I welcome Mr. John McKeon, Mr. Paul Carroll and Mr. Brian McCormick from the Department of Social Protection who will brief us on the implementation of the youth guarantee. I invite Mr. McKeon to make his presentation.
Youth Guarantee: Department of Social Protection
Mr. John McKeon
I thank the joint committee for inviting us to provide an update on Ireland's youth guarantee programme. I am joined by my colleague, Mr. Paul Carroll, principal officer with responsibility for all of the Department's operations in the Dublin north region which includes areas such as Ballymun, Finglas and Coolock. In that role he has responsibility for the Ballymun pilot youth guarantee scheme. I am also joined by Mr. Brian McCormick, assistant principal officer and a specialist labour market economist who played a large role in drafting the Irish youth guarantee programme and submitting our proposals to Brussels.
I will begin by talking about youth labour market trends. The Government's primary medium-term strategy to tackle youth unemployment is to create the environment for strong economic recovery by promoting competitiveness and productivity. Economic recovery will underpin jobs growth. Experience suggests youth unemployment, which tends to rise relatively rapidly in a downturn, can be expected to fall relatively rapidly during recovery. There is evidence that this is occurring in Ireland. The youth unemployment rate fell from 29% at the end of 2011 to 24% at the end of 2013, while the number of young unemployed fell by 19,000 from 68,000 to 49,000 in the same period.
It is hoped this improvement in youth unemployment trends will continue. In this regard it is noteworthy that the reduction in youth unemployment over the past number of months is correlated with a recovery in employment levels among young people. For example, the proportion of 20 to 24 year olds who are in employment rose from 45.9% at the end of 2012 to 49.3% at the end of 2013, the first such increase in six years. However, it must also be acknowledged that the overall fall in youth unemployment since its peak reflects a number of factors, including an underlying decline in the young adult population and more young people staying on longer in education and emigration. Accordingly, in addition to promoting medium-term economic recovery to promote jobs growth, the Government recognises the need for measures to support young unemployed people in competing for these job opportunities and to keep young jobseekers close to the labour market.
Key to this approach will be the implementation of the EU recommendation on a youth guarantee, the objective of which is to ensure that young people receive a quality offer of training, education, work experience or employment within four months of becoming unemployed. In Ireland’s case we intend to achieve this objective by enhancing the Intreo engagement with newly unemployed young people, extending the range of interventions available to young people and maintaining and developing the current range of education, training and employment interventions for young people. If current trends continue, the impact of the new and existing interventions will also be supported by the recovery in the economy and, by extension, employment levels. In agreeing the recommendation on the youth guarantee, the European Council accepted that the guarantee of an offer of training, education or work experience after a four month period for those aged 18 to 24 years should be implemented on a phased basis in those countries, such as Ireland, which face significant fiscal constraints. None the less, while financial constraints remain a reality in terms of roll-out, Ireland will be implementing the guarantee from a very advantageous position, as recognised by both the EU and OECD. Many of the elements that will make up the guarantee at EU level are already in place in Ireland through the Pathways to Work and related strategies. These include Intreo, the transformative new employment service helping people back to work; JobBridge, the national internship scheme; JobsPlus, the wage subsidy scheme for employers; and work experience options such as Tús and gateway.
In implementing the guarantee as set out in the implementation plan published by the Government in January, we will build on these elements and, where conditions require and allow, expand them as necessary. In this regard we will focus on increasing the impact of these schemes in terms of supporting young unemployed people, with a particular focus in the first instance on young people who are most distant from the labour market, in other words, those who even in the Celtic tiger era would have faced difficulty in accessing the labour market. Accordingly, the guarantee as approved by the Government and commended by the EU Commission involves the following: modifying the Intreo process to ensure more intensive engagement with young people; increasing the number of places on schemes available to and accessed by young people; earmarking a quota of opportunities on existing schemes for young people, including, in addition to Department of Social Protection schemes, opportunities for accessing entrepreneurship funds via Micro Finance Ireland and training and further education opportunities through the Department of Education and Skills and its agencies; and introducing a developmental internship programme for the most disadvantaged young people between 18 and 25 years of age. These will be young people who have been identified as having significant barriers to gaining employment. Under this programme employers will be asked to make work experience places available for young people aged 18 to 25 years with low levels of educational attainment, long periods of unemployment and other social barriers to employment. It is proposed that at any one time 1,500 young people will participate in this programme and participation will be mandatory for those selected. We will also improve the JobsPlus subsidy arrangements for employing young people by reducing the qualifying period those aged under 25 years from 12 months to four months in respect of young people who are assessed as having a low to medium probability of leaving the live register. This is line with recommendations from the OECD. In line with EU recommendations to improve labour mobility within the EU, we will introduce an international mobility and language skills development programme for young people.
By the end of 2014 processes and programmes will be rolled out to ensure that all of those young unemployed people who need most support, that is, those who are assessed as having a low probability of securing employment in the absence of support from the public employment services, will receive a youth guarantee offer within four months. In keeping with the Government’s broader focus on tackling long-term unemployment, we will first target interventions at young people most at risk of long-term unemployment. In this way, we will ensure that our resources are prioritised to help those who are most in need. In 2012 some 56,000 young people joined the live register as wholly unemployed and some 35,000, or 63%, of these remained unemployed for four months or more. The target of the guarantee approach will over time be to reduce this level of persistent unemployment among young people. As part of the implementation of the youth guarantee it is proposed, subject to labour market and economic developments, to review the targeted nature of the youth guarantee offer before the end of 2015.
