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Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science debate -
Tuesday, 11 May 2021

School Bullying and the Impact on Mental Health: Discussion (Resumed)

On behalf of the committee, I welcome the following: Mr. Mark O'Connor, community engagement manager, Inclusion Ireland; Ms Saoirse Brady, head of legal, policy and public affairs, Children's Rights Alliance; Ms Suzanne Connolly, CEO, Barnardos; Mr. Philip Arneill, head of education and innovation, CyberSafeKids; and Mr. Ben Holmes, Youth Advisory Panel Members, and Ms Jane McGarrigle, project officer, Webwise.

The witnesses are here today to brief the committee on school bullying and the impact on mental health, and we have done continual work on this issue for the last number of weeks. The format of the meeting is as follows. I will invite Mr. O'Connor, Ms Brady, Ms Connolly, Mr. Arneill and, finally, Mr. Holmes to contribute. I have agreed to allow Mr. Holmes slightly over three minutes given the very important contribution he has to make on behalf of the youth advisory panel members of Webwise, and the young people affected by school bullying. The statements will be followed by questions from members of the committee, each of whom will have a six-minute slot for questions and then witnesses will respond. Given the limited time available and high attendance by members, I urge members and witnesses to stay within six minutes.

As witnesses are probably aware, the committee will publish the opening statements on its website following the meeting. Before we begin, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses of the Oireachtas or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. As the witnesses are giving evidence remotely from a place outside the parliamentary precincts, and, as such, may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness physically present does, they have already been advised that they may think it appropriate to take legal advice on the matter. They are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make them identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by me to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I invite Mr. Mark O'Connor to make his opening statement for three minutes and I will call the other witnesses individually afterwards.

Mr. Mark O'Connor

Inclusion Ireland welcomes the opportunity to discuss this very important bullying in schools issue as it continues to be an important one that arises in our advocacy work. According to research, children with additional needs are two to three times more likely than their peers to experience bullying. The UN also points out that "children with disabilities are six times as likely as other children to experience violence and abuse". This is especially true for children with psychosocial or intellectual disabilities.

The bullying experienced by children in schools must be seen through the prism of general attitudes towards people with disabilities in Ireland, the absence of inclusive educational systems and the importance of children's mental health supports. One important aspect to consider on bullying is attitudes towards people with disabilities in Irish society. For example, the National Disability Authority has reported that 28% of the public agree that children with autism or an intellectual disability should not attend the same school as their non-disabled peers. Addressing the negative attitudes towards children with disabilities must form part of the response to tackling bullying of children with additional needs. Northern Irish research illustrates that children with additional needs felt that they were bullied because they were different, and that the bullying was related to their disability. Inclusive education and societies are important factors in addressing bullying as research shows isolation from peers is a risk factor for children with additional needs to be bullied.

The NDA has proposed five guiding principles to underpin a framework for schools to ensure that their school becomes a place where staff and children are happy and safe from bullying. These are: A rights-based approach to protect children from bullying to govern and underpin principles and practices; systemic interventions; inclusive processes; education and training for both pupils and staff; and leadership training and communication. This framework shares many common principles with inclusive education.

Children's mental health services are a key part in supporting children with disabilities who have been bullied. It is worth noting that between 35% and 40% of children and adolescents with intellectual disabilities have mental health difficulties during their life, which is five times greater than the general population. At the same time, the child and adolescent mental health services or CAMHS intellectual disability service is virtually non-existent.

To conclude, the following actions can be undertaken to address bullying and support children with additional needs who have been bullied. They are: The Government must engage in a public awareness campaign on reducing the stigma around disability in general; the Government must invest in inclusive education as it would result in better short and longer term social outcomes for children with additional needs such as in maintaining positive peer relationships, and better social development into their later years; continue the improvement of therapeutic supports by providing speech and language, and occupational therapy, within educational settings where required; and the Government must invest in the child and adolescent mental health services, especially CAMHS intellectual disability services.

Ms Saoirse Brady

I thank the Chair for the opportunity to address the committee on the impact that school bullying has on mental health.

As many members will know, the alliance unites more than 120 organisations working together to make Ireland one of the best places in the world to be a child. However, bullying has been identified as one of the worst things about being a child in Ireland. Although children and young people here are less likely to experience it than some of their peers in other countries, almost 8% of those aged between 11 and 15 still encounter chronic bullying.

The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child recognises the right of all children to be protected from abuse and neglect, and that includes psychological and physical bullying. Ireland's approach to tackling bullying has been multifaceted, addressing different national policies and legislative provisions across the education sector, child protection policies and youth strategies.

The 2013 national action plan on bullying in schools contains 12 actions that focus on supports for schools, teacher training and research, awareness raising, and aims to ensure that all forms of bullying are addressed. We welcome the comprehensive definition of bullying in the related anti-bullying procedures for primary and post-primary schools. That also includes cyberbullying and identity-based bullying, such as racism and homophobia. However, we feel schools are missing an important opportunity to gather data and monitor incidents of identity-based bullying. While these procedures acknowledge the need for a programme of supports to be put in place, in their absence, responsibility for dealing with mental health issues often falls on teachers, who are rarely appropriately skilled to deal with serious psychological issues. There is a clear need to identify the types of resources required for an adequate in-school model of mental health support for those who have experienced bullying or, where necessary, to identify appropriate out-of-school supports, where staff can refer victims of bullying.

Children make up a third of global online users. While the Internet brings unparalleled opportunity for children to learn, connect and socialise, it also brings unparalleled risk. During the Covid-19 lockdown, 28% of children and young people reported that they had been a victim of cyberbullying, with younger children more likely to have been a victim. The current opportunity to establish an online safety commissioner could help to ensure that children are safer online, and could ensure that children, young people, parents and teachers are educated on how to address cyberbullying and online harassment.

While any child may be subject to bullying, certain groups of children and young people may be more susceptible or may be targeted because of their own, or their parents', identity or status. However, there is a lack of data on the impact of bullying on certain cohorts of children, and this includes children in alternative care, children who are members of an ethnic minority, and children impacted by parental imprisonment, to name a few.

In our submission to the committee, we highlighted data on particular groups more at risk of bullying. For example, the marginalisation of members of the Traveller and Roma culture within the Irish education system adversely affects young people's sense of belonging and place. Traveller children are more likely to have higher rates of mental health issues than the general population. For Roma children, insufficient English language and literacy support can compound experiences of bullying and marginalisation at school. We are calling on the Government, therefore, to develop and publish a national Traveller and Roma educational strategy as a matter of priority.

Finally, while the Department of Education supports initiatives to address homophobic and transphobic bullying in schools, BelonGTo has highlighted that LGBTI+ bullying is rife throughout second level schools in Ireland. This can have a devastating impact on teenagers' mental health, increasing the likelihood of reporting stress, depression, anxiety, self harm and attempted suicide. Although it was promised in the last programme for Government, but was never done, the Department of Education should conduct a review of the national action plan on bullying and consider other forms of bullying and harassment in relation to gender, race, religion, or grounds, and put in place appropriate actions to tackle these. I thank members for their attention.

Thank you very much, Ms Brady. I call Ms Connolly.

Ms Suzanne Connolly

I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak with it today. Barnardos provides a range of services to children and families in our 40 community-based centres, in family homes and in schools. In 2020 these services were delivered to nearly 18,000 vulnerable children and parents. Our key message today is that early intervention and prevention is vital to reducing the impact of bullying on mental health. To meet this objective, Barnardos delivers the following programmes in schools and communities. The roots of empathy programme is an evidence-based programme focused on social and emotional learning. A parent and a baby visit the classroom every three weeks over a nine-month period. Children learn about child development and, indeed, their own development through observing a baby growing and the relationship the baby develops with its parents. They learn to understand the range of emotions that a baby experiences and, in this way, can connect that to their own emotional world. Through observing the relationship between the parent and child, children can see a real-life example of a nurturing relationship. This programme been proven to reduce levels of aggression of children in primary school and, therefore, of bullying.

Friendship group is an evidence-based group work programme that helps children develop skills to form healthy relationships with their peer groups. It teaches children how to negotiate, express and explore different views and feelings, how to win and lose gracefully and how to work as a team. The programme reduces bullying because it helps children to relate to each other with respect and understanding.

Our online safety programme is run across primary and secondary schools and aims to promote safe online use and to build capacity for critical thinking, as well as healthy behaviours when interacting online. Through the friendship group and online safety programme, children learn that they do not have to like everyone, and they do not have to be friends with everyone, but they have to treat everyone with respect. Bullying, without the appropriate supports, can have devastating short and long-term effects. When a child is bullied to the extent that their mental health is impacted, it does not solely affect the child concerned, but also the family and the broader community. The impact of bullying on mental health is not restricted to bullying within school grounds. Therefore, a holistic approach to tackling the issue must be taken outside of the school context, with consideration given to family and community supports. Key to reducing the long-term impact of bullying is early intervention and prevention. Evidence-based programmes, such as the roots of empathy, increases a child’s empathy and awareness of others, while friendship groups can support a child’s well-being and build the confidence required to negotiate peer relationships. Targeted and resourced family support within communities also helps children to grow and learn in a home environment that enables them to manage and negotiate school conflicts.

