Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science debate -
Tuesday, 25 Jan 2022

Leaving Certificate Reform: Discussion (Resumed)

Chairman

On behalf of the committee, I welcome: Mr. Dalton Tattan, assistant secretary of the Department of Education; Ms Anne Tansey, national director of the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS; Ms Orlaith O'Connor, assistant chief inspector of schools in the Department of Education; and Mr. Eamonn Moran, Ms Evelyn O’Connor and Mr. Neville Kenny, who are all principal officers in the curriculum and assessment policy area of the Department of Education. The officials are resuming their briefing on leaving certificate reform and the need for a new senior cycle looking towards the future. We will continue today with our focus on the key areas identified for examination. I ask members to bear in mind that this is a continuation of our discussion with the Department and is not about the leaving certificate coming up this year. We want to focus on leaving certificate reform rather than the Department's plans for the upcoming leaving certificate. We can have another conversation with the Minister on that if need be. I will leave that in members' hands.

I thank the witnesses for coming back in today.

The weather outside is a little safer today than it was the last day that we were online. The reason I brought representatives of the Department back in today is because some of the members did not have the opportunity to put questions to the officials on that occasion.

The format of the meeting is that I will invite members to ask their questions, as Mr. Tattan made an opening statement on 7 December last. Each member has approximately six to eight minutes. As to the first person up this morning, in the absence of Senators O'Loughlin and Dolan, I call Deputy Conway-Walsh.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I thank the witnesses for being here again this morning. What lessons have been learned from the hybrid model of last year? What were the positives and negatives of the model and have the lessons from the hybrid model fed into the work on reforming the leaving certificate? That is my first question.

Mr. Dalton Tattan

I thank the Deputy for that. Undoubtedly, there certainly are learnings from the hybrid model and the model, taken together, over the past couple of years. I might ask Mr. Kenny to come in in a couple of minutes to talk a bit more on some of the work that is ongoing around that.

One of the lessons, certainly, concerns the issue of the grade inflation. We sought as best we could in the circumstances and the time that we had to support schools and teachers around the estimated process but it is very challenging. It is a novel thing and it is not within teachers' training, in their initial teacher education or as part of continuing professional development, CPD, to do formal assessment for State certification. It is something which we certainly, in the context of any senior cycle review, would need to reflect on in terms of ensuring that were we to go down that particular path as some form of school-based assessment, we would provide proper support, guidance etc. for schools to be able to do that.

Mr. Kenny may want to come in to talk a little more about some of the formal reflections around it that we are doing as well.

Mr. Neville Kenny

To build on those earlier points, one of the key points that we certainly have been reflecting on is the power and the strengthen of the collaborative approach that was taken to planning the initiative, if I can put it that way, that the hybrid model was last year. Certainly, that sense of collaboration is something we are anxious to build on and to continue with in the context of broader senior cycle reform.

In that respect, the advisory group on State examinations, which I am sure we will touch on over the course of this morning, played that vital role. Within that, the student voice was a strong feature of that planning and that participation. Certainly, the Irish Second–Level Students Union, ISSU, in particular, played a strong and effective role in representing that student voice and ensuring that it was heard. As for the lessons for going forward, we certainly will be looking to continue that spirit of collaboration as we develop new initiatives or introduce new reforms for senior cycle.

More formally, we are currently engaged with the OECD to carry out a review of both the 2020 and 2021 approaches in order that we can properly and fully capture the lessons that can be learned. To continue in the vein of wanting to include all of the perspectives, the OECD will shortly be engaging with the key stakeholders in both the 2021 and 2020 processes in order that we can fully capture the reflections and use them as lessons to go forward with.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Where you have a hybrid model in one year and examinations only in another year, what percentage of students - we referred to grade inflation in terms of college places - are left over from the previous year?

Does Mr. Tattan understand what I am saying? I mean in terms of college places.

Mr. Dalton Tattan

I think the question is on the numbers who may reapply among, say, those who did the leaving certificate in 2021 who might now reapply through the CAO in 2022.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Yes.

Mr. Dalton Tattan

We do not have those figures. I am sure we can get them from our sister Department, the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Skills, and get them to the Deputy. They can be a significant enough portion. Some will defer, which is different again. They will have secured their place and in some instances, higher education institutions might allow them to defer for a year. That means they may take a spot in a first year undergraduate course this year but others may have had a change of mind or dropped out of a course and then they reapply to the CAO in February. We can get the figures. The CAO process is under way at present and will close on 1 February.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I think that it is quite a high number. I seem to have 46% in my head from previous years. The challenge is creating equality from one year to the next for access to third level. In some ways, improving the curriculum and the method of assessment is the easier task related to reform of the leaving certificate. The harder challenge is to produce a more equal outcome for the leaving certificate. Is it a specific target of the work being conducted that there be a more equitable outcome in the results of the leaving certificate? How is that priority being weighted against other considerations? What are the challenges there?

Mr. Dalton Tattan

The Deputy has raised a really interesting point. It is an experience that other countries have gone through. Scotland is one example. It undertook a fair degree of revision in its curriculum for excellence model and changed its assessment approach. Over time, it made further changes that moved it back towards a more traditional assessment model. The experience that Scotland seems to have had is that some of the reforms it would have liked to have seen, both in the curriculum and changes in teaching in the classroom, including the encouragement of 21st-century skills, have not developed as much as they would have liked. Some of the international writing on this suggests that unless the assessment model is aligned with the curriculum and the pedagogical approach, then the sort of reform that we would like to see does not carry through effectively. We need to think creatively about how we approach things like assessment. In more recent years we have seen, either with new subjects or updated specifications to existing subjects, other assessment models coming in which would be regarded as more equitable because it is a different way to demonstrate skills and other competences beyond the traditional sit-down written examination. We need, however, to think about both new subjects and about looking at existing subjects. In the case of some of the large ones that all students take, such as English or maths, there is nothing beyond the written papers at present. Everyone is effectively sitting those exams. We need to think about whether there are ways to develop other ways to demonstrate skills. That would be a more equitable system.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Obviously the challenge for us in all of the committee's discussions is that they will make a difference and that the changes that are suggested across the board and agreed will be implemented. From the Department's perspective, how soon could we see that being done so that we will have a different form of leaving certificate?

