industrial climate all economies are seeking to secure such major projects. We have not been successful in securing such a major project in the past ten years, although I recognise that type of industry will not seek to be based here in the future and we will have to rely on what can be done in the area of research and development.

With regard to promoting the attractiveness of science, to which many members referred, did Science Foundation Ireland directly advise the Minister and the Department on how the seeds to achieve that could be sown at primary or secondary level to increase the uptake at third level? Will the representatives elaborate on the concept of privatisation and from their experience indicate how it has worked in other areas?

What are the representatives' views on the need to do more to facilitate those who study science, technology or engineering part-time at third level? I refer to the need to implement the provisions of the White Paper on life long learning. The free fees initiative should be extended to cover part-time course. The need to fund third level colleges to run part-time courses should also be examined. Many of them had to cut back on the provision of courses this year because of funding issues. The need to allow part-time courses to be studied during the day should also be addressed.

In regard to the IT sector, what are the views of the representatives of Science Foundation Ireland on the need to have a different approach to funding research and development for IT institutions because they are at a different level in terms of their infrastructure development and relationship with the private sector? How do the representatives consider that aspect should be approached?

The issue of the PRTLI got off to a good start but it has not kept up the momentum needed to ensure that we do not miss the boat in terms of our competitiveness in research and development. I would like to hear the representatives' comments on that.

In the area I represented when I was a local authority member, it was made a mandatory requirement of a planning scheme that a third level outreach centre must be located there, the focus of which would be ICT. The centre to which I refer will be close to businesses and it will have a role in regard to research and development. How do Science Foundation Ireland, the Department of Education and Science and the HEA anticipate such development? When this matter was raised by the council with the Department of Education and Science as to whether this would go ahead, its view was negative, but the councillors and planners decided to insert that provision and it is a mandatory requirement in the planning scheme. It is to be based in an area in Lucan where many business involved in technology are located.

With regard to money invested by the foundation in projects, does any money come back to the foundation from profits made from a successfully developed patent or other successful projects? Have the representatives any ideas in that regard?

I am reluctant to add to the large volume of questions with which the representatives have to deal, which will take much longer to address than the time likely to be available today. However, I have a few points. Much of the points most politicians raise are based on anecdotal evidence, which sometimes is surprisingly accurate. Frequently, we do not take account of the extent to which parents are opinion-formers in regard to the types of courses young people may follow. As a parent, I must confess that, irrespective of what wonderful aspirations I might have on various fronts, ultimately, I want my children to have qualifications that enable them to get employment. One area in respect of which a negative perception has developed is that of the primary degree in IT and the prospects of gaining employment on foot of that. Parents would say that they were advised eight or ten years ago that IT was the place to be and the area in which to have a degree. Then, there was a slump in the IT area, which does not quite explain the lack of employment opportunities. I suspect it might have something to do with employers' perception of the qualification as much as anything else. Many people have qualifications at primary degree level who clearly ought to be encouraged to specialise a little further. I do not know what role Science Foundation Ireland might have in this regard, but it seems that policy needs to be informed in this area to a greater extent than is the case.

Young adults often have an employment expectation, for example, in the area of engineering, that is not at one with the reality on the ground. That creates a difficulty in that people straight out of college aspire to employment prospects to which it would be more appropriate for them to aspire after they would have gained five or six years' experience. I do not know who is at fault in that regard or whether it is a matter of fault, but it is an area we need to address. I particularly believe that the role of parents, as individuals and equally as organised units, is important in this respect. I refer to the role played by the Catholic Secondary School Parents Association which had concerns about the new science course at junior certificate level. It was extremely supportive of it, but it had some concerns about it, which reflected concerns parents would have generally in that regard. Sometimes we make the mistake of forgetting that parents are major partners in the education system. However, I do not want to impose on the SFI or on the Department, exclusively, the role of informing parents although it is useful to bear in mind that they have a strong role.

I do not know how you will address the questions or how we might proceed because there is a large number of recurring themes in the points that have been raised. Perhaps we could give the groups five minutes each and see how we should proceed after that.

