JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE debate -
Thursday, 9 Apr 2009

Education Issues: Discussion with Department of Education and Science.

Chairman

We will now hear a presentation by officials from the Department of Education and Science on a number of issues, including the proposed changes in the regulations to establish a primary school, an update on progress made in developing and rolling out the model of VEC patronage at primary level and the current position regarding a proposal by Educate Together to become a patron body for secondary schools.

I welcome Ms Carmody, the assistant secretary, Ms Catríona O'Brien, the principal officer of the central policy unit, Mr. Richard Dolan, the assistant principal officer, Mr. Frank Murray, chair of the commission on school accommodation, and Mr. Pat MacSitric, the assistant chief inspector of the Department of Education and Science.

I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing practice that we should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official by name, or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

There is much interest in today's presentation and therefore without any further recourse I ask Ms Carmody to commence the presentation.

Ms Ruth Carmody

The presentation relates to three discrete but interrelated areas. We propose that Mr. Murray will address the first item, which is the changes in the regulations to establish a primary school. I will deal with the update on the new patron model and Mr. Dolan will deal with the current position regarding the proposal by Educate Together to become a patron body.

Mr. Frank Murray

This submission will focus on outlining proposed changes in the regulations to establish a primary school, providing an update on progress made in developing and rolling out the new model of VEC patronage of primary schools, and stating the current position regarding the proposal by Educate Together to become the patron body for secondary schools.

On the proposed changes in the regulations to establish a primary school, a full review of the criteria and procedures for the recognition and establishment of new primary schools is currently being undertaken by the Commission on school accommodation. This review was announced by the Minister in September of last year. It is expected that the review will be completed and recommendations made to the Minister by the commission before the end of 2009. The Minister is also giving consideration to a range of issues concerning the establishment of new schools at post-primary level. I will deal with that in more detail later in my submission to the committee.

In the interim, it is not the Minister's intention to recognise new schools, except in areas where the increase in pupil numbers cannot be catered for by extending existing schools and where new schools are therefore warranted.

This means that new schools will not be established for reasons unrelated to demographic growth in areas where there is already sufficient school accommodation or where increases in pupil numbers can be catered for by extending existing school accommodation. While the review is ongoing, it is proposed that the Department will identify the areas where new schools are required based on detailed examination and analysis of the demographics of each area. These details will be circulated to all existing patron bodies and it will be open to those patrons to put themselves forward as patrons for any such new school. This process is already under way. The patron bodies were notified of these details in the past two weeks and there will be further discussions between the patrons and the Department on this matter in respect of specific areas of the country in the coming weeks and months.

This review does not mean there will be a complete cessation of the school building programme outside areas of rapid growth. In addition to the establishment of new schools in areas of rapid population growth, the normal building programme of modernising, replacing or extending existing schools will continue.

The steering group of the commission consists of representatives of all the partners in education and officials from the Department of Education and Science. The technical working group is a small expert group appointed to undertake the full review of the criteria and procedures for the recognition of new schools. The technical working group will prepare reports and recommendations for consideration by the overall steering group, which will then submit a final report and recommendations of the commission to the Minister. The first meeting of the groups took place in December 2008 and a number of meetings have been held since.

It is timely to review the criteria and procedures for the recognition of primary schools, given the changes that have taken place since the commission on school accommodation first began its work in 1998, in particular, changes in population growth and demands on the Exchequer. There also must be a correlation between the start-up of a new school and the capacity to provide appropriate accommodation. The term of office of the new schools advisory committee, NSAC, expired in August 2008. It is important that the policies and procedures for establishing new schools are brought fully up to date and that they are appropriate to meet the significant increase in the number of primary school pupils which we expect in the next five to ten years. The NSAC's terms of reference were originally drafted in 1998 and now need to be overhauled and updated to reflect current demographics. We must ensure we have a transparent and robust system for recognising new primary schools that will be appropriate for the changing circumstances.

Matters such as the minimum numbers of pupils required for the commencement of new schools, as well as a wide range of broad policy issues on school patronage and the approach to diversity of provision, must be carefully considered. There is no question, however, as has been suggested, that the review is intended to examine the number of small schools with a view to closures. The issue relating to numbers in so far as the review is concerned relates solely to the number of pupils required to establish a new school.

Ms Ruth Carmody

As members have our written submission, I will focus on the summary we have provided also.

Since representatives of the Department last appeared before the committee, the new model of community national school is being piloted in two locations in Dublin 15 since September 2008 under the temporary patronage of the Minister for Education and Science. The joint Department-VEC steering group set up to oversee the development of the new schools is continuing its work. The schools are being directly managed by a single manager as an interim measure pending the enactment of necessary legislation. Scoil Choilm has two classes, with 160 pupils, while Scoil Grainne has 70 pupils. The two schools are operating successfully in a spirit of partnership involving patrons, teachers, students, parents and the wider communities served by the schools. Links are being made to the broader community. The school aims to provide for religious education and faith formation during the school day for each of the main faith groups represented in accordance with the wishes of parents. The delivery of religious education is being developed on an action research basis which is being facilitated by County Dublin Vocational Education Committee.

Primary legislation is required to facilitate VEC involvement in the provision of primary education. The education patronage Bill is included in the Government's legislative programme. The heads of the Bill have been finalised and we hope it will go to the Government shortly.

A framework of evaluation criteria is being developed to assess the project, from its inception through to the ongoing operational stages. We expect it will provide a great deal of valuable information for the future.

Chairman

Members should have received a copy of the full submission and will be in a position to ask questions arising from it. That is the reason I asked for a copy of the executive summary.

Mr. Richard Dolan

I will go through the executive summary on the proposal made by Educate Together to become a patron body for secondary schools. Its application to become a patron body at second level will be examined in the context of the consideration of wider issues relating to the recognition process for second level schools. The Educate Together movement has formally applied to the Department for recognition as a patron body for post-primary schools which it proposes to operate on a multidenominational basis and with an ethos similar to that followed in its existing primary schools. Traditionally, the VEC sector has been the provider of multidenominational post-primary education. The application by Educate Together for recognition as a patron body at second level raises many issues concerning the provision of multidenominational education at post-primary level.