Mr. Dalton Tattan

That is a hard question. Understandably, there can be frustration over the time it takes to work through subject and curriculum development and new specifications, particularly if you are changing assessment processes as part of that or introducing new ones for new subjects that may not have been there before. Much will depend on what were the areas of agreement in the areas where further development work was done. From the Department's perspective, we are conscious of the time it has taken to get to the senior cycle review report at this stage and we are keen that we would be able to start seeing the change as quickly as we possibly can. We have to think about the implementation around this as to whether we can have a cascade effect, with different reforms and different things happening on a roll-out basis, rather than waiting a considerable time for everything to fall into place.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I welcome that because people need to see changes within the next 12 to 24 months. I also welcome the fact that the student voice appears to be having more of an impact now than heretofore. It is one of the good legacies of Covid. I hope this student voice will be heard over the coming days as well in respect of this year's leaving certificate.

Senator Eileen Flynn

I thank the witnesses for coming before us today. I have four simple questions, one of which has already been answered. The key stakeholders in this discussion should be the students. How is the Department responding to calls from students for leaving certificate reform? How are they included in the consultation process?

Mr. Dalton Tattan

The NCCA, which has led on this and worked up the review report, has had very extensive levels of engagement through public consultations. This has included focus group meetings and school-based engagement. At every stage in the development process, students have had an opportunity to be involved. I agree 100% with the Senator that the student voice should be central to our thinking and to the development of the senior cycle. One of the striking things about the accredited grades process in the leaving certificate is students' very effective articulation of their needs and the approaches they want to see. We have continued to have regular engagement with organisations like the ISSU, which we find hugely beneficial in terms of developing our thinking.

Senator Eileen Flynn

Too often, even in my own life, I have seen many young people with disabilities and from marginalised communities being left out of these conversations. Is there good representation of the voice of students?

Mr. Dalton Tattan

I believe there is. The Senator made a point about those who may be at greater risk of educational disadvantage and students with special educational needs. The NCCA and the Department are very mindful of ensuring inclusion in any set of measures. We have a level one and level two programme up to junior cycle level. What do we do when it comes to senior cycle in terms of students with significant special educational needs but who are still able and wish to have access to education in the senior cycle? We need to think about how we cater properly for that group. On the disadvantaged side, we must ensure the steps we take are equitable and fair. If we think of things like transition year, it is not a completely even experience across the system. We would like all students to be able to undertake transition year but we also want that to be a really good-quality experience for students. Again, we must think about how we support schools properly to ensure that can happen.

Senator Eileen Flynn

Yes, 100%.

Based on my work on the ground with marginalised communities, my reason for seeking the reform of the leaving certificate is that not one shoe fits all students. It is about their abilities and emotional and social skills instead of just academic skills. That is my reason. They are usually the students who fall outside of the box, so to speak.

On the digital divide, the Minister for Education has announced additional funding for digital supports. What targets and supports are in place for vulnerable and minority students?

Mr. Dalton Tattan

Again, this is something which, of course, the pandemic exposed about some of those things we probably knew were true, particularly in that first lockdown period. Obviously, quite a number of steps were taken at the time and additional funding was provided to try to close that digital divide.

I will ask Ms Orlaith O'Connor, assistant chief inspector with the Department, to talk about some of those experiences about schools and supporting students, particularly in the remote learning space. Ms Evelyn O'Connor, who works with me on the curriculum and assessment side, may want to say something about the approach to digital more generally.

Ms Orlaith O'Connor

I thank Mr. Tattan and the Senator. With regard to supports that were provided to schools over the period of the pandemic, one of the things we were very anxious to do in the Department was ensure there was a continuity of learning for all groups of students during that period. We issued guidance to schools at various times regarding continuity of learning and the type of curriculum supports that could be provided for those students in a remote learning space at home, those who were at very high risk from Covid-19 and also in the context of students who, for example, may have had to isolate for Covid-related reasons. Through a series of guidance through 2020 and 2021, therefore, we directed schools in the types of supports they could provide in terms of resources, work that students could have done at home or indeed, in a synchronous or asynchronous capacity, how schools could engage with ensuring that students continued with their learning during that period.

For schools, we obviously had teachers who were specialists at post primary. We outlined the types of supports they could provide to their students and also, for example, directions to schools on how support could have been provided for students with special educational needs who were learning in the home.

In terms of remote learning and teaching, schools would have developed and agreed what the single platform was at post-primary level. In terms of supports the Department provided, the advice would have been very strongly to develop a single platform for students to use and have a learning plan in place for students and schools, which they would have agreed, worked out and put in place to ensure those types of supports could be provided.

Ms Evelyn O'Connor

In terms of digital more generally, the curriculum from early childhood to senior cycle offers multiple opportunities for the development of digital skills and digital literacy integration into the curriculum and the classroom. This is at every level and for every child. It would not be specific to those with special needs or those at risk of disadvantage.

At early years, for example, we have the concept of science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, as a learning area. Digital skill development within the early childhood sector would be supported in that concept. In terms of primary then, we have the revised primary language curriculum, which promotes digital literacy as an important aspect of children's learning and aims to supports children's abilities to engage with technology to acquire, comprehend and communicate knowledge in a variety of contexts. A key aspect of the revised curriculum is the development of digital literacy and the child's ability to select, locate and critically analyse relevant information in multiple modes.

We have the primary maths curriculum development, which is ongoing.

Part of that takes account of developments in digital technology. Specifically, it points to the potential technology affords in bringing real world applications to life in the classroom, helping to deepen mathematical understanding and connect mathematical learning to the real world.

The primary curriculum framework outlines that being a digital learner is one of seven key competencies. The key competencies play a significant and central role in children's learning as they are intended to be embedded across all curriculum areas and subjects from junior infants to sixth class through the learning outcomes. The competency of being a digital learner seeks to support children to become curious, creative, confident and critical users of digital technology.

