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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE AND SMALL BUSINESS debate -
Wednesday, 21 Apr 2004

Reform of the Irish Insurance Market: Presentations.

I welcome members to the continuation of our investigation into the insurance industry and thank them for being here. I welcome Mr. Liam Kelleher from the Construction Industry Federation, and Mr. George Hennessy and Mr. Kevin Gilna, also of the Construction Industry Federation, who are assisting Mr. Kelleher. Mr. Jim O'Mahony and Mr. John Bisset from Coyle Hamilton are welcome, as are Mr. Mike Murphy, Ms Tanya Murphy and Mr. Gary Owens from the Mike Murphy Insurance Group. I also welcome Mr. David Dillane from Dolmen Insurance Brokers Limited. We look forward to you assisting us in our insurance inquiry for our second interim report, which we hope to publish before 1 June. There is considerable interest in the inquiry and I thank everybody in the industry and in the media who are assisting us. The more we can highlight the difficulties being experienced, the more progress we can make.

Before calling on the delegations to make their submissions, I remind the representatives that while the comments of members are protected by parliamentary privilege, those of the representatives are not. I ask everybody, including people in the public gallery, to ensure their mobile phones are switched off. Each person has ten minutes to make his or her presentation. There is a time constraint as the Dáil is sitting at 10.30 a.m. Hopefully, we will conclude by 11.15 a.m. I call on Mr. O'Mahony to begin.

Mr. Jim O’Mahony

Coyle Hamilton, John Bisset and I thank the committee for the invitation to come before it to discuss our company, its services, our business and the business of insurance brokers in general. In its invitation the committee asked us to deal with a number of questions. We have tried to answer those questions as best we can. I hope the committee will find it helpful that we have put the answers to the questions in the captions on each slide.

We believe Coyle Hamilton is Ireland's leading insurance broker and employee benefits and risk management consultant. We employ 550 people, of whom a large number are professional graduates, such as actuaries and business and marketing graduates, and insurance professionals. We believe we are the number one broker in Ireland. That is a unique position because in most other territories the number one broker is one of our multinational competitors, both of which operate in this country.

I have included a slide dealing with business centres. I included it to give the committee an outline of the scope of our operations. Our main activities are insurance broking and risk management for entities ranging from private individuals to large corporations, including some public service companies. Our broker services operation distributes a range of products through approximately 400 other brokers throughout the country. Nifast is our risk management company. It develops risk management processes and carries out health and safety training in support of the activities in trying to reduce and contain premia for our clients.

There are four main elements to what we do. The first mentioned in the slide is market matching. The simplest example of this is motor insurance. When a customer needs motor insurance, we will go out into the marketplace and procure that insurance. Larger companies require more complex business solutions and often they require us to advise on matters such as evaluating other means of funding for insurance losses, for example, self insurance. They also request us to provide services to minimise losses and to handle them when they occur. Other elements of our services are illustrated in the other slides.

Our overall objective in terms of our service is to give the client the best advice not only by getting the best premium, but also in providing the appropriate type and level of cover. I have given the committee an outline of the range of our clients' activities in the slide dealing with clients. For obvious reasons, I cannot give the committee lists of names of clients but many are household Irish names. They range from the kitchen shop or the publican to large organisations. Some of them are key employers, some have significant assets and many of them are major contributors to the economic well-being of this country. All are demanding in their requests to us for the provision of services.

To ensure the services we provide are the best available we are members of a global network of independent brokers called Assurex. This is to ensure that we can bring to the attention of our clients the developments in overseas insurance markets in terms of buying insurance and structuring insurance programmes. It also ensures our clients are aware of what is happening in international markets. I will return to this a little later.

The committee asked a question about placing business with Irish insurance companies. We believe we are the largest supplier of business to the domestic market. We place approximately €500 million in premia into insurance companies. In common with all major brokers, we have rules relating to who we can place our business with on behalf of our clients. Many clients rely on us for advice in the context of which insurance companies are appropriate to deal with in given sets of circumstances.

The committee asked about our services abroad and what we do for our clients with insurers overseas. We have two operations in this regard. Coyle Hamilton Insurance Brokers Limited is a UK based broking operation which is similar to our Irish operation. We employ 55 people in London to provide our Irish clients with access to Lloyds, the UK and European insurance markets. The second operation is Coyle Hamilton International Limited. It was one of the first established companies in the IFSC. It is unique for an Irish insurance broker and its job is to source reinsurance for insurance companies. It provides access for our clients to reinsurance markets both in Europe and in the UK.

The committee asked if we were involved in advising companies on self insurance. For large companies and for homogenous groups of industry sectors our advice generally is that insurance per se is an expensive way of dealing with the risks which they face. Our objective in those situations is to devise for the client the most suitable and cost effective way of funding the risks to which they are exposed. Part of that funding relates to the establishment of self insurance programmes. Generally, when a client takes that route, they require considerable assistance in setting up structures to protect themselves, to deal with the risks they are facing and to fund for losses that occur for them rather than for the insurance company.

The committee asked if we acted for syndicates or groups. We engage in that activity in a number of ways. We have been the most innovative broker in Ireland in devising facilities for market niches. We believe they provide significant advantages for our clients both in terms of premium and of the scope of the cover provided by the policy. We have put facilities together for market niches such as the leisure industry, construction and small tradesmen. The committee asked about group facilities, where a group of clients in one industry purchases insurance on the basis that they share in the common good or bad of the group. We have done that and the example I can offer relates to the construction industry.

The next four slides deal with the extent of our services. I do not propose to elaborate on them but they indicate, I hope, that we do more than just buy off-the-shelf insurance products. The committee asked us our view on the outlook for premia. The large premium increases which occurred in Ireland over the past couple of years are not a uniquely Irish phenomenon. The blue book for 2002 suggested that premia for Irish businesses in the preceding three years rose by approximately 79%. That includes increases in exposure and rate increases. In the same period the GDP in the economy rose by 45%. There was an element of increase in business in the insurance premium increase as well as an increase in rates.

That was not the case anywhere else in Europe. It is an Irish success story.

Mr. O’Mahony

Yes. The comparisons we draw and the studies we have looked at suggest that in two of those three years in Northern Ireland the premium increases were in the order of 88%.

In the USA, premium increases in the period were of the order of 60%. After a series of difficult years for business, in terms of these levels of premium increases, the outlook is encouraging. Over the past six months, we have experienced premium reductions ranging from approximately 15% to 50%. This has been brought about by a change in the culture of responsibility and in the level of tolerance of fraud. There is now an intolerance of fraud, particularly in regard to insurance matters. The other significant contributors to these premium reductions have been an expectation on the part of insurers that the key initiatives in the MIAB, the PIAB, the penalty points and increased social awareness of the cost of this to industry, in particular to Irish industry, will bring about some of these premium reductions.

The premium reductions will continue but we are concerned regarding the longevity. Insurance companies have introduced premium reductions in the expectation that all the political initiatives that have been undertaken in the past two years will bear fruit and that there will be a long-term sustained reduction in the cost of risk.

There is much weakness in international insurance markets and some of the major international insurers still have ongoing issues relating to the robustness of their balance sheets. There is an element in the premium pricing of insurance companies that, regardless of what we do, Ireland is a relatively small part of the international economy and that insurers are mostly major international companies and will continue to suffer the good and bad of their international counterparts.

