JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE AND SMALL BUSINESS debate -
Wednesday, 5 Mar 2003

Vol. 1 No. 5

Insurance Market Reform Programme: Presentation.

Chairman

I welcome the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and her officials to the meeting to discuss the Government's insurance market reform programme. For some time the committee has been interested in the insurance market and the problems faced by insurance providers and consumers. This is major business which for non-life insurance attracted premium income of approximately €3,400 million or almost 3% of GDP in 2001. The committee would like to see a thriving insurance market that is competitive and profitable and does not hinder the economic and social development of businesses and communities.

We have made the non-life insurance market the first priority of this committee with particular regard to the cost to small businesses of public and employers' liability insurance and the cost to the public of motor insurance. The committee will examine the work under way to implement the Government's insurance market reform and will hear from insurance providers and consumers on the pressures and impact of insurance costs on people's lives and businesses. We appreciate the Minister's attendance and look forward to hearing about the work under way to reform the insurance market. Members may then ask questions.

Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Ms Harney)

I am grateful to the committee for giving priority to the insurance issue during the lifetime of the current Dáil. It is, as I have said on many occasions recently, my number one political priority at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to drive the insurance reform agenda that is so important if we are to have more competition in the insurance market and reduced costs for all premium holders.

Non-life insurance in Ireland accounts for approximately 3% of GDP. The average household spends about €17 a week on non-life insurance costs. The cost for the average business is about €9,327 per year. These are very high costs and for many small businesses in particular it is often the second most expensive item. The current high cost of insurance in the Irish market is putting jobs at risk and is damaging the competitiveness of the economy. It is one of the most frequently raised issues with my Department by small and medium sized businesses throughout the country, for whom the cost of insurance is a huge burden.

We have talked a great deal in recent years about the nature of the reform package required. We have had discussions on books of quantum and establishing personal injuries tribunals or a personal injuries assessment board for the last 20 years. Many reports on these matters have been allowed to gather dust. The programme for Government gives strong commitments on these issues. We have established, within the Government, a ministerial committee chaired by me to drive the insurance reform agenda. Membership of that committee includes the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform who has enormous responsibilities in this area as far as court reform aspects are concerned, the Minister for Transport and me.

We have also established, on an interim basis, the Personal Injuries Assessment Board in advance of the legislation to deal with many of the logistical issues being passed by the Oireachtas. I attended the first formal meeting of that board within the last weeks. It is intended that the heads of the Bill for the Personal Injuries Assessment Board will be presented at the next meeting of the board. I hope to bring that to Cabinet before the summer. I will make a copy available to the committee whose comments I am anxious to receive. It is our intention to put that legislation before the Houses in early autumn and have it enacted by the end of this year so the PIAB can be established on a statutory basis. The Personal Injuries Assessment Board is but one aspect of the reform agenda. It is important for the reason that we need to provide a more informal way of settling claims. Where there is no issue of liability a paper based informal regime is more appropriate than the expensive court regime we have at the moment. The cost of delivering insurance claims in Ireland is excessively high and 42% of the cost is accounted for by the cost of expert witnesses etc. This adds enormously to the overall cost of insurance in Ireland. It is not insurance companies but premium holders who pay these high costs.

We have also huge issues in regard to fraudulent claims. The insurance federation estimates it could be as high as €100 million this year. We have no reason to believe that figure is too low or too high. It is probably a correct assessment. Many people take chances and it has been too easy, particularly in the past, for them to make fraudulent claims. This is not a victimless crime. It is a crime against society and I welcome the high profile national campaign the Irish Insurance Federation has recently launched urging citizens to contact a hot line number if they suspect a person is making a fraudulent claim. We have a duty as citizens to bring that information to the attention of the authorities.

I urge the insurance companies here this morning not to settle fraudulent claims. Sometimes an insurance company may take a short-term view in regard to a claim. It may feel it is quicker, easier or cheaper to settle the claim. In the medium to long-term that attitude helps to foster the culture of fraud and may even encourage people to take a fraudulent claim. We have emphasised in our reform agenda that affidavits will be introduced. If any part of an affidavit is incorrect or exaggerated the whole claim will fall. Our intention is to pursue those who seek to make fraudulent claims.

