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Joint Committee on Education and Social Protection debate -
Wednesday, 21 Oct 2015

Grangegorman Development Agency: Chairperson Designate

I welcome Mr. Oliver Cussen, chairperson designate of the Grangegorman Development Agency.

I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

At the request of the broadcasting services, witnesses and those in the public Gallery are requested to ensure that, for the duration of the meeting, their mobile phones are either turned off completely or switched to flight mode. Mr. Cussen's opening statement will be published on the committee website after the meeting.

The Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy O'Sullivan, has announced that she proposes to appoint Mr. Oliver Cussen as chairperson of the Grangegorman Development Agency. The agency is a statutory agency established in 2006 to redevelop the grounds of the former St. Brendan's Hospital in Dublin city centre. Its functions range from planning and constructing the redevelopment to handing over the new facilities on completion. Today we have an opportunity to engage with Mr. Cussen. As part of the programme for Government, when public appointments are made, in particular of chairpersons of State agencies, the Oireachtas has an opportunity to engage with those chairpersons before they take up their positions. This brings about more openness and transparency in respect of public appointments. This meeting is being held in public.

Mr. Oliver Cussen

I am very pleased to address the Chairman and members of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education and Social Protection as chairperson designate of the Grangegorman Development Agency. Tá an-áthas orm bheith libh agus deis agam gnó na Gníomhaireachta a phlé idir an obair atá curtha i gcrích go dtí seo agus an clár oibre atá amach romhainn.

The agency is charged with developing the grounds of the former St. Brendan’s Hospital, a 73-acre site, at Grangegorman in Dublin’s north inner city in order to create a major education, health and public resource. Therefore, the key stakeholders are the Health Service Executive, HSE, Dublin Institute of Technology, DIT, and the local community. The significance of this development is reflected in its inclusion as a strategic objective in the current and previous development plans for Dublin City, its inclusion in the National Development Plan as a key objective for higher education, its inclusion in Transport 21 as a key enabler to support the construction of Luas cross-city project and its inclusion as a flagship project in the national stimulus programme announced by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform in July 2012.

On completion, the project will contribute to educational, social and economic development locally and nationally. It will yield significant operational efficiencies for organisations such as DIT and, in the process of construction, create significant employment opportunities. It will also be a major driver for urban regeneration in Dublin’s north inner city.

It is perhaps worth noting the milestones passed to date and upcoming milestones. In May 2013, patients and staff from St. Brendan’s Hospital relocated to a new state-of-the-art replacement building, the Phoenix Care Centre. There is already feedback that this facility, with its modern design and layout, is having a positive effect on patients and other users. Recently, the first phase of the site infrastructure and public realm SIPR was completed. This consists of the laying of all critical utility services, major earthworks and development of the public realm, including paths, roads, green areas, lighting, seating and bike parking. A new surface water pipe connection to Smithfield has also been provided, as required by Dublin City Council. As of September 2015, all of the outdoor sports facilities are complete and the all-weather pitch, tennis courts and informal play area are all in use, while the GAA and soccer grass pitches will be ready for use next season. A new playground and jogging and walking track have also recently opened, and I am told they are proving very popular with the local community. The first 1,000 DIT students came to Grangegorman in September 2014. They are located in five of the protected structures around the site, which were refurbished to the highest standards, and some now form An Croí, the cultural heart of the site. The first new DIT building is nearing completion. The new greenway hub will create specialist research facilities for the environmental sustainability and health institute, ESHI, as well as incubation space for new companies. It is due to be handed over to DIT shortly. A new primary care centre is also being constructed for the HSE. This facility will deliver a range of health services including general practitioner services, occupational therapy, community nursing and counselling. It is due for completion in mid-2016 and will provide a significant new health service for the community around Grangegorman.

The next phase of the delivery of DIT services is through the construction of two major quads, the central and east quads. The central quad will be home to ten schools from the College of Sciences and Health, the College of Engineering and Built Environment and the College of Arts and Tourism. The east quad will accommodate the majority of academic activities and facilities required for the College of Creative and Cultural Industries. Both buildings were granted planning permission in July 2015. These buildings will bring 10,000 students, over half of DIT's student population, to Grangegorman. Other projects include the new primary school, which is at early design stage, a community nursing unit, which is at feasibility study stage, the academic hub, including a co-located DIT and public library, which is at the very early stages, and student accommodation, which is at early design stage. I have dealt with the quality of the planning and design in some detail in my submission and may move on from those instead of citing them in detail on this occasion. I am happy to come back to them if anybody wishes to ask me any questions.

