JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE AND SMALL BUSINESS debate -
Wednesday, 16 Jun 2004

Immigrant Workers: Presentations.

Chairman

The committee has received apologies from Deputy Howlin. Today's meeting has been convened to discuss with representatives from the Immigrant Council of Ireland and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment issues arising out of the recent "Prime Time" investigation into immigrant workers employed in certain industries in Ireland. Both delegations will present their views on the matter to the committee.

It is proposed to first hear a presentation from the Immigrant Council of Ireland, followed by questions from members and to then hear from departmental representatives. Is that agreed? Agreed. I welcome Ms Denise Charlton, CEO of the Immigrant Council of Ireland, and Mr. Derek Stewart a member of the Immigrant Council's steering committee. I remind our visitors that while the comments of members are protected by parliamentary privilege those of visitors are not. Members are also reminded of the longstanding parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I now invite Ms Charlton and Mr. Stewart to make their presentation to the committee.

Ms Denise Charlton

Thank you. The Immigrant Council of Ireland is pleased to have an opportunity to make its presentation to the committee. We are also pleased officials from the Department are in attendance.

The Immigrant Council of Ireland is an independent organisation established by Sister Stanislaus Kennedy working for immigrants and promoting their rights through information, advocacy and awareness. The presentation will be divided between myself and Mr. Stewart. We will briefly touch on the context and background in which the council works. Everybody is aware that Ireland is becoming a receiving country as opposed to a country of emigration. I wish to make some overall recommendations while realising that the focus is on labour migrants, as was the focus of the "Prime Time" programme. However, it is not possible to talk about labour migrants without making some overall recommendations. We will then discuss some specific recommendations which arise from service users of which there are approximately 3,000 per year, and, in regard to Mr. Stewart's practice, the practical issues regarding existing policies.

Chairman

The Order of Business in the Dáil and Seanad commences at 10.30 a.m. It is usual for submissions to take ten to 12 minutes so as to provide members with time to ask questions.

Ms Charlton

We will try to keep to that schedule. Everybody is aware that Ireland has changed from being a country of emigration to a country of destination and is now a receiving country. Within that context there are many challenges. In terms of the number of people entering the country, we have a similar rate to countries of immigration such as the USA or Canada yet our policy development lags significantly behind those countries. Many significant challenges arise in the context of that change and the need for a comprehensive immigration policy.

The first recommendation relates to the need for a comprehensive immigration policy. It is clear that while the two matters are inter-related they are not the same. We respect the Government's right to control its borders in terms of inward migration but, the definition and administration of immigration categories will have an impact on the success of immigrant integration and treatment. In short, unless those admitted are seen as welcome additions to Irish society, integration and equal treatment will be difficult to achieve. We believe that an organising principle should be that the newcomers to Ireland are "us" and not "them". An immigration policy should be rights based and should proceed from a fair and transparent immigration and reception system to a comprehensive approach to integration. In Ireland it is possible to be informed by best practice and models from other countries and this is the context in which policies should be framed.

We should also have an integrated and representative approach to an immigration policy. Some policy developments have been mooted with regard to the legislation on the referendum and the pending immigration and residency Bill. These provide an opportunity to consult widely and we urge that the consultation includes not only all practitioners but also representatives from the newer community and migrant-led organisations.

On the implementation of a new comprehensive immigration policy, we recommend and identify the need for a robust cross-departmental mechanism which will drive the change process and co-ordinate the roles and activities of the respective Departments and agencies. Consideration should be given to appointing a Minister with responsibility for immigration and integration. Currently, no Government agency exists for this but responsibility is shared between several Departments. Representatives of the Department of Enterprise and Employment are here today. The Departments of Education and Science, Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Health and Children, Social and Family Affairs and Foreign Affairs are also involved with this issue. Immigration and integration issues should be mainstreamed throughout all the policy and legislative infrastructure of Government.

Another overall recommendation is that the principle of permanence should underpin our immigrant policy. It is our experience that immigrant workers experience significant difficulties with the existing policies relating to immigration and inclusion. The need for permanent workers or the desire of some workers to settle permanently are not acknowledged and policies are non-conducive to permanent settlement. Mr. Stewart will go through the implications of the specific policies and practices on the ground in this regard.

It is well documented that immigrants experience difficulties integrating into the workplace. The difficulties that emerge in studies include the temporary nature of the work permit, the fact it is held by the employer, mismatches between the jobs workers do and their qualifications, downward mobility, and a lack of opportunity for promotion and access to language training. Many have advocated a move to a new system, a move with which we concur.

We recommend that Ireland should maximise its legislative opportunities in this area. As already mentioned, an opportunity is available to do this in September with regard to the outcome of the referendum. The findings of a consultation process on a long awaited Bill on immigration and residency, commenced in 1998, were published in 2000. A Bill is promised by the Minister for 2005 and we urge widespread further consultation on it. We also wish to highlight that a number of implications for policy arise from international human rights conventions and emerging EU migration policy frameworks. These should be taken into consideration. We are keen on the idea of a forum or interdepartmental committee to consider pending legislation and immigration policy and strongly recommend such a process to this committee.

