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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE AND SMALL BUSINESS debate -
Wednesday, 16 Jul 2003

Vol. 1 No. 22

Reform of the Irish Insurance Market: Presentations.

Today's meeting is the committee's seventh public hearing on the reform of certain aspects of the Irish insurance market. I welcome back Mr. Myles O'Reilly of O'Reilly Consultants, together with his colleague, Mr. Joseph McGrath. I propose to take the presentation of the Law Society of Ireland before that of the Bar Council. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or of an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members who wish to make a declaration in relation to any matter being discussed may do so now or at the beginning of their contribution. Members are also reminded that if there is a possibility of a conflict of interest, they should make a declaration of the interest at the start of their contribution. I repeat my declaration, made at the last meeting, that I have a professional interest in insurance and its reform as a member of the Irish Hotels Federation.

From the Law Society, I welcome Ms Geraldine Clarke, president; Mr. Ken Murphy, director general, and Mr. Ward McEllin, chairman of the society's task force on personal injury litigation. From the Bar Council, I welcome Mr. Conor Maguire, chairman; Mr. Jerry Carroll, director, and Mr. Hugh Mohan SC. Members will be invited to make contributions and ask questions.

I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. While it is generally accepted that witnesses have qualified privilege, the committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to those appearing before it.

Ms Geraldine Clarke

I thank the chairman and members for inviting the Law Society to outline its perspective on insurance reform. I am accompanied by the chairman of the society's task force on personal injury law reform, Mr. Ward McEllin, and the director general, Mr. Ken Murphy.

The Law Society and its individual members, as business people and consumers, have long recognised that there is a crisis in insurance. The society's own premium increased by 400% between 2000 and 2003 from €57,000 to €285,000 in the context of a claims free record. As has been recognised by the insurance industry in its submissions to the committee, many different factors have led to this crisis including international developments affecting insurance generally, lack of competition in the insurance market, the profitability of insurance companies operating here, the high level of accidents and the costs of personal injury litigation. The Law Society has advocated reform of personal injuries litigation for many years and warmly recommends the vast majority of the proposals advanced last week by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell. The society has practical concerns about aspects of the Minister's reform programme, particularly the shortening of limitation periods which, in some cases, may cause practical difficulties for some claimants.

The Law Society is anxious to play its role in controlling insurance costs. Only one of the recommendations of the MIAB report was directed at the Law Society and I am glad to tell the committee the recommendation has been implemented in full. The society introduced regulations on 1 February 2003 prohibiting personal injury advertising by solicitors and has adopted a very strict approach to enforcing the ban. The society will not tolerate any breaches of the regulations.

The Law Society notes the publication of the heads of the Bill to establish the personal injury assessment board on a statutory basis. According to the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, the sole purpose of the PIAB is to deliver reductions in insurance premiums in the context of a more cost effective system for the delivery of compensation. The membership of the society hopes the Minister is correct in this assertion and that the PIAB when established will meet the considerable expectations which have been generated in respect of its role. The society, however, is sceptical. It is notable that no cost-benefit analysis has been carried out prior to its establishment to assess whether or not the board will deliver compensation more efficiently and effectively. Its ultimate test will be the making of savings and a fall in the cost of insurance premiums. Unfortunately, the insurance industry has form in terms of failing to pass on savings. We have witnessed instances of major reforms of civil litigation in the context of promises to reduce premiums by the insurance industry. The industry promised that savings following the abolition of juries in personal injury cases would lead to reduced insurance premiums, but a decade later consumers are still waiting.

It is imperative that the PIAB should operate fairly for the benefit of claimants and those against whom claims are made. The board should not constitute another layer of bureaucracy and an added cost in the system and it must not discriminate between people of means and the less well off. I note with concern the remarks yesterday by the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment that claimants whose cases are being considered by the PIAB will not be entitled to any payment in respect of the legal representation required to process their personal injury assessment. This will lead to a situation where claimants who have money may seek representation while claimants with less money will be forced to process their claims alone. The absence of provision for legal representation for claimants will introduce discrimination on the basis of means, which is unfair. If the current system is to be changed - and there is recognition that change is required - it is important that the new processes and procedures operate effectively in the interests of victims also.

It is interesting that the one grouping and vested interest that has not articulated its position in this debate is composed of genuine claimants. While the Law Society agrees that spurious and dishonest claims should be eliminated from the system of personal injuries litigation, it should not be the case that genuine claimants suffer any disadvantage as a consequence of these reforms. Each of us knows family members, friends, neighbours, or indeed, constituents who have suffered personal injuries and loss as a result of the negligence of others. When we talk about claims and claimants, we are talking about people who have often suffered difficult and traumatic personal experiences through injury. In some cases, these have been the most traumatic experiences of their lives. These people should be no worse off as a result of these reforms.

Imbalance in the public debate on this issue has led to an imbalance in the changes being introduced. Victims of accidents have not been heard. The society notes that even this committee has met only with what might broadly be described as defence interests in personal injury claims, including representatives of business, the insurance industry and the State.

So far.

Ms Clarke

So far.

And with the Law Society.

Ms Clarke

Unlike other vested interests whose views are being heard by the committee, the victims of accidents have no organised voice. As a result, there is a tendency to ignore their interests. It is noteworthy that the only organised classes of victims - gardaí, prison officers and civil servants covered by State compensation schemes - are specifically excluded from the remit of the PIAB. It would be possible for committee members, collectively or individually, to meet with people who have been victims of accidents and whose lives have been devastated as a result. The Law Society urges the committee to do so before reaching the conclusion that the current system is unfair to those who cause accidents.

Interestingly, since the publication of the Motor Insurance Advisory Board's report last year there has been less focus on the profitability of the insurance industry in Ireland. It is important to recall that the profits of the insurance industry in Ireland over a 16-year period have been of the order of ten times the profit levels of the insurance industry in Britain. It is against this backdrop that we must seek firm and cast iron commitments from the insurance industry that lower premiums will follow from any reduction in the costs of litigation.

It is clear that Government is unable to force the insurance companies to reduce their premia and attempts to secure voluntary reductions by the Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan, have met with a mixed response from the sector. If we are to alter the current system of personal injuries litigation for a system that remains to be assessed on a cost-benefit basis, we should at least be demanding that any savings secured as a result of the reforms go directly and immediately to premium payers as distinct from the shareholders of these insurance companies.

From the Law Society's part, we look forward to playing a constructive role in helping reduce insurance costs in Ireland. As I stated earlier, we have already implemented the recommendation that the MIAB report directed to us. I reiterate that, it is vital in this debate that the genuine claimant does not suffer any loss or diminution in his or her current position as a result of these reforms. It is equally important that upstanding and conscientious solicitors can continue to represent such genuine claimants through a fair, effective and efficient system for delivering compensation.

Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee, thank you for your attention. We look forward to answering your questions.

Thank you very much Ms Clarke. We now come to the presentation of the Bar Council which will be made by Mr. Maguire.

Mr. Conor Maguire

I have copies of the presentation which can be circulated to committee members.

That would be a great help.

Mr. Maguire

If there is one message that we, as barristers, want to get across, it is that, like the Law Society, we are unequivocally in favour of reform. In respect of the analysis that has come about in regard to the problem of high insurance premiums, it is clear that we have a part to play. In her analysis, Dorothea Dowling pointed out that there are three real ingredients in relation to this; the question of the cost of delivery; safety, be that for the driver or employer, and the role of insurance companies. I listened with interest to the submission by the president of the Law Society. It will become apparent that there is a lot in common between the Bar Council and the Law Society but the submissions were separately prepared.

So there is no truth in the rumour that there could be a merger at any stage?

Ms Clarke

Not at the moment.

Mr. Maguire

No.

There was no collaboration?

Mr. Maguire

There was no collaboration in the presentation I am about to make. To a certain extent, we find ourselves questioning the value of what we are doing here.

We do that constantly.

Mr. Maguire

In one sense, it appears that the whole thing is set in stone, in other words that it is an irrevocable course. I understand that the setting up of the PIAB has gone to the heads of Bill stage. This morning we met with the Minister and her PIAB committee. The heads of Bill have gone to the parliamentary draftsman to prepare the Bill proper.

We want to be logical and consistent in the way we have approached this and I think that you will see from what I have to say that this is the case. I hope that will come across. The committee has already received our written submission of 28 March. The key aspects of that were: the findings and recommendations of the cost benefit analysis of PIAB carried out by Peter Bacon and Associates for the Bar Council; the outcome of our researches on the cost of lawyers' fees in personal injuries cases and the impact of such fees on PIAB, and the Bar Council's proposals for the reform of the existing court-based litigation system.

I propose to review the Bar Council's position on the insurance issue generally and the establishment of PIAB, in particular, and to address the issue of barristers' costs in personal injuries litigation and make some concluding remarks. Members will have read the submission and I will not repeat what we stated in that.

It is clear that from the outset the debate about the high cost of insurance premiums has been an emotive one. With the publication of the MIAB report and the passage of time, however, the issues have become clearer and the reasons for the problem of high insurance more transparent. Initially, the high cost of awards and the legal costs associated with personal injuries litigation were advanced as the cause of all our woes. The simple answer proposed was to make the personal injuries litigation process a "lawyer free zone". We still find that we are pointed out by the insurance companies as being the cause of the problem. I think the committee will take a different view when it hears what I have to say in regard to some recent matters. On the basis of a cost-benefit analysis of PIAB carried out for the Bar Council and the statistical data forced from the Irish Insurance Federation, IIF, by MIAB, the real situation is beginning to emerge.

The findings of the Bacon report were that PIAB, if established, would introduce a new and unnecessary layer of bureaucracy at considerable cost to the State. Projected costs of between €l0 million and €30 million to establish PIAB have been suggested with an estimated ongoing cost of €7 - €8 million per annum and this is likely to escalate dramatically. Things are not generally reduced from the original estimate, particularly when it comes to this type of project. The die had been cast and, in the absence of their own cost-benefit analysis, the simplest approach for the policy makers was to plough ahead regardless. That, in effect, is what is happening at present. The logical analysis by Peter Bacon notwithstanding, the Government is relentlessly pursuing the establishment of PIAB. Apart from the cost factor, the system as proposed in the recently published draft heads of Bill highlight serious deficiencies in PIAB.

Statistics were published about legal costs in relation to personal injuries litigation. The Bar Council has consistently refuted the figures in relation to legal costs which had been put into the public arena by the IIF and were subsequently used by other interested groups. Early in the debate, grossly distorted statistics in relation to legal costs were issued by the IIF which has since admitted that the figures it gave were incorrect. The Irish Times of 3 October 2002 carried an article under the headline, “Insurance Federation paid less in legal costs than stated”. The first paragraph of that article stated: “The Irish Insurance Federation has admitted it paid far less in legal costs last year than the €440 million it declared to the Ta?naiste.” We have given a separate analysis of the falsity in regard to the publication of figures about costs so I will not go into that in detail now unless members particularly want me to do so. IBEC and even the Government have issued grossly exaggerated figures. The Bar Council’s memorandum on legal costs, which the committee has before it, sets out the position.

I note that at a recent meeting with the joint committee, the Small Firms Association called on the Government to cap or end the insurance levy which they say is currently generating €65 million for the Exchequer and thus adding to the cost of insurance. At the same meeting, ISME separately blamed the insurance industry for profiteering on the backs of the business community. The latter called on the Government to establish an independent committee to monitor the industry's pricing and ensure cost savings from reform and other favourable changes were passed to the customers. ISME also called for a root and branch investigation by the Competition Authority into all areas associated with the insurance industry. We would welcome such an investigation. If members look at it from our perspective, and I know we do not have all the friends in the world when we are arguing on this point, what has been put up against us by the Insurance Federation is nothing short of ridiculous in respect of its analysis of costs.

I will next deal with the problems of PIAB. Members will appreciate that we have already analysed this matter and given the detail of it to the committee. As far as we are concerned there are fundamental problems with it. It can operate successfully only if there are higher awards. Otherwise, it will not be attractive. Members will be aware that there is an optional system. In other words, when one makes the claim, one does so through PIAB automatically. It makes a decision and the parties have an option whether to accept it. If the awards are lower than those they are likely to receive in the courts, they will not accept them. Therefore, for the system to work, it seems that there should be a higher award available through the PIAB, thereby pushing up the cost of insurance premia. Alternatively, if the assessment board were to reduce the level of awards, appeals would be made to the court, thereby introducing a new layer of bureaucracy and increasing the expense of the litigation.

From whatever perspective, the introduction of the new, additional system will generate competing jurisdiction, to the detriment of reform. One of the issues that arose in the meeting we had this morning with the Minister and the relevant committee was that they were inclined to describe it as a parallel system. We believe that it will not work in parallel - the two systems will be working against each other. If this is the case it will have to be paid for, which begs the question as to who will do so.