As to the reasons for premium increases, I have already indicated that we do not believe this is an Irish phenomenon, although there are specific Irish issues that brought it about. On page 10, we have tried to give members a list of the contributing factors. There was a compendium of issues that brought about the premium increases such as low interest rates; returns on investment; poor equity market returns; the events of 11 September 2001, which at the time was promoted as being the prime reason, but we saw it as just one; a number of large international insurance company losses, for example, in the aviation market, a number of aviation losses wiped out the entire world wide aviation premium in a particular year; the collapse of a number of insurers; and the explosion of asbestos claims. Matters like asbestos claims are individual issues and do not often receive much media attention but they are extremely serious and are of particular concern to a number of insurance companies. We have seen some evidence of that in the newspapers recently.

Members asked what issues could be addressed to lower insurance costs. We have listed those on page 11. There is a need for greater awareness of road safety. A huge amount of work has been done in that regard. There is an issue of enforcement, and of visible enforcement. Even last night on television there was a piece on the increase in the number of road deaths. That illustrates the point that many of the benefits could be short lived unless considerable measures are taken to reinforce them and make them sustainable. On fire safety, fire protection and public and industrial awareness of it and enforcement are issues. On health and safety, there has been a significant change in culture in Irish business relating to its view or perception of health and safety but much more work needs to be done in that area. We would also like to see codes published to help in the enforcement of proper health and safety.

The MIAB and all its recommendations should be implemented. We have actively supported them from day one. On the follow on regulatory or legislative issues, such as the civil liability Bill, etc, we strongly support them and hope they will be implemented. On regulation of our own industry, I will come back to that later. We think it should be practical and principle based. In terms of regulation in general with regard to the insurance industry, legislators should look to remove barriers to new entrants.

Is Mr. O'Mahony talking about the broker industry?

Mr. O’Mahony

Regarding barriers to new entrants, we are talking about insurers.

Coyle Hamilton is a broker and not an insurance company.

Mr. O’Mahony

Yes. On the structure of fees, I hope the committee will understand that much of the information here is commercially sensitive, particularly as my competitors will be listening to what I say. We charge both commission and fees for our services. We have in the past number of months provided detailed responses to IFSRA and to the Competition Authority in regard to our fee income and how it is composed. Our company's turnover is in the order of €50 million.

Will the information you gave to IFSRA and the Competition Authority be made available to our inquiry or to our consultants on a confidential basis? Is it in the public domain already?

Mr. O’Mahony

It is certainly with IFSRA and the Competition Authority.

We were asked about our perception of IFSRA and of regulation in general. IFSRA's authorisation and regulation of insurance brokers has had a positive effect. We strongly support regulation of its type. Regulations should be principle rather than rule based. We have a strong bias in favour of principle based regulation. There is some evidence that the manner in which brokers are regulated may increase costs. We have had to employ considerable additional resources to deal with the issue of compliance. We are anxious that regulation would be focused on buyer-purchaser protection to ensure the purchaser gets the fairest and best advice and value.

We were asked whether we were influenced by an insurer paying commission. We are not influenced, in who we place business with, by whether the insurer pays commission. We believe our first obligation is to our customers and it is to provide best advice to our clients. We are also obliged by IFSRA and by regulation to provide best advice to our clients and we are happy that we do so. On the issue of best advice, as part of a broader survey, we looked at our own private motor insurance book in the past number of months and in 100% of the cases involved, all of our clients were given the cheapest premium available to us.

The Chairman asked about capacity issues and what we understood by the issue of capacity. Capacity has two meanings to us. One is the capacity of the insurance company to write a level of business - in other words, how many premiums can an insurer write? That is restricted by the amount of capital the insurer has available to it and by its solvency margin requirements from the regulator. The other issue of capacity is the extent to which insurers can, or are willing to, provide cover for any specific risk or business sector. Both of those issues have caused concern over the past number of years and have caused much difficulty for us.

We were asked about the image of the Irish insurance industry overseas. It is fair to acknowledge that the legislative initiatives undertaken have had a positive impact on improving the image. It would have been a problem a number of years ago but it has changed significantly in the past two years. We strongly support the initiatives that have been taken. We have also taken every opportunity, where we have been having discussions with overseas insurers, to expand on the progress that has been made and the manner in which the various issues with which they would be concerned have been addressed. I have listed some of the things we believe are positive. We also believe industry in general is perceived by the overseas insurer to have a much more positive view of health and safety and compliance in that area.

We were asked for our view on the Competition Authority report. We welcome the recognition by the Competition Authority of the importance of the role of brokers. The Competition Authority stated that brokers reduce search and switching costs for insurance buyers and that they help in bringing the lower price to the attention of the buyer.

In considering the Competition Authority report, our perception is that there are three key issues. We think brokers' remuneration was raised on the basis of whether the ad valorem system of remuneration was in direct conflict with the responsibility of the broker to provide best advice. Questions were also raised about whether greater transparency was required and whether there could be more competition between brokers. I want to take the committee through each of these issues in turn.

First, we do not believe that broker remuneration conflicts with our obligations on best advice. As I stated earlier, we conducted a survey of our own private motor clients and in 100% of the cases we took from a specific number of months, the client was always advised of the lowest premium available from our motor quotation system. The failure to provide best advice to the customer would effectively result in us losing business. We have always operated on the basis that we hope to retain our customers for the long term and that best advice is what they must receive in order for them to stay with us.

We were asked what we thought about the appropriate level of transparency. I am not quite sure what is meant by "appropriate level of transparency". If the committee is asking whether the customer knows how much he or she is paying for the product, then we believe that under the system the customer has that information. If it is asking whether the customer needs a breakdown of each component part of that product, we do not believe that is helpful. There are studies which suggest that providing a detailed component breakdown of the product actually works against the customer.

As a general comment on the issue the FSA, which consulted widely in the UK on the matter, has decided not to introduce a disclosure of commissions for commercial clients. The insurance mediation directive does not require such disclosure. There have also been studies, one of which we have illustrated here, which show that the disclosure of component parts of commission, particularly where brokers are involved, almost encourages the client not to buy the cheapest or best advice.

Does any country disclose this?

Mr. O’Mahony

No. All developed countries in America and Europe, including the UK, operate an ad valorem system, in other words, pay brokers by commission. I will return to that in a moment because another question was asked which impinges on that.

CAS Consultants commented in its report to the Competition Authority that commissions in Ireland were exceptionally low by international standards. My briefing note contains an example of the commissions paid in other, predominantly European, countries on the different types of insurance being investigated by the committee - motor, employers' liability and public liability. It illustrates that the levels of commission in those areas are significantly lower in Ireland than in other countries.

Does it show Ireland?

Mr. O’Mahony

No. I must apologise the slide includes detail on Ireland which is not visible here.

What was the percentage?

Mr. O’Mahony

For motor insurance, it is in the 5% to 7.5% range. For employers' liability, it is approximately 6%. For public liability, it is of the order of 10%.

The committee asked whether there can be greater competition between brokers. My view is that we in Coyle Hamilton operate in the most competitive broker market in the world. Coyle Hamilton is in a unique position in this market. On a worldwide basis, two of our major multinational competitors process 54% of the worldwide brokerage in insurance markets. Both of those companies are based in this country. At the same time we are competing with 500 authorised advisers in almost every high street throughout the country and 1,500 multi-agency intermediaries. We have built our business on integrity, on our ability to compete with both the local broker and our multinational competitors. The numbers of authorised advisers and multi-agency intermediaries competing against us in those markets have increased over the past ten years. All elements of this market are very competitive.