One of our overall recommendations is the need for an informed public debate. It is clear from discussions during the referendum and from the RTE exit poll that the strong majority of the "Yes" vote could be seen as an anti-immigration vote. The research of the No Racism committee shows there are many misconceptions around the context of immigration here. Many people throughout the country are unaware that so many immigrants are needed because of demographic factors or that they are invited into the country. This can give rise to racism and misunderstanding.

The research conducted by the No Racism committee confirms the findings that people believed that the number of non natives in the population was significant but that only a small proportion were working. The opposite is true. It was also believed that those working were not making a contribution to the economy, that asylum seekers were bogus, and that non-working immigrants received substantial benefits from the State. We need to challenge these myths and stereotypes. We recommend that research be conducted on the economic, social and cultural contribution of immigrants — the economic contribution is specifically relevant to this committee — to challenge some of those stereotypes and to shift the thinking on the issue.

This is a general overview of recommendations and I will now hand over to my colleague Mr. Stewart, from Stewart & Co., who is also a member of our steering committee. He will outline specific aspects of existing policies.

Mr. Derek Stewart

I shall focus on some specific recommendations which we feel should be considered and addressed in the light of present policies. One area of concern in the past four or five years has been the validity of the period of a work permit. This should be increased from the current minimum period of one year. The Immigrant Council of Ireland considers that the minimum period should be at least two years.

A second area of concern is recruitment agencies. I know from private practice that people, whether abroad or here, often pay considerable sums — anything up to $6,000 or €6,000 — for work applications. It is never clear when trying to address an impropriety in that regard where the responsibility falls and whether the recruitment agency concerned is abroad or a local agency here. Not only do the recruitment agencies affect the issue of work permits but they also play a role with regard to student visas. It must be admitted that often students from certain countries feel that because of the restriction on the number of work permits issued due to changes in categories over time or because of the new EU accession countries, the only way they can joint the market here is to get a visa to come in as a student and then work. The amounts of moneys paid to agencies, whether for employment or student visas or a combination of both, is wholly unregulated at present. This is a difficult issue to address with individual Departments appearing to take the view it should be the responsibility of another Department.

Another concern is that at present there is no system for examining the position of undocumented irregular people in the State. Five or ten years ago they would have come here to study medicine or such like but would have dropped out after two or three years, stayed for years and then sought to have their situation regularised. It was easier to do that then because numbers were smaller. Now, many undocumented people feel they cannot seek to have their position regularised because they are seeking regularisation in a milieu or context that is less favourable and positive towards their situation. As a result unknown numbers of undocumented irregular people are in the country. It could be anywhere between 5,000 and 15,000.

It might be asked how this is relevant to the Department dealing with the issue of work permits. It is relevant where people find their status has changed. For example, an Egyptian spouse of an Irish woman might have separated from her after seven or eight years. If the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform then says the Egyptian spouse no longer has a right of residence and will not renew his GNIP, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment may then in time not consider him eligible for a work permit because he does not fulfil the work permit requirements.

Often large numbers of people find themselves falling between different Departments. The difficulty is that one Department might say the matter is the responsibility of the other. We have even seen cases where work permits have been granted to people but they have then been refused an entry visa. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment may take the view that this is not its problem. However, we have seen the effect on migrants who fall between the two Departments and we hope there will be more co-operation between them in the future. The position of undocumented migrants is an area of considerable concern.

Another area of concern is the issue of migrant workers who become unemployed for one reason or another. In some cases it is because companies fold. In other cases people may lose their jobs through not being able to accept the level of exploitation any longer. I know of a case where an injured person was told he must keep working. This was a Ukrainian brickie who was reduced to the use of one arm but was told by his employer that he must keep working or lose his job. He was afraid to take any action against the employer. Some of these workers come from countries where people do not have employment rights and do not realise they have the same employment rights we have here.

One of the difficulties we have with regard to employment rights is understaffing, a problem we share with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. The Department is hugely understaffed in the context of labour inspectors. Until recently the same could be said of the Garda national immigration bureau. There were not enough immigration officers to visit employment sites in the city, never mind in the country. In areas where asylum-seekers could not work and yet may have had to make ends meet a considerable and growing number of undocumented workers emerged, yet immigration officers did not have the manpower to do anything about it. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment would agree that a total of only 17 inspectors for the regular workforce, never mind the immigrant workforce, is wholly inadequate. As a result, exploitation is increasing without, it appears, anything being done about it.

The manner in which the work permit is being restricted following the enactment of legislation last year is another area of concern, although we have not seen the figures on this aspect. I understand the position of the accession countries may have priority at this stage, nevertheless, people are being refused work permits when they would not have been refused last year. The reasons given are not sometimes wholly acceptable. It is unfair to refuse a Chinese restaurant a Chinese cook and for the restaurant to be told it can get one from Latvia or Lithuania instead. Increased numbers of outright refusals are leading to appeals. It would be worth monitoring the impact of the 2003 legislation in terms of the figures on a monthly basis to ascertain the extent of the changes over the past year.

