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Joint Committee on Education and Skills debate -
Thursday, 13 Oct 2016

Higher Education Authority: Chairperson Designate

I welcome on behalf of the joint committee Mr. Michael Horgan, the chairperson designate of the Higher Education Authority. Mr. Horgan is with us today to discuss the approach he intends to take if and when appointed to the role and his views on the challenges currently facing the HEA, of which there are many. The joint committee welcomes the opportunity to meet the chairperson designate in public session to hear his views.

I draw the attention of the witness to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Any submission or opening statement provided to the committee will be published on the committee's website after the meeting.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I ask Mr. Horgan to make his opening statement.

Mr. Michael Horgan

Sé mo phribhléid bheith i bhur measc inniu mar cathaoirleach ainmnithe an tÚdarás um Ard Oideachas. It is a privilege and an honour for me to come before the joint committee as chairperson designate of the Higher Education Authority. I record my thanks and appreciation to the joint committee for rearranging the original date of this meeting and facilitating me. In opening, I will take a few minutes to give the committee some background on myself. I woke up in the middle of the night last night thinking about this and I realised that I had not mentioned my family in the text of my opening statement. My wife Carmel and children, Emma and Dave, are the rock of anything I have done and anything I will do in future, notwithstanding which I realised at about 4 a.m. I had not mentioned them.

I was born in Cork and went to the North Monastery Christian Brothers school. When I left school, I went straight to work at Cork Corporation as a clerical officer. After being a clerical officer, I was what was called at the time a "work study assistant" which was a role dealing with time and motion and method studies. It was an unusual thing to do at the time. From there, I joined AnCo, the industrial training authority and precursor to FÁS, as a training advisor and, subsequently, I moved to the Institute of Public Administration as training specialist. I was there for approximately two and a half years before moving from the IPA to the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, RCSI, where I was an administrative assistant. I remained in the RCSI until I stepped down as chief executive in December 2009.

During my time in the RCSI, I was involved in all aspects of college management, including student affairs, curriculum development, faculty administration, examinations, human resources, and project management. Finally, I worked there as chief executive.

I was deputy chief executive for nine years before I became chief executive. In the 1990s, I was also deputy director of a contract we had to manage in a hospital in north-western Saudi Arabia. Later in the 1990s, from 1993-94, I was involved in the establishment of the first overseas campus of RCSI in Penang, Malaysia - the Penang Medical College. In early 2000, I initiated and led the project of developing the first online surgical training programme, at the time the first in the world. It is named BeST, which stands for Basic electronic Surgical Training. This training programme comprised over 400 hours of online instruction in all aspects of the basic sciences of surgery. It is still in use and continues to be an exemplar of what is possible in terms of e-learning. In 2002, I led the negotiations and the team establishing our campus in Bahrain. This campus has a purpose-built medical school building next to a general hospital. The building was officially opened by President Mary McAleese in 2006.

Not long after joining RCSI, I applied to and entered Trinity College as a mature student on its evening course leading to a BSc in computer science. Having completed that degree, I took a break of two to three years and then enrolled in University College Dublin to complete a masters degree in industrial engineering, which was also an evening programme. Because of that background, it is fair to say that I have a different or non-traditional view of education and, obviously, would be an advocate for flexible learning, lifelong learning or any kind of programme that makes it easier for citizens or residents of Ireland to access education in any form.

I am a chartered director, having completed the Institute of Directors programme and I currently hold directorships in a number of organisations. I chair the Health and Safety Authority, where my term ends in December of this year, having served two terms. I was honoured to be nominated for the first term by the former Minister of State, Deputy Dara Calleary, and for the second term by the Minister, Deputy Richard Bruton. I should declare that I am not a member of any political party and never have been, although I am not sure whether that is a good or bad thing. I also chair the board of TransferMate, which is a global payments FinTech company based in Kilkenny and part of the Taxback Group. I am on the board of Intuition Limited, a knowledge management learning company based in the IFSC, where I first came across e-learning in the true sense. I am a board member of Respect, the fund-raising arm of the Daughters of Charity services for people with intellectual disabilities and I have been chairing its research board for the past five years. Through the stellar work of Professor Brian Harvey, our director of research, we were awarded a Marie Curie co-fund research grant with a total value of over €7 million that will fund a total of 25 research fellows.