The site is being developed on principles of sustainability, as would be expected and required in the world we live in now. Protected structures dating back to the late 19th and early 20th century are being brought back into use alongside new buildings.

A very important initiative has been the implementation of the Grangegorman local employment charter, which many committee members will be familiar with. The charter aims for 20% of new construction jobs to be filled by local people. At the height of construction there were 350 construction workers on site, 50 of whom were from the local area. Employment has been created and more will be created in areas such as direct labour in construction, as well as in indirect supporting professions such as architecture, engineering, and conservation. There is also a multiplier effect in areas such as concrete manufacturing and providers of equipment, fixtures and fittings. The employment charter was developed under the guidance of the labour and learning forum, LLF, which is chaired by former Secretary General of the Department and Education and Skills, Ms Brigid McManus. Other areas of focus for the group include local education opportunities and exploring opportunities for co-operation and synergies between the project and local businesses.

The LLF, in collaboration with DIT and local community groups, has been awarded a grant of just over €940,000 from the Department of Children and Youth Affairs and Atlantic Philanthropies. This area-based childhood, ABC, programme will fund an exciting series of activities from 2015 to 2017 to help improve outcomes for children up to six years of age and families living in the Grangegorman area.

Another significant but less tangible area is the importance of public art. A positive outcome of the project is the recent launch of “...the lives we live”, the Grangegorman public art programme, which has raised the profile of the project significantly. The programme of public art will be rolled out over the coming years and will encourage relationship building between the art community and the local community. It has already raised the profile of the project.

Another important dimension of the way the project has worked is a positive element which I have inherited. Throughout the life of the Grangegorman project communication has been a central feature. There are two formal stakeholder groups, the consultative group and the community liaison committee. The consultative group is made up of all stakeholders on the project and meets once a quarter. The community liaison committee is made up of all community representatives who are involved with the project and has a more local focus. It also includes representatives from the HSE, DIT, local gardaí and the city council. It meets once a month to discuss any current issues.

The newly appointed board, all of whom, bar one, I have met, has a wide range of competencies and a deep knowledge of key stakeholders. As chairperson I will seek to facilitate the board to the greatest extent possible to deploy this expertise and experience to progress the project over the next three years. The agency has a highly qualified and motivated staff. An important role for the chairperson and the board will be to keep the strategy under review, as appropriate; maintain the direction of the project; support the executive in implementing the strategy and ensure accountability for the overall effectiveness and efficiency of the agency in getting this important work advanced as quickly as possible.

I approach the job with humility and an openness to learn from the experience and expertise of all those involved in the project to date. This is combined with a firm purpose to maintain the momentum of the project, building on the robust physical and strategic planning framework in place, the strong relationships with key stakeholders and the expertise and experience at board and executive level. As chairperson I will call on my experience of the education sector during my time as an assistant secretary in the Department of Education and Skills, coupled with subsequent experience in a number of senior positions in the Dublin Airport Authority during a time of major infrastructural transformation, and service on boards in Ireland and overseas.

This is a wonderful project that will provide 73 acres of integrated public facilities, a major educational, health and community resource that will serve Ireland well into this century and beyond. It is now at a critical juncture, with a lot of major construction yet to commence. It is important that as we approach the ten year anniversary of the agency, the vision set out at the beginning continues to be realised. It would be a key goal for me as chairperson to ensure this vision is progressed significantly over the next three years.

I join the Chairman in welcoming Mr. Cussen to this meeting. I take this opportunity to wish him well in his new role and to thank him for his overview of where the project currently stands.

Perhaps Mr. Cussen would outline if a timeframe has been set for his tenure as chairman of the agency and, if not, his desired tenure in that regard? On the work remaining to be done, which is very substantial, in Mr. Cussen's view how many years will it take for the educational part of the project, in terms of the relocation of the DIT and students on to the new campus, to be completed? He might also outline the position in regard to the health and community aspects of the project and say whether in his view there has been sufficient commitment in relation to the budget that will be required in terms of delivery of the project?

I again wish Mr. Cussen well in his work on what is a very exciting project, which is radical in terms of the amalgamation of the DIT colleges and the delivery of a hub in the area concerned.