Many people are concerned that there are so few players in the Irish market. In certain niche markets there may be only one player. This is unsatisfactory. Both regular consumers and business customers only get real value when they have a choice in the range of services offered and the price at which they are offered. This is why we have asked the Competition Authority, in conjunction with the insurance policy division of my Department, to carry out a study. Most of the work for that will be done this year and I hope it will be to hand as quickly as possible. When we have the reform programme under way I intend to encourage companies that are not active in the Irish market to participate in it. I will use the influence Ministers can often bring to bear in these situations to encourage more active participation and interest by those who heretofore have not shown any interest in operating here.

Safety has a huge role to play in driving down the number and severity of accidents, particularly in regard to motor insurance. It is also relevant in regard to public liability and employers' liability insurance. The penalty point system seems to work well. There are issues about making information from that system available to insurance companies. The Minister for Transport wants a quid pro quo from the insurance companies and is currently in negotiation with them. He wants to make sure that if the information is made available they will reduce the premiums of those who do not receive penalty points and that they will use the data given to help drive down the cost of insurance. That is a sensible way forward. This issue has been raised by many Deputies in the House particularly by the Opposition spokespersons. The issues in regard to the Data Protection Act can be resolved easily but there are issues in regard to what the insurance companies are prepared to offer in return for access to this crucial information. The resolution of this issue will I hope have the effect of driving down the cost of premiums.

Chairman

Thank you Tánaiste. Dr. John Fingleton of the Competition Authority appeared before the committee yesterday to speak on the role of the authority and on the study into anti-competitive practices and marketing constraints in the non life insurance sector. Members were concerned about the level of independence available to the Competition Authority to undertake the study. We would like the Tánaiste to comment on the Department's role in the study and on the level of insurance expertise available to the Department. Will she explain how she as Minister will ensure that the study is an independent and objective examination of the insurance market and how the advice given by the authority to her is constrained by the Department's role in this study?

Deputy Harney

My Department has two roles in regard to the insurance industry at the moment. It has a regulatory role which will move to the new financial services regulatory authority in May or later this year when the legislation to establish the authority has passed through the Houses of the Oireachtas. It is right that all financial services should be regulated through a single authority. My Department also has a policy function in regard to insurance. It is in regard to the policy function that the issue of competition arises. The Department will not write the report. It has been involved with the Competition Authority in agreeing the criteria, terms of reference and related matters. The Department will not carry out the study. We, as much as an anybody else, want an independent study so that all the data is available to us on an independent basis. We want to see more players in the market. The more information we have and the more independent that information is, the more credibility it will have. Therefore, it will assist us in getting more players into the market.

I am not sure I understand the question but if the implication is that in some sense the report will be sanitised I assure the committee that nothing is further from the truth. It is normal, when bodies are making reports on behalf of Government, that the line Department with responsibility would be involved in some of the logistical issues. We will not be involved in the detailed work or in assembling the data or in doing the field work. That will be done by independent consultants on behalf of the authority.

Chairman

Members are keen and anxious that it is a fully independent and objective examination of the insurance market.

Deputy C. Lenihan

I welcome the Minister and thank her for her presentation.

Chairman

I remind members that we have only 25 minutes and I ask them to be brief.

Deputy C. Lenihan

Everybody would applaud how swiftly the Tánaiste dealt with the Dublin smog issue many years ago. We feel that rapid action is necessary also on this issue. Are there any measures the Tánaiste can announce ahead of the publication of this study? The Tánaiste mentioned the book of quantum but it is not part of her action plan for reform. What consideration is being given to that? It should be considered seriously and there should be specific levels of awards for specific types of injury. Why is it that health insurance is to remain outside the ambit of the health regulator? Health insurance is a competitive insurance business and issue arises in regard to the Department being both regulator and policy initiator. What are the Tánaiste's views on that?

Deputy Hogan

I welcome the Tánaiste. When will the report on the PIAB implementation group be published? Could we have an interim report to see how matters are progressing in regard to the drafting of legislation which she said she would like to see in operation by autumn 2003? I am interested in her market intervention approach in regard to insurance companies. How will she wield the big stick if insurance companies do not comply with her wishes?