As I have already said, the youth guarantee implementation plan was published in January. It provides over 28,000 programme opportunities for unemployed young people in 2014, as set out in the table circulated to members. This figure excludes some 24,000 places provided for young people through post-leaving certificate courses, PLCs, and apprenticeships. Although not reserved for unemployed jobseekers, these PLC and apprenticeship places, together with the wide range of vocational third-level courses provided for young people, nevertheless contribute to the spirit of the guarantee. In regard to the 28,500 places for unemployed young people, approximately 5,000 of these were taken up in the first four months of 2014. This is broadly in line with expectations, as the student intake on certain programmes, such as the vocational training opportunity scheme, VTOS, and back to education allowance are concentrated in September and October, in line with the academic calendar. A new intake of young people to the second iteration of the momentum programme for long-term unemployed jobseekers is also scheduled for later in the year.
In addition, it is important to note that some of the initiatives planned under the guarantee require primary legislation to allow positive discrimination on age grounds in the provision of employment services and supports. We hope this legislation will be enacted as part of the Social Welfare and Pensions Bill due to come before the Oireachtas in June. Two employment schemes in particular, the youth guarantee developmental internship programme and the JobsPlus variant for young people, are dependent on this legislation being passed. The JobsPlus variant will be available as soon as possible after the relevant legislation has been cleared. The developmental internship, which will include a pre-internship training period, will be in place no later than the autumn. Passage of the legislation will also permit the introduction of earlier and more intensive engagement by Intreo with young unemployed people.
The cost of implementing the youth guarantee will be met, in the first instance, by the Irish Exchequer. However, it is expected that a number of these youth programmes will meet European Social Fund, ESF, and youth employment initiative, YEI, eligibility criteria and will be included in the relevant applications for Ireland. This will permit EU funding to be drawn down in respect of expenditure in 2014 and 2015 to a level that should enable the full YEI allocation for Ireland of €68.1 million in current prices, with a further similar amount in ESF funding, to be taken up over those two years. Given the way the funding is structured, in order to recoup these amounts from the EU in due course, it will be necessary that we spend, in the first instance, close to €100 million on relevant programmes each year, or close to €200 million in 2014 and 2015 overall. It is anticipated that actual expenditure will be significantly in excess of that amount over the period concerned. Taking existing and planned provision together, the current estimate of programme uptake by young people in 2014 of approximately 28,000 will involve associated programme costs of €336 million. If all post-leaving certificate course and apprenticeship provisions are included, the total programme uptake of approximately 52,000 has associated programme costs of €528 million.
Even in advance of the adoption of the national implementation plan, the Department of Social Protection, in conjunction with local groups, had secured EU funding of €250,000 to pilot a youth guarantee scheme in Ballymun.
All under 25s on the live register in the Ballymun area are being targeted for inclusion in the pilot scheme. The Ballymun pilot youth guarantee scheme is developing an activation approach tailored to the needs of young people, guaranteeing access to career guidance-assistance leading to identification of an individual career plan for the young unemployed person concerned, with a follow through to training, education, work experience or full-time employment. A particular focus of the scheme is to involve and build links with employers in the locality and the immediate hinterland to ensure the guidance and training elements of the scheme are tailored to the needs of the local labour market and to generate work placement-experience opportunities for participants.
The pilot youth guarantee scheme involves an initial group engagement at the Intreo centre followed by a referral to the Local Employment Service for a one-to-one interview with a LES officer when a detailed progression plan will be prepared. The result of this plan will be an offer of training, education, work experience or a job within four months. All persons aged under 25 years on the live register in the Ballymun area are eligible for the pilot scheme. Feedback from the scheme will be taken into account in the ongoing implementation of the youth guarantee in other areas of the country.
I hope I have adequately set out the current position on the introduction of the youth guarantee in Ireland and how it will be rolled out across the country in the coming months. I will be pleased to answer questions.
I thank Mr. McKeon for his comprehensive briefing on the youth guarantee. We are all in agreement that it will be a great scheme to get people back to work. I visited the Ballymun project recently. Mick Creedon is phenomenal, given the wealth of knowledge and experience he has brought to it. He was generous with his time and spent several hours going over all the work being done. What is happening is outstanding.
Mr. McKeon mentioned funding. How much has the Department received to date?
Mr. John McKeon
We will not receive any funding until we spend money. It will be probably be 2016 before we receive any funding from the European Union.
I refer to the funding of €250,000.
Mr. John McKeon
I am sorry; Mr. Carroll will take that question.
Mr. Paul Carroll
That funding is readily available. We have drawn down 40% of it, but we have incurred minimal expense to date because most of the effort is focused on greater utilisation of the resources available rather than having to tap into the funding from the European Union. We will use it over the course of the programme which will run up to the end of December.
Therefore, the money is available.
Mr. Paul Carroll
Absolutely; there is no issue or difficulty in respect of finances.
There are no recommendations for people with disabilities, particularly those with an intellectual disability, and these are badly missing. There is nothing in the scheme to help them. I cannot find anything that deals with mental health problems, mobility issues or disabilities. The people concerned want to work and enter the jobs market, but they cannot access any opportunity.
