Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science debate -
Tuesday, 15 Jun 2021

School Bullying and the Impact on Mental Health: Discussion (Resumed)

Chairman

On behalf of the committee, I welcome the following: Professor James O'Higgins Norman, UNESCO chair of tackling bullying and cyberbullying; Dr. Angela Mazzone, chair of the Research Observatory on Cyberbullying, Cyberhate and Online Harassment; Dr. Mairéad Foody, Marie Curie research fellow; Dr. Seline Keating, research fellow in social, personal and health education, SPHE, and well-being; Dr. Alan Gorman, research fellow in anti-bullying policy and practice; and Mr. Darran Heaney, MSc, project manager. They are all from the National Anti-Bullying Research and Resource Centre at DCU. The witnesses are attending to brief the committee on school bullying and its impact on mental health. Before I begin, I thank the centre for its invaluable assistance to the committee. Our seminal meeting with the centre on 5 November had a profound impact, as evidenced by the extensive media coverage seen in recent months. Our examination followed on from that meeting. I am speaking on behalf of the committee when I say that it has proved a worthwhile and important piece of work.

The format of the meeting is that I will invite Professor O'Higgins Norman to make an opening statement, which will be followed by questions from members of the committee. Each member has a six-minute slot to ask questions and the witness will respond within those six minutes. If there is time left over, I will allow members to contribute again. As Professor O'Higgins Norman is probably aware, the committee will publish his opening statement on our website following the meeting.

Before I begin, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect of they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Witnesses are giving evidence remotely from a place outside of the parliamentary precincts and, as such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity as a witness who is physically present does. Witnesses have already been advised of this issue and they may believe it appropriate to take legal advice on same. I remind witnesses of the long-standing practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory regarding an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by me to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I call Professor O'Higgins Norman to make his opening statement.

Professor James O'Higgins Norman

I thank the committee for inviting us to attend this meeting. We are happy to be able to help the committee in its work on school bullying and mental health. DCU's anti-bullying centre is located in the DCU Institute of Education and staff at the centre have been doing research and education on bullying for 25 years. In addition to our research activity, the centre delivers a number of educational resources, including the FUSE programme, which is a nationwide anti-bullying and online safety programme for primary and post-primary schools.

As outlined in our various submissions, previous research has consistently shown that being involved in bullying as a target, bully or bystander at school can be associated with a number of mental health problems, including psychosomatic complaints, anxiety, depression and suicidal ideation. Issues of identity seem to remain at the heart of bullying behaviour. One report from UNESCO involving 144 countries found that physical appearance was the top reason for being bullied. Closer to home and in terms of identity, a recent study at our centre found that teachers of religious education had specific concerns about students who were practising Catholics being targeted for bullying more than those who did not practise a religion.

It is well established in research that negative childhood experiences have a negative effect on the development of a child, particularly when the bullying is related to identity. Our research shows that school principals understand and recognise this. The next step then should not be to go over old ground any longer, but to think critically about how we can prevent bullying. Our research shows that this is the piece that principals are less sure about.

There have been some significant developments at policy level in terms of school bullying, most significant of which was the introduction of the Action Plan on Bullying and the related procedures for primary and post-primary schools as well as Circular 0045/2013, all of which comprised a landmark in educational policy relating to bullying prevention and intervention in schools. We suggest that the Action Plan on Bullying be audited to ensure that it continues to be informed by up-to-date research and evidence, is connected to subsequent policies on child protection, well-being and relationships and sexuality education, RSE, and is benchmarked against the recommendations that were recently published by UNESCO's scientific committee on tackling bullying and cyberbullying in schools. Such a brief audit of the action plan and procedures to ensure that they comply with UNESCO's recommendations will not be overly burdensome, nor will it allow us to be distracted from the continuing task of implementing the action plan and procedures in schools today. Separately, there is a need to provide further support to assist schools in implementing the requirements of the action plan and procedures while also ensuring that, possibly through the Department's inspectorate, schools continue to prioritise bullying prevention and intervention as part of a whole-of-education approach.

Regarding bullying policy, we warn against the dangers of conceptual pluralism where issues like bullying prevention and intervention are conflated with concepts such as well-being and positive school culture, as this may result in a dilution of the focus and efforts required to tackle bullying and cyberbullying fully among children and adolescents in our schools.

Parents and schools are rightly concerned about issues related to cyberbullying and online safety. Moderation of cyberbullying content and behaviours on social media and online gaming platforms is improving and increasingly relies on proactive artificial intelligence, AI, with the aim of identifying bullying before it is reported by a user. Published information on bullying content that is detected proactively would be more meaningful if we had more information, such as the overall incidence of bullying involving minors on a given platform and what supports were provided. To that end, it will be increasingly important to ensure interdepartmental collaboration between the Departments responsible for the action plan and procedures, the online safety and media regulation Bill, as well as the implementation of Coco’s law. Furthermore, in addition to their role in preventing bullying behaviour within schools, school staff need to understand they also have a role under the action plan and procedures regarding bullying that occurs outside of school, including online. Consequently, mechanisms to support closer collaboration between communities, school communities, social media-gaming platforms and statutory agencies will be required. This has already started informally, for example, between Dublin City University, Facebook and the Department of Education regarding the roll-out of our FUSE anti-bullying and online safety programme. The results of our current fieldwork suggest this could also include greater collaboration directly between schools and online platforms in reporting abusive content.

Over the past three years, we have translated our research on school bullying and cyberbullying into a programme of resources for schools. This programme, called FUSE, was made possible with financial support from Facebook, Rethink Ireland and the Department of Education. At the heart of the FUSE programme is the aim of building capacity in schools to tackle bullying and online safety and to empower children and adolescents to understand their own behaviour, be able to recognise bullying and online safety risks and to be confident in how to report and seek support when they need it. So far, more than 12,000 students have been registered on the programme across 127 schools in every county. Evaluations show the majority of those who complete the programme have increased their self-efficacy in noticing, responding and reporting bullying and online safety issues.

On the question of what to do next, based on national and international research, we recommend there be an audit of the action plan on bullying and the procedures to ensure they continue to be informed by the latest research and comply with UNESCO’s whole-education approach. We need further fieldwork to understand why some schools are encountering challenges in implementing the existing action plan and procedures. We need to increase transparency from schools, social media, gaming and other online platforms on how they are handling reports of bullying and cyberbullying. We need greater awareness raising of the vulnerability of students based on identity. We need greater involvement from the Department of Education’s inspectorate in supporting schools to implement, review and take action on bullying prevention and intervention programmes. Schools need to have appropriate access to counselling for those negatively affected by bullying. We also believe schools need to be required to provide specific hours each year to implement an approved programme of resources such as the FUSE programme to teach about bullying prevention within a whole-education approach and alongside social personal and health education, SPHE, relationships and sexuality education, RSE, and well-being frameworks.

Chairman

I thank Professor O'Higgins Norman for his presentation. The first questioner is Deputy Ó Murchú who will be followed by Senator Dolan.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

In fairness to Professor O’Higgins Norman, he dealt with the whole issue of the necessity for joined-up thinking. We need to get it right with respect to schools, communities and beyond. He addressed the specific difficulties with social media, the cyberworld and gaming platforms. Who should be involved in recording the metrics? I imagine it would be the companies but what exactly are we talking about?

Does Professor O’Higgins Norman consider there is a need for a digital safety commissioner or similar who would have some element of oversight? These tech companies have the facility, as Professor O'Higgins Norman referenced, of using AI from the perspective of having a general ability to notice this type of behaviour. He also spoke about the need for greater collaboration with schools, which we would need to facilitate. How would that relationship work? What would be the structure and enforcement powers, for want of a better term? How would we see the outworkings of that? If Professor O'Higgins Norman could answer those questions, I may ask a follow-up question.

Professor James O'Higgins Norman

In our opening statement, we note that there is a need for us to recognise that issues of bullying and cyberbullying exist within our community, as do schools, and in the past we tended to see these as problems that schools had to address on their own. We typically talked about whole-school approaches to tackling bullying and cyberbullying. However, now we are looking at a different type of world, a much more joined-up world, both online and offline. The idea that a school would be left to deal with an issue like bullying or cyberbullying on its own would not work. We suggest there is a role for the school, as part of the wider education system and societal system, to be connected in some way with the online safety commissioner or directly with social media companies or gaming companies, which might have a facility to report negative and abusive content that is not picked up by AI. For example, one suggestion we make is that there be a trusted person in each school to whom children or parents could report if they are concerned about something going on in the school that has made its way online, and there would be a speedy communication line directly to someone who could do something about it, whether that be in the social media company, the gaming platform or at a regulatory level with respect to the online safety commissioner. There needs to be a formal structure in place for that.