Chairman

The delegates will get an opportunity to deal with members' queries in more detail.

Deputy Ulick Burke

I welcome the departmental officials. My question is to Mr. Murray. How does the new model of community national school differ from the old ones in terms of patronage? In the pilot scheme I presume the Minister is the overall patron on a temporary basis. I am sure that in certain areas provision has been made in the curriculum for the customary religious education.

I want to ask about two aspects that are tied together which Mr. Murray might be able to sort out for me. As regards the minimum numbers required, is a number envisaged? Mr. Murray has said a school will not be provided other than in new growth areas. It has been stated by departmental officials and the Minister in written responses to representations made that there is an option for small national schools to be amalgamated and considered for the provision of new facilities. That runs contrary to the long-held view that the rural national school, small though it may be, is the central focus of any rural community.

The matter must be seen also in the light of the fact that religious management of national schools, as we have known it heretofore, will decline on the basis that the personnel required will no longer be available. In any sprawling rural parish there could be three or four national schools. Some Catholic bishops have indicated a desire to opt out of patronage of schools in certain cases and transfer responsibility to management. Following the first pilot schemes, will consideration be given by the Department, where there is such a desire and requests are made to the Department, to the VEC assuming patronage of many schools that probably will lose their existing structures, particularly when the local parish priest decides to opt out of the process? How does this gel with the position of Educate Together, which does not seem to apply the same restrictions as regards where it wants to establish second level schools? It is in potential growth centres where there might be one or two second level schools already in place. Some schools are on the list provided — Loughrea and Athenry are two examples of which I am aware. If Educate Together presumes there is a facility available for the development of a second level school, does that not run contrary to what Mr. Murray said in respect of what happens at primary level in so far as it is the numbers that will determine whether such a school will be established? We are splintering — if I can use that word — with regard to the provision of gaelscoileanna in such centres at primary and second level. There are the roots of a second level school in Athenry. The town has two traditional schools and a gaelscoil, and there is now the proposal from Educate Together to provide a fourth school.

Chairman

We will take questions from other members because we do not want duplication.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I welcome the delegation. I will be brief and to the point. I ask the delegates not to confuse this with simplicity.

We have a new category of citizen whom I would describe as the compulsory Catholic. They have to get a baptismal certificate in order to get their child into the community school. I represent a constituency that is the least Catholic in the country and I am a member of the most rapidly growing denomination, i.e. atheist, agnostic or no religion. We are not recognised as citizens in this State.

I know many people who, force majeure, have reluctantly and with great personal difficulty obtained a baptismal certificate for their child because there was no other way of getting that child into a school. That is a growing problem. Many of my friends in the Catholic Church and many priests are embarrassed that they have to go along with this. They feel very reluctant about participating in what is a fraudulent ceremony because the parents have no intention of bringing up their children in the Catholic faith. There is a crisis here which should be addressed first and foremost with the largest patron. Given the legal basis for the provision of primary education, the schools have no choice but to give first option to people who are members of the parish. Many people do not understand that this is the law of the land. I know this is political policy as much as administrative policy. Has Mr. Murray raised the matter of the new schools provision with the largest patron in Dublin, Archbishop Martin, who has said that he would like to divest patronage of a number of primary schools in the city? Has that matter been taken up with the patron?

The second issue in relation to primary schools is not about supply but about service. The boards of management in many of the band one areas are not functioning. I do not know if the witnesses are aware of this. It may be a matter for people in another area of the Department of Education and Science. School principals are not getting the back-up and support that they require. In many cases the chairperson, representing the patron, is a very reluctant — and in some cases absent — person. The vocation that man has is not to run the primary school system and engage in battle with the Department. It is about saving souls. Many of these men are of an age where they are creeping away from the school system. There is also a decline in their numbers. This is a serious difficulty for the management of primary schools. What can an aggrieved parent do if a board of management is not appointed? In deference to the persons involved, I will not identify the cases of which we have been informed where there is a stand-off. The parents are powerless and the patron refuses to act. The Department of Education and Science washes its hands and says it is nothing to do with it.

We have chosen democratically to have a confessional system of education delivery. The presumption that the VEC is a multidenominational provider of education at secondary level is merely that — a presumption. Practice on the ground is very different, particularly where a VEC college or community school has been created by a voluntary merger of several local schools run by religious congregations with an existing VEC. The quid pro quo, notwithstanding anything in the 1930s legislation, is that it is a de facto Catholic college. For that reason, Educate Together, which I support in relation to this, has sought to continue its ethos from the primary sector into second level.

Since December 2007 there has been a request to become a patron. It is clear from the legislation that there is no prima facie reason as to why a patron at primary level should not be recognised as a patron at second level. That has been extended to An Foras Patrúnacha. The response to a parliamentary question in 2008 indicated that the matter is under consideration. When will the constitutional rights of parents who want multidenominational second level education be recognised? Will it require a court action to provoke a response?

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I welcome the breadth of quality provision in education, but there are sensitive local issues and questions about practicalities. There is a pilot scheme with the new VEC community model. On what statutory basis can a State school, such as a VEC community primary school, require children to be registered, labelled and separated according to their religious identity during the school day? A State school, as I understand it, has no exemption under the Equal Status Act. What are the practicalities of that? How will the main faiths be defined and by whom? Will there be a numerical limit to be reached by a faith community to be declared a main faith? Those are my questions regarding VEC schools.

What are the barriers to Educate Together becoming a patron body at second level? Children have been educated for many years through this model at primary level. Has there been any research at second level on the pupils coming from the primary Educate Together model?

Deputy Margaret Conlon

I share some of the concerns that Deputy Quinn has. Teachers have told me about the difficulty relating to baptismal certificates. There is pressure on priests to provide these certificates, knowing that in most cases the families are not practising the faith and attending regular church service. There has been a willingness in many schools in recent years to accept children from other denominations where the general intake has been falling. There is a difficulty in that such children in a Catholic school may not be willing to attend religion classses and they must be supervised elsewhere. They are not necessarily getting proper religious instruction in their own faith. There is an anomaly there. We have come some distance but there is a much longer road to travel. There must be a programme to cater for the needs of every child.