This is a serious issue because we want to keep young people in training and education with a sense of hope and possibility for the future. I wrote a report on this issue in 2013. What has happened since? Will Mr. McKeon outline what is new? Will he provide statistics for the increases across the schemes, not just Ballymun? By how much has the take-up for JobBridge, JobsPlus, Tús, MOMENTUM, Youthreach, Microfinance Ireland, SOLAS, EURAS, Intreo and VTOS and of the back to education allowance, PLC, third level and Springboard places, respectively, increased?
I am interested in the arts. A press release has been issued about the meeting of the education, youth culture and sports Council in Brussels on 20 and 21 May. Is Mr. McKeon aware of this?
Mr. John McKeon
No.
Is there a crossover? This has a major part to play in terms of the youth guarantee across the board, especially in the context of mainstream education, vocational education and an education for the disabled. It is an fantastic, enormous document, but there does not seem to be a crossover with the youth guarantee scheme. Will Mr. McKeon comment on this?
I thank the officials for attending and their presentation. The committee has discussed the reduction in the level of youth unemployment which could be due to emigration and young people remaining in education, as well as some going back to work. How many have returned to work? We know the percentage reduction, but we would like to know how many are going back to work as opposed to emigrating and so on?
On the previous occasion we discussed the JobBridge scheme with the officials we were informed that there was a 60% success rate in people gaining employment following an internship. Has this percentage increased or decreased? As I have stated previously, I know of employers who have taken people on under the scheme and who have then reduced the hours of their full-time employees. The officials are making faces, but this is happening. I reported this to social welfare officers at the time because the permanent employee had been given reduced hours as a result of the free labour provided through the internship, which is not good enough. An employer who does this should not be granted another intern.
I was contacted by a young man who has returned to education via the Springboard programme. He is undertaking a culinary arts course in an institute of technology. He was given a form to apply to take an intensive course next year run by Bord Fáilte through the institute of technology, which is grand. His employer told him that he could gain some work experience over the summer while he was waiting to start his next course. The poor lad is betwixt and between because if he does that work, he will not qualify for the back to education allowance to take the next course. He will have to refuse work, which is the kernel of the problem. People will not take up work opportunities because they will lose their benefits. That should not happen to this young lad. He should be allowed to take his summer job and return to take his next course in a few months. He did not even complete the junior certificate programme, but, with the help of his parents, he went back to education and is trying to re-educate himself. He now finds that the State is working against him by penalising him if he engages in summer employment. That issue needs to be addressed.
One of the platforms of the youth guarantee is flexibility. Therefore, what is happening to this young man is not supposed to happen. One is supposed to be able to move freely; one is not supposed to be penalised, depending on which scheme one is moving to and from.
The problem is that the youth guarantee has not been rolled out. We need this to happen. Mr. McKeon has outlined dates for the passage of the legislation. Let us get it through. What is holding it up?
What is holding the legislation up? Let us get it through. Why is it being held up so long? I thought the Minister might be here today so that we could speak about this, but she is not. We are now halfway through 2014 and another year will be gone before we get it.
I have a concern. Wording is very important and people can cover a lot up with wording. Mr. McKeon said:
The cost of implementing the youth guarantee will be met, in the first instance, by the Irish Exchequer. However, it is expected that a number of these youth programmes will meet European Social Fund, ESF, and youth employment initiative, YEI, eligibility criteria and will be included in the relevant applications for Ireland.
I do not want to hear that it is expected to meet eligibility criteria; I want to know that it will meet them. What is the point in saying that we thought it would, if it does not? We need to know it will meet the eligibility criteria.
Mr. McKeon stated that the programme would cost €528 million for 52,000 people.
For what?
That is taking everything into account. It is taking in stuff outside the youth guarantee.
It is a big figure for 52,000 people.
Senator Marie Louise O'Donnell
What does one get if one divides 52,000 into €528 million?
Mr. John McKeon
It is a good question; I would have to do the sums.
My initial questions seek to tease out the figures for the costings, after which I will ask some general questions about Mr. McKeon's comments this afternoon.
Tús and Gateway are very similar schemes, with Tús operating in the community sector and Gateway in the local authorities. The table the Department provided seems to indicate that spending on Gateway works out at approximately €5,555 per young person - €2.5 million divided by 450. However, Tús works out at €15,900 per person - €15.9 million divided by 1,000. What is the reason for the difference in the cost?
The table also indicates that the 2014 costing per young person on community employment works out at €28,000. Is that for one year longer? Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh received a reply to a parliamentary question indicating the average cost of a CE place for one year, including income support and all of their costs for items such as training fees and materials, is €13,500. I seek clarification on the difference.
What are included in the costs column on the right hand side of the table? Does that include everything - income support, training fees, materials and administration? Does it reflect full-year costs or only what is expected to be spent in 2014? If so, how would it compare with a full year's costs?
I believe there will be a review of the scheme at the end of 2015. Should a review not be carried out sooner, given that the funding is over 2014 and 2015? Earlier, Mr. McKeon outlined what the Department would be spending in 2014 and 2015. Do we not want to ensure, before the money is spent or allocated, that we are doing everything right? I know Mr. McCormick spoke at the conference in Brussels in April, which I also attended. He used the car analogy to describe the youth guarantee in Ireland, explaining that we were upgrading existing schemes and might be able to do more down the line; I do not want to get into it. To expand on the car analogy, it would be akin to having an NCT but having it too late and not being able to establish if the car is up to scratch.