Finally, the introduction of a comprehensive digital literacy and online safety programme must be progressed to ensure children build the capacity to think critically about their behaviours online. We cannot underestimate the importance of a holistic approach across schools, communities and homes when putting in place early intervention and prevention measures to mitigate the devastating impact bullying can have on children and young people’s mental health. I thank the committee.

Thank you very much. The next speaker is Mr Arneill.

Mr. Philip Arneill

Good afternoon.

I will speak on behalf of CyberSafeKids, an online safety charity for children and parents. As an organisation, we recognise the Internet is a powerful and educational resource. This has never been more apparent than over the last year during periods of strict lockdown. The Internet also brings with it risks, particularly for children. My opening statement will focus specifically on cyberbullying.

Cyberbullying overlaps in many ways with traditional bullying, in that there is clear intention to cause harm, it is deliberately targeted and there is an imbalance of power. One common definition of cyberbullying is "an aggressive act or behaviour that is carried out using electronic devices repeatedly against a victim who cannot easily defend him or herself."

Several key differences between cyberbullying and the more traditional forms of bullying are, first, cyberbullying takes place through the Internet and online platforms such as popular social media apps and as such it can be perpetuated 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Second, victims of cyberbullying are not necessarily exempt simply because they remove themselves from the online space. There is nothing to prevent the perpetrators continuing to create and post content online about their victims, regardless of whether that person is seeing it directly. Third, cyberbullying creates a permanent record of this behaviour through posts, comments, photos and videos left online. Even if this content is deleted from specific devices, the nature of the Internet is such that it is likely the content exists somewhere else, or has been screenshot, saved or downloaded by other users. Fourth, the online nature of cyberbullying easily facilitates anonymity for its perpetrators, who are not required to directly witness the reaction or impact the behaviour has on their victim, and is facilitated by the increasing amount of time children and young people are spending online.

Cyberbullying comes in myriad forms, the most common of which include posting nasty, hurtful comments and messages, excluding people from groups, threatening to share information about someone online and sending or posting non-consensual images of someone, among other forms. Cyberbullying can even be inclusion as well, such as the case of Charlotte in sixth class. She was excited to be invited to join a WhatsApp group of her peers, only to discover that the group was called "I Hate Charlotte" and had been created specifically to criticise and make fun of her. CyberSafeKids believes we must continue to address the issue of cyberbullying at the highest level, as this problem will only continue to evolve with the online world.

Research indicates that cyberbullying has life-changing, and even tragic consequences for children and young people, poses real and self-evident concerns and issues for parents and carers, and also creates significant challenges for teachers. According to our findings, 59% of teachers are increasingly dealing with incidents which, despite beginning outside school, have inevitable fallout that continues to reverberate within their classrooms.

Defining cyberbullying, identifying the symptoms early, teaching young people to stand up rather than stand by and modelling inclusive and tolerant environments within schools are all key approaches in tackling the increasingly pervasive problem of cyberbullying in schools.

I thank Mr. Arneill and I invite Mr. Holmes to make his opening statement.

Mr. Ben Holmes

Good afternoon. I thank the chairperson and members of the committee for inviting me to contribute to this meeting today and for listening to me. My name is Ben Holmes. I am a sixth year student in FCJ Bunclody in Wexford and I have been a member of the Webwise Youth Advisory Panel for the past three years. Throughout my time on the panel, I have had the opportunity to mentor Safer Internet Day ambassadors from schools across Ireland, contributed to national and international organisations and, recently, I did an interview with a fellow panellist on "Ireland AM". Webwise, through connections with organisations and the Government and informing students, teachers and parents, aims to promote safer use of the Internet and, in conjunction, mental well-being for young people.

As a young person, I hope I can help to provide insight into the stress and anxiety students face, the affects of bullying and cyberbullying and what the Government could do to combat it. I know first-hand that bullying and mental health is one of the biggest social topics on people’s minds today when it comes to schools and young people. My generation has grown up in a very different world and environment from the one that existed when many of the people attending this meeting were in school. It is apparent that much of the infrastructure to deal with these issues needs to be consistently updated to connect with students in an engaging way.

From my personal experience, I know that many of programmes given by teachers and the Garda vary in quality and effectiveness and that, generally, regulations around bullying and dealing with mental health in schools differ quite a bit. It is unclear exactly what kind of anti-bullying systems schools should have and what situations schools have the ability to deal with, whether within the school, outside of it or even online, when it comes to cyberbullying. These decisions are often left to senior management and the principal and this causes some schools to do nothing while others are overbearing or invasive.

As a young person, I have been lectured on bullying and mental health many times during my time in secondary school, but only a handful of these talks have either informed or enlightened me. Programmes such as those delivered by the Garda often only cover the legal implications when it comes to illicit image sharing and violence, and much of the information provided by schools and by the Government omits the mental and social aspect of these situations. While it is essential to explain the legal and logistical side of bullying, cyberbullying and online safety, this is not conducive an environment that destigmatises and comprehensively addresses topics that are ultimately the main cause of stress, anxiety and depression for young people.

As a Cycle Against Suicide ambassador I understand the need to handle these topics and situations in not only a careful and mindful way, but also with a humanising and empathic approach. From the Webwise Youth Advisory Panel and the many other youth activism programmes I have been involved in, I understand the importance of peer-to-peer learning and seeing the full picture from professionals, other young people, organisations and law enforcement. As a member of the Webwise Youth Advisory Panel, I have acted as a mentor and trained other students to lead online safety and anti-bullying initiatives in their own schools as part of the Webwise Safer Internet Day ambassador programme.

To guarantee the safety and well-being of all students, anti-bullying and student information programmes have to be consistent within each school. Encouraging second level institutions to train teachers and staff to deal with these issues in a thorough way would also help humanise the issues. To help students understand the implications of their words and actions, a system where these situations would be met with mediation rather than just punishment, would allow students to learn to stop bullying and understand their peers rather than learn to not get caught. To educate all parties involved in bullying and mental health in school, a holistic approach where all stakeholders are involved and a wide range of informed views are presented, would be beneficial. I hope what I have said and will say provides the committee with more insight into the issues and will inform it in how it can create more effective and engaging systems that will benefit not only second-level students but also teachers, parents and society as a whole.

I thank Mr. Holmes and the other witnesses for informing the committee of their personal experiences and that of their peers. I have no doubt there will be some interesting contributions and questions from members. The first speaker is Deputy Alan Farrell, followed by Deputy Ó Laoghaire. I ask members to direct their questions to the witness from whom they would like a response.

I thank the witnesses for their attendance this afternoon. I have three questions for all of the witnesses. I would like first to speak about a really important aspect of this conversation. In 2018, the former Joint Committee on Children and Youth Affairs, inclusive of Deputy Ó Laoghaire at one point, created a report on cyber safety as it applied to children and young adults. There are 11 recommendations in that report, which is a modest number of recommendations for an Oireachtas report. In recommendations Nos. 9, 10 and 11 the committee recommended Government advance the establishment of cyber safety programmes in primary and secondary schools; that cyber safety education should be formalised at primary and secondary level and that the training of teachers should include cyber safety education at primary and secondary level. While some of those recommendations have been implemented, others have not, and that informs this discussion.

My questions are short and, again, are for all of the witnesses. Do they believe that our faculty staff, in other words the administration of our schools and the teachers, are sufficiently equipped to intervene and deal with instances of bullying, whether in-person or cyberbullying? My next question is for Mr. Holmes in particular. Does he believe that the buddy system, which is used in many primary schools, particularly at junior and senior infant level, could be rolled out at secondary level to provide the student with somebody that they know, particularly in the first few months, and following on from that somebody to whom they could go and confide in if instances of bullying arose? My teenage years are a long time off, but I remember that sort of system operating in my school. It was beneficial to students, but I am not sure that it is rolled out across the board. I would appreciate a response to those questions, following which, time permitting, I would like to pose one more question.

I invite Mr. Holmes to respond first.

Mr. Ben Holmes

On the buddy system specifically, such programmes are beneficial in primary schools. A similar programme in secondary schools would be very beneficial in first year when students might not feel comfortable going to a teacher, guidance counsellor or adult when issues arise. If a student had the benefit of having the support of another student that he or she knew, that would be beneficial. In terms of the buddy system, it is for much younger children. It is important to not to mash all students together and to put in place blanket policies. I am a sixth year student and I am very different from a first year student and extremely different from a primary school student. If a buddy system without a level of maturity to it was implemented, it might be pushed away by students and seen as ridiculous and so on. It would be useful to implement a programme which would provide students with an opportunity to talk to other students about problems or a time in the school week when students would be able to specifically talk to each other about their relationships with other students in their class and, also, any bullying they might be experiencing. I had reached third year before anyone asked me about my mental health or if I was being bullied and so on. It is important bullying is identified in first year, because that is when it happens most. If it is not identified in first year, and there is no one-on-one between students and teachers at an early stage, bullying could continue all the way to third year and as students mature.

