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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE debate -
Thursday, 12 Mar 2009

Third Level Education: Discussion.

We will hear a presentation by the representative bodies of the heads of institutes of technology and the colleges of education regarding the possible reintroduction of third level fees. However, that is only a small element of the debate. We will also examine the levels of accountability and systems for measuring outcomes in the institutes of technology and colleges of education as well as other important issues relating to the future of the third level education system.

I welcome the following: Mr. Michael Carmody, chairman of Institutes of Technology Ireland and president of the Institute of Technology Tralee; Dr. Tim Creedon, president of the Institute of Technology Tallaght; Dr. Mary Meaney, president of the Institute of Technology Blanchardstown; Mr. Paul Hannigan, president of the Institute of Technology Letterkenny; Mr. Tom Stone, secretary-financial controller of the Institute of Technology Tallaght; Mr. Gerry Murray, chief executive, Institutes of Technology Ireland; and Mr. Gearóid Hodgins, director of HR-IR, Institutes of Technology Ireland. I also welcome Dr. Pauric Travers, president of St. Patrick's College, Drumcondra; Dr. Anne O'Gara, president of Coláiste Mhuire, Marino; and Ms Marie McLoughlin, president of Froebel College, Blackrock.

I ask Mr. Carmody and then Dr. Travers to give a short presentation on the possible reintroduction of third level fees and the levels of financial accountability and systems for measuring outcomes in the institutes of technology, as well as other important issues. These have also been addressed by the heads of the universities. I propose that members question the heads of the institutes of technology in the first instance and, when that discussion is completed, questions can be directed to the representatives of the colleges of education. The colleges are part of the universities sector whereas the institutes operate as independent entities. Members will, therefore, have different questions for each sector.

Members of this committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. Carmody to begin.

Mr. Michael Carmody

I thank the committee for the invitation to the meeting this morning. The committee asked that we address a number of specific issues, and we did so in the documentation forwarded to the committee last week. I will briefly outline the key issues as we see them and we can discuss them in more detail during the questions.

With regard to the proposed reintroduction of fees, it is our view that, with the annual student service charge due to increase from the current level of €900 to €1,500 in September 2009, a fairly significant level of student contribution to tuition is already in place. The introduction of the free fees initiative in 1995 meant, in effect, the abolition of university tuition fees. Previously, the certificate and diploma courses which were run in the institutes of technology, or regional technical colleges as they were then known, did not attract tuition fees as they were funded by the European Social Fund, ESF. Indeed, the students also obtained a maintenance grant. Currently, higher education institutions are reimbursed tuition fees on a per capita basis related to the level of programme studied. Given the strength of institute of technology provision at levels 6 and 7, that is, higher certificate and ordinary degree, on the National Framework of Qualifications, institutes receive less tuition fee income per student than universities. Where programmes in the same discipline and at the same NFQ level are offered and delivered in universities and institutes of technology, the amount paid to institutes is lower.

The institutes are particularly concerned that the formal re-introduction of undergraduate tuition fees could have serious negative repercussions for the sector and those wishing to attain third level qualifications. There could be a significant migration of students and revenue from Border areas in particular to Northern Ireland and the UK if there were significant fee differentials due to the introduction of tuition fees in addition to the student services charge. In our submission we looked at the current trends in participation at third level, which shows a very significant increase in the number of mature students and people presenting with further education qualifications, the FETAC qualifications, through the PLC route. That is very positive. Other cohorts that should be considered are ethnic groups, disabled learners and particularly the socio-economically disadvantaged group for whom the institutes cater particularly well. Approximately 30% of our cohorts are in that group. The regional distribution of institutes of technology throughout the country is particularly suitable for people in those cohorts trying to attain higher education. That is a very important factor in the growth in that area.

If the formal reintroduction of undergraduate tuition fees is proposed, the current inequity between full-time and part-time provision should be addressed. Currently, part-time students, who are usually in the mature student category, must pay tuition fees. Furthermore, from the institutes' perspective, all part-time programmes must be run on a break-even basis, at least. That makes those programmes prohibitively expensive to run and for students.

We believe that all citizens with the academic ability to succeed in higher education should have the opportunity to participate. Given their importance to the economy and to lifelong learning, we believe that level 6 and 7 programmes should only incur the current student services fee. Alternatively, we suggest that access to funding for a certain number of third level credits, perhaps 120, would be available to all, to allow them to choose their range of programmes. In addition, specific level 8 programmes — honours degree programmes — in specific areas targeted for skills needs should be in receipt of significant State incentive to encourage participation in them.

If tuition fees are to be formally reintroduced, it is essential that appropriate student supports are in place. The current means test is solely income-based and inequitable. It is based on the means at commencement and remains that way throughout the course, irrespective of changes in means. Valid and workable mechanisms must be put in place to determine who should be exempt or partially exempt from tuition fees if they are introduced. If a student loan system is introduced, the possibility of an income contingent repayment loan should be examined. In other words, students would repay the loan on completion of the course and repayment would be related to the amount of income they earn in their working environment. If that is introduced, repayments should be effected through the existing Revenue collection system rather than through any other mechanism.

On the second issue of accountability and measurement outcomes, academic standards in the institutes of technology have been subject to rigorous internal and external evaluations since the late 1970s. Internally, academic councils have an independent statutory quality assurance role. Equally, the institutes operate according to the procedures of the Higher Education and Training Awards Council and the European standards and guidelines for quality assurance. These include a comprehensive system of external validation, new programmes and comprehensive programmatic and institutional reviews that include learner as well as national and international peer review.

The IT sector is well regulated in terms of financial controls. Some 80% of the budget relates to pay, and there are well-defined pay scales. A significant proportion of the remainder is committed to fixed costs and overheads. The institutes operate a common chart of accounts and finances are managed through a common management information system. The institute president is the statutorily accountable person for the institutes and is supported by a secretary and financial controller. We also have an externally sourced internal audit function which serves the whole sector. Some institutes also have an internal audit function. The institutes also have an internal audit committee of the governing body, which serves an important function. Of course, our accounts are also audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

In its review of higher education in Ireland, published in 2004, the OECD commented that Ireland has made enormous strides over the previous 15 years in substantially growing participation rates in higher education without any evidence of a lack of quality. That growth in participation continues while at the same time full attention is paid to enhancing the quality of the teaching and learning experience. It is widely accepted that a knowledge economy requires a significant emphasis on science and engineering graduates. Today, the institutes of technology are the largest providers of graduates in both disciplines.

The ITs and the Higher Education Authority have agreed that a unit costing model should be developed It is being tested within the IT sector, comparable to the university sector. That is to be completed by the end of 2009.

On the next point, other education issues, of which there could be a large range, we appreciate the opportunity offered to comment on them. One of particular relevance at the moment concerns labour market activation measures. The institutes have produced a range of targeted programmes to assist people who are unable to obtain work owing to the economic downturn. We have also looked in particular at the apprenticeship issue, which is significant in our sector.

We have also outlined a proposal to create a national technological university within the institutes of technology as constituent colleges. We believe that is an important designation to reflect properly the level and range of teaching and research activities carried out within the sector where we all operate to level nine and level ten in research. We believe it is important to respond to the growing international interest in Irish higher education. The lack of international recognition of the title "institute of technology" is a barrier to increasing activity and income. Having a common designation would also create a common brand for marketing the institutes internationally.