We know AI is working to a certain extent when it is used by social media and gaming platforms but we do not have a full picture of how well it is working. Many of the metrics are collected internally by the private companies and access to those is quite limited from a research point of view. We are flagging that the more information we have, the more we will be able to decide in wider society how effective these AI methods are.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Two points arise. We need to make sure those metrics are provided, be it to a digital safety commissioner or whomever it may be, and ensure that officeholder has sufficient resources to deal with that issue. We also need a best practice communication line, particularly, as Professor O'Higgins Norman said, if there is a trusted person in a school to whom such communication could be made. People understand that. While we may get the best case scenario of dealing with gaming companies and so on, legislation may be required to ensure they comply with certain rules to ensure we have a decent level of interaction. I assume Professor O'Higgins Norman is calling for us to put a structure in place to ensure we get the metrics and have best case communication protocols.

Professor James O'Higgins Norman

Yes, exactly.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

That is a straightforward ask. Beyond that, in the context of some of the studies DCU has done, a number of commentators have stated that when bullying is identity-based it has a greater impact. What is Professor O'Higgins Norman's view on the facility within schools to deal with the outworkings of some bad cases where someone has been greatly impacted? We have heard recently there is insufficient provision of counselling or therapeutic counselling at primary and secondary level. What is Professor O'Higgins Norman's view on what is needed in that area?

Professor James O'Higgins Norman

There is a spectrum of experiences in relation to bullying, whether it is identity-based or not. There will be people at one end of the spectrum who may experience being targeted and they will have sufficient support around them and it will be dealt with sufficiently to minimise the impact on them or the people who witness it, or even the people who carry out the bullying behaviour.

At the other end of the spectrum, we have people who will be severely traumatised by bullying experiences whether, as I said earlier, they are targets, bystanders or engaging in bullying behaviour. They will need a more specialised level of therapeutic intervention. Something that has come up in our research is that access to this type of therapeutic intervention is not always immediately available or clearly immediately available to schools. Something on this would be very helpful to provide the service for those who need it. Not everybody who experiences bullying would need this type of care but for those who do need it, it should be easily accessible and readily available.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Let us accept that what we really need is the best case scenario with regard to removing as much bullying as possible, and this is having a community-based programme and a connection with social media and gaming companies. It also involves a whole-of-school approach. How has Professor O'Higgins Norman found this? I imagine the best programmes are those in which children and parents are involved and that teachers buy into in a big way. I would like to hear about the research Professor O'Higgins Norman has carried out in this field.

Professor James O'Higgins Norman

Bullying prevention and intervention are two different things related to each other. Intervention comes when it is already too late and the bullying has taken place. This is where we need other supports. If we can do as much as possible to prevent bullying, and link it into the whole education and society approach, then we can remove the need for a lot of intervention. Our FUSE anti-bullying and online safety programme, which we deliver from the centre, is based on our research. We are gathering data all the time when we are rolling it out. It is designed to fuse together, which is where the name comes from, the agency of the children themselves, the concerns of the parents and the professionalism of the teachers. When all three are brought together something can happen in bullying prevention. I will refer to my colleague, Mr. Darran Heaney, who is the project manager and who might say more about the programme.

Mr. Darran Heaney

The FUSE programme is underpinned by a whole education approach. When all of these facets work together, namely, the parents, the school community and the teachers, there is a much greater impact, as opposed to a stand-alone resource operating in a school over a specific period of time. The FUSE programme is evidence based. It is linked to the nine components of the whole education approach. FUSE shows up in each of these nine components, whether looking at student agency, education of the teachers, policy and policy development. We are in the second year of it and it has been really well received by schools. This year,127 schools have participated and even while they had struggles with Covid they still delivered and it was still engaged with. As it is the end of the academic year, we are processing the data and feedback is very positive on it.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I very much welcome the DCU research team and particularly Professor O'Higgins Norman. It is fantastic to have the UNESCO chair on anti-bullying. Dr. Mazzone has presented to the committee previously and I have spoken to Mr. Heaney on the roll-out of the FUSE programme. I thank the witnesses for their work and their presentations as we begin our research into bullying. We have dealt with many groups. I thank the witnesses for the two detailed submissions they have made and I have a number of questions. The witnesses have recommended an audit on the action plan on bullying. Principals now have a mandate to go forward and allocate staff. The witnesses have pointed out that only 51% of schools have appointed a specific member of staff to investigate and tackle bullying in schools. Less than half of schools, 45%, have researched and identified a specific anti-bullying programme to use in the school. What would this audit look like?

My next question is for Dr. Mairéad Foody on the statistics. She mentioned a sample of 900 schools. What is the breakdown between primary and post-primary schools in the responses received and the statistics given? My next question is for Mr. Heaney as the operations manager. What is the role of the school board and parents' associations in what he has seen to date? My next question is on the roll-out. According to 2019 statistics, we have 3,242 primary schools and 723 post-primary schools. They cover more than 1 million students at primary and post-primary level. How will we roll this out quickly? I understand the witnesses have done great work but it is only with 127 schools. It is still wonderful but how do we reach all of these students with the FUSE programme?

Professor James O'Higgins Norman

The Senator's first question was to me on the audit. The audit we are speaking about is on the action plan itself at a national level. Its procedures were published in 2013 and they have not been updated since then. With regard to the research that informed them, we remember that at the time there was very deep consultation with all of the stakeholders. It took a lot of work to come up with the action plan and its procedures. Some people have asked for a new action plan or new procedures. Before we go down this road we believe it would be better to audit the national action plan to see how it measures up against more recent research and the latest in terms of international practice on whole education approaches, such as what was published by UNESCO last year. It would be a task for the Department to lead the audit, with support from ourselves and others, and see how it measures up today, the guts of ten years after it was first published.

Senator Aisling Dolan

How do we evaluate how we support schools to roll this out? From the sample that has been taken, schools have not been able to implement this and it has been in place since 2013. When Professor O'Higgins Norman says "audit", does he mean updating the strategy or is it an audit whereby we go out to the schools to evaluate whether they have put these measures in place and, if not, why not.

Professor James O'Higgins Norman

It is both. The audit is with regard to the document itself as a guiding document for how schools would tackle bullying and cyberbullying. As I also said, we recommend further fieldwork with principals to try to understand why schools would find it difficult to implement the action plan and procedures. There is a need for field work with schools as well as auditing the overall national document.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I thank Professor O'Higgins Norman. I will pose my final question to him also because perhaps it is most relevant and perhaps he has some ideas on it. How do we roll this out to more schools? Does Professor O'Higgins Norman have a response to this? Although 127 schools per year is excellent it will never meet the 4,500 primary and post-primary schools we have. How will this be done?

Professor James O'Higgins Norman

It is a huge task and it will need additional resources. The resources we have had to roll out the programme in its present form over the past two or three years have been considerable but we will need more resources to be able to do it across all schools. We can be smart about how we do this. We can arrange local committees. We can arrange it on a county-by-county basis with local co-ordinators. The thing to remember is what we are trying to do is bring about a change in the culture of schools and a change in how we understand bullying behaviour. It will take time and it will not be immediate. We need to plan for this and resource it appropriately.

Senator Aisling Dolan

In other words, would a regional approach be more suitable? DCU has the expert skillset but surely there is a need to roll it out so we have groups set up in regional areas to drive connecting with these schools. I do not see how it is feasible at the numbers that have been mentioned if we want to achieve this within the next three to four years.

Professor James O'Higgins Norman

If we take the Norwegian model as an example, Norway has regional educational authorities. Each educational authority has an action plan and a coordinator for implementing the national legislation and the action plan on bullying within a group of schools. Across the whole of Norway there are these regional committees which are coordinated centrally but have a local coordinator as well. If the policy is to be developed in a way that is sustainable within schools then it cannot be top-down from a centralised place and it must be resourced accordingly.