I reiterate Deputy McConalogue's remarks and wish Mr. Cussen well in his appointment. My only question for Mr. Cussen is in regard to one of the upcoming projects, namely, the primary school. I understand an Educate Together primary school has been earmarked for the site, which initially was to be a 16 classroom school but has now been increased to a 24 classroom school. There is considerable discomfort among some parents in regard to how this will impact on other schools in the area. According to some of the parents to whom I spoke about this issue this morning, there was very little consultation with them on this increase in the size of the school. Given Mr. Cussen's reference in his opening remarks to the local community being one of the key stakeholders, on what basis was that decision made?

I welcome Mr. Cussen. This is probably one of the most exciting educational projects of our time. Its potential is still hidden. The work of the old institutions that sat on the site, rather than being cast aside, is being built on to develop programmes of work to address the challenges of this century. The old vocational education committee structure founded in the 19th century was very innovative in terms of address of the challenges of the industrial revolution and the educational responses to it in terms of training people and bringing them to new realms of skills. As I said, this is the most exciting project to come on stream in a very long time. I wish it every success.

I welcome the opportunity provided by this meeting to discuss the liaisons between the old and the new, old skills, new skills and so on. It breaks down all the old barriers of class and academic versus technological expertise. It is a significant project which must be supported. We must do all we can in terms of funding and so on to ensure it is a success.

I welcome Mr. Cussen. As outlined by him this project is without doubt one of the most exciting this country will see for many years to come. I hope Mr. Cussen will forgive my impertinence but we are in public session and I believe the public has a right to know a little more about Mr. Cussen the man.

I am aware of Mr. Cussen's former position in the Department of Education and Skills. I know also about his involvement in the Dublin Airport Authority project, which was a major construction project. I note Mr. Cussen's reference to his membership of boards both in Ireland and overseas. This project is unique in so far as it brings together a number of different Departments within the government structure, namely, the Departments of Education and Skills, Health and Justice and Equality and the community, which is exciting. However, as Mr. Cussen will be aware, Departments do not often get on well together. As chairman of the agency, Mr. Cussen will have to deal with many barriers in that regard and find ways to work around them. As I said, I think the public has a right to know a little more about Mr. Cussen the man. I would appreciate if Mr. Cussen would address those issues.

I am interested in hearing Mr. Cussen's response to Deputy O'Brien's question. I do not know anything about the local issues surrounding this project but I am familiar with similar tensions in my own community in the context of schools competing with each other. Often the schools that lose out are the ones that do the most for the disadvantaged. I do not know if that is the case in this situation.

The Oireachtas Library service produced a paper on schools, in which it examined an issue previously examined by this committee, namely, school choice and segregation. The document produced by the Library service referenced an ESRI study of 2012 which found that the people who are most likely to exercise choice are people who are in the professional classes and middle class and that they are more likely to choose multi-denominational schools. Another aspect of the study was that immigrants are more likely to choose multi-denominationl schools, except when controlled for class and socioeconomic background.

I was employed initially by the vocational education committee, and was deployed to the DIT but when the DIT became a distinct body separate from the VEC, I was no longer linked to the VEC.

The DIT always had a strong relationship with the State education sector and the vocational education committees, now the education and training boards. I was surprised in the case in question that it would be an Educate Together school. We have great Educate Together schools in my constituency. I think the agency needs to be aware that what matters to people locally is those enrolling in the school. Are the most disadvantaged people from the local community enrolling in the school? How does the socioeconomic background of pupils compare with those of other schools in the area? One does not want to end up competing unfairly with other schools. I know this is not exactly Mr. Cussen's area but as part of the whole overall project, Deputy O'Brien has raised an important issue.

I know the three Educate Together schools that opened this year are under the patronage of different bodies. One is under an education and training board, another is under the Association of Community and Comprehensive Schools, ACCS and the third is under the Joint Managerial Body, JMB. I do not think Educate Together can be patron per se of a given school.

Educate Together can be patrons in its own right, but it is starting to work in partnership with other agencies.

Mr. Oliver Cussen

I will try to deal with all the points briefly, and if members think I have dealt with an issue too briefly, including the important question of who I am, they should come back in. I will deal with the issues in the sequence in which they were raised and will come back to that important point made at the end.

Deputy McConalogue asked about the term of my tenure. As I understand it the tenure, subject to the outcome of today's proceedings, is three years.

