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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE AND SMALL BUSINESS debate -
Tuesday, 22 Jul 2003

Vol. 1 No. 23

Reform of Insurance Market: Presentations.

This is the eighth day of meetings in connection with the Government's programme for reform of the Irish insurance market. I was very pleased last week to welcome the Tánaiste and the Minister for Enterprise and Employment, Deputy Harney, and the Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan. I welcome today the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell. I will shortly invite the Minister to make his presentation and I ask members to keep their questions and contributions both succinct and relevant.

Following the Minister's presentation, I will invite Ms Dorothea Dowling, author of the MIAB report, to make her presentation. Members who wish to make a declaration in relation to any matter being discussed may do so now or at the beginning of their contributions. Members are also reminded that if there is a possibility of a conflict of interest, they should make a declaration of interest either now or at the start of their contributions. As I have said on other occasions, I wish to put on the record that I am a member of the Irish Hotels Federation. I welcome the Minister and invite him to make his presentation.

I suppose I should declare an interest in that, as a practising barrister for all of my life, these issues could materially affect my interests if I should go back to that way of earning money.

I am pleased to have been invited to speak to members today about my proposals to reform the law on civil liability and to discuss these proposals with them. I am prepared to consider any points made this afternoon as work is completed on the drafting of the Bill. First, I want to sketch the background to these proposals and then give an outline of what they contain.

Given its remit, this committee more than any other body will be familiar with the problem the compensation culture is causing for business, particularly small business. For many years, we have laboured in this country under the burden of a tax wedge which, in effect, discouraged the creation and maintenance of employment. Latterly, it is being replaced by an insurance wedge whereby insurance costs are set at penal levels with the result that firms are inhibited in their ability to do business and to expand activity and employment. There are all too many cases where the continued viability of employers has been endangered by the high and rising cost of insurance. Added to this is the impact of high insurance costs on personal customers, for example, in the case of motor insurance and public liability and home insurance.

My proposals are designed to do something about a situation which is neither affordable nor tolerable. In line with the commitments in the programme for Government, my objective is to reform the law relating to personal injuries and the procedure involved in taking personal injuries actions so as to reduce the insurance burden on both business and personal sectors, while at the same time ensuring that genuine claimants receive fair compensation for wrongful acts which cause them injury.

I will summarise the main provisions in the general scheme published recently. Head 4 reduces the limitation period for personal injuries actions from three years to one year to ensure that claims are brought forward without delay. Heads 5-13 provide for the procedure to be followed in taking a personal injuries action. The emphasis is on early notification of the claim to the defendant, the furnishing of detailed pleadings, provision for strict time limits and the need for an affidavit to verify the contents of pleadings.

I would like to draw particular attention to head 12 which provides that the originating document, defence and other pleadings should be supported by an affidavit verifying such pleadings. The intention is that a person who includes false material in his or her pleadings will be guilty of an offence akin to perjury. In the programme for Government there is a commitment to a provision along these lines. In addition, in order to get around the necessity for corroborating evidence to secure a conviction for perjury, a separate offence of swearing a verifying affidavit falsely is created, with a maximum penalty of a fine and-or ten years imprisonment. I regard the requirement for a verifying affidavit as very important because it means that a person will not be able to institute proceedings in the hope that the defendant's insurance company will be induced to settle without the plaintiff having to go into the witness box and perjure themselves in support of a false or exaggerated claim. Such a person will now be guilty of a serious offence as soon as he or she delivers the originating document in the case.

Heads 14 to 16 provide for mediation. This may be sought by either party prior to a trial or ordered by the court during the course of an action. Where a mediation conference is held, all parties must be represented at the conference and actively attempt to settle a claim. At the conclusion of the conference the chairperson shall report to the court on the outcome. The report will indicate whether parties have actively participated in attempts to settle the claim and, if they have not, the court may award costs against them. Also, where a party refuses the request of another party to take part in a mediation conference, costs may be awarded against him/her if they have been incurred because of the refusal. There is a strong incentive to mediate.

Head 17 provides for final offers of settlement to be exchanged before the trial commences. The intention is to give parties a last chance to settle prior to trial. A court may not view offers of settlement until an action has been decided but must take them into account in determining costs. Head 18 provides for the possibility of pre-trial hearings for the purpose of identifying which matters are agreed and the matters which must be decided by the court. Head 20 provides for evidence to be given by way of affidavit where the court considers it appropriate for the proper, expeditious and economic disposal of the proceedings. Head 21 provides for the possibility of appointing neutral assessors to assist the court in relation to expert evidence and reports. The parties must co-operate with the assessors and the assessors may interview the experts who have written reports that are tendered in the action.

Head 22 provides that, where a court is satisfied that a party has knowingly tendered evidence or delivered a pleading which is materially false or exaggerated to a significant extent, the court shall dismiss the action-defence unless, in exceptional circumstances, this would result in serious injustice. In the latter situation, the court shall nevertheless order the party responsible to pay a sum to the other party to reflect the seriousness of the conduct, the harm it has caused the other party and the need to deter such conduct. The head is intended to meet the commitment in An Agreed Programme of Government which states that a power will be created for the courts to deduct from damages costs relating to exaggerated claims.

Head 23 creates new offences of tendering or adducing false evidence or giving false instructions to a solicitor with a view to deceiving another party to a claim with maximum penalties of a fine and/or ten years imprisonment. These will provide more effective enforcement against those making fraudulent claims. Head 24 provides that any income, profits or gains which have not been returned in accordance with taxation legislation shall be disregarded in the determination of damages in personal injury actions. The head also provides that the Minister may, with the consent of the relevant Ministers make regulations providing for the transfer of information regarding damages awarded and evidence in trials to the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social and Family Affairs for the purpose of their statutory functions.

Head 25 relates to the deductibility of collateral benefits from awards of damages. These are benefits which a person receives as a result of the event which gave rise to the cause of action, for example, the proceeds of a personal accident insurance policy. The Law Reform Commission published a report on this issue in December 2002 which recommended a general principle of deductibility subject to exceptions. I propose to accept the recommendations of the commission with the exception of one relating to the proceeds of insurance policies. The commission recommended that in assessing damages no account should be taken of proceeds of an insurance contract where the plaintiff has paid the entirety of the insurance premiums directly and in their own name. I propose instead that all insurance benefits should be taken into account in assessing damages. I am opting for this approach because I believe the main purpose of the law in this area is to restore the injured party as far as possible to the position in which he or she would have been but for the wrongful act, not to over-compensate him or her. This will deal with cases where a person takes out a contract of insurance at an airport, etc. stating that if he/she breaks a leg while skiing or on holidays he/she will be paid €5,000. The Law Reform Commission suggested that type of policy should not be taken into account at a later stage because the person paid upfront for it. This is the one area in which we disagree with the commission and are saying that one should not get more in toto from an accident occurring to you than the proper level of damages even if one paid an insurance policy in that regard.

Head 26 provides that in assessing the damages to be awarded in a personal injury action the court shall have regard to any damages previously awarded to the plaintiff in such an action and to the amounts for which any such actions were settled. Previous claims history will now be relevant in personal injuries cases. Head 27 provides that interest should not apply to judgment costs until such time as those costs are agreed or taxed. This proposal will remedy an anomaly whereby interest is payable from the date of judgment on a solicitor's bill even though no bill has as yet been submitted effectively placing a premium on delay. The longer it takes to pay a solicitor's bill, the bigger the premium by way of insurance paid on it.

In addition to these provisions, I am considering, in consultation with the Attorney General, a possible provision to enable the Attorney to intervene in the public interest in certain types of litigation. What I have in mind here are cases, the outcome of which could have farreaching implications for the public interest. People have asked if it is fair for the Attorney General to intervene in a case between two parties. I have in mind cases such as those where workers in certain areas were claiming damages for the fear of asbestosis. It is important in cases of that kind that the public interest as well as the private interest of a defendant as an insurer should also be heard. I am also considering restricting liability in certain situations, such as sporting, community and domestic activities, to wilful default or gross negligence. I have also asked the committee on court practice and procedure, chaired by Ms. Justice Susan Denham, to examine all aspects of practice and procedure relating to personal injuries litigation and I look forward to the outcome of this work.

The general scheme is now with the Parliamentary Counsel to the Government for drafting. This Bill, which I refer to as the Civil Liability and Courts Bill, will also include provisions to address the implications of the Valuation Act 2001 for court jurisdiction as well as the relaxation of the in camera rule in family law proceedings. I am also considering making provision for the amendments recently suggested by the Judicial Appointments Advisory Board in relation to the appointment of judges and the recommendations of the Fennelly Report on the criminal jurisdiction of the courts. Other recommendations of the Fennelly Commission will, I hope, be incorporated in the forthcoming Criminal Justice Bill which I mentioned earlier in the context of my tribute to Eamon Leahy.

I have made it clear that, in publishing the general scheme, I would welcome the views of interested organisations, the general public as well as of course, and the views of Deputies and Senators on the proposals and I will carefully consider any points made. My aim is to press ahead with the development of the Bill without delay with a view to its enactment before the end of the year if possible. This proposed legislation is one element of a range of measures to deal with high insurance costs. This committee has already heard from the Tánaiste and the Minister for Transport on their proposals. The Tánaiste is taking the lead role in the co-ordination of the various measures, reflecting the importance attached to them by the Government. I am confident that provisions on the lines I have described and the other measures in the reform programme being undertaken by the Government will, with the active co-operation of all those involved, bring a great improvement in the situation to the benefit of the entire community.

These measures will, in my view, result in fraudulent claims being much more heavily contested by insurers. If an insurance company can detect fraud it can, as things stand, throw it into the melting pot in an effort to reduce the value of the case but it has to decide whether it is worthwhile employing a private detective to show the plaintiff is lying about his/her injuries and whether that will have a significant effect in the last analysis on the outcome of the case. Insurers will now have the incentive that if they can show that any material portion of a claim is brought in bad faith, the claim in its entirety will be struck out. There will be a strong incentive on the part of the defendant or insurers to probe carefully whether a claim is being made in good faith. There also will be a strong incentive for them to show that a case is being brought partly or wholly in bad faith in which case they will win the proceedings. As a measure towards countering the compensation culture, that readjusting of the scales in the courts system will have a significant negative effect on opportunistic litigation which is one of the biggest problems we face today.

The Minister's assurance to the committee that the Bill will be through both Houses of the Oireachtas is reassuring.

It is a question of hope.

I do not foresee any party interrupting its passage in any way. The Minister referred to reducing the time limit from three years to one year. This has been highlighted by organisations which have made submissions to this committee.

May I ask the Minister to state why there are scaled fees in the District Court but not in the Circuit Court or the High Court? Do the Minister's reform proposals address this matter? In the Circuit Court, the county registrar decides the costs and the taxing master does so in the High Court. This can lead to inconsistencies in costs. The Circuit Court registrar in one county can set fees which are different to those in another county.

When I started at the Bar, scaled fees in the High Court only applied in the past only to liquidated claims, claims for sums certain, where judgment was recovered in a summary fashion. In the District Court there were maximum scale fees and under the old rules of the Circuit Court there were a series of fixed fees for various events. They fell into disuse because of inflation. The question as to whether it should be done by way of scale is something I want to examine carefully. I do not think there needs to be legislation for it. From recollection, I have power to do this.

At the time juries were abolished in the High Court, the manner in which costs were to be awarded made provision for a new approach which I do not believe has been taken on board by the legal profession or perhaps by the taxing masters to a full extent, and that was, to pay for the work actually done as opposed to the work which might be done had the case gone on. I intend to explore this matter because, to some extent, we are paying people fees in respect of cases without regard to the fact that when the case is settled, they are free to go off and earn similar sums of money doing other cases. That is a point I wish to study. The Chairman is correct in saying that the question of scales has never applied for general litigation in the High Court. I will revisit this issue because I have statutory powers to examine it.

The Minister is surprised that his former profession, the barristers, are opposing the PIAB. Does he accept some of their criticisms that there has not been a cost benefit analysis done on the PIAB structure? Is there any assurance that it will deliver value for money?

The Law Society of Ireland is opposing the statute of limitations of one year in the case of accidents which he intends to impose. I think its argument is rather self-serving. Does the Minister share my view? It seems to think that people will not be able to get out of hospital to take claims. That was the statement made before this committee and I find that incredible. I do not believe lawyers have found it difficult to start actions even if people are in hospital. I welcome the speeding up of the process to one year.

The Minister referred to the public interest clause which it is intended to include in the Bill. As a practising barrister and as a Minister, can he quote a practical case that would illustrate his plans? He stated that people were taking actions because of fears of asbestos poisoning, that people were claiming for the fear. I was not aware that office workers in the public or private sector were doing that.

I have heard the Bar Council's statement that it would like to have a cost benefit analysis run on the PIAB system. I see it as confined to cases where liability is not an issue or where the legal issues are clear. In those cases where the defendant is effectively going to have to pay out damages if court proceedings go ahead, this would be a first step, effectively a service available to parties in that situation so that the damages could be assessed without the panoply of litigation. It may cost some money to establish the PIAB and it may be that those expenses will be substantial, but the Government's judgment is that the establishment of such a board is likely to have a significant effect on costs associated in particular with employers' liability, public liability and road traffic cases.

The Bar Council had an opportunity to present its views to a meeting of the three Ministers under the chairmanship of the Tánaiste, with the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, in attendance. The Tánaiste made a good point in reply when she asked what was the cost benefit of the present situation because it has not been advanced.

I wish to emphasise strongly that in relation to employment, this country faces many challenges. One which we would be foolish to ignore is that our system of personal injury compensation in employment, public liability and car insurance cases, is generally far more generous than any other European Union member state. In those circumstances, the effect of our system on employment and enterprise if unjustified, is a self-inflicted wound to an economy which is struggling on competitiveness grounds with the new applicant states of the European Union. If we are talking about cost benefit, we should talk turkey and the real cost benefit is in jobs in Ireland. I have constantly made the point to my colleagues in the legal profession that they have everything to gain from living in a prosperous society and although they may think there is a threat implicit in all of this to their earnings, I have never seen a prosperous society in which the lawyers did badly. I now say as a fact that this imposition on employment in Ireland is a serious threat to Irish prosperity and it cannot be in anybody's interests and even in the lawyers' interests, in the long-term.

In relation to the Law Society of Ireland's attitude to the one year rule, one year is the maximum period during which, having discovered that a person has a cause of action, he or she can bring that action, with the known exceptions that if one is a child or a person who is legally speaking under a disability, in other words, a person lying in a coma or incapable of handling his or her their own affairs, or incapable of giving instructions to a solicitor, that time will be extended. The one year period will be perfectly adequate within which somebody who has sustained injuries can commence an action. It is true that one could be seriously traumatised in an accident, but the exact extent or nature of one's injuries might not be apparent within a year. The question of whether one's limb could be saved, for example, may not be resolved for a long time. There will not be an unfair result in such cases, as if one's injuries become more grave after the start of the action; one will be able to amend one's claim and to pursue it accordingly.