Another primary area of concern is the issue of immigrant workers who have been here up to five years and do not have the right to bring in their partners or their spouses and children. Whatever chance they have of bringing in a spouse, they have even less chance with a partner. If workers have been here on work permits for two, three or four years and are at a stage where they are eligible for applications for certificates of naturalisation, it does not seem fair and just that their partners or spouses and indeed their young minor children should not be allowed join them. The application for the visa is processed jointly through the Department of Foreign Affairs and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and not so much through the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, but that Department should be lobbying for this in the same way as it took on board the lobbying for giving the spouses of nurses and certain other categories the right to live here. This should be extended. Some would argue it is slightly discriminatory in that the spouse of a nurse is more favoured than the spouse of a cleaner.

The idea of family unification is of specific concern to us at present. There is not much access to education and training for a variety of reasons for migrant workers. These are the principal concerns which are set out in greater detail in our presentation, where each case is developed.

Chairman

I have one question before I invite the members to ask their questions. The council is asking for two-year work permits. What is the norm in other EU countries?

Mr. Stewart

There is no harmony across the board. For example, in the United Kingdom, a first permit issued for a nursing technician was for a five-year period. Some may say that too long an initial period does not allow the State to monitor through the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, or Enterprise, Trade and Employment. However, a year goes by very quickly, especially when one considers the time taken to issue the permit, which depends on what country the person comes from and the embassy to which they must apply for an entry visa. We frequently have cases where at least six to nine months of the first-year work permit is spent before the employee arrives here.

Deputy Lynch

I thank the delegation for their attendance. This is a very important subject and one with which we need to come to terms. Mr. Stewart touched on it slightly in his presentation. Is the reason for the lack of permanency about work permits because we subconsciously have not yet convinced ourselves that this boom and upward trend in the economy is for real and that it will last? Is it a difficulty with our mindset as opposed to the mindset of workers coming here?

Ms Charlton

It is difficult to know. That is part of the answer. There are a number of factors to the principles underpinning the immigration policy. The council strongly recommends that Ireland should not just look to Europe or to other jurisdictions which have an attitude of, "We just want workers, we do not want people." The implications for practice as Mr. Stewart outlined have been discussed in some areas of Government by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, when he speaks of a green card system where from the beginning, people are treated as having a right to permanency. What is required in the area of immigration in so far as it relates to the Deputy's question is the questioning of Irish identity and who is regarded as Irish. We seem to have an underlying understanding of immigration as "us" and "them" and that people are only invited in on a temporary basis. If there is a change in the economy or if they are no longer required, they will go home. That is not the reality of the European experience. We have seen the implications of that attitude in countries such as Germany, which has had a policy of guest workers for many years. By contrast, in Canada, people are welcome and have access while the methods of access are very clear. That is an example of good practice and one which the council would advise if this forum is established.

Chairman

Has the council any other examples of another island nation such as Ireland? Canada is not a great example because it is a huge country. Before you respond I will call Deputy Wilkinson.

Deputy Wilkinson

I thank the delegation for making their presentation. I look at this issue from a more basic point of view. I am aware of some people who came in from eastern Europe to work here and go to school. They are well-educated young people but they have not been well-treated by the people who employed them. There are instances of tax deducted at source and not paid to the Revenue, no holiday pay, under-payment of wages, no overtime pay, long hours and poor treatment. I was shocked when I heard those details. It is not so long ago since our people were forced to go abroad. They may not have been treated too well in the early stages either. I thought that we as a nation, or at least some of us, might remember that. I have documentation about some of the cases and I am trying to help negotiate settlements. It is shocking and it should not happen.

I agree with much of what the delegation said but not everything. Some people are coming here whom we would be better off without and that has to be said. A small percentage can do a lot of damage to some very good people. There is no doubt that we need the people and the workers. The hospitality sector needs them. They work long hours and are underpaid and not too well treated. That situation should be changed. I am not sure why it is allowed. There are enough bodies and enough people to intervene and I wonder what is going wrong. I do not have the answers and I am not too familiar with the situation. There are many cases requiring urgent investigation and corrective treatment. I was terribly disappointed when I heard what was happening. Fine young, well-educated people with good intentions are not being treated well and that is not right. It is a reflection on our country. Given our past, we should know better.

Chairman

That is a relevant question for the officials from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

Mr. Stewart

I am trying to think of a comparable island and it is difficult. Over the years being an island has to some extent made our situation particular. Eleven years ago there were only ten asylum seekers here and the majority came through a link between Moscow and Havana. Our position as a small island makes us unique in many respects. New Zealand might be comparable in population size and might be experiencing the same kind of growth that perhaps Australia and America had 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago. While liberal might not be the word, they have a looser regime.