Dr. Harris

I greatly appreciate the committee's interest in this issue as is shown by the depth of the questions and the concerns expressed. There probably is too much here to try to digest at one time and the issues are so important that I would like to have the time to have this conversation appropriately. I would like to use hearings such as this to find a way to work with our board and adjust our strategies and so forth so they are responsive.

I am frequently guilty of using the word "university" by itself because I grew up in a culture where that meant college. I do not mean to omit the term "institutes of technology". I visit these institutions and I believe they are under valued and under utilised in Ireland. I am sometimes guilty of not using the words "institutes of technology" and I apologise to anybody who thought I did not know what they were. Dr. Fottrell might wish to comment first on the ITs and I will deal with the next general questions.

Dr. Fottrell

I had the honour last year of chairing a working group for the institutes of technology. They wanted us to look to the future and that provided the basis for their submission to the OECD at the time. There is an unfortunate perception of qualifications from institutes of technology versus qualifications from universities. This is wrong and the evidence clearly shows that the graduates of institutes of technology in the science, engineering and business areas are highly competitive and highly valued by industry. That can be seen in the regions. From Letterkenny to Waterford, for example, there are approximately 14 institutes of technology and they have done an enormous job for their regions.

The question being asked today is how they can be engaged further in the sector for which SFI is catering. It is something we have addressed at the board of SFI and it is being acted on. We are looking at various means whereby we can engage institutes of technology in the research agenda. The table at the back of the submission shows that some of them are already involved. They include the institutes in Waterford, Cork and Dublin. The committee will see over the years that they will develop their research activities. Rather than having a plethora of research activities throughout the country, SFI is trying to have centres of excellence and incorporate the institutes of technology into these centres on a regional basis and where they can provide definite skills. That will help the institutes in terms of their teaching because it is accepted that to provide high quality teaching there must also be ongoing research activity in the institute.

I accept the point that there is a certain public perception but that perception is wrong and I believe it will change. The ITs have suffered as a result of the downturn in the uptake of science and technology courses at third level, perhaps more than the university sector. However, they are working on that. They have a job to do in terms of selling themselves and selling their degrees. I am not sure if that answers the question.

That is the IT college element. However, there is also the bachelor of computer science type of degree which was once aspired to by students but is now considered less useful. It is not exclusively delivered in the IT sector. The information technology and computer qualification is sometimes provided in the university sector.

Dr. Fottrell

That is a victim of the downturn in interest in science and technology. We spoke earlier about the need to start this education early in the school system. There are many aspects to this issue and we could spend a great deal of time discussing them. There is, for example, a gender issue. Girls do far better in many of the subjects, such as mathematics, physics and chemistry, in schools yet they do not continue with these subjects at third level. How do we interest them in that? In fact, there is a gender imbalance. In medicine, it is the reverse. We are now seeing the feminisation of medicine where over two thirds of the people doing medicine are women.

Dr. Harris

I will cover a couple of points. Perhaps we might get together again to examine this more completely. I have an appointment to have dinner tonight in London with a Nobel Prize winner from CalTech so I must leave at 1.30 p.m. I do not like to leave but this was scheduled.

We understand. We are running a little later than usual.

Dr. Harris

Somebody mentioned the importance of primary and secondary education. There is no more important investment the country can make than in getting that right. If we do not get that right, the rest of the system will not work. I prefer to look at this as a complete system. One of my criticisms of the US and of Ireland, and I have passports for both countries and am a champion of both, is that we do not look at things systematically. We tend to do so piecemeal. We look at how to fix this problem today and that problem tomorrow. I have been here for almost three years and one of my great frustrations was hearing about the great education system in Ireland before I arrived here and then seeing the unfortunate situation with regard to the laboratories and the teaching of science and mathematics, particularly in the secondary system. I doubt that there can be a higher priority. I would focus with extreme energy on that because that is our future. If we do not get it right for those kids, we will fail.