Another issue, which has been on the agenda for some time, concerns securing Seanad voting rights for graduates of the institutes of technology comparable with the university sector. That should be brought in through legislation so that we would have a common right, possibly with six seats across the sector equally.

I have kept those introductory remarks fairly brief. We will be happy to deal in more detail with the questions as they arise.

Dr. Pauric Travers

On behalf of CHoICE, the conference of heads of Irish colleges of education, I thank the Chairman and other members of the joint committee for their invitation to make this presentation. The detail of our presentation has been circulated so I will keep my introductory remarks fairly brief. Our submission focuses mainly on the areas identified by the committee as being of current concern — funding, fees, accountability and quality assurance — while placing these in the context of the work done by the colleges of education and the challenges facing them.

The conference of heads of Irish colleges of education network brings together the five primary teacher education colleges — the Church of Ireland College of Education, Froebel College, the Marino Institute of Education, Mary Immaculate College of Education in Limerick, and St. Patrick's College in Drumcondra. The network is informal. Each of the colleges functions independently and while they share many characteristics in common, they also vary in many respects.

The distinguished poet , Séamus Heaney, once said that society could survive without universities but he was less sure that it could survive without teacher education colleges. Admittedly it was a sweeping statement, but it points to the fundamental importance of teaching and, therefore, of teacher education to the well-being of society. The latter point has frequently been affirmed but most recently in the statement on education and training, which was published by the National Competitiveness Council earlier this week.

As Mr. Carmody said, the colleges of education are part of the university sector but they retain their own operational and institutional autonomy. The two largest primary teacher education colleges — Mary Immaculate College and St. Patrick's College — are affiliated with the University of Limerick and Dublin City University, respectively. Three smaller colleges, Marino, Froebel and Church of Ireland, are associated with Trinity College Dublin.

In terms of funding, St. Patrick's College and Mary Immaculate College are designated colleagues under the Higher Education Authority. They are funded through a grant-in-aid and fees, the same as universities. The Church of Ireland College is funded directly by the Department of Education and Science but through a grant-in-aid and fees. The other two colleges, Froebel and Marino, are funded by the Department of Education and Science on a capitation basis and from the free fees scheme.

Staff in St. Patrick's College, Mary Immaculate College and the Church of Ireland College contribute to the Department of Education and Science pension scheme which is an unfunded, defined benefit scheme. Staff in Marino and Froebel, unless they are seconded from teaching positions elsewhere, are members of a private pension scheme.

We confirm that there is an effective system of internal financial control to ensure efficiency and effectiveness in respect of expenditure of public funds, as set out in the financial statements. It mirrors some of what was said earlier by our colleagues from the institutes of technology sector.

There has been relatively little capital investment in the colleges of education in recent decades. Arising from the Kelly re-prioritisation group, both Mary Immaculate College and St. Patrick's College have approval for building programmes which are proceeding. It is of the utmost importance that they would continue despite the difficult financial times. In the absence of State funding, Marino embarked on a significant campus development for essential facilities which was funded through borrowings.

Student numbers in the colleges have expanded significantly with a five-fold increase over the past 16 years. While the defining activity in the colleges is initial teacher education, the colleges are and must be involved in teacher education across the continuum, including early induction and continuing professional development. We offer a range of undergraduate and postgraduate programmes up to and including EdD and PhD.

The colleges have responded flexibly to ongoing curriculum reform and emerging needs over the past decades, through curriculum development at undergraduate and postgraduate levels. We have outlined some examples of that in our submission.

Of necessity, all the colleges maintain close working relationships with schools and respond flexibly to system needs in that area. Repeated research studies have shown that teacher quality is the single most important factor in improving educational outcomes. If quality teaching is to be maintained a sine qua non is investment in high quality pre-service and in-service teacher education, which is something that was said earlier this week in the report of the National Competitiveness Council.

As a body, CHoICE does not take a collective view on tuition fees which we consider are ultimately a matter of public policy and political choice. All our institutions have a considerable commitment to equity, social justice and the greater good. In our view, decisions on education funding should be made in accordance with those principles. We would be greatly concerned about the impact of the reintroduction of fees on access for under-represented groups.

In terms of quality assurance, as institutions centrally involved with teaching and learning, the colleges enjoy a reputation for expertise in this area at a practical and theoretical level. The student retention rate in colleges of education is exceptionally high. A range of structures and initiatives are in place, internally and externally, to promote quality improvement. These include staff development, induction, external examination, external accreditation and the quality assurance process developed by the Irish universities quality board, which includes external review.

I apologise for interrupting Dr. Travers. As a vote has been called in the Dáil, the meeting must suspend shortly. Rather than interrupt Dr. Travers's presentation, I ask Senator Keaveney to continue chairing the meeting until he has finished at which stage the meeting will be suspended for ten minutes until the vote is over.

Senator Cecilia Keaveney took the Chair.

Dr. Pauric Travers

I was drawing towards a conclusion. I was speaking about quality assurance and I mentioned the internal and external quality assurance measures. In addition, the relatively newly established Teaching Council has within its remit the accreditation of programmes in initial teacher education and all existing programmes will be subject to re-accreditation by the Teaching Council.

Department of Education and Science inspectors also see a selection of our students on teaching practice and report on their findings. As part of their probation, newly qualified teachers and essentially all our teacher education graduates are required to complete a classroom-based teaching diploma conducted by Department of Education and Science inspectors. The overwhelming majority of teachers who qualified from the colleges of education are considered to be effective teachers by the Department of Education and Science inspectorate and that is what it has reported.

I thank the committee for its attention and look forward to engaging with it on any questions it may have.

Do Senators want to make a contribution or would they prefer that we suspend the meeting?

In fairness to the rest of the committee, it might be wiser to wait.

We might continue because they will be back in ten minutes.

I appreciate that, but it is just that my questions would be relevant to everybody else as well.

In that case, we will suspend for ten minutes.

Sitting suspended at 10.55 a.m. and resumed at 11.05 a.m.
Deputy Paul Gogarty took the Chair.

I apologise to Dr. Travers. Unfortunately, the business of the Dáil takes precedence over that of committees. I am glad he was able to complete his contribution prior to the suspension. I thank Senator Keaveney for chairing the meeting in my absence. Members may now pose questions, first to Mr. Carmody and then to Mr. Travers.

It is great to see so many representatives of higher education present at this meeting. I wish, in particular, to welcome Mr. Creedon and his colleagues from the Institute of Technology Tallaght, which is located in my constituency of Dublin South-West.

I thank Mr. Carmody for his presentation. When the presidents of the universities came before the committee, I asked how many of their institutions were in deficit. As our guests are probably aware, there is quite an amount of bellyaching taking place in the university sector with regard to deficit problems. How many of the 15 institutes of technology are in deficit?

What is Mr. Carmody's opinion of a story that has developed during the past 24 hours to the effect that two universities have come together to enable them to pitch, on a joint basis, for substantial moneys from the new PRTLI and the SFI funding mechanisms? Effectively, this story relates to what is termed fourth level education, in respect of which substantial sums of money are now provided. It is obvious that the authorities at the other five universities which are not party to this upstairs-downstairs arrangement are quite disgruntled. What is the view of the institutes of technology on this matter?