If it is okay I would like to kick that question over to my colleague, Dr. Alan Gorman, who can talk a bit more about how such a policy might be rolled out.

Chairman

I will ask Mr. Heaney as he had his hand up.

Mr. Darran Heaney

I thank the Chairman. On the involvement of the principals' and parents' associations, there is a commitment at the very start when schools register for the programme that they will deliver it, set up a committee and follow through with the resources and delivery. We also provide information for the principals to share with their boards of management about the school's participation in the programme. To clarify the numbers there, 30 of those schools were primary and we are in our first year of piloting the resources with primary. We wanted, therefore, to take a phased approach to double-check the resources were appropriate and that they worked and that how we were tackling it was appropriate. On the other schools which were post-primary, I reiterate what Professor O'Higgins Norman has just said on the regions. That is the way to broaden our reach across the whole country, including getting schools to work in clusters. The whole aim of the programme is to connect schools, parents and teachers but also to empower the schools to be able to meet what is set out in the policy, national action plan and procedures. It is therefore about providing them with support, resources and a toolkit to try to do that. Covid has been particularly good in the sense that we now have a lot of online options for training which has given us a broader reach across the country, which has been very helpful.

Dr. Alan Gorman

To link with what Professor O'Higgins Norman and Mr. Heaney said, there is also a real importance to building up capacity within schools through a range of programmes. It is not just about one specific programme but about looking at the range of supports we currently have in Ireland. An example would be building up leadership capacity, particularly for early-career principals, looking at the supports currently available to them through the Centre for School Leadership, through advisory bodies such as the Professional Development Service for Teachers, PDST, and the inspectorate as well. It is also about linking in with other key policy developments to supports schools, for example the Inclusive Education Framework developed by the National Council for Special Education. It is a very important policy document to support schools in that way. It is important that we are building up capacity within schools. It is top-down but as Professor O'Higgins Norman said it is bottom-up as well so schools have the agency to identify areas they need to work on and address those areas in relation to what they need in order to address bullying as well.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I thank the witnesses.

Chairman

Deputy Ó Ríordáin is not online. The next members up are Senator Flynn followed by Senator Pauline O'Reilly.

Senator Eileen Flynn

I thank the Chairman. I thank the witnesses for presenting to us today and for taking time out from their busy schedules to discuss this really important issue. I will not repeat what other members have said. I will keep it really short. I was really struck by what Professor O'Higgins Norman said about image and how research has shown a lot of children get bullied because of image. Is that because of the colour of a child's skin, for example? A lot of time people would look and say a child is a member of the Traveller community or that he or she is poor because he or she does not have the top-class runners other children in the class have. Thus I am wondering about the whole area of image and what was spoken about there.

Has there been any research around bullying done on the grounds of a child's ethnicity, culture or race? It is a similar question. I refer to research on cultural or racial discrimination with the purpose of identifying whether or not this type of bullying has different effects and impacts than personal bullying. While it is not nice to speak about, unfortunately this bullying can be carried out by teachers. It is absolutely necessary we develop studies on bullying. Will the witnesses speak to the committee about the research to date on racial bullying? It is not about blaming teachers, or anything of the sort, but unfortunately bullying can come from the adults in the room as well as the children there.

Again, I would be interested in hearing more around what was said about image. Is it the child with the cheap runners on his or her feet? Is it the trans child with short hair? That question can be for any of the witnesses. I thank them all so much for presenting to us today.

Professor James O'Higgins Norman

I thank the Senator. Does Dr. Foody want to take that question?

Dr. Mairéad Foody

Sure. Maybe the professor asked me to speak because I am one of the principal investigators on a project we ran recently. It has just completed at the anti-bullying centre. We looked at the experience of bullying among the Roma community in Ireland. There are many other examples where identity or culture might influence a child's likelihood of being a victim of bullying. The research we conducted, and our findings from that research, actually show it is not that straightforward. There are a lot of different things we need to consider, especially if we think about ethnic minority groups like the Roma or members of the Traveller community in Ireland. Classroom composition is important. How many other members of the Traveller community are in a child's class might also affect whether or not he or she is a victim. Social networks, having good leadership in the school and all those things influence it so we cannot really say that if a child is a member of one community he or she is more likely to be bullied. It is not so straightforward. What we can tell, and what the research is very clear on, is respect for diversity decreases bullying. If there is a school culture that is positive and that promotes, acknowledges and encourages diversity and difference then there will be less bullying. That is probably a better way to look at it than to think about who is highest risk and who is going to be a victim. It is more like asking how we can prevent everyone from being a victim of bullying.

Somebody else may want to jump in on the other questions.

Dr. Angela Mazzone

I thank the Senator for her question. I wanted to say something about her comment that sometimes teachers are involved in the phenomenon of discrimination. I have published research in recent years on bullying towards native and immigrant children and the reasons for bullying of native and immigrant children. We found that, according to the children's thinking, bullying towards migrant children is very much related to contextual factors, to stereotypes and prejudices that come from family, school, teachers and media. There is a process of learning prejudices and stereotypes concerning migrants which strongly affect bullying towards migrants. Interestingly, some of the children who were interviewed, who were first- and second-generation immigrant students, reported they experienced forms of discrimination from teachers as well and that sometimes teachers tended to underestimate their family background, and associated their national background with poverty and low skills and low school achievement. These findings suggest a whole educational approach very much needs to be adopted.

It is very much needed to tackle the phenomenon, by adopting whole-education approach, in the sense we need to educate children, teachers and the whole school system to diversity. I hope this answers the question.

Senator Eileen Flynn

That is perfect. I would extend it to children with additional special needs in the classroom or children with disabilities who are in mainstream school. Was there any research done around young people with additional special needs?

Professor James O'Higgins Norman

I see my colleague Dr. Keating wants to come in there as well. Research has been done. As Dr. Foody said, it is quite complicated in that being a member of an ethnic minority or having a special educational need does not mean you are more likely to be bullied, but the context around you can influence that. The more we can create schools which appreciate everyone is different and diversity is part of life and reflect that in our policies, curricula and syllabus, the better. It is important kids see themselves in textbooks, images and stories around the school. All of that makes a difference in terms of how included people feel. It is important we push that agenda. I will refer to my colleague, Dr. Keating.

Dr. Seline Keating

I think Professor O'Higgins Norman has said it for me in terms of having the curriculum in which there is inclusivity and those pupils can see themselves represented in the schoolbooks used in the classrooms and are celebrated and a culture of respect is promoted throughout the school ethos. That is key. Professor O'Higgins Norman highlighted the prevention mechanisms the school has in place. One key way to do that is through education and adopting a whole school community approach in which parents are involved in promoting respect and celebrating diversity. You have the home and school links, which are very important.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I thank the Chair and all of the guests today. As they will be aware, we have had quite extensive contributions from witnesses in previous weeks as well. I am interested to know if the witnesses have listened to those contributions and if they feel there are additional things we should be especially aware of coming out of today, which need to be a focus within a report and for us to get down to the granular detail of it.

Following on from Senator Flynn, with whom I sit on the Joint Committee on Key Issues affecting the Traveller Community committee and of which she is the Chair, what is interesting is we on that committee have done some training, facilitated by the Chair, on our own biases. I wonder if teachers across the board are doing that. In any workplace, that needs to be a feature, but here we are concerned with the education system. Much of what happens in schools is either a reflection of what is going on in the wider society or that the school system is not set up in a way which reflects the wider society. If biases exist in the adult world, they are likely to be replicated in the child's world. If they are not and if there is more happening in the schools, it is likely the school is not set up in a way which reflects adult society. Neither of those things is the correct approach.

With regard to respect for diversity and promoting diversity, that was a really interesting piece of research Dr. Foody had undertaken. What would that look like? I note the comments on practising Catholics in the witnesses' opening statement, which has not come up previously. What could be changed to make all of our schools more accommodating of those from different religious backgrounds?

It is concerning overall that schools are struggling to implement a plan. I want to put that on the record. It is concerning for us all. It is not just about identifying what more we can do and what changes in policy need to happen around bullying. However, the fundamental question is why are we failing in the education system even to put into place a plan which is there.

Professor James O'Higgins Norman

I will ask my colleague, Dr. Gorman, to reply to that, if that is okay.