Deputy T. Dempsey

Like the other members, I thank the Tánaiste for coming. Should this committee take a particular line of action on insurance? Is it possible to give a comparison between the profits made by companies with similar per unit costs in Britain and Ireland? I want to establish if companies here are making excessive profits. I know the Tánaiste has taken a personal interest in trying to address the problems of escalating insurance costs and the job losses they cause. What would represent success for the Tánaiste? For example, this year premiums have increased for some companies by 150%. Would a stabilising of costs satisfy the Tánaiste or can she see a return to the costs of two years ago?

Chairman

Does the Minister wish to respond to those questions?

Ms Harney

We do not have much data at present. We have to operate at two levels. The PIAB, the interim group, will be working on the book of quantum in conjunction with the Courts Service to get as much data as possible. The intention is not to reduce the awards going to genuine claimants, but to reduce the costs of delivering those awards to bring more efficiency to the delivery process and to bring more uniformity. At the moment there is huge inconsistency between the awards given for very similar injuries by different members of the Judiciary. That is an issue the Courts Service and the Judiciary are addressing. I know the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has particular views on those matters. At the first formal meeting of the PIAB, this matter was on the agenda. I do not know if the committee will be meeting the chairperson of the PIAB or having any engagement with that board, but I am sure it would be delighted to brief the committee on the book of quantum.

Deputy Conor Lenihan asked what could be done in advance of some of the legislative measures being introduced. We have already introduced a regulation requiring insurance companies to give 15 days notice and details of the no claims bonus. That is to help facilitate people shopping around.

I was asked what level of costs I would be happy with. I do not want to pin myself to 10%, 20% or any other figure. I will be happy when we genuinely have an insurance market in Ireland where the premium costs to policyholders compare with other European countries. That means substantial reductions in many respects. We cannot put the cart before the horse. Unless we drive the reforms we will not see major progress. We will not see new players in many segments of the market. For the first time I am pleased to see insurance companies are at least talking about freezing motor premiums. In one or two cases they may even reduce them. It is a long time since we have seen that happen. We are beginning to see some progress.

Even if it was considered desirable, the market should be allowed to operate here. In any event under EU law, I do not have the power it introduce price controls on insurance premiums, so I do not have that stick to wave. There are more ways than one to skin a cat. Insurance companies for their success depend on the success of our economy. They are major players in the economy. They have wider responsibilities to the economy, which, to be fair, the members of the insurance federation understand. In time I hope I will not have to explain to the committee why I was so naïve. If we deliver our side of the bargain I would be happy to put my faith in the insurance companies delivering the reductions in the premiums we all expect. In any event a reformed market will encourage some new entrants from other European countries.

Deputy Howlin

There is a consensus among all members here that this is the most pressing issue now affecting employment in the State. Small and medium size companies are telling us directly they cannot wait a year for another analysis. The Tánaiste has broken down her programme into two sections, the investigation of the competitiveness of the market, which is a longer-term process, and the functioning of the market, which is more immediate. I have met many people who have moved away from unemployment but cannot get affordable insurance to start up a company. While I do not want to touch on ideological matters, does the Tánaiste believe she has a role to intervene directly in the market to provide some basic cover to allow such entrepreneurs to get started?

The personal injuries assessment board is one of the big ideas. What is the Tánaiste's opinion of our experience of assessment tribunals for injury and compensation given that it is not possible to abrogate the right of people to go to court subsequently? Such tribunals might simply represent an additional layer with people subsequently going to court and still incurring the legal cost which the PIAB estimates at up to 42% in addition to compensation. How will the Tánaiste address that? Will she bring the heads of the Bill to this committee shortly after they are approved by Government?

The Tánaiste mentioned some issues outside her remit in the justice area. Is it the Government's intention to address the issue of fraud through a new perjury Bill, which is something that has been put strongly to us? There is an absolute requirement for consistency in judicial awards. There is now more than anecdotal evidence of people waiting for specific judges to deal with particular cases. Can a judicial conduct proposal be fast-tracked and brought forward to this year from next year, when I believe it is due to be considered?

Deputy Callanan

I welcome the Minister and compliment her on making insurance her top priority. As she said at the outset, the high cost of insurance is now costing us jobs. It is important we do something about it. Yesterday Dr. Fingleton told us there are five major players in motor insurance here. I am aware of two brothers, one who lives here and the other in Scotland. One received a motor insurance quotation of €4,000 here and the other was quoted £800. Can a person get a quotation from outside the country? I am sure some people have already done so. Are such quotations as high as those given by the players here? Is it because the system for compensation, etc. abroad is cheaper that their premiums are less?