The most important issue for the Irish insurance market is the provision of choice. This is reflected in the way we operate our business in providing choice of insurer. They have a choice of intermediary and they should have a choice of distribution channel. Brokers are fundamental to ensuring that these choices exist.

Thank you, Mr. O'Mahony. Coyle Hamilton has excelled over the years and has been held in high esteem by many people throughout the country. I congratulate you on that success.

Mr. Michael Murphy will now make a submission on behalf of his company. I hope Mr. Murphy does not follow the example of the previous speaker, whose contribution ran to almost 20 minutes. I would appreciate brevity if at all possible because we have a large number of questions to ask.

Mr. Mike Murphy

My contribution will not be as long as Mr. O'Mahony's. I began my insurance career 40 years ago with the Irish Life Assurance Company. I worked in Dublin, Belfast and elsewhere in the UK before returning to Ireland to set up Mike Murphy Insurance in 1974. I began with a rented office on a third floor on Dawson Street armed with a portable Olivetti typewriter, a desk, a chair, a telephone and a Thom's Directory. I had four or five part-time staff and soon had enough business to take in a partner and my wife, Jackie, to do the secretarial work. Thankfully, business has progressed. The company now has 50 staff in the centre of Dublin and its premium income is €25 million. My company is totally Irish owned and will remain so.

The services we provide are as follows. On the personal assurance side, we have a retail division. We place our business in the home market for motor and household insurance across the board with the insurers operating here. This business is sold on the telephone and in recent years on the web, and then followed up by our brokering teams. We pioneered shopping around for our customers in the 1980s. This, done manually at first and now electronically, has paid dividends because price is a determining factor in deciding who gets the business.

Our commercial business is a mixed bag, from aviation and marine to builders, manufacturing, motor fleet and the service industry. We deal with a large volume of business right across the country and almost every occupation. We place this business with insurers in Ireland, the UK and internationally at the most competitive price, depending on the nature and size of the risk.

There has been little capacity in the Irish market for the heavier type of liability risk such as aviation, marine hull and cargo business, professional indemnity, contract frustration, political and some employers' and public liability insurance. This business is placed in international markets - Lloyds of London, France, Germany, Holland and America.

Our business is placed on the basis of a mixture of both commission and fees. Our commission levels in Ireland are significantly lower than the UK level and, therefore, the equitable up-turn of a 50:50 mix is about right.

A broker's job is to secure the best possible deal for his or her client. This means searching the markets for alternative quotations for the best cover at the most competitive prices. Personally I do not believe in the hard sales approach to business. I prefer to place the various options available in the marketplace before the client and let him or her choose. Invariably, it is the lowest price that is picked. We present all our customers with a terms of business and conditions letter.

The committee asked why insurance premiums increased. There has always been a lack of capital for the heavier type risks with Irish insurers, in particular, taking the easy option and allocating most of their capital to what they perceive are the most profitable sectors of the business, namely, the areas of least risk. However, on 11 September 2001 all markets were hit hard due to limited capital. Ten or 11 Lloyd syndicates disappeared. Insurers withdrew from the riskier markets, thereby leaving a smaller pool in which to place such business. While premiums increased for everyone, employers' liability and heavier risk business, in particular, got more than their fair share of the premium increases.

The subsequent fall in equity markets also had a dramatic impact on insurers. Insurers have been telling us for years that they were losing money on underwriting and taking their profits from their investment returns made on the money set aside to settle claims. This was fine in a time of high interest rates but that time has long since gone and insurers were heavily exposed when equity markets fell after 11 September 2001. This seriously reduced the amount of moneys available to pay claims. Consequently, insurers are now seeking to make their money on underwriting profits, resulting in higher premiums.

In 1939, there were approximately 90 insurers in the Irish market. This figure fell to approximately 30 during the next 50 years. In the past ten to 15 years, due to consolidation in the marketplace, amalgamations, etc., it has fallen further to approximately 15 resulting in reduced competition and increased premiums.

The introduction of the penalty points system reduced the frequency of claims and the threat of the PIAB and the advent of Quinn Direct to the commercial market have resulted in significant reductions. There has been an average of 15% to 50% reductions year on year.

Court settlements in Ireland are much too high, standing at two to three times the EU average, while legal costs are astronomical, with a senior or junior counsel in each High Court case pushing such a defence to 40% of the total claims payment. The PIAB must be made to work because it will bring realism to the market. If insurers can save on unnecessary defence costs, this must drive claims and premiums down.

The introduction and policing of the health and safety legislation has resulted in the abolition of cowboy operators from the workplace. There is now an awareness on the part of employers and employees of the fruits of a safe system of work. In addition, the safety programmes that are in place - which were previously non-existent - will create an atmosphere where there is no place for fraudsters in the system. The anti-fraud campaign undertaken by insurers and the Government agencies is paying dividends. In turn, this will result in fewer claims and reduced premiums.

I was asked about how one might reduce insurance costs. I have already covered the PIAB, the success of which is paramount to reducing insurance costs.

Ireland is the only country in the world where one can buy a licence and drive home provided one has a qualified licensed driver as a passenger. However, there is worse to come. If one fails one's test, one is then qualified to drive alone. The enforcement of the Road Safety Act must be tightened. I am not advocating the further restriction of speed limits by the Minister. The important point relates to the re-education of driving habits due to stricter control of what is in place, which will result in improved driving skills and awareness.

We must ensure, in the interests of consumers, that the benchmark set in the book of quantum is not set at current levels, which stand at two or three times the EU average. We must be careful to set the price tag on each injury at a realistic level, otherwise customers will always pay higher insurance premiums. If all of this is achieved, we will create a level playing field and insurers will commit more capital to the market, hence increasing competition and reducing insurance costs.

I was asked about the overseas perception of us. There is a perception of the Irish market abroad to the effect that we have a compensation culture similar to that of America and that we have a high number of lawyers, which helps to support that view. This makes it difficult for insurers to price business accurately. The public perception in Ireland is that it is almost a crime if an insurance company declares a profit. Any investor or shareholder will not invest capital in a country or business if he or she is not allowed to achieve an adequate return on his or her investment. The abolition of the jury system 20 to 25 years ago was heralded as a new way forward and insurers clapped their hands because they believed it was a new horizon. However, their joy was short-lived. As awards by judges have been equally as inconsistent as those given by juries, let us ensure that the same does not happen in the case of the PIAB.

Ireland is a small country in insurance terms, with a population of only 4 million. It is one tenth the size of most European countries, with a high cost of living. We will always, therefore, have difficulty attracting new capital unless it makes sense for potential investors. We need to address a number of these issues if we are serious about attracting new investors into the market.

I welcome the IFSRA requirements because they are designed to protect consumers, who are our clients, and we have been doing so for years. There is nothing new in this. However, brokers are the catalysts for comparing prices and covers in the insurance market. The IFSRA could help consumers further by compelling direct insurers to make their rates available to brokers, thereby creating a level playing field for all. This should help reduce prices.

The point regarding the solvency of insurers is moot. I do not believe this is an issue for brokers, it is more relevant to IFSRA. A broker's job is to place business with the best insurer at the best possible price for the insurer. The solvency of insurers is really not a matter for us.