It is coming across to us all the time that workers feel bonded. I have a client who has worked seven days a week for the past ten weeks. His boss has said that if he takes one day off he will lose his job, which is quite common. The Deputy's point is best considered in terms of who will enforce it. It is a combination of enforcement from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Garda as well as the immigration officers who can look at exploitation and act quickly.

Deputy Callanan

Long hours and low pay were mentioned in the report. Given the existence of the minimum wage, this matter could be addressed. The biggest problem is that work permits are given to the employer. Would it not be easier to give these to the employee on arrival? The present system ties workers to the employer and may lead to poor practice by some employers. While 95% of employers treat their employees exceptionally well, those working for the other 5% may not be treated so well.

The process of re-application for work permits seems to take as much time as the original application. It should be a matter of form to re-authorise a worker who is already here without the need to go through the same criteria again. This should be easier as both the employer and employee should be happy at that stage.

Deputy Murphy

While the submission contains many details that must be examined and co-ordinated by many Departments, we have known for some time that there is much injustice due to issuing the work visa to the employer. We have known for some time of major exploitation of workers in many companies. While various Bills have been passed by the Houses of the Oireachtas, which could have rectified these problems, we failed to do so.

This is the most fundamental improvement needed. While all the other recommendations can be considered, we should deal with this issue immediately and move on to issues of family reunification and the other issues raised. The fundamental problem is the total control of the employer, which is leading to abuses. We know that workers are being charged unduly for accommodation and transport to and from work. We also know the hours they are required to work go way beyond what they should do and that other devices are used to reduce their wages. A simple device could immediately deal with this issue. While we can talk our way around this matter forever, we must start taking definite and specific action. The obvious one is there to be dealt with immediately.

Senator Hanafin

What proposals does the Immigration Council of Ireland have for naturalisation? Given that some people have been here on work visas for more than ten years, we should implement a policy of naturalising a certain number every few years. Given the contribution they have made to our economy, they should have citizenship rights.

Mr. Stewart

That is a good point. Taking it to its conclusion, clearly the right of an immigrant who is totally integrated after several years should be to citizenship. At present despite all the recent talk about how loose citizenship has been here, the process is quite difficult. While it is possible to apply for a certificate of naturalisation the granting of this is wholly at the discretion of the Minister. In recent times we have seen some refusals that are grossly unfair and the appeal system is internal. The entire naturalisation process should be reviewed and not just the part relating to birth.

To come back to the Senator's point, we do not have a permanent status, which was due to be addressed in a residency or immigration Bill promised since 1999. In other countries, particularly in the UK, those who have been in the country for two or three years are granted indefinite leave to remain. Unless they commit some serious crime they are allowed to stay for life. Those on yearly work permits, spouses of EU nationals parents of an Irish child and those on exceptional leave all have one-year stamps. In some cases this makes it difficult for migrant workers to get mortgages or do certain business transactions. Many people apply for naturalisation as soon as they become eligible, as it is the only way to secure permanence in the State. Some people feel if they apply for naturalisation they may lose their citizenship of birth, which they may want to keep, and do not know whether to apply. Thought has been given to granting the work permit to the employee.

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, was quoted in Monday's edition of The Irish Times as saying that he did not have a problem with a work permit going to an employee in the case of a professional high-skilled worker, but he had a problem with these permits going to non-professional low-skilled workers. I am not sure why he is making the distinction or where the line is drawn. With more liberal use of the work permit coupled with permanent residence or even semi-permanent residence of five, seven or ten years, the naturalisation issue might not be as crucial as it is at present.

Senator Hanafin

There is an absolute need for certain industries to survive. Given that some people will probably work here for ten years, would it not be appropriate to introduce legislation granting citizenship to those who have contributed in this fine manner to our economy ensuring that it has remained competitive?

Mr. Stewart

The Senator's suggestion is something that I have thought about for a few years because I have been involved in many naturalisation cases. After a period of time should citizenship become a right rather than simply having the right to apply? I have seen deserving people with excellent cases being refused just because of a minor road traffic incident on the basis that their criminal character would not make a fine citizen. It is not possible to stand over a naturalisation system that is implemented in such a way. If citizenship is to be considered in the broader sense in coming years, this should be done in the context of the right rather than the entitlement to make an application.

Deputy T. Dempsey

As most of what I intended asking has already been asked, I will be brief. Everybody abhors the exploitation of foreign workers. What is the role of the Immigration Council of Ireland? Mr. Stewart talked about an employee working for seven days a week for ten weeks. Is the council entitled to take action in such circumstances or is it a toothless body? I do not mean that insultingly. We have a duty to protect a fragile economy of which labour is a very important component. Quite a few of the workers who come to my constituency in County Wexford are seasonal and some of the jobs undertaken can be transitory. An economy as open and fragile as ours can turn down as quickly as it turns up and it is conceivable that seasonal workers could become a burden on the social welfare system which it could not support. In the event of an economic downturn and the liquidation of an industry, such workers might even become long-term unemployed. Do the delegates have any ideas on that aspect of immigration?