Deputy McHugh

Yesterday the chairman of the Competition Authority told us the joint study being carried out would not be completed for a year. I fear that much damage will have occurred in the meantime, particularly to jobs and business. Could that study be expedited?

Chairman

He also made it clear that an early report could be brought forward on certain parts, particularly employers' liability and public liability.

Ms Harney

As I indicated earlier, I certainly will not interfere with the manner in which the report is produced. However, it might be a good idea to bring the information that becomes available to the attention of the committee and others as quickly as possible. Although a year sounds a long time, if we get the appropriate data, which have the effect of encouraging more players and greater competition, and if they identify barriers to competition and anti-competitive behaviour, the report will have been worthwhile.

In relation to Deputy Howlin's questions, under our current constitutional arrangements the PIAB cannot stop people from going to the courts if they are not satisfied, nor would I wish it to do so. The issue is to provide the credibility whereby people will accept the outcome at the PIAB. For example, if somebody took the view that the courts would give a higher award, it would be difficult to encourage such a person to follow the PIAB route.

Deputy Howlin

People may be persuaded by lawyers.

Ms Harney

Lawyers can be persuasive but most people prefer to avoid a court environment if they can. The issue is one of credibility. In the employment area, for example, the regime works extremely well, to the satisfaction of both employers and employees. I believe the members of the PIAB are well aware of the credibility aspect. There is a good balance on the interim board, with people of various perspectives, including two members of ICTU, one of whom is a Member of the Seanad. That has helped to promote the credibility of the PIAB with employees and the intention is to start with employers' liability insurance. When I bring forward the heads of the Bill, I will be glad to make them available to the committee for comment and suggestions.

With regard to market intervention and start-up companies, past experience of State involvement in that area has been very expensive and not very successful, such as through Fóir Teoranta in helping to bail out unsuccessful companies. At the end of the day, taxpayers carried the can for that. I prefer to follow the reform route rather than have the taxpayers carry the can for the insurance of, even, start-ups. I acknowledge the difficulties to which Deputy Howlin referred. However, I do not believe the solution lies in the State offering cover, but rather in carrying out the necessary reforms to have a market comparable to other European countries.

In relation to outside players in the insurance market, the reality is that people will not enter a market if they cannot make money. The particular structural issues in the Irish market are the reason our premiums are so much out of line with other countries. In all countries around the world, with the events of September 11 and the stock market decline, premiums have increased. In our situation, the base was so high already that premiums have literally gone through the roof. That underlines the importance of reform.

On the perjury issue, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform intends to introduce a single Bill. This was discussed at our ministerial meeting last week and the Minister for Transport will bring forward legislation in relation to road traffic issues, which will also deal with the perjury-related issue. The intention is that people will be pursued for perjury in case of fraudulent claims. That is the only way to root out the existing element of fraud. Some people appear to take the erroneous view that cheating an insurance company is not the same as stealing from one's neighbours. The reality, of course, is that such fraudulent claims are reflected in higher premiums for everybody.

The intention is that people will sign an affidavit. If any part of it is false or incorrect or if exaggerated claims are made in relation to their pain, suffering or injuries, then the whole claim will fail and defendants will be allowed their costs. The issue in relation to costs is important. When an insurance company is going to carry the costs, claimants may be prepared to take their chances. Under the new regime, that will not be the case.

Senator Leyden

I welcome the Minister and commend her on making this a priority issue in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. It has been one of the most difficult issues for Government in a number of years. The report was published in 1996, some moves towards implementation were taken by the Government in 2002 and the Bill has yet to be prepared. While I appreciate the time factors involved, I urge the Minister and her officials to give this matter absolute priority by bringing the Bill before the Oireachtas. Of all the initiatives being taken, including investigations of which there are far too many in progress——

Chairman

I ask the Senator to be brief as time is of the essence.

Senator Leyden

I appreciate that, Chairman. However, it does not appear that time has been of the essence in regard to this issue. It has been on hand for a very long time.

Chairman

There is other important business in the Dáil at 10.30 a.m. The Senator, as a former Member of that House, will appreciate that.