Dr. Alan Gorman

With regard to the Senator's first question, within recent years and the reconceptualisation of initial teacher education in Ireland, in particular, there is a much stronger focus on the process of reflection and inquiry. Within that, higher education institutions are looking at engaging student teachers, in particular, in that area of challenging their hegemonic assumptions or beliefs and looking at the pedagogy of discomfort and having those uncomfortable questions around that. It proves to be a very interesting experience with student teachers.

Interestingly, that has been called for, especially for principals or teachers moving into the role of principalships within schools, in terms of the notion of leadership and leading an inclusive school. Their understanding of inclusion and what an inclusive school is, is important, as is looking at those hegemonic assumptions or beliefs which the Senator has discussed.

It comes back to the point I raised previously in terms of the role. It is very important those agencies, such as the centre for school leadership and the professional development service for teachers, PDST, support early-career principals and continue to engage in that kind of critical dialogue mentioned. It should remain a policy priority at initial teacher education, ITE, and induction levels and within continuing professional development, CPD. There is promise with Cosán, the Teaching Council's policy on professional development, which is still in a consultative process but there is promise there. That should be included within that as well.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I will come back in to reiterate a couple of the other points on promoting diversity in general, in terms of what more can be done, and on the specific reference made. It would be remiss of us not to mention the specific reference made to practising Catholics and what can be done, not just for that area but around identity. We have not examined that previously on this committee.

Professor James O'Higgins Norman

I apologise. I meant to answer that question already. It links with what has been said by my colleague, Dr. Gorman, about schools having hegemonic cultures, in terms of a set of assumptions about everybody and the way people will live their lives. We are in a particular place in our society in which we have become more pluralist. Things have changed and it is no surprise people who practise religion, and maybe practise the Catholic religion, are increasingly in the minority, especially young children and teenagers in schools.

One of the studies we has done recently has shown a concern among religion teachers about what they are observing among students who are practising Catholics and are being targeted for that, more than a concern about kids who are not practising a religion. That is coming through now and sits well with international research on that, in that when a particular world view or religion has had a dominant position in society and that changes, it often results in those who adhere to that being targeted and being seen as old-fashioned or out of the mainstream culture. With bullying, when people are seen to be different, they often stand out and are more likely to be targeted when it comes to bullying.

In terms of addressing that, we need to promote in our schools an idea of the understanding of difference, that difference is the norm, no two people are the same. All our teacher training, continuing professional development, and curricula across the whole school programme must be linked to the understanding of a human being, where we understand that difference is a good thing and that we appreciate that. That calls for the need to look at what we teach, the way we teach and who is teaching in our schools, and the assumptions that underline all of that. Dr. Keating might like to come in on that.

Dr. Seline Keating

A project I recently completed, entitled the Gender Equality Matters project, looked at tackling gender stereotyping, gender-based bullying and violence in schools. The project was quite successful in schools across Europe. The reason behind this success was that it was embedded in already existing school curriculum and policy. It addressed workload issues and curriculum overload as well. When one goes down the route of promoting respect and celebrating diversity, it is important that it is done in the school culture and fitted into and embedded within the existing school curriculum, so that teachers will have more confidence when delivering sensitive topics. What was key to that project was giving both teachers and parents the skill sets to have these conversations with their children and to teach these topics in the classroom context. Many teachers found that, prior to this, they shied away from teaching sensitive topics. Giving them the skills to teach and address these issues in the classroom is very important. That was achieved through the Gender Equality Matters project.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank the guests for coming before the committee this afternoon and for the submissions given to us. I will start by asking Dr. Foody a question. I am conscious that everything we do must be guided by research and I was interested in and pleased to hear about the research Dr. Foody has conducted. Can she outline for the committee what she believes are the trigger points or catalysts that, at present, give rise to a child in school becoming a bully? Is it the pressures he or she is under at home? Is it based on differences? What is her assessment of this? I know it is a broad question but I would appreciate an attempted answer.

Dr. Mairéad Foody

If we knew the answer to that, we would have it all solved. There is much research on why people bully or why people are victims. The reasons are quite varied and there is no straight answer. Dr. Mazzone would know more about traditional bullying literature and how people become a victim or are victimised in different settings. I will let her answer. In terms of research from Ireland, it depends on what one is talking about. It depends on whether children have family supports, whether they are already vulnerable or being supported. Is it that bullying happens once and that is it, or is it something that happens for a long time? Perhaps Dr. Mazzone would like to give her input. In answer to the question, I do not know.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Okay. That is fine.

Dr. Angela Mazzone

I think Deputy O'Callaghan's question was more in relation to diversity. He asked about bullying perpetration in relation to diversity, if I understood correctly. I am not sure. What is the Deputy asking about?

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

My question was broader than that. I assume diversity can be a catalyst for bullying. Kids sometimes see differences and may feel threatened by that. What are the other factors in Dr. Mazzone's assessment that give rise to bullying?

Dr. Angela Mazzone

One of the main issues I investigated in my PhD was morality. In particular, my PhD was focused on moral disengagement which is the tendency to justify immoral behaviours. Children who bully their peers show high levels of moral disengagement. The tendency to justify immoral conduct is socialised within the peer groups. We know from the research that in classrooms where there is a high tendency to collectively morally disengage, children bully their peers more - in other words, children tend to justify bullying. They think it is something that is admissible and tolerated. They also tend to put the blame on the target for having provoked the bullying. Morality is one of the components that is associated with bullying perpetration. There are also some variables related to family functioning. In dysfunctional families, for instance, in families with low levels of cohesion and communication, children are more likely to bully their peers. This is also based on some of my research findings. I suggest we need to focus on both individual and contextual factors to understand the causes of bullying perpetration.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

What Dr. Mazzone said about families is something which has been repeated to us on previous occasions by individuals before this committee. I wish to ask Professor O'Higgins Norman and Dr. Gorman about the culture of schools. We repeatedly hear from guests who come before the committee about the importance of schools having a strong culture that does not tolerate bullying and that promotes good treatment of students by all persons in the school. What can this committee do to assist schools to mould and develop that type of culture? How can that culture be developed in schools?

Dr. Alan Gorman

Over recent years, there has been a significant policy drive in schools. Schools and principals, in particular, are dealing with competing policy agendas in their role. It is important that schools are afforded the time to engage with meaningful professional development. I emphasise that there should be school-based professional development available in order to build a positive school culture. This would look at elements of the school that are working and areas that might need to be addressed.

I refer to the point made about school leaders. Schools should be equipped with understanding what inclusion is and it should not be just a one-off workshop. They should be equipped with the knowledge of how to lead an inclusive school. We must also look at the work done on policy over recent years, coming back to the point I raised. There are many policies that speak to one and other, if one were to sit down and look at them. In looking at our schools, take, for example, the inspectorate's framework for school self-evaluation. That promotes a positive school culture, as does the inclusive education framework, by way of another example. Principals need to be encouraged to look at those policies and support them. Most importantly, they should be provided with the time to engage in professional collaboration, which is meaningful school-based professional development, in order to build a positive school culture that promotes inclusion as well.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I am conscious that Dr. Keating mentioned about the research she is going into gender-based bullying. Does she have any view as to whether or not the proliferation of pornography on the internet has had an impact on the attitude that boys have towards women and girls, and whether that has, in any way, contributed to what one may perceive as an increase in gender-based bullying?

Dr. Seline Keating

That element did not come up in my research. The research I did focused on children aged ten to 12. I think Dr. Foody has done some research in that area. She might be best placed to answer Deputy O'Callaghan's question about pornography and its impact.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I do not know whether Dr. Foody has anything to contribute on that issue.

Dr. Mairéad Foody

No. I will not talk about research I have not conducted. We have not looked at pornography use and cyberbullying or bullying, so I cannot speak to that point.

Chairman

Professor O'Higgins Norman wanted to say something.