I applied for the position of chairperson of the Higher Education Authority, HEA, through the Public Appointments Service in January of this year and was recommended to the Minister following a competition run by that agency. My background in education and a strong sense of duty to make a positive difference was probably my main motivation to apply.

The HEA was established under the Higher Education Authority Act 1971, with amendments in the Universities Act 1997 and the Institutes of Technology Act 2006. It is the statutory funding authority for the universities, institutes of technology and a number of other designated institutions, and is the advisory body to the Minister for Education and Skills in regard to the higher education sector. The HEA also has responsibility for the effective governance and regulation of higher education institutions and the higher education system. As such, the HEA is the lead organisation for the development of a higher education and research system that meets the needs of Irish society and the Irish economy and is accountable to the Minister for Education and Skills for that leadership. A key aim of the HEA is to create a higher education system that maximises opportunities and ensures a high quality experience for students.

The Irish Research Council operates as a sub-board of the HEA and is responsible primarily for funding early-stage career researchers across all disciplines, including frontier research - it uses the tag "From arts to zoology". The vision of the council is for a healthy research ecosystem in Ireland which provides a diversity of supports and opportunities, and which enables the country to reap the full value and benefits of research.

Last year, the HEA was responsible for the allocation of €1.1 billion in Exchequer funding to the higher education institutions and is responsible for evaluating the impact of that funding through reporting on system performance. The national strategy for higher education to 2030 is a key challenge as it assigns certain operational responsibilities to the HEA. These include reform of the relationship between Government funding and institutions through performance agreements, significant structural reform on a thematic basis and the process of technological university development. The Minister has also set priorities in regard to the following: widening participation in higher education by the most disadvantaged socioeconomic groups by 7%; a 5% increase in participation by under-represented groups in initial teacher education; a 5% increase in participation by lone parents; and a 25% increase in the number of entrants studying on a flexible basis. Other priorities include doubling the number of apprenticeships by 2020, increasing work placement or work-based projects as part of the course and significantly improving retention rates. These are all exciting objectives and, with the collaboration and support of the leadership of universities and institutes, they should be more than achievable. I have no doubt that, if this is implemented, our society will benefit greatly.

Research is a vital part of the work of third level institutions. It is often said that the research of today becomes the practice of tomorrow, and that is true whether it is in medicine, technology, engineering or any aspect of academic study. Research poses many challenges, especially funding. Not everyone sees the advantages of research or recognises the outcomes of research in everyday life. It is a long-term play and requires long-term commitment. This is something not always obvious to the public but one of the truly strategic decisions any group of legislators can make is to provide sustained funding for third level research.

Most commentators agree that the current funding arrangement for higher education is unsustainable and that reform is needed to redress the cut in resources over the past eight years. The projected increase in student demand in the order of 25% over the next ten years due to demographic trends will also put additional strains on the system. The Cassells report has identified both the funding quantum and possible funding sources, of which the committee will be aware. Once political decisions are made on these major issues, it will be the responsibility of the HEA to implement them. I am very grateful to committee members for their time and attention and I would be delighted to answer any questions they may have.

I thank Mr. Horgan for his opening statement. He certainly has a wealth of experience both nationally and internationally in the education sector. It would be interesting to hear a little more about the best education scheme, in particular in regard to online training, which is becoming increasingly popular.

Mr. Horgan stated that his main motivation in applying for the job was a strong sense of duty in regard to making a positive difference.