The Competition Authority's report is very good and gives an excellent insight into the industry. However, the conclusions were imbalanced and in my opinion focused unfairly on the broker market. From my 40 years of experience in dealing with all types of insurance, from an eel to an anchor, I am aware that price is the key issue. Regardless of how it is presented to the customer, he will inevitably go for the bottom line and hold the broker responsible for something he failed to see.

The secret to the success of any broker is presentation and service. If one does not present oneself and one's price in a manner acceptable to the customer, one will not succeed in reaching the next level, namely, service. The client must see what is available in the marketplace, he must be given a choice and one must ideally create the atmosphere in which he can buy. After that, the administration and after-sales service is easy.

I thank Mr. Murphy for his forthright submission. I invite Mr. David Dillane to summarise the submission already presented to the committee. I thank him for his attendance.

Mr. David Dillane

It is a pleasure to be here. Dolmen Insurance Brokers would be considered new kids on the block. We have only been in operation for five and a half years. Our staff numbers have risen from two to 35 and we handle a premium income of approximately €14 million. We believe that our staff numbers will increase to 60 in the near future. We are a wholly Irish-owned company and we will stay that way. I will try to answer the questions in the order in which they were asked.

Of what do our services comprise? We offer services to our clients with both Irish-based insurance companies and those based outside Ireland. We also offer group facilities on the same basis. We do not offer services at present to those wishing to self-insure on a fee basis but that is not to say that we will not do so in the future.

I was asked whether the increases seen in recent years are likely to continue or if there has been a fundamental change in the market. Businesses which are well run and have a good claims history are currently offering reductions in prices which, I am sure, will be welcomed. There appears to be a fundamental change on foot of the Government initiatives. However, in order that this reduction does not merely form part of a cycle, the recommendations must be fully implemented and delivered upon. Reference was made to the penalty points system in that regard. Apart from the number of road deaths, when one is driving one can see that people are ignoring speed limits. That is in contrast to the first day on which the system was introduced when everyone was scared to exceed the speed limit.

We were asked our opinion regarding the reasons Ireland suffered these increases. There are a number of issues involved. However, the underlying issue in Ireland was the historic compensation, or "compo", culture which led to an unprofitable market. We had the highest number of claims and the highest award levels. When there was a reduction in global capacity, global and pan-European insurers retained capacity for their more profitable markets and Ireland suffered badly. This occurred when demand in Ireland was growing due to economic factors and population growth. It was a supply and demand issue and, when demand outstrips supply, prices rise. To bring about a significant reduction in costs in Ireland we must produce an underlying profitable insurance market. That is the only way of attracting determined competition and increasing the supply with resultant benefits to customers. While there are many measures in the pipeline, they need to be fully implemented if there is to be a real shift in the cycle.

We charge a mixture of commission and fees. Some 65% of our income comes from commissions.

Is the remaining 45% growing or diminishing?

Mr. Dillane

It is fairly static. The issue of arrangements through IFSRA was also raised. We accept the IFSRA arrangements and know they are necessary to regulate the market. We are not sure they are totally focused on customers' concerns and wonder if they are slightly off the mark. They have increased our costs substantially and, whenever costs are increased they have to be met somewhere along the line. We would welcome the establishment of a group to identify and address clients' requirements and concerns. We consider that the current arrangements could bar new insurance brokers from the market and may also prohibit existing brokers from aggressively attacking new business because of the costs they might incur.

The answer to whether we are influenced by commission levels paid by insurers is no. As I have already stated, what is best for the client is best for us. It is only then that we will maintain our clients in the long term and secure jobs in our offices. We do not influence clients, we offer them best advice. An insurer who does not pay commission pays a fee for our services. The question of capacity was also raised.

Are you saying you charge a client who requests you to seek a quote from a company selling a direct product that is being marketed and advertised a fee rather than a percentage?

Mr. Dillane

Yes. They obtain the same premium and we then charge a fee.

They would receive the same professional service as other customers but because they request a quote from a direct company, such as those advertised on television and radio, they are charged a fee for the service.

Mr. Dillane

Yes. It is important to note that the client is no longer exposed directly to the underwriter but has a professional acting on his or her behalf.

I appreciate that.

Mr. Dillane

Capacity refers to the availability of insurers and products. As capital is required for underwriters to underwrite, when this capital left for more profitable markets, it caused a worldwide shortage and Ireland, as stated earlier, suffered badly because of its underlying loss-making market.

Our image abroad is only now beginning to change. I do not believe that to say it was "appalling" is too strong. I spent two and a half months early last year knocking on doors in London trying to encourage people into different segments of the market, providing them with all kinds of statistics but the old concerns regarding moral hazards and compensation culture remained. If we are to break that image, we will have to increase competition. If an insurer closes its branch in Birmingham, which is bigger than the Irish market, it causes a ripple. However, the Irish market is so small they do not get the economy of scale and they fear the compensation culture.

When the Competition Authority's interim report was published we were put in the firing line, so much so that parts of the media labelled us parasites. I felt that was unfair and does not reflect our value to customers. We operate on a best advice basis for clients regardless of commission levels. Current regulations provide full transparency for clients in terms of where we have shopped on their behalf and the results of our searches. Mention was made of additional incentives offered to us by insurers and whether that taints our best advice. My answer in that regard is no. Additional incentives offered by insurers are tied into many factors such as growth in accounts, credit control and the maintenance of a low loss ratio. This encourages us to seek out customers who fit the profile of that insurer in terms of what it is looking for. We then put together a package for them. We are, in effect, trying to take these clients from other brokers and insurers, something which I believe complements the wishes of the Competition Authority. This is real competition.

I am not too sure how relevant it is for the customer to know that one broker may achieve a higher level of payment from a particular insurer as a result of achieving higher results. The report poses the question of what would be the impact if regulations were introduced to prohibit payments from insurers. We have noticed, over the past number of years, that roles historically handled by insurance companies are now handled within our office. They are delegated and we are responsible for them. This will bring the service in line with European trends and will bring the insurance service as close as possible to the customer. If we are no longer paid commissions, we will not handle that work. The work does not go away, it goes back to the insurers and will have to be paid for. It does not disappear.

As the roles migrate to brokers so too do jobs. We now have more experts employed than heretofore. Previously, experts employed by a particular insurer would only provide their opinion to a potential customer of that insurer's products. Now, they are available to customers on best advice.

There are two important areas on which the report impacts. I was unable to comprehend the concerns raised in the report in terms of buyer switching costs. Seldom will a customer have the opportunity to view the results of a professional's work before incurring any costs. We investigate their requirements, trawl the insurance market and draw up a presentation. It is only when that presentation is acceptable to the client that we get paid. I do not agree with the concerns expressed in that regard.

The report also raised the issue of clients not being given enough time to shop around, in particular in terms of liability insurance. We are speaking in this regard of commercial operations. A commercial operation does not have to wait for a renewal notice to arrive before it begins shopping around, it does so as early as it wishes. They are the ones with the knowledge of their requirements for the following year.

The Competition Authority report also stressed that there was little evidence that competition had reduced commissions. As suggested earlier, the levels of commissions in Ireland are very low compared to other markets. I would argue that for a new entrant into the market to have a nationwide distribution channel which penetrates every marketplace in Ireland and to have such low rate commissions is a real benefit and bonus. If we can produce an underlying profitable market they will find such a channel of distribution open. If we can produce an underlying profitable market they will find that a channel is available for distribution.

