On behalf of the Joint Committee of Education and Science, I welcome the delegation representing the committee of science, education, culture, youth and sport of the Parliament of the Czech Republic. The meeting has been convened at the request of our visitors to discuss the finances and independence of universities, private schools and related topics. I propose to first call on the leader of the delegation, Mr. Eduard Zeman, MP, vice-chairman of the committee, to commence by introducing the other members of the delegation.
Parliamentary Delegation from Czech Republic: Presentation.
Mr. Eduard Zeman
I thank the Chairman most cordially for his words of warm welcome. I am vice-chairman of the committee for science, education, culture, youth and sport of the Chamber of Deputies of the Parliament of the Czech Republic and also chairman of the sub-committee for education. Mr. Josef Smýkal is the member of the committee which caters in particular for youth affairs. Issues related to youth are within his remit. Ms Ivana Levá, a member of the committee, who also deals with youth affairs, is predominantly focused on media. She is imbued with the spirit in relation to the issue and is a teacher entirely devoted to that topic. Mr. Záruba is a former principal of a school and is entirely devoted to educational matters. Ms Marcela Havrdová is clerk to the committee.
We wish to enrich and deepen our knowledge of the education area. I will structure our areas of interest into three groups. What matters related to education are on the agenda of the joint committee? What is the committee's plan for activity? What powers has the committee to influence the funding structures for education? What do committee members view as the most important changes to be conducted in education? I thank the committee for its attention and I would appreciate if my colleagues were allowed to pose questions too.
I welcome the delegation and hope we will have some interesting exchanges. I am the Vice-Chairman of the committee but a member of one of the Opposition parties. The Labour Party has connections with some members of the delegation.
The committee is not involved in deciding budgets, as it is a matter for the Government. However, the committee has the opportunity to invite different groups working in education to address it. It can make recommendations to the Minister for Education and Science. The committee also has an opportunity to discuss expenditure on education through the Estimates. This afternoon the Government will announce the spending Estimates for the coming year. After lunch, the delegation will have a chance to see how much expenditure education will receive and in what areas there will be increases.
While different members of the committee have different priorities, we focus on particular issues. We have addressed the area of third level education. I note the delegation is also interested in this area and how research and development projects interact with third level institutions. Another area of interest to the committee is disadvantage in education and those children who do not benefit from it. We are expecting the Minister to announce proposals in this area shortly. I also note the Czech Republic has a better average pupil-teacher ratio, a maximum of 30:1, than Ireland. Pupil-teacher ratio is a contentious issue in Ireland. We may have an opportunity for more interaction later on but I thank the delegates again.
I thank the Chairman and officially welcome him to his new position. I also welcome the delegation from the Czech Republic. Working visits can often take up a great deal of time and be quite draining but I hope the visitors have the opportunity to enjoy Ireland. I too am a member of one of the Opposition parties, the Green Party. The visitors will receive detail about the powers of the committee from the secretariat. The Government always has a one member majority on the committee, with the result that while the committee can push to influence and make recommendations it has no power to force the Minister to take action.
The work of the committee nevertheless is very valuable in raising issues and inviting various groups in to discuss interesting aspects of education that need highlighting. The secretariat will provide a full list of committee debates and visits over the past year. These covered funding for third level education, to which Deputy O'Sullivan alluded, and educational disadvantage. One of the more interesting issues is the new Education for Persons with Disabilities Bill.
Other issues considered include abuse that took place in residential institutions and attendance at school. The Grangegorman Development Agency Bill will be introduced for a group of colleges, the Dublin Institute of Technology, which has 20 different locations, to create a new single campus to absorb these faculties from their diverse locations.
I thank the delegates for their interest and would welcome some of their comments on issues such as third level funding and literacy.
I welcome the delegation. I am also a member of an Opposition party, the Fine Gael Party. The committee deals with several issues. Since I was elected there has been very little legislation in the education portfolio. This may be because many of the structures are already in place and many of the decisions depend on resources or finances. Some of the more pressing issues that have come to the fore include third level education, of which funding is only one aspect. We also must begin to look at the structures of universities and institutes of technology and the need for reform of the structures, the size of the governing bodies and the ways in which they operate. We were disappointed that only three Irish universities were included in the list of the top 500 internationally, based on the Shanghai report. We must be able to place ourselves in a position to compete internationally.
