Joint Committee on Education and Social Protection debate -
Wednesday, 7 Nov 2012

Special Needs Education: Discussion with Special Needs Parents Association

Chairman

We are now in public session. I welcome Mr. Eoin Kelly and Ms Lorraine Dempsey of the Special Needs Parents Association to today's meeting to discuss their experience of special needs education provision in Ireland and to outline any concerns they may have.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence. However, if they are asked to stop giving evidence in relation to a particular matter but continue to do so, they are then only covered by qualified privilege. Witnesses are reminded that they should only give evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings and that they should respect the parliamentary practice of not criticising or making charges against any person outside the Houses in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We must finish this part of the meeting at 2.30 p.m. and in that context, I ask that presentation be delivered in five minutes, following which members can ask questions or make comments.

Ms Lorraine Dempsey

I thank the Chairman and committee members for the opportunity to address the committee today. We hope that we will be able to answer any questions that arise and give members an insight into the perspective of parents of children with special needs in Ireland.

The Special Needs Parents Association is a peer support network for parents of children with special needs. We do not define our membership by the age or diagnosis of the children and are very much cross-disability in that respect. We cover the areas of health, education, welfare and peer to peer support. Our objective today is to provide members with a parental insight into the factors that both inhibit and support the successful inclusion of children with special educational needs in Ireland. The submission before members is based on our perspectives on both policy and practice on the ground. While we have focused on eight areas in particular, they are not exclusive of each other. Indeed, some of the issues are very closely interrelated.

I will go through the main eight points briefly. One of the areas that we focused on in our submission is the resource model. The current special educational resource model is based on the actual diagnosis of children. Therefore, all allocations are categorised on that basis, with particular reference to resource support hours, which is an educational support given by teachers in a school. The allocation of hours is solely based on the diagnosis of the child. We would like to propose that the resource allocations in education follow a more needs-based model which is currently being adopted in the area of disability service provision under the progressing disability services national plan.

On the issue of the assessment of needs, we feel that there needs to be greater co-operation and integration at local level between the HSE assessment of needs officers and the special educational needs organisers, SENOs, particularly for preschool children. We also feel that the allocation of services for special educational needs and special health needs should follow a singular pathway of assessment. We would like to see one broad-ranging assessment done for all children, resulting in welfare entitlements, service support entitlements and educational supports being assessed together. Currently, children undergo several assessments, which places a burden on parents in terms of getting reports and filling out applications for various different supports across health, welfare and education.

The Special Needs Parents Association strongly recommends the introduction of a classroom assistant to bridge the gap between teachers and special needs assistants, SNAs, in terms of their respective roles. We are of the view that a classroom assistant is the missing piece of the jigsaw with regard to the provision of an integrated educational service, particularly in those mainstream schools where the demands on teachers are higher and where there are a large proportion of pupils with special needs. The so-called "withdrawal" teaching method, which refers to children being taken out of class to have their resource hours provided, does not allow for totally inclusive education. We would like to see a move towards resource hours being provided within the mainstream class, thereby benefiting the teacher in the classroom, who would have direct support from the resource teacher and would be able to learn from the resource teacher's particular experience and speciality.

Our association believes that there must be a greater focus on managing the transition phases from early intervention into preschool, from preschool into primary school, from primary onto post primary school and from post primary onto third level education. One way of improving transitions would be to create better linkages between the different schools in the form of local school partnerships.

Shared access to SNAs is a contentious issue for some parents. As an association, we are concerned that there might be an impression among our public representatives that shared access to SNAs is working on the ground because the parental experience is otherwise. Shared access does not work in many classroom settings and individual schools and has given rise to unacceptable risks for children. Health and safety issues have arisen on many occasions due to shared access to SNAs. This has also led to a reduction in inclusive opportunities in other areas, such as physical education and sport, for children with special needs.

Full implementation of the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act 2004 has not been carried out on the grounds of the costs involved; this has been well documented. However, we believe that two aspects of the Act which are imperative could be implemented without the need for significant additional expenditure. One measure is the mandatory application of individual education plans, known as IEPs. This is currently international best practice. We would like to see a linking of the allocation of educational resources to IEPs so that outcomes could be measurable. Currently we have no system for measuring inputs in special education. The second measure we would like to see implemented is the establishment of an independent appeals process which is separate from the National Council for Special Education, NCSE. We would also like to see an extension of the remit of the Office of the Ombudsman for Children to include the operations of the NCSE. We understand that this is currently being considered by Government.