Mr. Carmody put forward the suggestion, on behalf of the institutes of technology, that there should be a national technological university. I welcome this proposal because such a university would provide a strong grounding in respect of the excellent courses on offer at the 15 institutes of technology. In addition, it would allow the country to advertise, on an international level, the services of those who graduate from the courses to which I refer. Where stands this proposal in the context of the discussions taking place between the institutes of technology and the Department of Education and Science?

To be brief and, I hope, not simplistic, I endorse the questions posed by Deputy Brian Hayes. Will Mr. Travers outline the organisational structure that would apply in respect of the proposed technological university? I presume our guests envisage some form of confederation arrangement in this regard. The proposal in this regard is attractive because it would allow us to circumvent the problems of us being pressured by, for example, Waterford Institute of Technology. When the latter moved to become the first institute of technology to upgrade to university status, there was a quick reflex reaction from other quarters. I do not believe anyone wants to go down that road again, but we recognise that the south east has a problem in this regard which is one of its own perception.

The Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, indicated that he does not intend to proceed with the legislation designed to promote Ireland as a location for third level education. I understand that, based on his experience of the activities of Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland on a number of trade missions abroad, the Minister is going to assign the role of promoting this country as such a location to Enterprise Ireland. How do our guests perceive the capacity of the third level sector as a whole to promote education as a service that can be traded internationally and to promote Irish educational excellence in general?

I welcome our guests and thank them for their presentations. What role can the institutes of technology play in respect of our economic recovery? A considerable budget was recently allocated to FÁS in respect of retraining. Should the institutes of technology have obtained a portion of this funding? In light of current and future skills needs, was allocating that money to FÁS the best way to spend it? Will it result in a long-term gain as opposed to meeting a short-term target in respect of skills needs?

Mr. Carmody indicated that the institutes of technology do not really favour the reintroduction of third level fees. The Fine Gael Party welcomes that statement. Other than income, what would the institutes of technology like to be included for consideration in a means test designed to establish whether students should be entitled to free fees?

Does Deputy Flynn wish to make a contribution?

I apologise for my late arrival. What is the way forward on school fees? Some people say publicly no fees will be applied but, privately, they say something must be done. However, we must be careful that those on the lower rungs of the economic ladder are not caught in the crossfire. USI made a proposal in this regard and I would like the institutes to elaborate on theirs.

Mr. Carmody said the introduction of undergraduate tuition fees would have negative repercussions for the sector and for those wishing to attain third level education. What are the negative repercussions? The presentation outlined the need for income assessment and a loan repayment scheme. What option should be taken to fund the third level sector other than imposing fees? Has that been discussed by the sector?

I concur with most of the questions raised by my colleagues. With regard to Seanad reform, anyone attending a higher education institution should be able to vote in the Seanad election. Should the franchise be extended to every citizen?

Mr. Michael Carmody

Many of the issues are interrelated. I cannot comment on behalf of individual colleges on deficits. We are in challenging times in the institute of technology sector but, fundamentally, we try to manage the budget as we get it and do what has to be done. Tralee IT is running a deficit this year and will do so next year, but we are using funds accumulated over the past number of years to cover ourselves during that period. However, the sector must also examine generating revenue and the international issue comes into play in this regard. We are being asked to provide support in the current severe economic crisis and we have a role in the context of the large increase in unemployment.

The university presidents made a doomsday presentation in grave tones, saying Armageddon is around the corner in the context of funding. Does Mr. Carmody not subscribe to that on behalf of the institutes?

Mr. Michael Carmody

It is not Armageddon but it will become a difficult situation and it probably relates to the issue of how we will fund higher education going forward. Most colleges are in a deficit and the question is how to manage it, whether that is by cutting back on programmes and staffing in certain areas, which we cannot do at the moment. The institutes must also examine revenue generation. We cannot totally rely on State support going forward and that presents substantial opportunities.

For example, we are an English speaking country and, therefore, there are huge opportunities. Approximately 6% of our student population is international whereas the equivalent figure in the UK is 14% while in Australia, the world leader, it is 19%. There is huge scope for growth in that area and that will generate funding.

Dr. Tim Creedon

I agree with Mr. Carmody. It is a challenging time. We are all meeting our staff and having state of the nation discussions with them. The staff are coming forward and they realise they must work with us to solve the budget problems. Hopefully, this will be a temporary situation but we need to meet and match them. That has always been the case, as Mr. Carmody said, in the institutes. If that is the challenge in front of us, we will meet it. However, we have made statements — I issued one yesterday — that services will have to be curtailed and they will not be what we would love in an ideal situation, but we must match our activities to our funding.

Dr. Mary Meaney

We all agree on the absolute necessity to put education at the centre of economic recovery. One of the big issues in all of this is while we will endeavour to manage our budgets as tightly as we can, this will have some impact on students but we need to be careful as a country that we do not starve something that can regenerate and give us the opportunity to hopefully help the country out of the desperate situation it is in. We need to keep that absolutely at the core to our thinking in any discussion on funding for higher education and right through the education system from preschool to PhD level, as Dr. Travers said.

Mr. Michael Carmody

Reference was made to the UCD-TCD merger and collaboration. Fundamentally, we believe collaborations are essential in any activity. The recent strategic innovation fund at national level means we have worked together as a sector on certain activities. Within my area, the Shannon consortium has worked well with the University of Limerick, Mary Immaculate College and Limerick IT. Collaboration is an essential feature going forward. We cannot operate in our own little silos doing our own thing. It is an essential feature. Perhaps Dr. Creedon, who is an expert on research, will comment on that.

Dr. Tim Creedon

I am surprised at the song and dance around this collaboration and I hope it has nothing to do with the fact there is a €300 million call out under PRTLI 5 at the moment. Collaborations occur at all times. All the colleges are involved in collaborations under rounds 1 to 4 of the PRTLI and the strategic innovation fund. UCD, TCD and all the higher education colleges in Dublin are in the Dublin Regional Higher Education Alliance and we collaborate through that. I am not certain what is particularly different or novel about this collaboration. It is open knowledge in Dublin for some months that UCD and TCD have been trying to come together on a proposal under PRTLI 5. That is part of the issue.

Other alliances are forming in the same way. The concept of collaboration is critical. We need to bring our resources together and to optimise and utilise the various elements of the resources. As part of that, we need to examine how we are utilising the funds. We have a concern that a high proportion of the funds in research are going towards oriented basic fundamental research. Even the funding agencies are suddenly realising that this cannot deliver what we need in the short term. There needs to be greater emphasis on applied research and supporting innovation. We have put forward proposals. Within the IT sector, as we are regionally based, a systematic approach is needed to innovation to work with small companies to enable them to take next generation products. There are many good examples of how that can be done. We need further investment to systematise it and to start to deliver activity and science in the regions.

Mr. Paul Hannigan

The issue of collaboration is important. Letterkenny IT is in discussions with the University of Ulster through a strategic innovation fund project and it is important that we talk to its officials for the development of higher education capacity in our region. With regard to the question on the university alliance, we are talking about trying to expand the higher education capacity in the regions in which we operate. That is important from our perspective and we support collaboration that can benefit the people living in the regions in which we operate.

Mr. Michael Carmody

I refer to the national technological university issue. Fundamentally, 12 of the institutes have come together to propose this. That is an important structure going forward, even though the institutes are autonomous institutions in their own right through legislation.