Chairman

I welcome in principle the VEC model at primary level as giving increased choice for parents. I hope an evaluation of this model has already been carried out. When will the pilot phase end? When will the final evaluation be done? Has anything been learnt which would indicate a desirable change in the way schools are managed? It was useful to hear the religious breakdown of the two pilot schools. Is there an indication that religious education classes during school hours are right for a VEC primary school or would it work better outside school hours? I presume these issues have been considered.

It is stated in the summary of the supplied document that the application by Educate Together seeking recognition raises many issues in relation to the provision of multi-denominational education at post-primary level. The full report does not state what those issues are, except that a type of multi-denomination system is already being delivered quite effectively by the VEC sector. If the choice factor for parents has already been recognised by establishing the VEC model at primary level, why is it taking so long to extend this model to second level, given that there is no constitutional barrier? There seems to be a territorial argument here. I know the witnesses cannot comment on certain issues, but I am aware from talking to people in the VECs that there is a great deal of resentment about Educate Together. There seems to be some grabbing of territory, which is wrong.

In Lucan, in my constituency of Dublin Mid-West, there are five Educate Together schools — Lucan Educate Together, Esker, Lucan East, Adamstown and Griffeen Valley. This indicates that Lucan would be a prime candidate for a pilot school at second level. Two areas of land at Clonburris have been identified for school sites by vote of the council. Discussions are ongoing with the Lucan South Secondary School Action Group regarding a second level school and that is already earmarked as a community college. What would be the problem with piloting an Educate Together second level school in Lucan, given that there are five such primary schools in the area? Only through a pilot project can substantive issues be identified. I have seen the Educate Together ethos, which has been adopted by some primary denominational schools. There are differences at primary level between Educate Together and the VEC model and there are bound to be differences at second level as well. It is not a case of one multi-denominational model fitting all. Is there any valid reason not to find out whether Educate Together would provide a good model at second level by initiating a pilot project?

Ms Ruth Carmody

On the question of broadening the range of people who can be patrons, the Minister can recognise anyone as a patron, depending on local needs. The purpose of the new legislation which we are progressing is to allow the VEC to become patron at primary level. Mr. Murray will deal with some other aspects of Deputy Burke's queries.

On Deputy Quinn's questions, we are in the first year of a pilot project. The intention of the pilot, in accordance with the Government decision, is to develop structures that will allow for greater diversity. It will be seen from our submission that the pilot project is progressing quite satisfactorily, but it is early days. Over time, this will hopefully provide a basis for more diverse institutions where required.

Senator Healy Eames referred to registration for religion. Obviously this is a voluntary system. Parents are not forced to declare any religion if they do not wish. From the point of view of the pilot project, it is of value to us to be aware of the various religions of the pupils in the school so that we can make adequate provision, where possible. On Deputy Conlon's point, children are not being separated in the pilot schools. They are being taught together in so far as they can be. We are in the pilot phase but it is the intention to keep them all together for as long as possible.

We are in the first year of the pilot and we have begun to set up the structures for evaluation. Mr. MacSitric might want to make some comments on that. We envisage it will take some time to be effective.

Mr. Pat MacSitric

We have begun to develop a strategy to evaluate this new model. We have just two schools. One is ending its first year, the other its second year. Children are in the infant classes at this stage. The key issue in evaluating this pilot is engagement with those who are involved on a day-to-day basis — the teachers, the parents, the wider community, the religious leaders, as well as the VEC in terms of patronage and management. Curriculum is not a major issue because these schools stand as any other primary schools in the system. Evaluation of educational quality does not really enter into this. The key issue is how religious education is managed within the school. That programme has its own built-in evaluative strategy. There is constant engagement between the academic who is developing that for us, the expert in religious education, the teachers, the parents and the management of the schools. There is an ongoing evaluation. We are in the foothills of this process, but we will develop the evaluation process as we go along.

Mr. Frank Murray

In response to Deputy Quinn, in all my experience as a principal of a community school and as general secretary of all the community and comprehensive schools, I have never come across anybody in those schools asking for a baptismal certificate.

Chairman

You would not deny that it is a possibility. Members have been told this.

Mr. Frank Murray

I am not denying that at all. I want to make it clear that from my experience at second level ——

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

It would not arise at second level. Holy Communion and Confirmation are at primary level.

Chairman

Is Mr. Murray saying it has not come to his attention?

Mr. Frank Murray

It has not come to my attention. In the Tallaght area where I was very involved, there was certainly a multi-faith and non-denominational base. I know the empathy with which principals went about their duty in relation to that was exemplary. I can stand over that from my experiences of 26 primary schools in the Tallaght area. There was great empathy, understanding and sensitivity. I was shocked to hear that such requests would be made, but I do not doubt the validity of the question.

At second level, the VEC schools are multi-denominational. The worst job anyone can have is to be involved in the boards of management of primary and post-primary schools. I am chairperson of two at the moment. It is important that people, in identifying certain specifics, should not come to the conclusion that this is the norm. It is not. If I have learned anything from today's exchange of views it is that there is a greater need to educate members and chairpersons of boards to ensure these practices do not prevail. I accept there is more to be done in that area of training boards of management in the conduct of their duties.

Archbishop Martin was frank and open in expressing his views in Kilmainham. His wish to be considered and concerned about an individual group or groups that wish to develop schools was welcomed, and it clarified many issues pertaining to denominational education because he has opened the door to a more embracing attitude in that context.

The vocational education committees are at the start of an exciting process in developing primary schools. The evaluation of those new schools must be carried out quickly in terms of what can be learned from their practical experience. There is much to be learned from the practices that have been established.

I have known Deputy Burke for a long time. We have crossed paths——

Chairman

Mr. Murray can call him Ulick.