Parents of children with special needs are not oblivious to the current economic climate within which the Government is operating. However, it is important that Deputies and Senators recognise that parents of children with special needs must interface with several Departments and State bodies, such as the HSE and the NCSE, and can feel under duress when their child's needs are not being met due to a lack of resources. Both the State and parents have a vested interest in maximising future outcomes for children with special needs because one day they will be adults. As parents, we want them to become adults who can contribute to the State rather than be dependent on it, where possible. Short-sighted budgetary decisions to meet the current demands of external parties can have a detrimental effect on children's future outcomes and place additional financial burdens on the State in the longer term. Maximising investment in children with disabilities serves not only to benefit the children themselves but also the future prospects of their families. We would like to be net contributors to the State. Parental perspectives can be greatly influenced by the overall package of supports that they and their children receive in order to maximise the child's potential and alleviate the additional stresses and difficulties that can be experienced by families. It is often indicated by parents that their child's disability is far easier to cope with than the system itself. The system does not work for us and any measures that would make it work for us, rather than for itself, must be pursued in earnest by this Government.

We will leave the committee with three key principles to reflect on: integration, individualisation and parental choice.

Chairman

Thank you, Ms Dempsey. I will call on the party spokespersons first. I ask everyone to keep to no more than three minutes. I call Deputy McConalogue.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I thank Ms Dempsey and Mr. Kelly for appearing this afternoon and for sharing their experiences of the special education supports in place and the issues they believe need to be addressed. I commend them on their work, including liaising with parents and working in a collaborative way on their behalf.

The area of special needs education has developed significantly in recent years. It has undergone a radical change. There are now more than 9,000 SNAs in the country; that figure has come from a low base several years ago. Undoubtedly, issues remain, and I thank the Special Needs Parents Association for taking the opportunity to highlight them to us.

Are children who have a need for a SNA being assessed and having their needs met in terms of the delivery of SNA hours? What is the recent experience of the association in this regard? Has it observed a squeezing in respect of the allocation of special needs assistants to children who would rightly be regarded as requiring these services in recent years? In my engagements with the National Council for Special Education it has maintained that the numbers meet the need, but the response of those affected is different. What exactly is the association's experience from engaging with parents? Has it noticed a change in recent times? The association referred to the introduction of classroom assistants with regard to addressing a gap in the system and the integration of the work of SNAs with teachers. Will the association elaborate on what it proposes and how it would work?

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

My first question is similar to that of Deputy McConalogue. When we met representatives of the NCSE recently, its representatives were adamant that there were more than enough resources in place to meet demand. However, when we speak to parents and groups they maintain that has not been their experience. There are differing opinions about whether enough resources have been allocated or whether the issue relates to the criteria used. Will the association expand on this and especially on the criteria for diagnosis as opposed to arising need?

The other issue referred to by the association in its submission was the school transport scheme and the difficulties facing parents with special needs children. They provided some examples, but are there any numbers to support this and show how it is affecting people? I was rather surprised when I read the submission, especially the reference to the circular. It is astonishing that the criteria used to determine eligibility for the school transport scheme do not take into account special educational needs, and this is having a significant impact. If one does not take into account these particular circumstances then one is limiting the options available to families and parents. Will the association elaborate on this point?

Will the representatives expand on the transition from primary to post-primary education? Having spoken to parents I feel this is a particular area where there is considerable scope for improvement, especially when we know certain students will be graduating to post-primary. It is almost like starting again when a student graduates to post-primary and there appears to be no consideration of this in terms of preparing a student in fifth or sixth class for the transition to post-primary school. I would appreciate if the association gave us some of its experiences.

Deputy Joan Collins

I will not repeat the questions that were raised already. I read the documents sent in by the association. Many of the suggestions make practical sense, including the idea of pulling the various Departments together, especially those responsible for welfare service supports and education, to determine how we drive the issues, rather than dealing with different groups all the time. This issue has been raised with me often by parents who are highly stressed from trying to deal with the various documents, applications and so on. A proposal is needed. What response has the association received from the Departments? Has it been positive? Have the Departments worked with the association? All Deputies should push this issue.