Apart from cost considerations, the PIAB, as proposed in the draft Personal Injuries Assessment Board Bill, has other deficiencies. The system will be paper based. It is not clear from the heads of the Bill how PIAB will operate or provide a quality service across the country to those who have been injured. Will it have offices throughout the country to assist and advise members of the public who are making a valid claim?

The court system currently handles more than 30,000 claims per year. It flies in the face of good administration to replace the existing decentralised approach, to which members of the public have direct access and under which they are assured of having their rights protected. Contrast this with the centralised system, as proposed in respect of the PIAB, which has not yet been properly defined or costed.

The PIAB will undoubtedly require major investment in a large number of staff and other resources. The committee will be aware of the cost of a civil servant. The usual method of estimating this is to add his or her annual salary to approximately 50% of this salary for overheads and multiply the total by 40, which is the lifetime of a Civil Service career. This is one of the costs that should be taken into consideration.

Interestingly, provisions in the Bill in respect of superannuation are very much to the fore. One wonders about the real view on how much the PIAB will cost. Why is it necessary to look at superannuation if it will not cost anything? It is utter nonsense on the part of policy makers not to face up to the cost of setting up PIAB. It is difficult to understand why the Government, at a time of scarce resources, remains implacably against the undertaking of such a cost-benefit analysis. The absence of such an analysis is even more stark when one takes into account that the implementation group, in reporting on the PIAB, "could not predict with certainty the level of savings" and simply assumed savings approaching 50%.

Fraudulent and exaggerated claims can be tackled only in open court under investigation. The PIAB involves a paper based system with no investigative process and it will not achieve the outcome of the courts. In fact, it will operate as an incentive to increase litigation, with no vetting process in place. Fraud and exaggeration will go undetected, and this must not be permitted.

Another area of considerable concern is the presence of a member of the IIF on the board of PIAB, sitting in judgment on whether IIF companies pay out or save money. Surely it cannot be fair to operate the system in this way.

In Ireland, unlike other European countries with assessment boards, the personal injuries system is private sector based. This is one of the fundamentals and is dealt with in Bacon's report. It is based on insurance rather than on social security and public health care. It is based on the latter in other EU states. Thus, for the PIAB to operate like such boards do elsewhere, the social security system will require reform. Peter Bacon estimated that the cost of radical reform of the social security system required to facilitate the effective functioning of an assessment board such as PIAB would be in excess of €2.9 billion per annum, together with the expansion of the entitlements to public health care. Bacon concluded that, in the current financial climate, such an approach would be prohibitively expensive. This is not what is proposed by PIAB under the heads of the Bill. In fact, it borrows from a public based system, takes it over and includes it as an extra layer in our system, which is a private based system.

The Bar Council is absolutely and unequivocally in favour of reform. It has recognised that the present system, operated in the High and Circuit Courts in respect of actions for compensation for personal injuries, could and should be improved and it has advocated the reform of the system. In making the proposals for reform, the council hopes to achieve the following: to make the system work more efficiently, effectively at no extra cost; to reduce the cost of litigation; to help eliminate fraud or deliberately exaggerated claims; to have a degree of conformity in respect of the size of awards; to shorten the time between the inception and conclusion of a claim. In order to achieve the above objectives, the Bar Council has suggested changes, including the following: the amendment of the statutory limitations, new rules in relation to processing and personal injury claims, permitting each side in an action to address the court on quantum; the introduction of legislation to deal with fraudulent or deliberately exaggerated claims; and updating the law with regard to perjury. The proposals have been presented to the Ministers for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the chairman of the committee on court practice and procedure and the chairman of the interim PIAB. They are publicly available and we are delighted to give them to people who are interested in them.

Our submission to the joint committee has already dealt with these proposals in turn and I do not intend to refer to them in detail. If any member has questions on them, we will certainly deal with them. Suffice it to say that the bulk of our proposals have now been reflected in the draft General Scheme of Civil Liability and Courts Bill, published very recently by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. As has been our contention all along, the revision of court rules can be implemented at no cost to the State. Such reforms will undoubtedly lead to a much less costly method of handling personal injuries litigation, thus eliminating the need for PIAB.

Regarding personal injury claims, the following developments have taken place over the past six months. I can speak with some authority on this matter because, in order to be here, I came back from Galway, where personal injury cases are taking place over two weeks. It is of relevance in light of problems associated with the setting of levels of damages in euro at an equivalent level to what one would have expected in punts. The numbers have changed but the actual damages have, in real terms, decreased by approximately 27%.

Have you evidence to present to the committee to back that up?

Who has set the awards?

Mr. Maguire

They are not set. It is a question of negotiation, obviously, and awards by the courts in respect of this negotiation.

Who decided it?

Allow Mr. Maguire to conclude. If he has evidence to back up his allegation, the committee would like to hear it.

Mr. Maguire

I have no difficulty in dealing with it now.

I do because I am chairing the proceedings. I forgot to say that each delegate has 15 minutes in which to make a presentation. The time has almost elapsed. The committee is very anxious to hear Mr. Maguire back up what he has said before we finish our deliberations.

Mr. Maguire

Can I deal with it in this way? Rather than deal with it now, can I return to it when I have made my opening remarks, thus allowing me enough time to finish my presentation?

There has been a consistent decline in the number of claims. A stringent approach by the courts to personal injuries cases coming before them has been evident but there has been no reduction in insurance premia, nor have any reductions been promised by the insurance companies. The committee should be aware that barristers' fees account for 3.5% on either side in personal injuries cases. These figures are from the MIAB report itself. In the value-added chain relating to personal injuries, the barrister is at the end of the process and it is accepted that they represent good value for money. I also wish to emphasise that barristers' fees have not increased over the last number of years. In such circumstances, we are completely baffled as to the reason for the frequently quoted 300% increase in some insurance premiums which is laid directly at the doors of both professions.

The Bar Council met earlier this morning with the ministerial committee on insurance reform. At that meeting we strongly recommended that the Government carry out its own cost-benefit analysis of PIAB before investing heavily in staff and other resources for the board. It does not make sense to proceed with the introduction of a process which is likely to be another expensive layer in the system at a time of competing demands for the scarce resources available. Recent developments in the insurance market, taken in conjunction with the changes in court practice and procedure in personal injuries cases will meet all the objectives of PIAB and at no cost to the taxpayer.

The Bar Council calls on the insurance industry to examine its conscience and state the real reasons for the high costs of insurance - the drop in the value of the reserves of insurance companies due to the decline in equities as well as the lower investment returns which companies can achieve due to low interest rates. The IIF has distorted the figures over and over again. Companies continue to declare huge profits. For example, AXA made €57 million in 2002, according to the edition of The Irish Times, dated 4 July 2003 - a year in which it was supposedly suffering from flood damage, the events of September 11 and high accident claims and stock market losses, all of which they claimed were high legal costs.

The insurance industry in the past has sought changes in the legal system such as the abolition of juries. However, when these changes were implemented, far from the premiums being reduced, they escalated. The same will happen if PIAB is introduced. It has been called for by the insurance industry, but with no guarantees that premia will decrease. Penalty points are a prime example - there have been huge savings, and yet still premia move upwards and the insurance companies are refusing to bring them down in any significant way. Reductions in the level of work-related accidents through the introduction and maintenance of quality health and safety measures and greater care on our roads will lead to dramatic reductions in the level of claims arising and, therefore, the cost of insurance.

The Bar Council urges the Government to carry out a cost-benefit analysis before proceeding further with PIAB. It asks the Government to listen to and engage with the profession who at present deliver the system, before embarking down a road which could lead to utter chaos and leave the genuine injured party at a complete disadvantage in relation to his or her rights.

Unfortunately one of our delegation will have to leave midway due to an unbreakable commitment in court.

I thank Mr. Maguire for his presentation.

Am I correct in saying that Ms Clarke said she was opposed to the time frame being reduced from three years to one year? If that is the case, I would like to hear the reason for this because all the evidence at our hearings up to now pointed to the opposite being the case.

Ms Clarke also said that the Law Society had strict regulations in regard to its members, including a ban on their advertising for business on local radio. However, it was brought to the committee's attention yesterday that this is not the case and I verified this - we have the name of the radio station on which the adverts are being broadcast on a daily basis.

Did Ms Clarke say that Irish insurance companies are making ten times more profit per head of population than companies in the UK?

Ms Clarke

The proposals from the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, have just been published. We have concerns in this regard because the one year statute of limitations will apply across the board to everyone who brings a personal injury claim. For example, if someone is seriously injured in an accident, is quadriplegic and must be taken to hospital for several months and ends up in the rehabilitation centre in Dún Laoghaire, 12 months is a very short period. The legislation proposes that if proceedings are not issued by the injured party against the defendant within 12 months, the claim will be statute-barred. We are concerned that one year is a very short period. Three years for personal injury claims is already a much shorter period than the normal six year statutory period for breach of contract claims and other actions. This situation could lead to serious injustices. For example, people on the broad of their back in hospital will have to worry about whether or not they can get to a solicitor and have proceedings issued within a 12 month period from the date of their accident.

Does Ms Clarke agree that the initial claim should be started within three years?

Ms Clarke

The present position is that not only must the claim be started but, in exceptional circumstances, the actual proceedings and writ must be issued within three years of the date of the accident.

Is the Law Society rigorously enforcing its ban on its members advertising?

Ms Clarke

With the Chairman's permission, I would like to ask the director general, Mr. Ken Murphy, to address that issue since he is directly involved.

As the Chairman is no doubt aware, advertising was effectively imposed on the solicitors' profession in 1998. At the time, we predicted that the type of ambulance-chaser type advertising which followed would occur, and it did. The overwhelming majority of solicitors never engaged in it and regret that it was ever allowed. We fully supported the Government measure which found expression in the Solicitors Amendment Act 2002 and we introduced regulations with effect from 1 February 2003. The regulation states that an advertisement intended to publicise or promote a solicitor in relation to that solicitor's practice shall be in such a form as shall not expressly or impliedly refer to claims or possible claims for damages for personal injuries. We have been vigorous in the enforcement of this, which I believe was recognised in the media and, I understand, was acknowledged by the Ta?naiste in her presentation to this committee yesterday.

I only heard late yesterday that a suggestion was made by Senator Leyden that he heard something on Midland Radio 3 which he believed was in breach of those regulations. I assure the committee, and Senator Leyden, that today, or tomorrow at the latest, I will contact Midland Radio 3 and ask for a copy of any tape of any advertisement placed by a solicitor. If any such advertisement is in breach of the regulations, it will be dealt with and will not be allowed to continue.

Will Mr. Murphy inform the committee of his progress?

Certainly.

Will Ms Clarke address the issue of Irish insurance companies being ten times more profitable than those in the UK?

Ms Clarke

Those figures were taken directly from the Motor Insurers Advisory Board report.

Mr. Maguire stated in item No. 21 of his presentation that the Bar Council is, "completely baffled as to the reason for frequently quoting 300% increase in some insurance premiums". I can tell him that this is true and I do not know just one or five or ten, but rather 100 companies in the hotel sector that have seen increases of anything from 250% to 350% since 2000. We have heard horror stories in this committee.

The committee is privileged to have the delegates' experience and assistance. I know both organisations recognise that there is a problem and that we will have to solve it together. We hope this is the start of many meetings we will have over the next four years. Against that background, we know and must say that it has been stated here, backed up by evidence, that some 42% of fees are going to the legal profession and we all know that it is unsustainable. People are going out of business and jobs are being lost. This committee is seeking to find out how we can assist the Government in finding a formula by which everyone can survive.

Mr. Maguire

I think the committee will have got the tenor of my address in the first instance, that, to use parliamentary language, we have a big cavil with the insurance industry in relation to the way in which it deals with us. That comes from two perspectives. First, we are all premium payers. There are 1,450 barristers and every one of them has to pay premiums of one sort or another. Like the ordinary man in the street, we are absolutely aware of the rise of insurance premiums.

I do not want to get too long-winded about this but it was a very easy jump for the insurance companies to say that the reason for all of this is the high cost of litigation and that the damages and costs are actually driving this industry bananas and sending premiums right up. The paper we gave the committee on the level of lawyers' fees in personal injury cases shows the various statements that were put out to justify that thesis. There has to be a service of compensation. The PIAB is one suggestion for it but we believe the a reformed courts system is the way to go. These figures, some coming unfortunately from the Dáil, ranged from €800 million down to €440million, down to €200 million, depending on which one is taken, for the same analysis of the same set of circumstances.

That resulted in us deciding to try to analyse how these figures are being put out because the thread always led back to the IIF. We have prepared a paper, and if the committee does not have it already I will certainly make copies available. It is the document before me. I am not going into this in too much detail but the IIF were doing a certain amount of double accounting. They talk about the reserves that are put aside and the costs of the amount of those reserves. They were adding that to the actual amount that was being paid out and then describing this figure as the insurance costs, which is driving up premiums. There is a lie underneath all of that.