Mr. Philip Arneill

I will respond to the point about the training of teachers. I was a teacher for nearly 20 years. In respect of the primary school teachers with whom we have dealt, we are focusing on children aged eight to 13. Over 30% of teachers reported last year that they dealt with between two and five incidents of cyberbullying. When it comes to the training of teachers, what many teachers find quite challenging is that more often than not, these cyberbullying incidents occur outside the home so there is sometimes a sense of "what's it got to do with me? I am dealing with the kids within the school." From working as a teacher and working with other teachers, I know that anything that happens outside the school, regardless of where the responsibility lies, will automatically impact the dynamics in the class. Similarly, a lot of cyberbullying incidents might originate with dynamics that occur in the school or classroom and then play out on these platforms and websites beyond school. It is really important that within teacher training, there is a very clear system of defining the behaviour and how to deal with it within the school. What are the correct steps to take? Where does one draw that line of responsibility between the school and the home?

When we talk about the difference between bullying and cyberbullying, quite often, when I ask teachers to brainstorm the symptoms, many of the symptoms teachers give are very similar to the symptoms of more traditional bullying. They include behaviour change, becoming withdrawn and friendship groups altering. Very few of them identify behaviour around online use. One of the real red flags for cyberbullying are children being reluctant to go online or becoming angry, aggressive or withdrawn after they have been online. They might have been very interested in the online world or gaming and suddenly they lose interest dramatically. From a teacher training point of view, it is really important that those guidelines are established as to where the responsibility lies and how best to deal with it.

Ms Saoirse Brady

In respect of the report of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Children and Youth Affairs, the Online Safety and Media Regulation Bill is coming before members' colleagues this week and we will appear before the relevant committee on Thursday. One of our asks in respect of this Bill is around the education remit of an online safety commissioner. That is key. If we had that not just for children and young people but for parents and teachers, it would really help.

There is a wider issue about ensuring there is a proper curriculum for children and young people within schools that would also help and support teachers to address some of these key issues around cyberbullying so this is also an opportunity for this committee to look at how that interacts with the online safety commissioner piece. We see it as possibly a quality assured programme where people who are delivering this training within schools would have to be approved by the online safety commissioner. It would be like a blue tick or a quality assurance to ensure that factual information is given.

That is crucially important in terms of the critical skills the younger generation need. I cannot think of a better place to have overarching policy formation than in the digital safety commissioner or whatever form of words is used to describe it. I thank the witnesses for their responses. I am sorry the other witnesses did not get a chance to come in.

There is a lot of focus this afternoon on online safety and cyberbullying, an issue I raised last week. It has never been easy to be a teenager but when I listened to the witnesses, I am very glad I am not a teenager in the 2020s and do not have to navigate all the hazards that exist with social media. I am sure it has many benefits but there are very considerable pitfalls as well.

One of the challenges with cyberbullying is the fact that in many instances, the students will always be more aware of and familiar with the platforms, the culture relating to the platforms, the games and all the rest. This can be a bit intimidating for organisations and responsible people who might not be familiar with them. What are the key principles of how someone deals with an incident or series of incidents? How does someone ensure he or she deals with them even if he or she is not that familiar with the platforms being used because there will always be something new? Things will always change and evolve. How can one ensure that a school or any kind of organisation stays ahead of that? Is there a role for constantly consulting the young people involved to ensure they stay ahead of that?

My next question is for the Children's Rights Alliance. There has been discussion recently about relationships and sexuality education; social, personal and health education; and the variety, to put it kindly, in respect of the curriculum. Speaking more frankly, some of the content being taught in our schools is not appropriate. I imagine the alliance believes the reform of that is vitally important but is the lack of uniform policy a contributor to a culture of "othering" and exclusion in some schools?

Mr. Ben Holmes

I think consistent peer consultation is essential in order for organisations and anyone to stay up to date on cyberbullying and information to do with the online space. Obviously, Webwise has a great peer-to-peer programme, which is why I am here. It is intimidating for teachers. As students, we do not necessarily like acting like we know more than teachers or trying to educate them. This even applies to our parents or any other adults in our lives. I do not think someone needs to be aware of the Internet and these issues to teach students about them.

By the time we reach first year, we will most likely have phones. I see children in primary school getting phones earlier and earlier. I got mine when I entered first year. When they come in, they will probably already have a very comprehensive idea of the online space and things. Where the education needs to happen is around what rights they have online and in school. If I went back to third or fourth year, I would have no idea what I would be able to do if I was being cyberbullied, whether I could take it to my principal or teacher and if they would be able to deal with it because technically, it is outside the school. Sex education needs to be updated because students do not know these things and have to go online. The environment in Ireland is still very stigmatised so I am not going to go to my teachers or parents but I will go online and look for that information. That is where students ultimately end up in many dangerous situations and that is where the threat lies. They feel they need to go online to learn things and connect with people. It is about that fear of missing out and wanting to know stuff. Teachers could provide education to meet this curiosity.

Mr. Philip Arneill

The first thing is that we cannot say we do not understand the technology.

We have to stop making this excuse. We hear many parents say, "Oh, I do not know what they are doing." There are sites like Webwise and Common Sense Media, and lots of other resources where people can figure out very quickly exactly what TikTok does or what people can do or not do on Snapchat. The first thing is to go and do that research, and understand what kids are doing. Parents have to take that interest because it is a big part of their children's life.

Second, we have to stop making this distinction between what we often refer to as the real world and the online world. For children and young people, the online world is part of their real world. By making that distinction, we are sometimes giving licence to certain kinds of behaviour in the online world that we would not accept in the offline world. By breaking down that distinction and really pushing the kind of behaviour we want, generally speaking, from young people and children, and from society as a whole, it is a really powerful way to tackle that. What often happens is that kids are doing things online that they do not necessarily realise are the same as walking up to someone and insulting them to their face, or saying something to them they simply would not have the guts to say in person. The second thing is to break down this distinction and stop somehow othering the online world as if it is some other place where different rules apply.

Third, a big part of this is empathy and understanding how people feel, whether it is online or offline, and developing those skills within our young people. Fourth, within schools in particular, it is about modelling that culture. This comes from the top down. I know from working in schools that we are talking to children about bullying and cyber bullying and, at the same time, the head may be bullying members of staff and not necessarily modelling that behaviour we expect from the kids. Within a culture, within an organisation, we need to understand what the signs of bullying or cyber bullying are, and we then have to make sure that all of us, whether it is from the top down or the bottom up, are modelling that desired behaviour. That will be much more effective. It is too easy to just blame the technology. We have to tackle it at the root of the behaviours that we want from each other and that we expect to see.

Mr. Mark O'Connor

On the issue of othering, one of the biggest segregated groups in the Irish education system is children with additional needs. The attitudinal report that is done regularly by the National Disability Authority shows that only one third of people are comfortable having children with psychosocial disabilities in the same class as their child and more than one quarter of people do not believe they belong in those classes. Those attitudes carry on into the rest of their lives. People are less comfortable living beside disabled people and less comfortable working with them, and those attitudinal pieces really need to be tackled. We know from international research that it is leading to greater levels of bullying of children with disability in schools.

When we go back to the original research from many years ago around groups, it only took the flip of a coin to set groups apart when people all of a sudden felt part of one group to the exclusion of the other group. Children with disabilities, who number in excess of 20,000, are seen as the others within the schools and special school provision. To address that, and this committee has looked at the issue, requires a movement towards a more inclusive education system, and working on those attitudes at the systemic level is something that will help children with additional needs in regard to bullying.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations and I wish we had more time to delve into them. It feels very rushed for topics on which we could spend an awful lot more time. I want to quickly mention some of the recurring themes that I am seeing appear between this week and last week, which are around revisiting the anti-bullying procedures, which clearly needs to be done; the collection of data, and I wish had more time to dig down into that with Ms Brady, in particular regarding the atomised data she would be interested in collecting; and the focus on mediation and restorative justice. I want to mention the roots of empathy programme that was mentioned by Ms Connolly; I have seen it in action and it is superb.

I also want to refer to Mr. O'Connor's point about inclusion. Until we see it in our society, I do not know if we are going to see it in our schools. Until we see people working in the supermarkets with those disabilities, or learn to accept them within our own communities as neighbours or friends, it will not happen. That is where we need to go first.

I want to ask a couple of specific questions. On a question to Ms Brady which was also raised by Deputy Ó Laoghaire with regard to LGBTQI+ students, a phrase that jumped out at me is that bullying is rife throughout Irish second level schools. Perhaps this question is speculative but relationships and sexuality education, RSE, particularly in primary school, does not deal adequately with the idea of same-sex relationships or anything to do with that area. Is it Ms Brady's opinion that if we reform that or if we did RSE better at primary school level, we would see more acceptance of people within that community as we move to secondary school?