At the other end of the system I am interested in the delegates' views on the pre-primary or pre-school education system. It is a key area that we have failed to address in any significant or proper way. Perhaps the delegation might also explain the responsibilities of the department of education, youth and sport. Sport comes under a different Department here. It is obviously very important at school level, but we do not have proper structures in place there either. People mentioned the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Bill 2003. One of the principles was that children should be entitled to what is known as a multidisciplinary approach, whereby parents, teachers, the school principal and the various therapists would be able to meet to discuss the child's needs. As it is very much in its infancy, I am reserving judgment on whether it will work as intended.
I welcome the delegation from the Czech Republic. We are sorry that we could not organise better weather. I will address some of the issues that I believe are important to the committee and on which a great deal of emphasis has been put recently.
As a member of the main Government party, Fianna Fáil, I feel that children with disabilities have been emphasised. For example, every child starting primary school this year recognised by a psychologist as requiring a special needs assistant now has one to attend to it on a one-to-one basis. However, more funding is needed to assist children with learning disabilities, particularly to provide additional teaching hours for their growing needs.
Another important issue for the committee is the school building programme. In the 1960s, the Government of the day introduced free education for every child. As a result, schools were needed very quickly, and many were built together at low cost. Forty years later, we are faced with the difficulty of low-cost, poor accommodation that places great demands on the public purse to upgrade to a proper contemporary standard. As many as 1,000 schools have applied to the Department for new buildings or upgraded facilities, which is quite significant. Other issues include, as my colleagues said, the pupil-teacher ratio, which must be reduced for effective teaching to take place. Literacy among adults and support for science, particularly among women, must be addressed. Very few women are active in science or engineering, and the Department has already recognised that something must be done.
I welcome the delegation. I am a member of Fianna Fáil, the major governing party, which is in coalition with the Progressive Democrats.
Many of the issues have been touched on, including a few on which I had intended to speak. However, one issue that was not raised was that of Gaelscoileanna, the Irish-medium schools. There has been a revival in teaching Irish. There are now special schools that teach not only Irish but all the subjects through Irish. Many of the people were studying Irish at school, but were not able to speak it fluently when they had finished and this presented a problem. It possibly might be attributed to the type of system we have for the teaching of Irish in the schools. It mainly comprises written Irish which would account for approximately 75% of the marks in the State examination, with 25% for oral Irish. Many of the problems we have as regards spoken Irish are accounted for in this way. We concentrate on the written Irish and that is why the revival of Gaelscoileanna in the country is so important.
Another issue of concern is funding for different youth affairs issues.
I represent Sinn Féin, which is an Opposition party. It is an all-Ireland party with elected representatives on both sides of the Border, North and South. The major debate on education in Ireland focuses on access. This is a wealthy country, with a thriving economy, but there are extremes of wealth and poverty nonetheless. Some 66,000 children live in poverty in Ireland. The education system also mirrors this divide. There is still an infrastructural deficit, particularly in the area of schools. In many schools the conditions are unacceptable. People from poor or disadvantaged backgrounds have difficulty in getting access to the third level education system. The pattern is that up to 95% of places in third level institutions are filled by people from well-off backgrounds and the middle class children of large farmers, lawyers, teachers, the police etc.
In recent years, certainly, much greater emphasis has been put on the need to tackle disadvantage and to give access to education to people from poorer backgrounds. For children going to school hungry a breakfast club has been introduced, which has been successful in those areas where it has been established. The other area of weakness is child care and pre-school education. There has, however, been much investment in this area in recent years. The necessity of child care for lone parents or people who want to go back into the education system is also paramount.
We still have great difficulty as regards the problem of young people leaving school too early. A number of programmes have been introduced to encourage young people to stay in school. One is called Youthreach, which is for young people who have dropped out of school, with a built-in financial incentive for them to stay on. There are also homework clubs, devised as a programme to encourage young people to come together to study, perhaps in circumstances where homes may be overcrowded.