Professor James O'Higgins Norman

Yes. I was going to say that we have not conducted our own research on that topic. However, in gaming, for example, where young people are online playing games, it is not so much even the content of the games but rather some of the behaviour of the people who play games and the way in which they relate to women and talk about females within gaming. The research has shown that that and the perception of misogyny and sexism that comes across on gaming platforms can be quite negative. One statistic I found was that if you speak with a female voice when playing an online game, you are three times more likely to receive negative comments and harassment. That is very much linked to how females are perceived in that space, so there is more work to be done there.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I agree with that.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I thank all the speakers for the quality and depth of their presentation. As we are so far into the topic of bullying, we can really begin to delve into specific items and tease things apart. I do not intend to go over much of the ground that has been covered already. I had a look at the UNESCO report, Behind the Numbers: Ending School Violence and Bullying, and I want to talk a little about some of the trends it points out. It suggests that bullying as a behaviour, in general, is decreasing. I am interested in asking about that in the context of the quality of our longitudinal data. School bullying has been a touchstone issue for a decade at least, but our information, if we try to step further back in time than that, is probably of lesser quality. I want to give the witnesses an opportunity to comment on that.

As for the prevalence of different types of bullying, it appears, at least from the UNESCO report, that instances of physical bullying are decreasing. The report mentions that the number has decreased in almost half of countries and territories. Could the witnesses comment on the Irish-specific context of this? It is a recurring theme through this unit of work that a lot of bullying has moved online, has become cyberbullying and now has become image-based bullying because of the pressures of Instagram, etc.

I am very interested in Professor O'Higgins Norman's last comment. Anecdotally, it seems misogyny has now gone to the online space. It is hidden under the rock of the online space. I would like some insight from the experts here on those trends we find within bullying. Are we looking at something that is psychologically based, delivered over the medium of online behaviours? Are we seeing a move away from the more commonplace, old-style understanding of school bullying?

Professor James O'Higgins Norman

Does Dr. Foody want to come in on the data relating to online and offline bullying?

Dr. Mairéad Foody

I will try to answer all the questions. Yes, internationally, the literature shows that we have seen a small reduction in what we might call traditional or offline bullying. That is probably as a result of the increased awareness that young people as well as adults have of what bullying is, what constitutes bullying and the harms of bullying. That is definitely in contrast, like the Deputy said, to the literature or research that was conducted earlier, in the past 20 years or so, when we did not even know what bullying was or what we were talking about. Now it is clear that everyone recognises that there are very severe, long-term negative effects of bullying. That is one of the reasons. There are also increased amounts of money and time put into anti-bullying programmes, which are working in some cases.

Apart from that, it is important to say that, according to at least the Irish data and a lot of the international data, traditional and offline bullying is still more prevalent than online bullying, so the former is still there and has not gone away. We just have to look at human nature, and even adults and workplaces, to know that it probably will not go away, but we are looking for it to be at least reduced further with the work we do.

On the cyberbullying side of things, Dr. Mazzone might want to comment on some of her work. Cyberbullying, as I said, is not as prevalent as traditional bullying but its impact can be more severe in some cases. One incident of cyberbullying might be enough for somebody to feel so isolated and alone that his or her mental health comes under severe pressure, whereas offline bullying might continue for a little more time before that person would need to seek help. The face of cyberbullying is changing because we have so many different apps, devices, methods and means, including photos and videos, to cyberbully or to harm somebody, so that is an ever-evolving space. Again, however, in general it is considered less prevalent than offline bullying. Even on that point, though, it is really important we do not focus too much on these distinctions because young people are usually victims in both spaces or bullying in both spaces and are often in both spaces at the same time. They might be online and offline talking to their friends at the exact same time, so even trying to distinguish between how prevalent bullying is in one area or one space as opposed to another is kind of futile. We have these prevalence rates in order that we can look at the impact of our interventions, but it is really important we just think about victimisation, whatever its shape, and the impact of it, whether it happens online, offline or both. We are just concerned with young people's experiences.

I do not know whether anyone else wants to speak about prevalence or anything else. Have I answered Deputy Ó Cathasaigh's questions?

Dr. Angela Mazzone

I have just a brief comment in response to Deputy Ó Cathasaigh's observation that instances of physical forms of bullying are tending to decrease, based on the UNESCO report. Of course that is an encouraging result but, at the same time, we need to keep in mind that the older children become, the more they use subtle forms of bullying, that is, relational forms of bullying such as rumours and gossip. In addition, there is qualitative research showing that children tend to trivialise bullying. Oftentimes they do not react when bullying happens because they are used to a certain type of language, which is offensive and harmful to some targeted children. My point is that bullying can take subtle forms. Of course it is a good and an encouraging result that instances of physical forms of bullying are tending to decrease thanks to the whole education approach but, at the same time, we need to address and raise awareness of subtle forms of bullying.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I will preface it by saying I do not think there is a level of bullying we should accept within our society. Seeing as the witnesses' presentation was one of the few presentations we have had that has had that international context because of the involvement with UNESCO, I want to ask a question that reflects that international context as to where Ireland sits in terms of the prevalence of bullying, the prevalence of different forms of bullying and our success or lack of it in tackling bullying. The obvious add-on question is this: wherever we sit, is there some place we should look to that is doing a really good job of tackling bullying?

Professor James O'Higgins Norman

Does Dr. Mazzone want to answer that question?

Dr. Angela Mazzone

Yes. According to the findings of international reports, Ireland has rates of bullying comparable with those of western countries like Italy or, I think, Sweden and Norway, so the situation in Ireland is not too bad. I think there are more recent findings, however. I cannot remember the name of a report published recently.

Professor O'Higgins Norman might help me with the name.

Professor James O'Higgins Norman

Is it the Health Protection Surveillance Centre, HPSC, report?

Dr. Angela Mazzone

Yes, I am sorry, but I could not remember the initialism. The findings of this international report in respect of Ireland show that bullying actually increased in 2018, the period to which the data refers. Of course, the methods of assessment matter. Depending on the methods that we use to assess bullying, we can find variations. I am sorry I do not remember the exact rate of bullying perpetration and victimisation reported in this report, but I am happy to share the findings with the committee afterwards.

Chairman

I thank Dr. Mazzone. Deputy Ó Cathasaigh has about 30 seconds left if he wants to come in.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

No, that is fine. The answers were very comprehensive. I thank the witnesses.

Senator Rónán Mullen

I welcome the experts and witnesses. It is great to have them with us. I thank them for their insights and for sharing their expertise. There are many questions I could ask, but it would not be fair to expect that there would be research available that would answer everyone. Following on from what Deputy Ó Cathasaigh asked about where Ireland stands relative to other countries, a question Dr. Mazzone answered pretty comprehensively, what do we know, if anything, about the shape of our school system? Much is made, for example, about school patronage and the fact that the majority of school patronage is in Catholic hands, as it were, even though society has changed and there is a need for more diversity in the future. I think everybody agrees about that, but some sought to put in issue the question of whether faith-based patronage is a part of the problem in the context of bullying. I hope the Christian tradition in particular would be a culture that would seek to counter bullying. I have asked about that in the past. Last week, Professor Hymel referred in passing to the decline of faith as perhaps a contributor to the problem of moral disengagement, which is a phrase used by either Dr. Mazzone or Dr. Keating. What do we know about school form or ethos? Is there any information as to how that helps or hinders the fight against bullying?

Professor James O'Higgins Norman

I suppose the operative ethos of a school is an important part of how people experience school. There has not been a huge amount of recent research on that topic. There was a glut of it about 15 years ago and everybody was very concerned about it, including me, but there has not been a lot on that in recent years. I will go back to what we were talking about earlier about the school sitting within the whole of society and the whole education approach, where we look at the school as being influenced by society and sometimes not quite catching up with where society is or not reflecting the beliefs of parents or vice versa. School culture definitely has a role to play in bullying. Dr. Mazzone and Dr. Gorman will now chip in and say something about that.

Dr. Alan Gorman

I thank Senator Mullen for his question. What we hope to explore in the centre, in particular in the next 12 months, is the opportunity to engage with schools. Professor O'Higgins Norman mentioned the need to engage in deep, qualitative research with principals in schools. In the research, we want to draw on a range of schools and school contexts to include denominational schools, multi-denominational schools and Gaelscoileanna and explore the perspectives and the challenges principals are meeting individually in terms of leading the schools. We hope we will gain more insights into that in the research in the next 12 months in particular. It is a very interesting question.