Ms Saoirse Brady

It is a very complex issue. Certainly, age-appropriate sex education should be instilled in schools from a very young age. There are programmes that the Council of Europe have developed on how we talk about LGBTI people in general. Obviously, we have come a long way in Ireland but we still have a way to go and things are not solved. We really need to address those issues. Having the NCCA put in place a proper curriculum around this could help inclusion. Talking to Deputy Ó Cathasaigh's point, it is not just about LGBTI for children and young people, and it has to be inclusive across the board. We have to look at how we instill equality in our children and young people from a very young age and, again, there needs to be consistency across schools, which is key. In regard to the RSE piece in particular, what we have seen are people going into schools where the boards of management decide who comes in, and it is not consistent across the board. Therefore, they may not be presenting the most factual or accurate information, and it may not be in line with some of our human rights and equality law, as we know it. We need to address all of that and have a more inclusive education system.

The other piece, to which Deputy Ó Laoghaire alluded, is consulting with children and young people around this and asking how they want to learn about this. They need to have an input into any changes that will be put in place.

Touching on the piece around bullying being rife, that came from BeLonG To. One of the things it noticed is that it is not just about the people who are carrying out the bullying, it is about the bystanders as well and it is about the staff in schools. It acknowledges that some staff in schools do not know how to intervene and feel it is not their place. We need to address all of that if we really want to make our schools more inclusive.

Thank you. I have two questions which I hope Mr. Arneill and Mr. Holmes can answer quickly. There is so much I could ask Mr. Arneill but I have one specific question. Is there a role for the social media platforms? I am looking at the fact that 65% of eight to 12-year-olds have a social media account and I am quite sure many of those social media accounts require children to be over 13.

Mr. Holmes was very diplomatic in how he described some of the education he got in terms of it not being age-appropriate and not really speaking to young guys where they are. I want to simply ask him what is an approach that has worked for him, in his experience.

Mr. Philip Arneill

The Deputy is quoting our statistics at us and that is absolutely right. This is why we are coming from the education side because the reality is that kids are on there. Yes, there are age restrictions in place but, clearly, as we can see from the figure of 65% of kids being on there already, they are not working. We are firmly in favour of stronger regulation. We believe it is simply not working to have social media companies restricting and regulating themselves. That is why we are very much in favour of the online safety commissioner and we would like that office and that commissioner to have the teeth that we believe they should have, including an individual complaints mechanism, which would also address things like cyberbullying. Individuals would be in a position to complain to the commissioner and to have that content removed, rather than trying to take on huge social media giants like Facebook or Twitter and clearly coming up against a brick wall.

Mr. Ben Holmes

I will answer quickly. When educating young people, the main thing is not to treat them as if they are ignorant or unaware of these issues. At this stage, as a sixth year, I know much more about many social topics than, I am sure, some of my teachers. I am referring in particular to topics associated with young people. I am still being lectured on material that I may have learned years ago. It is a question of creating a classroom environment that involves discussion and in which, I hope, teachers could learn from us as well as educating us. There is a lot that we can learn from them and a lot that they can learn from us. It is a discussion, not a lecture; that is the main thing.

I thank Mr. Holmes.

I thank all the contributors for their excellent presentations. This is an important topic. We discussed it last week also. I made several points last week on the change in the nature of bullying. It now follows the victim all around the place because of the advent of social media and smartphones. Often, there can be confusion over the definition of bullying, which involves repeated action over a period, not just a once-off event.

I have a question for anybody who wants to take it on. I was interested in all the presentations made but was wondering whether the Irish education system is particularly ill-equipped to deal with bullying considering that it is based on separating children. We separate children at a much greater rate than most other European countries. We do so on the basis of religion, gender and income. Some 90% of our primary schools are under the patronage of a body that believes women are second-class citizens and that LGBT people are disordered. We do not have a State education system; we have a State-funded education system. Therefore, the reach of the Department goes only so far in respect of asking schools and patron bodies to implement anti-bullying or other policies.

Is there evidence that any particular type of school or age group has a worse bullying problem? Is it a teenage issue? Does it start at infant level? Is the physical element of bullying worse now than five or ten years ago? I am interested in knowing that. I am also interested in coping mechanisms. Given that many of us were bullied as children – I certainly was – how do we ensure that we can instil coping mechanisms in children and young people? How can we ensure parents know what bullying is? A lot of parent-teacher time can be spent discussing what constitutes bullying. Sometimes it is believed that any kind of interaction or confrontation is bullying when often that is not the case. How can we focus on the repeated action, which is quite diminishing and absolutely humiliating for children and young people, and which lasts a lifetime? It is not just a phase. Bullying stays with most people for their entire lives. I would appreciate the comments of anybody who wishes to contribute on that.

Mr. Mark O'Connor

I will address some of the points. The Deputy is right in that if there is one thing we love to do in the Irish education system, it is segregating and boxing pupils into very specific areas. I will deal specifically with the disability front. An unintended consequence of segregation is based on the fact that special schools, by their nature, are not on every street corner or in every locality. Children are bussed out of their locations and are not going to school with their peers. They miss out on all the social activity that happens as a consequence of meeting people in school, including the games of football and birthday parties, even when they are going to the same schools. We heard media stories over the weekend in which parents reported that their children were not invited to certain birthday parties, for example. Another consequence of segregation is that special schools are seen as primary schools. We have spoken about RSE and tackling some of the associated issues. It is at primary school level that 17- and 18-year-olds in special schools are receiving that education. It is wholly age-inappropriate.

To return to a point I was making, in the research carried out north of the Border it was found that children with a disability cited their disability and their being seen as other as the main reasons for being bullied.

Ms Suzanne Connolly

Addressing the overall challenge of bullying in society cannot just be left to schools. We have to give support to families and communities. We must examine the broader system and how we all operate. We all have to learn how to work positively with difference, challenge effectively and non-aggressively, and recognise that children, young people and parents have a range of feelings and emotions. There are ways of dealing with these effectively and of disagreeing effectively in a way that does not dismiss or minimise somebody else's position.

The reason Barnardos is stressing the importance of prevention and early intervention is that we can see children being rejected and neglected by their peers and we can see bullying behaviour in our early-years services. It is a matter of modelling for children at an early age the view that all feelings are okay but that all behaviour is not. They must be shown how to deal with a difference of opinion and how to manage if feeling very aggressive.

We really support programmes such as Roots of Empathy because the approach is so non-invasive. Children recognise that although they may observe a disability or a variety of differences, all human beings are fundamentally the same. We all have a range of emotions and go through good days and bad days. Once one recognises our common humanity, regardless of one's age, one just cannot bully in the same way. People with empathy really recognise that they are a fellow human being. We do children an absolute disservice if we do not recognise that they, as with adults, experience very negative feelings towards other people and that, just as they can be bullied, they can also be bullies. Therefore, we have to recognise the reality that we all have that capacity.

If as teachers, adults, parents or individuals in various roles we can accept that reality, we can then really help and equip children. We can also listen to them. One of the reasons children find it very difficult to go home and talk to their parents is because they are afraid of their parents' reaction. They are terrified. Therefore, we have to give children an opportunity to learn how to negotiate their difficulties. We must give them skills and coach them.

The questions that the Deputy is asking are really interesting and broad. A variety of strategies is required and all of us, no matter what our role, must take responsibility for what we model and how we are with each other. Anyone who looks at the news today will see the world is not an easy place to be in at the moment. Aggression, discrimination and such behaviour are rife. Therefore, if in our world we can negotiate, in the ways we can, how we try to address inequality and victimisation, we can also have really good, honest conversations with children that are appropriate to their development and age of understanding.

I am conscious of my time. Ms Brady wanted to comment.

Ms Saoirse Brady

I just wanted to return to the patronage issue. We are in favour of more multidenominational and non-denominational schools. We are going to be examined by the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child early next year. It made a recommendation. I am not sure a link can always be made to the atmosphere regarding bullying in schools because some schools go above and beyond others, but it is a matter we need to address.

The Deputy asked about the age groups that experience bullying. We do not know because the data are not being captured.

That is a massive problem.

Ms Saoirse Brady

That is one of the key factors to be examined. Identity-based bullying, including of Traveller, Roma and LGBTI children, needs to be examined. If we could address that, it would be a huge step forward.

That is a very strong point.

Mr. Philip Arneill

Could I add to that? Professor Mona O'Moore of the National Anti-Bullying Research and Resource Centre in DCU showed in her research from 2012 that 61% of victims of cyberbullying were also victims of traditional bullying and that 67% of cyberbullies were also traditional bullies.

There is a very clear link between that culture of what we would consider more traditional, old-fashioned bullying and cyberbullying. The two are very closely linked.

I welcome our guests. Their contributions have been very valuable. Combined with what we heard last week from psychotherapists, clinical psychologists and psychiatrists from many different groups, the key issues that came across were the school environment, how important it is schools engage with instances of bullying as well as, and Ms Connolly might have mentioned this, how this impacts not just the children who endure bullying but also the perpetrators and bystanders. We heard a statistic last week on the high number of children who were presenting. It was not just the victims of bullying. This also impacts on people who are doing the bullying and on bystanders.