On the question of how long it will take to complete the project, there are some issues, including a significant legal case which is before the courts on the construction of the two quads I mentioned. Subject to that being built within a reasonable period, it is planned to have 10,000 students on the campus in 2018. The figure of 10,000 is about half the DIT student population, including full-time and part-time students. By 2020, the business and other schools could be in place, but Bolton Street and other issues will arise. Bolton Street is quite close to the site, there may be issues on how it will be dealt with and it may be possible to integrate it into the development. I am speculating out loud but I do not have the detailed knowledge. One would hope that in the early 2020s that most of DIT would be located on that campus.

I am not aware of a problem with funding but Deputy McConalogue might well say to me that I will quickly become aware of one in the sense that funding is always an issue. In this case, however, which everybody has mentioned is an exciting project, DIT has great potential to use public private partnerships and other mechanisms to fund the buildings without compromising in any way the integrity of the project. For example, planning permission was granted for the two quads in July 2015, which are public private partnerships and will go ahead as there is no upfront capital outlay by DIT and the rent over a number of years will pay for it. Likewise in the strategic development zone there is a plan to provide 2,100 beds in student accommodation, which also can be structured financially in a way which minimises the capital call on the State because of the ability to draw in revenue. This is not unfair or improper revenue but is revenue generated from what students pay for accommodation. I hope that for a relatively modest level of capital in total a significant return can be generated because of the ability to fund the project in different ways from public private partnerships or direct revenue from students and so on.

Deputy O'Brien raised the question of the primary school, which I know is a significant issue for the local community, particularly the proposal to go from 16 to 24 classrooms. I note the points raised by the Chairman about choice, the impact on other schools and the social background of people who choose to go to one kind of school as opposed to another. As I understand it, the school is on the Grangegorman site. It has been assessed by the Department of Education and Skills and the preferred option in terms of the overall facilities and services that can be provided is for a 24-classrooms school. I am very conscious, even from my brief period in the area, that there is very significant concern locally about the impact, especially on the other local schools and how it might affect the existing pattern of schooling in the area, as mentioned by the Chairman and Deputy O'Brien. The proposed change in size from 16 classrooms to 24 classroom must go through the planning process. I think as part of that process there will be further consultation with the local community and further investigation of the types of issues raised by members and what the actual impact will be.

What is the rationale behind increasing the size of the school by eight classrooms?

Mr. Oliver Cussen

As I understand it, the rationale is partly demographic, both existing and projected demographics.

I did not notice that Deputy Catherine Byrne had indicated. I will bring the Deputy in after Mr. Cussen has finished.

Mr. Oliver Cussen

I would not have discussed the demographics in detail with the Department of Education and Skills, but when I was in that Department, clearly demographics were important, not just current demographics but the projected growth of the population over time. I am afraid that I cannot say much more at this time as I am not sufficiently familiar with it. What I know, and the Deputy is quite right to point out the need for consultation, is that it clearly requires more consultation and more explanation of how the project will work and why it is going a particular way in the context of the planning application.

I agree with Deputy Conaghan's views. To respond to Senator Craughwell, I will outline my background. I was in the then Department of Education and Science from 1990 to 1998 as an assistant secretary in charge of higher education, further education, the institutes of technology, which are part of higher education, the European Structural Fund, the European Regional Development Fund, the European Social Fund and the EU Presidency. I was also involved in two major White Papers, in 1992 when the then Minister was the late Seamus Brennan and a subsequent White Paper when Ms Niamh Bhreathnach was Minister. At that time I gained a great deal of understanding about the DIT and its deep links with Dublin city in particular. One of the jobs I had at that time, with the Minister, was to bring in the Dublin Institute of Technology Act 1992 which set out the objective of bringing the DIT colleges into one entity.

There was going to be a major problem because the institutions being brought together were different even though they nominally go under one name. What I did get from that was a deep understanding of how DIT existed in Dublin city. Without any disrespect to the universities and others, it was very anchored in the city. In particular, the apprenticeship programme had a huge impact over many years. It was one of those very pleasant occasions when men and women returned from the championships with many gold medals. They were really performing at the upper end. There was a particular anchoring there. It is a particular strength of DIT. I have always had the view that there has probably been too much desire for all educational institutions to become universities. I know there is a process in place with DIT and other institutes of technology which moved in that direction. It must go through a process, and it is excellent. However, the anchoring of an institution - the Deputy mentioned the Industrial Revolution and other things - is a very important feature of DIT as I understood it at the time. It involves bringing the institutions together in one location and maintaining that kind of environment, particularly when it is anchored in one place and interacts with the local city community in a modern context. It is very important not to lose that. I can return to this issue if the Deputy has any other questions.