I wish to deal with JobBridge for disadvantaged youths. This issue has been raised by some youth groups I have met. There is obviously concern about the compulsion involved. How does the Department ensure the positions are suitable for young people? I know the plan makes reference to preparation courses prior to commencement. What will these courses involve? How do we ensure we have good-quality placements? What stage have we reached in the design of that? Mr. McKeon spoke today about mandatory participation. How will the participants be selected for that?
I know the Ballymun pilot is only for people on the live register in that area. The plan does not indicate how it might be extended to people who are not on the live register and who are not perhaps engaging with the public employment services. I ask Mr. McKeon to elaborate on that.
Mr. McKeon mentioned positive discrimination as if legislation to deal with that would be coming up in June. He referred to increasing the number of places on schemes available to, and accessed by, young people and earmarking a quota of opportunities on existing schemes for young people. The Pathways to Work programme states that because young people are getting these places ring-fenced there is a compulsion and they will be penalised if they do not take them up. Does Mr. McKeon foresee problems because some people are being put at a disadvantage, specifically in the cases of ring-fencing, where there is not additionality but it is just the case that these are the places and we will now have a ring-fence around a certain number of them for young people?
Mr. John McKeon
I will start with the questions on the costing, because there is a common interest in that. I will not get the calculator out to do the sums, but I promise I will come back to the Senator through the committee secretariat to show her how the figures are worked out. In short, the cost of provision is a function of the average number, which is a function of the inflow, the outflow, the stock and when things start. For example, Gateway is only starting, whereas schemes such as community employment and Tús are already available and we are incurring costs on them. We already have young people on Tús and community employment; there are only a few people on Gateway. So the costs for the year on Gateway will be considerably less in 2014 than the costs for Tús or CE. It is a timing issue, but we will get to that.
I was asked about the €500 million. That is the cost, and it works out at roughly €10,000 per person. A large part of the cost of these schemes is the underlying welfare payment. Not everybody on these schemes would be in receipt of a welfare payment, but for those in receipt of a welfare payment the welfare payment cost is included, and this comprises a big part of the cost.
I ask Mr. McKeon to deal with the question, because we have a vote in the Seanad.
Mr. John McKeon
Which question?
The question on disability.
Mr. John McKeon
We are operating this under the EU recommendation, and the funding that is available is specifically for unemployed people. That is what this is about. We accept and acknowledge that there is-----
What about unemployed people who have a disability?
Mr. John McKeon
In this context-----
May I suggest that we suspend the meeting? With the exception of the Chairman and one other, the rest of us are Senators.
We still have a few minutes, so we will not suspend immediately. We can suspend in a few minutes for the duration of that vote.
Mr. John McKeon
In the case of young people with disabilities, the scheme is specifically targeted. The measure of unemployment which is used and which has been used by the European Union and the Department is the ILO, International Labour Organization, measure, which does not include people with disabilities, and that is what we have been particularly asked to deal with. Everybody has an interest in doing what he can to help not just young people but people generally with disabilities back to work. We have a number of schemes and services already in place. Arguably, prior to the introduction of Intreo and things like the youth guarantee, the schemes and services in place for people with disability actually exceeded those in place for people without disabilities. Not many people know about these, even though we try to promote them. There are very attractive employment subsidies for employing somebody with a disability - much more attractive than JobsPlus. There are workplace adaptation grants. We pay for job coaches to sit beside people and mentor them while they go into work. We pay for extra supervisors. All of those schemes are in place. A big part of the challenge is making them known and promoting them to employers.
If members want, we can-----
It might give people the opportunity to run their eye over the education, youth, culture and sport document.
Sitting suspended at 2.10 p.m. and resumed at 2.25 p.m.
Mr. McKeon was in the middle of answering questions.
Mr. John McKeon
We had spoken about disability. I will ask Mr. Carroll to deal with the question on the back to education allowance.
Mr. Paul Carroll
The Department is very flexible in trying to assist people getting back to work or progressing and I ask Senator Moloney to pass on to me the details of the individual. While there is certain conditionality with regard to receiving the back to education allowance it should be such that if the young person had an entitlement before he started, which he did because at present he is on Springboard, he can work during the summer and it is certainly something I would encourage.
He is not on Springboard now. The second part of the course is not within Springboard. It is progressive and it is FETAC level 6.
Mr. Paul Carroll
It sounds fantastic. Working during the summer should not be an impediment in this regard so long as he had a qualifying payment immediately prior to receipt. His claim will link back to a previous claim so it should not in any way affect his underlying entitlement to the back to education allowance.
I am glad to hear that. I contacted the Intreo office and in fairness to the person I dealt with, and I must put on record the Intreo office in Killarney is second to none and the staff are outstanding and a great help to people, the only solution we could come up with was that the person would work three days and keep his entitlement to jobseeker's allowance.
Mr. Paul Carroll
If the Senator passes on the information to me I will speak with my colleague in Cork and we will see what we can do to facilitate it.
It is the principle of the thing. It is not only with regard to this individual. It must not happen anywhere in Ireland.
Mr. Paul Carroll
In principle we want to facilitate people going into full-time employment and we are devising and developing programmes which have an element of work experience. It is an issue we are teasing out in Ballymun as to how to best facilitate it.
I will liaise with Mr. Carroll.
Mr. Paul Carroll
Excellent.