Which institutes are not involved?

Mr. Michael Carmody

Waterford IT. DIT has its own legislation but it is supportive of the concept.

Are Waterford and Cork institutes of technology excluded?

Mr. Michael Carmody

Cork IT is included.

Is Waterford IT the only institute not included in the proposal?

Mr. Michael Carmody

Yes, of the 13 institutes. It has made a section 9 appeal.

It has made a university bid.

Mr. Michael Carmody

We propose the institute sector should come together as a national technological university, as a consortium. In terms of collaboration there is further strength in having a——

Could Mr. Carmody outline how that would work? I am familiar with the National University of Ireland structure, which involves three colleges. It would be different with 12 or 13 colleges. Have the institutes fleshed out the proposal?

Mr. Michael Carmody

As we speak, we are in the process of doing detailed work on the proposal. Obviously, there would be a central unit, which as a minimum would have the power to confer awards. We see it as operating in the area of PhD research or level ten to give it an economy of scale at that level in terms of international visibility, no more than the TCD-UCD concept.

What is the timeframe for the completion of that proposal?

Mr. Michael Carmody

We will have the final proposal within a short timeframe. We have submitted the outline proposal and will have the detailed proposal within a timeframe of two months.

How would Mr. Carmody describe the reaction from Marlborough Street on this?

Mr. Michael Carmody

The reaction towards the concept would be generally favourable. Now we must go into the detail. There are certain economic advantages, such as the common delivery of shared services, for example, procurement or the management information system. We could also co-ordinate research and present a common brand internationally rather than having 13 separate organisations. Ireland is a small country and I doubt we can afford an effective marketing strategy as 13 separate institutes. That is not the way to go. We see the common brand as a strong element of our proposal.

The title of a university is very important in that regard. We know from current international marketing that the title of institute of technology is not generally understood and, internationally, it is not known what we do. There are some examples of institutes using the title, but they are universities in their own right and are well known, such as MIT. They are long-standing institutions. In general we find it a difficulty internationally in getting people to understand what we are, whereas the university concept and title is well understood.

Does Mr. Carmody feel that designation as a national technological university would strengthen the hand of the institutes in terms of translating research into jobs? Would the institutes have stronger bidding power and be able to give greater outcomes?

Mr. Michael Carmody

I think we would. Perhaps Dr. Creedon might deal with that issue.

Perhaps he could explain how it could enhance economic recovery. Deputy Hayes mentioned the TCD-UCD collaboration which could contribute 40,000 jobs. I do not know where the evidence is to support that but we need that sort of information on the proposal now.

I presume there is the potential to create jobs. Perhaps Dr. Creedon will elaborate on that.

Dr. Tim Creedon

When it comes to research, it is an international market. We need to know this when seeking partners throughout Europe or further afield. They need to understand the model from which we are pitching. That model has moved on in the rest of the world over the past 15 years and it is very difficult to find the model to pitch to in terms of descriptor. However, when we sit down and work with them, they recognise our model. We are recognised in some areas. For example, we would all have an Erasmus university charter and would be recognised at that status. We are also members of the European credit transfer scheme with all universities throughout Europe and of such groups as the Irish American Higher Education Research Organisation.

We are pitching to all these but we still have to explain our model. Difficult as it is for us to explain it here or internationally, the committee can imagine what it is like for young students leaving higher education and entering the international jobs market. One of their first difficulties when they get an interview is to try and explain what an institute of technology means in the current environment. What it may have meant 30 years ago is one thing but what it means today and what it equates to is difficult to explain.

I accept that. However, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, MIT, is a world acclaimed Ivy League college. Therefore, the term institute of technology is not a new concept worldwide.

Dr. Tim Creedon

I agree, but it is probably misleading to equate MIT and our institutes of technology. The danger is that this is what some people do. They suggest their institute is the equivalent of MIT or Zurich Institute of Technology, whose president I heard say he had 25 Nobel laureates among his graduates. It is misleading for people to presume our institutes of technology are equivalent. We would not pretend that is what we are.

How will the concept of a national technological university be clearer? The ITs will have to sell that concept.

Dr. Tim Creedon

It is an internationally recognised sector. We have visited various places over the past two years and have seen the equivalent in Malaysia, Europe and the United States.

Mr. Paul Hannigan

The question of job creation and the contribution to economic development are important issues from the point of view of the institutes, leaving aside the title of national technological university. For example, we have done some work in Letterkenny on the economic impact an institute has in its own region in terms of the multiplier effect and the level of investment it makes. From our perspective, the contribution annually to the local region is approximately €100 million per annum. This money does not leak out of the region but stays in it and is the result of employing more than 300 staff and catering for 2,500 full-time students. There is a knock-on effect in terms of students staying in the region, getting employment in it and contributing to its overall development. This important story must be told.

Recently, we benchmarked our performance against one of the multinationals that operates in the Letterkenny area by applying the same model. We discovered the institute contributes twice as much economically to the region as the multinational that employs 600 people. We must look at the institutes not just as stand-alone educational institutions but also in terms of the contribution they make to the wider economic development of the region and the knock-on effect this has in terms of employment and the retention of graduates in the region.

How did the institute measure the €100 million?

Mr. Paul Hannigan

We developed a social accounting matrix model with a university in the United States which was developed on the data arising from the Border, midlands and west regional assembly. It was a funded project developed four or five years ago. I understand Tralee IT will now adopt that model to do the same thing in its region. It is an important measure and is validated by the Central Statistics Office.

Even still, Donegal has been hit very hard jobs-wise.

Mr. Paul Hannigan

Let us look at that.

I make that remark respectfully.

Mr. Paul Hannigan

I am answering the question respectfully. Over the past ten years Donegal took the hit, in terms of major unemployment, ahead of everybody else, for example, with Fruit of the Loom, Unifi and similar losses. People who lost employment then have probably managed to return to education or find work elsewhere through the relative boom over the period. There are issues now in terms of major job losses in construction and these are having an impact. However, what we and other institutes of technology are doing is working in the area of labour activation. We are trying to get people who have been made unemployed and who may never have been previously unemployed back into education and retraining in anticipation of an improvement in the situation. Many positive things are happening to try to address unemployment positively and initiatives have been taken in this regard throughout the country.

We must try to look at the positives in terms of the contribution being made by the institutes. I was talking to a person prior to this meeting about the retention of graduates in one's region. The Higher Education Authority has done some work on this recently and for 2006, outside of the four major population centres of Dublin, Cork, Galway and Limerick, Donegal is ranked fifth in terms of ability to retain its graduates.

Mr. Hannigan has provided very positive information. It is new information that the institute can generate €100 million or twice the value of a multinational employing 600 people. That is powerful information to provide to the committee in terms of a national recovery. If that is the case, there is a clear direction for the country to start searching for recovery. We are all the time trying to attract foreign direct investment, but have some difficulty doing that in the current climate. Perhaps we should redirect our actions towards the area suggested by Mr. Hannigan.

I thank Senator Healy Eames for her valid contribution. I call Deputy Quinn who has been waiting to ask a question.

I have two specific questions. I advise the institutes to expect nothing from Marlborough Street with regard to status as a technological university. The institutes are on their own but they have friends here. When can they deliver us the draft heads of a Bill? We need a realistic date for delivery because time is not on their side. How will the institutes market the national technological university of Ireland internationally? Our current economic model of foreign direct investment will probably come to an end with this generation and we will have to get back to selling services internationally. In view of English language usage, education is a major asset. How does the delegation envisage the institutes and colleges can start marketing Ireland as a centre of educational excellence?