The NCSE used the word "quantum" to describe the level of support, suggesting a fixed amount. The association would prefer to use the word "continuum". Will they develop this point? They did not get a chance to do so during the introduction but I would be interested to hear it.

Deputy Simon Harris

I thank Ms Dempsey and Mr. Kelly for coming in today. The best thing about the Special Needs Parents Association is that in political discussions it always comes to the table with proposals and common sense and this makes our work a good deal easier. I am keen to hear its views on several issues. The representatives spoke about SNAs and the need for classroom assistants. Is the association satisfied with the criteria in place for SNAs? I am always astonished when one shows parents the criteria and job description for a SNA. They are informed that the SNA's responsibilities include cleaning up the classroom and doing photocopying for the teacher. This takes many parents and children with special needs by surprise because they presume the special needs assistant is there to look after the child.

There is a recurring debacle every couple of years with regard to school leavers with intellectual disabilities and their transition from school to a placement, whether in a day care centre or in further training or education. What are the views of the association on what can be done to improve that system?

A policy review for the domiciliary care allowance is currently talking place, which is welcome. Did the association make a submission? If so, can the representatives give us an idea of what was in it? At the moment a child must sign off the domiciliary care allowance at the age of 16 years and apply for disability allowance. While the disability allowance is a higher payment financially, there are significant difficulties in terms of children with special needs having to sign a form declaring that they are disabled. Does the association have a view on that?

In the document submitted, the association referred to a degree of improvement in that the NCSE is beginning to seek the views of parents. This appears to be a radical step forward. Will the association outline its relationship with the NCSE and how the council is interacting with parents?

We know there are many good SENOs throughout the country. However, as public representatives we notice a geographical difference. If there is a good SENO in one area or if a SENO takes one view, a child may have a better chance of getting a SNA or certain resource hours. Will the association offer its views on that as well?

Senator Marie Moloney

I welcome the association and I thank the deputation for their in-depth presentation, which I will read through in due course. One major issue is that of classroom assistants. We are fighting to keep up SNA hours, but the introduction of classroom assistants may mean that decisions on keeping SNAs in place are put on the long finger. Will the association outline its view on the role of the classroom assistant? Will it take from the work of the SNAs or will it simply help the teachers?

Many children with autism are having major difficulties being accepted as autistic for the purpose of the domiciliary care allowance and in getting the assistance they need in school.

There are many different grades of autism and it is difficult for them to access the services. I have met parents who are frustrated with the system. They say they have been in a constant battle with it since their child went to school. I know of a parent of a child who needed an eye-activated instrument. She fought to get this instrument for her child but the Department refused to approve it. This was the child's only means of communication with the outside world. Eventually, we fought and we obtained it from the HSE. This is not a satisfactory situation. The Ombudsman ruled on a similar case and decided that the Department of Education and Skills was obliged to provide this instrument but we were unable to procure it from the Department. I wonder if other parents are finding it difficult to access the services and to obtain the equipment which their children require.

I note a reference in the submission to parents living in rural Ireland and it seems they have been hit hard with regard to school transport in particular. It can be a simple thing such as whether a child is able to mount the steps of a bus. This is where even one escort on the bus would be of assistance to them. Children with extreme disabilities have bus escorts but many children with a mild disability would still find it a challenge to use a bus without the assistance of a bus escort. Should this area be examined in detail?

Ms Lorraine Dempsey

I will address the question of the allocation of special needs assistants. There has been a cap of 10,575 SNAs for the past two years. When this cap was first implemented, the NCSE kept back approximately 475 whole-time SNA posts with a view to allocating them later in the year for emergency applications, new applications, assessments and late applications. During the first year, the NCSE, the schools and everyone else had to adapt to a restricted initial application of SNAs. This year there was a recognition that the retention of so many posts was an over-cautious policy. Up to last June, more than 200 whole-time SNA posts had not been allocated. This year the NCSE allocated those posts from the outset so that they were in place in September. We have received fewer complaints from parents about specific SNA allocations this year. Complaints seem to concentrate on the shared access. Some parents still have difficulties with the reductions in their individual schools. While the Government has not imposed a cut on SNA numbers over the past two years, when SNA hours are reduced at a local level, parents view this as a cut. Whether it is a policy decision or not, a cut is a cut as far as parents are concerned. The rebuttal position is that the SNA cap is in place and there are an adequate number of SNAs to meet the demand.