Mr. John McKeon
I will deal with the other questions and if I miss any I ask members to remind me at the end. A question was raised about positive discrimination and legislation. We have draft legislation with the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel and it is intended to include it in the social welfare Bill which will come before the Houses of the Oireachtas in June with a target of enactment sometime in July. Whether it makes it into the first draft of the Bill or comes in as a Committee Stage amendment is a matter for the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel which is finishing the technical drafting of the Bill. Some technical issues have arisen. It is certainly our intention to have it in the Bill for consideration by the Oireachtas. Unfortunately, while the European Union equality directive allows us to discriminate positively in favour of young people our national legislation does not so we must make this change.
Is it with regard to the Equal Status Act?
Mr. John McKeon
No it is the Employment Equality Acts 1998 and 2004 which have a prohibition on the public employment service discriminating in its treatment of people based on age. We must deal with this.
I will speak for a moment on JobBridge for disadvantaged youths and I ask committee members to interrupt me if I do not hit the point of the question. JobBridge is about breaking the cycle of not being able to get work without experience but not being able to get experience without a job. Even in the good years some young people would not have had a chance, such as those who may have a record with the probation service or drug addiction problems, or who left school very early. We are canvassing employers to make 1,500 work experience places available for this cohort of young people. We will work closely with them in our Intreo centres and prepare them for work. We will work with the Education and Training Boards on work preparation programmes. If they are offered a place which we believe is appropriate to them and would give them work experience to enable them to go on another step we will ask them to take up the opportunity. It will be somewhat different to the current JobBridge programme in that it will involve a four day rather than a five day week. This extra day can be used for training, job search or other activities. In the context of the guarantee and the cost it will be mandatory, but it will only be mandatory where one of our case officers determines a person can and will benefit from it.
With regard to the review by the end of 2015 the committee should take it as read that we will monitor progress and follow the numbers and trends. It is difficult to undertake a formal review of the impact of schemes which require 12 months work placement or 12 months on Tús. One must let the schemes run their course before a formal review can be done. We will watch the outcomes and if there are any early warning signs we will tailor what we do to take account of them.
Senator Moloney asked about the language and use of the word "expected". We have deliberately used this language. We are fully confident they will qualify but we cannot state they will do so because it is in the gift of the European Commission. This document will go to the Commission so we cannot tell it that it will give us this money, we must tell them we expect it will. This is where the language comes from.
With regard to the issues about full-time employees being displaced by JobBridge all I can say is it is not something we will tolerate if we find out about it. We have disallowed employers from using JobBridge, not unlike the case mentioned. If committee members have details they should send them to us and we will investigate them.
I already reported it locally.
Mr. John McKeon
The Senator should feel free to send it on to me directly also and I will ensure it is followed up. We are aware and understand the criticism of JobBridge because of employers who if they see a way to arbitrage the system will do so, but we will not tolerate it.
A question was asked about the success of JobBridge. We will commission further research this year to evaluate JobBridge. The internal figures we have examine known progression to employment immediately at the end of JobBridge and this supports the fact it is still above 60%. We must be conscious of the fact that people who sign off the live register do not have to tell us what they are doing. We rely on people when they sign off stating they are going into employment. They can sign off and not tell us. We do not get responses from approximately 20% to 30% of people. They just sign off and that is it. Of those about whom we know we are confident the figure of 60% is maintained.
Surely people signing off the live register sign on with Revenue and we should be able to collate the figures.
Mr. John McKeon
We do and we receive commencement of employment notices from the Revenue Commissioners but many employers work on these notices once a year when they are working on their P35s.
The P35 returns are done at the end of the year but the employee must register for tax credits.
Mr. John McKeon
There can be considerable delay in this information coming back. We find a typical delay of two to three months. It is not the fault of the Revenue Commissioners or us, it is that there can be delays on the part of the employer and employee.
Senator Moloney asked a question about the fall in youth unemployment, and how many have gone back to work and how many are emigrating.
There are data in the implementation plan of the youth guarantee which, on page 29, break down the numbers. I would encourage Senator Moloney to have a look at that.
There has been a significant increase in youth emigration. We all will be aware of families - for example, friends of my children - who have emigrated. It has, certainly, based on the Central Statistics Office numbers, tapered off and decreased somewhat. The most recent figures are for August 2013. There has not been an increase in emigration which would explain the reduction in unemployment during that period. I honestly do not believe that emigration has reduced unemployment. It certainly helped in stopping it increasing, but in my view the reduction in unemployment is genuinely down to people going back to work.
We missed an opportunity with the census in that there was not one question on the census form asking had someone emigrated from the person's home. It is a simple question but nobody ever asked it.
Mr. John McKeon
I will turn to the question of the report. We have just got a copy of it and I read it while Deputy O'Donnell was away.
Did Mr. McKeon take it in?
Mr. John McKeon
We did. There are two points I would make about it. First, there are some recommendations, for example, about youth entrepreneurship. We have got that covered in our implementation plan. There is a recommendation about mobility and language development and, as it happens, we have got that in our plan.
There are bigger matters than that in it. There is a significant amount of "cross-fertilisation". I hate such agricultural words, but there is a significant amount that could be used. If I hear the word "entrepreneurship" again, I will implode somewhere on a road when people have not the oracy to explain themselves. There is a considerable amount that could be done there in effective teaching, which the Department was doing within the vocational and other schemes as a given. There is an enormous amount in the arts and in sport that could be part of the youth guarantee. There should be some kind of that other dreadful cliché, "synergy", between this and the other.
Mr. John McKeon
I am glad Senator O'Donnell brought the report to my attention. There is, as she will be aware and as we mentioned on the last occasion, an interdepartmental group of senior officials which includes staff from the Department of Children and Youth Affairs and the Department of Education and Skills.