As regards the Joint Committee on Education and Science, while there is a Government majority, members tend, in general, to work together. There is rarely a vote at the committee. Everyone has an opinion and is given an opportunity to speak. As well as considering legislation coming through the Parliament, the most significant and positive point is that we would bring many different education groups into this and give them a voice, an opportunity to air their concerns.
Do the members of the delegation have any further questions or comments on the issues raised by the committee?
Mr. Zeman
Thank you very much for the floor. During the course of our discussion, I forgot to congratulate you on being elected, Chairman. I will try to respond in a nutshell to the points raised and, subsequently, I will ask my colleagues to complement this.
I will begin with the point made by the Deputy who represented the governing coalition, namely, the issue of the Irish language revival and Irish studies. The first contact between our two countries dates to the period when Ireland re-exported or returned culture and civilisation to the continent of Europe in the time of Charles the Great or Charlemagne. At that time, the first Christian churches were built in Bohemia in the Czech lands by Irish monks. Now, Ireland exports computer software and computer teaching methods to us. In other words, the context has returned to the desired form and level.
The Czech Republic has a full understanding of the Irish situation. The Czech language also almost died and the nation could have dissipated among other nations and peoples. Some 200 years ago, the Czech language was not being used officially and hardly anyone was capable of writing the language. However, during the course of the 19th century, we succeeded in raising the Czech language among the leading languages in Europe. All we can do is to keep our fingers crossed for the Irish language to be just as successful.
In the past six years we have managed to adopt much legislation. For the first time in our history, we have adopted legislation which provides for the relationships to be used in education. We have also adopted legislation in regard to science, as well as sport and physical training. While a challenging and difficult situation still prevails in the area of education, the most significant reforms and amendments have already taken place. In 1998, we adopted legislation on higher education covering the university sector and higher education which has helped us to successfully begin fulfilling the requirements of the Bologna process. Two further Acts were adopted, one which deals with education and the other with teacher training and the preparation of educationists, and this legislation now covers all areas from pre-school education up to secondary school leaving certificate. These Acts were adopted only following great perseverance by several Governments over a period of ten years.
We are extremely proud of our education, sport and youth related expenditure and investment. However, the maintenance of all that has been invested in this area is very costly. As a consequence of the recent fall in population, there is perhaps an excessive number of schools. We are not suffering from any school building deficits, therefore. Likewise, there are sufficient gymnasiums and sports facilities in schools or attached to schools. With regard to pupil-teacher ratios, we are too well off. The ratio is so low that the question is whether it will be acceptable and financeable in the long term.
Third level education is an issue of shared interest. For a number of years, there has been political debate and struggle on that topic. So far, the result has been a tie. The chief issue is that of tuition fees and whether such should be introduced in terms of public higher education institutions. Fortunately, there are 330 private third level education facilities, HEIs, which have tackled this problem to some degree. The prevailing situation is that the higher education institutions are in favour of the introduction of tuition fees as it would provide the means for them to secure more independence from the State and attain greater autonomy.
It is the same situation here.
Mr. Zeman
Members will be aware that, in line with the views of the political party of which I am a member, I do not favour the introduction of tuition fees. In terms of social impact, it would bring about a deterioration in current circumstances.
The Irish Government faces the challenge of whether to bring closer together the universities and institutes of technology. This is not an approach which has proven successful in my country since all the equivalents of the institutes of technology have now attained the status of universities. There are 25 public universities and three State universities. We do not recommend such an approach, therefore. I have gone through this experience as a former Minister of education, youth and sport and I warn the committee against such a direction. Ireland should not let this happen. Nevertheless, we can learn something from the manner in which Ireland funds its research and development activities. This is one of the most sensitive elements in our funding system.
We have worked to address the issue of provision for children with disabilities. However, the situation of socially disadvantaged groups represents something of a challenge and is still to be addressed. A significant issue in the Czech Republic is the situation of the national minority of Romanies. A number of programmes and schemes have been introduced to deal with this matter. For example, we have been successful in terms of pre-school education where 98% of children of the relevant age attend such establishments. Unfortunately, the 2% who do not avail of pre-school education is predominantly made up of Roma children. If we had more time, we could elaborate on specific programmes, such as those which provide free meals for pupils. These are an encouragement to Roma parents to send their children to school.