Perspectives vary on SNA support in schools. In the main, parents and children are managing with their level of SNA support. However, the shared access policy for managing support seems to have been pushed forward. This has raised a number of health and safety issues. Special needs assistants have raised the issue of shared access at their annual delegate conference. They have explained it is difficult to run around between two or three different classes in order to look after five children on different floors of a school. It is not working from a logistical point of view in some areas.

The allocation of SNAs depends on the perspective of those who organise the SNAs. The special needs assistance organisers, SENO, are the gatekeepers for the allocations to schools. For example, there are discrepancies in decisions. It can be the case that a full-time SNA could be allocated to a school to care for one child while another child might have shared access with another two children. Parents ask why a child in Limerick has an full-time SNA attending to his or her needs while another child is struggling. They ask why a parent is called in to the school to help look after the care needs of his or her child because the SNA cannot cover the care needs of the three or four children who need help. We do not want the SNA cap to be breached or lowered until the system is allowed to settle down. The new system of allocations has only been in operation for the past 12 months.

The core criteria for the SNA is an issue in particular for children with autism and developmental disabilities. Care needs are the criteria for the allocation of an SNA. These tend to be the physical, hands-on care needs of a child. Some children, by the nature of their disability, cannot access the curriculum and therefore their educational needs are barred by their disability. Their disability does not qualify them for an SNA because they may not have specific care needs such as toileting or assistance with feeding and they may not be a severe flight risk. However, they need someone to guide them in the class while the class teacher is addressing 30 or more pupils. The teacher-pupil ratio has increased over recent years as has the demands on teachers' time. Some parents believe that their children are languishing in the classroom.

We have proposed the use of classroom assistants. Deputy Ó Ríordáin mentioned classroom assistants when he addressed the SNA annual delegate conference. We do not propose them as a resource on top of the current 10,500 SNAs. Many SNAs have, at their own cost, trained themselves to higher levels - to level No. 9. They have developed higher skills than some of the SNAs who possess only the basic levels of educational qualifications. Currently SNAs are not required to have completed the SNA course to become an SNA. Some SNAs may not have even a basic level of skills as there is no mandatory requirement that an SNA should have a first aid certificate or a manual handling certificate. It is up to the school whether it wants to provide funding for an SNA to attend these courses.

We would not regard classroom assistants as being quasi-educationalists. I acknowledge that the teaching unions would not be in favour of having unqualified persons acting in a teaching capacity. However, the role of the assistant would be to facilitate the teacher in addressing the needs which are not strictly care needs. This would free up SNAs - those with lower levels of qualifications - to allow them address the physical care needs of children. There might be an overall reduction in the number of people who have the job title of SNA but some of those people could, with further training, graduate to the role of classroom assistant. This would have a more general job description and role in terms of facilitating and helping the whole class. Much of the SNA job description includes tidying up the classroom and looking after small groups of children. Many of the duties of SNAs have nothing to do with the care needs of the child. In some respects, parents are concerned that SNAs are being used as a whole-school resource while the needs of their children are not being addressed. If a child's needs are being addressed, a parent will not have an issue with what the SNA does outside that time. There are cases where the SNA may be photocopying in the office while the child needs to go to the toilet or needs assistance with getting books out of a school bag.

It very much comes down to how individual schools manage this resource. There are issues that arise which were identified by the SNA section within IMPACT. We concur with many of the findings made by it.

While the criteria relating to special needs assistants revolve around care needs, if there were classroom assistants, these criteria would become more broad-ranging in nature. We are not stating there would be greater direct teaching support as a result. However, teachers would be able to manage SNAs in such a way that they would be able to facilitate children much more in the context of the work they are expected to do in the classroom. Currently, parents can volunteer to read with their children in school in order to help them to develop their literacy skills. However, the job description of SNAs prevents them from doing this. There is something odd about this.