Deputy Nolan

Does the ICI have a register of immigrants currently in Ireland? If not, what interaction does the ICI have with various Departments and agencies regarding the number of people coming in? Would it be useful to provide on a statutory basis for immigrants coming to this country to have a contact group or organisation to act in their interests where they feel they are not receiving their true and just entitlements?

Ms Charlton

There are a couple of things to respond to, the first being the role of the ICI in terms of the exploitation of workers. The ICI is a non-governmental organisation and does not receive State funding. Among the recommendations in our paper is to resource NGOs to encourage and support those who are being exploited to access equality legislation, tribunals and protections. While Ireland's legislative structure is deemed to be one of the best in Europe, there are difficulties accessing it for many reasons, of which one is the vulnerability of migrants and immigrants. While people who avail of our services would wish to access legal protection, we do not have time to provide them with the necessary support to do so due to a lack of funding.

Deputy T. Dempsey

What did the ICI do in the case of the employee who worked seven days a week for ten weeks?

Ms Charlton

That is not what ICI does.

Mr. Stewart

There are two or three options in specific cases. In some cases, we have sought the assistance of inspectors in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and provided them with details. If a matter is serious, they follow it up fairly fast but they do not have the resources to follow up every case. As Ms Charlton said, we sometimes refer people to the equality commissions and start a case from there. In fewer cases, we initiate legal action against the employer involved. As clients are immigrants, they feel this process might affect their status but it is the best we can do.

Under the old aliens legislation of the 1930s and 1940s, the State is obliged to maintain a register of non-nationals. As recently as five to ten years ago, it included Spanish, British and German persons but now the Garda national immigration bureau seeks to register only non-European Union nationals. While the Garda bureau has a record of the numbers, there is no statutory agency which provides help to migrants in difficulties. Our paper makes recommendations on the broader issue of ministerial responsibility for migration and integration to ensure that even simple provisions will be made. A small amount of legal aid could have assisted the thousands of people who were forced to make submissions as to why they should be allowed to stay following the Supreme Court decision on Irish children. The sums involved would not have been significant by comparison with what is paid in legal costs at tribunals. A message was sent that while the rights of migrants are not being observed, we will not do too much to help them at present.

Deputy Nolan

How many migrants currently in the State are aware of the ICI? I acknowledge that this information may not be readily available.

Ms Charlton

It is very hard to know. About 3,000 people come to us annually and we have only been in operation two and a half years. We cannot deal with the demand. We have a waiting list of about a month and we cannot get back to people for about two weeks. That is due entirely to a lack of resources.

People who come to the country obtain information through networking. Therefore, the people who come to us are often linked to service users who have come to us previously. Time and again, it has been pointed out that there is a need for information at the point of departure for immigrants coming here. There is also a requirement for an induction process to provide basic information about Ireland. We would like to be able to produce that in conjunction with businesses and other social partners but lack the resources to do so. We do not receive State funding and would welcome any support in that area.

Deputy T. Dempsey

My second question was not addressed. Quite a few people coming to Wexford work in the fruit industry, which is seasonal. There is also a possibility of economic downturn resulting in the inability of a fragile economy with little potential to provide social welfare to support foreign workers. Do the delegates have any comments on that?

Ms Charlton

Immigration policies in other jurisdictions take into account the need for seasonal workers and seek to ensure that the seasonality of their employment is made clear. According to the experience of other jurisdictions, workers will not come and then go when we no longer need them. Where the work needs to be done is in the areas of data collection and prediction of the number of workers needed across Europe and nationally. This will make clear the manner in which people can come in and have equal rights and entitlements. The key is to link numbers to economic activity and make predictions in that regard. There should always be access to permanency unless jobs are specifically seasonal. Other jurisdictions take that into account.

Chairman

I thank Ms Charlton and Mr. Stewart for assisting the committee in the inquiry it is conducting. I welcome to the committee from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment Mr. John Walsh, Mr. Sean Gorman, Mr. Michael Cuniffe, Mr. Fergus McCafferty and Mr. Eddie Nolan. I propose to follow the same format as before. We will begin with a presentation by the Department which will be followed by a question and answer session. Mr. Walsh and Mr. Gorman will make the presentation while the rest of the delegation is prepared to answer members' questions if necessary.

Mr. John Walsh

The Chairman mentioned certain time constraints earlier. We have a statement which we are circulating to members and can provide an abridged version or read it in its entirety.

Chairman

It would be wise to provide an abridged version. If I were to organise this meeting again, I would take both groups together. I appreciate the attendance of Mr. Walsh who occupies a very high rank within the Department.

Mr. John Walsh

Mr. Fergus McCafferty deals with the administrative aspect of work permits, Mr. Michael Cuniffe with immigration policy, Mr. Sean Gorman with labour force development, Mr. Eddie Nolan with employment rights compliance and I look after employment rights and industrial relations. Mr. Gorman will begin our presentation and I will follow.