It is striking to note that Mr. Horgan is an advocate for flexible and lifelong learning, especially in terms of access to education. Mr. Horgan referred to the low level of take-up by disadvantaged groups. I would be interested to hear if he has any plans or proposed strategies to improve the situation.

He also mentioned the Cassells report. We are setting up a strong work programme for the next few months and we are interested to hear any views or observations on the report that he could share with us today to assist us in our work.

I am pleased to note the positive references in terms of doubling apprenticeships because it is hugely important to all of us in the skills area. Any insights or observations he has on how that would be achieved would be very welcome also. I will now hand over to my colleagues. Members should indicate if they wish to speak.

I welcome Mr. Horgan. I am conscious that he is the chairperson designate; he is not the chairperson or CEO. He will not be the CEO so I will not test him on his knowledge. What is of interest is his CV and his overall philosophy of education, in particular on higher education.

The question of funding is at the root of everything at the moment. We have had a major political debate in recent weeks and I hope we succeeded in making a start and introducing change. What is Mr. Horgan’s view of excellence in education, in third level education in particular? In recent years the major universities in this country have gone down the rankings and that is rightly partially blamed on the funding model and the lack of funding. What can we do to improve that and is it a target of Mr. Horgan that we would have universities at the top level and then that there would be other universities and institutes of technology, which are all doing a particular job?

The Oireachtas has not finalised its position on the Technological Universities Bill. It seems to me that there are arguments for and against it. Some of the arguments against it relate to the fact that it was initially conceived from a cost-cutting point of view on foot of the famous McCarthy report and an bord snip nua back in 2009. I know the situation has moved on since then but that is where it started. One argument I have heard is that if that is the only reason, then why do it? Some of the colleges that are part of the proposal on technological universities are very much rooted in local communities and people see it as being very important to keep a certain college in a locality because it serves an area where it is needed. Where does Mr. Horgan see the Higher Education Authority, HEA, in that space at the moment where there are arguments for and against and the Bill has not gone through the Oireachtas? In the past year, considerable funding was provided to pursue the model despite the lack of legislation.

That is all I have to say at the moment. If there is time I might come back in at the end given that there are not too many members present.

I will take a question from Deputy Nolan before I go back to Mr. Horgan for a response.

I welcome Mr. Horgan here today. Access has been a huge problem and it was identified in the Cassells report that lower socioeconomic groups are not taking up education. Adult learning is also an issue. Mr. Horgan went into education as an adult in later life. Could he indicate what approaches are needed? The Government has a strategy in place and it has acknowledged that there is a problem and that is good but we need action. What action does Mr. Horgan consider necessary?

Educational funding is essential. Politicians are aware that it is needed and that we cannot continue without it. Have there been cuts to educational research over the years and has that had a detrimental effect? What kind of funding would be needed to bring it up to the required level?

I will hand over to Mr. Horgan to respond to the first set of questions.

Mr. Michael Horgan

If you do not mind, Chairman, I will respond to Deputy Byrne's questions first. In response to the question about excellence in education, the problem with excellence is that one cannot measure it. It is not a final point. It is like quality. It is a journey one is going on. To me, excellence is something one never achieves because one keeps working to improve things. If one looks at a quality improvement system, one never gets to a stage where one says one is absolutely happy now that it has been reached. Excellence is a word that is thrown around all the time but one cannot measure it and say this is it. It is a perpetual road that one is on and one never arrives. One needs other ways to measure it. When one looks at the Irish education system, it provides all sorts of different services and outcomes in different ways, between the universities and colleges of further education, and in particular the institutes of technology. They are all involved in education and they all consider that they are doing excellent programmes but it is what is appropriate to the country that we should be looking at. We need an education system that suits the way the economy is going, the way the workforce is going, and the way trends are going in the sectors within the economy before we start to look at international rankings.