Mr. Gerry Murray

As the one person here who spent a lot of his career in the Department of Education and Science, I thank the Chairman. We have done the work on the idea of the national technological university. The Deputy is correct. There is probably one more issue, apart altogether from what the centre might look like. We are concerned here with a HETAC, FETAC, NQAI change as well. One should not be a quality assurance agency as well as being an awarder of qualifications. We may be able to provide a solution to that. At present I would guess we will not get an answer in the middle of a higher education strategy exercise but we will make a submission to that exercise based on the NTU.

If I may interrupt. We are in a war for economic survival at the moment. We do not have the luxury of the time-wasting that has permeated this country for the past four years. The institutes and colleges will have to come forward with a blueprint that we can use because the Department will not do it. We do not have the luxury of waiting for the Commission on Taxation.

The indication was that a submission would be made fairly soon. If the Department chooses not to act on that submission, that is another story.

Mr. Gerry Murray

We will produce the answer for it. On the international material, as a civil servant, I lost count of the number of countries that made submissions to us about education and every single one of them asked about institutes of technology.

Mr. Gerry Murray

They asked what they did and how could they be established in their country. Bahrain has followed our example.

What role can the delegation play that would enhance our recovery?

Mr. Gerry Murray

We have helped Bahrain to establish an institute of technology.

What was received in return?

Mr. Gerry Murray

I was put on the board of that institute. We have helped Bahrain over the past five years to reform its entire education system. Ireland was asked to bid to establish and run an institute of technology, we got to the final two bids and New Zealand won it. Notwithstanding the fact that New Zealand won the bid, people have again asked Ireland for assistance.

Mention was made of the extraordinary feat managed by Australia in terms of higher education as an industry. It is the largest services export industry in Australia and the third largest export of all its industries. I am aware that committee members are on our side with regard to the NTU but the ambassadors in Malaysia and Singapore have told us they are struggling with our title.

We have to move along because other groups are waiting. I ask Senator Keaveney to make a brief contribution of 30 seconds and then I will ask Mr. Carmody to sum up.

I commend the institute I know best, which is Letterkenny Institute of Technology. It has been ahead of the posse on many issues. It could be because it has experienced many of the difficulties before other institutes and it has provided good examples of how to reach out and work with, as opposed to compete against, other institutes. It has worked on a cross-Border basis with Magee College and the institutes in Derry.

It is often said to us that the institutes of technology are competing against each other in a number of different subjects and that it might be better if they became more subject-specific and expert in certain fields. For instance, engineering could be concentrated in a particular geographical area. Would such co-operation be possible or is it too idealistic? If we are going to have the best institutes of technology then we should have specialisation and some of the institutes looking for university status may evolve that way because of specialisation. A point was made about retention rates, the fee differentials and the battle with the North. Surely it should not be a case of a battle with the North but rather the institutes establishing themselves as the best in their field and therefore drawing in the clientele.

I appreciate the time constraints. There is a crisis in the area of finance and the delegation has presented some innovative ideas in that regard. We can talk all day about being on 6% while the UK is on 12% and make reference to Australia. What is being done to attract foreign investment and what can this committee do? What barriers are blocking such investment? I believe such investment is the way forward.

The committee looks forward to the final submission and we would appreciate a copy of it. I invite Mr. Carmody to respond to the subsequent questions and sum up.

Mr. Michael Carmody

To deal first with the question about international connections, I will give a practical example of how it works. Last year we were informed by the HSE that nursing places in the university and institutes of technology sector were being cut back fairly substantially. We have made contacts with Saudi Arabia in particular and we are finalising a deal that those places will be filled by income-generating Saudi students. This is a benefit to both the institutes and the university sector. This is just one example of what can be done. We are also in collaboration with the RCSI regarding medical students. There are many opportunities and we are only scraping the surface of the sector. Other institutes have activities in China and so forth.

With regard to the issue of economic recovery and money allocated to FÁS which was mentioned, we must bear in mind that FÁS is involved in one element of training. People becoming unemployed will have a range of qualifications at this stage but they may need VTOS qualifications. In addition, there are further education PLC programmes together with programmes provided by our sector in higher education, the university sector and FÁS training. Any package being considered would have to look at the full range of activities. We must take account of what we want people to do, which is to upskill and to get qualifications. If Ireland is going to recover it has to be working in the innovation-led areas. The money should flow where we want it to go.

Was it a bad idea that the entire training budget went to FÁS?

Mr. Michael Carmody

We must decide what the nation wants to achieve and we need to distribute the funding to achieve across the various sectors.

The issue of the means test was raised. It is an income-based means test and does not take any account of capital, which I believe it would need to. I am referring to farms and the capital value that people might possess. It is based solely on income but we need to look at the broader issues. The disadvantage of introducing fees was mentioned. As a sector we cater for mature students and for the socio-economically disadvantaged. Higher education is expensive and we would be very reluctant to see further burdens placed on people, especially the unemployed, who find it difficult enough to access higher education. This would make it worse.

There are definite issues to be dealt with in the Border areas in terms of both students moving and significant revenue lost. We see ourselves as quality institutions but we have to be cognisant of the reality that if there is a fee differential, people will follow money.

With regard to the rationalisation of programmes, following on from collaboration, we need to look at the programme provision across the country, both in the university sector and in our sector. There should be a broad range of programme provision at level 6 but narrowing at level 7 and level 8, as the more expensive resources are confined to fewer areas. I would not envisage a complete range at all levels — local provision has been a success for the institutes and this should not be eliminated.

Returning to the issue of NTU, this reflects what we do. We are offering programmes at honours degree level, at master's and doctorate level and we have research facilities. These are what universities have traditionally provided and we believe our students deserve the same opportunities.

What are the barriers?

Mr. Michael Carmody

At national level, the Government would not like to create 13 or 14 more universities because to do so would be unsustainable.

The English example has been disastrous.

Mr. Michael Carmody

Yes, we have a coherent plan. We are not trying to change our mission.

If institute of technology lecturers were to become university lecturers, would it have cost implications?

Mr. Michael Carmody

No, that is not an issue. Fundamentally, we want to retain our mission, which is providing relevant programmes for industry. We do not want to become universities.

Is there a hidden financial charge to making the transition?

Mr. Michael Carmody

As far as we can determine, that is not the case.

We will move on to the issue of teacher training.

I welcome the delegations. I am inclined to concur with Seamus Heaney who supervised one of my first teaching practices when I was in Carysfort College. I listened to the contributions on funding, fees and quality assurance. On fees, the institutes of technology and colleges of education do not appear to be concerned about the reintroduction of fees. Why is that the case?

The delegations did not take a collective view on the issue.

I await a response from the spokespersons. Deputy Brian Hayes asked why the universities are engaged in a big push to reintroduce fees, whereas the institutes of technology and colleges of education, which have many similar costs, have not done the same. All the education institutions are involved in the same field in many respects. The colleges of education produce fine graduates and provide an important service in educating primary school teachers and providing in-service training for primary teachers.