Senator Rónán Mullen

If nobody else wants to respond, I might follow on by saying that I was fascinated by what we heard in the opening statements. Many people would have been unaware that there seems to be evidence in that regard. Practising Catholics are mentioned specifically. I am not surprised by that because I heard anecdotal reports about children who dared to go against the cultural grain in school on big sociopolitical issues feeling the heat from their classmates, often, ironically, in faith-based schools. It seems that minorities are always in the line of fire for bullying. Today's minority is not the same as yesterday's and, as a result, there is a constant need to upgrade our thinking. Do the witnesses have any views on whether a hegemonic media culture that could be seen as hostile to religion could be part of the problem in creating a context where bullying now occurs?

Professor James O'Higgins Norman

Exactly as Senator Mullen has already said very well, the predominant peer culture among children and adolescents in schools is influenced by their families and parents, wider media and so on. In our current context, those who are going against the grain are standing out and they will then be more likely to be targets for bullying whether that is for religious or other reasons. Fifteen or 20 years ago we were talking about homophobic bullying and how it was a focus of bullying in schools and a great concern for everyone and now today here we are talking about the possibility that children who practise a religion might be the ones who are targeted for bullying. As Senator Mullen said, the situation changes and moves. There is something fundamental underneath all of that which we must address in terms of the implementation of an inclusion and diversity policy and curricula that promote inclusion, whether it is somebody who is practising a religion or somebody who is not or whatever other diversity issue might be involved.

Senator Rónán Mullen

In a society where there is so much evidence on identity and where there is conflict around identity, specifically racial identity such as, for example, Black Lives Matter, BLM, and all of that activity going on, is there a case to be made that when we talk about bullying, if we focus too much on individual identity, we might end up privileging one category who deserve our support, including in combating bullying, over other categories whose claims might not resonate so strongly? Is there an argument that there should be a greater focus on the fundamental problem of bullying, which is the abuse of a power relationship? Is it possible that the label of bullying is not as important as the underlying negative attitude that causes the person to bully?

Professor James O'Higgins Norman

I suppose, fundamentally, bullying is an absence of care. If there are people in the school system who do not feel cared for or represented, which, in a sense, makes them feel not cared for, then there is an issue for us to address. Sometimes we need to name a specific identity or type of bullying in order to make sure those people feel included and cared for. The overall point is that if we can have more kindness in schools and we can have that modelled by teachers, parents and the wider community, then bullying would decrease and we would not need to be so concerned about specific identities. However, those identities have a whole political agenda behind them in society. There is a concern that we will get lost in all of that, but at the heart of it is the need to have more care and more kindness in schools. If we have that, then the individual identity should not be as much of an issue as the overall experience of being included and feeling cared for.

Senator Rónán Mullen

I thank Dr. O'Higgins Norman. Love your neighbour as yourself does not seem like such a bad starting point.

If I have time, I wish to ask about cyberbullying. There had been a lot of talk about helping children to be resilient in terms of understanding what is happening to them when they are experiencing bulling. I am also concerned, however, about whether we are doing enough to encourage people to push back against bullying, obviously not in a violent way, but to develop a strength to help children to be agents in combating the negative treatment they experience. Is there room for doing more in that regard?

Given the significant challenges and opportunities posed by the much greater availability of technology in people’s lives, is there something to be said for trying to offer education and support to parents before their children ever go to school, to encourage them to have the strengths to make decisions about children not having technology of certain kinds too soon in their lives, for example, or not having access to technology in their bedrooms too late at night? Are we sometimes a little disinclined to exhort good behaviours over bad behaviours when it comes to the kind of things that might be contributory causes to children's vulnerability?

Dr. Angela Mazzone

I can address the question about using strategies. The Senator mentioned children using their cell phones in their bedrooms at night. What we know from research is that parental mediation strategies, which are the strategies that parents use to deal with children's usage of technology, should be consistent in the sense that parents should give clear and precise rules and should follow up on those rules. When parents’ strategies are consistent, children are less likely to be involved in risky behaviours and in cyberbullying. There is probably no magic recipe for parents but it is more about using consistent strategies and being coherent.

Perhaps someone else would like to address the other question.

Dr. Mairéad Foody

On the point about resilience and whether we should be asking children to do a little more and maybe to stand up to bullies, I am not sure exactly what the Senator meant.

Senator Rónán Mullen

I meant helping them with the skills to do it.

Dr. Mairéad Foody

That is something we have talked about in the centre quite a lot. The literature is quite divided. One of the things we know from the most recent literature is that we have to be very careful when we ask children to be responsible for stopping the bullying themselves. We do not want them to feel that they have an extra pressure, in that they are already victims and, now, it is also on them to stop the bullying. That is a big ask for young kids. There is also this idea that, “Oh, they are resilient”. There are certainly things we can do to develop resilience but not every child would be resilient in the same scenario or in the same way, so we also have to be careful about how we use that term.

If we want to get them to a place where they can deal with bullying, we need to talk about telling and reporting, and about ways they can identify when it is happening, being a good bystander and all of these other things that will also influence bullying rates and attitudes for other children as well. It is things we can do with all the kids, not just victims, and that we work on things like empathy, being good bystanders and making sure they have the capacity to report and tell when it is happening to them.

On the other point about parents, in addition to what Dr. Mazzone said, namely, that we do the same thing, we also need to be a good role models as parents. We need to ask our children to be empathetic online and offline and make sure they are responsible digital citizens. Therefore, whatever way, shape or form that takes, we are recognising that if we see something online that we do not like, we feel a sense of responsibility for dealing with that as well. That could be one way that parents could mediate or try to influence cyberbullying, by talking to their kids about it and taking responsible actions, even if they are not the victim or the bully. I hope that answers the question.

Senator Rónán Mullen

Yes, it does. I thank all the witnesses.

Dr. Seline Keating

I wanted to add to what Dr. Foody said about developing empathy skills with children and young people so they are aware of the consequences of the decisions they make and the responsibility they have when they are navigating online tools, especially social media, and the potential impact it can have on another person. That includes having activities with children and young people where they can explore walking in the shoes of a bystander and what they could do, walking in the shoes of a bully and what they could do, and walking in the shoes of the victim and what they could do. Drawing on Olweus’s research on the bullying circle, it includes being aware that standing up to bullying does not ever mean putting yourself in danger, and it can be telling someone and knowing those potentially five trusted adults who they could tell, who can intervene and help with what they are witnessing, such as a teacher, a principal or a parent.

Senator Fiona O'Loughlin

I thank the witnesses for their insight and their expertise. They do wonderful work and it is appreciated and valued. My apologies, I had to come off the call for a short period to go to another meeting, but I feel I have a very good sense of this and I have, of course, read the submissions.

I have a few general questions, and a lot of that is based on some of the findings we have heard and received from other witnesses in regard to this very important issue. I will go into them quickly and put them all together, and the witnesses can then respond.

We have heard that the 2003 anti-bullying policy needs to be completely updated. An interesting comment was made at last week's meeting that we need to change the language around that, and instead of saying "anti-bullying", we need to couch it in very positive and proactive terms. I thought that was a very good point and I would be interested to hear the witnesses’ views.

It would seem that a problem with that policy is that it is more or less saying to schools they need to have a policy but is not very clear what those policies should be. I had not realised until this meeting that only 51% of schools had actually complied. I am quite surprised to hear that.

There were differing views as to whether there should be a database in regard to school bullying incidents and the type of incidents, and whether tracking these incidents and how they are dealt with should be done on a national basis. I would be interested to hear the witnesses’ views.

With regard to the question of a roadmap, it has been very clear from the witnesses we have heard that we need to have a very clear roadmap. There seem to be a lot of very good tools that are being used in different schools but it is a case of never the twain shall meet. Many very good practices are being carried out and, for example, the ETB schools have a very specific policy. A number of schools are also doing restorative practice. I have spoken to a few principals about that and it certainly seems to be excellent in terms of dealing with the perpetrators, as well as the victims, and, of course, the bystanders.

I want to mention three other areas. In the context of appointing an online safety commissioner, Senator Mullen spoke about cyberbullying. There is certainly a belief that an online safety commissioner would play a very important role in that area.

Particularly since Covid, there has been a bigger conversation about education, what the importance of education is and a possible steer away from having just academic learning towards having a well-rounded, holistic young person at the end of that, who is enabled to have a broader lifestyle and broader life skills. It even goes back to what Professor O'Higgins Norman was saying about being kind, just taking that moment to think about being kind and showing respect.