Look at what is happening now. This is where the pound-per-euro factor comes in. I was asked for evidence of that. I do not know to what extent I am a witness in this particular tribunal but as far as I am concerned, and I know it from my own experience——

It is an inquiry, and we are recording.

Mr. Maguire

We are bedevilled by tribunals, but that is a different——

We are paying for them, and we do not like it.

Mr. Maguire to continue, without interruption.

Mr. Maguire

What I am saying, essentially, is what I know from my experience. Hugh Mohan also does work in this area, as does Ward McEllin, who works in the west with me. Not one of us will give any evidence other than that the level of awards - when the case goes through the courts system and comes out the other end by the judges award - the level of settlements and what the insurance companies quote as a first-off if one is involved in any negotiation on a day-to-day basis, are all calculated on a pounds-per-euro basis. I do not know what the logic is.

Where did it come from?

Mr. Maguire

I suspect it emerged because of all the controversy about the compo culture, the proposed reforms and the fact that people were aware that insurance claims were going up. I suspect that is it but I cannot tell the Deputy where it comes from.

Before Hugh Mohan leaves us, does he consider that when advertising has been banned for solicitors, it should be permitted by the professional rules of the society to operate on a no foal no fee basis? Should this be considered professional misconduct?

Mr. Hugh Mohan

It is a question more directed at the Law Society in fairness——

No foal no fee is one area that has come before us in evidence.

Mr. Maguire

If I may just say one thing before Mr. Murphy comes in to put the issue in context as far as we are concerned. In fact and theory, we operate as consultants in the sense that we are a separate practice engaged by the solicitors, who deal directly with the public on these matters. The question would be more appropriately answered by my colleague——

Are there any circumstances——

Mr. Maguire

The only advertising we would do would be to publish our names in——

No, I am talking about the no foal no fee issue. Barristers are not involved in that in any shape or form?

Mr. Mohan

There are two issues there. One is the advertisements and the second is no foal no fee. Barristers do take on cases on a no foal no fee basis. They do not advertise but they do take on cases on a no foal no fee basis and, indeed, much of the litigation which takes place is taken on that basis.

Mr. Mohan does not consider it professional misconduct?

Mr. Mohan

No, I do not consider it professional misconduct.

If I may answer on behalf of the Law Society on this. It is a reply I have offered to this question many times. As far as the Law Society is concerned this is essentially an access to justice issue. In the absence of a system whereby cases are taken on the basis that the lawyers will not require a fee from their client in the absence of a successful outcome, meritorious cases simply could not be brought before the courts and justice could not be obtained. There is no civil legal aid system which will cover such cases, and in the absence of such a system it is simply impossible to take such cases because it is very expensive.

We all know that, and we are not here in any way to deny that litigation is expensive. Most people could not afford to fund a High Court action from their own resources on an ongoing basis. Unless somebody is prepared to assist with that justice will not be obtained and meritorious cases cannot receive the treatment at law to which they are entitled.

On a point of clarification, I was accused of stating something yesterday on a point to which Ken Murphy is responding. This is very important. I did not say that lawyers advertised on a no foal no fee basis. Let us be quite clear. A firm in Athlone, which I will not name, advertised on local radio to explain the quality of its service. It is a way of getting around the regulations.

There should be a total ban on all advertising by legal practices. This firm's point was that it had the ISO 9,000. It explained how good it was and that it had quality people to provide an excellent service "for you." Obviously, if one had a problem, one would ring the firm and say that one would like it to act on one's behalf because it was so good. Let us be quite clear that I did not state that this firm advertised a no foal no fee service or that it would consult and take a case for nothing. It is not the no foal no fee service that is the problem but the percentage that the lawyers get above and beyond that. There should be a total ban on lawyers taking a case and stipulating that they want 25% of what the litigant is awarded in the court. That is a fact, as our witnesses know.

Ms Clarke

Percentage charging is absolutely illegal, and if there are any circumstances in which the Law Society becomes aware of a solicitor charging fees on a percentage basis that solicitor will be disciplined. We give that undertaking. This has been happening——

How many solicitors actually have been disciplined?

Ms Clarke

I am not in a position to give the Deputy that information but it is absolutely the case that——

There never are any figures available when one asks for them.

Ms Clarke

If Deputy Lenihan will let me reply, one solicitor has recently been struck off for breaches of the regulations on charging. It is absolutely illegal. The profession is policed by investigating accountants on behalf of the Law Society. They go around the country to investigate solicitors' practices on an ad hoc basis. This is one of the items they look for, the whole ambit of solicitors' accounts, regulation items and charging items. If these cases come to our notice, either through a report or through the investigating accountants' reports, those solicitors will be disciplined. This is illegal. We fly no flags for any solicitors who illegally charge their clients or who charge on anything other than a correct basis.

If we get evidence on that we will certainly pass it on.

Ms Clarke

Absolutely.

Will the Law Society ban all advertising on radio and television of——

I am sorry, Deputy Brendan Howlin.

I am sorry, Chairman, I am asking for the Law Society's reply.

The Senator got clarification.

I got no clarification.

The Senator got clarification. In fact he clarified the issue himself.

No, Ms Clarke has not told me that she will ban all advertising of legal practices on radio and television .

Ms Clarke

About 15 years ago the Government in its wisdom decided that solicitors should be allowed to advertise. This was imposed on a reluctant profession at the time. We did not want it and were concerned about it as most solicitors never engaged in advertising. The Government 15 years on, for reasons of public policy with which we agree, decided to reverse that and introduce the advertising regulations. We were fully supportive of the Government's move on the regulations in so far as they relate to advertising personal injury claims. We do not believe it will be possible to actually ban advertising outright. It is a matter——

We came here today to discuss something else.

It is our job to ensure that they do not advertise.

Chairman, I do not believe any other delegation has been treated like this. It is ridiculous. Ms Clarke should be allowed to speak.

They are well able to take it

Deputy Howlin, without interruption

I dealt with the Solicitors (Amendment) Act 1994 at the time. It is important that if I wanted a solicitor, I could look up the Yellow Pages to find a list of them.

I thank Ms Clarke and Mr. Maguire for their submissions. Every delegation giving evidence to this committee has made the charge that the difficulties in the insurance industry have been lawyer-led. When I put this to the Tánaiste andMinister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, she did not demur from that. There are long delays in bringing issues to court. I am interested in hearing the delegations' professional assessment as to why these delays occur. Charges have also been made that individual lawyers hunt their judges. In other words, they delay matters to wait for a sympathetic judge to hear their case. Will the delegations comment on this?

It has been stated that there is no connection between fees charged and work done by lawyers. Specific evidence given to this committee on one settlement detailed a personal injury award of €1.8 million. In this case, third party legal fees amounted to €359,000 of which €236,000 was for "solicitor's professional fees". This was in a case where liability was not contested. If no percentage is applied, how can that level of fees be justified for work done in a non-contested liability case?

There were a number of submissions received on hopeless cases being taken by lawyers.

Mr. Hugh Mohan must leave the meeting due to another appointment. I thank him for attending the committee.

Of these hopeless cases, whatever the outcome the lawyers will be paid. Should there be a disincentive to solicitors for patently taking on fraudulent or hopeless cases?

Ms Clarke in her submission discussed a role for lawyers in the PIAB. What role is there for them in the PIAB if the victim of an accident or an injury is seeking speedy and fair recompense for the injury caused? If that can be done without lawyers, what role is there for them in that system?

I was interested in the comprehensive submission that Mr. Maguire attached to his original submission from Mr. Peter Bacon. Mr. Bacon is a constituent of mine and I am familiar with his work, as I read another of his submissions for Wexford County Council. However, he is a consultant to the Bar Council. I am interested that Mr. Maguire assumes that this committee should take their consultancy submission to be the definitive analysis of costs. For all the analysis, the Bar Council has debunked the figures for legal costs presented to us. What is Mr. Maguire's analysis from his groups' members?

The whole argument in maintaining a court-based system is that the judge is absolutely free to judge on the merits of the case with no extraneous limits and barriers and justice is done. However, the Bar Council's submission states that because of the pressures of this committee and the insurance industry, there has been a reform with an increase in awards set at €1. How did this happen? Did the judges agree it? Did the lawyers agree it? Who enforces it and why can the Bar Council be so emphatic that it is happening, if all these judges are acting independently without any steering between themselves? Is the import of that submission that awards up to this point were too high?

Mr. Maguire

I will deal with the questions in sequences. The point on Mr. Peter Bacon, whom the Deputy is careful to praise on the one hand and, on the other, accuse of him being partial to us.

Like all good lawyers, all good consultants work for the client.

Mr. Maguire

Can I say something about the actual——

One argues for the client.

Mr. Maguire

I do and I always produce independent experts as well.

I am sure Mr. Maguire does.

Will Mr. Maguire answer the questions and not invite comments from members.

Mr. Maguire

What happened to us on this was that we reckoned earlier on that we were targeted by the insurance companies as not just part of the problem, but being the problem. In other words, our fees were the cause of high premia. It was an easy message to get across because, unfortunately for some reason I cannot understand, there are not many votes to be won in protecting lawyers. That said, we knew that we would be identified as an interest group in this and protecting them. We might be pretending to be tackling it from the public good point of view, but in reality it was the lawyers' pockets we were counting.

We decided that the best approach to that - this goes some distance to answering the third question - was to get an independent assessment of the situation. What we told Mr. Peter Bacon was that this is the PIAB structure, we believe it is wrong, not workable and will cost much money. We also believed that it was not properly costed. We asked Mr. Bacon to put together what he believed running a PIAB would cost the State.

Those were the set instructions that were given to him?

Mr. Maguire

Wait for the second part, as I would not leave myself as open as that. The point was that having done that he actually came back to us to tell us we were going the wrong way about this. He informed us that we should be doing the exercise of an economist as opposed to a person costing a particular system. He informed us that we should do what everybody now glibly refers to as a cost-benefit analysis. It is the effect on the economy of the change of the system and whether in the overall sense it is going to be advantageous. The problem with that was that it left us in the position that we did not know how the answer was going to come out. It could come out that it was the right thing to do and the way to go. We decided, being risk takers to some extent, that we would tell him to do what he thought appropriate, and come back to us with the report. And he went off, and, in the real sense of the words, he wrote his own terms of reference and came back to us with that report. That is why we continually refer to it as the Bacon Report. It was commissioned by us in the sense that we paid for it, but it was written on the basis of his terms of reference. That is why it is a valuable piece of information.

This leads to the heart of our argument, or part of our argument, on this. We are involved in public affairs in different ways. It is extremely hard for us to understand how a policy could first be incepted, dreamt up, developed and adopted, without it being costed. If one looks at the scheme proposed, the press release says that it is to be funded to some extent by the participants, in other words by the applicant on one hand and the insurance company on the other, and that there will just be a small refundable fee for the applicant. That is not in the heads of the Bill, but that is apparently what is stated in the press release. It is supposedly then going to be funded by the insurance companies.

If one thinks about it - and this is probably part of the solicitors' argument more than it is mine - there are 6,000 solicitors in the country and 1,400 barristers. They operate throughout the country and they provide a service which is related to the delivery of a compensation system. What is going to happen? It is anticipated that this new creature, the PIAB, is suddenly going to come in on top of this, without having any offices - that is what we are told. It is going to have an office in Dublin which is going to be paper-led. There will be no offices around the country. It will be a faceless organisation. It will suddenly take over a proportion of what seems to be something in the order of 50,000 claims, certainly more than 30,000 per annum. Who, with Government experience, is going to tell me that that is not going to cost somebody an awful lot of money to staff it, run it and asess it? If the insurance companies are going to be charged with funding it, what will happen to the premiums? I guarantee that one thing will not happen: the insurance companies will not take the loss caused. It will not happen. Who then is going to do it? You and I know, it will ultimately be the Exchequer. That is actually in the Bill. If that is so, or is even a possibility, why is it that a cost-benefit analysis has not been done in respect of this major policy initiative?

I have got a bit carried away with that. I will go to the pound per euro point. I practise to a fair degree, though not all the time, in the personal injuries area. I know what I am talking about in this area. Members will be aware of the oft-quoted statistic that something in excess of 90% of all claims are settled out of court. They are settled by the benefit of having the advisers on both sides knowing what will happen if the case goes into court.

In consultation, one always informs the client that there are two ways of resolving a case. The client can either take the case to court and accept what the judge gives, or take a compromise offer from the other side. The only reason for the client taking the compromise is that we advise the client that it is as much or more than what the client might get in court. That is commonsense advice. It needs no further explanation.