Mr. Eoin Kelly

I will address the issue of transport, but before doing so I wish to add to what Ms Dempsey said. In recent years there has been a move away from individualised supports towards a whole-school resource approach. We would challenge this and certainly would not accept it. We are concerned that legislators might assume that the whole-school resource approach is working fine, but that is not the case. We do not concede the point on individualised supports, particularly as there are some children who will always require such supports. On a practical level, parents have informed us of the inconsistency in how schools apply various policies on the allocation of SNAs or resource hours. In addition, school principals take different approaches to how they manage resources. Again, there is no consistency in this regard.

We made a point on the links and interconnectivity between many of these issues. In that context, I return to the matter of the training provided for educators in respect of special needs education. We must ask whether these individuals are receiving the best training and support in how they manage resources. Deputies Simon Harris, Charlie McConalogue and Jonathan O'Brien referred to our experience of the management of resources. Perhaps this is more than just an issue of the number of SNAs. It may also be about the professionalism of educators within the school community and the training with which they are provided in order to allow them to manage the resources and meet demand in a much more confident and productive manner. I do not wish to be overly critical in this regard. However, this point must be taken into account.

The issue relating to classroom assistants goes to the heart of integration. The withdrawal method - the most popular of the methods in use - does not work, particularly in crowded classrooms in mainstream secondary schools. I am not referring to special schools. What happens in the mainstream sphere is that a resource teacher will take a number of children out of class in order to give them more focused assistance with their learning. We are concerned about the level of in-class support for these children when they return to the classroom. We have been discussing this matter with the National Council for Special Education and the special education section of the Department of Education and Skills and they have acknowledged our concerns. We recognise that they are coming towards the idea of trying various techniques, including team teaching whereby resource teachers are brought into the classroom to work with the main teacher. This is a welcome development and we would like to see further movement in this direction. Another technique in this regard is to bring in classroom assistants and allow them to reinforce the learning resource teachers are imparting to children. Both of these are definitely options which should be considered. We recognise that the Department is aware of them and moving towards examining the position on them. It may introduce pilot projects at a number of locations. This is a move we would welcome.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien has referred to what appears to be a very interesting situation where the school transport system works very well in certain circumstances but that there is a limit when it comes to recognising what is required by those with special needs. The argument in this regard is that the service provide is resource driven and does not meet the requirements of those with special needs. We met representatives of the Department of Education and Skills and put these issues to them. The first point to make on the school transport system is that there is another principle involved, that of parental choice. The difficulty with the existing system is that it flies in the face of reality. In that context, one's local school may not be the best resourced or most appropriate school to which to send one's child. That point is not conceded in any of the documentation or circulars on the school transport system. Only one criterion is used in this regard - children must attend their local school.

Senator Marie Moloney referred to children who had been diagnosed with autistic spectrum disorder and their escorts. While school transport may be provided, parents face another struggle when it comes to escorts. We have found that children with this disorder and those with ADHD and ADD have the greatest need for escorts. There have been cases where SENOs with responsibility for making recommendations to the school transport section of the Department would not accept additional passengers. Neither would they accept that a report obtained by a parent on his or her child was sufficient to suggest an escort was required. We are aware of cases where children were taken out of school while issues of this nature were being resolved. The last thing one wants is an education system which allows, encourages or facilitates the withdrawal of children from school because their health and safety are not being provided for. The parents of the children to whom I refer will not allow them to avail of school transport if escorts are not provided.

Chairman

There are 15 minutes remaining in this slot. Five more members wish to contribute and I ask them to limit themselves to one minute each in order that our guests will have an opportunity to reply. We need to conclude our deliberations on this item at 2.30 p.m.

Senator Mary Moran

I am not a member of the committee, but when I realised what was being discussed at this meeting, I decided to come and make a contribution. I congratulate and commend our guests on their ongoing work, with which I am familiar. As a parent of a child with special needs, they outlined the concerns of parents in a nutshell. The fact that I have a child with special needs is one of the main reasons I became involved in politics in the first instance.