Finally, what is the role of the parent in collaboration with the school in dealing with bullying activity?

Professor James O'Higgins Norman

I will address some of those points and some of my colleagues might like to pitch in. On anti-bullying language, there is much disagreement internationally in this field. By calling it "anti-bullying", it is making a clear statement against bullying, which drives the work in that direction, but that is defining it negatively. There is much debate on that and there are good points on both sides. The bottom line is about trying to create an atmosphere and a reality where people do not experience bullying in schools or online.

The figure of 51% of schools relates to those that have implemented a local programme to tackle bullying. All the schools in our research have policies in place, that is, they have all taken their lead from the national action plan on bullying and implemented a local policy. The next step was to implement an anti-bullying programme in their schools and only about one half of schools had reported they were able to do that. I personally believe there should be a database on which we track the level of bullying in the country, which goes back to a question one of the other members raised earlier. Having good-quality data allows us to make informed decisions about the initiatives we use and how effective they are, so I very much support beginning to do that and building those data.

On the roadmap, the international research suggests there is not a one-size-fits-all programme or approach to tackling bullying. Schools need to be able to draw down on resources of use to them, depending on what they are dealing with locally. A programme such as the FUSE programme we offer, for example, provides schools with a programme of resources and an approach, and they are then able to adapt that and use it locally. The effectiveness of saying to every school that it must do a particular programme at such a time in such a way is not always proven. The one-size-fits-all approach is something I am cautious about.

The online safety commissioner is really important, although the role still needs to be worked out. It is my understanding it will not be possible to make individual complaints or reports through the commissioner’s office, which will be disappointing for people looking for somewhere to go when they feel there is nowhere else for them to go and they have tried everything else in regard to reporting the problem or seeking help with online safety issues.

As for a well-rounded education, Dr. Keating will talk about how the overall curriculums, including the social, personal and health education, SPHE, curriculum and so on, sit alongside the anti-bullying work we do. The role of the parent is the key, going back to Senator Mullen's point. We need to help parents such that they will feel strong and confident and have a purpose to the way in which they educate their children about bullying, both offline and online, and be able to do that in a consistent and confident way.

I might hand over to Dr. Foody to comment further.

Dr. Mairéad Foody

To follow up on the point about principals and the national action plan, that was research we conducted at the centre in which we assessed the work of principals in Ireland. There were more than 900 respondents, so while it was not every principal, it was a good sample. As Professor O'Higgins Norman said, that figure of 51% we talked about meant that 51% had not appointed a specific member of staff to deal with bullying cases in their school, but there were many very positive findings from the study. Almost every school, or 99% of them, has a policy and all the principals recognised the impact of bullying on school attendance, academic achievement and mental health. We are cautious in regard to being negative about the work that needs to be done on the procedures because principals are used to them and there is much good stuff in there.

The main finding from the work was that principals had not identified a specific anti-bullying programme. That study and other Irish studies, including one by Corcoran and McGuckin in 2014, have found that what principals in Ireland wanted above all was support in resourcing and finding materials related to bullying and to be told by the Department what intervention they should run and what steps they should take. They are seeking more support. They are doing everything in their power in terms of their policies. Our results show that perhaps assigning a specific member of staff might help.

On the point about tracking, that is a good idea and it is one place principals could start if they were given support with somehow being able to assess the level of bullying in their own school confidentially in order that they would not be afraid those data would be available or would influence their attendance rates, for example. They should also be given support in specific areas, if they need it, for it to be reduced, and that is something the FUSE programme could fit into.

A number of member raised this research. To clarify, it related to 900 principals from primary and post-primary - mainly the former - and covered both DEIS and non-DEIS schools. There was no difference in their responses depending on school type. In general, the responses were the same, irrespective of level or school type.

Mr. Darran Heaney

The language within the policy itself is important and it should be made accessible for parents and students. The Senator asked about parents and how they can contribute. There should be a consultation with parents on policy and how it is being developed, rather than it being something they might download from the website when there is an issue, in order that they will feel they are being brought along in the process.

On interventions, it is important for schools to evaluate their incidence of bullying and respond to that with the most appropriate intervention that will tackle the specific needs in their school. I have found from my engagement with schools that that is often where they struggle, unsure of the best intervention to use. It is important to acknowledge that many schools are doing really well. A forum or other way for them to share with other schools what they are doing well, in order that they can learn in a community-practised type of approach, would be very useful as well.

Dr. Alan Gorman

In the context of this discussion about leadership and roles and responsibilities in schools, it is important that the policy continue to endorse distributed leadership, that it be a shared vision and that there be collective responsibility throughout the school in regard to this. The danger is that if one person takes sole responsibility, it may leave only that person wearing that hat. What we should be looking for is a more distributed leadership, and that has been very much endorsed in policy in recent years, particularly in the area of educational leadership.

Chairman

I have one or two questions before we wrap up. Children’s use of technology has become much more prevalent and there are many different social media platforms. I have heard frightening stories of children in fourth and fifth class using Snapchat, Facebook and many other platforms. One question I have asked every guest before the committee in recent weeks relates to how to educate parents and get into their minds. A steady stream at all the meetings suggests that often the parents who need to be got to are the ones who will not listen, attend meetings, inform themselves, communicate with the school or get involved in it.

The million dollar question is how to get those parents involved. How should we communicate with them? How can we get a commitment from them? How can we inform them of the dangers of social media? Dr. Foody spoke about parents' sense of responsibility. Everyone who brings a child into the world has a responsibility to do their best for that child. Many parents are not doing their best for their children while allowing them on some of the terrible social media platforms that are meant for adults. Children as young as nine, ten, 11 and 12 are using them. They are not just using them after school, but sometimes up to 2 a.m. or 3 a.m. Parents are allowing their children on these dangerous social media platforms until that hour of the morning unsupervised. They do not know whom they are communicating with.

If the witnesses had responsibility in the Department of Education tomorrow, what additional supports would they give to primary and post-primary schools to assist the principals and teachers to support the pupils through the bullying and other difficulties they experience?

Dr. Seline Keating

I will answer the second question. If I were to wave my magic wand, I would give every primary and secondary school in Ireland an audit tool to assess the effectiveness of their policy every year. This would comply with the existing oversight management which is outlined in the Department of Education procedures for schools. It would highlight to schools what they are doing well. We do not want to come across as telling schools precisely what they should be doing. Schools need to understand what great work they are already doing and how to build on that work. They should assess their policy annually and include every staff member, the caretaker, the school secretary and anyone who may potentially witness bullying behaviours in the school. They need to be aware and have a voice so they know what to do. If those data were centralised, it could feed into annual reports highlighting areas where schools are struggling and areas in which schools are succeeding. That can assist in putting supports in place the following year.

Chairman

My first question related to how to inform and collaborate with parents.

Dr. Angela Mazzone

The lack of engagement from some parents might be linked to them being unaware of bullying and cyberbullying and the effects of this behaviour. They might tend to underestimate the phenomenon and believe it is not their children's problem. A first step we could take to engage with these parents would be to raise awareness of the danger of cyberbullying and the importance of setting clear rules on the use of technology.

Chairman

I agree with Professor O'Higgins Norman's views on the online safety commissioner. How could an online safety commissioner be empowered to tackle cyberbullying? Are social media companies doing enough to tackle bullying on their platforms? This has been the subject of major debate at the committee in recent weeks. I believe the policies of social media companies are not strong enough. I believe the Government is not doing enough to tackle these social media companies and should be doing more. I have heard some absolute horror stories, some of which have resulted in suicide by youngsters, some of them in their teens because of ongoing online bullying. Somebody needs to take this by the scruff of the neck. I hope that the proposed online safety commissioner will be given the power to do that.

Investment by social media companies here in Ireland contributes a considerable amount. However, we should not be afraid to take them on, given that they are causing such harm. Social media can be very positive, but there is also much negativity about it. I feel sorry for some kids growing up. When I was going to school, both primary and secondary, bullying happened within the school. Now it goes far beyond that and comes right into the home and into a child's bedroom. It is a dangerous tool if it is not used correctly.

I would be interested in hearing Professor O'Higgins Norman's views on the online safety commissioner. What sorts of powers should the commissioner have in various areas particularly in tackling cyberbullying?