Senator Leyden

Yes. I was also in the Department for some time. I urge the Tánaiste to move this Bill forward as quickly as possible. Without legislative backing, the PIAB will not have the authority to operate effectively. The experience has been that insurance companies do not always respond to Government initiatives. The Tánaiste will recall that when we reduced the number of barristers to appear in court cases, the expected reduction in insurance premiums did not materialise. The reality is that for as long as we have a situation such as last weekend, when six people died in road accidents, insurance costs will still rise. We have to focus on keeping down costs and avoiding carnage on our roads. I commend the Minister's work and I expect this committee and both Houses of the Oireachtas will be very supportive of the Bill when it is introduced.

Deputy Lynch

I welcome the Minister and I am glad that, at long last, this has become a priority issue. No doubt, the experience of knocking on doors during the last election helped to underline its importance. I am concerned that, although the main issue is the high cost of insurance, several speakers have focused on the issue of fraudulent claims. We have to keep in mind that accidents occur and people incur serious injuries, whether through their own negligence or that of others. Some insurance companies, despite personal approaches, refuse to settle claims and are very difficult to deal with. Consequently, people are virtually forced into employing solicitors, even when they do not wish to do so. I hope the Minister is not overlooking that aspect of the matter. It is not simply a matter of ensuring that people are dealt with as swiftly as possible. What impression will go out if people decide they wish to go to court? Is it to be automatically assumed that they are in some way shady, or that they are not prepared to go before a panel of their peers? We must be very careful as to how we deal with this. The subject under investigation will be the insurance industry.

Chairman

I welcome Deputy Blaney who is not a member of this committee but has a great interest in the insurance industry and the difficulties people are experiencing. He has a question for the Tánaiste.

Deputy Blaney

Thank you, Chairman. I welcome the opportunity of attending this meeting. I am particularly pleased the Minister is tackling the issue head-on and I wish to raise a few points. The legal profession has a few questions to answer in relation to insurance claims. Does the report tackle the legal profession on such aspects as advertising on the basis of "no win, no fee"? That is one of the reasons for the present bad state of insurance in this country. Will the market be more open to competition from outside the country? Has the Tánaiste a timeframe for implementation of changes? Can we introduce some curb on cost increases? Insurance companies have, to some extent, played on the events of September 11 as an opportunity to increase premiums.

Senator Hanafin

I welcome the Minister. She has rightly highlighted insurance costs as a very serious impediment to employment. I have in mind, in particular, a project for a go-kart track in Dunkerrin, County Tipperary, which was grant-aided by the county enterprise board but cannot get insurance cover.

I wish to refer to the success of the penalty points system which, if extrapolated on a full year basis, would bring this country in line with Sweden and the UK in terms of losses. That is a wonderful success for this Government. Is there any other European model we can look to with regard to the insurance industry? What are the features and benefits of a European model that the Minister would wish us to move towards? It should be a model that would not cost jobs, be cost-effective in terms of competition and not as expensive as the Irish model.

Senator Coghlan

I welcome the Minister to the committee and thank her for her endeavours to date. I note that ten of the MIAB action plan recommendations have been implemented. What timescale does the Tánaiste envisage for implementation of the remaining 67 recommendations? What timescale is envisaged for the Bill on the Ombudsman's scheme in the commerce and industry panels? What efforts, if any, are being made to bring about a more consistent approach in the area of judicial awards?

Deputy Wilkinson

I welcome the Tánaiste. I am delighted this serious issue has been given priority. Time is of the essence is this regard. I realise that paperwork takes time but it is one of the most serious issues facing the country. Many community groups find it very difficult to raise funding and pay the increased cost of insurance. People who are doing an enormous amount of voluntary work are crippled by this. Some small businesses are now operating without insurance, which is of great concern. I reiterate that time is of the essence and the committee should do everything it can to fast-track this matter.

Ms Harney

Senator Leyden made the point that when the two senior counsels rule was abolished, the insurance companies did not pass on the saving to the premium holders. The legal fees for one senior counsel doubled and, since the junior counsel was getting one third of the senior's fee, the overall legal cost increased.