Mr. Frank Murray

We call each other much more than that. On the issue of Ballinasloe and other areas, I did some work in the Galway area and my experience is that there is unanimity on a cross-sectoral and cross-community basis to embrace change and deal with this issue with empathy. For that reason the Department has always been open to welcoming new ideas. In some areas things can get a little hot under the collar. I have probably visited more places than most people in regard to conducting public meetings on that but in my experience it is possible to find solutions through patience and perseverance. To take Ballinasloe as an example, it has worked out there for all concerned.

I am speaking on a broad sweep basis. Some of the points raised must be given every consideration but I am much more optimistic that the judgments made after that consideration will be more in keeping with the suggestions being made here. I have no doubt this is a learning curve, and Ireland is on the cusp of a change. I do not want to elaborate beyond that.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Mr. Murray referred to the interesting speech given by Archbishop Martin, which I heard. I have a high regard for the man. The archbishop indicated in public that as the patron in the Archdiocese of Dublin, which I presume has the largest cluster of primary schools, he did not want to be patron of all of them and that he would be happy to divest that responsibility. Has the Department of Education and Science taken up that particular pronouncement privately or is it its intention to explore it because it seems to be an extraordinary statement to make?

Ms Ruth Carmody

What we are working on is the piloting of an alternative model to the current model. To that extent we are responding. Is the Deputy referring to an alternative model to the Catholic provision?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

No. We have a situation where, and the Department is funding it, the biggest patron in the country — 93% — says it wants to divest of some of its responsibilities in the area. Somebody might say that the Department might pick up the phone to ask what the patron has in mind. The archbishop went further because he referred to the dilemma it poses for the archdiocese. We are speaking exclusively about Dublin, and they are all princes in their own diocese, notwithstanding what Bishop Leo O'Reilly says. In terms of the consequences for the archbishop, how does he make the choice? If he decides to keep a particular school in a particular area, what social and class signal does that send out?

Deputy Hayes and myself attended a meeting recently in a DEIS band 1 area where the people were in despair at the delivery of support and services from the patron. That was a disadvantaged area. The immediate concern was that if the archbishop divested himself of the problem schools which are underfunded by the State and abandon them to DEIS band 1, what signal socially, religiously and morally would that send out? If I understand Mr. Murray correctly, I am amazed that his commission for new schools and accommodation has not engaged in this statement by the largest patron in the country.

Chairman

I want to clarify something. The Minister has indicated that he sees the model rolling out in new areas and therefore it is current Department policy not to move the VEC model into existing areas, which is where the schools the archbishop would like to divest responsibility for are located. There is an issue in that regard. While we can welcome what has been said, there is currently no mechanism to take up the offer.

Mr. Frank Murray

I want to be clear. When I was appointed in 1996, in a period of two years we produced a number of reports, one of which was on the criteria for the recognition of new primary schools. Some months ago we were asked to review those criteria. We had two meetings on that. Those meetings are ongoing and it is our intention that we will conduct that review as expediently as possible, taking into consideration some of the points raised today. We have considered some of those issues. We hope to finish our work within a two-year period. That is the best we can do. It is difficult to revamp recognition processes quicker than that because we must go through a technical group and then a steering group. The technical group consists of approximately seven people who are fairly expert in their ways. The steering group is like the United Nations; it has 27 or 28 members.

In the past we have succeeded in getting solutions, and everyone in the gallery was present when we did that. We work through them and we work hard to achieve them. I would envisage that this new review will also do justice to those solutions.

Chairman

We have a number of conversations ongoing at the same time. Senator Healy Eames indicated that she has to leave. I understand Ms O'Brien will deal with that specific question. We also have to hear from Mr. Dolan on the Educate Together issue. I will close the discussion on the primary VEC model. I will allow Deputy Hayes to contribute after Ms O'Brien responds to Senator Healy Eames's question.

Ms Catríona O’Brien

The question concerns the issue of children being registered and the notion that parents enrolling children in one of these schools would have to declare their religion. Senator Healy Eames's point concerned the obvious question that the State does not enjoy the exemption of religious bodies or orders who are patrons of schools under the Equal Status Act, which is right.

In terms of how we produce the graph members received in the main presentation, in the decision made by the Minister and the Government, a key feature of the new schools is that all faiths and none will be catered for during the school day. That means that, where possible and depending on numbers, logistics and so on, the patron of the schools will provide religious education for the main faiths represented in the school, bearing in mind they are community schools, depending on who is represented in them, and will also cater for parents whose children are pupils in the school but who do not wish them to receive instruction in that religion, although they may be of a particular religion.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

The Department has responsibility for two schools currently. How does that happen in practice? There could be three or four main faiths requiring teachers. Is that not a huge drain on resources? What is the timetable? Are there any issues with regard to registration?

Ms Catríona O’Brien

To answer Senator Healy Eames's question on registration time, it is not compulsory to declare one's religion when enrolling children in these schools. It is clearly stated to the parents what the model of the school is. For operational reasons, therefore, and also to feed into the evaluation of what we are doing, it is helpful to know what religions will be represented in the schools, and how many pupils are not of a particular religion or whose parents do not require them to receive instruction. That is absolutely necessary simply for the logistics of running a school. We are in no way suggesting that this is a compulsory requirement. Parents do not have to make a declaration. Between both schools, approximately 30% of parents have declined to make a statement. That is the situation regarding registration time.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Where do those children go during religious instruction time?

Ms Catríona O’Brien

It is an enormous challenge to cater for all religions and none during the school day. It has been difficult for all concerned to get their heads around it and manage it. It is detailed in the note so I will not go over it again. It is being organised via the VEC by an action research project assisted by a reference group made up of as much expertise as we could find across all of the main faiths represented in the schools, some not represented in the schools and some other groups such as the Humanist Association of Ireland, which has a keen interest in what is going on here.