We are in that position on a daily basis. The vast majority of cases are settled on the basis of the two sides meeting and agreeing the settlement. The consensus in relation to the people negotiating those cases, which includes the barristers and solicitors and the clients, is obviously that for whatever reason, the pound and the euro are being taken as equivalent. I suppose it has something to do with - dare I say it - the fact that one is dealing in thousands, and for example saying ten thousand, and that ten thousand remains ten thousand despite the devaluation of the currency. It also seems to us to be reinforced by the judges' views in respect of it. Judges are human beings. They read the papers. They know that there is a big hue and cry about premiums, awards and costs. They would tend as a result of that to be possibly more conservative.

I cannot give cause and effect. I can only tell you what I believe to be the case. The one thing I can definitely say is that if one takes an injury that for example was valued three or four years ago, and looks at the same injury now, the pound per euro effect has come in. If my maths are correct, that represents a 27% reduction. Where is the reduction in premiums to match that? Has anyone heard someone say that there is a reduction in the awards relating to that?

That is a good point made by Mr. Maguire, and we will take that up.

Ms Clarke

I will try to take the points in order. The first follows on from what Mr. Maguire has been saying. We recognise that the present system needs to be reformed. By and large the courts are operating under a scheme which is many decades old, and which has not been updated. Before the debate arose, the Law Society looked at the whole system of personal injuries litigation and the way in which claims were conducted through the courts. It produced a report, a reform document in which were listed 50 separate ways, involving no costs, which would if implemented streamline the whole system of processing cases through the courts and lead to reductions in the time taken to process claims, and, consequently, reductions in costs.

I can give a couple of examples. Traditionally here we have had, both on the claimants' and the defendants' sides, a culture of trial by ambush. Nobody would tell the other side what was going on. The claimant gave as little information as possible and the defendant denied that there was ever an accident. That was how it went on. We said that had to stop. There has to be a change in culture. There has to be full disclosure at a very early stage - exchange of medical evidence and independent expert evidence. If people put their cards on the table at an early stage, and the culture changes, and procedures are streamlined, all of this will speed up the system. We are in favour of speeding up the system, but this could be done for a tiny fraction of the costs that are proposed to be spent on PIAB. If a fraction of that proposed expenditure were made available to upgrade the court system, it would be a superb system, better than anywhere in the world.

What about the question I put?

Ms Clarke

The Deputy spoke of delays in the system. One has to remember that there are some cases which simply cannot be brought to court within 12 months. If somebody is seriously injured, those injuries take time to resolve, so it will not be possible to process every case within 12 months.

Why does it take three or four years in the majority of cases?

Ms Clarke

It is a result of a combination of things. The system is outdated, but there may also be cases where the injuries have not been resolved, and that has to be borne in mind. One cannot simply fast-track everyone's injury claim and say that there will be no more than a year between the date of the accident and the court date. Some cases are not like that.

Regarding the "judge hunt", I am interested in what Deputy Howlin stated. I would love to know how he does it as a practitioner. Could we have a list? The reality is that on the day, because of the listing system, one is stuck with the judge one draws. In the Circuit Court around the country there are specific judges assigned to specific circuits.

Ms Clarke says the evidence is incorrect.

Mr. Maguire

One therefore has no choice but to accept the judge assigned.

Of course one has a choice.

It happens every day in the courts.

Mr. Maguire

I would love to hear how the Deputy does it——

I want to enlighten——

Mr. Maguire

I would like to return to the what the Deputy called the judge hunt. I think forum shopping is the term.

I am not up on the proper technical terms.

Mr. Maguire

This is very much a key part of the whole system as it is operated at the moment. The system involves settlements in more than 90% of cases. If one goes to the round hall of the High Court on any given day, and is involved in a personal injuries case, there will normally be four to six judges there to deal with 30 or 40 cases. Judges are judges, some mean and some generous. There is a variety. If they were all the same there would be no need to try to work out the case. On the defence side, there is the threat of getting a generous judge, and on the plaintiff side there is the threat of getting a mean judge. This is why 90% of cases are settled out of court. We do not have control over who is allotted what case. One literally percolates up the list in respect of it. The plaintiff might say, "I hope to God we get your man" or the defendant might say, "I hope we do not get him".

Could one not apply for an adjournment?

So it is true.

Spin the wheel again, on another occasion?

Mr. Maguire

Sorry Chairman. I do not like the last remark you made, "So it is true".

So there is some truth in the remark?

Mr. Maguire

No, not in the sense that you mean it. There is truth in the fact that different judges give different awards, and are known to be generous and mean. There is no doubt about that. It is not possible, however, to gerrymander the system unless one had some way of getting at the list. The list percolates up to the top. The first judge gets the first case, the second the next and it literally goes on. If that case settles one suddenly finds oneself in the next court or one may find oneself being sent up the building, somewhere.

Eleven more Deputies and Senators wish to ask questions. Have all your questions been answered, Deputy Howlin?

The one I want to get to is the one for Ms Clarke.

Ms Clarke

To disconnect between the fees charged and the work done, there is an independent adjudication system. If people are not happy there is an independent taxation system, with an appeal to the High Court. The taxing master looks at the file in its entirety and the work done, and clear guidelines are laid out for the way in which fees are assessed. It is totally independent, transparent and open to anyone to go and see what is happening.

Has Ms Clarke no point to make on the particular evidence we were given?

Ms Clarke

I could not comment on a particular case.

The case is anonymous. As regards the level of fees charged in a case which was uncontested, does Ms Clarke think that is reasonable or unreasonable?

Ms Clarke

That is a matter for taxation. They certainly seem high to me on the figures the Deputy has given, but if the defendant is unhappy a taxation of costs system is available, with an appeal to the High Court.

If I might respond to Deputy Howlin's comments about hopeless cases, one of the benefits of the no-win no-fee system is that there is no value in a solicitor taking on a hopeless case. The solicitor has to believe the case has a prospect of success. If not there is no possible way the solicitor will ultimately get paid for his time, effort and expense.

That is not true. Let me give you the evidence we have got. People have come before this committee and said that the insurance companies are not contacting the premium holders: they are settling the cases without their consent because it costs up to €10,000 to get it to court anyway. This is what Deputy Howlin is saying.

If that is the case then clearly the fault lies at the insurance industry's door. We have said many times insurance companies are operating a completely false economy because this would encourage spurious and unmeritorious cases to be brought. We say in any event, that cases which have no prospect of success will not be taken by solicitors. A case does not result every time someone crosses the threshold of a solicitor's office. Solicitors look at the evidence and assess the prospects of success and they will tell people if there is no case.

On the ground of what Senator Leyden has said, solicitors are out there enticing and touting because this is happening in the workplace. That is why both solicitors and insurance companies have a case to answer, from the evidence we have been given.

In terms of the hopeless case, which, I believe, merges into a fraudulent case - where there is no basis for a case to be brought at all - it is very difficult to succeed in bringing such a case. First, one must find a solicitor who is prepared to put his or her reputation at risk in order to bring an unmeritorious case - because no case can be initiated without a written medical report indicating injuries have been suffered and the doctor is prepared to stand over it. That then has the prospect of being tested by a medical expert on the other side. Ultimately, there is the process in the court room: cross-examination has been described as the greatest engine ever invented for finding truth. It is very difficult - I have spent a lot of time in court watching witnesses - for any witness to lie successfully in a court. It is therefore quite difficult to bring a hopeless case. We would say no solicitor would do so because it is not in their interest since ultimately they will not be paid.

That is not the evidence this committee has before it.

Well, you now have other evidence, Chairman.

Chairman, before this becomes the Howlin inquiry, I would ask you to move on. In fairness, I would like it to be called the Cassidy inquiry, not the Howlin inquiry. We have spent 35 minutes being questioned by Deputy Howlin.

I have had enough of the Law Society's self-serving and almost bleeding heart presentation. They are invoking the name of victims in defining the size of court awards, when victims' biggest complaint to us as TDs is the amount of awards being eaten up by legal fees. I find it somewhat of an affront that a body would come before this committee and try to justify the high level of legal fees on the basis of the victims - and that we should go and meet the victims. Having served on the Committee of Public Accounts inquiry into the Army deafness case, I also find it invidious that we are still talking about inappropriate advertising and the solicitors' profession. When I asked Mr. Murphy on a previous occasion, in the last Dáil, at the Commit-tee of Public Accounts inquiry, how many of his members had been disciplined for inappropriate advertising, I was told, as we were told today by Ms Clarke, "a handful", "we don't know", "we haven't got the figures" or "if you raise the case yourself, and bring it to our attention, we'll investigate it". This appears to be a constant routine from the Law Society. There does not seem to be any proactive investigation of its own members by the Law Society, on the 'percentage issue' raised by Senator Leyden - in terms of agreeing the percentage ahead of the case being initiated in the courts or wherever. It is a widespread belief that this is common practice in the legal profession. Yet the Law Society insists that its hands are clean, and no one has been disciplined or struck off on this account. We question whether that is a valid defence.

We never actually hear from the Law Society. We had no response from it at that particular committee. Therefore, I am dubious, when it says to this committee, on the no-foal no fee, that it is somehow the bedrock of our democracy. There is glaring evidence that the system and the way no-foal no-fee is promoted by the solicitors' profession - through advertising and touting for business - is contributing to a whole culture of compensation where people believe they can have a free go in the court. As long as people are given a free offer they will take it and they will try to launch a case whether it is meritorious. Mr. Murphy's assertion that no solicitor ever takes an action that is not meritorious just makes me laugh. That is simply not true. There are serious issues to be addressed here by the Law Society and it is not doing it. It says it is trying to speed up the process, yet it is opposed to a statute of limitations for one year. I do not understand how that squares with the Law Society's desire to speed up these cases.

Can I just deal——

Does Mr. Murphy want to speed up the process?

Yet he opposes a one year statute of limitation, which means cases get into the courts, whether they are meritorious or not and then they are sorted.

On advertising, I recall very clearly Deputy Lenihan and the words we had in front of another committee a number of years ago. It is the case that advertising at the time was under a completely different regime. The type of advertising which has been the source of huge public criticism and controversy - not least from 98% of the solicitors' profession - was perfectly legal, under laws passed by the Oireachtas. In the end, the Oireachtas, with our full support, changed the law. We are delighted to say that since 1 February this year a new regime on advertising has come into existence. The Oireachtas decided it should not be the case that all solicitor advertising should be banned. If Members of the Oireachtas around this table have a different view, they should not complain to the Law Society.

The Law Society said it should be banned altogether. It has changed its position.

Our position has been consistent.

You find advertising very selective and very——

Mr. Murphy.

Chairman, in relation to advertising, we support the current regime that all advertising should not be banned, but personal injury advertising - which has been the only source of public criticism——

Ten years ago Mr. Murphy was totally against it.

May I conclude on this point: There has never been public controversy in terms of Da?il questions or editorials in the newspapers about advertising conveyancing or family law. It would be interesting to hear the views of the Competition Authority on the proposition that all solicitor advertising should be banned. However, the type of solicitor whose advertising was found objectionable, which was one of the motors of this notorious compensation culture, were those involved in personal injury advertising, which comprised the overwhelming majority of that advertising. We are delighted to see an end to it.

On the no foal no fee point, I can quote from the regulations. There are 30 pages of regulations produced by the Law Society, with the consent of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Regulation 9(a)(i) states that without prejudice to the generality, an advertisement published or caused to be published by a solicitor shall not include the words or phrases such as “no win no fee”, “no foal no fee”, “free first consultation”, “most cases settled out of court”, “insurance cover arranged to cover legal costs” or other words or phrases of a similar nature which would be construed as meaning that legal services involving contentious business would be provided by the solicitor at no cost, or reduced cost, to the client.

These regulations have force of law. That regulation is enforced vigorously and relentlessly by the Law Society.

How many people have been disciplined for breaches?

The regulations have been in force for approximately four months. Where we have found any breach, following 1 February, those solicitors have been summoned up——

They have been summoned up and the advertisements have been discontinued immediately.

Repetition of the advertising will result in disciplinary action.

How many have been disciplined?

There has been no repetition.

It would seem that from today's presentations by the Law Society and the Bar Council, and from the language used, particularly by Mr. Maguire, on the Personal Injuries Assessment Board, where he stated that if one proceeds without a cost - benefit analysis, and the Government fails to listen to the professions on this issue, we are embarking on a road that will lead to utter chaos. I would like Mr. Maguire to expand on the definition of utter chaos. Obviously we do not want utter chaos in the courts. Mr. Maguire has wide experience in these matters, and I would like him to give us the benefit of what he defines as utter chaos.