The framework for junior cycle includes a set of 24 statements of learning which are central to the student experience in junior cycle. Statement No. 24 focuses explicitly on digital technology. The framework for junior cycle 2015 sets out eight key skills which support student learning across the curriculum. The key skills are embedded in the learning outcomes within each junior cycle subject and short course and they include a focus on the four Cs of communication, collaboration, creativity and critical thinking. The junior cycle also provides students with opportunities to undertake specific digital short courses in digital media literacy and coding.

At senior cycle, the NCCA has recently conducted a review of senior cycle which involved an extensive process of research and consultation and provided insights into the importance of digital skills for all school leavers. The current senior cycle curriculum supports the development of digital skills in a variety of ways across the four programmes offered, including transition year, the leaving certificate vocational and applied programmes and the leaving certificate established. We have also recently introduced computer science at leaving certificate level.

The digital curriculum is learning outcomes-based and it has already been reformed at junior cycle level. We are working on reform at primary level to make it a learning outcomes-based approach. This will facilitate teachers to provide a differentiated approach so that they can work to students' abilities and provide the curriculum they need in terms of digital and other subject areas and support and help them to the best of their ability.

Senator Eileen Flynn

How quickly is the Department responding to the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child recommendation that the leaving certificate be reformed? What strategy can the Department speak to in relation to this?

Mr. Dalton Tattan

Again, I would point to the NCCA report. The NCCA has done a very comprehensive piece of work, engaging with all stakeholders on this and we are keen to move it on. We understand that the stress leaving certificate students face and the over dependence on the sit-down, written exam in June, that single event, has been an issue for many years. We are very keen to move on and give them a better experience. We believe that the way we have reformed the junior cycle has improved the experience for students of post-primary education and we want to do something similar when it comes to senior cycle as well. Everything should not be dominated by the exam in June in each year.

Senator Eileen Flynn

Thank you.

Chairman

Senator Aisling Dolan is next.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I welcome all of the witnesses. It is really good to hear enthusiasm in the Department's approach to this.

We know that leaving certificate reform is urgently required, particularly in light of all that has happened over the past couple of years. One of the silver linings of what happened over the past couple of years is the acceleration of digitalisation and the move to doing a great deal more online. In our work life, as well as our study life, we have moved to a process of doing more things online, to looking at more flexible ways of learning and, as highlighted, the importance of continuous assessment. We have heard from previous contributors of the importance of ensuring we have a fair and balanced examination process.

Will Mr. Tattan outline the three top opportunities for students in this reform? In other words, from the point of view of the Department of Education, taking into account its positive approach in this, what are the three top opportunities that would benefit students ahead?

Mr. Dalton Tattan

I thank the Senator. One of those opportunities is something we have touched on already, namely, the provision of different sorts of diversity of opportunities for students to be able to demonstrate their knowledge, skills and competencies. That would be helpful, if we could achieve it. Other countries and other systems have managed to do that. As I mentioned earlier, for some of the newer subjects and in updating the specifications of existing subjects, we have sought to try to bring in other forms of assessment, including digital assessment. We can leverage that more while still ensuring fairness. We have to ensure that there is fairness, accessibility, equity and so on. That is one real opportunity.

Sticking with the assessment piece, a second opportunity is around spreading the assessment load. I spoke earlier about the stress that students face, and in terms of feeling that all of their eggs are in the one basket of a written examination in June. We could consider opportunities that would help to alleviate that. This happens to some extent already in the context of music orals and practicals, and other forms of practicals, which happen at times other than in June. There are elements of that within our existing system, but there may be ways to enhance that further and to spread the load such that students would not face a lot of high stake things coming all at the one time.

A further opportunity outside of assessment is, perhaps, integration. We have a number of programmes at the moment. We have the leaving certificate established, which the vast majority of students undertake. We also have the vocational programme, which has really good modules and practical things such as enterprise education and the world of work. Yet, students have to do the LCVP in order to access those. We also have the leaving certificate applied, which we feel is a strong programme and a very successful programme but it sometimes denies opportunities for students pursuing that programme to do other things in leaving certificate established. There are also issues about progression around LCA as well. It is about finding ways through which it would be more student-centred so that students would be able to find ways to get access to things and that we do not have barriers put up necessarily to the sort of experiences that they can get access to.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I thank Mr. Tattan. It is true that we need a student-centred experience. As Mr. Tattan said, it is about spreading the assessment load throughout the year or over two years. I would be interested in continuous assessment and, from a teaching point of view, how teaching staff are involved in that assessment going forward. It is important teachers have the skills to be able to take on that work. We heard from previous contributors to the committee about surveys undertaken in respect of which there were approximately 2,000 respondents and which showed that up to one third of teachers felt that for the students involved their contribution and assessment was really important. If any of the witnesses would like to comment on that, I would appreciate it.

Mr. Tattan spoke about the different types of leaving certificates. When looking at reform of the leaving certificate and bringing in more practical aspects to the course load, the workload, the orals and so on we might, perhaps, look at developing the student's practical side as well as the theory and academic side, given we are considering listing the apprenticeships and further and higher education courses on the CAO form and promoting other forms or pathways of obtaining a qualification.

Perhaps somebody involved in policy or the curriculum might wish to speak to that. I thank the witnesses for their time.

Mr. Dalton Tattan

The point about continuous assessment is interesting. We currently completely rely on external assessment with events. Somebody goes in to sit an examination or for an oral or practical examination. More continuous assessment would almost necessarily involve school-based involvement at some level, with teachers potentially being more involved in assessing students in some way. Other systems have that approach. There is a high level of trust in the leaving certificate and its reliability, since it is external, anonymous and so on. It is not that we should not be thinking about this. We should be thinking about it, but there are implications to it and other systems are prepared to go down routes like this, potentially with external moderation to ensure fairness. It would be a marked change of approach to the current approach. We would have to think carefully about how we would properly support teachers to do that in a way that would work for them and for students.