That is the background to the programme. What the action research is doing is developing a generic programme, a core basic religious education programme. Bearing in mind that we are dealing with junior and senior infants, it is very general. It is an interactive, very basic programme drawn from a number of other programmes such as the Alive-O programme and the programme that is available for Muslim children. All of the existing programmes have been looked at and bits and pieces have been drawn from those. It is very much, as Mr. MacSitric said, a work in progress. We are very much starting off with this.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

The Department seems to be evolving very much towards the Educate Together model of an ethical programme including world religions, that type of generic programme.

Ms Catríona O’Brien

That is it. However, the brief we have, as well as doing that, is to cater for the main faiths and to offer religious instruction where that is required during the school day.

Senator Cecilia Keaveney

I am sorry I was late. I would like clarification. Is the Department abandoning the old model of religious instruction by the priest, the nun, the minister or the rabbi who comes into the school or is, perhaps, on the school staff? There is an example in my constituency of a bishop refusing to appoint a chaplain to the school to meet the needs of 90% of the students there, whereas the Protestant religions have appointed a minister to serve a minority. Further, if a child is a member of the Church of Ireland and a Methodist minister comes to the school, that child may as well go to the Roman Catholic chaplain, because the Protestant religions are as different from each other.

Logistically, who will deliver the programme? If it is a generic programme dealing with what religion is about, does that mean moving away from the specificity there was in the past?

Ms Catríona O’Brien

It is a good question. Development so far has been on the general programme. It was always going to be the case that Catholic children, as they come to communion age and confirmation age, would require sacramental preparation. There are other issues in regard to other religions. We are now reaching the stage in the action research programme — it began at Easter this year because it was an appropriate time to do it — where children of the main faiths will break away for a period for instruction, introduction if one likes, to their own specific faiths and religions. As regards how that will be delivered, let us step back a minute to the reference group in question. All of the main faiths and non-faiths, if I can put it that way, are represented at that group. The action research project is drawing on their expertise regarding what they think will work best. During the very short introductory period around easter, for instance, the Alive-O programme is being introduced by the teachers in the school for the group of Catholic children. Following consultation with the imam, the Muslim introductory programme is being provided by somebody from the Muslim community, I think by the imam himself.

In other words, we are talking about a preparatory phase which is taking place in consultation with the different groups, taking into account what they think will work. This is the first time in recent weeks that there has been a separation to try this out. It may work, it may not work. In terms of the action research programme, once we finish that phase there will be feedback from the teachers, parents and children. We will see what works and then move on to the next stage. If something does not work we will learn from that and do things differently the next time.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

How many years are planned for that action research project?

Ms Catríona O’Brien

It is hard to say. What is hoped is that by the end of this year the programme for the current age group, the four and five year olds, the junior and senior infants should be almost complete because there will be another intake of that age group in September 2009.

Senator Cecilia Keaveney

Could some mechanism be put in place to deal with situations where senior clergy do not see eye to eye with the Department, rather than pretending it is not happening? I can give a specific example of that. Many people are annoyed about it. Traditionally in my area the priest or nun would have been involved in giving religious instruction to Catholic children and the minister would have delivered it to non-Catholic children. We would not have had Muslims or Jews in my area at the time. Now there is a refusal to appoint a chaplain to a school. What can be done, in the context of the system the Department is developing, to deal with a situation where somebody is creating a block and closing down the shutters? The interests of parents and children should be respected and a way found around that roadblock. I accept it is not easy when dealing with people from many backgrounds, religious and non-religious and everything in between.

Ms Catríona O’Brien

It has presented a huge challenge because of the particular circumstances in which these schools were established. In a way it is no harm because it has forced us to address many important issues. In terms of the two schools we are dealing with, and because of the great group we have within the action research project, we are very fortunate that everybody is very willing to participate, to help and to provide input. The point being made is a valid one. What comes out of the evaluation of this pilot will be lessons that have been learned in the schools. It should come up with a very good model for these schools that may not necessarily be transferred elsewhere. However, the learning from that can be shared with other schools. That is one of the very big benefits of it.

Chairman

At this juncture, Deputy Brian Hayes, as the Fine Gael spokesperson on education is entitled to contribute next, so I will give him the option. We still have not heard from Mr. Richard Dolan who has been waiting very patiently to speak on Educate Together. Could we hear from him first and perhaps the Deputy will have some related questions afterwards?

Deputy Brian Hayes

I think we should hear from Mr. Dolan first.

Chairman

Thank you for your courtesy and patience.

Mr. Richard Dolan

A number of issues were raised. I will try to go through them as they were raised. Deputy Burke mentioned the prospect of Educate Together moving into certain areas. I suppose that brings up most of the issues we are dealing with.

There is no set procedure within the Department for a body to become a patron at second level independently of assessing a new school application and that is one of the issues we are looking at. On that issue, the Education Act speaks of diversity but it also mentions value for money, and we are looking at issues around that as well.

Chairman

On the issue of value for money, Educate Together, for example, would say it can do this as cheap as, if not cheaper than, the VECs.

Mr. Richard Dolan

What I am really getting at is the diversity issue, that is, whether there is already somebody in the sector who is providing what Educate Together will provide.

Deputy Quinn mentioned the changing face of Ireland and the changing demographics. No doubt Ireland is a changed place and is continuing to change. According to all the demographic figures, the birth rate is increasing, migration is changing and patterns of where people live are changing. Those are issues that must be taken into account.

The VEC model was mentioned. The VEC model has shown itself to be flexible in the past and has provided a good quality of education for the community. Any decision must take into account the current providers, and the VEC was the one mentioned.

We are looking at the demographics, and at value for money versus diversity. At this time we have no procedure. Neither the Education Act nor any other document outlines an agreed procedure by which we can introduce a new patron at second level.

Chairman

There is no constitutional barrier to it either.

Mr. Richard Dolan

Absolutely not. It is an ideal time to look at putting that procedure in place.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I want to establish that I understand the position correctly. Diversity is provided for within the Constitution and the legislation, as is value for money, which is self-evident, particularly in these times. It is self-evident that one cannot have half a dozen primary schools of different types at every crossroads in the country, and that is not where we are starting from.