Mr. Sean Gorman

Thank you, Chairman. As Mr. Walsh indicated, we have circulated the full statement which members will be able to read it at their leisure. I will pick the main points from the part of the statement that relates to economic immigration policy and the work permits area.

Economic immigration is a new phenomenon in terms of the scale we have experienced in recent years. Traditionally, Ireland has had significant involuntary or economic emigration. Thankfully, through economic development and success, the position has been turned around and we are experiencing relatively high levels of economic immigration.

Our Department is responsible for administering the Government's economic immigration policy. There are connections and overlaps at times with the broader issue of immigration policy, which is administered by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, but our focus in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is primarily driven by economic immigration in the context of meeting labour market needs. It is important to understand that we share responsibilities with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. As well as administering immigration policy, we also have responsibility for enforcing employment rights and health and safety legislation, which Mr. Walsh will discuss.

As I stated, the scale of the economic immigration we are experiencing is a new phenomenon. As recently as 1999, we issued only 6,000 permits. By 2003, the figure had increased to more than 47,000, an increase of 700%. In the four year period between 1999 and 2003, more than 94,000 applications for work permits were approved, of which 55% were renewals. The paper provides an annualised breakdown of the actual permits issued, the top five countries of origin and the top five sectors receiving the workers. I will not read out the details but we can deal with them if necessary if members have questions afterwards.

In addition to the work permit, we use other instruments to assist in meeting our skills and labour shortages. Under the working visa work authorisation scheme, we authorised 9,000 persons to work in Ireland between mid-2000 and the end of 2003. Under arrangements for intra-company transfers we have facilitated more than 700 people to come here to work since October 2002. We have facilitated a further 115 persons who were granted concessions to come here under a training scheme we operate.

Given the pace of economic growth, economic immigration policy has been very responsive and flexible in terms of response to labour market needs. It has been constantly evolving and changing at a rapid pace and we have reflected labour market trends. During 2003, when the labour market loosened somewhat, we introduced new arrangements, whereby employers were first required to register vacancies with FÁS to try to fill them in the first instance either locally in Ireland or from the broader European economic area. This reflected a slight loosening in the labour market and our obligations as members of the European Union to address what is known as Community preference.

A further response we made to the developing scenario was to put new arrangements in place to allow the spouses of certain skilled non-EEA nationals to obtain a work permit more easily. We also developed a new intra-company transfer scheme. In addition, we have been having discussions at social partnership level with a group of the parties involved in the pay talks and drew up a number of areas of agreement with them during the year, which inform economic immigration policy as we proceed. We can make the paper in question available separately to the committee.

One of the most significant developments in this very short period was the Government's decision to allow full freedom of access to the labour market by nationals of the new EU member states. This was very significant as it completely opened the market. We have no bureaucracy or paperwork and the citizens of the countries in question are now free to come here and shop around the labour market to find work.

We also introduced, with the assistance of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, a new Employment Permits Act, which introduced new arrangements for penalties against employers for illegally employing workers. It also provided for penalties against employees. This was aimed at trying to protect workers from exploitation.

The arrangement for accession and opening the market also includes a safeguard clause built into the relevant legislation. This reflects the possibility, referred to earlier, of an economic shock or significant downturn. In such circumstances, certain safeguards are available on which we can call and fall back for a period of seven years up to 2011, after which that option will not be available to EU member states and full freedom of movement will apply across the European Union.

For citizens of third countries outside the enlarged European Union, in respect of whom renewal of work permit applications is now an issue, their work permits are being automatically renewed by the Department subject to all the normal requirements being met. Because we have opened the labour market to all member states, we are not turning our backs on the migrant workers who came here from third countries. Subject to them meeting the normal requirements, their work permits are being renewed.

I will highlight some of the safeguards we have been building into the work permits process. These complement some of the matters Mr. Walsh will discuss in protecting workers who come here under the work permits regime. When the application for a work permit is received, a statement of the main functions of the job is required. We also ask the employer for information on salary, wages, deductions other than statutory deductions and other benefits, as well as the hours to be worked per week. We introduced a new arrangement a couple of years ago whereby both the employer and the proposed employee must sign on the application form that the conditions and terms are as stated and are understood by both parties. We do not grant work permits unless there is compliance with the minimum wage legislation. When we consider the renewal of a work permit application, we require confirmation that the stated wages have been paid and we use information from P60s and other sources to validate this requirement.

In circumstances where relationships break down between employees and employers, we have been very flexible on a case by case basis in considering applications from other employers to employ work permit holders who for one reason or another may have found their relationship with their original employer untenable.

As regards the future, we are seeking to continue to tighten the protections we build in at the initial stage of the work permit process to protect the worker and help the employer ensure he or she is getting the right kind of person. We will pay closer attention to skills levels, wages on offer and similar matters.

We have worked very closely in recent times with the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social and Family Affairs and we are building an information technology based system in which social welfare, the Revenue and our system can communicate quickly and conveniently to try to validate that the various protections workers would expect are being provided and the employment conditions promised to them when they were asked to come here are being delivered. We are making very good progress in that regard.