Mr. McKeon should suggest that a few Senators with a background in culture, arts and education might get onto one of those committees and put those synergies together for him.
There are two great volunteers here, are there not?
No. I am not volunteering myself.
Mr. John McKeon
I will ensure that the report is considered and taken on board. Senator O'Donnell also asked about the increase in places and could state exactly how many places there are.
The data.
Mr. John McKeon
There is a net addition. I will give the sums of money, but I will come to the places as well. Within the Department of Social Protection, the Department of Education and Skills, etc., there is approximately €46 million of additional expenditure this year compared to previous years directly attributable to the youth guarantee on places, etc. Those places are made up as follows. There are 1,500 on JobsPlus. There are approximately 2,000 on the internship programme - although there are 1,500 places at any one point in time, because it is of a six-to-nine month duration, we will get approximately 2,000 through it. We have an extra 1,000 places for young people on the Tús scheme. Regarding the places we are talking about for the language and international mobility, we have 250 places this year to see how that goes. We are talking to our colleagues, in particular, in Germany, about that, and to the education and training board in Dublin about running a language programme to make it happen. On MOMENTUM, which is in the Department of Education and Skills, there are 2,000. To use the word Senator O'Donnell mentioned, "entrepreneurship", the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation has a microfinance fund. The Taoiseach launched some information about this recently. It is planned that approximately 700 young people will qualify for funding.
That kind of information is useful.
Mr. John McKeon
I will set this out.
It might be interesting to send us a page with all of that together. It is disparate. One must go looking. In looking for the numbers, one does not find easily the Microfinance Ireland funding for entrepreneurship. Mr. McKeon might provide that, within the parameters of the going and the coming, so that members would have at their fingertips how many people are on these courses. As Mr. McKeon states, some of them are only just beginning and with some of them one cannot tell at present.
Mr. John McKeon
We will certainly make that available through the secretariat.
Before this meeting, the Oireachtas Library and Research Service circulated the committee with a document and it contains some of them.
It has some of them. I suggest bringing them together. They are quite disparate.
It is a good idea.
Mr. Paul Carroll
Even to make concrete some of what Mr. McKeon is saying, today there is a course starting in Croke Park. It is a course in social entrepreneurship that is being provided by the UCD Innovation Academy as part of the Ballymun youth guarantee. It is a part-time programme over 18 weeks. It is about creative thinking and positive thinking. The hope would be that many of the participants there would progress to self-employment or, if not, they are the kinds of persons that we want in business who are problem solvers and creative thinkers. We will be providing support after the event.
For those who have a specific idea about what they would like to do in terms of self-employment, we will be supporting them through the funding provided by Microfinance Ireland or the credit union loan guarantee and the soft supports that either the LEO or the partnership would be providing. There is, in fact, a lot of synergy going on. There is a lot of creative thinking going on. We are absolutely committed to trying to harness the entrepreneurial spirit and innovation of those within the committee. In fact, we will be thinking beyond the mere 18-week course provided by UCD Innovation Academy asking, for example, if there are opportunities in terms of developing innovative CE schemes where the young people in the community can identify gaps in provision within the community and go on themselves to start up companies, either in the public or private sector. It is an issue of which we are well aware and which we are doing our best to support.
There was a question about the pilot Ballymun youth guarantee scheme and why it was confined to the live register. There is an agreement with the European Union, which is providing the vast bulk of the funding for it. We have a contract with the Union to deliver and we are not at liberty to broaden the scope of it, although, as my colleague, Mr. McKeon, stated, there is a broad range of other supports available to employers to assist those who have disabilities or who are not fully able to go back to work.
In terms of how real it is on the ground, we only became operational in Ballymun at the end of January. Our commitment to the young people of Ballymun is that we will give each of them who is signing on to the live register a guarantee - a quality offer of education, training, development, work experience or work, within a period of four months after a one-to-one engagement.
So far, the findings are good. We have seen 360 people so far of which, already, 75% have been given a quality offer. Some 60% of those are into education and 40% into employment.
Is that in Ballymun?
Mr. Paul Carroll
That is in Ballymun. It is important to note that this is a particular scheme looking at particular issues involving a partnership of all of the key stakeholders. I am delighted that the committee had the opportunity to have a chat with Mick Creedon. He is an enormous asset. I can say that equally of all of the partners. We are getting tremendous support from business, from employers and from the education and training board. It is a wonderful and real and tangible partnership, not only people sat around a table. We all are totally committed to doing what we can to support those back into employment.
Notwithstanding the fact that we are awaiting legislative approval to be able to introduce a broader range of schemes, it is not only that things are happening in Ballymun. The committee might be aware that in February last we invited all of the young people in Swords to an event in IBAT. There were 400 young people on the live register in Swords and we provided opportunities with employers. It was a big event, with all of the employers in the area and with the education and training providers. It has been hugely successful. Some 27% of them are now in employment.
Out of curiosity, how many out of the 400 turned up to the event?
Mr. Paul Carroll
There were 32 claims closed. That is also a feature of engagement. We find that when we begin to actively engage, suddenly, a percentage of people disappear.
It also shows that people are willing to participate.
Mr. Paul Carroll
Absolutely. I got the figures recently and I will go through them.