Will I deal with Senator Craughwell's issue about who I am and what-----

Mr. Cussen has given us a lot of information and has answered a lot of questions about his experience.

Mr. Oliver Cussen

I understand.

Was there anything else?

I think Mr. Cussen dealt with it very well. He mentioned the legal issue that he cannot discuss. As we bring these various groupings together, there is always a tendency to rush towards the High Court to resolve problems. I assume that as chairperson, one of Mr. Cussen's critical roles will be to try to get the various interest groups and agencies to work together. I was looking for experience in that area.

Mr. Oliver Cussen

I would be happy to try to deal with that. I recognise the absolute importance of working together with a consensus approach. That would be my personal preference. I would balance that with the belief that at certain times you just have to get ahead and get things done, but that is not about steamrolling over people; it is about explaining to people in the structures that are there. You go through a decent process and genuinely listen to what they have to say. Eventually, you may have to say that we cannot deal with everything but on this occasion we dealt with the following, and move on. There will be future issues whereby other things might happen. It is like political work. You win some, you lose some.

The reason I mentioned the Green Paper and the White Paper was because of a critical aspect in which I was very closely involved, along with other officials from the Department, and the issue on which responsibility fell to me to lead the process was a thing that none of the members probably remember. This was the national education convention, which was held in Dublin Castle as long ago as 1993. Every time I mention it, I know how old I am getting. It lasted for a week and was not a major new thing on the landscape. The purpose was a firm wish of mine to bring teachers, parents, the managerial bodies and everybody involved in education together to sit around a table like this. One would say it was a trite observation that relates to the importance of these consultative bodies, but it is amazing how people say different things when they must say them in front of partners. They are not being dishonest, but if a teacher says something about parents, he or she must balance it better. It is not that it is wrong, but when I was in the Department of Education, I would sometimes say to myself "Sure they just come in here and give out about someone else, then they go and we have the problems. Why don't you give out to the people directly, more or less?" It did lead to some real progress. I am not for a moment saying that people do not retain their entrenched positions as a result of this, but one of my strong feelings is that there needs to be more consultation.

I am also on the board of Crosscare, a Dublin diocesan charity that works in large areas of the inner city in Dublin. The main people who do the work are those on the ground. It does give you a sense of the key issues that are facing people. I was chairperson of a secondary school for three years. God knows, there was a lot of consensus building in that. I thought it was probably the toughest job ever. There was no chance of getting anyone to agree on anything.

Is Mr. Cussen a League of Ireland fan?

Mr. Oliver Cussen

I follow the League of Ireland but not to the extent that I should. A very good friend of mine, who is involved in St. Patrick's Athletic football club, insists on my going there every now and again, but I am afraid I am more on the GAA side.

I welcome Mr. Cussen and congratulate him on his appointment. It is a flagship project. I first heard about it when I was on Dublin City Council. I remember Mr. John Fitzgerald being appointed as chairman of the Grangegorman Development Agency. It is a brilliant location because it ticks all the boxes relating to education, health and community. Deputy Conaghan and I have sat on many regeneration boards, some of which did not work out. The most important thing for any regeneration is information and compromise, because if you cannot combine these you will never get anything done. A willingness to bring communities on board and to work with the people who live in the area is a major factor in the regeneration of any site, be it large or small.

Mr. Cussen spoke about student accommodation in his opening remarks. I live beside Inchicore College of Further Education. Deputy Conaghan taught there for many years. I know the difficulty a lot of students have in trying to find accommodation when they come up from the country, so I am glad to hear about the student accommodation. Mr. Cussen mentioned a figure of about 10,000, which is a lot of students. If I heard him correctly, he spoke about 2,500 students being located on the site. This is one of the main pressure points of any education system, particularly on a site where so many students have to be put together. Perhaps something else should be added, looking at the population and the number of young people going back to education. Accommodation is a major factor in any regeneration.

I have listened to what has been said. For me, regeneration is about the people who live around the site as well. I am glad to hear that people from the community are already involved in the construction and I hope this continues into the future. With any new site - I am talking about the development of the national children's hospital, where I live - there are expectations around development. It brings a new excitement to young people about being able to get involved in health and helps them to look at other avenues they may never have thought about previously. When I look at the area I represent in the north inner city, it is similar. There are many people who may not have had the education they needed to advance into work and education. All of that seems to be changing. This must be part and parcel of a new development.

