Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science debate -
Thursday, 24 Mar 2022

Technological Universities Act 2018 (Section 36) (Appointed Day) (No. 2) Order 2022: Motion

Chairman

I remind members to ensure that their mobile phones are switched off for the duration of the meeting because they interfere with the broadcasting equipment even in silent mode.

We are meeting the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Simon Harris. I welcome him and his officials. The purpose of the meeting is to consider the motion that Dáil and Seanad Éireann approve the Technological Universities Act 2018 (Section 36) (Appointed Day) (No. 2) Order 2022. The format of the meeting is that I will invite the Minister to make a brief opening statement of five minutes and members can ask questions. As the Minister will probably be aware, the committee will publish the opening statement on the Oireachtas website following the meeting.

Before I begin, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I call the Minister to make his opening statement.

Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science (Deputy Simon Harris)

I thank the Chairman and members for facilitating this session. I know we will try to get through a significant amount of business today, both the motion before us and Committee Stage of the Higher Education Authority Bill 2022. I will, therefore, keep my opening statement short.

Today is a significant day for the people of the south east and higher education in the region. We are taking a firm step towards the establishment of the new technological university on 1 May. I am sure the Dáil, Seanad and committee records and media coverage locally will show that there has been much debate about a technological university for the south east for a very long time. There have been false dawns, ups and downs and disagreements but we are now finally at a point where I am bringing to this committee the draft order which, subject to the committee's scrutiny and approval, I hope to ask Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann to approve very shortly.

The Technological Universities Act 2018 (Section 36) (Appointed Day) (No. 2) Order 2022 is an order under the Technological Universities Act. It must do two things, namely, choose the day on which the new technological university is established and decide a new name for the technological university. As the Chairman will know, the order then needs to be approved by resolution in each House of the Oireachtas.

I propose that we set a date of 1 May 2022, as promised to the people of the south east, as the date for the establishment of the new technological university and that it will be known as the "South East Technological University" or "Ollscoil Teicneolaíochta an Oirdheiscirt" in the Irish language. The signing of this order will bring about the dissolution of the Waterford and Carlow institutes of technology. I am very conscious that this will be the fifth technological university to have been established. To establish a technological university one must dissolve the institutes of technology. That can be quite an emotional moment in many ways because people have dedicated their careers to building institutes of technology that we can be really proud of. I pay tribute to everybody in Carlow Institute of Technology, CIT, and Waterford Institute of Technology, WIT, who have worked so hard to get us to this point. I can say categorically that we would not be at this point of being able to establish a technological university for the south east were it not for all of the progress, work and efforts of those two institutes of technology over many years. I greatly appreciate the leadership shown by all of their staff, students and student bodies, which have provided huge support.

This will be the fifth technological university in the State. That is another important milestone for the country and the south east. The new technological university will provide a multi-campus university presence, as people know. The new technological university will increase access to higher education, drive enhanced regional development and increase opportunities for students, staff, business and enterprise, and local communities. It will deliver a higher education institution of scale and reach, which will benefit many students in the region. I look forward to seeing these benefits and the south east and the new technological university take their rightful place in the higher education landscape in Ireland.

The lacuna that has existed for years is now closed. The establishment of the South East Technological University will allow people throughout the region to obtain a university degree in their home place. I am delighted to see that milestone being reached and congratulate all involved.

While we often have rows in this place, which is healthy in a democracy, I acknowledge the cross-party support that has largely existed for this project. The Chairman has been a driving force in this for many years. We have had many meetings of the all-party group, which has been a key vehicle and help in arriving at this point.

There will be other days on which to discuss the need to deliver on capital projects. Deputy Ó Cathasaigh and others will remind me about wanting to expand. We will expand the physical footprint of the campus in Waterford. The purpose of this meeting, however, is straightforward; it is to pick the designation date and the name and to ask the committee to approve that to go before Dáil and Seanad Éireann.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I thank the Minister. I congratulate him because the technological universities are one of the initiatives he has driven forward. I commend all those who have worked so hard to make this happen. It is not easy to disagree and keep progressing at the same time. I have every confidence, however, that if the proper resources and funding are provided and the right leadership is in place for the technological universities, they can be a game-changer for society and the challenges it faces and will face in decades to come in terms of climate change and many other issues. They will serve us well. I commend all those involved and look forward to this evolving at later stages. May Day is a momentous day on which to begin. I also congratulate the students because this is about students and learning. I look forward to the progress in the months ahead.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

This is a very welcome day and another extremely important step along the road in providing a university of scale and substance, as it has been referred to, in the south east. The technological university of the south east will now be known as the South East Technological University, SETU. It has been important in terms of balanced regional development and is twice referenced in the programme for Government. I am delighted that the timetables are being adhered to and that we will be able to make the commencement order for 1 May. That is extremely important.