Will our guests outline their views on the role of SENOs? As a result of my involvement in a number of cases since becoming a Member of the Seanad, I am aware of the importance of parental choice. Parents know their children better than any educator. When they have examined all of the possibilities, parents will know the school to which they want to send their children. However, the recommendations of the relevant SENO will often affect their plans and they will be obliged to try to negotiate the school transport issue as a result. I am dealing with one individual whose child has concessionary travel and who is seeking to have the school bus travel the extra 2 km to the family home. At present, the child has to be collected from the side of the road.

Chairman

The Senator should conclude.

Senator Mary Moran

I would like to hear our guests' views on that matter. There are many other issues I would like to discuss with them, but perhaps we might do so at another time.

Deputy James Bannon

I thank our guests for their most informative and interesting presentation, some of which I have had the opportunity to read. I agree that the choice for parents of children with disabilities or special needs who live in rural areas is very much limited. Ms Dempsey referred to individual schools and how they managed. What is not taken into consideration, particularly in rural areas, is the huge level of voluntarism on the part of parents, etc. School boards of management also provide wonderful assistance and support for children with special needs in the areas to which I refer.

There is a need for more joined-up thinking in the various sections within the Department, particularly the transport section. Parents know what is best for their children and are aware of what is the most suitable school for them, in geographical and other terms. They often make decisions in this regard in consultation with their children's teachers. The Department often cannot take on board all of the various considerations in individual cases. Therefore, there should be a greater level of consultation with both it and the HSE, from which a mobility grant of €208 per month is available. I am surprised by the number of parents in rural areas who cannot obtain this grant for their children.

Parents in rural areas cannot access that grant because they have great difficulty meeting the criteria set for it. This area should be examined. Often there is not a proper transport service in an area and parents have to go out of their way to bring their children to school.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

The witnesses are very welcome. I apologise for missing their presentation. I hope they have noticed an appreciable difference in the special needs assistant system in the past two years. We did a great deal of work on it here two years ago because we were at crisis point at that stage. I would like to hear a "Yes" or "No" response from the witnesses to that comment.

Our focus of concern is the special needs child, and the SNA is our current model for mainstreaming. Have the witnesses examined other models? Members of the education committee during the last term travelled to the United Kingdom and examined what was being done in the area of special needs education there. They were using a teaching assistant model. That teaching assistant was full-time and assigned to a specific number of teachers. We should examine, as was said, the care and learning needs of the child. I used to supervise teacher education and I saw many SNAs in classrooms and the child was looking around or holding their hand. I do not believe that model is adequate. If there is a human being in the classroom with a teacher, that person should be upskilled enough to work to provide for all of the needs of the special needs child in the classroom. We could be blindfolded here in saying the SNA model, as it is framed, is the correct, full and wholesome one to meet all needs. Have the witnesses examined other models in other jurisdictions that could better serve the needs of the child?

Deputy Brendan Ryan

On the two elements of the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs, EPSEN, Act the witnesses highlighted in terms of identifying a need for the early introduction of measures, one of those is an independent appeals office, and the principle that it would be an independent appeal process is something anyone would advocate. Does the association's promotion of this come down to some difficulties parents have currently with the National Council for Special Education in terms of appeals?

Deputy Ray Butler

I thank the witnesses for coming in. We have come a long way from the position that pertained 35 years ago. My mother sent my sister, Aisling, who has Down's syndrome, to mainstream school, and she was sent home because she would not sit down. We have come a long way since then. I agree with the association's recommendation for the introduction of classroom assistants to bridge the gap between teachers and SNAs. More focus on managing the transition phase between early intervention services is required. Some of the systems in primary, post-primary and third level education are not up to scratch and in certain cases they are not even in place.

When we came into government there was a retention of 475 SNA posts, but I am delighted there was a full allocation of SNA posts this year. That system of retention of posts was a disaster from day one. I have always said we would not get the full allocation of SNAs and to hear that 202 posts were held back is a disgrace.

We have to seriously examine the transport system in rural areas. It is not up to scratch and many of these people have no alternative. We definitely need to examine it.

Chairman

I invite Ms. Dempsey to respond to as many of those questions as she can and to make her concluding remarks.

Ms Lorraine Dempsey

On the domiciliary care allowance, I am one of the members on the Department's steering group, and we will make our report to the Minister towards the end of December. Parents are directly involved in the steering group, and work is ongoing.