I agree with the Senator about encouraging the practical side of things. Going back to the experience of secondary education in Ireland, we want, as far as we can, to properly equip students for the next stage of their lives, whether that is higher education, further education and training, apprenticeships, work, or whatever they choose to do. They should be properly prepared for that. When one looks at how the leaving certificate is currently constructed and the examination can dominate the experience of the last year or two of school, we have to question whether we are doing that correctly.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I thank the witnesses for joining us. My first question is brief. I apologise if this was covered in the previous meeting. I was not present. There was a bad storm that day. The NCCA review started in 2018 or so. I understand that that report has been with the Department since last summer. Maybe this ground was covered the last day. When does the Department expect to publish that? What are the next steps?

Mr. Dalton Tattan

The NCCA's work has gone on for somewhat longer than that. The Deputy is right that it went on until the end of May. We have engaged with the document and had conversations with colleagues here and the Minister regarding the Government response. We hope to respond to that in the coming weeks. The next steps after that will depend on the shape of that response. We will be going into an implementation phase of some sort. There will need to be further engagement with colleagues in the NCCA and with others, including the State Examinations Commission and stakeholders.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

There is only so much that Mr. Tattan can say to me because it has not been published. Some stakeholders have expressed surprise that it has not been published at this stage. Mr. Tattan will have a sense of what is in it. All according to the Department's plan, even if he cannot say what is in the document at this point, when is it realistic to expect that changes would be made to the leaving certificate? Would some changes be made in time for the 2023 or 2024 leaving certificate? What is reasonable to expect?

Mr. Dalton Tattan

It will depend on the nature of the response. I touched on this a little earlier. Some issues in the report may be issues that can be implemented at a quicker pace than others.

We would certainly be keen not to wait for everything to come together and have it all arrive in some kind of big bang way. The approach we would like is for things to be implemented as soon as they can be. Some things may be trickier than others. Some might be simple structural changes but others, which may require further engagement with stakeholders and further development, will take that bit longer. It is hard in the current circumstances to be absolutely firm about dates but the Deputy can take it that we will be seeking to move things as quickly as we can and will not be waiting for the slowest-moving piece to come into place.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

There was a series of themes throughout the hearings. I am sure the witnesses have been following them. They have been very thought-provoking and there have been a lot of very interesting contributions. I agree with the points made by previous speakers about apprenticeships. We need to give those a very significant lift, increase the number of people going into apprenticeships and increase the prestige. Obviously some of that work lies with the new Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, and the Minister, Deputy Harris, but there is a role for the Department of Education as well. The other major themes relate to continuous assessment and spreading the pressure of the terminal exam across a greater period. For example, under the system in Britain and in the North, students build their grades continuously over the course of three years between their GCSEs, AS levels and A levels. Is the Department open-minded about the idea of the leaving certificate qualification being accumulated over the course of the two years of the cycle in the form of accredited grades, fifth year exams or certain components being undertaken within fifth year?

Mr. Dalton Tattan

It is an interesting point. We should be open to considering any of these possibilities. The sort of scenario the Deputy has painted is one that would certainly have the potential to help students in alleviating some of the stress. However, a couple of things strike me that mean we have to think carefully about it. One issue is that a very modularised experience might not be as positive for students. For example, we could decide that the oral examinations should happen at the end of fifth year. Nobody would think that a good idea because a major part of the experience of pursuing a language subject could potentially fall away at a very early stage. That does not mean there are not some aspects we could do earlier in the two-year cycle and that could potentially include things in fifth year if we thought that was appropriate. An argument is often made, quite rightly, that spreading these assessment events out ought to reduce the stress levels but there is a risk if there are a lot of them, or if we start to introduce lots of different assessment components across the range of subjects, that students could be hitting assessment events on a regular basis. That could impact on what is happening in the classroom as they would not be able to see beyond the next practical, the next project or whatever it might be. We have to be careful and structure things in such a way that they do not have unintended consequences.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

There is a balance to be struck there. Related to this is that continuous assessment comes up a lot. Teachers and school staff raise a legitimate concern about this, which is worthy of consideration. In the Irish education system, the teacher and school staff occupy the role of an advocate for the student. It is a different dynamic to further and higher education in that, until this emergency pandemic situation, those teachers never had a role in any kind of State certification of qualifications in that way. There is a legitimate fear that continuous assessment could affect the relationship that exists between students and teachers.

Has there been any examination of forms of continuous assessment that are marked externally in other jurisdictions? That seems to be possible logistically but there may be educational reasons why that is challenging. Can the witnesses comment on whether that is done elsewhere?

Mr. Dalton Tattan

I will hand over to my colleague, Mr. Kenny, in a moment to talk about that. There are examples of this, particularly in some of the Scandinavian countries, to the point that they rely almost exclusively on it. It is a concern. It is not completely within the culture of Irish teachers to do something like this for State certification purposes. The equivalent grade experience demonstrates that it is possible to do it but we would also have to think about some of the other implications. It is important that we do not harm that relationship because it is a huge support to students each day in school. Mr. Kenny might talk about some of the examples of other countries to give the Deputy a flavour of that.

Mr. Neville Kenny

The research looked in some detail at the experience in nine separate countries, including Scandinavian countries as Mr. Tattan has mentioned., but also in the UK and further afield in Canada and Australia. We are conscious of trying to take the best practices or opportunities for improvement in our own system from that international experience. There is also an international dimension to the reflection there has been in the past two years so we can truly understand the various opportunities that might be available to us. Equally, the relationship the Deputy mentioned between teachers and students was a feature of the contributions from teacher and school representatives at the meeting of the advisory group last week. It was felt that the students need to be at the centre of everything we are doing and that is something we are acutely aware of trying to achieve in bringing forward reforms to the leaving certificate. The international experience is certainly something we are reflecting on.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

The following questions is subject-specific. A lot of concerns have been raised on the T1 and T2 Irish language proposals. It seems quite apparent that there is a problem in creating a subject that carries equal weighting and is more challenging without providing any real incentive. On a theoretical basis I have no objection to having a more challenging course for native speakers and advanced learners of Irish but if there is no obvious incentive for schools to take it up I am not sure they will do so. There are options. It could be an additional subject in the same way that applied mathematics is or there could be bonus points but if there is no incentive I do not see why a school, even in Conamara or Corca Dhuibhne, would take it up. A lot of schools and parents would be reluctant if students have a better chance of achieving full marks in the other subject. There is a bit of a problem there so I ask the witnesses to respond to that.