It goes some way towards tackling a structural issue that has existed in the south-east region for generations. To take the example of my family, of the four children, three of us attended Waterford Institute of Technology, WIT, in one capacity or another, but all four of us had to leave the region in order to finish our education. That pattern has a significant effect on the demographics of the region. That is demonstrated in the research and it is well acknowledged. The region has been losing people from the ages of 18 to 30 and it very often struggles to get them back. It has a significant impact on the wealth of the region because there is a significant wealth transfer as parents pay for their children to attend universities outside the region. This goes some way towards addressing that problem. It is very welcome.

I am glad the Minister referenced the bittersweet nature of signing an order such as this, in that WIT and IT Carlow are being dissolved. They have proud traditions. I am biased in this regard, but WIT in particular has a proud tradition. Even reaching back to when it was Waterford Regional Technical College, WRTC, it has provided an outstanding service to the people of Waterford and the wider south-east region. I reference again its geographic location within the city. That is important because I know the Minister is committed to expanding the footprint of SETU within Waterford. I am anxious that we expand the current footprint because it sits within its communities and its city extremely well.

As I stated, I remember when WIT was WRTC. Promises and commitments were given at that time that the name change would mean something more than changing the sign above the door. It is extremely important that this name change means more than changing the sign over the door. It must be the university of substance and scale to which we have referred. I know this is not necessarily the day to speak about capital allocations but that is important. As we say as Gaeilge, we must beart de réir ár mbriathar. We must deliver on what this university promises to be by ensuring there is a commensurate level of commitment in terms of capital funding and otherwise.

However, I welcome this day. It is an important step along the road. It is important that those who are currently attending WIT and IT Carlow will be able to graduate from a university and with a university qualification. I very much hope it will be the anchor point and the pivotal point for a regeneration of the south-east region, and Waterford in particular. I thank the Minister for bringing the motion before the committee.

Chairman

As a person from the south east, I know the importance of this. It was very much part of the programme for Government when I sat at the Cabinet table in 2011. We thought we would reach this point before now but there have been many false dawns in recent years. The establishment of the technological university is very welcome. The fact it will be established on May Day sends a strong message.

The Minister is correct that we would not be here if it were not for the work and commitment of the staff and others involved in IT Carlow and WIT through many years. We have to recognise the work of Jim Moore and John Moore, the chairmen of the governing bodies, in recent years. Those gentlemen have worked closely together and brought this project to where it is today. I also recognise Patricia Mulcahy and the governing bodies. There was a willingness to do this because they saw the importance of driving and enhancing foreign direct investment in the south east.

Today is not the day to discuss capital investment but I concur with Deputy Ó Cathasaigh's point that this is not just about a name change and that there is a need for investment to drive this project. I know the Minister has stated that and committed to it.

I will be parochial and mention the Wexford campus. Work in that regard is ongoing with Wexford County Council and the Minister's Department in the context of a compulsory purchase order for a site. That is very welcome. There are different parts to that project now, including buying the site and then getting the infrastructure and faculty into the south east. I know the Minister will continue to be committed to this project.

Deputy Ó Cathasaigh referred to the lost generation who had to leave the south east to go to Cork, Dublin, Limerick, Galway, Maynooth or elsewhere for their education. There is an opportunity now for students to remain in the south east and to be educated, live and rear their families there. They did not have that opportunity previously.

The big winner in this will come in the context of driving and enhancing foreign direct investment. IDA Ireland has indicated to me that one of the specific issues in that regard is education and the lack of a university. That will no longer be an issue as we will have a university in the south east. I thank the Minister for his dedication to this project. I also thank the Secretary General and all the officials in his Department.

Deputy Simon Harris

I thank Deputies Conway-Walsh and Ó Cathasaigh and the Chairman. I wish to acknowledge - I have never had cause to do so previously - Deputy Cullinane, who has been very active and helpful in the context of this project. The points made in respect of resources and leadership are valid and important. I can come back to the committee for a discussion on resources for technological universities in greater detail but I point out that there are dedicated funds now for technological universities, with the technological university transformation fund being one such fund. Our intention is to secure through the European Regional Development fund a specific research fund that only technological universities will be allowed to draw down. In the context of the south east in particular, the capital plan contains specific ring-fencing for a project to expand the footprint in Waterford and to finally secure a site in Wexford. I am satisfied in that regard.

The point in respect of leadership is also really important. The signs so far are encouraging. The fact that Dr. Paddy Prendergast, the former provost of Trinity College Dublin, put his name forward to chair this governing authority was a real vote of confidence in the new technological university.

The process to recruit the first president is under way. While I am not directly involved in that process, my understanding is that there is significant interest in it, which is a good sign. I think the final round of interviews for that position will likely be held towards the latter half of April. My Department will keep the committee informed in that regard.