It was a very impressive presentation from Mr. Ben Holmes of Webwise. It is great to have such a young man here to speak to us, so I thank him. I am sure Bunclody in Wexford is proud to have him here. A few of my family are in that area. My question for him is about mediation skills, particularly what type of mediation. This was raised with me by another parent. Could there be training in mediation skills for teachers? Teachers have a heavy load, but perhaps there is some type of intervention that might be helpful. He also said the peer-to-peer aspect is very important. What might an ideal school managing an instance of bullying well might look like?

I thank Ms Connolly for her presentation on behalf of Barnardos. It is amazing that it has 40 centres. The work Barnardos does is phenomenal. I am very interested in the roots of the empathy programme. I had never heard of it, and it is wonderful. It shows the importance of us speaking about it. I am aware of Webwise.ie and tacklebullying.ie and the programmes that are available. I am curious about how Barnardos got the mother and the child engaged and how this process started. How can schools register for something like this? How do they engage with Barnardos? It is the practical aspect.

I thank Mr. O'Connor from Inclusion Ireland. I work closely with the Minister of State at the Department of Education, Deputy Madigan. I know there is examination of the school inclusion model, the pilot that is being rolled out to schools in which there are additional speech and language supports. However, Mr. O'Connor pointed out that special needs are particularly impacted when it comes to bullying. Is there something within the school inclusion model that is being rolled out that could be considered as well with regard to bullying?

I also thank Ms Brady. She mentioned that more than 80% of teachers were surveyed, and 20% are not clear on exactly what steps to follow. Does this just point to further training or is it a case that schools run a mock incident of bullying and this is how it would be managed? Sometimes this role playing is very important.

Mr. Ben Holmes

I will go first. I will be brief as the Senator asked many questions. Mediation is very black and white. It is easy in this type of environment to make a bullying situation very general and very black and white, but usually it is not. For every severe bullying case one will come across, there will probably be ones that are less severe. In many situations such as those, and even with people I know when they have occurred, perhaps both parties involved have done something and have fought back at each other. If I have done something to somebody else, my school has a very harsh and strict anti-bullying policy. If a student who has done something says, "This person did it to me", that person gets punishment without any type of investigation into it or often any type of mediation. It is easy to say, "This girl says that you have done something", and immediately believe that when, in fact, often it can be everyone doing something malicious to each other. That is what I meant in my opening statement when I spoke about mediation, that it is not seen as black and white and it is investigated further.

As regards what an ideal system would be, one does not have to train every teacher to deal with bullying. It is necessary to train every teacher to be able to see bullying and be able to refer that to somebody higher up. If there were therapists in schools, such as CAMHS therapists, it would be a really good step for the Government to take. If one were to refer the matter to senior management, somebody specific who deals with it, the guidance counsellors or a therapist in a school, that person could then deal with it. It is not that every teacher must be equipped to deal with it on the spot, but that the teacher is equipped to refer it to somebody who would know what to do. In addition, the student knows he or she could go to that person higher up as well. That would be essential.

Ms Suzanne Connolly

I will speak briefly on the roots of empathy. We have been delivering it since 2011, and 18,631 children have benefitted from it. It is in 20 counties. It is being done predominantly through word of mouth. A volunteer mother or father or both come in with their baby. It is up to the age of a year. It is delivered in primary school between the ages of five and 12. It has been proven. There is numerous research at the highest level and randomised control trials in terms of it reducing aggression and bullying in schools.

I thank the Senator for her interest. If anybody wishes to see it, it really warms the heart. It is wonderful. Even for children with very challenging needs in the school who find it difficult to sit still or to concentrate, as soon as a baby comes in the baby takes over. The children then see their peers differently through observing the way they are with the baby. The teacher gets a chance to see what is happening in the classroom differently. They get a chance to talk about the baby's development after the session. There are three sessions in all in consecutive weeks. It is a fabulous programme. It is very effective.

I thank Ms Connolly. It is a great dynamic.

Ms Saoirse Brady

Mr. Holmes covered many of the points the Senator put to me. The other thing is that some type of programme should be put in place for teacher training. The Department should provide resources and continuing professional development, CPD, opportunities for people to continue to train in how to address bullying. Updating the national action plan on bullying would be key to this. Having routine refresher courses on that would also help. My nephew is a roots of empathy baby so it is a fabulous programme.

Mr. Mark O'Connor

As Ms Brady said, Mr. Holmes covered many of the bases with regard to the issues raised. Specifically on disability, I would point to training and CPD on inclusion. At second level, according to ASTI, the training its members have received heretofore specifically on special education has been less than impressive. We can even look at special schools. One of the people a young person can go to if he or she is being bullied is the guidance counsellor, but those people are not in special schools. They simply do not exist. They are a couple of logical pieces. In addition, as Mr. Holmes said, that CAMHS support going into schools would be more than valuable.

Ms McGarrigle is indicating that she wishes to speak.

Ms Jane McGarrigle

It is on the peer-to-peer question. We run an annual peer-led training initiative. Mr. Holmes is part of it. On the question of what is effective in the peer-led area, the most effective responses we see in that is that the peer-led training is part of a whole-school approach. It is supported by ongoing lessons in the classrooms, supported by teachers, supported by robust policies and involves everybody. Our peer-led training initiative gives students the opportunity to identify issues that are important to them. In saying that, I am talking about online safety and cyberbullying in particular. One of the big issues that emerged from our peer-led training initiative this year was that post-primary students were really keen to involve and support parents as well. There should be additional supports and training available for parents. We have seen increased engagement from parents in online safety this year as we all have spent more time online. It is very important that we do as much as we can to involve parents and give them access to training and to supports that work with them.

I thank our guests. It is great to have all their wisdom. I did an online safety course with my children. It was amazing.

There were many ways in which I knew things they did not know and they knew things I did not know. As Mr. Arneill has said, sometimes we are inclined to steer clear of things because we do not feel we have the knowledge when actually there is some wisdom that comes from age. Then there is some new wisdom that comes from young people, which we still have not caught up with either. It is very well worth doing.

I brought up the issue of empathy last week. I am a big fan of the empathy programme. It is, in some ways, replicating what happens in society generally around empathy. What are the witnesses' thoughts on whether school life is adequately reflecting real life outside of school? If it is not, then we are missing a trick when it comes to empathy. Perhaps there are other structural things happening in schools that stop empathy from happening. In some other countries, for example, multi-age education is used because it is clear older children are more empathetic when they are around younger children and younger children learn from older children. Are there some structural aspects of our educational system that the witnesses believe could actually change the way people feel about each other and so we could have more empathy? Mr. O'Connor made an excellent point about the othering of some people in society. What are the representatives' thoughts on that?

Another suggestion came up last week around getting young people involved in putting in place the policies for their school. This would be hugely effective. As Mr. Holmes has said, young people know a lot more and are a lot more advanced in some ways than we might think. In the context of a more democratic approach to schooling in the State, young people are catching us up, not the other way around.

Mr. Ben Holmes

On the empathy aspect and talking to each other, the peer-to-peer led programmes are essential for learning empathy within schools. We are here to be educated and we are here to learn, but it is not very often we get to hear the opinions of peers and what they think, especially where I am. Programmes where we are all talking to each other, such as peer-to-peer programmes, can help to build empathy.

The training of teachers so they can make sure everyone is included is even more essential within primary schools because the class has only one teacher for the whole year. A teacher may have something against a student or not like the student. I am aware from personal experience that such a teacher can make the primary school experience horrible. Such training is essential.

On the democratic approach, I am aware many young people would be very happy to contribute to decisions based on the education system. Students are trying to get involved anyway with Government and with decisions being made. I know many people who want to contribute but there is a real lack of peer voice and of student voice within current legislation and in the decisions made by the Government. It is definitely essential.

I would hope that is changing a little. I thank Mr. Holmes.

Mr. Mark O'Connor

I agree with Mr. Holmes wholeheartedly in that. If we want policies within schools to succeed, then we must involve the young people in the schools in developing the policies. When they have this level of buy-in, they will succeed.

Inclusive education for all people is enshrined in the Convention on the Rights of the Child and in the Convention of the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. The National Council for Special Education, NCSE, is looking at this and will bring forward policy recommendations to the Department. They will be very challenging for this committee. There is one thing we do know about inclusive education systems: when people are educated together, they are used to each other, they are more involved, and we know from the research that it leads to more inclusive societies where the othering and the bullying reduces.

Ms Suzanne Connolly

I will make a quick point about empathy. One of the things I really like about the programme is that it teaches children about different temperaments. Some children are very active and some are less active. Some children can concentrate and some do not. Some will be taller than others and so on. In that way, children can get to understand how they are both similar and different. It goes back to that progression towards understanding the variety of human beings and relationships. It decreases bullying and aggression because not only have they observed each other with a baby, they have also observed each other and concentrated on a really positive shared experience about development. That is what contributes to the reduction of bullying in the schoolyard and outside of that. As adults we must model all the time for children.