My questions will focus on quality assurance. When I was working in Mary Immaculate College a few years ago, major pressure was applied to have a four year degree introduced. Is this no longer the case? From lecturing in the college and supervising teaching practice, I know one cannot deliver in three years the programme required to meet today's demands in terms of special educational needs, inclusion, English as a second language and so forth. The environment has completely changed and the three year programme no longer meets current needs. With the best intentions in the world, the three year programme provides good core curriculum professional development of pre-service teachers.

Child protection is a major issue. How many hours of pre-service training do graduates receive? Our guests will be aware of the scandals of clerical, family and institutional abuse of children. With the proper training teachers are ideally placed to recognise some of the manifestations of abuse. We recently discovered the horrors of the Roscommon incest case and learned that the children in question went to school unkempt and infested with lice. No one could miss this. I want to know more about empowerment and training of teachers at that level.

Why is the Teaching Council accrediting courses provided by colleges of education? The council is supposed to have responsibility in the area of practising teachers. Why was accreditation from the Teaching Council considered necessary given that the courses are accredited? I am interested to learn how the delegation justifies the involvement of the Teaching Council at pre-service level.

I endorse the questions asked by Senator Healy Eames and await responses with interest.

I have a concern about the quality of the education of secondary school teachers. Significant resources are invested in the education of primary school teachers for self-evident reasons. However, I have serious reservations about the hit and miss nature of HDip courses.

There have been many positive developments. Dr. Don Thornhill spoke at the NAPD conference last week and repeated some of his comments on the National Competitiveness Council in a newspaper. While we are fortunate that the top quartile of applicants from the leaving certificate examinations are applying for teacher training courses, we should not take this for granted as it occurs by accident as opposed to as a result of a conscious policy. Why is this happening and how can we improve secondary school teachers?

None of us admits that there is an elephant in the room, namely, that 21% of youngsters drop out of secondary school and many of these young people end up in Mountjoy Prison with PhDs in crime. For the past 25 years, during which I was also a member of a Government, we have consistently refused to address this issue. Why are so many children dropping out of secondary school? Is this occurring at a comparable rate in other countries?

I must attend a division in the Dáil as I am not paired. I ask Deputy Quinn, who is paired, to chair the meeting in my absence. Before I leave, however, I will throw in my tuppence worth. The teacher training colleges do not have a uniform position on the issue of fees. I would be interested to hear the views of the representatives of all the colleges present on this issue.

Senator Healy Eames referred to extending teacher training courses to four years. Is this not covered by the master's degree? What are our guests' views on having four year courses?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn took the Chair.

Dr. Pauric Travers

I will address a number of points before handing over to my colleagues. On fees, Senator Healy Eames appears to have misinterpreted my remarks. The colleges do not take a formal view on fees. There are no differences between the colleges on this issue and it is not as if the funding issue does not bear substantially on us because it does. Our position on fees is that the funding of education is a matter of public policy. Higher education has expanded significantly in recent years and funding per student has not kept pace with its development. It is necessary to increase funding of higher education. To do this, one has a number of choices; one pays through public subvention, fees or a combination of both. This is a matter of political choice.

In the case of the colleges — certainly in the case of my college — we would prefer if fees were not reintroduced. Our view is that education generally, including higher education, benefits society at large. People underestimate the willingness of citizens, provided they are provided with an option of having a quality education system or, for that matter, a quality health system, to pay for it through taxation. It will have to be paid for one way or another.

Some of those in the higher education system who are the most vocal advocates of the return of fees are attracted by the promise of increased discretionary income for their own institutions. I believe this position is mistaken because there is no indication that a change in the current fee payment system would result in any benefits to third level institutions in the current financial circumstances. I do not believe there will be a net gain one way or the other.

It is difficult to comment further on the issue of fees without having details of what precisely will be proposed. Different options are available, of which the introduction of a student loan system is one. The system with which I am familiar, having spent time in Australia, is the graduate tax. There are strong attractions for a graduate tax because one pays the tax when one has graduated, but there are limitations with that system also because some people emigrate. If one's graduates are mobile and they emigrate then one does not pay the tax. If one is wealthy and can afford to, one can pay the money upfront. In our view it is a matter of public choice. Because of the values we cherish in terms of the public good and equity we tend to favour the financing of education through the taxation system. I invite my colleagues to contribute if they wish.

Dr. Anne O’Gara

I concur with Dr. Travers. Given the ethos of Coláiste Mhuire, Marino, we also get a number of students from non-traditional backgrounds so fees would impact on our college considerably. If there is to be a reintroduction of fees we would like it to be done in a way that would not be detrimental to those who come from non-traditional backgrounds in the context of access to third level education.

Teaching generally has a higher proportion of students who come from those non-traditional backgrounds and it is something we very much cherish. In Marino also, all of our students have a placement in a designated area of disadvantage, a DEIS I area. It is critically important for us in the wider context that that kind of commitment to the common good is maintained and cherished.

Ms Marie McLoughlin

I also concur fully with what has been said by my colleagues. A number of speakers have referred to the need to keep education at the centre and not to lose sight of the importance of education during these turbulent times. I come from a Border county and I believe the abolition of fees could result in a spill-over into universities and colleges in the north of Ireland and that we would lose some of our brain power to that jurisdiction and to other areas also. I support the retention of the system as it stands, for the good of the country.

Dr. Pauric Travers

In response to the question on child protection, all our students are prepared for social, personal and health education, which is part of the primary curriculum. They do that as part of the course, which includes child protection. Students have lectures on the legal provisions in that area and what is best practice in dealing with child protection issues. I do not have the exact number for the Senator who asked how many hours are devoted to that programme but I am sure we can get that information for her.

She also asked inquired why the Teaching Council accredits our courses given that they are long established. We have no difficulty with the Teaching Council. It is the professional body regulating the teaching profession and it is appropriate that teaching would be regulated in the same way as other professions. Part of the regulation of a profession involves regulating entry into the profession. A complaint we had previously, which we brought to the attention of an Oireachtas committee, was the lack of proper regulation of initial teacher education. Therefore, we have no difficulty with the notion that we have dual accreditation. Our courses are accredited by our own universities and in the future will be accredited by the Teaching Council. We look forward to that. It is not a difficulty.

We campaigned long and hard for a four-year BEd degree. We argued that Ireland is out of step internationally with our competitors in terms of the duration of initial teacher education programmes.

What is the nature of the resistance?

Dr. Pauric Travers

I suspect it is financial. I have to admit there would be a financial implication and, therefore, it is less likely that we will make progress on a fourth year. In fairness to the Department of Education and Science, it has done a good deal of work in the area of teacher induction. Once a teacher has a three year BEd, he or she has a probationary period. There is a pilot national programme on induction involving a good deal of structured support and mentoring. The scheme has been on a pilot basis, like many other things, for a very long time. We need a national system of induction. The Department has tended to lend its resources towards that rather than the idea of a fourth year.

There is a significant curriculum overload at primary teacher education level. If one looks at what is happening, especially in the high-achieving system in Finland, for example, there is a five-year qualification period. If we want to maintain the status and quality of the degree, ultimately we will have to move in that direction. That is unlikely in the short term given the current financial situation but we would strongly support it.