With regard to advertising by solicitors, a matter raised by Deputy Blaney, the Law Society has introduced new regulations in conjunction with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I heard a good discussion a few week's ago on "Morning Ireland" between the director of the Law Society and a solicitor who was allegedly unhappy with the new regulations. However, the advertising the Deputy referred to is now prohibited.

I agree with Deputy Lynch that there are genuine cases of injury and nobody is trying to deny such people their entitlements. I emphasis that the purpose of the PIAB is not to reduce the awards that go to genuine claimants but to reduce the cost of delivering to those claimants, and to have a speedier, more efficient and less formal way of delivering entitlements. However, it would be wrong to assume that the cost of fraudulent claims does not impact on the cost of insurance - it does. If the level of fraud is €100 million, which is the insurance federation estimate, policyholders are paying for that by way of higher premium costs. It is in everyone's interest to root out fraud and to deal seriously with it as policy-holders are being defrauded.

The courts should only be a place of last resort with regard to the settlement of claims. Liability is a matter for the courts but it is intended that mediation will occur before people go before a judge, and a judge will only be involved as a last resort in determining the level of the claim or the issues surrounding liability. That is as it should be. Judges are not appointed to decide what a broken leg or back is worth; they have no greater expertise in that than other experts. In time, it is my intention that the PIAB will be part of the courts infrastructure. It will not be a stand-alone body attached to another organ of the State but will be under the remit of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Obviously, it must be up and running, with experience and credibility, before that scenario can be arrived at.

There are other insurance models. Cars could be insured rather than individual drivers, and premiums could be abandoned and the cost of insurance carried by increases in taxes on petrol. The big difference between mainland European countries and Ireland is that insurance is carried through the social security system in Europe and the state carries a higher proportion of the cost there. A new official in my Department, Mr. Stephen Watkins, has been assigned responsibility for driving this agenda and he would be delighted to make himself available to the committee from time to time. It might be a good idea for the committee to seek a report every six weeks or so on the progress being made in this area. The momentum must be kept up. This is not a party political or Government issue but one that involves everybody. There are genuine concerns on all sides of the Houses and Members are not seeking to score political points because it has gone beyond that.

I have a note which mentions the phrase, "forced into the arms of a solicitor". I do not want to force anyone into anyone else's arms, though the legal profession has an important role to play in this regard. However, the PIAB will be a piece of infrastructure that might not require as many lawyers as is the norm in other places. That might be no bad thing. There is a lot of work for lawyers in Ireland and a particularly buoyant employment market in the legal profession at present.

Lawyers should not necessarily be involved every time somebody seeks to make a claim. It may well be that people will need some legal assistance when compiling application forms for the PIAB but it is intended that the PIAB system will be paper based, not a forum for people to come before in an advocacy role. Matters will be dealt with behind closed doors by a group of appropriate citizens with the credibility to ensure that people will want their claims dealt with in that way. I know that the PIAB is very concerned about this issue.

I thank the committee for its invitation. I will make the heads of the Bill available to it, with any other information regarding the progress being made. I chaired the ministerial committee on insurance and it would be no bad thing if the other relevant Ministers - the Ministers for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Transport - came to talk to the committee with regard to their part of the reform agenda. The ministerial committee met last week and will meet again during March, and it hopes to meet with the insurance federation on that occasion. Ms Dorothea Dowling of the PIAB attended last week's meeting. We are trying to work with the different elements involved with this reform and it would be good if the Committee on Enterprise and Small Business were to meet with the other Ministers, though that is a matter for the committee. I appreciate what the committee is trying to do to highlight the high cost of insurance and to give its support to the reform agenda.

Chairman

The other Ministers have agreed to come before the committee to give it their full support. All members of the committee are seriously concerned that the high cost of insurance will result in job losses. I can sum up this meeting by saying that time is of the essence. It is particularly important when one considers that the global employment market is so soft. Members of this committee, who come from all parts of the country, have tried to emphasise to the Government and especially the Minister, Deputy Harney, that family businesses and SMEs are in a troubled position. They will be unable to stay in business if insurance costs remain at the present high level.

On behalf of the members of the committee, I thank the Minister for attending this meeting. We look forward to working in conjunction with her on many occasions during the next few years. Members hope to assist her by giving her the benefit of the practical experience of our day-to-day handling of constituency matters. We support the Government's attempt to deal with the insurance industry for once and for all.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.25 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 12 March 2003.