Mr. Philip Arneill

On whether schools reflect society, I believe the answer is "No". I have found that schools are always in the rearguard and catching up. I believe strongly that schools should be at the vanguard. We see this with the discussion over sex education, which is still being dictated by the church. It does not reflect the society we live in. We see it even with issues such as the amount of time spent on handwriting. When a person enters the world of work, how often does he or she actually employ that skill? On devices, for example, during the pandemic we delivered webinars into schools once they came back into session and we have found that maybe there is one device in the classroom. Part of talking about cyberbullying and the training of teachers must also go hand in hand with getting that technological infrastructure into schools so it reflects the society into which the children will graduate and work. If we are not preparing them for the society they will live in as adults, then what is the purpose of schools in the first place?

Ms Saoirse Brady

I agree wholeheartedly with what has been said about involving children and young people in the development of programmes, policies and everything else to do with the running of their school. This is key. It is a key tenet of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.

I thank all of our guests for attending. I am very interested in what Ms Connolly said in her statement. I am especially curious about the roots of empathy programme and the friendship group. Empathy is even difficult for some adults to have, so it must be very challenging for it to be taught to children. Even in advance of children going to school, what can parents do to try to ensure children are more empathetic or more conscious of and sensitive to the needs of others?

Ms Suzanne Connolly

We know that one of the best ways children learn to be sensitive to others is when they have an attuned parent who is sensitive to them. If, through the parenting relationship from when the baby is born, a child feels seen, heard and responded to in all the things he or she goes through, and if the child feels safe, then gradually he or she will learn how to regulate the emotions and will then be in a position to be a particular type of growing child. Often, children who have experienced very harsh home environments learn to manage their negative feelings in particular and then they go to school and act it out. In a sense, when I spoke about prevention or intervention I was referring to our early years services, but I could have gone back a lot further, even to how the mother is supported in pregnancy, if she has a partner there, which matters, and the support provided in those crucial times after the baby is born. Children are learning constantly from a very early age that they are valued and valuable.

If a person feels valued and valuable, he or she will value other people.

We teach in the friendship group how children can negotiate with each other. As adults we are not in a school playground. One of the tricky things that can happen us as adults is to know when to interfere with difficulties in friendships. We want to help children negotiate for themselves because they need to learn those skills. We are trying to coach. We have had friendship groups where children were able to say to another child "I felt very bullied by you" and as an adult one does not react to that. An adult asks the child to explain more and tries to get the children to sort it out. I have known of situations where parents have gone into schools and they have tried to address it, and sometimes they have to if it is very serious, but if a parent intervenes too soon, the parent is not helping the child.

There is a line between exclusion and bullying. Sometimes a child’s intention may not be to bully another child but the effect of what the child is doing is that the other child feels excluded. How do we counteract that or try to ensure that a child is more inclusive when it comes to engagement with other children in his or her class?

Ms Suzanne Connolly

That is a tricky one because children have to be able to make their own friends, and they will make their own friends. We cannot expect a child to be friends with everyone. One has to help a child who is feeling excluded and neglected to develop their social skills. It depends on the context. I am conscious I am being very general. Sometimes a friendship group can be created around a child but, ultimately, if a child is feeling he or she is not developing friends in school, I often advise parents to try to get the child to have an interest where the child would have a natural forming group of peers. Many of us will know from being at school that a child's friendship groups change over time and he or she has to negotiate. It is a matter of listening to one's child, being supportive and giving them confidence. I would be interested to know what Mr. Holmes thinks about this. Gradually children have to make their own friends. That is the reality.

Does Mr. Holmes want to comment on this point?

Mr. Ben Holmes

Within primary school and even secondary school there is exclusion and situations where people do not necessarily want to be forced to be friends with someone else. In the past if a young person has been excluded or somebody does not want to be friends with them we have told them it is the fault of the person who does not want to be friends with them. We have blamed the people who are doing the excluding. As much as a young person should not exclude a person, especially in a very negative way where it is associated with bullying, as Ms Connolly said, it is useful to teach children better social skills and advise them these are the things they can do to improve. Some young people as they move into their teenage years can go through their whole lives thinking that for some reason people do no like them or do not want to be friends with them. They have never been told they can do these things to improve their social skills and learn to make friends better, and that is essential.

I have one further question, which Mr. O'Connor, Mr. Arneill or Ms Brady might deal with it. It concerns the issue Deputy Ó Cathasaigh raised about social media companies. The world has been transformed with the development of online technology in the past 20 years but that has also transformed the pressures on children. We talk about placing responsibilities and obligations on the school to ensure bullying does not take in the school. We all agree further work needs to be done by social media companies. How inadequate has their performance been to date in responding to the threat posed to their customers, namely, children as a result of bullying online?

Ms Saoirse Brady

I will deal with that. The tech companies have a responsibility to address many of these issues. They have put in place some measures to deal with them but much more needs to be done. I mentioned the online safety and media regulation Bill that is going through and the role for the online safety commissioner. That is key to this issue. We need to ensure they have robust powers to deal with what is happening in respect of tech companies, and those companies have a responsibility to examine the way they design their platforms, particularly being mindful of children and young people. The Council of Europe has issued a recommendation on the rights of children in the digital age, which has much useful information on how to address some of these issues. The UN Committee on the Rights of the Child released a general comment in March on consideration of some of the issues arising for children and young people in the digital age. The UN convention was signed in 1989. The Internet was only in its infancy then. The convention did not deal with all the issues children and young people deal with today. Both of those elements are informed by experts in the field as well as children and young people who have had to deal with some of these issues. They point to ways in which tech companies can design better platforms for children and young people and ensure that they are better protected. The online safety commissioner is the other key to this and having that in place here to ensure that tech companies must be held accountable.

Another element is an individual complaints mechanism, to which Mr. Arneill alluded, but the Bill does not deal with that. A super complaints mechanism that would go through non-governmental organisations is not good enough. We need to ensure fair procedures are followed to ensure there is some mechanism for individuals, particularly children and young people, to complain about tech companies where they have not addressed their issues. Those are some elements that could help with this issue. The Deputy is correct about pushing back on some of the issues tech companies say they have addressed. I do not think that they have fully addressed them.

I thank Ms Brady for that.

Mr. Philip Arneill

Self-regulation is not working. We have evidence that it is simply is not working. We must stop being so naive. These companies are profit-making and the only thing really that will make a difference is if it affects their bottom line. It is not sufficient to ask them to regulate themselves. When it comes to age verification, it is not working. Children are already online. These platforms and the Internet, on a bigger level, were not designed for children. We must push back on social media companies. If there is the political will, they have the resources and the technology to create more ethical design when it comes to their platforms. This is the responsibility of Government. We must push back and try to get this regulatory power back in the hands of the Government when it comes to social media platforms.

I thank Mr. Arneill for that.

Ms Connolly wants to come in. A number of members want to contribute and we will have some time at the end for comments. I call Senator Mullen.

I welcome all our speakers and thank them for their fascinating and important insights on these important issues. I was touched, in particular, by the roots of empathy programme and how it is working and I was also interested to hear in some cases it involves a mum or a dad and, in some cases, both. That prompts me to ask Ms Connolly if there any studies on the impact of father absence on bullying. It is an issue people are often reluctant to talk about. I read an article from the Annual Review of Sociology, which examined the evidence of the consequences of father absence. There seems to be strong evidence it can affect children’s social and emotional development, particularly by increasing externalising behaviour. While we need to be careful how we talk about that, is that an issue we need to talk about if we are serious about addressing the problems?

Ms Suzanne Connolly

I know the research the Senator referenced. Children need love, care and attention and safety and understanding but they also need boundaries. They need to know all feelings are acceptable but some behaviour is not acceptable. If they are growing up in an environment where they are not given those types of boundaries, they are not challenged when their behaviour is acceptable and there are no consequences for negative behaviour, then one is doing one's child no favours. A variety of parents can provide that approach but certainly children do need both.

I wish to follow up on the tech companies with Mr. Arneill or whoever would like to respond. Are we sometimes too afraid to deprecate and to call it like it is with respect to the too early and too frequent access to technology? Is there a tendency, and the research shows it, that the potential for cyberbullying increases as children’s access to technology increases?

Do we not have to ask questions about empowering parents to say "not too soon" for access to technology, not too frequent during the day and not late at night or in the bedroom? Do we need to get back to that kind of braver discussion? This is about "noes" as well as "yeses", is it not?

Mr. Philip Arneill

It is about setting regulations and rules within the house, for sure, and we would definitely push that with parents to establish acceptable norms. That needs to be modelled by the parents so there is no point in telling kids to put their devices away if a parent is checking their work email at the dinner table. It is not necessarily tech. Tech can be very empowering. I have seen this in education where it can be incredibly transformational. It is the type of tech and what is attractive. Kids are attracted to things such as Snapchat and TikTok which are ultimately not designed for eight-year-olds. If parental, guardian or carers' support is there then they play a part in establishing that access.

Of course it is too late if one takes the tech off the child as a response to him or her being bullied because that would be a disincentive to the child to tell about what might be happening.