Professor James O'Higgins Norman

Social media refers to many organisations and companies. Some of them are extremely small and are providing apps that kids can download very quickly to their phones without their parents realising the full implications of them. It also refers to enormous corporations, such as Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat and so on. In recent years I have seen greater engagement by some of those and not so much by others in trying to deal with online safety. Any of the companies we have worked with are very anxious to try to address these problems. They often look to us for solutions, help and advice.

I think things are getting better. Everyone agrees that more needs to be done. We also need to recognise that the behaviour that makes its way onto these platforms is human behaviour that exists without the platforms. I am not so sure we can say the platforms cause it. For example, some of the research that looks at gaming shows that there is very little in online games that causes or produces negative behaviour, but the way people behave in those games, the way they speak to one another and the way they relate to one another can be really horrible at times. This comes back to being a human behaviour that needs to be addressed. Whether it is expressed on social media or elsewhere, it is a problem.

The online safety commissioner's role must be to make it as easy as possible for people to have some place to go if they have a problem. As I said earlier, at the moment there is considerable development in artificial intelligence, AI, to address some of these issues. However, AI can only do so much. Education and regulation are the way forward. People need to feel they have some kind of recourse to the online safety commissioner when everything else fails. Before that, we need to have education and have people using these facilities in a different way from how they have been using them.

The Chairman also asked what we would do if we had a magic wand. Regarding resources for schools, as someone said earlier, time is getting squeezed out of our schools. Every day there is increasingly less time to think and to do things that are really meaningful because teachers, parents and everyone in the school are under so much pressure. If we had a way to give schools a bit of time, maybe cover for substitutes to allow teachers to take up continuing professional development and making time available in that way, it would be really important. There is also a role for the school inspectorate in the whole-school evaluation and looking at how schools are handling bullying and cyberbullying issues within schools, particularly educating teachers about the fullness of their role.

Chairman

At one of our meetings someone spoke about the curriculum at primary and secondary schools to allow for more physical exercise for pupils. What are the witnesses' views on the importance of physical exercise for mental health and various reasons? The curriculum is so packed. We cannot extend the school week but should we extend the school day? I am not sure whose area of responsibility this might be. Is there too much in the curriculum?

Dr. Seline Keating

Physical activity is very good for promoting mental health. It is also really important to look at the broader picture and the holistic development of the child. The physical element is just one component. My area is social, personal and health education, SPHE, and I think there should be more time on it in initial teacher education and the school curriculum. At primary level it is only 30 minutes per week. That is where the life skills take place, the decision making, feelings and emotions and how to manage and regulate them and how pupils learn to cope with scenarios they may face. It also includes media education. It is very challenging for teachers to deliver meaningful lessons in a 30 minute slot. There can be a tendency, as research has shown, that where classes run over time in other subject areas, SPHE is often the subject that gets missed out on. The review of primary and post-primary has included significant redevelopments in valuing SPHE. This is clear in this year's revised version of the well-being programme for junior cycle and the National Council for Curriculum Assessment, NCCA, draft primary school framework in 2020. There is now a focus on well-being as a subject area. From junior infants to third class, the well-being umbrellas includes SPHE and PE. Both go hand in hand to promote the well-being of the child.

Dr. Alan Gorman

To link in with what my colleague Dr. Keating said and returning to the Chair's question on the magic wand, the Department has had a very strong focus on subscribing to a measurable standards agenda in education policy, particularly looking at attainment levels in literacy and numeracy. While that is important there is a danger that there can be a preoccupation with measurable outcomes such as standardised testing. The consequence can be a narrow focus on the curriculum and then looking at practices such as ability grouping and streaming. That can have an impact on children and on their learning in the school environment too. We should be mindful of the holistic development and the holistic curriculum into the future and that we do not focus on narrow attainment levels in future curriculum development or redesign.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I add my voice to some of what was said about social media companies and the requirement that they step up and that we would make them do so. They are all pervasive and therefore so is cyberbullying. There is no escaping it or down time from it. It can be difficult to monitor what your kids do on social media, particularly as they get older, and there will always be a difficulty there.

Returning to the metrics and incidents being recorded and a school making its best case scenario intervention, in some cases this will involve families that have added vulnerabilities and difficulties. When we talk about acting holistically, we probably have to think beyond bullying. We fail miserably to carry out these early interventions that would be a hell of a lot cheaper and easier and could give supports to families or, in really bad situations, go nuclear quicker by removing children more quickly from bad situations. We pay for that in the sense of bullying but also people entering into mental health service or the justice system. It is really terrible and has an impact and a huge cost. I am interested in the wider question of how this fits in. We talk about a community answer which will have to include the schools but it probably has to be more holistic than dealing with bullying in a silo.

Professor James O'Higgins Norman

Absolutely. UNESCO's whole education approach locates the school within the wider societal issues. We must always be cognisant that every child comes from a family and a community where there may be additional vulnerabilities and they will compound the problem. If someone is coming from that kind of background, and most kids at some stage in their life have some kind of issue in their background they need to deal with, that will be linked to bullying. We need to have what UNESCO calls the "whole education approach" which has different characteristics and includes things such as policy, political leadership, curriculum development, therapeutic services, and the role of the social media companies. All those have a place in the whole education approach to try to lift up the child and the family that are experiencing the vulnerability and the related bullying.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I will throw something out. I apologise for the selfishness but this is something that I have an interest in. The benefits of sport were discussed. It can be particularly beneficial to young fellows. Have the witnesses dealt with this in relation to combat sports? I have discovered through my own kids and myself that it is something that teaches you to win or, more likely, to lose and builds up an element of resilience while also giving the benefits of camaraderie, involvement with a team and all the rest.

Professor James O'Higgins Norman

I am sorry, I missed the end of the Deputy's question.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I was taking a liberty in raising combat sports, and the wins it offers in team building, resilience and also learning to win and lose. It fits into the wider area of resilience training while saying that we need to work towards a best case scenario where bullying does not occur, but that we can give people the tools to deal with it as much as possible.

Professor James O'Higgins Norman

The key thing about resilience is that the more resilience a person has within themselves, hopefully the better they can cope with whatever life throws at them but we must also be careful that we do not victim blame and tell people that they are not dealing with bullying well because they do not have enough resilience. People may be resilient in one way but not in another. It is quite complex.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I accept that and certainly am not saying that, it was just something I wanted to throw out. The emphasis has to be that we remove the act of bullying as much as possible and create bully-free areas but if there is the possibility of strengthening people it is always welcome.

Dr. Mairéad Foody

I will make one point.

The Deputy referred to team sport as an example of friendship. Friendships are really important for buffering against the negative impacts of bullying. A similar example could also be given in respect of people interested in playing chess. Those who can play the game in their schools have an outlet for their interest and make friends in that way as a result. We do not need to be encouraging involvement in team sports more than anything else.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

No, I agree.

Dr. Mairéad Foody

We must just ensure children have an outlet to make friends and build relationships, because we know that influences bullying rates. Perhaps that was not what the Deputy was saying about team sports, but one thing it is great for is friendships.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I agree. Dr. Foody is 100% correct. The term "positive connectivity" is probably the one I should have gone with. There was an element of selfishness in the way I directed the question initially, so I apologise to everyone for that.

Chairman

I concur with Deputy Ó Murchú. It was all about winning when I was younger. Now that we are encouraging our own children, however, it is not about winning but about participating and making friends. The whole concept has moved on very positively.

It is coming up to 5.30 p.m. so we must conclude our deliberations in order to adhere to the Covid-19 public health guidelines in respect of two-hour meetings. I thank Professor O'Higgins Norman, Dr. Mazzone, Dr. Foody, Dr. Keating, Dr. Gorman and Mr. Heaney for their contributions. The discussion has been of enormous assistance to the committee regarding our examination of this issue. I reiterate that the committee is very grateful to DCU's National Anti-Bullying Research and Resource Centre for its continued support and expert assistance. Its representatives have worked in a spirit of genuine partnership with the committee. I thank them for that, and I speak on behalf of all the members in doing so. I commend the witnesses for their obvious dedication and commitment to addressing these issues in respect of the consistently excellent initiatives undertaken in that regard, such as the FUSE programme which has been developed in DCU. I also thank the members for their participation because it made the meeting very interesting.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.32 p.m. until 3.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 22 June 2021.