As I have this opportunity I will make the following point to the officials from the Department. Sometimes when we talk about the leaving certificate, we talk about the inequalities that exist but we all know that educational disadvantage in schools starts at a young age. It will not all be resolved by addressing the leaving certificate or access to third level education. Discussions are ongoing on the DEIS model and I have been seeking a meeting with the Department on DEIS since last summer. I ask for that to be noted and I would appreciate the opportunity to engage on that.

Mr. Dalton Tattan

I thank the Deputy for those further comments. I will pass over to Mr. Moran in a moment to talk about the Gaeilge but the point the Deputy is making is one we are aware of and we have had a number of representations on the point he has made.

I have made a note about the DEIS model and I will follow up separately on that. Mr. Moran might like to speak about where we are currently at with the T1 and T2 proposals.

Mr. Eamonn Moran

I thank the Deputy for that question, which was also raised by one of his colleagues at the December meeting of the group. The issue of incentives arose in the consultations that were undertaken by the NCCA in relation to the new L1 and L2 specifications. The NCCA advised that there was a significant interest in the consultation process for this particular subject, unsurprisingly, from a wide range of stakeholders and interested individuals. The NCCA got 740 responses to a survey it undertook as part of the consultation. It got 240 witness submissions. It had 13 focus group meetings with 275 individuals, as well as eight bilateral meetings and 19 one-to-one engagements. Therefore, there has been a significant amount of consultation material to get through since the consultation finished at the end of November. The NCCA has recently commenced an analysis of that input to the consultation process. The aim is that it will have a report on that consultation early this year. We will be keen to allow the NCCA the opportunity to examine the input into the consultation process and to consider it. This will also look at the issue of the incentives. That is where it is that at the moment in relation to that process.

Chairman

I note Deputy Paudie O'Sullivan is not online and that Deputy Nolan, Senator Pauline O'Reilly, Deputy Jim O'Callaghan and Senator Mullen were all here on the last day. The members who were not here on the last day had a number of questions. I will allow the two Deputies back in. I have two quick questions.

The Department's statement on new and revised curricular specifications includes clear statements on digital learning skills and the use of digital technologies. It was mentioned in the debate in the Seanad last week. I would like to ask the officials if there are any plans to develop a national online learning programme, as recommended by this committee on the work that was done and on the report that was carried out and published on the impact of Covid-19 on primary and secondary education. At the time, SOLAS stated to the committee that it would be happy to assist the Department of Education in developing such a programme, similar to the one that the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science has in place. Has the Department been in contact with SOLAS in this regard? If not, do the officials see any merit in liaising with SOLAS officials to ascertain how this can be done? We have to learn lessons post Covid-19. It is great that the Government will have a separate report on Covid-19 and I have no doubt but that it will take health, education and living into account. However, this is just one part that we need to address. We need to see what the officials have to say on that.

As well as this, the Library Association of Ireland has recently corresponded with the committee regarding the need to increase the number of school libraries. This was a recommendation and I am nearly sure that it was in the programme for Government. I strongly believe in encouraging young children, both in primary and in post primary, to read. A love for books is fundamentally important. This is especially because, I think we can all agree, young children are now on technological devices. If they were allowed to stay on them, they would be on them morning, noon and night. I am a father of an 11-year-old, a ten-year-old and seven-year-old. I have no doubt every parent will agree with me and can put themselves in my shoes. I will not say the word "rows" because I do not want to be too dramatic, but it is continuously a fight to get young people off devices nowadays.

We need to give them the opportunity to read books, bring books home from school, exchange books and things like that. It is difficult for some families to go to the public library, but if the library is in the school, it gives them an opportunity to exchange books and bring books home.

Particularly during the pandemic, we have seen the effect that technology devices have on young children and families as a whole. There were no sporting activities and no school or anything else, so the only way to communicate was through devices. I tabled a parliamentary question before Christmas and I questioned the Minister about investment in more school books before the budget.

I have one further question after the witnesses answer those.

Mr. Dalton Tattan

Someone else may wish to add something to what I will say. I am not sure we have somebody in the group here today who can speak to the SOLAS piece, but we can follow up separately on that and get some information to the Chair if not. I share the Chair's experience as a parent. I have had a similar experience at home in terms of devices and the love of devices.

On the books piece, there have been a couple of recent initiatives and there has been substantive investment. In terms of budget, the most recent budget announcement and our previous one were aimed more specifically at children from disadvantaged backgrounds. We are very alive to the need to encourage reading, both within the classroom as part of formal experience but also, obviously, outside of that. There is certainly plenty of evidence and literature that reading, including reading for pleasure, is a very positive reinforcing factor in the lives and education of students.

I do know if others may want to say something further on that. I will hand over to them.

Ms Evelyn O'Connor

I might just come in. I cannot speak specifically to SOLAS, but, as the Chair knows, we have implemented a national digital strategy for schools and we invested some €200 million in that regard. That was to help schools get started. We are currently working on a new digital strategy for schools and the Department is investing a further €200 million in that regard.

Coming back briefly to Senator Flynn's question, the Department has another €50 million, which it got from the EU under the national recovery and resilience plan, and that will be specifically to assist schools at risk of disadvantage and with special needs.

Ms Orlaith O'Connor might come in on the online learning. The professional support services gave the schools huge support over the past couple of years in terms of facilitating and enabling of online learning. I do not know whether blended learning will be part and parcel of that going forward, but that is something that we have to think about.

Going back to the national digital strategy, there has been huge engagement and consultation by the Department in that regard and I would be surprised of SOLAS was not part of that.