My view is that if international rankings improve because of what we are doing internally, that is great, but the idea of having international rankings as a strategic objective now is unsustainable. The word "unsustainable" keeps being used. There is a report by the World Bank on achieving world status in university rankings and the No. 1 factor in that regard is funding. It is said that funding alone will not get one there but without funding all the other things that one needs will not be in place to get one there. Therefore, one needs funding. Last year €1.1 billion was spent on third level education. That is probably equivalent to the total budget of a relatively small college in the United States. Without the kind of funding that is required, in order to go up the rankings one would need significant investment at this stage. If we discovered oil off Kerry and suddenly we had loads of money coming in, of course one would do that but where we are at the moment, we need to get what we have working optimally and then look again at the situation. If the rankings improve because of what we are doing well internally, that is great.

Technological universities originally came from the Colm McCarthy report. That is probably where the idea came from but there is also the idea of having clusters. From the HEA's point of view, it is a political policy so it is something that, is handed over to us to progress. In terms of whether it is a good thing or a bad thing, my personal opinion is that it is a good thing. I do not see why there should be a difference in the qualification of those who graduate from institutes that are grouped together and are providing programmes that are approved by Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, and are accredited. I do not believe the qualification would be of a different standing or ranking. Personally, I do not have a problem with the policy.

I will now respond to the question on access.

It is about the culture of the institutions. If leadership does not filter down to all staff in the universities and institutes and access is not seen as a daily event in the work of an institution, it will not work. I have seen great examples of universities and colleges having superb access programmes to reach out and identify students in pre-third level education and work them through the system. It is most definitely a cultural issue within an organisation and it must be nurtured and grown. The way the HEA can improve access to increase the numbers is through the performance measures we agree with each of the universities and institutes. We are looking for access to be front and centre in terms of performance. It means everything. It is not just for disadvantaged students; it is also for those who did not go to college full time and want to go back to get a degree. That is very close to my thinking. I know that it is already included in the objectives for the year, but it is something we must target to ensure we will be able to measure improvements in access to the colleges. Once it becomes a habit and part of every day life, it will work forever.

When Deputy Carol Nolan asked about research funding, did she mean funding for educational research separate from funding for any other purpose?

Mr. Michael Horgan

Given my experience of online learning under the surgical training programme, we were probably about six to eight years too early in terms of broadband speed to really make a bang. In 2001 and 2002, when online courses became available, one did not have the same broadband speeds; there were ISDN lines and dial-up systems. Downloading graphics took a long time; however, at the time we conducted research into how individuals learned. The aim was to include it in the structure of the programme. There have been enough developments both on the IT side and on the broader networking side that the issue of research into educational development probably needs to be looked at again. Technology has become part of everyday life. No matter where one goes, somebody has a mobile phone and he or she will know how to use a tablet and if he or she knows how to use a tablet, he or she will know how to use a PC. Technology is now way beyond what used to be the barriers to online learning. I suspect that funding for educational research will have to increase to meet the next wave of technology to apply education to real life.

I welcome Mr. Horgan and thank him for his presentation.

The previous chief executive, Mr. Tom Boland, retired in July. I believe his replacement announced that she would only be staying on for a few months. It is a key position. Is Mr. Horgan aware of plans to fill it?

The Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Richard Bruton, appeared before the committee a few weeks ago to brief us on the mid-year expenditure review. The reference to the early payment of grants to universities and institutes of technology is worrying. Were grants paid earlier because they were under water? Were they paid early because the institutions were running out of money and reaching insolvency? Does Mr. Horgan have a handle on the overall scale of problem with their cash flows?

I believe the last real benchmark report on third level institutions was produced in 2013 and indicated a significant decline. I know that we have had some quantitative and qualitative data since. When will the HEA produce the next benchmark report to measure accurately the impacts on third level education in the past few years?