Regarding the Bar Council's proposals for reform in the Law Society generally, people will wonder, in the public interest, why it has taken so long for a pro-active approach from the legal profession, for it to come forward with reform proposals. Considering the enthusiasm for court reform, and considering the representations that the legal profession has made to the Department for court reform, one wonders why it has taken so long. It may be up to the Oireachtas, the Judiciary or the court system generally to reduce the costs of litigation. The Bar Council says that in making proposals for reform, it hopes to reduce the costs of litigation. How would it do that? What suggestion is the Council making to reduce, in the public interests, the cost of litigation? Why has it not happened before now?

The Council also says the revision of court rules can be implemented at no cost to the State - another startling statement. Was there any legal representation on the MIAB board?

Mr. Maguire

I will answer that.

Allow the Deputy to conclude and then we will hear all the answers.

Insurance companies are quoting the startling figures of the MIAB report on litigation costs as a percentage of compensation. They state that it is 39.5% in third party cases, 45.9% in employers' liability cases and 56.4% in public liability cases. These are litigation costs. They are not all legal costs, but the litigation costs, and those figures, are in the MIAB report. They represent a fair old margin of profitability on compensation. Would Mr. Maguire analyse those figures and give us some breakdown of what he feels is the more appropriate figure, or say if he disagrees with them, at least in relation to the legal costs, and perhaps comment on litigation costs generally?

Mr. Maguire

I will try to deal with the questions in as short a way as possible. I hope it is abundantly clear from what I have been saying that as far as the Bar Council is concerned, we believe that the idea of the PIAB is fundamentally flawed. That is not something we have been saying just recently. We have said it all along. I do not want to become long-winded on the subject, but it annoys me when I hear some of the comments made about it in relation to our approach to all of this.

Clearly what has happened is that these proposals for a PIAB came from what I might describe as the economic side of the argument, being generated from the Departments that were more concerned with the question of the viability of industry, the effect of insurance on industry and how the insurance companies are regulated, rather than from the justice side of the argument, which is to do with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, or the Attorney General's office, or the Law Reform Commission and so on. That is what has happened in regard to the way in which these things have developed. What has been developed is what seemed to be a cure-all system, but which is not so.

As to the chaos that will occur in respect of it, if this goes ahead, the system will first have all the costs attendant on setting it up and will then fall flat on its face. One might not call that chaos in the absolute sense of the word, but to me it is a chaotic situation being allowed to develop in what is an organised democracy with a fully functioning and long-developed legal system attuned to the rights of the individual and the parties coming before it, be they companies or individuals. What is being proposed is something that will not work, and will cost a great deal of money. Chaos might be an emotive word for what will result, but that is what I mean.

Deputy Hogan asked why the Bar Council has not involved itself in reform until now. It is largely true that it has not done so, but one has to have regard for how the profession has developed. When I came to the Bar in 1971, I think there were some 200 barristers in the country. There are now some 1,400. The rules have been set in stone for years. There was not much interest in reform. It is quite true to say that the Bar Council was not involved in reform. To a certain extent it was forced into looking at the question of reform, but it has taken it very seriously and pro-actively. It did not want to take it on the basis that it would just be serving itself as a profession, on a financial basis. The Council wanted to take it up on the basis of what the justice of the situation demanded. That is why the Council is anxious to say that it is pro-actively in favour of reform, and always looking at reform. This morning we told the Minister, Deputy McDowell - and indeed the Law Society has said the same - that basically, his Bill is the way to go. I know that the Law Society has a view about the statute in that it does not welcome it in the form proposed, but by and large, the idea of the reform of the court system as it stands has our support. Obviously, I cannot speak for the solicitors.

A question was asked about legal representation on PIAB.

I was asking about the figures reported in MIAB.

Mr. Maguire

I will deal with that. Deputy Hogan quoted figures. On some of the occasions the figures were quoted, a figure of 40% was referred to. The MIAB report actually states - and we were dealing in pounds at the time - that it was 40 pennies for every pound spent. That is not 40%. It is less than that. Let us take it for the moment that the 40% figure has some validity. Forty pennies out of 140 is 28%. The MIAB report jumps from saying that on one occasion, for every pound of compensation delivered to the compensation system, the cost will be 40 pence. That was directly taken as being 40%, which it is not. That is not necessarily the end of the argument. There is certainly a cost, the cost of the delivery of a compensation system.

We are talking about having a private insurance system which operates within a compensation system. That is what the argument is all about. That cost includes not just the professional cost but the legal costs across the board, insurance and doctors' costs and all the other costs that go with the running of the case. There will be a cost, and it will be substantial. Any system will have a cost attached to it. We believe we should be looking at the question of costs and we believe, as Dorothea Dowling has rightly pointed out, that there are three elements that have to be examined. The first is the cost of the delivery of the system, which is where we come in to look at the reforms. The second is the necessity of promoting safety to reduce the numbers of accidents. The third is the question of the insurance. In that particular triumvirate, we believe the insurance industry has been getting away with murder.

I was asked a specific question about legal representation on PIAB, whether there were any legal representatives on the board of PIAB.

Mr. Maguire

I do not have the membership in front of me. There were not anyway. Furthermore, we only found out that these big reforms were coming about almost by accident. We were never asked to consider them or to come in and comment on them until the whole scheme was designed. When we were told it was coming in we were asked for our reaction to it and how best it could be introduced. That was the level of consultation. That is further flaw.

Ms Clarke

We were advised that there was a specific decision made to exclude the legal profession in any form from MIAB. We are the people who know most about the system and we were not consulted at any stage.

I welcome Deputy Pat Breen who is deputising for Deputy Murphy. I call Deputy Wilkinson.

I welcome the Law Society and the Bar Council and thank them for their presentations. To date in this inquiry the only area of agreement seems to be that people who suffer serious injury should be properly awarded. The amount of contradictory evidence we have received is amazing. On the one hand we are led to believe that Ireland is an unsafe place to work and, on the other hand, that it is probably the safest place in Europe to work. On the legal side, we have been given figures which indicate that up to 49% of awards goes to legal and medical people. What percentage of awards goes to legal representatives?

My first question is to the Law Society. I note that the Law Society did not initially respond to MIAB's advertisement. It was only later, when written to by Dorothea Dowling, that it did. Does the Law Society regret having taken that stance? It seems from some of what has been said that it now accepts - and the Bar Council has been very strong on this - that it is part of the solution in the interest of proper reform.

My second question to the Law Society is, what can the Law Society do to prevent abuse by its members who deliberately delay the submission of bills for several months? I have in mind the 8% per annum on unpresented bills that the Law Society is allowed to charge

The Bar Council has painted a frightening picture of PIAB - it could turn out to be a monster, bureaucratic, costly, fundamentally flawed. Is that the same as fatally flawed? I would welcome further comment on that. It seems that perhaps the Ta?naiste is buying a pig in a poke. One would wonder from listening to the Bar Council, and I take its view very seriously, if, perhaps, she has been conned. It is unfortunate that there was no consultation with all of the practitioners involved in the system. Is the Bar Council for or against the book of quantum?

Ms Clarke

On the question of costs, we have heard Mr. Maguire on it. We are not exactly certain because the information as to precisely what it is has not been made available to us. We suspect that it is less than the 28% that is allowed. That is the costs of both sides in the litigation, and it includes not only the solicitors' and barristers' fees but also the costs of all witnesses, doctors, engineers, actuaries, VAT at 21% and all court duty. We accept that the costs are high, perhaps too high. What we want to do is to bring forward changes in the system which will bring down the costs.

In 1999 we produced a draft of this report which was made available to the committee, the real reform report. There are 50 specific cost-free recommendations in that which, put together would bring costs down. These include: full and detailed information to be given at an early stage; exchange of medical reports at an early stage; the possibility of video-link evidence being given in court and other measures to avoid having to bring witnesses to court to give evidence, for example doctors who have to come out of their busy surgeries or operating theatres to come down to the Four Courts to give evidence. None of those measures involves actual cost but, put together, they would help to streamline the system and allow cases to be processed more efficiently and in a more streamlined fashion and bring them on for hearing much more quickly, consequently bringing down the costs.

We are not standing over the percentage given. We are saying that there are ways in which, with a little bit of good will and effort, this can be done. The proposals of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, will go a long way towards achieving this and we are fully supportive of them. What we are concerned about is the imposition of an extra extremely expensive layer and the payment of that without any guarantee whatsoever that it will result in any amelioration of the system and might, as Mr. Maguire said, have a quite contrary effect.

We have heard enough of that. That has been well aired both by the Bar Council and by the Law Society. Now we want to get down to the Law Society's side. Has the Law Society done any research in order to produce a breakdown of costs in bills to their clients?

Ms Clarke

The totality——

Has the research been done?

Ms Clarke

We would have some information on the taxation of bills of costs in so far as they go to taxation.

Has no research been done for this committee?

Ms Clarke

The figures the committee has been given are the figures for both sides. The Law Society would not have access to the details of the costs paid, for example, by insurance companies to their own solicitors in relation to cases. On some of that information, because it refers to the costs of both sides, we would not be able to readily access a breakdown.

There is no research whatsoever for this committee. People who are not as respected or as organised as the Law Society went to the trouble of organising all the research and came in here to assist the committee. The Law Society has no research to hand for the committee on the breakdown of costs, whether of doctors, quantity surveyors, architects, solicitors or barristers. There is no breakdown for the committee.

Ms Clarke

What I am saying——

Can you assist the committee? Could you produce a breakdown before we conclude our deliberations?

Ms Clarke

We do not have access to the information, Chairman. What I am saying, in ease of the committee, is that the figure of 28% has been put forward. We do not necessarily accept that.

A figure of 42% has been put forward.

Ms Clarke

We are accepting that the costs are too high and that there are ways in which they can be reduced. That is all I can say.

Mr. Ward McEllin

Chairman, I may be able to assist the committee. It is not a question of the Law Society not giving the information or not wanting to give it. Dorothea Dowling has sought this information from the Taxing Masters and the County Registrars, and there is a legal inhibition on us getting it, as there is a legal inhibition on her getting it. One of the proposals of the Minister in his new Bill is to free up the availability of that information. However, we cannot legally get it, nor can she.

Can the Law Society not carry out voluntary research among its members?

Mr. McEllin

We cannot, because it is the client's privileged information. That is the problem.

That answers that question.

Mr. McEllin

Let me also deal with PIAB and the delay in presenting bills. I was president of the Law Society at the time Dorothea Dowling put her advertisement in the paper asking a number of organisations, including the Law Society, to make submissions to her. Perhaps wrongly, we took the view at the time that this was an inquiry into the insurance industry qua insurance - the workings of an insurance company, how it funds itself, how it creates its reserves and we did not see a role for the Law Society in that. We thought this was germane literally to insurance interests and that it did not have anything to do with the legal profession. That is the reason we did not make a submission. Subsequently, when it became apparent to us that we would have an input we did request a meeting. Unfortunately it did not materialise.

To deal with the questions laid in the bill of costs, there was a system in operation until the Court and Court Officers Act 2002 came into being, whereby once the award was given the interest on costs ran at 8%. The 2002 Act changed that to state that until one produced the bill of costs it was only 2% and after that it was either agreed or taxed at 8%. Under the heads of the Bill produced last week, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, intends changing that to a position where until one produces one's bill one is entitled to no interest so there can be no abuse.

There was a suggestion that somehow or other the Law Society was seeking to delay the introduction of what became the Court and Court Officers Act 2002. Nothing could be further from the truth considering that one of its central provisions was to create the possibility for solicitors to become eligible to become judges of the High and Supreme courts. Quite the contrary is the case. We were seeking to get that Bill enacted at the earliest possible time.

That is a good point of clarification.

Mr. Maguire

I will not dwell on this for long. I was asked a question, which I hope I have answered, on the frightening prospect of the PIAB——

And the book of quantum.

Mr. Maguire

I will come to the book of quantum in a moment. The first question was if I would elaborate on why we considered it a frightening prospect. I had already answered that question.

Yes. Mr. Maguire answered that question for Deputy Hogan.

Mr. Maguire

Perhaps I can move to the question on the book of quantum. The answer is that it depends on what one means by a book of quantum. There is a very simple proposition behind this. The best way to deal with an individual who has been injured is to have that individual assessed by the courts. That is putting it in ordinary terms. That is the prospect, the ultimate is the assessment by the courts. What I mean is that a broken arm for one person may not mean much, while a broken arm for another person is devastating. The only way to test the prospect, whether the person is before the tribunal, court or whatever, is by having that person ultimately available to give evidence if needs be and for that person to have the benefit of the advice as to how bad they are in the particular circumstances. On a book of quantum, there are certain injuries which admit of what might be described as setting a particular benchmark or whatever, one of which is the loss of an eye and the general damages attached to such a loss because everybody understands the loss of an eye and the seriousness of the injury and that it is as bad for one person as for another on an ordinary basis. Even that simple injury, which is an easy injury to understand, admits of so many variations because it depends on the person who has suffered the injury as to the appropriate way to deal with the quantum of that particular injury. I would not have a difficulty with a book of quantum which was flexible enough to take into account the variations to which I have referred. I warn again the idea which seems to be prevalent that, if one loses the top of one's finger it is X; if one loses the whole finger it is Y; if one loses a finger and thumb it is Z. It is not as simple as that.