Ms Orlaith O'Connor

There are two points I will add to Ms Evelyn O'Connor's contribution. On the junior cycle, every one of the subject specifications in junior cycle includes, as one of the key skills, that a student is literate. Literacy is built into the development of all of those specifications, as well as digital literacy. That is one aspect.

The second thing to mention is the reading recovery programme for primary schools, which is an intensive programme for those students who are identified early on and who would have difficulty in terms of their literacy. It is a short-term individual customised programme for those students and an early intervention to ensure that their literacy skills are developed.

Chairman

I do not want a reply to this as it is just a comment. Fantastic work is being done by the Department of Education on early learning, school reading and so forth around identifying people who need additional help. However, what we are looking at is where kids can exchange books in the school in a way similar to a public library. I have no doubt work could be done in conjunction with county councils and local authorities throughout the country on this. If the Department of Education was to do work with the library services and the Library Association of Ireland on that, I would encourage it. Has Mr. Tattan been told by his children that he is an out-of-touch father because he is taking away the devices? Can the Department of Education develop some advice for parents on how long children should be on their devices and how to get them off them. I would be interested in that but sin scéal eile.

In regard to apprenticeships, are there any programmes to support guidance counsellors in promoting apprenticeships as an exciting and viable career option? I have talked before about encouraging more people to participate in apprenticeships. Does the Department of Education liaise with the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science in this regard?

Mr. Dalton Tattan

I will hand over to Ms O'Connor in a moment to talk about the ongoing work on guidance. However, we have a very close connection with the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. I am conscious that these two sets of issues cut across both Departments. We want to ensure there is alignment and continuity across the experience that students have. Apprenticeships are one area the State has put real effort into, both to encourage development of new apprenticeships in new areas in recent years and to encourage take-up of traditional apprenticeship of course. We are on a journey in terms of the prestige mentioned earlier by another contributor. A good deal of work and investment has been put in to ensure these are being seen as real opportunities and real options for students. Ms O'Connor will say more about that.

Ms Evelyn O'Connor

We have some 900 guidance counsellors in the system, providing guidance counselling support to schools. All schools have some allocation of guidance hours. The schools have autonomy as to how they deploy those hours. The schools would be expected to have plans in place and, in regard to each student, to help them put a plan in place with a range of options for their career paths and education planning. That would include options such as apprenticeships and going on to further and higher education. As Mr. Tattan said, we work closely with colleagues in the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. We recently established a national policy group to put in place a guidance strategy, a continuum, a whole-of-guidance strategy right across the system, including to the areas of further and higher education and the world of work. We will be looking at all kinds of guidance issues in that respect over the next year or two, depending on how long it takes to get it all together.

Returning to the Chair's question in regard to books and working with libraries, the Minister has provided a grant of €20 million to schools for the purchase of books this year. We have already been in contact with the public libraries. The libraries are showing they are willing and able and will work with the schools and give them advice and support in regard to purchasing books that would be of assistance to the children.

Chairman

I call Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I thank the Chair. I am sorry I was delayed. I was at another meeting but I have listened to a good bit of the debate. Many of these questions have probably been asked so I will be brief.

Something I take from my time teaching is that I always tried to examine what the students knew rather than what they did not know. That was the principle that I always tried to take into my own assessment when I was teaching. I suppose the big thing that has worked in the students' favour this year and last year, in terms of leaving certificate 2021 and 2022, is that they have an expanded range of questions and choice in those formal examinations. Can Mr. Tatton comment if that is what is envisaged to continue in the short term, irrespective of the bigger question of leaving certificate reform? I refer to 2023 and, perhaps, 2024. Is that type of expanded line of questioning and choice and range set to continue into the future? That is my first question and I have one other question then.

Mr. Dalton Tattan

I suppose in the very immediate term the answer is probably "Yes" in that we announced in August last, as the Deputy will be aware, that there are some adjustments to the papers and there is some level of increased choice. Sometimes there may be further questions added to the paper to give more choice. Sometimes there is less required of a student in terms of content to be covered in order to be able to access the paper.

Over the past couple of years those have been responses to Covid and the disruption students have experienced as a result of Covid. Obviously, there was quite a bit of positive feedback and I seem to remember, in terms of the examination, particularly the written examination last June, some of the pressures students would have experienced in trying to get through a paper in a demanding three hours or thereabouts timeframe seemed to have been lifted somewhat. That is interesting. It is something we need to reflect on in terms of whether that is an improved experience but I suppose, too, going back some of the earlier conversation, whatever assessment process we have now and into the future needs to be properly aligned to the curriculum and it needs to be a fair assessment in terms of the students' skills and knowledge.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I thank Mr. Tattan for that. I have just one question and a comment as well. Following on from Deputy Ó Laoghaire in relation to reports about what is happening with the Irish language, I spent most of my career teaching Irish and I suppose I would like to think that I know the challenges in terms of what is ahead for the language. Mr. Tattan will not probably respond ahead of the report that the Department will issue but I suppose I would like to put it on the record that I believe that any suggestion of abolishing foundation level Irish would be a mistake. It is a level at which certain children can be reached out to and, in terms of embracing the language, any suggestion that that would be abolished would be a mistake. I hope that that is not the case.

I reinforce what Deputy Ó Laoghaire said in relation to providing an incentive for people to take higher level Irish. For a long time in my teaching career, it was always a challenge to try to get children to continue taking higher level but the more children we can induce to take higher level Irish the better it is for the health and well-being of the language in the long term. With mathematics and applied mathematics, we supplied inducements through bonus points. That is something that needs to be considered for Irish.

My final question is on digital technologies. It was referenced earlier that in the region of €200 million was suppled during the pandemic to get schools up and running in terms of information technology, IT. Is that the level of investment we are likely to see continuing post-Covid given that is the general direction and tread in the teaching methodologies that are used by teachers and the access that students now would have at home as well to today's devices? It is ironic that I am asking this question just after the Chair asked how do we get our children off devices but in terms of learning and the positive benefits that they can supply, is that level of investment likely to continue into the future?