One will be penalised in costs if one does not comply with the two month letter duty. The statute of limitations says that one cannot bring a case after a year. A failure to deliver the letter I mentioned earlier will be penalised when costs are being awarded. The purpose of this provision is to avoid a situation which was brought to the attention of some of those who recently visited the Government sub-committee chaired by the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey. He pointed out that there may be problems if somebody suddenly claims, two years and ten months after an accident, that they suffered a back injury, for example. One might claim that one was cut while at work, but one's employer may be wholly unaware of this and may never have had a reasonable opportunity to examine the circumstances of the incident. An employer may have to work out in 2003 what happened in 2000, perhaps by asking people if they remember the injury being sustained in the workplace.

The two month letter provision is designed to ensure that one will bring a case reasonably quickly, regardless of the one year limit. If one does not notify the other side of the existence of a claim reasonably quickly, one will be penalised when costs are awarded. The provision will help to prevent people from leaving potential defendants wholly in the dark until such time as they cannot investigate the facts.

Deputy Conor Lenihan referred to cases being taken after the presence of asbestos was discovered. When I was Attorney General, a series of such cases was brought against the State by State employees. The claims were not made on the basis of having suffered asbestosis or any of its symptoms, but because those involved, who now realised they had been exposed to asbestos in the course of their work, claimed to have suffered psychological trauma as a result. A raft of cases was brought against the State and substantial damages - between €30,000 and €60,000 - were awarded in the High Court in the first instance as a result of the alleged psychological damage. The Supreme Court eventually reversed the judgment in one of the cases, which was good. The Attorney General and I want to introduce a system whereby his office can intervene at an early stage in such cases to point out that they may cost about €200 million to the State or about €100 million to Irish employers. The question of whether such cases are reasonable should be examined at an early stage.

There were no Members of the House on the list.

I am not aware of any.

We want to know what the Deputy has outlined.

What would be the nature of the Attorney General's intervention at that stage? Is it intended that the Attorney General will take a case to the highest court in the land as a test case? What would be the nature of the intervention?

This proposal has yet to be fully developed. We had done some work on it before we decided we should reflect on it further. It was not included in the published heads for that reason. In such a case, the Attorney General should be able to intervene to point out the public dimension of a particular private claim, or a series of private claims, in the event of their being successful. The general public implications of such private claims should be examined. If the Attorney General is joined as a party to proceedings to make that claim, he might be in a position to appeal a decision with which he disagrees, as Deputy Lynch has suggested. Such a system is needed in cases of insurance companies deciding to throw in the towel for economic reasons, even when an important point of principle remains to be established.

Will the Attorney General's role essentially be to remind the court of the public interest in the proceedings?

I welcome the Minister to the committee. I welcome the attempts that have been made to deal with exaggerated and fraudulent claims. The proposals outlined by the Minister will go a long way to frightening people so that they will believe that there will be a serious downside to any attempt to make exaggerated or fraudulent claims. The proposed changes to the affidavit and the law on perjury will also help in that regard.

The Bar Council, which attended a meeting of this committee to represent the legal profession, has taken issue with a number of aspects of the Motor Insurance Advisory Board's report, particularly those relating to the costs of litigation for third party cases and liability cases. Will the Minister comment on the fact that the average cost quoted for litigation is now 40% of the claim?

I was somewhat disturbed when the Minister said that he sees the Personal Injuries Assessment Board as a clearing house system for people before they go to litigation. I assume this means that the Minister envisages that a small number of claims will be settled by the PIAB, despite the reasons for its establishment. We do not yet know whether it will be an expensive means of dealing with this problem. It has not been proposed that the PIAB will have nationwide offices, similar to the law centres found throughout the country. I am not sure how these matters will be dealt with in a less expensive way. If individual claims will be dealt with by the new board before they go to litigation, it may be the case that a further layer of bureaucracy will be added to this procedure. This is something we should avoid. I invite the Minister to comment on this matter.

A mediation system is mentioned in heads 14 to 16 of the proposed civil liability Bill. It is interesting that reports drawn up under this system will indicate whether parties have actively participated in attempts to settle claims. If they have not done so, the court may award costs against them. I have not heard about this proposal previously. What will be the definition of "active participation"? Perhaps the Minister can give some examples of a lack of participation that may lead to costs being awarded against one.

The chairman of the Bar Council felt that the legal fees associated with claims is roughly 3.5% on both sides. He felt that the best way to proceed, in order to speed up the processing of claims, would be to reform the courts system rather than to establish the PIAB. Does the Minister, who has experience as a practising barrister, feel that the chairman is right or wrong in that assertion? Attempts are being made to reduce the costs associated with processing claims and awards so that the system of paying out on claims will become less expensive for insurance companies. How does the Minister envisage that the savings that will accrue, if they will accrue, will be passed on to consumers?

The Deputy used the phrase "frightening people". This is not about frightening people but about telling people what the consequences of their actions will be. I am not trying to deter somebody who is entitled to make a claim from doing so, whether through the PIAB process or through the courts. I am not in the business of scaring people. Anybody who thinks they can start a claim on a false basis should be aware that, from now on, there will be serious consequences. It is not generally appreciated that one can serve a plenary summons, containing the names of the plaintiff and the defendant, some legal formulas and a statement called the general endorsement of claim, in the High Court after two years and 11 months. The general endorsement of claim usually consists of a one line statement that the plaintiff is making a claim for damages because of negligence, as well as the signature of the barrister acting for the plaintiff. This is all that is required at present to invoke the court system in a serious case. That is all the information one has to give to the other side when one stops the clock. This legislation seeks to provide that the full and detailed statement of claim demanded at the moment is included in the originating document in a High Court action. In other words, to stop the clock one must deliver to the other side a full and fair statement regarding the details of one's case.

The Bill does not simply provide a formula for damages in respect of negligence or a breach of duty. A clear statement outlining what happened must be included. For example, if a plaintiff lost three fingers as a result of his hand going into a mangle, the manner in which this was caused by negligence must be stated clearly. Was it the case that the automatic system to prevent his hand going into the mangle was disassembled or in a state of disrepair? A person looking at the document the Bill requires will know immediately the detail of a case which is not how matters stand at the moment. From memory, I could deliver to the committee a full set of statements of pleadings from either side in respect of 90% of traffic accidents or 80% of industrial accidents which would leave members none the wiser as to what the cases are actually about. We intend to change that. It is not a matter of frightening people; it is a matter of obliging those engaged in litigation to face up to the details of their cases and to informing the other side. Cases can then be addressed fairly and squarely by the other side.

The Bar Council has been quoted as saying the figure of 40% in respect of litigation costs relied on by the insurance companies is misleading. The council's case is that the figure of 40% involves the fees of barristers, solicitors, doctors, architects and engineers plus VAT. To put all that into one category can give a figure of 40% of the gross cost of a claim. The barristers say in their own——

It was actually stated that in real terms 40% was 28%.

Per hundred. It was 40 of 140.

That was what was said.

As I understand it, the barristers' position is that the insurance companies are deliberately exaggerating the costs of litigation. Barristers account for 7% of the costs, divided into two halves of 3.5%. They say their fees are not the real cause of the problem which is the result of other factors. They say 3.5% on either side of a case does not result in the high cost of motor insurance premiums.

While there is an element of truth in that and I agree with the proposition of barristers that they are being put in the firing line by the insurance industry, we have a very expensive system of litigation. We have a far higher percentage of cases in which litigation rather than settlement takes place than the equivalent common law jurisdiction of the United Kingdom, and England and Wales in particular. Within that litigation, barrister dependence is vastly greater than in the United Kingdom. In most English cases, the solicitor feels perfectly competent to settle a case without involving a barrister whereas here the Bar is involved to a much greater extent. I do not wish to become involved in a row between the Bar and the insurance industry but the barristers are correct in their belief that reform of the system is much more likely to yield results than the halving of barristers' fees. Barristers' fees, however, represent a significant issue which will also have to be addressed.

Deputy Hogan asked if the PIAB would constitute another layer of bureaucracy. It will not. It is not as if we have a wonderful litigation system and nothing else. We have a very expensive litigation system. Many plaintiff solicitors believe - and I agree with them - that they must commence legal proceedings to demonstrate to defendants that they are serious. This tendency of the legal profession to resort to litigation to demonstrate seriousness of intent is a first cousin of bureaucracy and has the same implications. The PIAB will not turn out to be a bureaucracy as it is largely a paper driven exercise and an attempt to expedite cases of assessment where liability is not an issue and there are no legal matters to be decided.

Dorothea Dowling will be making a presentation to the committee in this regard later. It is to be a body with its finger on the pulse of the courts which will allow it to short circuit the legal process. If a person has lost a finger in a sawmill, the PIAB will be able to indicate the typical High Court rate of compensation and make an offer obviating the need to undergo the panoply of finding engineers to prepare a case. It will be interesting to see how the body operates. I have great hope that it will be a success.

Active participation in mediation will mean that a person will not simply pretend to engage in the process. I must make clear the point that mediation is not designed to force a person to give in unfairly. If a defendant believes a plaintiff's claim is bogus, he or she will not be embarrassed into conceding part of it through a requirement to participate in mediation. If a defendant refuses to give in from the beginning in respect of a claim he/she believes to be false, the system will operate on that basis. The defendant will not have to undergo a process of pretending to settle the claim when that is not the intention.

The Bar Council has made proposals of its own and I have undertaken to study them. One proposal is for a greater degree of management of cases by judges with far more applications before a case comes to trial. In so far as I understand its intent, the Bar Council wishes us to adopt what are termed in England the "Woolf reforms". That could have the effect of making personal injury litigation far more expensive and court driven by requiring far more applications to the court officer or the judge who is managing a case. The process would be far more lawyer intensive. While I do not slam the door on such proposals, I have not included them as a mandatory part of any procedure. My proposals have a light touch. They will not have the effect of forcing plaintiffs and defendants into a long and unnecessary process. It may well be that the courts will take on the role of case management to a greater extent by bringing in lawyers to ask them about their progress to ensure cases do not lie in limbo. I do not propose to make such a process mandatory as it has the potential to increase greatly the legal costs of litigation.

I welcome the introduction of the Bill. As the Minister has said, many companies are in crisis due to the high costs of insurance which represents their second largest bill after wages. Unless something is done, more jobs will be lost.

The Minister mentioned previous claims awards. Is it being suggested that we set up a register of people who claimed previously? Some of the companies that came in here stated that the same names might crop up if one went back over the records.

I got the impression that the Minister does not think the Personal Injuries Assessment Board should be involved in too many cases. We feel, however, that it should take on a great number of the cases. We are told that 90% of cases that currently go to court are settled outside court. In effect, the court system is not being used; it merely acts as a means of bringing the parties together. Why can the Personal Injuries Assessment Board not deal with such cases?

The setting of rates in the book of quantum will be important. If they are pitched too low, it will not be used. Should the book of quantum be a guideline for judges in future?

I thank the Minister for making himself available to the committee. I have a number of questions. He is aware that we regard insurance as the most important issue facing a business.

It appears to us that the array of reforms meant to make insurance more affordable have at their heart the establishment in law of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board. While that is not the direct responsibility of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, it is a core issue of the measures to be taken. From my perspective, listening to the Tánaiste last week and listening to the opening statement of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform today, I am beginning to have the gravest concerns about how effective the PIAB will be. The Minister is now indicating to us that it will be confined to areas where liability is not an issue. A strong case was made by the Bar Council in the face of tough cross-examination by the committee that the reform of the courts system would be a better way to proceed. I am interested in hearing the Minister's response to that and also his response to the question of who will pay for the PIAB. The Tánaiste said it would not be a cost to the State. Does the Government have an indicative cost for it? One presumes the insurance industry would pick up the tab and ultimately the premium payer. If the PIAB is to come into being, that cost would be bearable if it has the impact we expect, but if it is simply to be a first layer in an ever developing process for insurance costs, then it might not be a useful device.

In relation to the book of quantum, I was concerned when the Tánaiste indicated that it will be a digest of current awards by the Judiciary rather than what I believed it would be, which is a fair analysis of what each individual personal injury might actuarially be worth. That will only enshrine the high awards that we are concerned about. Is that understanding correct and what is the Minister's view?

I have two other questions which I will quickly put to the Minister. One relates to heads 4 and 5 of the circulated heads of Bill. On head 4, as the Minister explained to the committee, he has reduced the statute of limitations from three years to one year. In head 5 he announced a new letter of claim. Will that not be an incentive to people who may never have gone to court to reach out to a solicitor within the first eight weeks of an injury in order to ensure compliance with the new legislation? How will this impact on the issue of costs? Might it not, in fact, engage solicitors in a process in which they might not otherwise have been involved if the lawyer free zone envisaged by Ms Dowling is to be achieved?

My final question relates to a review system for legal costs which was referred to by a number of witnesses. The Minister will be familiar with the taxing master system. It has been put to us that this system is wholly inappropriate and that a more appropriate system would be composed of non-legal members or a panel of lawyers and non-lawyers. Perhaps accountants or actuaries would be a more suitable sector to make a judgment. An analogous situation would be if the appropriate rate for teachers was determined by a senior teacher or the appropriate payment for nurses was determined by a senior nurse. Why, uniquely, should two senior lawyers determine the appropriate rate for lawyers?

We have had some most interesting questions from Deputies Callanan and Howlin.

In relation to Deputy Callanan's question about previous claims, it is not done purely on the basis of a central register of claims. Some insurance companies are now keeping a database of litigation. What I have in mind is that either side in a case will be able to ask the other side if a previous claim has been made and there will be implications if you answer that untruthfully. If you are a serial claimant you will have to disclose that fact to the other side and a court may take a slightly——

One could be unfortunate.

Yes, one can be just unfortunate. The Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Fahey, spoke about serial claimants at our meeting with some of the interested parties the other day. Single households have produced a vast variety of claims and single streets seem to be accident prone to the most extraordinary extent. Single potholes have had multiple visits and a number of taxis have fallen into the same unlit excavation on various roads. It is important that some protection is available to insurers and defendants. A previous claims history will be a relevant issue in every case because each side will be entitled to call on the other to disclose in relation to it and, second, the court will be entitled to have regard to it in relation to damages. At the moment, no reference would be made to a previous claim for a twisted back from a fall in a supermarket if one broke ones leg in a pub. If ones solicitor wrote a letter to the other side, he or she would get a polite "get lost" letter by way of reply, asking how that is relevant to the broken leg. We believe it is important that this should be changed.