We welcome the comments made about the quality of primary education. The concern expressed about secondary teacher education would be best dealt with by our colleagues in the university system. It does seem somewhat strange that we have highly skilled and highly qualified bachelor of education graduates who cannot easily move to teach at secondary level, whereas it would be perfectly appropriate for them to do so with some upskilling. The movement does go in the other direction, as people from universities and the institutes of technology with arts degrees move into primary teaching through the graduate diploma. It is a pity there is not more movement in both directions.

How would Dr. Travers suggest we free up the system to get that movement?

Dr. Pauric Travers

It is a matter of recognition. Ultimately, the Department of Education and Science and the Teaching Council would have to agree. If one has highly qualified graduates who are teaching in primary schools at sixth class level I do not see why there should not be a promotion of continuity. One of the great failures in the system is that lack of continuity between primary and second level. Much of the fallout comes because children do not make the transition from primary level to second level. If there was more transition between primary and secondary in terms of the teaching force that would improve the system.

In fairness to second level, there have been significant developments. A number of concurrent degrees have been introduced, for example, in science education, as a way of trying to deal with the problems encountered by science, where students can take science and education at the same time. That approach is resulting in some improvements.

I get the sense that none of this energy is going to come from Marlborough St. If it does not come from there, I do not see it coming from the trade unions per se. Where will that transition occur? There is a very open and progressive curriculum at primary level and there is a good third level sector but we have a very rigid second level sector based on learning by rote. I have a 14 year old and two adult children who have gone through the system. It seems to me that that area needs to be reformed and modernised. Who will drive that process?

Dr. Anne O’Gara

I will comment on that. I think there has been a significant change at second level in recent years with the introduction of the leaving certificate applied and the junior certificate schools programme. Prior to taking up my position in Marino, my background is that I taught for more than 20 years in schools serving designated areas of disadvantage. Significant progress has been made in trying to ensure that the second level system is more inclusive. I am conscious that we lose 800 children between primary and second level every year and approximately 3,500 before the junior certificate.

Interesting studies have been done in that area, which show that a child of eight or nine will tell a teacher he or she cannot do something but by the age of ten or 11 the situation is that he or she cannot be bothered. That is evident when, for example, children stop doing homework. Literacy is a significant issue in that context. Literacy is still a huge barrier in the context of commitment from young people and as they move from one sector to the next.

Regarding the transition from primary to second level, one of the issues we always identified was that the textbook one gets in first year is retained until third year while at primary level the textbooks are graded. In that sense, textbooks can be very inaccessible to children who have learning difficulties. Therefore, one of the significant considerations and concerns for us in the colleges of education is recent Government policy on special education and learning support.

Deputy Paul Gogarty took the Chair.

Are there any further questions?

I would like to hear the answers to my questions.

They can be read from the record.

I am keen to know the position on the four-year degree.

There was a positive response on that.

Dr. Pauric Travers

We are strongly in favour of the four year degree. It is necessary but is unlikely to be achieved in the current financial circumstances. Compared to our international competitors, we are out of line. If we want to improve significantly the quality of initial teacher education, we need to move towards a four-year degree.

Is it a question of money?

Dr. Pauric Travers

It is a financial issue.

Is there will on the part of the Department?

Dr. Pauric Travers

There has been in the past but, in the current circumstances, the Department is so preoccupied with making——

There was lots of money at the time of the proposal. Why was it not implemented then?

Dr. Pauric Travers

I do not know. Former Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Michael Woods, initially expressed a view in favour of the four-year degree, as did a number of other Ministers. As with a number of other reports, the report on this sat on a bench.

Dr. Anne O’Gara

Possibly the emphasis has changed in that significant support now exists, in theory at least, for an induction programme. We have some slight concerns that it is a case of one or the other.

On the issue of primary teachers going into the classes, do the colleges of education have a role?

Dr. Anne O’Gara

Yes, we do.

Do they prefer that?

Dr. Anne O’Gara

As matters stand, bearing in mind the continuum of teacher education, there is currently a three year BEd. There is an excellent pilot programme but it is extremely limited in that it is not being rolled out nationally. Continuing professional development is also an issue.

In the overall context, we are very much in favour of a four-year degree. We are quite concerned that we may need to consider a five year course in which teachers would specialise and come out of college with a master's degree in early childhood education, special education or learning support.

I strongly believe the colleges of education should be moving towards a four year degree, at the very least. The induction role should involve the Department and the practising teachers. I refer to the idea of the master teacher. It is not a role for the colleges of education, which have quite a brief in terms of pre-service and in-service education. Perhaps there could be a supervisory role but that would be a cop-out by the Department.

When was the most recent formal communication from the Department of Education and Science on the issue of a four year degree course?

Dr. Pauric Travers

I would not be able to say. Like many things, I am not sure it was ever refused; rather, it simply did not happen.

I propose to the members that we write to the Minister for Education and Science seeking the Department's position on four year courses at teacher training colleges, expressing concern that we may be at a disadvantage compared with some of our EU cohorts due to the absence of such courses. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I agree absolutely on the four year BEd proposal.

The clerk will formalise the wording, but the proposal has been agreed in any event.

The clerk informed me there is consensus regarding the opposition to third level fees. Given that the USI representatives will be before us next, I, as Chairman, want to put that on the record. Various models have been suggested by parliamentarians and the heads of the universities and institutes of technology. While it was said there is no conclusive position across the board, the consensus that there should be no third level fees reinforces a certain message.

Was Senator Doherty present for some of the contribution?

I missed most of it but saw it in written format. I had to vote in the Seanad.

The USI, Aontas na Mac Léinn, the secondary level students' organisation and bodies such as Conradh na Gaeilge have formulated a proposal on teacher training colleges, particularly in respect of teachers' standard of Irish. It is obviously a major concern that there are teachers who are not fluent or completely competent in Irish. In such circumstances, it is very difficult for them to teach children. One can see clearly the impact that teacher fluency makes in a school. The aforementioned organisations proposed to increase the amount of time students spend in the Gaeltacht such that a period of a year would be spent there, broken into different blocks over the course of four years. What are the delegates' views on this?

It was proposed also that there be a separate Irish language teacher training college within the Gaeltacht, and that all courses there would be through Irish. Has this been discussed and do the delegates subscribe to this view? Given that we are in the middle of Seachtain na Gaeilge, I believed it would be opportune to raise that issue today.

Dr. Pauric Travers

Dr. O'Gara's college offers a scrúdú le haghaidh cáilíochta sa Ghaeilge, the qualification for teachers who qualify abroad. It is well documented there are grounds for concern regarding the quality or standard of Irish. A number of reports have documented that the standard has declined consistently over time. This reflects trends in wider society and not simply trends in the colleges of education. The colleges of education bear considerable responsibility in the sense that we are responsible for improving the quality of Irish spoken by students. Obviously one must work with the students as they come in. A good deal of attention is paid to this and we would welcome the enhancement of resources for that purpose. Our students do spend a period in the Gaeltacht and it would be sensible for them to spend a longer period. I am not sure it would be feasible to ask them to spend a year there. It would not be reasonable but it would depend on the supports and resources available.

We have discussed the proposal that there be an Irish college located in a Gaeltacht. I can understand the regional arguments for it. I would not be very supportive of the proposal as we would prefer to see the colleges of education offering courses in Irish through Irish for those students who wish to avail of them or who are able to do so. Increasingly in my college, the postgraduate diploma, which is for those who already have a degree and want to become primary teachers, allows students to take more of the programme through Irish. This is having a positive impact.