In the university system and in other such systems we tend to worry about our own egos. We ought to step back and ask what the university is supposed to do. First and foremost, it is supposed to educate the children. The research is part of that. The same can be said about primary and secondary schools. We need to think about what is needed to educate an Irish child in this century to prepare them for a lifetime of high quality and high social expectations and to do so in a way that has a foundation of science and mathematics, in order that they can contribute to a modern society, and at the same time have the appropriate balance with the humanities and culture in order that they can make intelligent decisions in a democracy.

If there is a way SFI can help in this area, it will do so. The National Science Foundation was established to deal with science but it soon had to take up a role in mathematics and science education because it found the department of education in the US was too bureaucratic and slow. That is not to say it has a model over there but it has systems which can try to address these problems. Ireland is so small and so committed to education that if we examined it systemically and we agreed a set of priorities, we could do it. There is also nothing more important than having a hands-on approach. Teaching science as a history and mathematics in a theoretical and abstract way will turn students off the subjects. I challenge Ireland to produce an education system that is the best in the world and is measured by the performance of the students. If we do not get that right, it will not matter about third level and research.

I would be interested in learning more about the education systems in China and India. The culture of those countries puts a huge value and has great respect for science, engineering and medicine. The vast majority of their children get a foundational education in those subjects. Those countries are, and will be in the future, more competitive in those areas. I cannot express my surprise and amazement at what has happened in those two countries over the past two decades. They represent about half the population of the world. They will not simply do low cost things in the future but they will do high cost things as well and they will have the talent to do it. They care about science education and they are doing a better job at it than most western countries. There is something to learn from them.

It would also be useful to look at models together and see how Ireland can make investments in education and research which complement each other and provide value to the citizens of Ireland. Education and research should not be done in the abstract or purely for the interests of the faculty. The State makes an investment of tax euro in these areas because it has made a decision that this is important to the country's future rather than building a hospital or road today. Science Foundation Ireland and the education community have a responsibility to demonstrate that this is happening but we do not have the systems in place in the university system to do that at this time. I would like to see a debate begin about some of these matters also.

I have probably said enough to get the committee to debate these matters further. I may have said too much in that people may wonder why. However, this is so important that if we do not take it on as a matter of great concern we will have let the children down and that is not right.

Thank you, Dr. Harris. At this stage, you can feel free to make your escape to the airport.

There is a wide range of questions to be addressed and many of them deserve to be explored in great depth. In the time available, however, it will not be possible to do justice to all of them. I will attempt to pick up on the some of the key themes that have emerged. The take-up of science subjects was a recurring issue, and in particular the implementation of the physical sciences task-force, and how we can develop a culture of science in Ireland, which Dr. Harris mentioned. We are concerned here with developing a culture. The challenge is on that scale. We compare quite well across the OECD in terms of science graduate numbers but if we are to match our ambitions, the challenge is to make a leap in arresting the decline in the uptake of science subjects at second level in recent years and get a greater proportion of our leaving certificate cadre to continue studying the sciences in higher education. If we are to support the efforts of SFI and generate the knowledge that will sustain us and generate future prosperity and growth, on which we rely our higher education institutions to provide, we will have to address that issue.

The physical sciences task force laid out a number of recommendations across various levels. This matter must be addressed at a range of levels, including primary, post-primary, higher education and in the wider society, if we are to make the kind of inroads we want to achieve. As Deputy Enright pointed out, there has been progress on a number of those recommendations but it is acknowledged that progress has not been made on others.

The new discover science and engineering awareness programme, which was announced by the Tánaiste last year, has been launched by the Government. It is an integrated awareness programme with the potential to raise the consciousness of science in the community and hopefully to develop a science culture within our schools and the wider community, including parents and Irish mothers whom we are trying to reach concerning career subject choices for second-level students.