Would Mr. Maguire agree with the idea that Departments and insurance companies should be able to brief the Bar Council directly and engage a barrister directly?

Mr. Maguire

No, I do not. The system which operates at present is that the solicitor is the general practitioner and the barrister is the consultant. Consultant is the wrong word. In other words, we are a referral bar, we come in only when the case has to go to trial. What the Senator is talking about is direct access to our profession which would change the whole basis of the barrister's profession. There are certain circumstances in which one can have direct access but these are very defined and they are not situations where there is the possibility of litigation.

But from the point of view of reducing costs where they would involve both Government Departments and insurance companies in much of this work?

Mr. Maguire said "definitely not".

Mr. Maguire

I say, "No."

First, on the independent expert who was discussed earlier, in almost all cases an independent expert can produce an outcome favourable to the client. That there is a client means the independence of the report is somewhat undermined from the outset. We need to be conscious of the credence we would give any independent report presented to us by any party to the issue being discussed. A person can be prompted - coerced might be too strong - or guided.

On the issue of inconsistency in awards handed down by courts, Mr. Maguire said one meets some mean judges and some generous judges. Perhaps a more accurate description of that system would be to say it is unfair. If one goes before a particular judge one can get a generous award while if one goes before another judge one can get a mean award. That is unfair to the claimant. I disagree with Mr. Maguire's statement that the Bar Council has no input into when a case is heard, because it can always apply for an adjournment, a witness may be unavailable to attend or it may be convenient to enter into settlement talks at a particular time if a particular judge is sitting. There are all those kinds of issues. The Bar Council cannot determine who is listed but it has an influence in that it can direct a case away from a judge who may not be generous towards a particular case. In view of that does Mr. Maguire consider there is a need for training for judges. Furthermore, to make the system as waterproof as possible, should there be special courts to deal with insurance claims and personal injuries' claims?

In regard to the PIAB, I am of the view that it will encroach significantly on the fees of a member of the legal profession. If one takes that view, it is imperative for the legal profession to undermine the PIAB. To extend that, one would have to say that the criticism of the PIAB by the legal profession carries little weight for that reason. So far as I am aware the legal profession is the only body that has criticised the whole issue of the PIAB. That adds further weight to the argument that this will pinch the legal profession and that is why it is being opposed by the legal profession.

On the issue of having a solicitor and a barrister in court, I find in my dealings with solicitors and barristers they are intelligent people. Solicitors handle cases like this every day and why is it necessary to have a barrister and a solicitor in court dealing with the same case? Solicitors are highly qualified individuals. Essentially, they prepare the case and do all the field work and hand it to a barrister. Why does that have to happen? Can not a solicitor go into court and do the lot and end the duplication of costs which arises?

Ms Clarke addressed the issue of the percentage of the court award for legal fees. Architects operate that way. They work on a percentage of the contract. What is wrong with the legal profession working on a percentage of the award?

I will be brief as many of the questions have been asked. I thank the Bar Council and the Law Society for their presentation which I found enlightening. Like many others I regard the costs as too high. There are a few issues with which I do not agree. In her submission, Ms Clarke said rising premia is a global phenomena. My understanding is that it is not a global phenomena. She was speaking about a 400% increase in her own business and a 351% increase in the hotel industry. Equity values have fallen and many of the premiums would have been invested but it is not a global phenomena. Why is it so in Ireland? I think it was an American president who asked for a one-handed economist so that he could not say "on the other hand". My experience here is that every day I hear a totally conflicting story from the insurance company and the Law Society. Perhaps the delegation can explain why premiums are so high in Ireland as distinct from other countries?

While I respect the delegation's attitude to the PIAB, it is disappointing. Having discussed the matter at the joint committee I thought some of the problems would have been addressed. The problem as I see it is that businesses are folding up and, apparently, 2,760 jobs have been lost because of this. I agree that the appeals against the PIAB might make it redundant and I conveyed this concern to the Ta?naiste yesterday. The loss of 2,760 jobs is a huge attack on the socio economic infrastructure. When that happened with subversive organisations at a time when the existence of the State was threatened, the Government of the day brought in special criminal courts. Is it possible to bring in special insurance courts? I appreciate it is not easy, it is complex, but can it be done? If so, perhaps it would address an issue raised by Deputy McHugh that a solicitor could deal with the matter at local level instead of having to travel to the High Court and so expedite the proceedings. Those questions are for the Law Society.

I have two questions for the Bar Council. Deputy Howlin spoke a good deal about judge shopping. In a former existence I used to manage the Wexford hurling team. In the less sophisticated days of the GAA we did referee shopping. One sought a certain referee depending on whether the team was playing Mayo or Kilkenny. I will vary my question a little on the judge shopping issue.

One would not have to do much hurling shopping in County Mayo.

I am worried about Waterford at present. Given the size of Deputy Wilkinson we might have to look for a special referee. Is it time judges were trained to deal with insurance claims in order to get rid of the inconsistencies? I am aware the Bar Council can easily pull a case out and go hearing on a day when a certain judge is not sitting? I am correct in saying that? It appears I am wrong. Is it time there were interview systems, training systems and that the system of appointing judges was changed? For certain some training is needed in insurance.

Ms Clarke addressed the issue of awards and said they were not too high - I may be misquoting her. We have been told they are four times higher for soft tissue injuries here than in Britain. The loss of an arm may have a greater effect on one practitioner than another but if one compares with Britain, surely one cannot be four times more devastated here for a similar type injury than in Britain. On the issue of costs, can Ms Clarke compare our litigation costs? If they are 46% because of the insurance lawyers and the claimant's lawyers they are too high. Like me the public feel we are being ripped off. We meet the claimants every day. They vote for us or they do not vote for us so they are represented here. How do litigation costs here compare with those of Great Britain.

I thank the delegation for its submissions. It has been good to hear its side of the story.

Mr. Maguire

There are six questions and four of them are for me. I do not know what way the Chairman wants me to deal with them.

Deal with them all as you wish.

Mr. Maguire

I shall deal with the questions in sequence rather than in order of importance. The first question was about the independent expert. A dilemma has been highlighted for us. There is no doubt we are an interest group and we are part of the problem inasmuch as we want to be part of the solution. We knew that. We knew also we were the victims of adverse publicity and we wanted to get away from that. We thought the best way to proceed was to get an independent expert. We believe he is independent and has been established as such. I am not sure if the Deputy was present when it was stated earlier that essentially he wrote his own terms of reference.

I was present and I heard that.

Mr. Maguire

So far as his report is concerned it is internally logically a sell out. In other words, one does not have to say this is something that was bought by the Bar Council. The Deputy did not say so as directly as that but the inference behind it was that somehow this is our lad giving our voice and putting a respectable face on it.

Which it is.

Mr. Maguire

No.

I thought he was commissioned by the Bar Council to produce this report.

Mr. Maguire

No, that is the point I am making. He is an independent witness.

Who commissioned him to produce the report?

Mr. Maguire

We asked him in the first instance to do the job——

The Bar Council asked him.

Mr. Maguire

If the Deputy listened to what I had to say in relation to that——

He wrote his own terms——

Mr. Maguire

Yes, he wrote his own terms of reference. We could say——

I am not questioning Mr. Bacon's professionalism or anything like that. I am making a general point.

Mr. Maguire

The alternative is not to have somebody do it and the Government can get its own if it wishes.

And have an independent assessment?

Mr. Maguire

If the Government had one of its own to look at this we would not be here but that is a different point.

The next question raised by the Deputy concerned the generous/mean judges and that is an inconsistency which is unfair to bring on to the individual litigant. The simple point here is that one has a right of appeal from the judge. If the judge goes outside the bounds of being so wrong as to be unfair, one has a right of appeal. That is available to either party.

That would involve more legal expense.

Mr. Maguire

It is available to the aggrieved party and if it is correct it will not cost the aggrieved party anything. The next point was the question of jockeying the list, which is the best way to describe it. What the Deputy suggested was that if a particular case is listed and is ready to be taken and suddenly one sees one cannot have a particular judge that one can apply for an adjournment. It does not work that way. Adjournments are court supervised. There is no judge in the land who would allow an adjournment on that basis. A principal judge deals with the personal injuries list so that one would have to apply to him, and not to the judge in question. There is no judge in the land who will allow one to say that he would like to negotiate a case further. If a case is in the list for hearing, one will be told to get on with it and if not one will be penalised. If one seeks an adjournment without reason one will lose the costs of the adjournment.

But one would be allowed time for settlement talks

Mr. Maguire

Only by the judge one is allotted. Once a person has been allotted that judge one cannot get oneself out of his list. One can say, "would your Lordship give us 15 minutes to see whether we can settle the case?" He may say, "No", that he is there to take the case and to get on with it.

Has it ever happened that a judge granted the time requested and that he commenced hearing another case?

Mr. Maguire

No. In exceptional cases it might be granted. There would have to be a reason other than the reason suggested by the Deputy. An exceptional case would be if somebody got sick.

The cases I am suggesting would never be made known to anybody.

Mr. Maguire

The fourth question was about training for judges. The first and most important part of any judicial system is that it must be independent. I have no difficulty about judges being brought through a course that tells them what the job is and what they have to do. That is increasingly the tendency amongst the Judiciary at present. However, when one is talking about getting a pragmatic system to deal with a particular problem, it is very easy to say, "we will take the judges in and tell them to do x, y and z". If one interferes with judicial independence, one is entering a very different ball game and it is a very dangerous situation to get into.

Chairman, that was actually my question to Mr. Maguire.

Mr. Maguire

It was also asked by another committee member.

If someone else asked it also, I am sorry.

Mr. Maguire

Basically, one can have an independent commission; it does not have to be politicians who train or appoint judges. What is required in the first instance is to set the bar high about who gets the job. Once that is done, by all means inform them of the job they have to do but do not try to dictate because if one is dictating to judges one is in a difficult situation.

I know one cannot have political interference with the Judiciary.

Mr. Maguire

All right.

I am not suggesting dictation either but I find it unusual that a judge can be competent to make judgments on a plethora of cases that come before him because they are all so different. How can a person be so competent?

Can we get to some conclusion?

Mr. Maguire

I will just go through the last portion.

Yes, because we want to conclude at 1.30 p.m. We need short questions and replies, please.

Mr. Maguire

The Deputy said we are to be criticised because we are self interested, which means that because we are criticising PIAB, in some way that is a self-justifying argument. The corollary is that we should say nothing even though we believe it to be wrong. That would be a far worse situation in which to place ourselves.

Would Mr. Maguire accept that it is going to interfere with the fees of the legal profession?

Deputy McHugh, will you please allow Mr. Maguire to answer the questions that were asked?

That is what I want him to do.

Four members have been waiting for more than two hours to ask their questions.

Mr. Maguire

The last phrase you used, Chairman, was the question of a rip-off concerning the size of awards. I would readily concede that it is a matter of policy for the Oireachtas to decide if it wants to interfere with the level of awards, but that is a different question. If one wants to talk about reducing the cost in terms of saying, "you shall not get any more for x, y or z", that is a matter for the Oireachtas. It would be wrong but it is a matter of policy for the Oireachtas. It is actually a question of fees. That is what we are talking about.

How do our litigation costs compare with Britain's?

Mr. Maguire

I am sorry but I cannot give the Deputy a direct answer to that. I am not trying to avoid the issue but, essentially, we are concerned with the barrister end of things. We are organised on the basis of being self employed individual practitioners, so we do not have access to that information.

I accept that totally.

On the question of legal costs in Britain, a general theme of independence has been raised here. I am glad to see that members of the committee are putting forward questions about self-interest arguments. I hope that, equally, they will challenge self-interest arguments put forward by the business lobby, who are clearly another interest group, and the insurance lobby.

They are your customers, too, though

Yes, but they are also self interested.

Can you answer the questions, please?

I can, indeed. As regards the comparison of costs between Ireland and the UK, one of the more independent, genuinely reliable and authoritative studies, of many that have been done in this area, was the Deloitte & Touche study in 1996. It was commissioned by the then Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte. That report, which did a comparison in a survey of litigation costs and personal injury litigation between Ireland and the UK, which is the only comparable jurisdiction in Europe, stated that they were broadly similar.