It is important to discuss briefly this core assessment. We are aware there are cross-departmental groups in operation across education, health and welfare, but we would particularly make a call for this group to examine one core pathway not only for disability services and assessments under the assessment of needs but for everything to ensure we do not have to go from pillar to post to get all the resources our children need. That is a model we would like to be explored by the cross-departmental group, be it the existing one or a new one set up for that purpose.

There is not a specific budget for the needs of school leavers. What we have is a random response year on year. We have budget constraints. We cannot meet the needs of all the school leavers who in general would have anywhere from mild to severe learning and physical disabilities. Even by September there were still approximately 100 of the 700 school leavers who had no placement. These are generally people who have older parents who have their own needs to be met. It is not acceptable that every year we face this problem from May onwards and that there is not a fixed budget to address the school leavers issue.

In terms of the relationship with the NCSE, we have had several meetings with it in recent years. We go to it with questions, it answers our questions, we make proposals and we discuss them. We appreciate that it encourages our input in that respect.

Regarding special educational needs officers, their quality will differ depending on the person and their background. SENOs come from various backgrounds and there are no specific qualifications. That is an area that must be examined because the evidence is that it may affect decisions across different areas.

On the equipment issue, we have cited a case from the Ombudsman in regard to a child. I know that family personally and the ins and outs of that case. Equipment supplied through the Department in terms of educational support equipment, such as laptops, computers and that type of specialist equipment, is diagnosis-based. If someone does not meet the criteria in terms of diagnosis, he or she does not get the equipment. The Ombudsman was clear in her determination that this must be examined. That brings us back to using a needs-based system rather than a diagnosis-based system.

There is an issue in rural Ireland because resources are stretched, services and schools are further apart, there are fewer special units and special schools and, therefore, distances travelled by children will be longer. In some areas there could be a family which has one child with special needs and two other children in national school. That presents a logistical problem for the parent who is not granted special transport and who may have two children who only have to travel five minutes to their local school and another child who has a 60 km trip to their school. We are using a specific case in this instance rather than making up figures. That is something we raised in the meeting with the special education unit and the transport section of the Department.

On the independent appeals process, we have an independent appeals process for social welfare entitlements. We have an appeals process in the HSE but we do not have an appeals process for special education. The reason we have sought an independent appeals board consistently over the past two years is because when the first tranche of SNA reductions, which were severe, came in over two years ago as a result of the value for money review ongoing since 2009. Principals, who were essentially the gatekeepers for a parent trying to appeal for further assistance for their child, were afraid to draw attention to their remaining resources and therefore did not want to be reviewed. In some cases, they did not ask the senior SENO to re-examine the case because they did not want them back in their school for fear of losing further resources. That was the period from 2009 to 2010 when there were major reductions in the number of SNAs. While there might have been merit in some cases, the schools operated for years on the basis that they had a certain number of support staff and they were taken away in the one move. There were fears about that. People have adapted to the current level of SNAs but, as we have identified in our submission, there are instances where shared access is not practical.

Parents should have the right to appeal a decision, especially regarding shared access for their children, because from school to school it is principals who are now deciding, on the basis of a whole-school resource allocation, who gets what.

In some cases SENOs made an application of 2.5 full-time SNA posts to schools on the basis of the mix of children but those posts were allocated because one child might require a full-time post even though the SNA specifically allocated for the child's requirements is shared. The hours allocated to children in a particular school depend on the experience of principals. In some cases children did not have sight nor sound of an SNA and when the parent complained to the SENO about why their child was not getting more support they were informed that on the basis of their child's needs a half-time or whole-time post was allocated but the principal was using them as a whole-school resource to meet the needs of children who did not qualify for an SNA under the core criteria. The reality for the principal is that they had far more students who needed a level of support that could not be met through the SNA scheme.

Chairman

I thank Ms Dempsey and Mr. Kelly. Following the meeting we will send the presentations they have given us together with a transcript of the meeting to the Minister for Education and Skills for comment. We will keep them informed of any update we get. We will also have opportunities to bring the matters raised to the attention of the Minister. It is part of our programme to meet with the NCSE at some stage and we will raise the matters with it. The meeting is part of an ongoing review of the situation. I thank the witnesses for their time. We will have a short suspension before the next groups arrive.

Sitting suspended at 2.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.35 p.m.