On Educate Together and the secondary level, in an area — the Chairman's constituency — where there is already a proposal to establish post-primary schools and the land has been set aside, somebody will pay for it and, ultimately, it will be the Department in terms of the capital sums involved plus the salaries of the secondary school teachers. As I understand it, there are a number of such places, Gorey being a case in point. There is also a growing population and there is the crisis in the primary school cohort, which has grown by 100,000. There are 500,000 primary school pupils at present and within approximately seven to eight years there will be 600,000. They will not leave the system at primary level and they will enter the secondary level. Against that background of demand as distinct from value for money, surely the necessity to provide for diversity against a rising population self-evidently suggests Educate Together, which has a track record of 50 plus schools at primary level and which, since December 2007, has an application in the Department looking for recognition for a post-primary patron status. Other than a political point for which I do not hold Mr. Dolan accountable, is there any technical, practical administrative reason Educate Together should not be granted status as a patron at post-primary level since it has such status at primary level? Leave the politics to one side, that is not the Department's responsibility.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I asked that question earlier as well. What are the barriers to that?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Is there advice of an administrative and professional nature in the Civil Service that for reasons of practical administration it does not make sense to recognise Educate Together as a patron at post-primary level?

Chairman

Mr. Dolan cannot comment on policy. Somewhere along the line someone is blocking this. That is my view. The issue can be fudged for another five years, which may suit the individuals concerned but which will not progress our education system. Mr. Dolan contends that there may be a similarity between the VEC multidenominational model and any proposed Educate Together school. I would like a direct answer to this question. I propose that the only way to find out whether Educate Together at second level would be different than the VECs at second level is to pilot one Educate Together second-level school, similar to what is happening with the VECs at primary level, and see if there is a difference. If they are totally similar, the Department can go back to Educate Together and say this is its only school and the Department wants to absorb the patronage because there is no difference. If, however, it is shown that there is a difference, then the Department has been proactive. Would there be a problem with setting up a pilot school?

Mr. Richard Dolan

That is one of the issues at present. There is no independent process for agreeing to a new patron independently of a new school and that is one of the issues that needs to be dealt with at present.

Deputy Brian Hayes

I wish to develop this point with Mr. Dolan. As I understand it, there is no distinction in the Education Act between primary and post-primary recognition of patronage. The Education Act is neutral on the question of whether it is primary or post-primary.

According to Article 42 of the Constitution, there are two fundamental principles for parents: first, the right to choose the model that they see fit for their child; and, second, the neutrality between public and private education. Leaving the latter to one side, if a group of Irish parents comes together and organises in such a manner as to put a proposal to the Department of Education and Science to be recognised formally for post-primary education, is Mr. Dolan concerned that the Department could potentially face a challenge from those parents where it is blocking the right of those parents to provide the educational choice they want for those children? Has the Department got legal opinion, either from the Attorney General or independently within the Department, as to whether or not the Department can continue to stall this? As Deputy Quinn stated, an application is before the Department for in excess of a year——

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Since December 2007.

Deputy Brian Hayes

——since December 2007. There does not seem to be a beginning, a middle and an end point when a decision on this must be reached. Has the Department sought a legal opinion as to whether it can continue to allow this issue not to be answered until such a time as a decision is made?

Mr. Richard Dolan

I understand legal opinion has been sought on the patronage issue.

Deputy Brian Hayes

In respect of what exactly?

Mr. Richard Dolan

In respect of the application, the Education Act and all of the issues around diversity.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Is Mr. Dolan prepared to comment as to the conclusions reached in the opinion?

Chairman

Was it the Attorney General's opinion that was requested?

Mr. Richard Dolan

Not at present, but I do not think there are any conclusions.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

What is the opinion given?

Mr. Richard Dolan

It has not been received.

Chairman

What timeframe for receipt of that opinion would be likely?

Mr. Richard Dolan

I do not know.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Aside from the legal opinion, my question was whether there are any administrative or operational reasons, as distinct from a policy reason, from the Department's perspective, not only from Mr. Dolan's because he has a specific remit for forward planning? On the other aspects, would any of his colleagues care to comment? Are there any other operational reasons that would recommend, everything else being neutral, that Educate Together should not be granted patron status at post-primary level?

Ms Ruth Carmody

The Deputy will appreciate it is difficult for us to comment on an issue like that. Unfortunately, it is rare that one can separate policy issues and administrative and logistical ones.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I admire the answer but it is clearly possible to separate operational difficulties from policy positions.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Given that the application is currently before the Department and I asked the Minister a priority question on this at Question Time on the last occasion, what would be the best guess in terms of a timeframe when a decision will be reached on this? Will it be one year, five years or ten years?

Mr. Richard Dolan

Ultimately, the decision is made by the Minister.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

That is fair enough.

Mr. Richard Dolan

I cannot guess. I could not.

Chairman

Mr. Dolan is precluded from commenting on policy. One's lack of ability to answer sometimes answers the question in some ways.

Deputy Brian Hayes

The decision is currently a matter for the Minister. It is a fundamental issue of policy.

Given that it is now administratively compliant, it is simply awaiting a decision.

Chairman

The officials might be interested to learn that we have invited representatives of the Irish Vocational Education Association to meet us on 20 May to discuss the roll-out of their model at primary level and to share their views of Educate Together at second level. We have invited representatives of Educate Together to meet us on the same date. I acknowledge that it is not protocol for departmental officials to become involved with discussions with representative bodies but I would welcome their attendance for information purposes. It will be an interesting debate. The Minister will appear before the committee on 7 May, at which time we will have an opportunity to put our questions to him directly. I hope, therefore, we will be able to clarify the issues in the coming month.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Can the officials indicate when the legal opinion was sought?

Mr. Richard Dolan

I understand it was sought within the past month.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

The officials cannot go into further detail on the legal, policy or operational issues that have arisen but what about sound educational reasons? These children have received their entire primary education in Educate Together schools. Has the Department conducted research into the effect of different second level education models on pupils who have gone to Educate Together primary schools? Has it done qualitative research on how these children are doing?