There were 411 invited, of whom 63 are now in full-time employment, 19 are in casual employment, 15 are involved in internships and two are participating in Tús. Therefore, there are now 99 young people in Swords in some form of employment who, before February, were on the live register. A further 193 are undertaking courses of further education, training or development. It is not a case of waiting to see what happens in Ballymun; we are learning from the project on an ongoing basis and certainly applying in my division knowledge of what has been learned. My colleagues' divisional managers are attending a meeting today at which the youth guarantee is very much on the agenda and I have been asked to supply support. With regard to the approach we are adopting in Swords and potentially the approach we are adopting in Ballymun, the knowledge is being applied on an ongoing basis, notwithstanding the fact that there will not be a formal review of the project until September. I assure the committee that there are many ongoing developments.
I have a very general question. I still want to divide 580 million by 52,000.
Mr. John McKeon
It is about 10,000.
Ten thousand multiplied by 52,000 is not 580 million.
Mr. John McKeon
It is 520 million.
With a view to addressing the issue of youth unemployment, does Mr. McKeon believe his Department is using modern media well to communicate information on all of the various programmes available using the language of young people? I refer to youth media, specialist youth channels, radio, the written press, youth press and college press. Is there a place for the Department to develop and accentuate this approach?
We will return to that issue. I want to allow Deputy Brendan Ryan to contribute.
Gateway is the local authority programme. Is this a vehicle the Department is using to satisfy the youth guarantee criteria also?
Mr. John McKeon
It is part of it.
It is very important for all of us that Gateway succeed. As we know, the trade unions have bought into it and are very supportive of it. My point concerns both youth and older workers. In the patch Mr. Carroll and I know well, there is some feedback from the local authority to the effect that some of the individuals who have been selected may be individuals whom the local office wants or has not been able to move on in different ways. In some cases, they may be unemployable or people who have really struggled to find work, even in the boom. I understand Gateway does not have a supervisory element to it. If it is to succeed and people in the category to which I refer are being chosen, we need some funding for supervision. It is in everybody's interests that the programme succeed.
With regard to the expected inflow of young people, is the figure for the back-to-work enterprise allowance 200?
Mr. John McKeon
Yes.
Similarly, the figure for Gateway is low. Community employment must also be considered in this regard.
With regard to the back-to-work enterprise allowance, should we not be aiming to have more young people set up their own companies and businesses? I have noticed that some people in receipt of the back-to-work enterprise allowance are individuals from an older generation who are returning to self-employment having been on social welfare. I have no problem with this, but if there were more young people using the allowance, there might be start-up companies, perhaps in the technology sector. Should we not aim to have more in this category?
I participated in a social employment scheme when I was young and found it very beneficial. With regard to Gateway, particularly because it concerns local authorities, should we not want young people to gain experience in local authorities' planning, arts or heritage departments? Why is the figure for Gateway so low?
Mr. John McKeon
I will answer some of those questions and then ask Mr. Carroll to contribute.
On the back-to-work enterprise allowance, the figure of 200 reflects our experience that the scheme is more attractive to older people than younger people.
Could we not do something about this?
Mr. John McKeon
The number associated with youth entrepreneurship training and mentoring supports is 700, while the figure associated with microfinance is 150. The three must be taken together. The sums of 700 and 150 represent an additional effort.
As Mr. Carroll is much more familiar with Gateway than I am, I will ask him to deal with it. I am almost certain the programme does have a supervisory element, although I will ask Mr. Carroll to clarify this. I know that there was some talk to the effect that there was no supervisory element, but there may have been a misunderstanding. I absolutely agree that the programme could provide a very good pathway to employment. The objective is to deal with long-term unemployment. Generally, the proportion who are long-term unemployed is higher among older than younger groups, thus affecting the figures.
Sometimes there is talk about people who are unemployable - I say it myself from time to time. There are some on the live register who will find it very difficult in every circumstance to find a job. However, even at the height of the Celtic tiger, there were approximately 150,000 people on the live register, of whom approximately 100,000 were short-term unemployed. There was frictional unemployment. One is looking at a hard cohort of 50,000. There are approximately 400,000 on the live register, whcih means that there are more than enough on it who are capable of doing a job. Most people on it are employable and the vast majority want to work. It is a question of the Department giving them the right support and direction. Mr. Carroll will refer to Gateway also.
With regard to communication with young people, being in my 50s, I am loath to say we are on point, but we do make an effort. We use Twitter, Facebook and other social media, including YouTube and such resources. In my experience, however, the most effective communication mechanism which will not be affected by any development in IT or otherwise is face to face communication. We invest most of our resources in face to face work using our case officers. The Intreo approach is about getting to speak to individuals. Perhaps Mr. Carroll might elaborate on this.
Mr. Paul Carroll
I agree absolutely that we need to consider how we communicate with young people. Employers, not young people-----
With regard to hiring, the communication is a little dull and indifferent. The youth guarantee is very important. My document of 2013 which nobody read mentioned Ballymun, the youth guarantee and the Gateway project which is exactly what the delegation is talking about. The Finnish Government launched a road show. I am not suggesting one use the equivalent of a Fossett's Circus tent, but in a way, there is nothing wrong with this. Those involved went to the major cities to ascertain, with the various local authorities, what were the major or diverse needs. I raise the question of communication because it is always one of how one communicates. Of course, one to one communication is paramount. The Ballymun initiative is about finding the path with the individual, but it is imperative, for the sake of the energy of the scheme, that communication be good.