Curricular reform, including the new junior certificate cycle, and the introduction of science at primary level, will hopefully produce benefits over time. The investments we are making through PRTLI and SFI will raise consciousness about, and the profile of, science in the community. They will help to change perceptions that may have existed heretofore that perhaps science did not offer the kind of careers that traditional disciplines, such as law or medicine, had to offer school leavers. In asking Irish mothers to encourage their student offspring to take up sciences in greater numbers, those are the perceptions we have to change. Over time, the work of SFI and the HEA through the PRTLI will have an impact and will make major advances in developing careers for researchers and in developing the profile of high value-added jobs in the community, given the role of multinationals and the quality of employment they have to offer.

A number of specific questions were raised concerning the sufficiency of in-service days for the new primary curriculum. I do not propose to take those questions because I would not feel qualified to comment on them. I have responsibility for higher education and I would not presume to be an expert on what in-service training is required for primary teachers. For the same reason, I will not offer a reply to Deputy Stanton's question on the mandatory school year.

A number of questions concerned ICT and the roll-out of broadband through schools and higher education institutions. The Minister for Education and Science, together with the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, recently launched the schools' broadband initiative. HEA-net and IT-net have been successful in developing a broadband infrastructure in our higher education institutions. That has been important in terms of the development of research capacity generally. The facilities that are available there are state-of-the-art.

Specific comments were made about issues such as entrepreneurship at second level. The NCCA review of the senior cycle will be important in that respect. Equally, the suggestions concerning the modularisation of transition year are important in the context of that review of the senior cycle. Since those matters are outside my direct area of responsibility, however, I do not propose to deal with them in any greater detail.

As regards what needs to be done to attract the best international researchers, the development of attractive research careers is extremely important. The investments that are currently being made will hopefully help to do that. The conference of heads of Irish universities, which represents all the university presidents, has produced a discussion document on the development of more attractive research careers. That is an important contribution towards being able to offer people a career path in research. In time, hopefully, that will enhance the attractiveness of what is available. The scale and quality of research, as well as the quality of the infrastructure that is developed in our research centres, will be extremely important in attracting the best international researchers. Above all, it is probably the key in being able to attract the best international researchers in greater numbers. An interdepartmental group is in place, which is developing Ireland's national action plan for the achievement of the Barcelona target for the percentage of GDP spend on research and development. The work of that group is important in pointing the way towards addressing many of the issues that arise concerning our ability to attract the best internationally mobile researchers, in addition to issues of securing visas and increasing research investment from private sector industry through tax incentives. All of these are important in developing our research culture.

A couple of members of the committee pointed to the fact that there are a number of policy interests in the area of research, and that is clearly of importance in terms of the various strands through which research is being pursued, the Government's overall strategic objective and the priorities attached to research. As regards the interrelationship between what was described as the two major Departments in the research arena - the Department of Education and Science and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment - we enjoy a good working relationship with the latter Department. I hope that in the presentations that have been made to the committee today, we have been able to illustrate a degree of complementarity between the research funding efforts of the various programmes that suggests a joined up approach.

The Tánaiste is developing proposals for a policy oversight role for research generally. That is on foot of the Walsh commission which reported to her last year. That will be important in formalising the kind of working relationship that each of the research agencies and the major research policy bodies have developed.

Reverting to more specific questions, Deputy Crowe mentioned codes of conduct in respect of areas of research. He mentioned the specific instance of AfrI. For clarification, there is no direct Exchequer funding supporting research into the arms industry. Generally, the issue of the ethical considerations that inform approaches to research strategies is one that individual institutions would take account of in developing their own institutional research strategies. It would form a very important consideration for institutes that, as they develop their institutional strategies and as they focus on and prioritise particular research interests and areas - as the PRTLI demands they should - the highest ethical standards are taken into account.

The approach being pursued by Government in respect of research at this stage is a product of long-term planning in the best sense. Dr. Harris referred to the technology foresight process, which gave rise to SFI. That process took place in the late 1990s and it identified ICT and biotechnology as two extremely important areas for Ireland's strategic development. An innovation foresight process is currently underway under the auspices of the Department of the Taoiseach which is again looking at how, in the long term, we can make the transition to an innovation economy and society and build on all of the efforts and activities that are being pursued through all of the State agencies, not just in the research arena but also in respect of technology transfer, enterprise development, the attraction of inward investment, etc. That will be an extremely important process in terms of long-term development.