The book of quantum is something which is often spoken about but difficult to put into place. Many people think it would be great if every claim in Ireland was analysed and that anybody who was administering justice or acting for an insurance company or an employer could look up what people who had broken legs got over the past six months in every settled claim and every other claim. That is difficult to do. I have noticed that it is very easy for legislators to wave a magic wand and say, "Let there be a book of quantum", without working out who will do the analysis, which claim is settled, whether the broken leg had two pins inserted and whether the operation went wrong.

Whether it is Damien Duff's broken leg or mine.

Yes. There are many such issues. To make a record of every single incident in which somebody recovered damages would require vast resources. I believe that Dorothea Dowling - she will confirm this - wants an objective record from which people dealing with claims, in whatever capacity, are able to have regard to what is happening in the court system because, as has been pointed out, if the PIAB was giving only 50% of what the courts were giving for comparable injuries, the system would not be a success. People would not have any regard to the PIAB in such circumstances. The record is to make the PIAB aware of the general level of compensation. I believe that the book of quantum should be available to the Judiciary as well so a judge hearing a case in Westport Circuit Court will be aware of what is happening generally throughout the system in relation to broken legs or other matters.

It has been suggested that I am minimising the effect of the PIAB but I am not. Dorothea Dowling is about to make her submission to the committee and I am fully supportive of the PIAB but I understand that it is intended to apply to cases where liability or legal issues are not an issue. This is to ensure it will not turn itself into a body that decides who is telling the truth about whether there was a car crash, etc. It is an assessment board and exists to assess compensation as an alternative to the present system which requires one to effectively press the litigation button to obtain compensations for injuries that were visited upon one.

The Bar Council is saying it does not believe in the PIAB. Maybe it does not but we will see how in works. We know that the present system has certain adverse consequences but let us see whether assessment of cases, by a statutory agency, that are non-contentious in legal terms will result in a dramatic reduction in the volume of litigation. I believe it will have this effect.

Deputy Howlin asked if this was an alternative to court reform. It is not and I am willing to reform the courts in any way necessary, regardless of what happens. Even if the PIAB were never proposed, I would still be introducing this Bill because it is necessary.

Deputy Howlin used the phrase "actuarial cases". In High Court cases, where one is looking at a loss of earnings, it is frequently the case that two actuaries team up, from either side, to say they believe a discounting of future income flows should be done on the basis of 3.5% of capital value, or 4.5%. The pair come to court armed with all sorts of material to make an argument for a slightly different multiplier of loss of earnings to arrive at a capital sum. This is the kind of decision that could easily be arrived at by the courts taking a single view. They could state that, as far they are concerned, it is 4% or, if there is some particular aspect worthy of consideration, they could appoint an assessor and say 4% applies as the basis for a multiplier for loss of earnings into the future.

Deputy Howlin asked if the letter of claim will not be an incentive. It is not because one of the great incentives to making a false claim is that one can allow considerable time go by before making it. This is not fanciful and, from my experience as a barrister, I found that if somebody claims nine months after the event that he lifted a file which was too heavy at work and injured his back, nobody is in a position even to say if he was at work on that day or whether he complained about the injury to anybody. The suspicion is always in the employer's mind that the injury could have occurred while shifting stones in the back garden. There is no way anybody can ascertain after a lengthy period if a certain person was in the filing room on a certain day. The new system is designed to deal with such circumstances.

On the question of the taxation of costs, I agree that the present system needs to be reviewed. It is unsatisfactory in many ways. I do not want to begin kite flying but I believe that the system of taxation of costs is not designed to minimise cost. In many cases, the issue the taxing master decides is whether a solicitor was reasonable in agreeing a €4,000 brief fee for Michael McDowell, SC, for instance.

It is a very short day's work.

It might or it might not. If it were said that I was the most brilliant barrister of my era and that it was reasonable for me to ask for that sum of money and for the plaintiff to agree to pay it, is it to be the case that if the defendant gets a less brilliant counsel, an official of the State will say that it is not reasonable to pay Mr. Howlin, SC, €4,000? In fact, he might only command €2,000 in my estimate of what he is worth.

The Minister for Health and Children is negotiating with the surgeons on that basis.

It is a very serious problem that State officials are determining what is reasonable for a senior counsel to be charged on the basis of what the "market" - there is not a very little market in many respects - would accord to the most gifted senior counsel. To ask a State official or taxing master to say, for somebody else, that he does not think it reasonable for a solicitor to have concluded such an agreement with a less brilliant barrister poses a problem.

Is the Minister bringing the same meritocracy to the Cabinet as well? It would involve paying on the basis of ability.

That is right.

Allow the Minister to continue.

In general terms, I am not wedded to the taxing master system. I have considerable reservations about our system of taxation of costs and about the way in which it operates. I intend to examine it but I cannot deal with the present insurance package until I have sorted it out.

I will try to be brief. The Bar Council has reservations about the PIAB and I am sure the Minister is familiar with them. One of the reservations I share with the council concerns the fact that the claimant can appeal if the PIAB does not make awards. As I suggested to many witnesses, when the existence of the State was threatened by subversive organisations it was possible to establish special criminal courts. The survival of many industries is now threatened. I believe IBEC stated 2,760 jobs have been lost. I note from my experience in Wexford, as will Deputy Howlin, that many have gone out of business because insurance is now the second highest cost - wages are the highest - and a person with one or two lorries, for example, cannot afford it. Is it beyond our political imagination or does it require awful, intense legislation or votes to introduce a special insurance court that would address insurance claims. Maybe it would be possible that the work now being done by highly paid barristers could be done by solicitors. Perhaps my ignorance of the legal system leads me to conclude that but it seems, from my experience, that barristers enter the system at a level at which they are not needed.

The inconsistency of judges' decisions must be considered. They need to be trained because barristers will tell one that certain judges are claimant friendly. I made a comparison between the legal system and the GAA at a previous meeting. In the less sophisticated days of the GAA, I managed a Wexford team and looked for a particular referee depending on what county we were playing. I am thankful that, because of video evidence, referees are a little more consistent, but the judges are not; therefore training is required. The Minister has answered Deputy Howlin's question about the book of quantum but would such a book bring us into line with awards in Britain? For example, an award for soft tissue injury there is four times lower than here, despite the fact that we are a fairly injury free country according to European reports.

The Minister referred to single potholes causing awful problems and we are all familiar with single families and single potholes and single streets causing fierce problems. Since taking on this political job I do not get abroad often but when I do I see potholes all over the place. However, I do not want to name another EU country. Are we more legally responsible in this country? Are our public bodies and our local authorities more responsible for the misadventure of individuals than those in other EU countries? Some of the potholes I see in other countries would not be tolerated here for half a day or, if they were, somebody would be drowned in them and it would cost us a fortune. I am a layman with little experience of the law but are we different to these countries? Do we have to protect our citizens more against falling into such potholes?

Irish standards of duty of care are far higher, as are UK standards, than those in many civil law countries on the continent. I agree with Deputy Dempsey that when one goes to Spain or Portugal and is walking down a sidewalk and sees a 30 foot drop one wonders does anybody have an insurance policy.

Does anyone care?

Exactly. They have a different culture in regard to claims and I cannot answer the question as to how they survive with all of that. Some of the Deputies here would agree that the way out of this is not to say that an elderly woman who falls into a hole on her way to the shops should be given nothing by way of compensation, as would happen in some countries. We have to have a system where, if a county council digs a trench across a road which it in-fills and backfills, adding a poor surface dressing, and somebody has a blow out and crashes into a tree as a result, that the blame is borne by the people who were careless. Otherwise they would have a licence to walk off the job and not light anything or protect people from injury. The same applies to employers. We must compensate people who are injured when employers breach their employers' duties. We cannot have a situation where someone loses a hand working in a sawmill and it is dismissed as a risk of working in a sawmill.

Our system is based on faults not absolute liability. I am amazed when I go to Meditterranean countries and see what I see and I wonder how the owners of the land or the local authorities, or whoever it is, can survive. If they had the Irish system and left things as they do they would be run out of business. In effect, when Deputy Dempsey asked about whether we need a special court, his unspoken question was why do we not have a constitutional amendment and take all this away from the courts?

I do not wish to interrupt the Minister but will the PIAB be another layer of bureaucracy or litigation?

Who is going to decide? There will have to be independent people who are effectively above reproach to decide whether someone is telling the truth in cases where liability is an issue and to say whether €40,000 or €80,000 is the appropriate measure of compensation in any particular case. If we do not have that system we will appoint people who have an interest in the outcome. If, for example, the Department of Finance foot the bill for compensation and there was a Department of Finance official deciding on the compensation, people would get what the Department of Finance felt it could afford. With the greatest respect to the Department, we know what the result would be. People would not get what they consider to be fair compensation.

I am determined to bring about a series of reforms in Ireland which put us at least on the same level as a comparable jurisdiction, the UK, in respect of the cost of personal injuries to the society in general. There is nothing particular about Ireland which condemns us to paying four times the amount of money for whiplash than one would get in a British court. The public discourse on that, including today's proceedings, is of value.

The Irish Judiciary was for a while insulated from the economic reality that the system was visiting on the economy. The phrase "victimless crime" is sometimes used. There is no such thing as a compensation system wherein people do not pay. I welcome the IIF's current advertisements which bring home to everyone that the cute neighbour who has claimed is taking the money out of our pockets. A judge does not conjure up the money and present it to the plaintiff. The rest of us are paying for this in terms of jobs now, not simply in terms of taxes and insurance premiums. The Judiciary is becoming more attuned to the economic realities of the cost of the compensation culture. It has raised the bar on liability and I encourage it to do so. Some people might argue that it has become meaner but I would say it is more fair because it hands out a euro where once it handed out a punt and that is a significant change.

Was that in the past year?

Yes, in the past couple of years.

Deputy Lenihan, this is not your question.

With the measures I am taking, the PIAB, and the actions of the Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan, and the Minister for State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Fahy, in their areas of responsibility, we are creating a new climate in Ireland which is more sceptical of, and hostile to the compensation impulse, if I can put it that way. We now have to build on that changed perception in public opinion to emphasise that this is not victimless but that we all pay the cost. The Judiciary is independent under the Constitution and I do not want to change that but we have to encourage it to take a long, hard look at the consequences of what it does over a year.

I draw the committee's attention to the fact that this is not simply affecting employment and so on but that there are activities which are now shrivelling because of the insurance cost. The idea of running a sporting occasion, or a gymkhana or a horse show in a parish is becoming extremely worrying. One of my proposals is similar to an Australian practice for non-commercial voluntary activity which operates in a couple of states there. A higher degree of negligence must be established in those cases than in other cases, in other words, one has to bear in mind that it is necessary to distinguish between the duty of care which a voluntary committee owes to people to protect them from a horse that kicks out at them compared with what one might expect a fully working equestrian school to do.

The MIAB report suggested that a book of quantum be formulated based more or less on the average of the history of awards in this jurisdiction. When the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment was before this committee recently she said that is under way. Today the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform referred to the award for whiplash in the UK compared to here. Does he see merit in pursuing a different course and relating our book of quantum to the level of awards in the UK? Is he in favour of considering the European system before the book of quantum is finalised?

A claimant may reject an offer from the PIAB because he is dissatisfied with the level of the award and decide to go to court. If the award decided by the court is the same as that decided by the PIAB, is there any system for penalising the claimant for legal fees and so on?

I understand it is envisaged that such a claimant, even if he recovers in court, will in certain circumstances be liable to pay the costs incurred by his unreasonableness. It will effectively have the same status as a lodgment.

The recommendations from the MIAB to the Minister's Department stated that a system of case management should be adopted by the courts with a panel of judges specialising in injury claims. Can I take it from the Minister's comments about the courts and his reluctance to enter into that area that he is rejecting that recommendation?

For some pre-trial payments liability is not a big issue but loss of earnings and so on calls for a payment. Does the Minister see something along these lines being introduced? If there is a risk that a person's health may deteriorate rapidly in a short time due to an accident, is there merit in having a provisional damages payment for that?

In relation to case management, I do not believe legislation is required and I do not want to prescribe a system which is bureaucratic, but if Mrs. Justice Denham's report comes out in favour of the Judiciary taking on the role of tracking cases from beginning to end and judges taking a supervisory role in litigation, I will be fully supportive of that, but I am not convinced that this will in fact reduce legal fees. The result will be many procedures and conferences which lawyers will expect to be paid to attend. My proposals have a light touch, but if the rules of court are changed in order to bring in a provision for case management, I hope it does not have the effect of increasing legal costs because that is not desirable.

In relation to damages, there are cases in which it has been argued in the past that our present system is a bit strange. For instance, if one is in a car crash and the court decides there is a 10% risk of epilepsy developing, at the moment the judge does his level best to allocate damages on the basis that it could happen in the future. A system could be introduced that would allow one to go back to court if epilepsy did develop. Whether that is a good thing I do not know. It sounds reasonable until one envisages a situation in which one receives a whiplash injury and the judge decides that it should be gone in two years, but if it does not, the claimant should come back for more. That is a horrific thing to introduce to the system. People would be limping around for the rest of their lives. I am not 100% sure which is the appropriate approach. The jury is out on which would be better. One possibility is to give somebody an award for something that may never happen in the future; the other is to put people onto a drip-feed of damages for the rest of their lives.

How would the cases be closed? However, if one is subject to serious trauma and rendered almost a vegetable, requiring nursing for the rest of one's life, millions will have to be put aside to provide for one's needs. It has been argued that there should be a wait-and-see approach in this case, because if one dies after 18 months, one's relatives will receive a vast sum of money which was put aside for nursing. I have an open mind on this issue. On the one hand, one could save on costs and compensation but, on the other, if it turns out that a new form of nursing emerges in five years' time, should one be able to go back to the insurance company asking for a super duper nursing system? I am not sure of the correct approach to this issue but my basic instinct is to have a definite cut-off - the litigation is over, a certain amount of money has been paid, it has been dealt with as best as can be at the time, it is sufficient to deal with the contingencies and it takes into account the probabilities. That is better than having open ended litigation and enabling people to go back for more because the ingenuity of lawyers and the feelings of grievance on behalf of the plaintiff are so important. If one actually knew that one could go back for more if one's symptoms returned after three years, there would be a psychological tendency to feel the symptoms returning because of the desire for more money. That is the way the world works.

I want to remind the Minister of my question on the book of quantum. Should we isolate ourselves in this jurisdiction and not look outside?

The Deputy's point is a good one. If we are to persuade the Judiciary, through the Judicial Studies Institute, to take account of the book of quantum, it would be very useful to have intelligence gathered from other jurisdictions. However, the Deputy should note that everybody talks about the UK, which is meaner than Ireland on the question of damages. Nobody looks across the Atlantic to a certain other place. We must be careful: if we are to include damages from common law jurisdictions we will have to conduct a worldwide survey, bearing in mind that American awards for damages are substantially larger than ours.