Mr. Paul Carroll
I agree entirely. We must use multiple channels and interfaces. I refer not only to communication by the Department but also by the other partners.
In Ballymun, we are fortunate in having the Ballymun Regional Youth Resource, BRYR, a youth centre that is engaging with the most marginalised people.
We have been examining what we say to people and how we say it. This is just one of the ways in which we are communicating. As some of the literature that traditionally issued from the Department might be seen as formal or turgid, this is a way of brightening it up and getting a message across. We have a youth website, youthguarantee.ie, which we are using to communicate with people. We had Facebook and Twitter accounts in respect of the youth guarantee, but I was concerned that they had insufficient back-end resourcing. We should not publish a site unless people are able to respond at the other end. It is using-----
Are there radio and television adverts?
Mr. Paul Carroll
Not for the Ballymun youth guarantee. The budget does not stretch that far.
There should be generally. The banks are telling us every day that they will save our lives even though they have ruined us. Only €100,000 has been earmarked for this, but there is a place for a good radio advert and a good, short television advert highlighting all of the work the Department is doing.
I agree. As the Seanad is debating this matter, I wonder whether we should be-----
I know, but I would be quite happy to meet people. This is important. The public needs to know about this kind of work. So do Members if they are to be able to explain what is happening. Much of it is internal-----
Mr. John McKeon
If I could address something.
-----and kind of dead from the neck down. We do not want that at our age.
Mr. John McKeon
Absolutely. The Senator mentioned roadshows. Just to make her aware, that is what we did last year. We have already done it again this year. We hit nine locations around the country and employers and jobseekers attended. We have met more than 2,000 employers at various roadshows and presented the Department's offerings to them. We have done a great deal of good work with employers and are in constant communication. We have been on local radio stations and so on giving interviews rather than advertising.
Given my background before joining the Civil Service, I am familiar with what the banks did. If a communication campaign is to get the message across, we need to move beyond television and radio. Much of this matter is complex. I am not disagreeing with-----
Of course the Department will not get everyone, but that should not stop it. It could be clever and give a bit of creative thought to how such advertising could be used to its best advantage.
We should not need the youth guarantee to implement measures that should exist naturally under the current process.
Mr. John McKeon
They are constantly under review and discussion.
It should be everyday work in an Intreo office to encourage people into education and taking up jobs. Extra funding is necessary to produce extra places, but the first thing young people who are signing on at their local offices should be told is what is available to them.
Mr. Paul Carroll
I can give the Senator an absolute guarantee that is happening.
Killarney is working like that. I hope the process is working around the country.
Mr. Paul Carroll
It is.
Dundalk is also working like that.
Mr. Paul Carroll
Last week, we held an event in Coolock where 600 people were invited to see 23 education and training providers that provide a multitude of courses from basic reading and writing right the way through to PhDs in DCU. We held an event the previous month in Finglas and another in Swords the month prior to that. We are monitoring the situation on an ongoing basis, not waiting for a big bang. It is a fundamental part of our work.
To answer the questions on Gateway, it is of major importance and has a significant contribution to make to the provision of a wealth of real employment opportunities for young people. We have recently agreed a pilot in Fingal that addresses many of the perceived issues in respect of the people being referred. Until fairly recently, the requirement was for random selections and the Department did not have a say in who could be sent. Neither could we send people for whom we felt it would be a great opportunity or just to get them off our books. It was a simple random selection process. We will trial a new approach. Generally, the Department has agreed that, henceforth, 20% of places can be filled by way of self-referral, which is a positive move. We are determining how to implement this idea logistically. In Fingal, we will write out and interview people to determine their suitability. There is a feedback loop. Where we invite people to attend and find them suitable, the local authority will consider the range of opportunities that might be suitable for those candidates. If it believes that the person presenting is not job ready, it will feed that information back to us to explain why. Clearly, we must be able to deal with whatever impeded that person from being able to progress. The feedback loop is built in. In terms of the-----
Is Mr. Carroll saying that no one will be referred without an interview?
Mr. Paul Carroll
No. There will be a random selection for Fingal. People will be written to and invited to attend. Fingal County Council will notify us of those who do not avail of the invitation, as they are obviously people with whom we will need to chat. We are asking people a range of questions. It is like a mini-curriculum vitae. On the face of it, Fingal County Council will determine if a person is not suitable for the range of available opportunities and will write to the person to that effect while thanking him or her for expressing an interest. The other cohort will attend interviews. Arising from those, people will either be offered opportunities or Fingal County Council will notify the Department of what made them unsuitable. It is a much more structured approach. It is not a question of inviting people to interviews when they will clearly not be suitable for jobs, as that can be frustrating and upsetting for them.
Recently, we received from Dublin City Council an offer of 50 guaranteed places in respect of the Ballymun youth guarantee. Those young people will engage in a broad range of activities, for example, maintenance, parks, the arts, the library and community services. As the Deputy knows, the local authority engages in a broad range of work. We are trying to be creative with the kinds of opportunities being presented as opposed to what is most people's belief on the matter, namely, putting people to work picking up litter.
What of supervision?
Mr. Paul Carroll
It is recognised. My understanding is that it has been addressed-----
(Interruptions).
Mr. Paul Carroll
-----and that financial provision has been made by the local authority in that regard.
For every project, there will be supervision.
Mr. Paul Carroll
That is my understanding.
We have had a good and informative discussion.
The joint committee adjourned at 3.10 p.m. until 1 p.m. on Wednesday, 4 June 2014.