Mr. Dalton Tattan

On that, that struck me too. I suppose like everything there are pluses and minuses to these things. However, we know that for children, no more than with ourselves, their lives are so informed and so imbedded in digital, and it will be part of their lives. We need to ensure that we are preparing them and, I suppose, ensuring too that there are balanced plans and that there are other experiences in life beyond that.

The level of investment is really important. Obviously, it has been particularly important to support the remote learning that has been necessary. We know that is not as good as the face-to-face experiences when students are physically in schools each day, but it was key in maintaining connection with students during that time. In the context of the review of the senior cycle, the likelihood is that, as we have done to date and are likely to be doing, we will continue to devise new forms of assessment, some of which are going to be technology-based. That is something that some subjects particularly lend themselves to. It is going to be important that the structures are there and available to schools so that they can access them in a meaningful way in order that students can take up courses, excel and enjoy them.

On the question about Irish, I note the point the Deputy made about the foundation level and encouraging the use of the language for those in the higher achieving space. From our perspective, we want students to continue to be able to engage with the national language at whatever level they wish and are able to do. We will have to reflect on the work of the NCCA on level 1 and level 2. That will be helpful in informing the approaches we will take, going forward.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I have a number of short questions arising from the discussion. In terms of the guidance counsellors, I know our guests mentioned there will be a strategy there and that there are 900 guidance councillors already. However, it is quite obvious that number is not sufficient. We need more boots on the ground, particularly for exploring options for students around further and higher education. That must match up with the apprenticeship opportunities that hopefully will be provided. How many extra guidance counsellors would the Department anticipate being in place in the next couple of years? I know our guests will agree that it is impossible for one guidance counsellor to spread himself or herself so thinly around a school of a couple of hundred students. Such a counsellor is unable to give the type of guidance that is necessary.

Computer science is now available in schools, as was mentioned. Has the Department a measure of exactly how many second level schools computer science is available in and where those schools are? We must ensure we are not creating an unequal playing field for those who want to pursue the subject. We all agree that digitalisation and digital technologies are the way forward. We need opportunities for students there. In how many schools is computer science available and where are those schools?

What formal communications does the Department have with those who are delivering the national broadband plan and how often are those meetings and engagements? How is an assessment conducted into how many households and students are without the broadband infrastructure to be able to connect?

On the urgency of implementation, the pandemic has obviously concentrated minds. Is there now a greater urgency for reform than was the case heretofore?

Mr. Dalton Tattan

I thank the Deputy for those questions. I will ask one or two of my colleagues to come in to answer some of them. On the matter of guidance counsellors, we have sought to restore the various posts that were lost during the leaner years. They have now been fully restored at this point. In terms of further posts, beyond what we currently have, that is something that would have to be considered in the context of any discussions on priorities.

Mr. Moran may have some statistics on the Deputy's question about computer science. If they are not readily available here and now, we can send those statistics to the Deputy. We have that information. There are some new subjects, including, for example, physical education.

We are keen to encourage schools to take these up and make them as broadly available for students as they can be so that they are accessible.

I will take the issue of the broadband plan away and provide the Deputy with some information through other colleagues. Nobody at the meeting is directly involved in that at the moment. I agree with the Deputy on the implementation. For some time there has been a strong feeling that there is a need for reform. That has been talked about in the public domain for some time, particularly with the leaving certificate more than just the senior cycle more generally. I concur with the view that minds have been concentrated in recent years. The issue has been around for a while but it has reached the point where we need to look closely at it. Compared with systems in other jurisdictions, many positives have come out of the past few years in terms of the willingness of teachers to step up to the plate and in their public service commitment and collaboration to do things that were untested before. I mention the voice of students as well. The level of resilience in our system was exposed. Other countries that relied more heavily on continuous assessment, project work, school-based assessment and so on were better placed to pivot and cope than Ireland was because we rely a lot on an external assessment and a terminal exam. I ask Mr. Moran to provide statistics on the computer science subject.

Mr. Eamonn Moran

I will pick up on the Deputy’s question on leaving certificate computer science. We do not have the specific numbers for schools that are offering computer science but my colleagues in the State Examinations Commission will provide that to us and we will send it on to the Deputy. The Deputy will know that the subject was introduced to a number of phase 1 schools in 2018 for the examination to be sat for the first time in 2020. It has since been available for roll-out nationally. We work closely with schools proposing to offer the subject, given that it is brand new. Our teacher support and professional development services provide extensive CPD to teachers in those schools to ensure the subject is rolled out effectively. There is a fair amount of excitement about it as well. One of the subjects is partly done on computer so the schools that have been involved in it have responded to us favourably on the new specification. We will come back to the Deputy with the specific numbers.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I thank the witnesses. Some of their inputs have been positive. There has been some criticism of the Department in the past for being overly conservative and I have not seen that today. We have a lengthy report coming out and we have done a huge amount of work. I would like to understand from the witnesses what interactions they have had with the academic community. I would also like to discuss some of the policy decisions, particularly from the NCCA because we have heard some interesting testimony from some academics during the course of compiling this report.

Apprenticeships have been mentioned and it is fair to say that the future is a green one. We are probably not seeing the amount of education that we need at the moment. There has been significant investment in third level education but that is very recent and one of the difficulties is how we ensure that younger students in second and even first level education would go into the kind of areas where the future is likely to be. I would like to think that if we concentrated more on mentorships and transforming the school system so that it appears more like transition year throughout school, that could have an influence on what people choose to do because they would have some experience.

However, now we have quite an academic model of education, which is leading people in a different direction.

The Department has shown it would consider remodelling assessment. That was a positive evident in the previous contribution, particularly in light of the flexibility shown in other jurisdictions during the pandemic, which shows the importance of such flexibility. The conversation on a hybrid model leaving certificate is probably about having such flexibility. What may be needed is not so much a hybrid model as having continuous assessment. Currently, students are very much under pressure. While it is important to consider a hybrid model for this year, we need to consider a continuous assessment model into the future.

The pandemic has had an influence on the way people view caring work in society. I would reference the Citizens' Assembly on Gender Equality. If we were to carry out a similar exercise, people would have a very different approach to education following the pandemic than they had prior to it. We are at a crucial point now. I have spoken for way too long and note the time I have taken. I would welcome any thoughts the witnesses would have on those comments.