Senator Ulick Burke raised a specific question about the people who have been lost to the Irish system in recent years, the number of such people who have left and where they might have gone. The HEA first destination reports provide good information, on an annual basis, regarding the destination of graduates. That is a useful source and we can follow-up on the Deputy's query on that matter on his behalf.

Some interesting questions were raised, particularly by Senator Tuffy, about part-time programmes and enhancing access to science and engineering for adult learners through part-time provision. There has been an increasing emphasis on the use of modules within third level institutions, which will be helpful in this regard. Adult participation in higher education is a much broader and major question for policy-makers in the area. Senator Tuffy referred to funding and the possibility of extending free fees to adult learners, etc. Funding is an important incentivising mechanism in terms of making progress on the issue of adult learning. The HEA has produced a consultation document on a revised recurrent funding mechanism for higher education in general. Within that there are proposals for an increased emphasis on competitive-based funding which would incentivise the behaviour of institutions in terms of developing their activities in a direction that supports national priorities and objectives to an even greater extent.

Deputy Enright referred to the responsiveness of the further education sector to broader national economic needs. It would be fair to say that the higher education sector has shown a strong willingness to respond to national needs and objectives. We sometimes lose sight of the fact that there is a degree of responsiveness from our higher education institutions in terms of their willingness to serve broader national policy objectives which many other countries do not enjoy. The OECD team which is reviewing the higher education system in Ireland commented on that during its recent visit and indicated that it was impressed. There are good examples of the willingness of the higher education system to respond to those broader needs in terms of skills initiatives. In recent years, when we were experiencing extreme tightness in the labour market, higher education institutions responded to our needs in terms of putting into operation new programmes in a relatively short period. The sector also showed willingness to be at the forefront in supporting Ireland's research efforts in general.

I will leave it that for the moment. A number of specific questions were raised and it might be possible for me to follow-up on them in written communication to the committee. I refer, in particular, to the update on the Bologna declaration. I am in a position to report considerable progress. There is a national progress report available which we would be happy to forward to the committee. The status of broadband connectivity in schools and our plans in that regard is a matter on which I will ask some of my colleagues to report to the committee.

Dr. Eucharia Meehan may wish to comment on any matters to which I did not refer. I know that she wants to speak on one or two areas.

Dr. Eucharia Meehan

Deputy Gogarty referred to the research in the area of alternative energy sources. I draw his attention to the environment section of the PRTLI booklet which highlights some programmes the organisation is funding in that area. Sustainable Energy Ireland and the Environmental Protection Agency are also doing work in that area.

It is in the area of renewable energy rather than waste minimisation. That is why I asked the question.

Dr. Meehan

There are programmes, particularly at the Sligo Institute of Technology, which feed into that area.

A number of comments were made about proposals from the Higher Education Authority to move to a situation whereby some third level institutions could become public in nature. I wish to clarify that a privatisation type model is not being proposed. What is being proposed is that the institutions, if they felt it was required to enable them to have flexible systems in place, might be enabled, through legislation, to become private institutions. This might allow some flexibility around the areas of pay, etc. Reference was made earlier to the fact that in order to compete we may have to look at different models in the global context. The proposals in question are based on moving to a situation where funding would be provided more on an outcomes-based model than an inputs-based model. I would be delighted to provide Members with further information on what is being proposed. The proposal was submitted to the OECD review team which will make its deliberations and then present them to the Minister. At present, it is merely one proposal among a number of others.

I thank our guests for their presentations and for their replies to members' questions. I apologise for the fact that I missed some of those replies but I understand that they were extremely informative.

I remind members that the select committee will meet at 11 a.m. on Thursday, 6 May 2004 to discuss the Revised Estimates.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.30 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, 20 May 2004.
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