Deputy Ó Cathasaigh knows the importance of this in a real and meaningful way as a former student of WIT. He pointed out the significant reality for Waterford and the south east that people have had to leave the region to complete their education. That is not acceptable. People should be able to access all levels of the Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, framework within the region. Furthermore, people should be able to come from other regions to the south east if they want to go to a technological university there because it is the best place to study A, B or C. This new technological university needs to decide where it will fit as to what it wants to be the best at in this country and in Europe.

As for this being more than a name change, that is a real issue. It is entirely understandable that in Waterford there will be a healthy degree of scepticism until the people there see shovels in the ground or real and meaningful investment. I said that when I was on WLR with Damien Tiernan on my recent visit. I fully get that. We have €430 million, I think, in capital investment to spend between now and 2024. Most of that is by competitive call. We have identified only a very small number of projects as wishing to work outside of that competitive call process. One is the expansion of the Waterford site, that is, the expansion of the physical footprint of the university of Waterford. The other is the securing of a site, working with Wexford County Council, for a Wexford campus. We will put our money where our mouth is in that regard.

Thank you, Chair, for rightly praising the work of the outgoing chairs of the governing authorities, Jim Moore in Waterford and John Moore in Carlow. I thank both for their leadership. We will talk about higher education governance in legislation in a moment. Serving on a governing authority can often be a thankless job. It epitomises a commitment to community and public service. I thank Jim Moore and John Moore, all members of the governing authorities and the presidents of the institutions for their leadership in that regard.

The Chairman and I talk regularly about our commitment and the Government's commitment to securing a site in Wexford. I reiterate that commitment on the record of the committee today. I also thank Tom Enright, the chief executive of Wexford County Council, and the council itself for its leadership in helping us to secure that site and the legal mechanisms they have had to work on with us in that regard. I am delighted to say we have now provided the necessary sanctions through our Department and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to get on with that. That work is very much under way and it is full steam ahead. Yesterday, while attending a summit on green skills and the retrofitting agenda in Wexford County Council with the Chairman, I was delighted to see the energy the council is applying to this project.

Senator Fiona O'Loughlin

My colleague, Senator Malcolm Byrne, was to be here. I believe there is a ministerial visit ongoing.

I wish the technological university all the very best. I am familiar with some of the work of Carlow and Waterford institutes of technology. There is a tremendous amount of experience and wisdom there that will no doubt shape and guide the new technological university. I echo our appreciation of Dr. Patrick Prendergast. He is a very inspired choice and, having seen the amazing work he did in Trinity College, I have no doubt he will bring incredible experience and wisdom to the role. It is such an exciting time for Carlow, Waterford and Wexford. I wish everyone involved the very best.

Deputy Alan Farrell

I echo Senator O'Loughlin's remarks. This is a fabulous opportunity for the south east. As a student, I attended university in Waterford back when it transferred from WRTC to WIT in the 1990s. I will have to admit that my first protest was one fighting for facilities to be delivered on campus in Waterford in 1996, when we sat on the bridge to get a library, which was delivered a couple of years later. I participated in only the second protest in my life a couple of weeks ago outside the Russian embassy. It just goes to show I do not protest too often because I think dialogue and debate are far more lucrative in delivering. That said, this has taken a very long time. As the Chair said, it has been on the Cabinet's agenda for many years, so I congratulate the new Department and the Minister on the initiative to bring this forward right across the country, but particularly for the south east, with which I have a particular affinity.

I am glad the Minister referred to the specific capital funding for technological universities because it is important that the regions are provided with sufficient resources to keep up with their urban or city universities and educational campuses. That is critical to the economic welfare of the regions, particularly the south east, a fact that has been alluded to by several members.

I congratulate the Minister, the Department and the Government on this significant body of work. I congratulate previous committee Chairs and Ministers, who have put a lot of work into this to get us to this point. It is worth acknowledging their part in the process as well.

Chairman

I think your first protest was more successful than your second, Deputy.

I wish to pick up on something the Minister said. There has been cross-party work on this over recent years. Being a Deputy from the south east, I was amazed by the cross-party work on this specific issue by all political parties. Nobody played politics with it, at least not until the election of some new Members to the Dáil, albeit none from any political party. Ninety-nine per cent of the Oireachtas Members in the south east came together to work extremely hard on this project. I wish to acknowledge that.