Concerns were expressed regarding the blocking of liability, in particular liability quotations. Some underwriters and insurers have rules about whom they will quote for based upon certain criteria, such as who first presented the risk or with whom they have the best opportunity of acquiring the risk. We all know the rules that apply - it is up to us to get in early and get the presentation across to the insurers or convince the insurers that if they work with us they have the best opportunity of acquiring this business. I do not see that clients suffer from this. There is no barrier there. On occasions on which we do not get in on time we may not be able to obtain a quotation and therefore we do not get the risk. That is where we lose out. We know the rules and we must work within them.

Concerns were also expressed that where a competing broker discusses business held with an existing insurer, the first thing he does is to discuss this with the incumbent broker. As a competing broker, we do out utmost to keep under the radar. We do not want the present broker or insurer to know we are there. This maximises our chances of success. The circumstances discussed are not very common.

There were also concerns about clients not being able to switch brokers if they have debts with their incumbent brokers. This is only the case where a customer chooses to change brokers but remain with the same insurer. At that stage the relationship between the incumbent broker and the client has deteriorated and it is only fair that if there is any amount correctly due to the incumbent broker it should be paid. Otherwise clients are given a licence to leave debts behind them. Normally in competition, where we place clients with a new insurer no credits are carried out between brokers and there are no communications. I do not see that as being of much concern.

The reason we are here today is that there has been an outcry about insurance costs. It could be said that over the last number of years we have failed, as an industry, to provide customers with continuity of supply, predictability and reasonable costs. This has put individuals and entrepreneurs in a very difficult position and I am concerned about the long-term effects on the economy. This is all down to the compensation culture. We know this was initially spawned by insurers who did not aggressively fight claims back when there were juries, but it was aided by the legal profession which, on a no win no fee basis, made it possible for plaintiffs to take a free shot for compensation.

The number of claims with high legal fees, accounting for approximately 50% of claim costs, led to a loss-making market which was unattractive to potential new entrants. It is all about supply. Once we have addressed the underlying problems as a result of the measures we are discussing, this will allow for new entrants to come into the market. It appears we are going in the right direction and I welcome that.

Nowhere in the report of the Competition Authority was there full recognition of the services we provide to clients. It is not simply a case of collecting commissions without doing any work. We assist them in the realisation of their exposures and advise on the products available to protect them. Sometimes they do not even know where they have an exposure. We provide risk management services. We assist in such matters as physical and electronic security, health and safety regulations, cash handling procedures, driver advancement courses, personal training and disaster recovery plans. All of this is paid for by commissions for a fee.

Most importantly, when a client has a claim, his expectation that the claim will be met will be influenced by us, in a complex manner, in his favour. That is the benefit of brokers for customers. Only when customers have claims will they fully appreciate the full range of services. A vibrant broker community is essential for the good of the customer into the future.

That was another good presentation. I now invite Mr. Liam Kelleher to make a submission on behalf of the Construction Industry Federation. This is the other side of the story.

Mr. Liam Kelleher

I thank the Chairman and the committee for the invitation. On the previous occasion when the CIF was invited to come before the committee my colleague, Mr. George Hennessy, a director of the operation, addressed the committee. As Mr. Hennessy is more of a specialist in insurance than I am, I ask him to make the presentation. I will be happy to respond to questions subsequently.

Mr. George Hennessy

When I last addressed the committee in July 2003, I described the insurance market as a very difficult one for Irish construction firms. The number of insurers quoting for construction business had reduced dramatically over the previous two years and many firms in the sector were reporting that their insurance costs had more than doubled. My understanding of the committee's request to us was to give it a flavour of how things may have changed since then.

Since July 2003 there has been a significant turnaround in the availability and cost of employer's liability and public liability insurance in the construction sector. The reasons for this are a combination of the continuing reduction in the number of construction site accidents - up to 30% over a two and a half year period; a reduction in the cost of settling claims - 20% lower since the introduction of the euro; an increased underwriting capacity, largely because of the sharp rise in premium levels which has made it significantly more profitable for insurance companies to pursue business in the Irish market; the anticipated impact of the PIAB on the cost of settling claims, which is already having an impact even though we do not yet have a book of quantum; and the anticipated impact of the Civil Liability and Courts Bill on rooting out exaggerated and fraudulent claims.

Renewal premiums for unchanged risk - turnover and payroll - have shown a reduced trend since July 2003. Firms are generally experiencing a 25% drop in renewal premiums. Furthermore, firms that had great difficulty obtaining a single quote in 2002-03 now seem to be able to get three to four quotes when renewing a year later. While this is very welcome news, rates remain significantly higher than two years ago. That is an essential point.

We have provided six typical examples to show the movement in insurance costs since 2001. These represent companies renewing their insurance in the last 12 months. The first three firms show a significant reduction in their renewal premiums in 2003 compared to 2002, although premium levels remain significantly higher than two years previously.

Is it 100%?

Mr. Hennessy

Yes. Progress has been achieved but premiums are still high. Company No. 4 renewed in October last and achieved a significantly lower renewal figure than in the previous two years by changing insurer. For companies Nos. 5 and 6 there is no reduction in premiums, but this is because they have yet to renew. Their renewal dates are in May. We expect there will be a reduction then.

We see the current developments in the policy and regulatory framework for insurance as positive and potentially very beneficial if carried through and delivered on. To achieve this, however, it is essential that the PIAB quickly publishes a book of quantum which is benchmarked on an ongoing basis against European norms and adopted by the courts in making awards. The PIAB needs to move quickly once it is fully operational to cover public liability as well as employer liability claims. We believe this is the intention. The Civil Liability and Courts Bill, currently on Second Stage in the Oireachtas, must be enacted by the summer. This will require all-party support and the Construction Industry Federation urges the committee to pursue this.

The Competition Authority has issued an interim report of its review of competition in the insurance market that identifies the need for transparency in the commercial arrangement between brokers and insurance companies. In its first report, the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business highlighted the contribution insurance brokers can make to competition in the insurance market. The Construction Industry Federation believes that competition in the insurance broker market requires a number of specific actions.

There needs to be complete transparency in the arrangements between insurance companies and brokers, including bonuses and performance arrangements. The Construction Industry Federation agrees with the committee's recommendation on the abolition of brokers' sales quotas as they inhibit a broker in giving the best independent advice to clients. Brokers should have to communicate with commercial clients at least eight weeks prior to renewal when commencing the renewal process. This is separate from the IBEC-IIF code of practice that requires insurers to provide renewal quotations within four weeks of the renewal date. A longer period is required in the construction sector to facilitate the analysis that is required to allow brokers pursue the best quote for a client. All renewal quotations should be provided in writing. This is important in the construction sector where the quotation is in effect a request for a down payment based on a firms expected turnover and payroll.

As the final cost of the firm's annual insurance will be adjusted as necessary at the end of the year, clients need to know the final cost outcome and not just the initial quotation. Clients should be able to negotiate broker fees based on work done rather than fixed percentage rates. Where fixed rates continue to apply, they should be separately identified to clients for each type of insurance. All commercial policyholders should be entitled to receive full details of all the claims made under the policy during the preceding five years and the amount of any reserves being held. This is already the practice in some cases. The information should be supplied by the insurer to the client on reasonable request and be available to any broker acting on behalf of the client. The Construction Industry Federation thanks the committee for its work on insurance reform and asks that it continue to highlight the need for reform in this area.