I welcome the Minister to the committee and thank him for his views and proposals. Did the Minister seek the views of the Judiciary in framing his reform proposals, other than asking the Committee on Court Practice and Procedure, which is chaired by Mrs. Justice Denham, to examine matters? Deputy Tony Dempsey already mentioned that we had come across a lot of evidence for judge-shopping. The Minister should be much more familiar with this phenomenon than we are. I am glad to hear the Minister's views on this and that he has encouraged judges to raise the bar, so to speak. This is to be welcomed.

Am I right in saying that the eminent Kerry legal man, Robert Pearce, wrote a book of quantum not so many years ago? Perhaps these things need to be updated.

Is the Deputy talking to the Minister?

I would not dare insult the Minister. The Minister well recognises the questions that are inherent in that. I am glad - or maybe not - to note that the Minister disagrees with his former colleagues from the Bar Council in regard to the PIAB. As the Minister might already be aware, however, they did indeed paint a frightening picture here of the PIAB as a bureaucratic, costly monster. In fact they said it was fundamentally flawed and would cause utter chaos. I know the Minister touched on this already but perhaps he would talk briefly about it again in view of the stress the Bar Council put on it.

Finally, in regard to the reduction by two-thirds in the limitation period, which the Minister has already touched on, is he absolutely certain about this? There could be some genuine cases and, as public representatives, we would all hate for a genuine litigant or claimant to suffer because of a period of just one year.

Like everyone else, I welcome the Minister. Following on from the last speaker, the proposition put last week by the Bar Council and the Law Society was a very convincing argument, and so it should be. That is their profession. It was very interesting to listen to them and there were some issues raised with which I would have a deal of sympathy and which I would like to take up with the Minister.

I question the whole notion that because the PIAB will be paper based, people will not get legal costs. We do not live in a sanitised world removed from contact with people on a day to day basis, and the whole notion that people who might not consider themselves capable of putting a case even very simply on paper will not go to solicitors is ridiculous. They will go to solicitors to make the case for them even if it is to be read by an assessment group. I understand that perfectly.

The idea that they would not receive a fee - it could be a set fee for that type of advice and assistance - is wrong. I have to say this as I am very conscious that we have Myles O'Reilly here, and Myles O'Reilly and Associates will put together the report for our perusal to see if we agree with it. At the end of the day, the majority of people who go to court and have their cases settled on the steps of the court are very genuine people who do suffer an injury and usually suffer it through the negligence of others. However, accidents do happen for which nobody is responsible. It is as simple as that and I do not think anybody is saying otherwise.

However, I would be very worried that the whole climate now seems to have evolved on the basis that people who go to court looking for fair reward or payment because of an injury incurred through the negligence of others are all crooks. They are clearly not. Only the few get the headlines in the newspapers. However that does not take away either from the industry's argument or the whole notion that insurance costs are crippling us. They are, and they are a danger to the economy. We must keep that in mind.

I am one of what I suppose are a majority of people who believe that there is no point in continuously introducing further penalties in legislation if they are not going to be implemented. I agree that insurance costs are crippling us and that people should not make false claims. It is outrageous that people would make false claims against others, and there is a cost——

Does the Deputy have a question?

Does the Minister believe that there is a judge in this country who would actually give someone a ten year sentence for falsifying a statement? I do not believe there is. People should be punished and there should be a sanction, but the notion that someone would go to jail for ten years for falsifying a claim is outrageous and I do not think it will happen. There should be a punishment and disincentive and the big cosh should be out there, but I do not believe any judge would give a ten year sentence in this case.

To deal with Senator Coghlan's question, I know that the barrister and solicitor professions fear and dislike the idea of the PIAB and I know they have made a very cogent argument that it is surplus to requirements. They portray it as a dreadful monster which will be a bureaucratic imposition. If it has any of those characteristics and is the terrible failure they point out, it will not affect the volume of litigation at all because it will be an appalling failure and that is it.

I do not see what anybody in the legal profession has to fear from a body whose job it is to assess cases where there is no argument about the legal issues involved. It is purely a matter of the individual, having fallen into a pothole, been crashed into by a car or had something happen to him or her in the workplace and broken a leg or whatever, getting monetary compensation with the least possible formality and without invoking the jurisdiction of the courts. It is not a terrible imposition on plaintiffs in cases where there is no legal argument in terms of liability or on the issues that arise in a case to ask them before they invoke the jurisdiction of the courts to go to the PIAB and find out if a case can be dealt with on the basis of an agreement. If, say, Michael McDowell, has a broken leg and if his case went to court he would probably get €22,000 for it, he could be made an offer on the basis of the medical reports and the matter could be finished with there and then. Real lawyers who are in the business of working out what people's rights are, as opposed to simply being accident brokers, do not have anything to fear from that kind of system coming into play. Their client's interest is to get their compensation as quickly as possible and with the least fuss. The community's interest is the same.

Deputy Coghlan asked whether I thought that by reducing the three year period to one year there was a serious chance of injustice. I do not. At the moment the three year period also applies to libel writs. It has also struck me to ask how, in the name of heavens, one could hang on for two and a half years after a libel came to one's attention before then deciding to sue. In what circumstances would the interests of justice be served if one waited all that time?

(Interruptions).

I am still waiting to be libelled. I obviously have a thick skin. The one year rule will make people square up to the issue of whether they are going to sue. In combination with the other provision - that they cannot just issue the plenary summons with the one line about damages for negligence - they would have to face up well and truly and firmly within the time period provided to what their claim is and tell the other side about it. That will immeasurably improve our system of dealing with these particular cases and allow insurers and employers to close files instead of wondering whether the original letter they got from the other side was a bluff or if something is going to happen. They can close the file and say it is now finished anyway because a year has elapsed since the alleged accident and it is now off the books. It is hugely to the advantage of society that the period should be one year.

Where people are disabled or are underage, the one year rule does not apply. Things are also different in the case of somebody who has not discovered his cause of action. Take the example of a person who was working in a factory and after four years, it became apparent that he had been inhaling fumes that he could not reasonably have known about and that had caused him a condition, such as miner's lung or asbestosis. Under changes made a number of years ago the discoverability test was altered so that one cannot be deprived of a right to claim before one could reasonably have known one had it. I think that is a fair system.

Deputy Lynch re-echoed the points about the PIAB and asked if it will be a monster? I do not believe it will and I genuinely believe it deserves our support. I agree it is experimental and heading into uncharted territory. However, we do know the costs of the present system for employers. If we were reinventing that wheel now, we would not have many of the spokes that are currently there. To conjure up before this committee a great bogeyman of the PIAB without putting on the scales the serious implications for the economy and workers under the present system, is a slightly unbalanced view. My colleagues say all that is needed is the reform the court system. I am saying the reforms are coming but the PIAB must be given a chance to show it can succeed.

Deputy Lynch put it to me to imagine a judge giving a sentence for ten years to a person who falsely claimed for a serious accident. If it transpired that a person who received €400,000 for a serious accident and was fingered by their erstwhile partner that the injury was self-induced, they richly deserve a sentence. It is as if they stole the €400,000 from a bank. Can I imagine a judge handing down such a sentence? Ten years could be well deserved, for instance, if somebody organised a group of people to pretend they were in a taxi which drove into a hole. It might be a good deterrent for these individuals. If I did not have a sentence for at least five years, there would not be a power of arrest. There would not in certain circumstances be the power to apply for a phone-tapping warrant to show that a conspiracy among a group of people was being committed. Most people who exaggerate their claims will expose themselves to ten years imprisonment. By the same token, there are some cases where it is as serious as moderate sized embezzlement or a substantial sized bank robbery. In those circumstances, white collar crime should be treated the same way as ordinary theft. It is an elaborate form of theft for someone to make such a claim.

Can the Minister see a judge doing it?

I can see a judge doing it. I can see a judge doing it in the case I described. If someone made a wholly bogus claim, walked away with a substantial sum of money and afterwards was fingered by someone who was colluding with him or knew what had happened and was able to show it, and the evidence was there to show beyond reasonable doubt that it had been a con job, then I believe that person should know he faces a long time in prison.

I agree people should know because this measure will be headline news as soon as it is introduced. I agree also with this penalty for bogus claims. However, I cannot see any judge giving someone a ten year sentence.

I can, if the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform told the judge to do so.

It will be a serious deterrent. The verifying affidavit and claims from now on will have to contain a paragraph stating that the plaintiff in the case has been warned by their solicitor that this is the consequence of making an exaggerated claim. It will not be the scenario that nobody was told embezzling an employer's money will lead to ten years imprisonment. Under these proposals, in order to bring a personal injuries claim, the plaintiff will have to swear to the proposition that their legal adviser brought to their attention that they could face serious consequences for false claims.

What about whistleblowers?

I welcome the Minister and thank him for his presentation and detailed answers.

I was surprised by the attitude of the Bar Council and the Law Society to the PIAB. When this new body gets going - we have to accept there will be teething problems - does the Minister see the price of insurance coming down significantly? We have been taking submissions over the last eight days and yet I have heard nothing to justify the massive increases in insurance costs in the past three years.

We see now from press reports that German insurers are facing fines for being involved in cartels. Does the Minister propose to investigate if our insurance companies are involved in similar practices? There seems to broad agreement that people who suffer genuine and serious injury will be looked after properly. However, there are many motorists and firms paying enormous insurance premia. Will they be reduced and will there be an investigation into practices within the industry?

Just to update members, the owner of a shopping complex in my constituency, Westmeath, knows the work this committee is engaged in. He sent me figures so I could quote them. His premium last year was €110,000; this year it is €435,000. Those massive increases are unsustainable but the practice is still going on.

Does the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform see himself as a poacher turned gamekeeper among his colleagues in the Bar Council? Conor Maguire, SC, chairman of the Minister's organisation, the Bar Council - if the Minister has not yet been expelled - has already addressed the committee. Did the Government carry out a cost benefit analysis on the PIAB? If an individual does not accept the PIAB's assessment, they will go to the courts. Is the Government simply creating another bureaucratic operation in this regard?

Can the perjury Bill be incorporated in the PIAB legislation and simply get on with it? We hear a lot about perjury but where is the Bill? I do not know why it takes so long to put legislation through the Houses. This is an emergency and action needs to be taken. This is unprecedented, as the Chairman has outlined, and it requires unprecedented action from these Houses. To get this Bill through, I believe what the Minister is doing is right and that he is going in the right direction. Let us see if it works. Hopefully it will and will bring results. This is an emergency.

Finally, I want to discuss advertising by solicitors under no foal no fee plus a percentage off the top - solicitors demanding 25% if the award is over €20,000 for example. All that is happening, and the Deputy knows it. The Law Society has not taken any real action against its own members in that regard. This is going on year in, year out, and shoving up the price of insurance. The bigger the claims and awards, the more the solicitors get. That is a fact. Nobody seems to be investigating the lawyers in this regard.

In relation to advertising, the code is voluntary. Changes have been made by the Law Society regarding advertising by solicitors. Yet Tormey and Company in Athlone advertised on Shannonside Radio, telling everyone that they are a wonderful firm of solicitors, with ISO 9002 accreditation, and making it clear that one would be attracted to go to them. That type of advertising should be banned. The Minister will have to take the initiative. We were told here last week by the Law Society that it is up to the Minister to take action in that regard. The Law Society has its own voluntary code, but that is not good enough. I request the Minister to look at the situation and incorporate in a Bill a provision that advertising by solicitors will be illegal, apart from simple advertising of their telephone numbers in a directory.

To conclude, Deputy Nolan in his remarks last week highlighted the fact that one solicitor received €8 million working on Army deafness claims. These are not wild allegations. They are statements being made by people who have experience and by Oireachtas Members who have been receiving such complaints in their clinics.

I am glad the Chairman brought up the Army deafness issue. For years I have been looking for the opportunity to say the following. When the Army deafness issue emerged, I was an Opposition Deputy, along with some of the people here. I made a statement, I think on the Order of Business, but which was certainly covered in one of the evening papers at the time. I said that if that issue was not dealt with, there would be a bill between €200 and €300 million, and I suggested that there should be a statutory system of compensation for soldiers. I made that point then.

They could not hear you.

Obviously nobody could hear me. Legislator deafness took over and a vast amount of public money and resources were devoted to that whole issue.

In regard to advertising, it has been outlawed by regulations made by the Law Society and consented to by me. It is not a voluntary code, it is absolutely mandatory. It is prohibited behaviour to advertise any longer the promise of no foal no fee. I fully accept that there may be some hangovers from previous Golden Pages advertisements and things of that nature.

No, it was checked out. It follows a statement by the Senator at last week's hearings. I checked it out with one of the radio stations and I was told that what was being done was legal. The Minister's secretary might let us have the appropriate section of the Act.

The advertising of no foal no fee has been banned. If one is talking about a solicitor simply drawing attention to his own quality, the legal profession on both sides resisted that when it was brought in, and it was the Houses of the Oireachtas which said it was cartelism in the legal profession that prevented it. There were people, including myself, who said at the time that it was not in the interests of the public that people should advertise because litigation, unlike window cleaning, is not something which, the more it happens, the healthier a society is. I have always made the point that I do not believe advertising legal services is necessarily a good thing.

There is one area in which I can imagine such advertising would be a good thing and that is if there were a flat rate for conveying a house. If McDowell and Company, Solicitors, said we will charge €950 for conveying a house, regardless of the house value or whatever, and drew that to the attention of the public, that would be pro competition advertising, and would not have any deleterious effect. I agree with Senator Leyden that to get around the ban on no foal no fee advertising, by simply blathering on about oneself as specialising in an area, is a pale imitation of what has been put out. All I am saying is that the legal profession did not ask for it; it was told it must permit it.

By way of information to the Minister, at a previous hearing of the Committee of Public Accounts, the members were spoken to by many people, including the late Deputy Jim Mitchell, about the way solicitors behaved in relation to advertising and Army deafness. It seems to have fallen on deaf ears. We are asking the Minister to consider legislating in that area.

I will look at the advertising——

I want to make a point and put a contrary view because Deputy Lynch and I have a different view, just in case the Minister thinks this is a consensus. I dealt with the Solicitors (Amendment) Act, as spokesman for my party, at the time when we banned the no foal no fee advertising. This is important because if, for example, I want a solicitor to deal with the conveyancing of my house, I can look up the Golden Pages and have an array of people, and ring them seriatim - in the words of the Tánaiste, to shop around - to find out what I will be charged for the service. There are established firms in all our towns - some generational firms of solicitors - and often there is no room or it is difficult for young people or new solicitors to break into the market. I support the notion of people being allowed to announce their arrival and their availability in the local press or in a local telephone directory. That is quite separate from the no foal no fee issue. In terms of any amendment the Minister may be suggesting, I have strong views on that.