There has been a near obsession with this figure of 42% and I have lived with it for the past two and half years. I have told groups of solicitors that if I die and there is an autopsy, they will find the figure 42% carved on my heart because I have been living with it for so long. Of course, we explain what the 42% represents. It is interesting to note, however, that according to the MIAB report, which looked at figures - and this has not been highlighted very much there - the ratio of all litigation costs to the actual award payout is a hugely significant figure. It may interest members of the committee to know that the equivalent ratio figure in England is 107%, which is based on figures that appeared in the MIAB report. Of course, awards are lower in England than they are here, which goes towards explaining it but there are lies, damned lies and statistics. They say that 95% of all statistics are invented on the spot but that is not one of them; there is an authority for that to which I can point.

The costs compare favourably - that is the point, is it?

He is quoting 1996 figures.

What has happened since 1996 is just mind-boggling to say the least of it. That is the major problem.

The Deloitte & Touche report was an independent one to the Government in 1996.

That is a long time ago - seven years; it is three Governments ago. That is how out of touch the statistics are.

I have very little to ask now because most of the questions have already been put to the delegation. When insurance claims arise all costs escalate and that is true, even going back down to the garage man. Why do barristers and solicitors have to represent both sides in small personal injury claims, when 90% of such claims are resolved out of court? Due to the fact that 90% of claims can be resolved out of court, there must be a good relationship between both sides. Does the legal profession work on both sides from time to time? How good is the relationship there?

Given that the PIAB board is to be established, surely it will do away with the "no foal, no fee" system completely because there will be no need for a person who does not have money to get a solicitor to represent them.

It will be very important where the book of quantums is pitched. If it is pitched low people will not go to the board, yet one cannot pitch it too high. Does Mr. Maguire think the book of quantums should also be used by judges when it is brought in?

I welcome the delegation. The debate has been quite interesting. There are lies, damned lies and statistics but I think we have heard every one of them this morning from all over the room. I am conscious that we have a group of consultants who will prepare this report, although we will eventually decide what it will contain. I am conscious that there are notes being taken of everything that has been said. I would hate people to leave today's session believing that solicitors should not advertise; I believe they should. If one has a solicitor in the family one would not need to look up the Golden Pages or any other advertising journal. Most people, however, are not familiar with solicitors and in times of crisis when they need representation they need to be able to contact legal advisers.

The type of advertising that has been condemned is an entirely different issue. I remember the arguments that were made by the Law Society against the legislation at the time. That should be said clearly for the benefit of the report and the transcript of the proceedings.

While that is important, equally, the notion of "no foal, no fee" is very important. That is because, at the end of the day, the majority of people could not approach either a solicitor - or a barrister, if they happened to know one - with a legitimate case because they simply could not afford it. What happens when it goes into the realms of the legal area, and whether or not a solicitor should advise a person that they do not have a case or that it was a genuine accident, is an entirely different argument. The notion that the rest of the world can afford legal advice, or is acquainted with a solicitor, is entirely wrong. Genuine people may have a difficulty and a court is the last place they want to be.

There will also be a difficulty when this new system is established because people will still approach solicitors about how to fill out a claim form. If they do not approach solicitors they will be approaching us. It is as simple as that. We fill out enough forms for people already and we will be doing so again.

Our paths have probably crossed on various issues.

Whatever about the foal, there will be no fee.

The fee in our case will be payable over five years. My experience of no foal, no fee concerned an equality issue when I had ongoing contact with the Law Society about how solicitors should conduct their business. I found it helpful, both at local and national level. However, for the work of solicitors, the case would not have been won nor highlighted, despite the holding of a mass demonstration by women.

What is it that affects people on the steps of a courthouse that makes them settle a case? Could the same factors not operate a week, a month or a year in advance? If the majority of cases are settled before they get to court, does a different fee apply?

There is a perception, which the tribunals have not helped, that the public purse is being ripped off. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform negotiated the fees. We need to deal with that perception and where it fits with the role of insurance companies and their apparent ability to charge what they like in terms of premiums while blaming others, such as Al-Qaeda or the Law Society. Successful firms employ large numbers of staff and manage big offices.

I welcome the attendance by the Law Society and the Bar Council. Deputy Lynch expressed concern about the robust nature of the questions today. This is business, not personal. When members of the Insurance Federation attended the committee I accused the federation of operating a cartel and stronger allegations were made against them than have been made at this meeting.

I may misrepresent Mr. Maguire, but I understood him to have questioned his attendance here, given that he had earlier today met with the Ta?naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. However, he has achieved something at this meeting in that he put a very serious question regarding the Personal Injuries Assessment Board. As Members of the Oireachtas we will put that to the Minister when the Bill goes through the Houses. Mr. Maguire's views may be correct.

It is my intention to propose that all advertising be disallowed. By this I do not mean the display of a name and address in the Golden Pages, but rather radio and television advertising explaining why one barrister claims to be better than another and so on. The country is well served by solicitors. As a Member of the Oireachtas for the period 1977 to 1982 and beyond, I received very few complaints or representations regarding the legal profession. I represented a client in the District Court in front of Judge Windle. A constituent approached me about a £40 fine for parking illegally in Dublin. I attended the court, Judge Windle did not ask me who I was - presumably he thought I was a solicitor - and I was called in due course to plead on my client's behalf. The garda produced the evidence and I pleaded for my client and managed to have the fine reduced from £40 to £20. I did not charge him a fee.

In my experience as a professional witness in a case in the High Court, the judge made a cod of the case because he was wrong. The case involved an extension to a building in Athlone which had become increasingly damp. The judge held certain views on this type of case, but his judgment was so bad that I did not charge a fee to one of the Chairman's constituents in Athlone.

Members are reminded that they should not mention the names of people who are not present to defend themselves.

I did not mention the name of a judge.

The Senator did.

I mentioned the name of Judge Windle because I appeared before him. What is the view of the Law Society and the Bar Council on the perjury legislation and are the members of the delegation happy with the Minister's statement? It would be preferable if Ministers would first introduce legislation before speaking about it. I recall a famous judge by the name of Liam Devally, who was a great singer. Most barristers did not wish to appear before him because he was very fair in the way he assessed cases.

My understanding is that before an injured party gets to court, which can take two to three years, the State pays the health care costs. Why should things be any different under the PIAB? The committee has heard a number of submissions, some of which were harrowing. Many jobs have been lost and more are at stake. Many businesses have gone under.

The committee wants to see this area cleaned up and it is likely it will support the book of quantum, the PIAB, legislation against fraudulent claims and providing for no contest in the case of small claims, where solicitors are not involved. The insurance companies have advised the committee that these measures will help.

It has been indicated that in the period 2000-03, insurance premiums have increased by 400% - figures of this kind have been submitted to the committee during previous meetings. It has also been pointed out that in the past 16 years, profits in the insurance industry here have been ten times higher than the levels applying to the insurance industry in Britain, while in the period 2000-03, legal costs have probably increased by only a little more than the consumer price index. Having been filleted by the insurance industry, can the delegation tell the committee where it thinks the insurance companies are going wrong? Why is it that we are paying the most expensive insurance costs? The industry has indicated that the legal profession is part of the problem but where do the delegates see it?

That concludes the questions by members of the committee. I call on the delegation to respond.

Ms Clarke

We are not saying the present system should stand, that it does not need to change. We have already commented on that. The problem is that exactly what was said has happened. We know that insurance premiums have rocketed. There has not been an underlying increase in the cost of claims. We are asked how it can be justified, we do not know how the insurance companies justify these huge percentage increases over the past three or four years but certainly they cannot justify them solely on the cost of litigation. The insurance companies have accepted that this is a global phenomenon and they have accepted this in their submissions to this committee.

We want a system that is fair but we are concerned. Our concern should not be ignored simply because we are seen to have a vested interest. What must happen is not that a crisis arises in the future and something must happen. There is a crisis and it should be looked at reasonably and logically and a system put in place which will be fair to the insurance companies, to the premium payers and to the victims.

Our big concern was in fact raised by Deputy Lynch. The one group who will not have any representation available to them in PIAB is the people who have been seriously injured as a result of accidents. A member has said he would be delighted not to see lawyers, but supposing, for example, a constituent of the member, a scaffolder, falls off make-shift scaffolding somewhere in rural Ireland, should he not seek legal advice. Let us say that the scaffolder brakes his back, loses his livelihood and his employer, for this purpose, accepts liability and goes to PIAB. Is it suggested that, without any entitlement to legal advice, he must access all his own medical reports, complete all the documentation which will be needed to prepare his claim and calculate the future cost of medical treatment, etc., and loss of future earnings. I ask: "Is that fair?"

May I respond, Chairman? This is important because Ms Clarke is being very selective of what I said. I was referring specifically to small claims of €10,000 or €12,000, where there is a senior counsel and another barrister on the other side. I assure Ms Clarke that society is glad to see those claims dealt with, especially where they are not contested, and I would stand over that.

Ms Clarke is referring to major claims while in the main the Senator is referring to the smaller claims. In such smaller cases, 50% of the sums involved would be eaten up by all the legal fees.

Ms Clarke

With respect, Chairman, the difficulty is that this legislation does not differentiate between large and small claims. If this was a small claims court procedure, then, perhaps, that would be different. We have put this question to Dorothea Dowling and it is certainly envisaged that the Personal Injuries Assessment Board will handle the big claims as well as the little claims. Therefore, there is no question of this just being a forum for small claims. If it is accepted that it is unfair for the larger claims, and that the injured party in the scenario I presented will be at a disadvantage, is this really what we want?

May I interject briefly because this goes to the core of the issue and relates back to my question? What is the solicitor's role in working out the costs? What is the solicitor's role in working out the medical injury or the cost of medicine? All of that is done by a solicitor dragging in an accountant to do the costing and a doctor to work out the medical injury. The idea, as I understand it, is that the PIAB would have that expertise and that it would drag in all these people to give an evaluation of that, but we will put these questions to Dorothea Dowling. In Ms Clarke's presentation the solicitor is simply the facilitator and he or she is not the prime mover in providing any of the data she has just given.

Ms Clarke

First, it is a question of whether or not the experts retained by PIAB will be essentially on the plaintiff's side. The second issue involved in this is——

The PIAB, no more than the courts, will not be on anybody's side.

Ms Clarke

In the nature of the accident that I have set out there is the issue of liability. Who will deal with that? Who will advise the plaintiff on the liability issue? It is very important.

It is a different issue.

Ms Clarke

What is proposed now is that for the purposes of an application to PIAB, the insurance companies - the defendant - may admit liability and then if the claimant appeals, they can put it back in issue. On the whole ambit of a victim's claim, it is simplistic to state that all the solicitor does is farm the matter out to various experts to be dealt with. The solicitor's role is to know and, in consultation with the barristers, to advise on the whole of a claim like that in its entirety, to retain the appropriate expertise on behalf of the plaintiff and to present that evidence in a proper fashion.

PIAB could do that.

Ms Clarke

PIAB will not do it. The claimant concerned will have to do it.

Mr. McEllin

On that matter, we are told that PIAB will be a paper-based system. Some 90% of my business is personal injury. I sit clients down in front of me and spend half an hour or an hour with them depending on the complexity of the issue on a given day. I could not deal with my client's claim on the basis that he/she writes to me and I write back to them. It is just not possible.

What is being suggested by PIAB is that someone who is not well-educated, who has had an injury is meant to get the idiot's guide from PIAB, fill in a form and get a result. It cannot work that way. No matter how good I am, I could not take instructions from my client simply on a paper basis. One must sit them down and talk and understand the issue. If that happens in PIAB, every year there will be 20,000 or 30,000 claimants knocking on PIAB's door and wanting to see who is the case officer in charge of their case. It will be meltdown. I am on the interim board of the Land Registry which is starved for fees and the Oireachtas cannot provide fees. PIAB will be no different. It will melt down if that is the system.

What is the alternative to PIAB?

Mr. McEllin

On the alternative system, we are saying that we have that document containing 50 different reforms. We all are coming back to the same basis, that the costs of delivery are far to high. We agree. What we are saying is that there will be a cost involved in setting up PIAB. We do not believe that PIAB, the way it is being structured, will work properly and fairly. We are the experts in the field. We are saying that if our suggested reforms for the courts is implemented, there will not be a need to appoint many more judges or to provide extra courtrooms, etc., because those fixed costs are in place in any case but there will be a more streamlined system. We agree that this will affect our fees, which will come down, but that does not matter to us because we will have a faster system and we will not be wasting as much time. There are inefficiencies that can be removed which are costing money at present.

Does Mr. McEllin know of a country where his suggestion is being implemented?

Mr. McEllin

They have brought in a system in England in the Wolfe reports, but it is a different one where they front-load the costs and we want to get away from that. Campbell in the North is a mixture of systems, including the Wolfe system. We have taken both systems and tailored them to try to get a more efficient system here. We have looked at the other system and said that this one will work and it is cheaper.

Mr. Maguire, do you want to answer some of the questions?