Chairman

Senator Healy Eames raised a pertinent point. I hesitate to choose one model over another but Educate Together likes to promote the democratic nature of its system. Students who have progressed from Educate Together schools to second level suddenly find they are not allowed to address teachers by their first names and are less involved in decision making processes. That is a key difference between vocational educational schools and Educate Together primary schools. There are merits in a more rigorous system but for students used to looser structures, it can be devastating to make such a transition at a vulnerable stage in their lives. I am not being facetious in noting the damage that can be done to their self-worth.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Has research been carried out in this regard?

Mr. Richard Dolan

I am not aware whether research has been conducted into the ethos of primary schools.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

That is unbelievable. The Educate Together model has been in existence for more than 30 years. These children may suffer in the more structured systems that obtain at secondary level. I have supervised teaching practice in Educate Together schools. The way students learn and move around the classroom, the absence of uniforms and how parents inform practices are radically different to the more structured models that apply in church based and VEC schools at secondary level. I am comfortable with these differences but I cannot believe the Department has not tracked student progress. How does this accord with a progressive Department?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Does the Department take the attitude that post-primary VEC schools are non-denominational and, therefore, an application for post-primary status for Educate Together, which is multidenominational, will be considered on the same basis? From the point of view of Marlborough Street, this would mean not duplicating a school model that already exists at secondary level. Is that a fair interpretation of the current attitude?

Mr. Richard Dolan

A decision has not been taken on whether the two entities cover the same territory. The VEC schools are multidenominational but they are flexible in that the board of management of a community school can be dedicated to a certain ethos. Moville is one example of the flexibility of the VEC model.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Would Mr. Dolan accept that schools under the umbrella of the VEC have varying historical origins? I referred to the merger of the three schools, in which regard the nuns and the brothers sought guarantees on the structured involvement of their faiths in return for facilitating the merger. It does not make the schools secular but they are certainly multidenominational. There is not equality of representation because certain parties have rights of access for the very good reason that they have pooled their schools. I am not reporting complaints about the operation of such schools but I see a distinct difference between the board structure of that model and the structure in place in an Educate Together school.

Mr. Frank Murray

In regard to the historical development of community schools, the 1972 period gave rise to considerable controversy. Deputy Quinn would have been involved in meetings in Tallaght and elsewhere in this regard. When I came from the North in 1973 as vice-principal of a community school, the issues the Deputy raised were already being discussed.

Where there is good communication between a second level school and its feeder primary schools, accommodations can be made to ensure all pupils are accepted and treated with dignity, concern and empathy. Community schools came under significant pressure in their early years to be all-inclusive and I think that worked. It is possible to induct students from a variety of backgrounds and to treat them equally irrespective of the schools from which they come.

We have learned over the years about the challenges posed by a changing Ireland. I cannot speak with authority about vocational schools but from my experience of dealing with CEOs, huge progress has been made to ensure children can integrate with dignity and empathy. That may sound like a ropy suggestion but I genuinely believe it is the case and it is a fundamental obligation for all patrons, irrespective of their affiliation.

Mr. Richard Dolan

VEC schools have served their communities well.

Chairman

Members have been unanimous in their praise for VECs. The issue in respect of Educate Together is that it has developed a successful model at primary level and is ready to progress to secondary level. The organisation's members are certain about the distinctiveness of their ethos and, in terms of offering parents choice under the Constitution, that needs to be considered. If we can bail out the banks through emergency legislation in a matter of days, perhaps we could address the legal issues within several months.

Deputy Brian Hayes

I would not bet on that.

In the past ten years, the Islamic faith has become one of the most significant religions in this country. Can Ms Carmody inform the committee the total number of primary schools catering for Muslims?

Ms Ruth Carmody

I am afraid I do not have the figure to hand.

Mr. Richard Dolan

There are two in Dublin.

Deputy Brian Hayes

How many applications have been received from that partner in respect of requests by the Department to recognise additional Muslim primary schools? In recent years it has become a highly significant faith group and the great majority of Muslim children in my constituency and throughout Dublin attend local national schools that ostensibly are Catholic. A fundamental question arises, in that one reason integration has worked so well in such communities and in west Dublin in particular is because the schools have risen to the challenge of providing multi-faith options for children and respecting diversity, even though they are under Catholic patronage. Such integration is essential because the kids come from Muslim, Catholic and all other backgrounds. This question is fundamental in that the more one continues to recognise ostensibly religious schools, the more difficult it makes integration in such communities. From that perspective, I seek the number of applications that are before the Department at present for additional Muslim schools and the witnesses should revert to me on this issue.

Previously, Mr. Murray informed the joint committee that his commission operates on the basis of two groups, namely, a steering group, on which all the partners are represented and on which the great and the good all sit together, as well as a technical group, which comprises seven experts in the field. Is the latter group representative of the patrons, that is, of the wider steering group?

Mr. Frank Murray

It is the other way round, as the technical group comes first and the steering group comes second. I must look back. The answer to the Deputy's question is that those who were picked for the technical group have significant expertise. The new technical group that has been formed for the review of the criteria represents a complete cross-section of the partners.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Effectively, the partners are represented on both the technical and steering groups. On the issue of the——

Mr. Richard Dolan

While we are missing the Muslim one at present, we are working on that.

Ms Ruth Carmody

While we do not have to hand the number of applications for recognition of Muslim schools, we certainly will get it and will communicate it to the Deputy. Obviously, from the pilot projects that are being conducted at present, we are aware there are a large number of Muslim pupils in the greater Dublin area in particular. However, as we indicated, the pilot project appears to be meeting their needs. However, we will revert to the Deputy with the figures.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Mr. Murray has done much fine work on school accommodation needs in Galway. There is a parish in Galway called Deoch Uisce-Roscam or Doughiska. As the parish lacks a school, 1,000 primary pupils leave it each morning to attend neighbouring schools. A total of 30 nationalities, many of which are new, live in the parish and I believe the VEC model is due to be rolled out there in 2012. However, for the sake of cohesion and integration, can the witnesses indicate when a temporary primary school will be established there, even just for the start-up classes of junior and senior infants?