Do brokers carry all the products of Irish companies that are offered to them? Quinn Direct alleged that its products have not been carried by all companies. The Construction Industry Federation, as well as the Irish Hotels Federation, requested an eight week period prior to renewal. What are the views of the insurance companies on this? The Construction Industry Federation has also called for fixed rates which seems to be a reasonable request.

Mr. O’Mahony

There are a series of rules relating to the insurance companies we deal with. Though I have met Mr. Quinn of Quinn Direct Insurance, Coyle Hamilton does not deal with its products. Under IFSRA regulations, we are obliged to bring this to the attention of our clients. We inform our clients that we do not deal with everyone in the market. IFSRA regulations require that the client is provided with a list of the agencies held. Those discussions with Quinn Direct are ongoing and I hope the outstanding issues that we have will be resolved.

Coyle Hamilton is the number one Irish insurance broker. Quinn Insurance seems to be heading for that spot. It offers the consumer an opportunity in the marketplace as Ryanair did in airline travel. The high costs of public and employer's liability and commercial motor insurance are unsustainable for small industries and family business. Many of them are going to the wall because of this. Brokers have informed the committee that they give a service and the customer decides whether he or she wants it. However, this service has to be paid up front and many small family businesses must go the bank to cover these costs. While I recognise the contribution that Coyle Hamilton has made in Ireland, I want a level playing field for the consumer, particularly when one considers the success of the economy. Though I must be impartial as committee Chairman, as a public representative from rural Ireland I will still argue that the insurance companies must re-examine these costs.

Regulation would help but if it is not done voluntarily, then a mechanism will have to be devised to ensure that it does happen.

What is Coyle Hamilton's viewpoint on the eight weeks period for renewal?

Mr. John Bisset

Coyle Hamilton starts the renewal process between six to eight weeks prior to the expiry date of a policy. Recently, it has been extended to 12 weeks because as businesses have become more complex, insurers need more information. Coyle Hamilton agrees with the Construction Industry Federation on this point.

Will Coyle Hamilton have a difficulty if the committee makes a strong recommendation to the Government?

Mr. Bisset

Absolutely not.

Mr. O'Mahony, what is Coyle Hamilton's position on the fixed rate proposal?

Mr. O’Mahony

I did not understand the question.

It is simple. Instead of having a commission rate, there would be a fixed rate. Evidence has been given to the committee of double brokerage where a small rural broker got a percentage while the broker in Dublin charged a much higher percentage. In that case, on a premium of €50,000, the customer ended up paying €61,000. This is unacceptable and has been passed on to the Competition Authority. Earlier, Mr. Dillane said that 65% of his fees are commission while 35% are fixed rate. On-line insurance operators would pay a fixed rate. Does Coyle Hamilton deal with Direct Line?

Mr. O’Mahony

No, as Direct Line is a competitor of Coyle Hamilton's. Our clients are at liberty to telephone it directly. Coyle Hamilton has gone back over all its private motor quotes to produce the lowest quotation available. We also bring it to the customer's attention that we do not deal with all of the insurance companies. I said during our presentation that we do not believe that it impinges on the broker's obligation to give best advice. Where the customer wishes to pay a fee, it is appropriate in many cases that we work for a fee. It is a different model, where, in effect, the customer has to pay a fee. As in other professions, a fee based model is a different business proposition and the customer will have to pay for all the component parts of the service, such as telephone calls and meetings etc. We do not have a difficulty as a firm negotiating a fee based relationship with the client, if he or she so wishes.

Is it negotiable?

Mr. O’Mahony

Absolutely.

Mr. Murphy, is it negotiable with Murphy Insurance?

Mr. Murphy

On the question of commission, my colleague, Mr. Gary Owens, will answer that. I will deal with the issue of Quinn Direct. I have been dealing with Quinn Direct for six years. I can understand Mr. O'Mahony's point and where his company, Coyle Hamilton, is coming from. In my submission I stated this was not an issue for brokers but for IFSRA to ensure that companies do not have a solvency problem. Anyone who knows Mr. Sean Quinn, knows he does not have a solvency problem. Insurance brokers have to be sure that the people they represent do not have a solvency problem. I think that is where the issue lies. As an insurance company, Quinn Direct is probably responsible for much of the reductions we have seen in the construction industry in the past 12 months.

We have to pass on the questions and statements made before this inquiry to find out the answers in order that we can bring in our second interim report. Does Mr. Dillane wish to comment?

Mr. Dillane

On the products we carry?

Does your company carry FBD and Quinn Direct?

Mr. Dillane

We do not carry FBD because the company will not make itself available to us. It is not that we have not tried to negotiate with FBD. We carry Quinn Direct as well as companies from the UK. We have to be careful at all times to avoid what happened with the independent insurance companies. Is the consumer best advised that in the event of the demise of the insurer, he or she has lost the premiums but the liability at law does not change? It will be a double whammy and he or she will have to replace the premiums. We give all clients a generic warning that it is a case of buyer beware. The client must understand the market he or she is in.

On the question of eight weeks prior notice, we have no difficulty with that, we would normally start much sooner, depending on the level of business. We have a great many small companies from the Construction Industry Federation and it is difficult to get small firms to attend to the paperwork. A bigger firm would have a permanent office, but sometimes with smaller companies it is more difficult to get them to attend to this matter.

Is Mr. Dillane referring mainly to subcontractors?

Mr. Dillane

I am talking about relatively small businesses, such as small building firms and all kinds of small industries. In Ireland there is a plethora of small industries, individuals who run their own company and who deal with the top priority on the day. Sometimes it is difficult but not a problem.

Is Mr. Dillane happy with the eight weeks provision?

Mr. Dillane

I have no difficulty with that, not that the final results should be given to them eight weeks in advance, but the process should be started.

Has Mr. Murphy any problem in his company with the eight weeks provision?

Mr. Murphy

None whatsoever.

Ms Tanya Murphy

In the motor industry, a provision was introduced that the client had to receive his or her renewal notice 15 working days in advance and that worked well for everybody. I think eight weeks is normal and practical for people to be able to make a choice.

Does Mr. Owens wish to comment?

Mr. Gary Owens

I have two points. Brokers do not have access to the direct market. The Chairman may believe they do, but some insurers will quote direct rates and also deal through brokers. Brokers do not have access to direct rates and in some instances they are not able to quote the direct terms. In principle, we agree with fees for work done in line with the submission by the Construction Industry Federation.

I thank all the members for being so patient. Should Mr. Kelleher and the Construction Industry representative wish to question the broker, will they indicate and they will be allowed to put their questions.

I thank the brokers and the construction industry for attending this meeting and giving us the benefit of their experience over many years. The role of the broker depends on the number of agencies he or she has. Recently the opinion has been formed by some, particularly by the Competition Authority, that brokers were the insurance companies. They forgot that the insurance companies made €500 million last year, but brokers will only be paid on the undertakings they are able to achieve with the companies. I speak as a former broker. I know Mr. Owens is familiar with this, although he is on the other side of the fence now.

The Deputy has enormous experience in that field.

I have enormous experience, no more than you, Mr. Chairman, in your field.

It is a matter of having a vested interest.

I am only protecting the Deputy. I have declared my interest in the hotel sector many times.