Unfortunately, the problem persists at primary and lower secondary levels. Some 96% of those children in the relevant age group attend school successfully but the 4% non-attendance figure mainly comprises Roma children. I could continue in the same spirit. Some 92% of pupils in the Czech Republic complete secondary level education. That is almost a world record. Of these, 75% receive an advanced level certificate. Figures have trebled in the Roma community, though they are still not satisfactory.
I would like to give my colleagues an opportunity to make a contribution.
Mr. Bohuslav Záruba
I represent the Civic Democratic Party, the major right of centre opposition party. The committee meetings have been an excellent experience for me. There is mutual respect among us. Had there been such consensus and harmony throughout the Chamber of Deputies as there is within our committee, the situation in the country would be far more satisfactory.
In spite of that, there is a diversity of opinion on the adopted education Act, and also the introduction of tuition fees at third level. Responsibility for funding shall be transferred from central level to 14 regions. Should this system be adopted, the difference in tax revenues across individual regions might result in a lack of uniformity regarding funding. Higher education institutes will be funded by 14 Ministries or Departments in a different and diverse manner. The education Act imposes a certain restriction on secondary schools in terms of freedom to administer and govern.
Third level graduates enjoy a better position in the labour market, and this contributes to their competitive edge. Tax reform and the restructuring of incentives in the education system make it possible to guarantee access to third level education for children from less advantaged backgrounds.
Ms Ivana Levá
I represent the Communist Party of Bohemia and Moravia, the left of centre Opposition party. I was surprised to hear of two matters relating to primary education in Ireland. It is not the mother who teaches her child the Irish language, but the teacher. Also, there are no co-educational schools. Your children are missing much.
Ireland does have co-educational schools also.
Ms Levá
I recommend the Irish Government to pay attention to and address the issue of over-sized classes. This will benefit both teachers and pupils. We have addressed the issue with regard to a number of subjects, such as foreign languages, physical training and workshop-based subjects. If there are 28 pupils, the class is split into two halves and each has its own teacher. Gifted or talented children do not need as much attention as those who are slower on the uptake and need the assistance of a teacher. This is not feasible if there are too many pupils. Pre-school education certainly is of a very high standard in our country. We might share some of our experience, but I am not sure we have sufficient time now.
Mr. Josef Smýkal
By way of introduction, I would like to thank members of the committee for a very pleasant welcome and reception. I thank the members for being straightforward and open with us. I am happy we have proven the democracy that was illustrated by the diversity of opinion on the education Act. Even though I am a member of one of the parties in power, I respect and confirm the words as expressed by both the colleagues from my party and from Opposition parties as well. While I do not know how much time we have, I am sure we might elaborate in a lengthy way on each topic outlined by Mr. Zeman.
I have been asked to respond to specific questions and will respond to one of the items on the agenda. One of the Deputies who has already left posed a question on the structure of administration or governance of youth, sport and education. All those individual fields are within the remit of a single Department or Ministry, including science. We will always have a shortage of funding and will never have enough money coming through to the recipients. However, we are fully aware that by investing into youth, sport and education, one invests in the future for the sake of the country.
In our country the capital expenditure investment simply for material infrastructure is drawn from the state budget. Funding is also earmarked for top sportsmen who represent the state. We are happy to be able to boast of a great number of high performing sportsmen of whom we are really proud. As mentioned by my colleague, we have 14 regions which within their Votes and the apportionment from the budget are obliged to support and promote youth and sports, including giving assistance within their respective communities.
We have had some meetings and discussions at the Irish Departments. The head of delegation, Mr. Zeman, also mentioned the experience in terms of revenues from the national lottery being used to finance the sport, which is an additional amount of funding separate from the state budget allocation. Again this money is reinvested or returned to the development or promotion of sport. I believe that is a response to the Deputy's question.
We can continue our discussion over lunch. I thank our guests from the Czech Parliament. I hope the meeting has been as informative for them as it has been for us. I wish them well for the remainder of their visit to Ireland.
Our next meeting will be a meeting of the select committee to consider the Grangegorman Development Agency Bill.
The joint committee adjourned at 1.05 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, 2 December 2004.