Deputy Simon Harris

I agree with you, Chairman. I know Senator Malcolm Byrne could not be here, but it is only fair to acknowledge the role he played in chairing the cross-party groups. I wanted to say that in his absence. One of the keys to success when we got stuck at various moments was the fact that most people did not play politics with this issue - no political party did - and I wish to acknowledge that. I also thank the officials who have been working on this for a long time. I thank John McDermott to my right and Fiona O'Byrne in the Department, who have been driving this. Of all the technological universities, this project has required the most time and assistance from my Department officials and me, but it was worth it and was important to do because we see this as vital for the south east. We see it as more than that, though. We see it as an important piece of national infrastructure. I think IDA Ireland, to name just one agency, would very much agree with that. I acknowledge and thank my officials in the Department for their at times painstaking work in getting to this point.

Senator Eileen Flynn

I thank the Minister for coming before us. For the two years I have been here and for his two years in office, I have seen a lot of action on higher education in general, and I thank him for that.

As for the south-east university, I will be fast asking these questions. What special measures will be put in place for diversity? A lot of the time we look at pathways and access courses as the only way into university for people from ethnic minority groups and people with disabilities.

What special measures will be put in place? When we talk about enhanced digital capacity and plans to enhance the digital experience, we have not only seen issues with access to digital resources, but also that many people in rural Ireland, especially in Wexford and Waterford, have problems with broadband connectivity. How are we going to tackle that issue?

I welcome the establishment of the South East Technological University. Most importantly, I thank everybody involved in all the discussions on this issue. This will be a game changer in future. I have a related question that I am not even sure if I should ask. Regarding elections for the Seanad, and I am just asking this off the top of my head, will graduates of the technological universities be able to vote in them? I ask just out of curiosity and I apologise for doing so, because this is probably putting the Minister on the spot.

Deputy Simon Harris

I am getting the trickiest questions at the end. I thank Senator Flynn for her work and how it relates to my Department. I assure her there is an open door policy in my Department in respect of her work. We want to do whatever we can to learn from the Senator's work on diversity and inclusion. I found her recent address to the Dáil inspiring in regard to these issues and we are eager to work with her. I will answer her questions as best I can, but I would also like to learn from her insights into and understanding of these issues and how we can do more in this regard.

Regarding diversity and inclusion, the Technological Universities Act 2018 - and this is from memory because I do not have a copy in front of me - has specific provision for flexibility regarding the design of courses. There are a number of ways to increase access and inclusion, one of which is often to provide courses in a way that is flexible and can work for learners from a variety of backgrounds. Not everybody can pack their bags and head off to university for four years. The perception that that is what people must do can be a barrier. The Technological Universities Act 2018 requires that a certain number of courses be designed in a flexible manner. How we harness that is part of the answer to this question.

The broader answer, though, is not specific to the technological universities, but is more concerned with the new national access and inclusion plan we are likely to publish in the next month or so. I am pleased to say there is quite a bit of resourcing behind this plan. For example, €5 million is being provided this year, and the presumption is that €5 million will also be provided each year to 2025. In that plan, we will be setting new targets and objectives regarding what success in inclusion and access will look like over the next few years and what we must do to achieve them. I will be delighted to brief Senator Flynn, and the committee at the appropriate time, on that. It will be the vehicle through which we will try to drive this agenda.

On access to digital devices, I am proud that our Department and sector have provided free digital devices where required. This is something we could look at doing more broadly in parts of society. We purchased just under 17,000 laptops as part of our response to Covid-19 and gave them out, effectively, through access offices. One of the reasons I did that was because one of the first meetings I had was with representatives of Pavee Point. I remember meeting a young student at Maynooth University who told me she had to do her college thesis on her smartphone while sitting in the car. That is just unacceptable. She said having the laptop was transformational for her. The broadband issue is a little outside my remit. While there is a strong focus on remote working hubs, I think they should be referred to as remote working and learning hubs because they will help with the broadband issue in the interim as we roll them out to communities.

Senator Eileen Flynn

Yes.

Deputy Simon Harris

On the Seanad, I will get into all sorts of trouble no matter what answer I give. My starting principle is that I do not believe the franchise for either House should be linked to university qualifications. I cannot speak for the Government on this matter, but that is my view. How can I tell? We talk about apprenticeships and an apprenticeship is a third-level qualification. It is another way of getting a third-level qualification, but people who do apprenticeships do not get a vote for the Seanad. How then can we go into schools and talk about parity of esteem? My general point is that Seanad reform needs to be dealt with more broadly. There was a referendum many decades ago-----

Senator Eileen Flynn

Yes, there was.

Deputy Simon Harris

-----that did address as an interim measure, and I think this is the nub of the Senator's question, the extension of the franchise to graduates of other higher education institutions. That sounds like a sensible short-term step to me, but I will get a more substantive response for Senator Flynn because policy responsibility for this area, to the best of my knowledge, lies with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. I will respond to the Senator directly on this question.

Chairman

I did not see Senator Flynn indicating earlier, and I apologise for not letting her in sooner. I thank the Minister and his officials for attending today.