The Chairman does not have to do it every day. The role of the broker is very important and the Competition Authority should have started with the insurance companies rather than brokers, in order to indicate where there is a problem, which in our view there is. There are a number of distribution channels for brokers to find the best possible quotation. I am conscious of Mr. O'Malley, who is looking for the best possible quotation that is available to his company. There are best possible quotations available to consumers from other different channels. There are five different distribution channels. Why is it that insurance companies - I am thinking of one in particular - will not make the lowest premium available to a customer through a broker? What is being done about this by the profession? Accusations have been made by the Competition Authority of production quotas and target selling. That has been denied here today. Suppose Mr. O'Mahony gets a quotation for a client who says he has secured an even better one from One Direct. Does the company give him the benefit of the same premium, or will it drop the premium in order to ensure that the business is held?

The only way to ensure more competition in the market is to not only implement the insurance reform agenda but to also have the Single Market of the European Union involved in a common system in order that people will be able to shop around for the cheapest price. Brokers should not have to try to attract new entrants into the market, that should be a matter for the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Nevertheless, the only way one will get more competition is through a common system throughout the European Union where brokers can shop around. I believe that brokers should be required, in the interests of the consumer, to not only secure the best possible quotation but to advise on the issue of solvency and the claims compensation system that will be available in the event of a claim in jurisdictions outside the EU. Will the representatives of the industry comment on that?

Does some of the reduction in the premiums paid by members of the Construction Industry arise from negotiations with insurance companies to trade higher policy excesses in return for lower costs for their business?

Will Mr. Hennessy or Mr. Kelleher respond to that ?

Mr. Kelleher

I thank Deputy Hogan for his contribution. Higher excesses are a feature of the industry and that is a direction in which the industry is going. The market is changing, and across the spectrum of risk in the construction industry there is a realisation that at the smaller end of claim, companies should be better at managing safety on site, their businesses and the handling of claims. In between, there is a middle area of higher excesses where the company bears the risk. The insurance premium for what is insured is a lesser figure, but at the upper end of the risk spectrum.

The Deputy is correct in that there is a greater sharing of risk by the construction company itself. However, there have been real reductions since we were last before the committee. This is for a combination of reasons, such as additional supply in the market, a reduction in the number of accidents, a reduction in the cost of settling claims and the anticipation of the reforms which are in the pipeline. This anticipation has had a positive effect even before the reforms have come into play and, therefore, it is important they become a part of the reality.

We hope that the Civil Liability and Courts Bill will pass through both Houses before the summer recess, and that the setting up of the PIAB will be completed. We also hope to have the Minister of Sate, Deputy Fahey, attend the committee before publication of our second interim report in regard to new health and safety legislation. Would Mr. O'Mahony like to respond to Deputy Hogan?

Mr. O’Mahony

It is a source of some frustration to me that the premiums quoted by some insurers often vary significantly from the quotations provided directly to the customer. I cannot explain the difference because the cost of distribution through the broker channel is not the cause. I share the Deputy's frustration with that gap and do not see why direct quotations cannot be made available to brokers.

Why would they need brokers when they could get a cheaper quotation online?

Mr. O’Mahony

If this was just about the price of the product, there would be no problem. Some of my competitors referred to other important issues including the most important one, the final day of reckoning or, in other words, when one has a claim. We spend much time advising customers about the different attitudes of different insurers and the manner in which they settle claims. Another issue is that frequently there are differences in the policies - or small print, as it might be known - of different insurers. The client often does not understand this and looks to the broker for assistance. Clients frequently shop on the Internet, or directly, and then approach their local brokers to ask for an explanation as to which of the products is best.

There is significant difference between the level of switching of insurers between the broker distribution channel and the direct market. In other words, the insurance companies would see a greater degree of switching from one insurer to another if the business comes through the broker channel because the broker's obligation is to give the customer best advice.

As a final comment on the issue of best advice, we like to think our customers are loyal to us. Therefore, we should deal with them on the basis of integrity and trust. They expect us to provide honest and independent advice and that is what we try to do.

I will relay my experience of this issue. I often make the point that for those dealing with brokers over long periods of 20 to 30 years, the brokers become like family friends and customers develop loyalties towards them. I was one of those who shopped online for car insurance. For 20 years, I had been paying through the nose for car insurance, not only for myself but for other members of my family. When I inquired about adding another driver to my insurance, the quoted premium doubled. I then asked Quinn Direct for a quote. Not alone was the premium cheaper, but it was less than what I had been paying without the extra driver. When I approached my broker, I told him I did not want to move my business from him having known him so long, and I asked for an explanation. Following one phone call from the broker, the insurance premium came down by €700. Can Mr. O'Mahony explain this, especially as this case involves a different product but the same broker? Mr. O'Mahony said that insurers do not give his company the same prices and I want to know how this is so.

Mr. O’Mahony

It certainly calls into question the veracity of the first quotation provided by the insurer. I find it difficult to explain why an insurer would suddenly, in effect, halve the price.

Would Mr. Murphy like to respond to Deputies Lynch and Hogan?

Mr. Murphy

On Deputy Lynch's point, different insurers have different criteria in arriving at a price. It could be that the broker offered the Deputy a renewal price from the company and, because she was adding an extra driver, it may have changed the criteria. In short, the answer is that, as brokers, we do not have access to the direct motor insurance market, even in regard to Quinn Direct. This is a significant drawback and one which is covered in my report. These prices should be made available. If we are meant to act as brokers and give the cheapest prices and best advice to customers, we should have access to all the rates available in the country.

Mr. Murphy may have misunderstood what I said. My point is that my original broker was not quoting me from a direct insurance company but from the range which he always had available to him, yet he could somehow quote me a dramatically lower price because I told him I was thinking of moving my business.

Mr. Murphy

Did the broker give a reason for this?

Mr. Murphy

It is an unusual situation.

This committee has many examples of this. I know of at least four cases where the premium would have increased by approximately 15% but when the customer shopped around, there was a reduction, in one case of 100%. While I accept there are difficulties in every industry, there are many examples of cases such as that of Deputy Lynch. It is extraordinary that when the company which held the insurance policy was approached again, the price came down again.

I welcome the delegations. Much has been achieved in this area. The penalty points system has been introduced, the PIAB has been set up, the Civil Liability and Courts Bill is progressing and health and safety standards are improving. However, insurance costs have only reduced by approximately 15%, from an all-time high, and must come down much further.

I wish to ask the brokers present whether insurance companies put them under any constraints. In other words, must brokers have a certain volume of trade with the companies if they are not to be cut off? The brokers at today's meeting made a point of mentioning "best advice" for customers. However, if they are constrained by certain companies by having to have a certain volume of work with them, it would not be possible to give the best advice to customers.

We have heard repeatedly of cases such as that of Deputy Lynch, whereby brokers, who may be friends of their customers, cut down prices after the customer has shopped around. Surely, such a broker would not be providing best advice at the start. Would he not be ripping off the customer? It is unfortunate, but we must tell the public to shop around because that seems the only way around this problem. There is a threat to brokers at the moment and it could be the insurance companies that are putting the squeeze on. People will get smart and they will shop on-line because the cost of insurance must come down and the public will ensure that it will.

I have an interest in this as I am a qualified financial adviser with a diploma from the LIA. I have sold life cover for 17 years. The anecdotal evidence of which I am aware would bring a good industry into disrepute. The brokers have a role in bringing competition into the marketplace. A friend who sought a quotation for life cover was quoted a loading of €2,200 per quarter because he had particular health condition. Another company did not take the condition into account at all. That is a very significant amount. It will create problems in an industry which is not necessarily fee based but is percentage based. It is hard to find the benefit to the consumer if a percentage is paid over to the broker. It is in the broker's best interest to try to extract the highest fee than if he or she worked on a flat fee basis.