I raise the question of gender. When I was preparing for this meeting, I learned on the HEA's website that in Ireland 81% of professional positions were held by men. While women comprised 62% of non-academic staff, men comprised 72% of the highest paid. While there are four female presidents of institutes of technology, there has never been a female president of a university in the Republic. Recent media reports indicate that some institutes are struggling in meeting the challenge of gender equality. I welcome the strides made in some colleges. DCU recently renamed a significant number of buildings after accomplished women. Because of initiatives such as Athena and Swan, 50% of candidates who are short-listed must be female. What has the HEA learned to date in this regard and is there more that could be done?

Mr. Michael Horgan

Let me tell the committee about the position of chief executive officer. The interim CEO, Dr. Anne Looney, is present. She has very kindly taken up the post on a short-term contract and will be starting as head of the new institute of education in DCU in January or February. A competition was held in February or March this year, but nobody was appointed. The day before yesterday we started the competition to find a new chief executive officer which is a key position. There are two major things that I will push to have done. I will push for the recruitment of a new chief executive officer and a new strategic plan for the Higher Education Authority. These are two major issues. We hope to advertise for a new CEO sometime in the next few weeks and that we will have a name by about December. It will then be a matter for the person to be appointed to give notice as to when he or she can start. We might also have to negotiate with Dr. Looney and perhaps DCU at that stage.

Has Mr. Horgan a contingency plan in place in case there is a holding period?

Mr. Michael Horgan

We might have to come up with something at that stage. We cannot presume anything, but we hope to be in a position to persuade.

On the question of the cash flow of colleges and institutes, I cannot answer that because I do not have the knowledge as I have had only one board meeting. However - and I ask Dr. Looney to correct me if I say something heretical - we have colleges and institutes that we class as borderline and that we need to mind carefully and so on in terms of funding. That is for various reasons. It could be that they are not meeting budgets. I suspect that is why that funding has been moved forward a little. I am guessing that is the case but I have not caught up on the matter yet.

I might pursue that with Mr. Horgan at a later stage.

Mr. Michael Horgan

Sure.

Institutions flagged as borderline and their future are of concern to me, particularly if they are underwater.

Mr. Michael Horgan

In respect of the reports we get back from the colleges and universities, we must have safeguards in place all the time to make sure of where their budgets were and what their plans were to ensure they will not get deeper into a worse situation. That is what we are doing at the moment. It is fair to say we are doing much hand-holding with various colleges.

Regarding the Deputy's question about benchmarking, I think she probably means the performance-----

Institutional and sectoral progress.

Mr. Michael Horgan

We are just about on to that.

Mr. Michael Horgan

We want to move quite soon on it.

Regarding gender equality and the way we can influence it, gender is part of our performance metrics as well with the universities, so we ask-----

On a point of order, is Dr. Looney entitled to sit beside the chairman designate if she or he so wishes?

Apparently not.

Okay. Excuse me for raising the point.

Mr. Michael Horgan

It is a very lonely spot over here.

The Garda Commissioner had an entourage of 14 yesterday, so I thought Mr. Horgan might be entitled to one.

Mr. Michael Horgan

I had imagined that Dr. Looney would be here and that she would be able to write me notes.

The committee knows all about the gender equality issue. Members know of the issues in Galway. It is not just Galway; it is elsewhere too. It goes back to culture again. I am pretty certain that it concerns the culture within organisations. However, it is one of the elements within our performance metrics now, so we look to see how it is changing. I suspect it will take a little time but it is bound to come to where it should be and probably beyond quite quickly if one considers the demographics of graduates leaving various university areas at the moment. We are working on it.

I understand there was a report published with recommendations regarding-----

Mr. Michael Horgan

I think it only came out last year.

Yes. I assume from what Mr. Horgan is saying that those recommendations will be implemented.

Mr. Michael Horgan

Within our performance metrics.

Senator Gallagher has indicated. I suggest that this be the last round. Does anybody else want to come in? No.