When one considers that we have moved from 6,000 work permits per annum to more than 40,000 per annum, we have experienced a dramatic increase. It is important, however, to put it into context. We have 1.8 million people at work in the economy. The actual numbers of people who are facilitated from what are now third countries under the work permit and other systems account for a relatively small proportion of the workforce. That is not to say they are not an important part of the workforce or that we should not be paying attention to their needs, but to put the figure into perspective. While these workers are providing a very valuable resource in relative terms, they continue to make up a small proportion of the workforce.

Chairman

Is the figure 47,000?

Mr. Gorman

We issued up to 47,000 work permits in one year and reckon there are probably in excess of 50,000 here at any given time under the various systems. While these workers come and go, we estimate the figure to be of that order. That is the position as regards work permits on which we continue to work to evolve policy. Given that the dynamics of the labour market continue to change, we try to be as responsive and flexible as possible.

Mr. Walsh

I will continue by making a general statement in regard to compliance with employment rights legislation. The protections built into the vetting of the work permits system have already been explained. They are designed to protect employees before they get here. Over the past 50 years we have built up a comprehensive corpus of employment rights legislation. Circumventing and breaching employment rights is not a new phenomenon; it goes on in regard to immigrant workers and Irish workers. The Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Harney, and the Minister of State at the Department with responsibility for labour affairs, Deputy Fahey, have repeatedly made the point that there is no distinction between the application of employment rights legislation for Irish workers or immigrant workers. Exactly the same regimes apply. This was enshrined in legislation by means of an addition made to the part-time work legislation of 2001. All our legislation provides for forms of redress if people feel they have been mistreated. Penalties apply if it is found they have been mistreated. Redress systems are provided for in each Act.

I am satisfied that compliance is the norm. As Mr. Gorman said, 1.8 million people are working in Ireland. I thought the figure was 1.7 million so I am delighted to hear another 100,000 people are working here. People working here are protected by the corpus of employment rights legislation. If they are not covered by legislation and that is brought to our attention, we will follow up on it. Equally, certain legislative provisions require people to take the initiative themselves and approach a rights commissioner or bring a case before the equality tribunal or various other routes. As always, there will be employers who will try to circumvent, not only employment rights legislation but every other legislative provision, be it taxation, social welfare, planning or health and safety. They tend to be the same type of employers. The value of a joined-up system is that if they are not compliant in one area, the likelihood is that they might not be as compliant as we would wish in other areas.

How do we ensure compliance? We have a compliance section headed up by Mr. Eddie Nolan. It is made up of three inter-related parts. There is an information unit, what is known as the labour inspectorate and at the end of the chain is the legal services unit. This integrated body has been put together in the past year or two, driven in a sense by a new IT system which pushes things through in a case management system. If something comes in, it has to be followed right the way through the system. We have looked at how it works and are satisfied we have a good system, having consulted with the various bodies and the social partners. It works, although one might say it is complicated.

We recently completed a review of the role and functions of the employment rights bodies. We need to take a fundamental look at how the legislation, some of which is complicated, that has evolved over 50 years inter-relates and we will bring that to the Government in the not-too-distant future. The various legislative provisions can be difficult for Irish practitioners and they can present difficulties for people from overseas.

We also have an information unit which deals with many phone calls, personal callers, e-mails etc. We also work extensively with citizens information centres, CICs. The question was asked if State funding is provided for the provision of information. CICs, which are located around the country, are funded through Comhairle. We supply them with training, information, documentation and assist them in every way. In some cases, up to 40% of their workload relates to employment issues. They are providing a valuable service. We have leaflets in nine different languages that include the main languages of those using work permits. In addition to CICs, we also supply this information to our embassies and to the embassies of the countries from which people are coming, in addition to the Garda national immigration bureau which has regular contact with people.

The job of the labour inspectorate is to enforce the legislation, but it can only do so within the powers given under the legislation. It has powers to inspect records. The point was made that it can go back over a period of time and follow through on that, but in many cases to achieve a prosecution requires the attendance of the person in court to provide evidence. Having conducted an inspection we can usually achieve compliance by means of a letter to the employer who might not fully appreciate the range of the legislation. When it is pointed out to them, we often get full compliance. Overdue wages are subsequently paid to people. |f this does not happen, we immediately proceed to prosecute. We also go straight to prosecution if we come across an instance of a breach of the legislation protecting young people. The job of the legal services section is to enforce the awards made by either the Labour Court or the Employment Appeals Tribunal and ultimately to carry through the prosecution function in regard to employment rights legislation.

To complicate the matters, there are other issues, such as rights commissioners, the Labour Relations Commission, the Labour Court, the Equality Tribunal and the Employment Appeals Tribunal. The various legislative provisions provide access to these bodies. They form part of the complexity of our employment rights legislation, which is applicable to everybody in the country.

Chairman

Did Mr. Walsh see the "Prime Time" programme?