Mr. Maguire

Deputy Lynch asked what terror strikes the plaintiffs when they get to the door of the court. I have often asked myself that question. No doubt what finally brings reality to people's minds on both sides of the case is when one is saying "This is the position; the defendants are offering you X; you can either go into court and see if you will get more or you can take the X." Many people do not want to go the final hurdle. They may be full of fight up until the day before but when it actually comes to the reality of facing cross-examination in the witness box or whatever, they may decide that they do not want to take that route. I suppose one could say it is part of the system in the overall sense of the word.

An ancillary question to that then is this: if the case settles at the door of the court, do we get paid the same fee? The answer to that question is it depends on the case. By and large, one would. If one is prepared to go into court having done all the consultation and all the work that pertains to running the case in court, then that person will get more or less the same fee. There may be some difference in the amount. Obviously, if it was a two-day case barrister would get a different fee because he or she would be there for two days, but that is the answer.

In respect of the whole idea of settlement before going into the court, this is one of the areas of reform on which we should focus. It is one of the areas we addressed in our own reforms and, to a certain extent, it is reflected in the Bill of the Minister, Deputy McDowell. It is this, the question of having a compulsory meeting of the parties to bring them to the realisation at an earlier stage before the court costs are incurred. We have suggested in our reforms that court time should not be allotted to a case unless there is a certificate from a responsible party stating that a meeting has taken place in an effort to resolve the issues between the parties. That would undoubtedly lower the cost of the litigation from a variety of points of view and it is something that should happen. It is an obvious efficiency. Good and efficient solicitors generally arrange such meetings before the case gets to an advanced stage but many lawyers, etc., do not favour this system and say the only way to get the proper value of a case is by bringing it to the door of the court. I do not agree but that is a view. Everybody is agreed on this side of the room that the idea of mediation being available to the parties and being compulsory in the sense of having been certified is a good one and it would have a direct effect on lowering the costs.

The word "tribunal" was mentioned. I remind the committee that we suffer from the reputation tribunals have given us. Less than 2% of barristers are involved in tribunals and we suffer all the time. If one wants to see what barristers and solicitors are doing, one should go to a busy Circuit Court venue where there is none of the pizzazz that surrounds tribunals. There are no cameras and high profile photographs of people walking out of the courts. People in there are working as hard as they can to do an honest day's work. They do it well but it is never recognised in the overall picture of the two professions.

I am grateful to Senator Leyden for the accolade that I may be right. The final question relates to the figure of €2.9 billion, which is a shocking figure to find in the middle of a report. There would be absolutely no point in going back over everything in Bacon's report because it is quite a closely argued economic thesis that he puts up. However, I hope I am not misinterpreting him but he says that to contemplate an entirely public-based system, in which there were no insurance companies in the sense that we know them or no compensation in the sense of the private system where courts deal with personal injuries, would mean rejigging social welfare and health care into the future.

For instance, future care costs drive up the damages in many multi-million euro cases where provision must be made for somebody who is seriously injured and in a wheelchair or whatever. The damages must provide for the provision of a nurse or two nurses, as the case may be, to look after the person now and into the future. That adds millions to a claim. A publicly funded system would operate on the basis of the State picking up all that tab and it would also look after the needs of the injured party. That is where the figure of €2.9 billion comes from. Bacon states the income tax take would have to be increased by 10% before such a system could be provided and the PIAB scheme is borrowed from the publicly funded way in which these systems operate.

Mr. Maguire has misunderstood my question as I did not refer to a lack of involvement by insurance companies. The cases still affect the public purse because by the time they reach court, which takes up to three years, the claimants are already availing of public health care. There would not be an extra cost and I do not accept the figure of €2.9 billion.

Mr. Maguire

The Senator is challenging Peter Bacon and not me in that respect. I did not include that figure but that is the basis on which he approaches it. The Minister has taken on reforms regarding social welfare being claimed by an individual as their claim is due up in court and, thereby, recovering money on the double. There are situations in which that can happen, depending on the type of social welfare that is claimed, but that double recovery should be removed from the system and the Minister has addressed that to some extent. We are recommending that he goes along that route.

The Senator stated this could be taken to the bank and that the book of quantum, PIAB and the perjury Bill were coming in but the bank of the public purse is where this will end up and that is the fundamental point we are making in this regard.

I wish to question both representative organisations on two issues. The president of the Law Society said spurious and dishonest claims should be identified and the chairman of the Bar Council referred to fraudulent and exaggerated claims. Will Ms Clarke put that in the context of the Army deafness claims, which were a scandal? Many members of the Defence Forces did not realise they could make a claim until they read about the initial claims and they were canvassed by members of her society who subsequently encouraged them to make claims. Members of the legal profession, in turn, made claims for expenses, with one company seeking more than €8 million from the State. Can Ms Clarke comprehend how that looks to ordinary taxpayers? They see members of a reputable body canvassing individuals to make claims. I commend the Minister for Defence on the manner in which he dealt with this scandal. How can Ms Clarke defend such a scenario and then tell the committee that the legal profession is being proactive in keeping down the level of claims set by the courts? These cases did not make it to court as a result of negotiations entered into by the Minister and his officials and they are to be commended for their handling of this issue. The Law Society is exposed on this claim. It cost the State more than €200 million and it was an absolute disgrace.

Furthermore, the legal profession agreed fees with the Attorney General's office regarding claims but, having done so, members of the profession asked claimants to pay them a percentage of what they received in addition to their fees.

Ms Clarke

I was involved in this case. When the claims arose initially, there was a full and absolute denial of liability or responsibility on the part of the State in regard to the claims. Each claim was fully contested. Some solicitors who acted on behalf of plaintiffs were actively involved in negotiating the agreement which ultimately came to fruition between the State and the Law Society. What happened then was many of the cases, which would have been settled at an earlier stage if responsibility had been accepted, were finally accepted. We have no flags to fly for anyone who brings a fraudulent claim and I am delighted to support at least one of Deputy Hanafin's proposals. We totally support the introduction of the perjury legislation as anyone who brings a fraudulent claim should go to jail. That is the Law Society's stated position. Any solicitor knowingly involved in bringing a fraudulent claim on behalf of a client should go to jail also. We are not ambivalent about that.

Regarding the Army deafness claims, we were involved as the Law Society in working out the ultimate arrangement between the claimants and the State.

That does not answer my question.

Ms Clarke

If I could just take the question of percentage charges - I am not sure the Deputy was in the room when we dealt with this.

Does this still concern the Army deafness claims? The Deputy was very much involved in this with the Department.

Ms Clarke

Essentially it is illegal to charge percentage fees. Somebody asked earlier why it cannot be done; one reason is that it is illegal and also it might not reflect the amount of work put into each case. The Law Society will discipline any solicitor found in breach of those regulations. We now have provisions which mean that any fees taken in that way have to be repaid to the client; if the situation is serious enough the solicitor will be struck off.

My question has not been answered. Is Ms Clarke aware of solicitors canvassing members and former members of the Defence Forces who, until approached by members of the Law Society, were and remain unaware they had hearing problems but still made claims on the basis that they were encouraged to by members of her profession?

I was involved at that time also and met the Minister for Defence on the issue. We said face to face and publicly that if he had evidence of any solicitors canvassing for this type of work which was illegal and improper we would act on it but there was no evidence. We made that clear and it is ironic that the issue of solicitor advertising was focused on because we got a list from the Department of the 30 firms with the greatest volume of personal injury claims being brought against the State on behalf of serving or former Army personnel and almost none of them advertised. From talking to the solicitors involved there was no need for advertising. The word went around like wildfire by word of mouth through the Defence Forces. There was no need for solicitors to canvass.

I was contacted by a person who said to me that he was contacted by a member of the Law Society. Unfortunately, he was buried two months ago.

Is Ms Clarke aware of members of the Law Society who took a percentage off the top, having agreed——

Ms Clarke

Absolutely not.

You are not aware of any?

Ms Clarke

Absolutely not.

How can Ms Clarke defend an office which can claim more than €8 million in fees from a Department in the full knowledge that they had sat down and agreed fees, which has been acknowledged? There was a procedure in which a claimant stated he wished to make a claim under the Army deafness scheme, a typist typed up a letter which went to the Department, where it went through a process and payment was made. Can you defend the fees charged? I accept they were agreed but can an office claiming more than €8 million in fees be defended?

Ms Clarke

If they were agreed, as I say——

You come in and claim you are purer than the driven snow, yet can you defend that morally?

Ms Clarke

Every bill of costs which is presented by a plaintiff's solicitor to a defendant is subject to taxation by an independent authority, the Taxing Master of the High Court, and, ultimately, on appeal to the High Court. If the Deputy says to me fees were agreed then presumably they were agreed between the solicitor involved and the State, which was the defendant, with full advice available to the State on the work done and what was an appropriate fee. I cannot comment other than that. If the fee was agreed then presumably the State was satisfied with it.

I have very little confidence in the Taxing Master on the basis that only last week another company had its fees reduced by €5 million.

Ms Clarke

It shows the system works.

It shows he is a former member of the Law Society.

Mr. Jerry Carroll

The points I wished to make have been thoroughly dealt with at this stage. My interest was the efficiency and effectiveness of the notion X which has been more than adequately aired at this point.

Mr. Maguire

I do not want to jump into troubled waters regarding Army deafness, but one point is not often raised in this regard. The vast majority of the Army deafness claims would never have seen the light of day if the Statute of Limitations had not been amended by the Oireachtas; it had a cut-off period of three years whether the claim was good or bad. That period would have cut out a significant amount of the deafness claims but there was an amendment to the Statute of Limitations which stated that if there was a reason for a person not knowing they had a claim the person could still make that claim. It is one thing to throw brickbats at the profession but sometimes the ball hops back.

Senator Hanafin referred to the harrowing cases being heard by this committee from the interest groups appearing before it. This brings us back to our original point. The victims of accidents have no unified voice; the truly harrowing stories are those of victims of accidents and they would harrow the committee if it heard what they have had to go through. It may not be possible to bring such people in but the debate is one-sided. I appeal to the objectivity of public representatives to look at both sides.

Surely as public representatives we are the voice of the victims, as we are elected by the general public. We have no vested interests. As an EU member state we want to see fair play and equality, which is not happening at present. We could be talking for quite a while here. I am grateful for the delegation's presence.

I asked a number of questions which were not answered but I want one answer, and not a long answer. This idea of having solicitors and barristers dealing with personal injury cases; is that necessary or is it a custom?

Ms Clarke

I am a litigation solicitor and it is a division of labour. If one looks at America there is one profession and no solicitors or barristers, one finds some lawyers specialise in litigating and some in advisory work. That is what happens here. If I have 30 personal injury claims and I have to be in court for all of them, then I will have to be paid for my time. What happens here is that the branch of the profession specialising in advocacy is the barrister side and they present the case in court. They do so on instruction from solicitors so they do the same work only in court. It is the same work but there is a division of labour.

The solicitor is also present in court.

Ms Clarke

A representative of the office is present in court.

Who would be very familiar with the case?

Mr. Maguire

I know time is limited but I will come in on that. As far as solicitors are concerned, they have right of audience in every court of the land, from District Court to the Supreme Court. That has been the situation since the early 1970s. Some solicitors exercise that right but it is a matter of the economics of the situation. We are in court every day; we are hired as people who do court work. It would be very difficult to run a practice from one's building, on one hand, and do one's court work. One could not hang around in court waiting for cases to come up. It is a division of labour, in that sense.

I think, Chairman, that you are misunderstanding Mr. Murphy when he says he does not believe that the voices of victims are heard. There are all sorts of victims. The Chair sees the victims as employers who are on the brink of going out of business because of high premia. We have seen the victims of personal injury from this delegation, which is an entirely different type of victim. We have heard from the Hotels' Federation, the tourist industry and IBEC but, other than our own personal experience of meeting people and knowing solicitors, we have not heard from any group representing people whose lives have been altered dramatically through injury. We have not heard that side of the argument. I want to assure Mr. Murphy that we will keep that in mind. It is not something that we will forget about.

I want to assure you, Deputy, that I was speaking on behalf of the constituents that elected us to the Oireachtas. They were not all employers, although some of them were. In the main, they were people who have sustained injury or may do so. Therefore, you are totally incorrect in stating that I misunderstood Mr. Murphy. I am fully open to having someone appear before the committee if they wish to represent any other organisation.

This is the seventh day of our hearings and I wish to thank the groups who have co-operated with us in attending the committee today. We appreciate the major contribution they have made. They have certainly given us an angle in their presentation, which we have not heard up to now.

The next meeting of the joint committee is scheduled for 3.15 p.m. on Tuesday next, 22 July, at which we are scheduled to receive the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform at 3.30 p.m. and Ms Dorothea Dowling at 4.30 p.m.

I thank the delegation for attending this meeting.

The joint committee adjourned at 2.42 p.m. until 3.15 p.m. on Tuesday, 22 July 2003.
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