I will finish off with the topic of new schools versus old schools versus DEIS schools. It is something I have spoken about numerous times here and locally. Parents have a choice to send their children where they wish. In the changing society in which we live, where not everybody is channelled through religious schools, there is a huge need for Educate Together schools across every community. The question of whether this should take away from the local DEIS schools or primary schools is another issue. I have been criticised for saying this, but I would not be a politician if I were not criticised.

My children went to a school with nearly 700 students but that school now has 243 children in it. That is not because the teachers or the school building has changed but because it was designated as a DEIS school. I say that with my hand on heart. It segregates children. Schools will then only take pupils from a certain area, which ruins education for an entire community. In my time, when my children went to the local school, children came from all across the parish but now in the DEIS schools in my area, children are segregated from where they come from. That is the biggest problem about a DEIS school. I know it may not relate to what Deputy Jonathan O'Brien has said but we must be very sensitive in building new schools, whether they are Educate Together facilities or whatever. We must be sensitive as we must consider the population mix in trying to help.

I have always said this and I will keep saying it. Children play together on the street but they are not educated together, which is a very sad reflection on how DEIS schools reflect on communities, especially where I live. I know I have gone a bit off the business but it is nice to meet Mr. Cussen. I thank him for coming before the committee.

I thank Mr. Cussen for his earlier reply on the three-year term. Will he comment on whether that should be longer or if it is an appropriate amount of time? This is the second time we have had a session to appoint a chairperson to the agency in this Dáil term. It strikes me that three years could be quite short in a project like this where continuity in a process involving different partners and the role of the chairman in pulling it together and driving it forward is important.

There is a wider issue. This is a tremendous project and it is very exciting. On 21 October 2015, Marty McFly and Doc Brown went back to the future in the film of the same name. I wonder what third level education will look like 20 or 25 years from now, particularly with regard to infrastructure and the campus on which we will place 20,000 people. That is very much needed today but how will it look in 20 or 25 years? Will that big campus model be the same? The witness may not be able to answer but it is interesting.

I will be brief. I was attending another meeting but I heard most of the contributions, including that of Mr. Cussen, on the monitor. Like others, I welcome him and wish him well in what is to be a very exciting project. Others have referred to the amalgamation of a number of institutes of technology and I represent a community that is very fortunate to have the Institute of Technology, Tallaght, on its doorstep. It is held in very high regard within the community because it has transformed educational opportunities in an area which is almost exclusively working class. I listened to Deputy Catherine Byrne speak about discrimination in education but all of us in the room know that if we were to base the percentage of those who participate in third level education in this country on those from working-class communities alone, the percentage would collapse. In the Institute of Technology Tallaght for example, one in every five students is local but before it opened, the number of children from working-class families attending third level education would have been in single digits. It has done wonderful work and there is a great staff, which accounts for the progress that it has made. The institute of technology in our community brings a sense of pride, as it has changed the opportunities available. People are loyal to it.

It is one of the colleges, along with Blanchardstown, that will be part of the project under Mr. Cussen's domain. Within the college and outside it - I include myself in that sphere - there is concern about the identity of our institute being eroded. There is a strong feeling in that regard. That is understandable and it is the nature of human beings that any sort of change tends to lead to instinctive concern - I do not want to say "fright" - and we can see that in political life. The concern about retaining identity and the name is both within and outside the college. There is also concern about those who work in the college and any threat to their employment. I understand that is not an issue but it has been raised by a number of people within the college.

I represent the neighbouring constituency to Deputy Maloney and I have similar issues regarding the technological university. That may not be within the witness's remit although there is probably an overlap. It would great to hear anything he has to say about that issue and the other questions.

Mr. Oliver Cussen

Deputy McConalogue asked about the length of term and my sense now, subject to those legal cases, is that much can be achieved in three years. There is a good programme of work and if we can get that much done in three years, we would do a good job. Certainly the work will not be done in three years - far from it if there will be 10,000 students - but without sounding too precious, I view jobs like this as a stewardship and as a personal issue. One is given responsibility for a period, which in this case is three years, and we look to do the best we can with it. I mean this in the sense of progressing the project as much as possible and laying a solid foundation for the future for whoever is following.