Mr. Frank Murray

I conducted a study in Galway one year ago of post-primary provision. During that time, Deoch Uisce was brought up and while my understanding is that there is a recommendation to the effect that a primary school and a post-primary school should be built there in due course, I do not know when.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

That has been scheduled for 2012. However, for example, I refer to the local parish priest, who is supportive of the VEC model and the gelling together of this community. At present, the massive number of 1,000 primary school pupils leave the parish each morning. He has put it to me that the immediate establishment of a start-up temporary school would provide a sense of belonging or heart for that community.

Chairman

It would be more appropriate were the witnesses to provide Senator Healy Eames with a written report on that issue.

Mr. Richard Dolan

We will do that.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Fantastic.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

This question probably is directed to all the witnesses in one form or other. Everyone is aware of the tsunami surprise experienced in north Dublin a couple of years ago when a crisis arose in respect of provision. Those kids will come through the system and will present to post-primary fairly soon. Have we all learned collectively, politicians included, from that experience, which was pretty scary for many people? The Department is to be complimented on the manner in which the problem has been confronted, as it has not recurred. However, where does responsibility for action lie? Mr. Dolan and his colleagues in the forward planning unit based in Tullamore made a highly impressive presentation to members on tracking, demographics and the use of modern technology. Consequently, one no longer can claim that one did not know or that one was surprised. Does the initiative lie with the Department of Education and Science to knock on the doors of post-primary schools and to state that from its calculations, it reckons such schools are likely to experience an increase in demand of20%, to take an arbitrary figure, and to ask how they are fixed?

I refer to Marian College, a school in my constituency that is on the DART line and about which I have spoken to Mr. Dolan previously. I asked its principal whether it would be able to cope if there was an increase in the morning. While the answer was "Yes" in some respects, he then raised a particular question. He stated that he did not know the intentions of the school's patron and has no way of finding out. He did not know whether the patron, the Marist Brothers in this instance, intends to continue in the provision of education. This also would be applicable to other schools. There are sensitivities in this regard and all members are familiar with the nuances that surround all such matters. To what extent can Mr. Murray's commission or the Department state that on the basis of their calculations, there will be an increase in demand for post-primary education within a school's broad catchment area? Can it ask such a school whether it could cope with an increase and if not, what it would need to enable it to cope and whether planning can begin immediately to put it in place?

Mr. Frank Murray

Incidentally, I am on the board of Marian College.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I realised that as I asked the question.

Mr. Frank Murray

I assure the Deputy that its principal, Mr. Paul Meany, would be full of empathy for any difficulties that might arise in the north Dublin area. Leaving that aside, given the data I have gathered and over which I am prepared to stand, a great amount of work is being done in the north Dublin area to cater for new provision.

Mr. Richard Dolan

At primary level, we have written to the patrons. As we demonstrated at the presentation last week, we are analysing the demography of the country and are aware that according to the births data from the CSO, numbers will jump by 4,000 or 5,000 per year in 2011 or 2012. Consequently, we have put together a list of the 40 or so areas that we consider will grow, initially at primary level, and have written to the patrons to ask for their input on whether new schools will be needed in such areas or whether there is room for extension.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

How will that factor into the post-primary sector? Perhaps Marian College was not a good example in one sense. In an area in which there is a geographical circular catchment area, whereby four or five primary schools feed into one or two existing schools, whose responsibility is it to make the first move? The Department now has information that the principals in the post-primary schools do not necessarily have. Having regard to what happened in the past, is the onus upon the Department of Education and Science and its forward planning unit to state that its calculations suggest there is likely to be a 20% increase in post-primary demand in such an area and that it now intends to analyse the capacity of the existing post-primary infrastructure and come to a conclusion that it must be extended or developed or perhaps that a new school must be provided?

Mr. Richard Dolan

That essentially is what we are doing. We are conducting an analysis of the numbers leaving the primary sector in every area. Obviously we have started with the primary sector because we know what is coming in 2011 and 2012. We will work from there on to the post-primary sector because the CSO has stated that the post-primary figures will begin to increase rapidly after 2016, following a lull in the next one or two years.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Would it be fair to state that we will be obliged to increase post-primary infrastructure?

Mr. Richard Dolan

They are the indications. Obviously, things can change when one is talking about demographics and making predictions many years into the future. At present, however, the birth rate is rising, which indicates that the population in both primary and secondary schools will rise in the future.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Consequently, the recognition of Educate Together as a post-primary provider would not constitute a duplication of existing resources. It would not commit the sin of providing stuff for a facility which is already available. One does not want to object to statistical calculations.

Mr. Richard Dolan

Statistics cannot be translated into patronage.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Very good.

Chairman

Mr. Dolan has not said he would be averse to piloting a programme once the legal issues have been resolved. The decision ultimately rests with the Minister, however.

Mr. Richard Dolan

Yes.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

We are all in this together and we understand each other's roles. Correct me if I am wrong in saying that the officials in their capacity as professional civil servants are not aware of any administrative or operational reason that would mitigate against patronage. As Mr. Murray will recall and the biography of the late Dr. Paddy Hillery reveals, the decision on multidenominational education at primary level was political at the end of the day.

Chairman

We have taken these matters as far as we can go. I thank the officials for their presentations and for being as forthright as possible within the restrictions imposed upon them.

Before the officials leave, I wish to put an unorthodox request to them. A post-graduate student from NUI Maynooth was due to meet members of the committee over a cup of tea as part of her research into our work. Clearly, politicians will have their own views of committees but if the officials decide to take their elevenses before returning to their offices, they might be able to offer her information on the restrictions they face in terms of answering questions in committees. The same applies to those in the Visitors Gallery who regularly attend committee meetings.

The Minister will meet the committee on 7 May and Educate Together and the IVEA will meet us on 20 May. In our meeting of 23 May, we will consider the issue of fee paying schools and provisions for students with learning disabilities and other related matters. We have some interesting sessions before us, therefore.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.45 a.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 23 April 2009.