Mr. Dillane mentioned that he went to the UK and asked companies to do business here. Many of them referred to the moral hazard and the compensation culture. Is there a report abroad which states that Ireland is a market? In other words, any insurance company that looked at the Irish market would consult The Economist index or whatever red, green or black book used by the insurance industry. All the indicators would agree that Ireland is a moral hazard and has a compensation culture. If there is such a book, or such a group that analyses the marketplace, can we ensure that the market in Ireland is represented in the proper way? Companies here are making profits of €500 million. I want to see more competition in the Irish marketplace to the benefit of the consumer.

What time of year do the insurance companies receive their largest number of premia? Is it on a cyclical basis or is it throughout the year? Last year the insurance companies indicated certain levels of profits and this committee was aware of that. The second half of the year was exceptionally better than the first half. Is this normal? That would have given the committee an indication last year, which I do not believe it fully had, as to the extent of profitability in the Irish insurance market.

Quinn Direct has to be congratulated for the efforts it has made to bring down the cost of motor insurance. I have noticed for the first time that there are advertisements in national papers offering insurance to a person aged 20 for a certain sized car at a fixed price. It is in black and white and I welcome that. More should be done for young people, which is a hobby horse of mine. If someone aged 20 has a car with a 1,200 cc engine there should not be a difference of €2,000 from one quotation to another. I have seen it happen time and time again and have spoken about it before. Much could be done to improve the situation for those people.

Is it possible for brokers to source insurance outside Ireland from companies in the EU? This would benefit the citizens of this country because the big problem here is that there is not enough competition in the insurance market.

Brokers have a place in the insurance market. We no longer have the time to undertake these searches. The difficulty that people face is that when they have an experience like I had, they wonder should they have been using brokers all along. Some kind of structure needs to be put in place that does not consist of a limited transparency but rather complete transparency. No one would have a difficulty paying a fee to a broker if he or she was getting the best deal. However, more people source insurance themselves if they discover the discrepancies that I found.

Mr. Dillane

We made a point of going to the insurers in the UK which are licensed to underwrite in Ireland but who choose not to do so, especially through Lloyds. We presented them with market statistics and tried to show them evidence that while they may consider that Ireland is a market in which they do not wish to participate, there may be segments within the market that are profitable. We concentrated on SMEs. I am not sure that they consulted a book that told them not to come here, but they had a negative perception of the marketplace. They all had anecdotal evidence of claims being made involving an element of exaggeration or fraud. They looked at solicitor's costs where the cost of the average settlement doubled. They looked at the size of the market and wondered why they should come here as opposed to somewhere else. As newspaper reports revealed the reforms that were being carried out, we sent this evidence to them. It now looks as if attitudes could change. We have to entice more competition into the market. There has to be a reasonable chance of making a profit. These are private industries and have no requirement to come here. The only reason they will come here is if they have an opportunity to make profit.

That is a fair comment. Lloyds will send a delegation to this committee next Wednesday.

Mr. Owens

In 2001-02, 11 Lloyds syndicates, such as AXA and Colonial, exited the market. It was a reflection that they did not believe that the market would generate the returns that were required. There were two reasons for that. One was the inconsistency in trying to estimate claims costs, which made it very difficult to price a premium for any business. In particular, if there can be consistency in claim costs, people can price the business accurately and they will re-enter the market. There is far more confidence in the UK now about re-entering this market than there was previously.

These people vote with their feet. They leave the market when it suits them. They did that and it resulted in a small number of players in the market, which led to less competition and increased premia. For the first time in five or six years, one is beginning to see an appetite for re-entering this market. There are still some concerns about whether the PIAB will work and if we have nailed the compensation culture that existed. When we prove that is done, capacity will re-enter the market.

You will see the good work of this committee in holding everyone accountable, whether it is the Government, the brokers, the insurance industry or consumers. We will keep the pressure on. The reason we seek to produce an interim report every year is to maintain this pressure and to ensure that everybody stays focused.

Mr. O’Mahony

Somebody asked a question about the role of the broker in enticing overseas insurers to enter the market and create greater competition. I said earlier that Coyle Hamilton is unique in the market. The market itself is also unique in that it is dominated by a limited number of insurers. Over the last ten or 12 years most of those insurers have cut back from the cities outside Dublin and from rural areas to a point where if there was no local broker, there would not be an insurance presence in the city. There is an obligation on brokers in that area.

However, they also provide a valuable distribution channel for a new entrant. For a new entrant to this market, given that it is dominated by a small number of insurers, the costs of getting viable market share are significant. The broker market, therefore, provides an alternative way for a new entrant to get into the market. We have met the Tánaiste with a view to seeking her support in discussing with overseas insurers, who are not in the market at present, the possibility of their entering the market to provide competition. She has been supportive of what we are trying to do.

We believe we have an obligation to explain to overseas insurers how the situation in Ireland has changed. The Senator asked if there is a book somewhere in Europe that suggests Ireland is a bad risk. I am not aware of that but we all have an obligation, which we are trying to carry out, to explain to the underwriters in Europe, particularly in the UK, the changes that have occurred with regard to the compensation culture, the issue of responsibility, intolerance of fraud, improved regulation, compliance with health and safety regulations and so forth. These things have changed and that makes Ireland a significantly different proposition in terms of employer's liability, public liability and motor insurance. We have been actively seeking to entice insurers to enter the market with a view to providing a greater level of competition and, ultimately, bringing down prices.

What constraints do the insurance companies put on brokers?

Mr. O’Mahony

They put none on our company. We are of a size where the issue of whether we deliver a minimum level of business to insurance companies does not arise. As far as the staff in our office are concerned, we are dealing with placing business on behalf of clients.

Would it apply to a smaller company?

Mr. Murphy

No, it would not be an issue. The issue is, and perhaps the committee can help, to make the direct insurance rates from the direct insurers available to the brokers.

Mr. Dillane

No insurer puts a constraint upon us that would prevent us giving best advice, which is to shop around constantly.

Page 11 of your submission, Mr. O'Mahony, in the column on regulations, refers to lowering insurance costs and removing barriers to new entrants. Can you elaborate on that?

Mr. O’Mahony

Our concern in that area——

To what barriers are you referring?

Mr. O’Mahony

We suggest that the solvency issue should be examined with a view to doing something to entice new insurers. The other issue for new entrants is that further consolidation of an already strongly consolidated market would inhibit new entrants. From a national point of view the committee might consider what view legislators should take in the context of further consolidation.

You want the committee to examine that?

Mr. O’Mahony

Yes.

If we need further clarification we will revert to you.

Mr. Bisset

Our understanding is that the capital insolvency requirements for new entrants who wish to establish in this market are higher than those of existing established entrants. That acts as a barrier to competition.

If that was level, do you believe it would be more effective?

Mr. Bisset

It might make a difference. It has to be more attractive, although how much more attractive is not for us to say.

We will examine that closely before publishing our second interim report. I thank members of the committee and the delegations from the insurance and construction industries. The presentations and submissions have been a great help.

The committee sees itself as the conduit to Government on what might be required to amend legislation or to introduce new legislation to give the consumer a greater opportunity of benefiting from lower premia. We acknowledge that you are the professionals in the industry and we acknowledge your success in what you have done to date. However, we will call on you again during the lifetime of this Government to assist us in producing another interim report.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.35 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 28 April 2004.
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