I agree with Senator Leyden. I would much prefer to have brought this legislation through earlier, but when one looks at the number of legislative proposals that are either about to come into Dáil Éireann or are currently before the Dáil or the Seanad, it is like air traffic over Heathrow. I want to get them through as quickly as I can. In the last few weeks of the last legislative term I pushed through an amount of legislation, with a lot of shouting and roaring about guillotines. I know I will ruffle a few feathers in saying this, but every day in Dáil Éireann, there is a monumental waste of time on the Order of Business - a monumental, unconscionable waste of time, and it is caused on this occasion by the Opposition parties.

Reform it.

I have no doubt that we will reform the situation, but I hope the Opposition likes the reforms when they come along.

Does the Minister recall flying back to save Larry Goodman's company - rightly so at the time, in the middle of summer? We all came back because jobs were at stake. There are thousands of jobs at stake at the moment because of insurance costs and the Chairman said some very important things about that situation. Let us prioritise. What is the Minister's most important Bill? It has to be the PIAB Bill.

I agree. I could simply have put this into the process and not brought it before the committee. I could have had no public debate on it. The reason I am having a public debate is that I intend that this debate, which starts now on this legislation, the consultation process, will shorten very dramatically the need for debate when it goes before the two Houses.

I hope the Minister is listening and hearing as well as being present. I have had the privilege of shadowing a number of Departments. I have noted already from the Minister's intervention today that the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has a propensity to graft in, on Committee Stage or Report Stage, wads of extraneous matter. The Minister is already announcing that what started off as a civil liability and courts Bill is now going to evolve, like Twizzle, into a court reform Bill. We will have difficulties in the House if we have a Second Stage reading on which we can build consensus and find on Committee or Report Stage matters that are not related to the insurance industry. We might build consensus about them but the Minister should give plenty of time. When he publishes a Bill, it must be comprehensive. No other Department I have dealt with in my 20 years in the Oireachtas has had such a propensity to graft in at the last minute. The Minister talked about getting Bills through in the final weeks of the last term. On one occasion eight pages of amendments to one Bill were announced on Report Stage. One Bill, the Minister will recall, was withdrawn by himself because even he was not brazen enough to suggest that it was appropriate to accept the raft of amendments going through on Report Stage without a proper Second Stage debate. If we are talking seriously about having legislation we all want, the Government must respect the Houses of the Oireachtas and give good notice to people who want to participate constructively.

As one who spent 20 years in Seanad Éireann and was privileged to be Leader of that House for five of those years, I know Seanad reform is being considered at present - this is the very reason we need the Seanad, because in my five years as Leader of the Seanad there was no guillotine of any Bill at any Stage or section. That is the difference between the Dáil and Seanad. The Seanad is absolutely vital for the protection of the Constitution.

It has changed. We have the guillotine——

I am not going back there for quite a while. The Minister to conclude. You could be going there yourself, Minister.

The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has a huge volume of legislation. I want the Opposition parties in particular to understand that I am pushing ahead with that legislation. If every sitting day the Opposition insists on wasting one to two hours of Oireachtas time, that is rubbish.

We have someone there——

(Interruptions).

This is the usual thing; they start shouting.

Who is the "they" all of a sudden?

I am used to it, Minister, I can assure you.

If we proceed at the pace we have proceeded in the first year of this Parliament, the electorate will rightly hold us responsible. I am not going to be held back. If it comes to issues such as the reform of the courts, it is not reasonable to expect that I would get two or three occasions in any given year to launch separate Bills on the courts. If, for instance, the Fennelly report comes to hand when I am preparing material on the courts, I will put it in by way of Committee Stage amendments.

Before publication?

I will do my level best to do it before publication, but I will get on with it in any event.

The Minister should respect the Houses.

I do respect the Houses. Above all, I want the public's respect for the Houses not to be undermined by constant time wasting, barracking, rubbish every day on the Order of Business which takes valuable legislative time away from the Oireachtas.

The Government parties would rule by decree if they could.

(Interruptions).

Minister and members, lest we get any bad habits from any other Chamber, can we conclude?

May I say one thing more, Chairman? I believe I have spent more time in Seanad Éireann than any other Minister for a long time debating the intricacies of all the legislation I have tried to bring forward. I respect both Houses. I do not think there is anyone as happy to engage in debate on the minutiae of any Bill that I bring before the Houses. The public expects both Houses of the Oireachtas to face up to their responsibilities. If there is an emergency let me get it through before Christmas.

The Minister might respond to the questions I asked about cartels.

The Deputy was asking me about questions which really fall into the Tánaiste's remit. Competition policy, the Competition Authority, cartelism, market rigging and all that come within the Tánaiste's bailiwick rather than my own. I cannot promise you anything in relation to that, but the other underlying question the Deputy asks is whether I can guarantee that premiums will fall. The only mechanisms by which premiums will fall is competition among insurers. If there is cartelism or if they are all engaged in maximising their premium income without regard to competitive forces, then there can be no guarantee. The strategy the Tánaiste is following to encourage competition - and I fully support her in this - is to make the market predictable and not a loss maker. I believe the PIAB will feed into that and that my reforms and those of Minister Brennan will also.

I believe the accident rate is declining in Ireland right across the board. As a result, the claim rate should decline as well. I believe the quantum is in decline at the moment. I do not know whether the Bar Council or the Law Society told the committee about this: anybody who wants to take a look around the Four Courts will find the huge volume of personal injuries cases - and their relative importance within the whole legal system - is in decline. I believe the climate is being set for Ireland to become a competitive market among insurers. If you want to know the truth, we must have an orderly, rational and sensible market to attract German, French, Swiss American and other insurance companies to Ireland, not a rip-off compensation culture.

On behalf of the joint committee, Minister, may I thank you for attending to assist us on this our eighth day of debating reform of the Irish insurance market. We look forward to working with you and your officials over the next four years. Thank you for the forthright way you express your opinion and for assisting our attempts to find the root cause of the serious problems highlighted by members. We will adjourn for five minutes.

Sitting suspended at 5.50 p.m. and resumed at 5.59 p.m.

I thank the members for their co-operation. Ms Dowling is most welcome. I am sorry for the delay in getting to her presentation. I do not want to repeat my introductory remarks other than to acknowledge our appreciation of the quite staggering MIAB report. It is to your great credit and I congratulate you on putting it together. I now invite you to make your her presentation.

Ms Dorothea Dowling

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to address the committee, to give it an overview of the issues and hopefully also to correct some misinformation which I would be concerned might influence the committee's deliberations.

Due to the escalating cost of insurance in Ireland the Motor Insurance Advisory Board was established to conduct a root and branch review of the motor insurance. It was the first such investigation to secure access to insurers' raw data, that is, the millions of records on the money that is coming in and exactly where it is going out. At the risk of abusing the privilege of being here this afternoon I record thanks to the members of the 18 person board, named in the appendices, who gave their services free of charge especially Cyril Connolly, the statistician who undertook the data analysis. In the MIAB we found it unwise to rely on consultants' reports presented by any vested interest, compared to the benefits of working with the raw data - hard facts and figures - upon which our report is based.

It might appear that the 67 recommendations at page 36 of the report relate only to motor insurance but, in fact, the underlying issues apply equally to all classes of liability claims cost. Many previous reports on the economic consequences of the cost of insurance in Ireland seem to have done little more than gather dust on a shelf somewhere. The MIAB report is different. The 67 recommendations are all part of An Agreed Programme for Government and an action plan was published by the Tánaiste in October 2002. I understand a copy of that plan was delivered to members yesterday.

It is not possible in the time allowed to summarise what is widely acknowledged as the most comprehensive study ever undertaken in this country but essentially the focus is on three factors. Members may find these flip charts convenient as we work through the report. Members may also note their questions which I will be happy to take when we have completed this review.

The three factors as reflected in the structure of the report are accidents, the cost of claims and the operation of the insurance market. As stressed in the MIAB report these factors must be tackled together. The reform will not work if the focus is in one direction. I propose to deal with each of the areas in turn, with reference to the board's recommendations, and will then welcome questions from members.

Let me turn to the question of accidents, the index for which is on page 45 of the report. While every incident of injury to a human being is one too many, the picture painted in some quarters that the cost of insurance in Ireland is nothing more than we deserve, our accident rate is simply not true. Over the three years of data examined by the MIAB 90% of policyholders have not been involved in any accident or any claim. Is it any wonder they cannot understand why their insurance premiums continue to rise? Those details are at paragraph A 96 of the report. That is not to say we must ever be complacent about accident prevention but we seem to have a culture problem with obeying laws that are designed for our own safety, unless there is a high chance of getting caught. Also there are undoubtedly deficits in our roads infrastructure. The fact remains, as demonstrated in the MIAB report, that in the previous decade the relative frequency of injury/accidents reduced by 20% while net premium income increased by 132%. Those details are contained at paragraph A 9, page 49, of the report.

On the question of severity, aside from pure property damage there are three broad categories of accidents - fatality, serious injury and minor injury. The death of a loved one has ramifications which extend far beyond financial implications so they must always be our priority as a civilised nation. However, in cold financial terms the highest claims cost is actually for those who survive an accident but with life long serious injuries. The frequency of serious injury is reducing. Less than 1% of cases are valued at €100,000 or over. If all accidents were merely fender-benders we would not be meeting here this afternoon.

Prevention of accidents, even those without implications for the cost of insurance, is the responsibility of the Health and Safety Authority in relation to workplace accidents and in relation to road traffic accidents, the responsibility of the Government's high level group, which is chaired by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

Enforcement of laws, fines and prosecutions as well as new measures, such as the penalty points system, as sought in recommendations Nos. 1 and 2 of the MIAB report, must act as real deterrents to irresponsible behaviour, quite apart from the cost of insurance. One can never buy the right to injure another person. The reality of life worldwide is that accidents do happen. That leads us on to the question of claims.

In the report, page 374 contains the index of the claims issue. One of the greatest challenges we face is the frequency of claims for which there have been a number of motivators in Ireland. Aside from the now banned no foal no fee advertising by solicitors, to which reference was made earlier, I shall give what might be regarded as a surprising example which underlies recommendation No. 45 on hospital bills. A person who would otherwise be entitled to free medical care faces bills from hospitals at over €600 per night if they have been involved in a motor accident solely because of the provisions of the Health (Amendment) Act 1986. Health boards pursue these bills in zealous correspondence which basically says to people, you should be pursuing a claim. Among MIAB members we had three instances of this happening and on two occasions it led to claims which would not otherwise have been made. Similarly, health insurers are writing to their policyholders before they agree to cover medical expenses arising out of accidents asking if the policyholder is making a claim and, if not, why not, and if the person has sought legal advice. Copies of that correspondence is available here for the joint committee.

It is not only the free rider who has been pushing the so-called compo culture. Naturally the Department of Health and Children has rejected out of hand recommendation No. 45 about amending the Health (Amendment) Act 1986, despite the fact that the Supreme Court found that road traffic cases represent less than 1% of the users of hospital services. We must be sure we have joined up thinking in Government. What is the point in health officials chasing accident victims and practically forcing them to make claims when this is having the effect of increasing insurance costs to the extent that they are losing jobs, losing businesses and there will be less tax revenue for health services and everything else? As Dr. Peter Bacon, in his report for the Bar Council, shows at page 5 of his report, in Ireland a lower level of the cost of accidents is paid by the State than in jurisdictions with higher taxes. Any influence the joint committee might consider appropriate on that matter would be greatly appreciated.

After claims frequency we addressed severity. No one, either on this committee or elsewhere, is suggesting that the seriously injured victim of a negligent action should not get any compensation. A fact which is rarely referred to is that of the MIAB recommendations nine are about making the position of the genuinely injured victim better, particularly those who have been the victims of hit and run or uninsured accidents. In reality, it is not the serious accidents which account for the cost trend. As we saw earlier, less than 1% of cases are valued at €100,000 or over. We do not need a cap on compensation for serious injury. The challenge we face is the high volume of low value cases for minor trauma. It seems that people have been given the impression that the mere occurrence of an accident entitles them to compensation. That is not the law of this land.

There are four types of claims - there is the genuine seriously injured victim of someone else's negligence. This is the person whose interests the whole system is supposed to serve and we fail them miserably. Independent research shows that claimants here wait six times longer than in the UK for negotiations to even commence on their claims. The data on that are in the table at paragraph C 159 of the report. This will be tackled through the Personal Injuries Assessment Board delivering a fast track system of compensation in genuine cases where legal issues are not disputed but there is no need for litigation overheads and no need for long delays. Respondents in these cases will be happy to pay reasonable fees to the PIAB which are a fraction of litigation costs which they would otherwise incur. This will enable the PIAB to be a break-even financial operation without any draw on the Exchequer or the taxpayer.

Aside from these assessment only cases, the second type of claim involves people who have been injured but where there has been no negligence. Of course these cases should be fought in the courts but justice is not an affordable option when insurers point out that even when they fight and win these cases, legal costs are rarely if ever awarded. There is currently no real deterrent to mounting a claim no matter how ill-founded. Recommendation No. 49 of the MIAB report calls for automatic awards of defence costs where a court has found that the person who is sued is innocent of any negligence. This recommendation is not reflected in any legislation drafted to date.

Third, there are those claims where the defendant is liable, the plaintiff may have sustained some injury, but they see this as a financial opportunity with better odds than the national lottery. Huge resources are employed in tackling these cases. Even when a judge accepts the evidence that a case has been exaggerated, nobody has ever gone to jail for falsely swearing under oath in an attempt to steal money from their fellow citizens who have contributed to the central insurance fund.

The final type of claim, fraud in the technical sense, is a relatively infrequent occurrence, although the committee will be aware of examples which have been in the media - particularly the "Prime Time" programme - of completely set up accidents, especially those involving rented cars, or of witnesses colluding to pretend there was a slip, trip or fall.

Exaggerated claims are our most frequent challenge and these will be tackled by the McDowell legislation. Until now, insurers have settled lots of these claims because they have made decisions on the basis of short-term economics. What has this done? It has encouraged other chancers to have a go. The committee may have noticed that most of the focus on claims fraud relates to cases fought by the self-insured sector and the two leading Supreme Court actions quoted in the explanatory note, as head 23 of the Civil Liability Bill, similarly do not relate to insurance companies.

Then there is the phenomenon of repeat claimants. The existence since the 1990s of the central claimant database has been a very significant factor in identifying the extent of this problem and in tackling it. However, it must be highlighted that the Data Protection Commissioner is currently reviewing the operation of that system. Depending on the outcome, further legislation may be required to ensure that this valuable investigative tool remains available for defendants. A list of the members of the central claimant database has been supplied to the committee. I would ask the committee to give this its particular consideration.