There were a number of references by colleagues on the role of faith-based education. There was a tendency to talk about it as though it were a problem whereas I have a different optic. There is a Christian heritage, while it is more contested in our country now than it used to be, which is still a big influence on our schools. Part of that Christian heritage is the "love your neighbour" and "treat others as you would like them to treat you" principles, to look out for the vulnerable in particular. It seems to me that there is real positive heritage to draw on and use here and that perhaps faith schools in particular can set an example with their long-standing insights into how to promote the love your neighbour principle. Can we see that in more positive terms? It was brought home to me when a Catholic school principal told me at the time of the marriage referendum, that they were approached by a student whose family had a principled opposition to the referendum and was taking the most heat from colleagues at the time because of the shift in attitudes in society. We perhaps do not think about that very much, that we are in a constantly changing society where yesterday's focus of intolerance might be very different from that today. Is there a more positive ground we can reach for around using the inheritance of faith-based education to promote the love your neighbour principle and the anti-bullying consequences that surely flow from it?

Mr. Ben Holmes

If I may, I would like to come in here. I know I am very young and you might think that maybe I would not be able to speak on this but as a young person in Ireland today I know that Ireland is evolving very rapidly and many young people would not consider themselves practising Catholics. There have been different stages of secularising by the Government in the last few decades as people of other religions have joined the country and as people have left the Catholic faith or it has had less influence. I wholeheartedly agree that the love your neighbour principle should be something that schools promote. I think people's main gripe with the church becoming involved in education is around certain opinions it might hold on exclusion, sex education and LGBTQ+ people. While the love your neighbour principle is great, that is not the only thing that the Catholic Church might promote. We cannot necessarily say that what the Catholic Church promotes is always positive. When it comes to things where it excludes education on same-sex couples, comprehensive education around sexuality and sex education, that is where it becomes a problem. If the rest of the Government and society as a whole are quite secularist, I do not see why our education could not reflect that.

We certainly need diversity, I suppose.

Mr. Mark O'Connor

I think Ben said most of what I was going to say. I do not think the two necessarily have to be combined but there is something there, particularly around today's subject of bullying in schools, that we should all strive to treat others as we would like to be treated, regardless of whether a school is faith-based, Educate Together, or whatever the environment. I strongly agree with Ben's words.

Ms Saoirse Brady

Ben summed it up very eloquently. Really, it is about respect in schools for everyone. We have to think about what human rights and equality really means. As long as people are adhering to that, that is the important thing. It can happen in a faith-based school as well as a non-denominational or multi-denominational school. We have such a reliance on faith-based schools in the system, because they do make up the majority of primary schools in particular, different people are in them because all of society is represented in those schools, which we have to acknowledge. If there is consistency around some of the teaching in those schools, particularly around some of those issues such as relationships and sexuality education for example, as long as it is factually and scientifically based, we are all on solid ground here.

Exactly, yes. The values are fundamentally about respecting people. Even if there is a difference of views about ethical issues it should always be possible, it seems to me, as part of the formation of students to say that we talk about these issues where different points of view were always heard.

Ms Saoirse Brady

I think so. The only place where that freedom of expression might be in question is where it crosses a line. We are looking at the introduction of hate crime legislation which is obviously the extreme, I am not saying that is what happens, but a line will be drawn and that is where we can look at it. Discussion and respectful debate is the way forward. That always helps to address some of the issues that arise for people, particularly around bullying.

Is there room for one last question?

I want to come in myself and another Deputy wishes to come back in but I will allow the Senator to come back in.

The importance of including the voices of young people in finding solutions to the issues of school bullying has been repeatedly highlighted. It was notable today in Mr. Holmes's opening statement. There was mention of gardaí coming in and giving their position but it is more about the legal side. How can young people be better included in discussions, and also parents? I believe that parents have a very important role to play here. Some parents understand social media and can identify an issue with a child when the child comes home from school while some parents may not be as quick to find the issue.

Mr. Ben Holmes

On how my peers and students can get involved, if programmes are being delivered by teachers to students, students should be involved in creating and shaping those programmes. If, for example, a programme in my school was being given to first years, if myself and other sixth year students who have more maturity and experience were able to shape those programmes based on our experiences rather than adults doing so based on their experiences 30 or 40 years ago, that would really benefit the younger students, especially those coming into secondary school.

While there are good programmes delivered by gardaí and we do need to know about the legal implications, if there is not a comprehensive programme in my school and I have not been told anything else and they come in and say something is wrong and something is right, that is all I have and it does not cover the emotional aspect that I need in order to have a comprehensive understanding of the subject.

Other than those kinds of programmes delivered by adults, there are just the general peer-on-peer discussions within that, where perhaps a programme is delivered by a teacher, An Garda Síochána, or by any such group, and after that this should be followed by a peer discussion, no matter what the topic is. I hope that answer helps.

Perhaps Mr O'Connor might speak from the parents’ point of view as to how to bring parents in and include them more, and if he might be able to give some tips for them in that regard.

Mr. Mark O'Connor

I can address both issues. It is relatively easily done; it is just a matter of a willingness to want to do it. As an example, we are working with two human rights organisations within the State about including the rights of children with disabilities in the reporting by the State under various conventions. With parents, it is a matter of reaching out to them, asking them and creating a facilitation. It is not difficult and is a question of putting a resource in place for it. There may be some capacity building involved, depending on where the young people and parents are coming from and their knowledge of the issue but it is easily doable. It is something we do quite regularly in our own work in consulting with people with disabilities. It is as easy to do that with children and families.

At our meeting last week, and it is also in our committee report on Covid-19, it was recommended that emotional and therapeutic supports should be provided in schools. The Ombudsman for Children made a recommendation to the joint committee on 4 May and specified that this should be rolled out in primary schools and we spoke about this being rolled out on a pilot basis. Can Mr. Arneill and Ms Brady give the committee their views on this issue?

Ms Saoirse Brady

There is a real need for more therapeutic support in schools. In the survey that we included in our submission, where principals themselves were interviewed and surveyed, there was a real need for properly trained therapeutic supports in schools. Otherwise it falls to teachers. We know that there is a great deal on their plate already. We know that Covid-19, in particular, has had a detrimental impact on the mental health of children and young people throughout the education system. We do not know what the ramifications are going to be in the longer-term. There are a couple of opportunities coming up as well to address what might happen there.

One is the Better Outcomes, Brighter Futures: The National Policy Framework for Children and Young People, 2014-2020. A new policy of this type will be coming up. This will need to address the recovery for children and young people following the impact of Covid-19 and there should be a big focus on education in that new policy framework.

When we go to the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child, a spotlight will be shone on and what is happening in our education system. We are very glad that schools were prioritised, particularly during the Covid-19 pandemic and that they have reopened. All schools need those supports to be put in place, not only to deal with Covid-19, but the supports that are necessary were not there in the first place to deal with some of the issues that are arising through bullying and other mental health and socio-behavioural issues. That is particularly the case in schools where children may be experiencing poverty or homelessness. We do not always know what is going on in the life of a child or young person. If we had those supports in place perhaps we might be able to assess in a better way what is happening for them and to provide them with the in-school supports that are there. Where out-of-school supports are necessary and perhaps where an issue is more serious, there should be a link-up and a way for teachers and for the educational psychologists in the schools to refer those children onwards.

How does Mr. Arneill feel that we might be able to convince the Department of Education, with its lack of funding - I will not describe it as an excuse - to have these type of people in the schools? I suggested to the ombudsman last week that there could be a pilot project. How does Mr. Arneill feel that we could roll out a pilot project in some primary schools?

Mr. Philip Arneill

Any kind of specialist support is going to be preferable but if it is a case of budget and there is that inability to roll that out to all schools then it could be done in a kind of cascading way by identifying, perhaps, a staff member. We have certainly pushed for this with digital skills, in general, by having a specialist within the staff who is trained up. Similarly, when it comes to the sort of issues that arise from bullying and cyberbullying, if a school does not have that specialist support in-house in the form of an educational psychologist or a counsellor, for example, it will have to upskill teachers with the knowledge and understanding to recognise these situations when they happen, by giving them the ability to mediate, and to be very clear as a staff as to what steps to follow in these instances.

It can be quite traumatic for teachers. Children brought phones to me with indecent images on them, for example, when I was teaching. It is shocking because one is immediately unsure as to how to react. Ensuring that there are very clear policy documents in place in all schools is very important and that all staff know where that policy is, can access it, and that they also know the steps to follow.

One example that comes to mind is of images of minors. By screenshotting those or sharing them with a colleague, even if this is done out of concern, teachers are then putting themselves into compromising positions. Having that specialist knowledge of how to deal with these situations and knowledge of the legal implications so that teachers are also protected is really essential. If the money is not there to roll that out in a wholescale way to all schools then identifying, perhaps, pioneer schools, where that information can be cascaded down through and identifying staff members then at a local level within individual schools who will be trained in that specialist knowledge is an option.