Am I correct that some elements of the scrúdú le haghaidh cáilíochta sa Ghaeilge were outsourced some years ago? There is anecdotal evidence that the marks seem to have improved as a consequence. Have the delegates an opinion on this? If they do not want to answer the question, it is fair enough. I know quite a few people in the teaching fraternity who seem to believe that the outsourcing resulted in improved marks. Do the same stringent standards apply?

Dr. Anne O’Gara

It has been outsourced to Marino Institute of Education for the past three years. Last year, more than 700 students did the scrúdú le haghaidh cáilíochta sa Ghaeilge. This year approximately 580, or almost 600, students engaged in education programmes abroad returned to do the exam. During the period in which the exam has been organised and managed by Marino Institute of Education, significant new resource materials have been made available. There are now courses for students who want to do the scrúdú le haghaidh cáilíochta sa Ghaeilge in education centres throughout the country. The resource materials, the fearais, the book that includes the full programme, have helped considerably. We bring the teagascóirí from the various education centres nationally to Marino to train. There is a list of recommended teagascóirí. When the Chairman says the marks have improved, he should note the whole system has improved. It is very fair and transparent. In the overall context, there is the practical element of observing the teaching of Irish in the classroom, as well as the examination and the oral Irish in Marino. We had a meeting with the Department of Education and Science yesterday and it is happy the programme is being run in an efficient manner. There have not been quite as many complaints from trade unions and other bodies about the particular examination.

That is a great development for the many students returning from colleges such as St. Mary's University College, London and colleges in Wales and Scotland. It will allow them to avail of the course and teach in Irish schools. It adds to the richness of the teaching system. They may not have had the honours grade in Irish to get into St. Patrick's College or Marino but we need to be more flexible to include them in the system.

Dr. Anne O’Gara

These students may return with a significant knowledge and different insights around working with children with special needs and the differentiation of the curriculum. However, as a former schools inspector, I would have some concerns about their knowledge of the Irish curriculum. It is focused on the teacher as a facilitator of learning situations and building in children skills for lifelong learning. It is not as a prescriptive or narrow as it may be in other jurisdictions.

I am familiar with one school in the UK with students from 56 different nationalities. We now have schools in Ireland with 36 different nationalities. That is built in more at a core level where it is openly at an elective level here. I take the point about the teacher as a facilitator of learning but that is a relatively new designation from the revised primary curriculum and in-service training which I hope will continue to be supported. Until recently, there was a prescriptive component to teacher education. My experience at pre-service level is still quite prescriptive.

Dr. Anne O’Gara

We have an elective course for students in Marino whereby they complete their teaching practice in Gaeltacht and Irish language medium schools. We also have a strategic link with St. Mary's, Belfast. In the current economic climate, all these initiatives will have to be reviewed. However, this is a good initiative for students. Irish language and culture is a very strong element in Marino. Up to 30% of our students come from Gaeltacht and Irish language medium schools.

Ms Marie McLoughlin

One issue that underlies the standard of Irish among teachers is the marks required to get into teaching. In my day, one needed a B grade in leaving certificate honours Irish but now it is a C grade. The colleges strive to ensure the students are immersed in Irish culture. Irish is spoken as the mainstay language among administrative and academic staff. It strives to ensure the students are confident, competent, comfortable and enthusiastic about the language. When they leave the college, their standards have improved. We can see that through the scrúdú cainte.

However, it is the next stage in their career that affects their language. If one does not practise the language, it will go rusty. This is where continuing professional development is extremely important. The support services are making huge strides in this particular area. There is no facility, however, for a teacher to take three weeks in the year to immerse themselves in a Gaeltacht environment.

Will Dr. Travers sum up?

Dr. Pauric Travers

I have clarified the issues concerning fees. We welcome the initiative the committee proposed on the four-year BEd. The colleges participate in the national pilot project in induction but our role is in training mentors in schools. It is important we are involved in that. A key principle is that if one is isolated in initial teacher education, one gets quickly out of touch with the practice. If one is meeting teachers at all levels, however, there is a challenge to the teacher. I am the chairman of a board of management of a primary school. It is a salutary experience to interview one's own graduates and others' because one sees them from a different perspective. One sees the deficiencies in one's own college and others'.

Have the colleges thought of establishing an umbrella body to enhance their needs?

Dr. Pauric Travers

We do have an umbrella body, CHoICE.

I really am thinking more along the lines of an NUI concept.

Dr. Pauric Travers

It is a concept we have explored with some occasional discussion. We are happy, however, with our current status. The three smaller colleges have good working relationships with Trinity College Dublin. So too has Mary Immaculate College, Limerick with the University of Limerick and Drumcondra with Dublin City University. It is important our autonomy is maintained, precisely because if we were absorbed there would be losses in teacher education and its responsiveness to schools.

The Irish language requirement has an impact on the teaching profession in schools. In classrooms with up to 40 different ethnic groups, as can be found in north Dublin, it is important the adults the children come into contact with reflect that diversity. If one wants to have more Nigerian or Polish teachers, the Irish language requirement comes into play. It is possible to address that in a way that does justice to and does not diminish the cultural centrality of Gaeilge.

The committee might invite Dr. Travers back to answer the question why after 14 years spent teaching Irish to a cohort, they still cannot speak it. I am one of that cohort. My father was a gaeilgeoir. I cannot speak Irish but I can speak two other languages reasonably fluently. This is not the elephant but the herd of elephants in the Irish educational room that no one is talking about.

If the Deputy wishes to propose it, we can fit it into the work programme.

I accept we cannot address it today. However, with a 21% rate of school drop-outs, illiteracy and multiculturalism to deal with in the educational system, we are still believing in a sacred cow regarding the Irish language that no one can talk about, let alone challenge.

I take the Deputy's point. The work programme, as he knows, is much more focused this session. We have tried to look at a number of key areas, such as higher education funding. It is fair to say that there have been people who have studied for the scrúdú le haghaidh cáilíochta sa Ghaeilge with no Irish, who have come out within the five year limit and passed with flying colours. Regardless of whether they are Nigerian or from Northern Ireland, it is testimony to the course, especially since it now has a countrywide outreach through the auspices of Marino.

Dr. Anne O’Gara

For the record I am actually president of Marino Institute of Education. Coláiste Mhuire Marino is an integral part of Marino Institute of Education and I would like to correct that for the record.

I would like to tell Dr. Travers before the session expires that Senator Fidelma Healy Eames is currently carrying out a rapporteur study on underachievement in second level education, The Way Forward, which includes research assistance from St. Patrick's College. It should be formally put on the record that this report will be ready to launch around October. Given the contribution of St. Patrick's, she would like to launch it in Drumcondra if that is agreeable.

It will be in the education research centre.

Dr. Pauric Travers

I would be delighted to facilitate that.

We will look at that again so.

That concludes this session, although the witnesses are welcome to remain in the Visitors Gallery for the USI presentation. I thank the representatives, the heads of the institutes of technology and the colleges of education for coming before the committee today. We have had a wide-ranging debate and could easily have gone on for another four or five hours. However, quite a considerable amount of expertise and new information has been put on the public record on issues of fundamental importance for the third level sector.

We will go into private session for a brief interlude while the USI representatives come forward.

The joint committee went into private session at 12.20 p.m. and resumed in public session at 12.25 p.m.

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