I will come back to the question about "Back to the Future" because I really do not know the answer. With regard to Deputy Byrne's question, student accommodation on the site is a very important aspect and there has already been a very significant study done by a consultancy firm working with Grangegorman to examine the impact of students, the way they will integrate and benefit the area and potential problems that sometimes are not as welcome with students. Suffice it to say, there is much advance planning already going into the social and other impact of students, mainly positive but also with some of the negatives. The initial plan is there will be 650 students on site by approximately 2018 and after that subsequent blocks will be built, bringing the number to approximately 2,000. It would not come all at once and there would be a process of adjustment.

Employment opportunities are very important and it is vital to take the chance to get local people employed. The single biggest problem very often is getting a job, getting started and gaining experience. The process can go well after that once experience is gained, and this could be significant for a local area. Deputy Byrne commented on DEIS and other newer schools, referring to educational opportunities. I agree completely with the Deputy and without making any comment on the specifics of DEIS schools versus other schools, it is very bad for children's development if they get a sense that they are being stigmatised. This might be in them thinking in some ways that they are in a place that is not as good as where somebody else is. Very often children can rebel and not bother with the system because the idea is it is for so-called toffee-nosed fellows or girls somewhere else. That is a perception and I do not mean pupils are toffee-nosed in any school. I am very interested in the work being done by the labour and learning forum.

A huge educational institution is being established there now and we need to try to maximise the potential to get children and adults from that neighbourhood to take a different view of education. Not only should they be encouraged to take a different view but they should be given options and opportunities to avail of the benefits of it. In that way, we could build up confidence in the institution. If people remain outside of it, we will never build up confidence. We must get them involved in it. Some achievement leads to more achievement. It is critical that people get their foot on the rung of the ladder so that they can then make more progress, rather than continually feel they are excluded.

Deputy Maloney raised important points about the IT in Tallaght. That is outside of my remit. I am not in the Department of Education and Skills or involved in the process of bringing DIT and IT Tallaght and Blanchardstown together. I sympathise with the point made. When I was in the Department, creating the institutes of technology in their current form - I was involved with the VECs before that over many years - I fully understood the importance of local participation and identification with an institution. The fact it is on their doorstep leads people who would not have thought of doing so previously to attend the institution.

Deputy Byrne made the point that it is a long way to Belfield from the north side of the city. I go to England frequently, but I have a brother who, much to my shock, has never been outside of Limerick, even outside of his own small area in Limerick. It is amazing how we take it for granted people move around. One of my colleagues from Grangegorman said to me there are people who see moving across the river as a major issue, because they live very much within their community. More power to them, there is nothing wrong with that. The point about the importance of the locality therefore is significant in terms of local identification. This is balanced against the need to create higher education institutions that meet all the international standards and benefit students in that way. The institutions need to be a bit larger in the context of research and teaching quality and all of that. Hopefully, the amalgamation process will find a way to blend both so that we get local involvement and identification along with the benefits of a larger, central structure.

The Chairman made a point about workers. My previous involvement in that regard relates to when people were moving from VECs to ITs and the significant negotiation on that move. I do not think any jobs were lost and ultimately we achieved a successful, negotiated outcome to the changing conditions, moving from one employer to another, that is, moving from a VEC employer to a board of an institution of technology.

On the trade union issue, I do not believe it falls within Mr. Cussen's remit, but I understand the position of my colleagues. The only fear of the technological university staff is that Grangegorman will become the centre for levels 7, 8 and 9 and they will be relegated to dealing with lower levels. However, I doubt Mr. Cussen's office can do much about that.

Mr. Oliver Cussen

Unfortunately that issue is outside of the remit of the Grangegorman agency and is a policy issue for the Department. While I appreciate the point being made, it would be futile for me to comment on it further. However, I appreciate and understand the point being made. Certainly, the VECs would have made a similar point in the early 1990s, that they were losing the sense of locality to colleges which were somewhat more aggregated.

We must conclude because we have a second issue on our agenda. This has been a good discussion, probably one of the most thorough we have had with a chairperson designate. This shows the interest of members in the development of the Grangegorman campus. I thank Mr. Cussen and feel sure we will have further engagement with him at some stage.

Mr. Oliver Cussen

Thank you Chairperson. If members wish to visit Grangegorman, either individually or collectively, we would be delighted to facilitate that.

That would be great as we would definitely be interested in that. We visited about two years ago, so it would be great to see it now.

Sitting suspended at 2.16 p.m. and resumed at 2.18 p.m.
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