Litigation overheads are the biggest single aspect of the cost of claims and, on average, add 42% to every euro paid in compensation. The details are at paragraph C 108 in the report. They add 40% to every euro in motor cases, rising to an extra 56% on top of compensation in public liability claims. The details are all on page 416 of the report.

Until now there has been no alternative but to enter into a full blown litigation process, despite the fact that less than 10% of cases ever reach a court trial. In response to the MIAB's recommendation No. 39 on the PIAB, the interim board of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board was appointed on 27 November 2002 and the heads of the Bill were published on 29 May 2003. At this point, it is important in the interests of balance to record the valuable and dedicated services provided by most of the legal profession, without whom many citizens could not secure their constitutional rights. It should also be emphasised, as it is in the MIAB report, that litigation overheads do not relate solely to lawyers; they also cover fees for other experts who produce reports, etc. Equally, however, it must be pointed out that while 4% of injury claims in England involved barristers, in Ireland 70% of cases involved either junior counsel or both junior and senior counsel. The details for this are at paragraph C 153 of the report.

In the 90% of cases that never reached a court trial, most of this delivery overhead on professional fees was spent preparing for an oral hearing that never happened. Remember, that 42% is an average but in lower value claims the total of litigation costs far exceeds the compensation, being a minimum of 102% extra on a €7,500 case apportioned 50:50 in the Circuit Court. This is demonstrated on page 429 of the report at paragraph C 141.

As we saw earlier, our greatest challenge is at the lower value end of the range and there are three times as many personal injury cases in the Circuit Court at the lower end than there are in the High Court. Such overheads lack any sense of proportionality. As members of the committee will be aware, the Competition Authority has already published its preliminary findings on restrictive practices in the professions and lawyers, among others, are to be subjected to more detailed analysis.

There is a complete lack of transparency in the levying of litigation costs. The Personal Injuries Assessment Board had hoped to do a cost benefit analysis of the current system as a benchmark against which our future savings could be measured. However, so far the taxing master in the courts has refused to allow access to bills of cost on which determinations have been made. Other methods are now being explored to secure information on who is earning what and for what service.

Recommendations Nos. 40 to 43 and recommendation 49 relate to control, monitoring and transparency of litigation costs but these have not yet been tackled in any legislation. We must be mindful of the ingeniousness which can be employed once we start to change any system. Take, for example, the Wolff reforms in the UK which have streamlined the courts since 1999, but they have actually increased litigation costs and there is now a growing insurance crisis in the UK. We must ensure that the introduction of sworn affidavits and the other measures outlined are not all simply used as justification for raising litigation overheads even higher than their current unacceptable level.

Finally, we come down to compensation - what the claimant receives - but again there is a need for a caveat. This is because it transpired that in addition to the 42% which the MIAB found insurance companies incurred on litigation costs, claimants were handing over as much as 10% of their compensation to their solicitors. This is in addition to both sets of costs being paid for by the insurer. One could say that this is money which was stolen from accident victims because such activities have been contrary to the law since 1994. It is interesting to note that in the 70 pages of advertisements which appear in the Golden Pages directory just published for 2004, there is an asterix after the words "personal injury claims" which actually quotes from the legislation quoted in recommendation No. 4. How ironic.

Returning to claimants' compensation, this falls into two broad categories: general damages and special damages. Special damages are the easier to calculate as they relate to actual expenses incurred, such as medical bills, or actual losses sustained, such as unpaid wages while off work, but they are easier to calculate only in a mathematical sense because considerable resources are often required to validate the amounts alleged. To give just one example: claimants frequently allege that in addition to the earnings, which they declared to the taxman, they have a little sideline, which was earning them money until they were injured. Subject to proof of the reality of such earnings from the black economy, it has often been the practice of the courts to award such losses. Under the new civil liability legislation, only earnings consistent with records in the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social and Family Affairs will be admissible. In addition, the Personal Injuries Assessment Board legislation includes power of direct access to records with the taxman and social welfare to streamline validation of these claims by the board.

Within special damages there are cases where the claimant is paid on the double. For example, where there is no sick pay, the claimant may be in receipt of benefits under an income continuance policy, plus State benefits, which collectively mean that they are getting more money than they would have had in net take home pay while they were at work. Despite that profit, the courts will also award them their wages. Again, this is being tackled in the new legislation. All payments will be stopped in accordance with the recommendations of the Law Reform Commission on the deductibility of collateral benefits, and as sought in MIAB recommendation No. 48.

The purpose of general damages is to compensate for pain and suffering, for example, to put it crudely, the price of a broken leg. However, it is not that simple because individual, personal and medical factors must be taken into account. Currently, this is an area of mystery to the general public. There is no available source of information other than through lawyers. This will be resolved by the PIAB publishing a book of quantum based on today's levels of compensation. This is currently being compiled from defendants' settlement records, including those of the National Treasury Management Agency which handles claims against the State, and details of judges' awards from throughout the country which are being supplied by the Courts Service. To give members of the committee an idea of what a book of quantum might look like, I have brought with me an old one from the United Kingdom. Given copyright issues, I have been unable to photocopy the most recent ones.

Members may also be aware that compensation levels in Ireland are many multiples of those in the UK. This is according to independent research undertaken for the McAuley group. It is detailed on paragraph C 1.5(1), page 427, of the MIAB report. Indeed, other studies indicate that we have the highest level of compensation in Europe. Again, a loud warning must be sounded. Our awards for serious injuries are similar to elsewhere, but in the compensation of minor traumas, our awards are many multiples of our European competitors. It must be stressed that it is not within the remit of the PIAB to reduce current levels of compensation for either serious or minor injuries.

At this point, members of the committee may have noticed that we have identified a number of significant flaws in our system without once mentioning the insurance market. That point bears emphasis because many of the issues, such as exaggerated claims and excessive litigation overheads, apply equally to cases against the State and the self-insured sector to the extent that they are crippling economic activity in this country before we even look at the insurance market, to which we now turn our attention.

The section on the insurance market commences on page 513 of the MIAB report. Many people are tired of hearing of the events of 11 September 2001. They are also tired of hearing the tragic events in New York on that day being blamed for the cost of insurance. However, we must be careful to examine the insurance market prior to those exceptional external events so that underlying issues in the Irish market are not hidden.

As the MIAB rather provocatively postulated at paragraph C 360 of its report, it should not necessarily be assumed that insurers would welcome reduced claims costs. As demonstrated in the report, at paragraph M 14, throughout Europe insurance business has been written on the basis of returning an underwriting loss. It is accepted that claims costs and other outlays will exceed premium income and there is a reliance on investment income to produce a positive bottom line. Let us say claims costs are reduced by 50% and premiums are reduced by half. Now insurers have less cash flow to invest and, as every saver knows, the more money one has the greater the return.

What happens management expenses? If they are currently 11% of premium income and the premiums are halved, they will account for 22%. That is not just optics because most of insurers' costs are fixed, such as staff and buildings, for the volume of business they are doing. The volume will not change but the value of the premium will be halved.

Fear is an acknowledged marketing theory. We all know the terror of businesses throughout the country when faced with exposure to Irish levels of claims costs which could put many of them out of business. Therefore, it could be said that in the days of high investment returns, insurers had no reason to care about increasing claims costs as long as they got their price right.

Now let us deal with the reality of post-11 September. High investment returns are a thing of the past and capital may not be available to the industry because shareholders can get a better rate of return elsewhere, such as from the banks. Combine this with the fact that policyholders are no longer able to pay increasing premiums and many of them are adopting a higher measure of self-insurance because they have full confidence in their own safety record. Now the squeeze is on from all directions. Suddenly the level of claims costs is of critical importance, if even only for an insurer's own solvency. That is the point we are at today.

However, we must not let world events blind us to aspects of the local market which required attention long before 11 September 2001. On the question of competition, the MIAB report found that 17 companies in 1994 have been reduced to five. This is a result of mergers at European Union level. During the same period, the private car population increased by 70%. There were more consumers but less customer choice than ever.

The MIAB also registered unease that over 50% of the market is held by just two players. The committee has received a presentation from the chairman of the Competition Authority on its project to examine all classes liability business, not just motor, as contained in recommendation No. 67. It may sound paradoxical to some members of the committee, but we need insurance companies to make a reasonable level of profit in this country. We will always suffer from the fact that, in relative terms, this is a small market. A single company in the UK can have an annual premium income larger than that for the whole of Ireland. However, we will never attract new players with our negative claims profile unless there is a reasonable rate of return. It is only when we get greater competition in the market, both between existing players and new entrants, that insurers will need to focus on every cent of their outlay. The proposed reform of the personal injuries system will create the environment which has heretofore been lacking for the purposes of tackling claims costs.

The big question is that of payback to policyholders. This will have to be in terms of reduce premium charges. Some commentators have suggested price controls, but that is not an option. Aside from the fact that it is against EU law, there are a number of reasons for this, as discussed in the MIAB report from paragraph M 80 at page 540.

If it is not possible to fix prices, at least we have a right to know if we are being ripped off. This is where national law must produce greater transparency with regard to how premium charges are calculated. Instead of a bill demanding a payment of a certain amount, we have drafted a standardised renewal notice, set out at page 608 of the report. It shows the exact loadings and discounts, many of which the policyholder will be in a position to challenge.

Unfortunately many motor policyholders simply pay their renewals despite the fact that the MIAB report demonstrates price variances between companies of over 200% for identical risks. Tackling consumer inertia has been assisted by the regulation introduced by the Tánaiste last November which requires 15 days minimum notice of renewal terms plus certification of "no claims" history. This country also has the Equal Status Act 2000 which outlaws discrimination on grounds of age, gender, etc., which cannot be justified under the legislation, and it is essential that cases are pursued to the Equality Tribunal so that this law is firmly established.

Ultimately the only sure way to satisfy people that insurance costs are equitable and that savings going forward are passed on to policyholders is to analyse insurers' raw data. This will be a role for the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority which, as the committee will be aware, opened its doors on 1 May last. The Authority now has responsibility for implementation of the MIAB recommendations which would previously have been the remit of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

Just as we thought we were wholeheartedly moving in the right direction, a cloud looms in from Europe. This could add substantially to the highest level of claims cost we have ever experienced in this country. The Fifth Directive on the Harmonisation of Motor Insurance now proposes no fault compensation for cyclists and pedestrians regardless of the responsibilities of the vehicle driver. While Ireland has raised some objections, the EU seems determined about automatic compensation. That is all very fine if you live in mainland Europe where losses arising from accidents are paid mostly by the state from higher personal taxation and you would not have a compensation culture because in mainland Europe litigation arising from accidents is practically unknown. Aside from the consequences in the cost of insurance for the hard pressed policyholder, surely this is an unacceptable further death knell to the concept of responsibility for one's own safety. In addition to progressing our insurance reform programme, we now face an additional external threat and the committee may also have some views on how that might be resisted.

I conclude with the question many are asking: why was it not all done yesterday? As stated in the MIAB report, the fact is that successive political Administrations in this country have failed to tackle the vested interests which are probably costing us all twice what we need to be paying for insurance. The MIAB proposals may be unpopular in some areas where recommendations are seen as criticism of historical action or inaction, but there is no future in the past. We must now move on to properly tackle what is the Tánaiste's number one priority but there are no quick fixes here. However, more has happened in the past nine months than in the previous nine years.

Thank you for your attention. I would now welcome questions from the committee.

Thank you, Ms Dowling. When you say "vested interest", do you believe there is a cartel in existence here or in Europe? I put this question once or twice to other witnesses.

Ms Dowling

The MIAB stated in its report that it could find no evidence of collusive behaviour by insurers, but there were a number of aspects of the market and a number of features which emerged from the analysis of raw data for which we ourselves could not find a logical explanation, and it was for that reason that we recommended that the Competition Authority undertake an investigation. As the committee will be aware from the presentation from the chair of the Competition Authority, that study has now been extended beyond motor insurance, as sought by the MIAB. We concentrated on motor insurance because that was our brief but also because it is a compulsory area where the usual market dynamics of supply and demand might not operate effectively. That has now been extended beyond the area of motor insurance to the area of public liability and employers liability which would be the areas of most concern to businesses at present. Having said that, when one gets down to the detail of some of the newspaper reports I have seen quoting premium increases where businesses are rightly complaining, one finds, for example, that there can be a substantial element of property insurance because of the extraordinary climatic conditions which we have had on some occasions. Obviously that is something which is outside the remit of the MIAB and indeed the study being undertaken by the Competition Authority, but similar issues may arise there.

Because of the decline of equities in the past three or four years, did you make a recommendation on the regulation that no more than 15% of funds from premiums can be invested in property in Ireland? Would you advocate that the percentage should be higher or was that within your remit?

Ms Dowling

The MIAB did examine investment returns in some considerable detail, although we stressed that we were not experts in investment strategy. However, we did express some reservations about the manner in which investment income which was secured within a composite insurance company - by which I mean a company which would be involved in property insurance and also liability insurance - was allocated to the property underwriting account versus the liability underwriting account. As we tried to delve into this further, we discovered that there was considerable inconsistency in the manner in which different insurers allocated investment income to different underwriting accounts. In so far as we made a recommendation in this area, we recommended that the regulators review the solvency supervisors regulations. At the time that recommendation was made, the regulator would have been the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. That role has now been taken on by the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority and our understanding, in the MIAB, is that they are undertaking a review of the similar regulations throughout Europe to ensure that we are employing best practice, to ensure that we are consistent but also to ensure that we are not in any formal or informal way discouraging new entrants from our market. To take the example the Chairman quotes, a company may say that it does not want to go into Ireland if the authorities will be dictating that it cannot put more than 15% into property. Our understanding in the MIAB is that that aspect will be reviewed in accordance with our recommendation or, if not within that recommendation itself, it would be a matter for IFSRA. I must also explain that at European level, following 11 September, Enron and many other matters, there is an in depth review of the calculation of solvency, the value of assets and how they are to be assessed for those purposes. I suspect there will be EU measures also to be accommodated.

I would not mind hearing more from Ms Dowling on the subject of self-insurance. There seems to be noticeable differences between the established insurance companies and the somewhat more independent approach being taken by the self-insured sector. I am anxious to know if Ms Dowling is happy that the Government is doing enough to encourage further self-insurance. There is, in fact, legislation in the United States governing, encouraging and providing incentives for self-insurance as a real competitive force within the domestic insurance market. This committee appears to be mindful of the fact that it is possible, notwithstanding the many changes and reforms being envisaged by various Ministers and because of the smallness of the Irish market to which she referred, that it may never become a very hot marketplace for large insurers to enter and compete. In that particular context, what are the prospects for encouraging self-insurance or what methods could be used to encourage more self-insurance on a reasonably risk free or secure basis?