I will be brief because I know the Chairman is under pressure. I too welcome Mr. Horgan. I enjoyed his opening presentation. His journey and the road he has travelled to lead him here this morning is quite impressive, and I compliment him on that.

Mr. Michael Horgan

I thank the Senator.

I have a couple of questions. What is the term of his contract and what does he feel he can achieve within that time constraint?

The post-Brexit situation is an issue that affects us all. How does Mr. Horgan see that affecting his particular area, and what risks and indeed opportunities might there be for Ireland regarding Brexit?

He mentioned apprenticeships, an area which is vitally important to our future. How does he see that developing? A key issue for me is the speed of delivery of apprenticeships.

Earlier he talked about and seemed to be a champion of lifelong learning and online learning. How do we compare internationally in these areas? These are doors that can open up education to people whom it would have passed by heretofore. We should concentrate on these areas.

Finally, I hope I am correct in saying that institutes of technology are not allowed to borrow money at present to enhance their facilities and so on.

Mr. Michael Horgan

That is right.

How does Mr. Horgan feel about that? Is that an area we should consider?

Nobody else is indicating, so I will hand the floor back to Mr. Horgan.

Mr. Michael Horgan

My term is five years. Regarding my achievements, in a first draft of my statement I put in what I thought I might do but I took them out. Education is a very big ship, and to turn it will take a long time in all sorts of ways. From my initial experience with the HEA, I would like to see the governance of the institutions change because, from what I have seen, I do not think they have governance that is fit for purpose in place. Many issues come back to the HEA, almost like a child to a parent, when the organisations should be dealing with them internally themselves. I would also like to see a greater emphasis on the area to which Senator Gallagher referred in one of his last questions, that is, lifelong learning and access to it. I would like to see that opened up much more, and I suspect that competition is what will change that. Since I got word in July of my appointment, I have been doing much reading, and I found in one of the subjects that I followed up on with the Brookings Institution in Washington that one of its researchers is showing that the cost of education in the US is starting to drop. That is because of competition, and well-known, reputable universities are now coming into the electronic age in the provision of education. If that trend continues, it will have profound effects, both good and bad, on Irish education, but has very positive effects in terms of what it could make available to the population of the country. It may be that one will not study with an Irish institution but with some other institution, which is interesting because competition will make the Irish education sector sit up and take notice.

My gut feeling is that Brexit is an opportunity for education in Ireland, in both the research and international student areas. It is a matter of whether that will balance out the downside elsewhere of what it is being predicted in the food and agriculture areas. However, there is, I suspect, significant potential for us within the education sector, so we need to be ready for that and ready to take advantage of it.

On that point, through the Chairman, if I may, in order for us to tap into that potential, what should we be doing that we are not doing currently?

Mr. Michael Horgan

We have probably started already. We have already had a round-table discussion with the heads of all the institutions and they have been making contact with, for instance, UK universities because there is potential for partnerships there, whereby we would be the EU partner and they would be the non-EU partner. Then there is the identification of the markets that are big for UK international students. We should be considering those also to see what the opportunities are there for us.

A question was asked about borrowings, and it is correct that the institutes of technology cannot borrow. This is in the Act which established them. The universities can do so without the approval of the HEA or the Minister. It is just one of those quirks of the statutes. It is probably why some of the institutes of technology are not on as sound a financial footing as others, but this is the fact of the legislation.

On behalf of the committee, I thank Mr. Horgan very much for coming before us and for engaging in such an interesting, worthwhile and certainly very productive morning. We could stay here for hours discussing the many different facets of education that will come under his remit. On behalf of the committee, I wish him well in his very important role in higher education at what is a very challenging time. We look forward to perhaps having further discussion with Mr. Horgan when we are dealing with the Cassells report. I propose that the Clerk sends a letter to the Minister for Education and Skills stating the committee approves Mr. Horgan's appointment. It that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Michael Horgan

I thank the committee.

Sitting suspended at 11 a.m. and resumed at 11.04 a.m.
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