I thank Mr. Arneill. I have one final question which I will refer to Mr. Holmes and to Ms Connolly. Suicide is an enormous issue for younger people and is happening within our secondary school system. We all have our own very sad individual stories. Mr. Holmes referred, in one of his statements, to his role as a suicide prevention ambassador. Perhaps he might expand on what that role might involve and his insights into what needs to be done on this issue. I am also interested in Ms Connolly’s input on this question.

Mr. Ben Holmes

To begin, I am a Cycle Against Suicide ambassador, which is an organisation that deals with mental health and young people. If I was to focus on one thing about suicide prevention and mental health in general in young people, I would say that it is very easy to rationalise it as adults, and to bring it down to saying that if we spread positivity, that that will stop it. Young people are smarter than that. As much as one can stick up posters that say that suicide is not the answer and one can cover over a school environment or bullying that is going on, that is not the way to stop suicide or these issues. A much more hands-on approach is needed and obviously we have been talking about peer-to-peer discussions and of teachers being trained properly to deal with this. That is essential to allow people to understand suicide. When it comes back to where we are talking about having therapists and specialists in schools, I am an 18-year-old now, and if my information is correct, I lost access to CAMHS or other external therapy organisations a year ago, yet young people in my age group, between 16 and 18, are much more likely to commit suicide or have these issues than students who are younger, who are not going to be doing the leaving certificate examination, and who do not have as many adult stressors in their life. That represents the contrast to me between what is actually happening and the infrastructure that is being provided, and there is a real imbalance between them.

I thank Mr. Holmes very much and call Ms Connolly now for her views, please.

Ms Suzanne Connolly

This needs to be taken very seriously. Children and young people will have what we have called “feeling low”, which is one thing. Then there are very serious suicidal feelings. What is needed in the first instance is that children feel that they can talk exactly about how they are feeling and, exactly as Mr Holmes was saying, that they are not dismissed or told to just think positively, to do exercise and to have positive affirmations. If someone is seriously thinking about harming himself or herself, that is not going to help. What is needed then is a circle of support around that young person. One also needs to recognise the point at which one brings in particular specialist support that really offers concrete support and listens.

For some young people it could also relate to meaning and purpose. We know that things have been very difficult for young people during the pandemic. I, and all of us in Barnardos, worry about it. The first thing is to allow that range of feelings. People should not try to talk some young person out of it if they are feeling low and rather should ask, "How can we support you? What is useful for you? If you need a specialist mental health service, that is available." Then it is really necessary to monitor and support. For some young people it is not unusual to go through a phase of feeling low, but for some it is really serious. We should never oversimplify it.

Which of the social media sites has the biggest effect on young people? Facebook seems to have gone out the window and it is not as modern as Snapchat and various other sites. Which social media platform do students bring to the witnesses' attention on a recurring basis, indicating it is a big problem leading to people causing self-harm? Bullying is no longer restricted to school but comes home with the students through social media platforms. Ms McGarrigle wishes to speak.

Ms Jane McGarrigle

I wish to respond to the Chairman's question on industry and the platforms. I know we are not able to name platforms. The platforms vary in size. This is evolving all the time and new platforms come up. The role of industry is one of the biggest things we spoke about when we sat down with our youth panel. We obviously welcome the Online Safety and Media Regulation Bill, but industry, particularly the bigger players, can do much more and can take proactive steps.

All the witnesses present are very familiar with new safety features and updates on websites. However, these updates and safety features are not as readily available or communicated to children and young people. Our youth panel informed us they were not aware of any safety centres available on these platforms. We believe industry has that major role to play, and not just schools, parents and young people. Robust effective reporting structures should be in place. Cyberbullying should not be allowed to take place on these platforms.

In my experience, the one I hear about is Snapchat and some of those. I do not want the witnesses to name individual companies. They do not have the same immunity as I have.

I have a question for Mr. O'Connor from Inclusion Ireland. His submission and earlier comments eloquently outlined the importance of inclusive education. I am slightly moving into a wider issue, but I believe it is relevant. Many parents I have spoken to have concerns about the much-discussed New Brunswick model and they would be keen for children to have tailored supports in an environment with other children in special schools and so on. There is that desire for choice so that some people can keep their children in a special school as opposed to a unit. There are different opinions on that. How do we strike that balance? How do we ensure we achieve the greatest level of inclusion possible in the education system? What role can that play in tackling stigma and in tackling bullying based on that stigma? How can we ensure the parents have the option of sending their children to a special school?

Ms Brady, in response earlier to other questions, substantially answered the question I had. I would welcome any other comments she might have on it.

I have a question for the Children's Rights Alliance and Barnardos. While I do not know if we have any statistics, do they have any sense of whether race-based bullying is on the increase or decrease? What are we learning on that matter as time goes on?

Mr. Mark O'Connor

The Deputy has asked a very interesting question that we have pondered extensively in Inclusion Ireland. Many parents I meet will say it can be heartbreaking for them to send their children who do not have a disability to the school around the corner when their other child is going way off to somewhere else to a unit or whatever the case may be. Those parents are in the here and now.

Last week at one of the conferences I believe the chief executive of the National Council for Special Education acknowledged that we are not yet ready for inclusive education in Ireland. It is a journey that will take ten or 15 years to evolve from what we have now to something parents can agree is an option for their child. People simply cannot envisage that at the moment. It is certainly a fundamental right for children to be able to go to their local school. However, as the Deputy said, we need to have those tailor-made supports within the school.

There is talk about various models, including the New Brunswick model the Deputy mentioned. Boiling it down to what we are discussing today - bullying, exclusion and that kind of stuff, as a society we should really be looking at what supports we need to put into schools. Not all of it is down to supports in schools.

As I mentioned earlier, the biggest thing the Government could do would be to have a campaign on removing the stigma that exists in disability. The NDA's research indicates not just in school but in workplaces and elsewhere, people are expressing discomfort around disabled persons and all of that. Targeting the resources is the first thing that could be done.

It is well acknowledged that teachers do not get robust initial teacher training on inclusive education. That applies across the board, including in respect of LGBTI, people from other countries who have come here, the new Irish, people with different religions etc. We know the continuing professional development, CPD, in the area is less than robust. Those matters need to be worked on. At the moment 109,000 people are in a class of more than 30 pupils. To get to a truly inclusive education system we need class sizes of a maximum of 20. Without those foundation stones, we do not have a hope.

I call Senator Mullen and remind him that we need to conclude by 5.30 p.m.

I hope Mr. O'Connor is wrong, because if we do not have a hope until we get those ratios down to where he wants them to be, we are in a bleak situation.

I believe Mr. Arneill mentioned that the poor level of peer intervention among Irish children and teens when they are witness to bullying has been found to be the most resistant to change and will require particular attention. That is the whole thing about helping people to up standards. However, what if that cannot be changed? What if that is part of the reality of human nature, which I suspect it is? The history of the human race is that most people are slow to stand up and call out injustice.

If I am right, part of the answer is we need more focus on building resilience. By resilience I mean two things. First is the need to help a child to understand what is happening. That is into the area of restorative justice and bringing people together to understand processes and helping people to understand the person who is suffering bullying. Second, it is about moving away from the idea that someone is a victim and more to an idea that that person is the agent of positive change. That takes considerable work. Is that focus on resilience important? I would have the fear - I believe many people would - that it might be very difficult to change that poor level of intervention, as Mr. Arneill described it. Mr. Arneill may want to come in to respond to that. I have a second brief question.

It will be a very brief reply from Mr. Arneill and I will need to wrap it up then.

Mr. Philip Arneill

I agree that resilience is important but I suspect that it is not good enough to having a starting point of "That is human nature and things will not change". If we develop skills within children and push a programme on how to become an upstander, which is being a positive agent of change, and then we discover, perhaps, that is not working, that is a different matter. To start or simply write that off from the beginning as part of human nature is not going to be good enough.

Of course, resilience is important. We will be insulted and see things about ourselves that we do not like, so it is a balance between those two things. To get more than 25% of children who witness this kind of behaviour online to even go and tell a trusted adult is definitely a good goal and ambition for us to have not only as teachers but as a society in general.

I laud the efforts but one cannot ignore the laws of nature either. Sometimes one has to work smarter not harder. It is a question of where one puts one's resources and energies without ignoring any element of the strategy.

Unfortunately, we must wrap up the debate because we must finish by 5.30 p.m. due to Covid restrictions and a ruling made by the Houses of the Oireachtas.

I thank all of the witnesses and the members for their participation. I thank the witnesses for coming here today and sharing their insights and expert knowledge on the issue. The discussion has been of enormous assistance to the committee in our examination of this very important issue. The committee is very grateful to all of the witnesses for giving their time and for their dedication and commitment in assisting young people over the past while. Long may they do so.

I commend Mr. Holmes on his eloquent and insightful evidence. The committee is committed to hearing the voices of young people. He is the fourth secondary school student to come before the committee. Very few students had come before the committee prior to this. Young people must be directly involved in all of the policies to combat bullying, build inclusiveness in schools and in our culture, and promote positive mental health. I thank all of the organisations for that work. All of the witnesses have played a very important role in this debate.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.33 p.m. until 3.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 18 May 2021.
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