Ms Dowling

From the copy of the list on the database, the committee can see that the number of self-insured is growing by the year. Chairman, I noticed that members of the committee were asked to declare any conflicts of interest or otherwise. Perhaps it is also incumbent upon me to suggest that my day job, which pays the mortgage, is as group liability manager with CIE which is a self-insured organisation. It is important to put that on the record.

Thank you for doing so.

Ms Dowling

In that context, rather than with my MIAB or PIAB hat, I would deal with the question in this manner. Self-insured companies, of which there are many, such as Dublin City Council, CIE, the ESB, An Post - most of the utilities - and some relatively small but high profile businesses such as Supermacs, for example, which is owned by Pat McDonagh, that are doing this are in a different business to that pursued by insurance companies. An insurance company's business is to turn around claims and get its pricing and reserves right whereas a business person's primary concern is to make their product as competitive as possible. The self-insured sector takes a longer term view, which is understandable.

If, for example, I ran a fast food chain or a hotel and word got around that everyone who slipped on my premises would get a few bob, people would be queueing at the door. An insurance company would not necessarily look at matters in that light; it would merely be concerned with whether Cassidy's hotels paid adequate premiums last year to cover its claims costs. The strategy in respect of self-insurance is, therefore, different.

There are also other aspects. The "Prime Time" programme, which many members may have seen, contained a number of videos relating to cases where liability was successfully contested or the extent of the exaggeration was successfully demonstrated to the court. It may not have been apparent to the committee, but those of us in the insurance sector recognised the fact that most of those cases arose out of the self-insured sector.

I will outline the example of our own operations in the central services which are provided by the holding company to the three operating companies. In my department we have 24 very bright investigators who are on call 24 hours a day. Essentially, our remit is to get to the scene of the accident before the ambulance chasers. That can be contrasted with the position of an insurance company, which must wait until an insured person gets around to telling it that an accident happened. Defence evidence begins to disappear within hours of an accident. To an extent, there is a different approach and one also has greater control over the risk.

There are considerable benefits, from a societal point of view, of a level of self-insurance because there is no question of it being dumped on the central fund. However, for various reasons, the scope for self-insurance seems to be reducing and that does not make much sense. Reference was made to efforts the State might make to promote self-insurance, but it is important to emphasise that only road traffic insurance is compulsory. There is nothing to stop companies, if they are large enough, from being self-insured. For example, it makes no sense to force a company of the size of Cement Roadstone Holdings to take out motor insurance with a company in Ireland which might have a smaller asset base than CRH. We should be extending the opportunities from exempted status from the Road Traffic Acts but, in respect of other areas, there is nothing to stop companies from being self-insured. However, a company could encounter a catastrophe which would wipe it out in one year. Many business organisations - the Chairman may be able to elaborate on this - such as the Irish Vintners' Federation, are considering people coming together, not just in respect of handling claims and reserves but also in terms of fighting claims and the installation of videos, which can work much better if a group of people are involved.

That is correct.

Ms Dowling

There are some measures which could be taken to encourage this, but it is largely within the control of business interests at present to do so.

What measures can the Government take to facilitate the creation of pooling of risks among self-insured groups, sectors or companies?

Ms Dowling

There are no barriers to it being done at present, with the exception of compulsory motor insurance. I agree that there is greater scope for very large companies - and only them - to be exempted from compulsory motor insurance regulations. There must be balance and fairness. We must ensure that we do not bring about a situation where genuinely injured parties are left without money on foot of a court action in respect of a large sum against an insolvent corporate entity. That would fall back on the remainder of the policyholders because it would have to come out of the uninsured motoring fund. There is undoubtedly scope for it.

I welcome Ms Dowling. The MIAB did tremendous work in compiling its study and recommendations, of which there are 67. Is she disappointed that of the 53 such recommendations which applied to Departments and agencies, only nine have been fully implemented to date? Does she wish to comment on the urgency required in terms of having some of them implemented?

I am interested in the issue of transparency to which Ms Dowling referred in respect of the IFSRA. Is new legislation, similar to the Consumer Credit Act, which relates to banks and building societies, required to allow that body to investigate matters beyond the raw data provided by insurance companies? Will she indicate how the IFSRA has the authority to go beyond the raw data to which I refer and ask insurance companies to justify changes to premia from time to time?

It has been stated that the PIAB will create a lawyer free zone. Does Ms Dowling believe it will be successful in that regard? The book of quantum is being prepared at present. Is this being done by the PIAB and when will it become available?

As Deputy Wilkinson stated, media reports about German insurers that are facing fines have been brought to our attention. Two of the companies on the list of those facing fines in respect of pricing cartels are Axa and Allianz, both of which are players in the market here. Will Ms Dowling comment on what can be done in this country in order to ensure that there is no exposure to unnecessary predatory pricing or, in light of the small number of players in the market, the prospect of a cartel being established? There may be a view abroad that there is a cartel in operation but I am not sure about that.

Deputy Wilkinson also raised that point. Does he wish to put a question to Ms Dowling?

Yes, I raised that point earlier when the Minister came before the committee. In view of the fact that a number of German companies are being investigated in that light, do such investigations apply here or could action be taken to investigate the insurance system? There is no justification for the increases in premiums introduced during the past three years in particular. People and companies that have not made claims have been asked to pay enormous increases. It is impossible to justify that. I would go as far as to state that this exercise will not be a success unless premiums are reduced to realistic levels because the current levels are totally unjustified. Is there a cartel in operation and are we going to do something about it?

Ms Dowling

On the question posed by Deputies Hogan and Wilkinson, I can only say that the MIAB had concerns and has asked for the Competition Authority, which holds responsibility for such matters, to investigate the position. If we had been able to find any evidence members may be assured that we would have produced it. All we have are some indications of matters not being as one would expect them to be.

Deputy Hogan posed a number of questions in respect of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board. The PIAB is quite separate from the Motor Insurance Advisory Board, but I have the honour to have also been asked to chair it. The membership of the board is quite different to that of the MIAB and represents all the stakeholders and interests involved. To put it politely, some of the evidence produced by the Law Society and the Bar Council is disingenuous and irresponsible.

That is a fairly——

Ms Dowling

To take one example, at 8.15 a.m. on 16 July the ministerial committee to which the Minister, Deputy McDowell, referred, which is being chaired by the Tánaiste and which also includes among its members the Minister for Transport and the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey - I also attend meetings of this committee as the thorn in its side from the MIAB - met representatives of the Bar Council and discussed this matter in considerable detail. The committee had previously received a large amount of correspondence from the council. While I have not had time to read the transcript of the committee's proceedings and I am relying on media reports, which may be quite unwise, one gets the impression that the council had never spoken to anyone.

The Law Society acknowledges there had been a meeting.

Ms Dowling

It was not a question of recency. I am interested as I have not read the transcript. As I have stressed and the MIAB has recognised, there are undoubtedly dedicated lawyers without whom society could not work properly and industry could not work properly without insurance. All those good points must be accepted and stressed. The lawyers themselves say only 2% of their profession are causing the problems but, as underlines the relevant MIAB recommendation, if only 2% of a profession are causing problems, then it calls into question the ability of the other 98% to continue with self-regulation, about which the MIAB has called for a considerable review following the Competition Authority's conclusions on restrictive practices in the professions.

I have not had the opportunity to look at the transcript but what I read in newspapers was disquieting for members of the public, if not for political representatives. Figures were bandied about such as the PIAB costing €30 million. I presume the Law Society provided the committee with a copy of the report compiled by Mr. Des Peelo. I do not criticise him in any way because I know well him from personal injury litigation and he can only have proceeded on the basis of what the society told him. However, perhaps it was not pointed out to the committee that of the €30 million which was stated to be the cost of the PIAB, loss of productivity in the courts accounts for €8.4 million because of the volume of cases that will not be dealt with by officials in the Courts Service.

Mr. Bacon's report referred to him extensively.

Ms Dowling

The Law Society is Peelo, the Bar Council is Bacon.

The Law Society never mentioned Peelo.

Ms Dowling

That is the basis of the €30 million. The PIAB has had the pleasure of working with the Courts Service, which is supplying the board with details of awards by judges throughout the country since 1 January 2003. If 15% of the resources in the Courts Service are freed up because the PIAB reduces the number of litigation cases that are commenced, I suspect they will be well used in the outstanding issues in family and criminal law.

I refer to Dr. Peter Bacon's report. Lawyers tend to bang on about cost benefit analysis but they have made 50 proposals for reform of the courts system. These related to parallel court reform because the two are not mutually exclusive but there not has been an indication of one cent of a reduction in legal fees anywhere along the line. At least the MIAB's implementation group report forced the insurance industry to provide its estimate of a 31% reduction in insurance costs if all the recommendations were properly implemented. I have the highest regard for Dr. Bacon, having met him during similar debates, and his cost benefit analysis states the court reform programme will produce savings of €150 million, which will mean a 1.25% reduction in insurance costs. We are proceeding with the parallel court reform programme for the purposes of a 1.25% reduction according to that cost benefit analysis.

It is not possible to do a cost benefit analysis on something that does not exist. The PIAB intends to proceed by being closely monitored - under the legislation it is answerable to Oireachtas committees, etc. - to establish a benchmark of the current system with real data against which we can be measured and we shall rise or fall in terms of credibility in our operations measured against the current position.

It is not a matter for the board whether that is the right way to go. Government policy was to establish the PIAB and its interim membership is there to comply with that. The devil is in the detail and that is what concerns the board. It is quite clear the current system is not working and common sense tells us all that. I pointed out examples where the costs exceeded the compensation. With regard to litigation overheads, Dr. Peter Bacon stated:

There is no economic law that states that a system is inefficient beyond some proportionate level of operating costs. For example, product mark ups of 100% are not unusual retailing.

However, we are not talking about retailing, we are talking about delivery of justice to genuine injured parties who have a requirement and an entitlement to their compensation as quickly as possible and those who are not genuine and not entitled to compensation should be dealt with in a court system where justice is an affordable option for all parties. We do not have that at the moment. The PIAB and the court reform programme are complementary and notmutually exclusive. The two must be done together.

I welcome Ms Dowling and I commend and compliment on her on the work she has done. She said more work had been done over the past nine months than over the past nine years. Just as the devil is in the detail, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Everybody who has given evidence to the committee has said insurance premia are continuing to rise. The work being done is not effective. We have witnessed false dawns in the past when jury courts and the use of two senior counsel were abolished and it was promised that they would have impacts, which did not materialise.

I very much welcome Ms Dowling's rebuttal of the Law Society's submission. I do not say I accept it but at least it was a robust rebuttal. I am no wiser regarding the question I put to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. What is the expected cost of the PIAB and who will pay?

Ms Dowling and the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment declared that the PIAB will be a paper driven exercise. With regard to the board being an effective vehicle to divert as much as possible away from the courts if it is a paper based and lawyer free zone, who will cause the medical evidence to be gathered or the actuarial assessment of loss to be made? Will that be the work of the PIAB? How will that take effect? What is Ms Dowling's best guess at the percentage of cases that could be taken away from the courts by the PIAB?

I am still not clear about the book of quantum and I have asked all Government witnesses about this. Ms Dowling says it is being prepared with inputs from the NTMA and the Courts Service. What is it? The Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment has given an indication of what she believes it to be. Is the book of quantum to be an analysis of all recent claims in the State to put guidelines values on various injuries?

She referred to the Health (Amendment) Act 1986. Is it still her view that it is wrong that the health service should claim the cost of medical care from people who are compensated for such care? With regard to recommendation No. 45, why should the board recommend that a body other than the insurance company which is paying the claimant to cover that care, should not pay that into the service? Why should the health service be at a loss for that?

My last point was one I raised with the Minister earlier. Regarding the levying of legal costs, what is your view of the role of the taxing master? Do you share the Minister's view that reform is needed and do you have specific thoughts we might usefully incorporate into our report?

Ms Dowling

The MIAB has no confidence in the current system for assessing legal costs and has therefore recommended that the role of the taxing master be taken completely away from the legal and the court system with a new body being set up.

What would that body be?

Ms Dowling

We have not specified that but we want it taken away from the legal profession. It is totally lacking in transparency and the public has no confidence in it at present.

In relation to the Health (Amendment) Act, I apologise for not making my point clearly. It is not a matter of the health authorities being wrong to claim the cost of 1% of the users of the hospital service; the point is made in the context of this pushing the compensation culture. Those currently entitled to free medical care should not cease to be entitled because they have been involved in a road traffic accident, which is the only - and discriminatory - situation in which that applies. As I said, the correspondence is available to the committee who will see from the tone and content of the letters that people are being pushed down that route. In the board we had three examples of that with two cases leading to claims that would not otherwise have been made. It is short-term economics again. These people are entitled to free medical care.

This is a moot point. At a time when hard decisions are being made, with health rationing in some countries - I claim some experience of this - in relation to the 1% of patients being victims of motor vehicle accidents, that is 1% of 750,000, so it is not insignificant.

In one way numbers are irrelevant. What is relevant is the severity of the industry, the duration of the hospital stay and the nature of the treatment required. Are you saying the general taxpayer and the health service should pay that cost rather than the insurance industry? What I pay for insurance covers me against medical costs, so that is almost like saying the general taxpayer should carry the cost rather than the insurance company, which gets paid for that particular risk, if I understand what you are saying.

Ms Dowling

It is becoming increasingly difficult obviously to make this point. We are talking of joined-up thinking and there is little point in a person being forced to make claims for €600 for an overnight stay in hospital which will result in a personal injury claim being made, with litigation overheads, that will not otherwise be made. In turn, that will cause some company's premiums to increase substantially - perhaps the person's employer——

Where does the €600 come into it?

Ms Dowling

These are the bills being issued by the hospital——

That is a nightly rate but it could just as likely be €600,000.

Ms Dowling

Those rates, €600 per night, are levied on people who would otherwise be entitled to free medical care and are at a rate considerably in excess of what the hospital would be prepared to accept from an insurer for the same bed.

The economic cost.

The economic cost.

Ms Dowling

These are issues which have been bandied about and litigated on in some detail. We are talking about people who are currently entitled to free medical care but because they have been involved in a road traffic accident they are subjected to zealous correspondence from health boards as to why they are not making a claim.

What you are saying is true. We know it is true.

Ms Dowling

That is the point. It is not a matter of the short-term merits of whether a hospital should be entitled to recover that money in addition, by the way, to what they get from the health insurer.

Effectively there should be no claim by the health board until the claim has come to fruition. Is that right?

Ms Dowling

No——

If they have medical care they get the medical care——

Ms Dowlling

Exactly.

——up to the point the award becomes a reality.

Ms Dowling

No.