Mr. Dalton Tattan

I thank the Senator for her comments and questions. Mr. Moran may also wish to comment further on the Senator's points. In terms of the NCCA process, we have had engagement with the NCCA since it submitted the report. It had provided us with a briefing. It has worked in very well both international and national research on the views, experience and knowledge of academic ideas, which is very much reflected in the work it has done.

On apprenticeships and the academic system we have, we are very mindful efforts have been made to raise the profile and prestige around apprenticeships in recent times. One factor in the context of senior cycle review, which is perhaps beyond senior cycle in a sense, is about pathways, which is about preparing students for what they want to do in the next stage of their lives. Pathways in the past may have been more linear in terms of a pathway to college or going to work but now individuals may move in many different directions. We need to ensure we are student-centred and that there are opportunities to move. It may be that people want to move into work, training, apprenticeship or change careers and so on. That level of flexibility and mobility is important to us.

Transition year could provide good opportunities. Certainly there are many good examples of transition year programmes that have worked really well and that have had very good links with employers, higher education, further education and so on. We would like to raise that to the point where there is greater evenness in the spread of experience students get during transition year.

On the hybrid model versus continuous assessment, there is an interesting point around that. What we might say about the system of accredited grades is that it was a response to a particular emergency situation, but it should not be mistaken for an answer to some of the challenges around the leaving certificate or senior cycle and, potentially, continuous assessment or different forms of assessment may offer us more opportunities. On the pressure point aspect, there may be an inevitability and some degree of pressure in addressing what is a significant moment in the lives of students and it may be unavoidable. However, very high levels of stress are unacceptable and where the experience is dominated by an exam rather than what is happening in school each day in their learning environment, we have to question the process.

The Senator's final point on the impact of the pandemic in terms of implications for gender and other issues in society is an interesting one and something we need to be cognisant of in the context of implementation. Much of the NCCA work was done pre-pandemic.

Things are constantly evolving, as we know. We need to ensure that, as we go forward, we are affecting the needs now and into the future.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank the guests for coming before the committee this morning and this afternoon.

I have one question for Mr. Tattan in respect of an issue that has been raised on numerous occasions by other witnesses who have attended before the committee. They emphasised that there would be a benefit from decoupling the leaving certificate from the admissions institutions that we have in Ireland at present. Obviously, if people described the primary purpose of the leaving certificate then, unfortunately, I think that many of them would say that it determines what a person does at third level as opposed to the culmination of all the work that he or she has done at second level. Does Mr. Tattan think there is any benefit in trying to decouple the leaving certificate from admissions to third level? Obviously, we would save the third level institutions a huge amount of trouble by deciding admissions on the basis of the leaving certificate results. Is Mr. Tattan concerned that if we decoupled it too much, we may find ourselves in an unfair situation, as can happen in other countries, whereby there would be a system of admission to third level that would be difficult to identify?

Mr. Dalton Tattan

There probably are, and I think the Deputy has touched on some of the arguments. There are arguments both ways on this one. On the one hand, there is a huge convenience in having a simple set of exams, which is a route through to things like higher education if that is where one wants to be. The leaving certificate is obviously not that and should not be viewed as that. I am not saying that the Deputy is saying that though for many it is, in effect, a passport to higher education. Often that is where the pressure is created. Much of the commentary is about the pressure, particularly in the context of high-demand courses and that back flows into the leaving certificate and, therefore, the senior cycle experience too. At one level, one might say if we were to decouple this would that be a way to ease that sort of pressure. However, I would not be too sure of that for a couple of reasons. One is that, presumably, if it were not there, something else would have to replace it in terms of higher education admissions. Although this means that that would then become where the pressure point is. That situation could be worse for students in many ways because unless we were to ditch the leaving certificate, they would have a leaving certificate but it might be far less regarded than it currently is whereby it might just be seen as something that has to be gone through. Really, however, the focus, if a person wants to go on into higher education, is whatever the process is there.

Interestingly, some countries, especially the US, are questioning quite significantly their current admissions systems. So things like the standard assessment tests, SATs, which were regarded as tried and tested methods of admission in the US, are now being questioned much more seriously.

Potentially, there is something there. I think, perhaps, through keeping the integration there. Is there a way for us to make it more holistic? Should the final assessment someone gets at the end of the senior cycle experience be as narrow as a set of grades in a set of subject or could we make it broader than that? Maybe things like transition year might offer opportunities around that, which might help to broaden it out and that it would be more than simply a set of marks.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

This is a complicated issue. A complete decoupling would probably create more problems than it would resolve. Maybe universities and, in particular, those responsible for courses need to identify particular skills that they are looking for.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank the Chairman. I have no further questions for the guests.

Chairman

I thank the officials for coming before us. I thank them for returning to us after our meeting on 7 December. On that day, they were very good to confirm that they would be able to come back again. Their attendance is very much appreciated by me and the other members of the committee.

Does Senator Dolan wish to make a brief comment? She should note that I told the witnesses that this meeting would be finished by 1 p.m.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I have a brief question for Mr. Tattan. He mentioned that the incorporation of leaving certificate reform could happen in different stages and that it would not just be one huge change in a particular year from one style of leaving certificate to another. What type of change does he anticipate at an earlier stage? Could the 60% of subjects that do not currently involve a continuous assessment option be the subject of one at an earlier stage? I thank Mr. Tattan and the Chair.

Mr. Dalton Tattan

It is certainly possible. Looking at senior cycle reform more generally, development work is ongoing through the NCCA and its processes. Subjects that come up for development and that do not have continuous assessment components have tended to have those added in as part of the updating of specifications. It is certainly possible to do that. It would very much depend on the overall shape of the reform and whether there is another aspect that might impact on it.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Tattan. I thank members for their participation and the witnesses for coming before us. It is greatly appreciated that they took the time to come back before the committee. On foot of the bad weather on the previous occasion, members were unable to attend. We all appreciate their attending today.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.17 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 1 February 2022.