Ms Dowling

The first part, not the second part. This is the crux of Dr. Peter Bacon's thesis also. If one looks at page 5 of his report one sees this is the only country to have this kind of personal injury litigation and one of the reasons is that the State covers less of the cost of accidents than happens elsewhere. We are essentially forcing people to make claims.

If the Deputy was entitled to free medical care in the morning and broke a leg at work, he would not be levied with the €600 a night, but if he broke that leg in a car accident he would be levied with it. Can someone explain why that is rational? I can understand why the Department of Health's initial reaction is to reject this but we must have joined-up thinking.

Can we move on to the next question?

Ms Dowling

I apologise, but I thought I had dealt with this. The book of quantum is being published by the Personal Injuries Assessment Board and it is being drawn up from the current settlement records of defendants, including those cases handled by the National Treasury Management Agency, the self-insured sector and judges awards throughout the country.

Over what period?

Ms Dowling

The data commence in January just gone, when we introduced the euro. From the point of view of handling the data it was the wisest thing to do. As it transpires it was also the wisest course of action because we understand from the lawyers that compensation has reduced substantially since January because of the introduction of the euro. That is now the level.

It is the only thing that reduced.

We welcome it.

Ms Dowling

Certainly legal costs have not gone down.

January 12 months ago?

Ms Dowling

No, January just gone.

But the euro was in place for 12 months.

Ms Dowling

Yes, but we were beginning to see its effects in January this year and the reduction was attributed by the lawyers to the introduction of the euro.

Regarding who pays, I thought I had answered that. Respondents will be asked to pay a fee which is a small fraction of their litigation overheads at present. Corporate entities cannot defend itself in court or respond to correspondence without involving a solicitor. As the PIAB has no role for advocacy there is no need for lawyers and hence no litigation overheads.

It is analogous to the Employment Appeals Tribunal which has oral hearings, though the PIAB will not. One can take barristers and so on there but if one wins one's case one gets no legal costs. There is no constitutional right to legal costs. However, we are not denying anyone the right to legal advice and if someone chooses to employ legal advice that is up to them.

As to who will make the assessments, it is important to stress——

What is your best guess of what it will cost?

Ms Dowling

That will be discussed by the board next Tuesday. It will be a break-even financial exercise so it is down to what is paid in rent, etc. I will come to the overall business strategy in a moment. In relation to who pays, it will be the respondent, not necessarily the insurance company. There will be huge State and self-insured sectors.

Regarding assessment, the PIAB will be quite different to the adversarial litigation system. It is not a question of grafting on something from another jurisdiction but of working out what is an appropriate solution for an Irish problem by those involved - the employers, trade unions, the insurance federation and so on.

The PIAB will deal with genuine claimants and will ensure the claimant gets that to which he/she is entitled, no more and no less.

It will work out the actuarial loss and commission the medical evidence?

Ms Dowling

The medical evidence on which the assessment will be based will be the medical report of the treating doctor. At present in personal injury litigation we not only have judge shopping but doctor shopping. This will not be acceptable to the PIAB. Contrary to the impression the legal profession sometimes seems to give, the average Irish citizen is quite capable of filling out a form with their name and address and attaching a report from a treating doctor.

The evidence on which the Personal Injuries Assessment Board will rely will primarily be the report from the treating doctor. If the Personal Injuries Assessment Board considers the report is not adequate - for example, if it does not give a clear indication of whether a fracture would result in arthritis or, alternatively, if a respondent says he knows he will not win the case in court, he does not want to incur a whole lot of litigation costs, it is not a fraudulent claim but he is exaggerating the pain end of it - there will now be a panel of independent medical examiners who will examine the claimant and the report will be given to both parties. This will then be the basis of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board's assessment. Members may have seen the advertisements from the Personal Injuries Assessment Board for the panel of medical examiners which appeared in the national press in June. As of today, there are more than 300 submissions which will be considered by the board on Tuesday. It appears there will be medical examiners throughout the country in the required specialities to undertake these assessments. As far as special damages are concerned, I have already mentioned that there will be direct access to the Revenue Commissioners and social welfare records to validate the financial aspects.

As far as the overall business strategy is concerned, the Personal Injuries Assessment Board is considerably encouraged that is has got matters so right. The lawyers project that there is a need for 305 staff, at an annual cost of €30 million, to deal with 9,700 claims. Actually we will have just over 100 staff, one-third of the projected staff number, the cost will be €8 million, approximately one-third of the projected cost, and we will be dealing with 27,000 claims. Perhaps these comparisons give some indication why litigation overheads are so high.

One-third of staff will do three times the work load?

Ms Dowling

It appears extraordinary that the legal profession do not even seem to know how many personal injury cases there are. For example, one of the reports to which I referred earlier is based on the premise that there are three times as many personal injury cases in the High Court as there are in the Circuit Court. The case is, in fact, the reverse because the greatest volume is at the lowest value, not in the High Court.

Ms Dowling said in her opening remarks that there is no quick fix. What did she mean by that?

Ms Dowling

Perhaps it would be best to illustrate what I mean with an example. Two of the MIAB's recommendations related to no foal no fee advertising. The MIAB was of the view that there should be no advertising as such. Solicitors put their names and addresses in the directory so that people in an area could look them up but they were not advertising for personal injury claims. The no foal no fee advertising has disappeared but the rules introduced by the Law Society were drawn up without any consultation with the MIAB to find if it was what it had in mind. The Motor Insurance Advisory Board is not suggesting that anyone is subject to the PIAB's permit. However, as a matter of courtesy, the Law Society should have asked if the MIAB thought the rules they were drawing up dealt with the problem it identified. Even when the rules were first published, we had grave reservations about them. If the Chairman has received the Golden Pages 2004 directory he will see why we had grave reservations in this regard because, frankly, very little has changed. Speedy implementation is not to be welcomed if there is not proper implementation.

That clarifies the Deputy's point?

It also clarifies a point I raised in relation to the Law Society.

Ms Dowling

The Motor Insurance Advisory Board has on numerous occasions called on the Law Society to undertake a nationwide audit of the percentage taken from claimants' compensation. In law these people are entitled to their money back. The Law Society has refused to do so.

Ms Dowling is very hard on the Law Society.

Ms Dowling

The MIAB does not wish to be popular with anyone except premium paying policyholders. We are very pleased that motor insurance has now ceased to increase. However, it takes some time for people to appreciate that. For example, if premiums went down 10% in the last month but increased by 40% in the previous 11 months, someone getting a renewal notice tomorrow will see an increase of 30%. They do not necessarily appreciate that were it not for the MIAB it would have been an increase of 50%. In that sense the competition is slower to get through to policyholders than, say, buying food products.

Ms Dowling said she would be dealing with 27,000 claims per annum. How was that figure established? Is it based on researching the number of uncontested claims? Is €8 million the running cost per annum or is it setting-up costs? On the probable success of the PIAB, would it sound the death knell for PIAB if awards paid by the courts exceeded those awarded by the PIAB? If so, how could this be guarded against? Is Ms Dowling satisfied that the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority's brief in relation to its monitoring role will be sufficient to confirm to ordinary insured people that cost savings are being passed on to them?

Given that Ms Dowling has said that our awards for minor injuries are higher here than those in the UK and that the level of awards for serious injury are fairly comparable with other jurisdictions, should the book of quantum take that fact into account and make adjustments accordingly?

Ms Dowling

I will take the questions in reverse order. It is a matter for the Oireachtas, not for the PIAB, to attempt to reduce compensation awards. If the PIAB were to award less than the courts, it would be a pointless exercise because the matter would simply be referred to the courts. In regard to the courts deciding to undermine the PIAB, I sincerely hope the Judiciary would not set out to do so. However, it is necessary to stress that the cases the Personal Injuries Assessment Board proposes to deal with are not cases which are currently being heard by judges. We are talking about the 90% of cases where no hearing is required, yet these cases have on average a 42% litigation overhead. This is what we are making inroads into. We are not trespassing on the jurisdiction of the courts.

Is it not true to say that even where liability is not contested the case still goes to court to establish the level of the award? I am aware of such cases.

Ms Dowling

This rarely happens and it is usually because one or other of the parties is being unreasonable or not preparing the litigation properly. Obviously the way to do so is to make a lodgment. I would be more concerned if we were dealing with the old courts system - this was a bit "free ride" and "money for old rope". This is not the way things will be from next year because under the new legislation there will be reverse tenders, or lodgments, from day one of the litigation. Under the previous system one could receive an award from the PIAB and then decide to muck around, go the litigation route and have a free ride. From next year on, the party who is satisfied with a PIAB award can tender that amount from day one of the litigation, which puts the other party at risk for both sets of legal costs and for other financial penalties such as interest which may apply. People will now be concentrating their minds very early on on litigation, where heretofore, far from needing to do so, the cost system actually encourages them to drag their heels to the steps of the court. That is money which we, as a society, are wasting.

On the number of cases with which the Personal Injuries Assessment Board will deal, we are adopting the figures contained in the implementation group's report which precedes the establishment of the interim board. We hope that in time the volume of cases will reduce. It should be possible with the publication of the book of quantum to satisfy people that they are not being screwed, be they claimants or defendants because this is what they will be faced with if they go to court. If we are really successful, we shall do ourselves out of a job.

How many solicitors will be made redundant?

Ms Dowling

We have no interest in making anyone redundant. Many people in this country are being made redundant because we have a 42% litigation overhead. There are faults on all sides and the public is sick and tired of lawyers pointing their fingers at insurers and insurers pointing their fingers at doctors ensuring we go round and round in circles. We must tackle the whole issue.

Recommendation No. 39 of Ms. Dowlings report refers to the Personal Injuries Assessment Board proposals for employers' liability claims. Was there a previous proposal to deal with employers' liability claims? If there was, it never came to the surface.

Ms Dowling

Yes, this is the IBEC-ICTU voluntary code on workplace safety, another aspect to the self-insured sectors very successful management of workplace accidents. There was a missing box at the bottom which was the alternative to the courts - it contained the word "tribunal". The Deputy will understand why we wished to drop that word.

I compliment Ms Dowling on the report. Am I correct in saying that she is to be the chairperson of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board?

Ms Dowling

The interim membership of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board was appointed on 27 November 2002. I have been asked to chair the board for one year.

I am sure Ms Dowling's appointment will add huge credibility to the board. Do you think, with an acceptable book of quantums, that most claims will be settled by the Personal Injuries Assessment Board and that the courts may be used only for appeals?

Ms Dowling

No. There is no appeal option from the Personal Injuries Assessment Board. If the person does not accept the award he or she can, on receipt of a release certificate, commence litigation if he-she wishes to pursue the matter further. There is no appeal mechanism. It is hoped the courts will deal with what they are intended for - matters of law. It is hard to understand why some of the lawyers are getting so upset. There are in all court cases a plaintiff and a defendant and defendants also use lawyers and barristers. It seems the legal profession rarely represents the views of half its clients. At least half its clients will be happy in the future - they will now be able to afford to defend themselves in court. In fact, there may be better earnings for one set of lawyers in the sense that more cases that should be fought will be fought in the courts. The courts will be doing what the courts do best - making determinations on legal issues.

I would like to be associated with the words of welcome to Ms Dowling. Deputy Hogan referred to the need to expedite the implications of many of the recommendations. If legislation is passed when we return from recess on, say, 1 November, is the PIAB in a position to commence operations? Insurance increases in the hotel industry are of the order of 351%. The Bar Council or Law Society said its insurance costs had risen by 400%. Is there any justification for these increases? Deputy Howlin pursued the book of quantum issue and was told it is being prepared on the basis of experiences in Irish courts to date. As Irish court awards are excessively high for minor injuries compared with the UK, will you institutionalise high awards?

Ms Dowling

The question of reducing the level of compensation is a matter for Government policy and is beyond the remit of the PIAB. The PIAB's remit is to award the current level of compensation. The report contains examples from lawyers such as the one relating to an accident which occurred in 1995 and was only set down in 2000. If I was involved in an accident I would be sicker having had to wait five years for it to be dealt with. The fact that the PIAB will deal quickly with cases will enable people to rehabilitate and get on with their lives. To an extent, it will mean people will be less sick and therefore less in need of compensation. As far as the rate for a particular injury in concerned, the book of quantum will relate to the current level of compensation. If this committee is of the view that the damages for minor injuries should be looked at in a European context, that is a matter for the committee. We should be fair and equitable in the way we deal with this and we should not come up with any new recommendations that could derail the process.

Deputy Dempsey said either the Bar Council or the Law Society had said its insurance costs had risen by 400%. I am not sure who gave out those figures but I can give good reasons for both. Lawyers have been so successful in promoting the compensation culture in this country that they are now being widely sued by their own clients. This is the reason we have such a high level of barristers involved in cases. Solicitors will now very often not give a client an opinion on a case without involving a barrister because that gives the solicitor some protection. I am not worried about the increase in either of those sectors. On the 35% increase in insurance costs for the hotel industry——

It is a 351% increase. Have you found any justification for the escalating cost of insurance here?

Ms Dowling

I will deal with that matter now. This morning's newspapers contained some reference to the 351% increase in hotel insurance costs. A contributing factor was property damage insurance. I have no remit in that area. I have no idea about this matter except what we all know about floods, fires and the events in Galway yesterday.

Premiums are increasing.

Ms Dowling

Following the floods in Galway yesterday, premiums for flood damage will probably increase. Justification for such increases is a matter for IFSRA. In the self-insured sector, where there is no issue in relation to premiums, we have extraordinary costs increases in relation to claims, claims frequency, compensation levels and litigation costs. The real fear is that when things start to improve, as they have done, that is when there is the greatest scope for predatory pricing because costs are coming down and with all the publicity from this committee and elsewhere about premium increases of more than 300% there is the danger of self-fulfilling prophecies. A person who receives a premium increase of 150% will heave a sigh of relief and that may be three times what it ought to be. Let us be cautious about such matters.

The MIAB is producing quarterly surveys on motor quotations. We are meeting on 6 August to review the implementations of the recommendations and also to look at the latest premium survey. The MIAB report will be tracking that in our next report. The MIAB has moved away from private motor insurance although there are some further data analysis to be undertaken. We have moved into examining commercial motor insurance in which there are completely different issues for fleets, trucks, etc.

I speak for all the members when I say we are grateful to you, Ms Dowling. Thank you for attending the committee today and for a most valuable meeting. You have given us food for thought. I look forward to our working together many more times during the next three or four years.

The interim report of the committee is due for publication in the first week of August. I suggest we have another meeting before the committee's final report.

I have a brief third question. If the legislation was passed when the House returns after the summer recess, could the PIAB start operating?

Ms Dowling

The strategic plan for the PIAB is for it to be up and running at the beginning of January 2004.

The joint committee adjourned at 7.30 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 23 July 2003.
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