Mr. Walsh

I did.

Chairman

I am sure Mr. Walsh was as alarmed as many viewers were. He clarified most of the allegations that were made. There are exceptions to the norm and the "Prime Time" programmers were looking for that type of slant. Both the committee members and the eminent gentlemen working in the Department want to ensure that this activity is not allowed to continue. Following that programme, is it possible to tighten up the regulations or enforce them more strictly?

Mr. Walsh

I will speak on the enforcement side. I saw the programme and was saddened by it. It was heart-rending in places. Even in advance of the programme, in the past year or 18 months we have particularly concentrated our efforts. With the aid of the computer system we are able to more closely identify the sub-sectors wherein we need to pay most attention. We just finished an intense blitz on the security industry, which we did in conjunction with the industry. We have also identified other sectors on which we will move. We have built that into our area of planning.

We find that immigrant workers, in particular, tend to be employed, some on a seasonal basis, in the hospitality sector, catering, cleaning, security, the horticultural sector, mushroom growing and so on. These are the areas in which we are particularly interested. We have worked extensively with the sectoral industries, the IFA, the horticultural sector and the Irish Hotels Federation, among others, to raise standards. Deputy Wilkinson made the point——

Chairman

There was mention of working for seven day periods.

Mr. Walsh

I believe that was raised by the Immigrant Council of Ireland. Deputy Wilkinson stated he had also come across instances of this well. He was saddened and ashamed by it. It is fair to say that the representative organisations themselves are saddened and ashamed by it. Part of the rooting out of this is to be done by ourselves. It is also to be done by the representative bodies of these organisations — they are not doing any favours for the other hoteliers or caterers, security people or mushroom growers. We work on that basis. Many of the organisations have now put together excellent manuals for people on their employment rights and entitlements. They are working through their federations and memberships to ensure there is good compliance. We will and do work with them to ensure that we follow up. The better the information we get, be it from the industries or sectors themselves, the more we can target our efforts. They have a good idea of who is undercutting and underpaying. Equally, complaints we receive assist us in targeting our efforts.

The number of labour inspectors was mentioned. We cannot have a labour inspector in every place of employment, but if we receive good information and intelligence in advance, we can achieve what we are meant to achieve, namely, compliance.

Mr. Fergus McCafferty

As Mr. Gorman mentioned, I am the head of administration pertaining to the work permits. My colleague, Mr. Michael Cunniffe, is responsible for the policy end.

One of the slight difficulties is that the Irish Immigrant Council has a much broader series of interests in immigrants than we have. We issue work permits to the employer because that is what Irish law currently requires us to do. However, over the past six months or year, we have been conducting a risk analysis to see where things could go wrong. For example, it was mentioned earlier that there are some delays in renewing permits. The delay is caused by the fact that we are trying to investigate to ensure that the worker is being paid fully and working under the conditions that were originally promised. If not, we take action against their employers.

When a person has a work permit, he is part of the system. As Mr. Gorman stated in respect of linking up automatically with the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social and Family Affairs, our job is to ensure that people who come here are employed in the formal economy and that they are insured should something happen to them. RTE made available to the Department details on this, but although it interviewed over 100 workers, only 11 were prepared to allow their names to be mentioned. The RTE material makes it clear that out of over 100 workers, six were covered by work permits. That is probably part of the difficulty. If people are undocumented and working, they may be afraid of what might happen if they draw themselves to the attention of the authorities.

Chairman

If there are 50,000 work permits, as Mr. Gorman has told us——

Mr. McCafferty

Last year.

Chairman

In Mr. McCafferty's opinion, how many unofficial employees are there?

Mr. McCafferty

Given that they are unofficial, unfortunately nobody knows.

Chairman

Are there another 50,000?

Mr. McCafferty

I do not know. I suppose the same obtains in Britain, where the authorities say they do not know. My understanding is that in the absence of an official national identity card, it is impossible to know who is in the State at any one time. However, there seems to be a difficulty in that if people are undocumented, they are not part of the system and may be afraid to draw attention to themselves.

Chairman

Is Mr. McCafferty saying an official identity card would be of enormous assistance?

Mr. McCafferty

No. I am saying that in the absence of an official identity card, it is impossible to know who is in the State at any one time. Whether or not the State wants such a card is far too complex an issue for me to be addressing.

Chairman

Is it recommended?

Mr. McCafferty

I am not in a position——

Chairman

To get a handle on it.

Mr. McCafferty

——to recommend their introduction.

Chairman

What is Mr. McCafferty's opinion? Would he consider their introduction?

Mr. McCafferty

I used to sit on a committee that tried to address disadvantage. Those participating happened to have degrees and all believed that everybody should carry a document stating his or her educational qualifications. That is all very well if one has done well in the system. If one has not done well in it, one may not want to carry a document stating one never passed any examination and that one left school at nine years of age. While it is all very well for me, a middle-aged civil servant, to say I believe identity cards are a good idea, I do not believe it is appropriate for me as a civil servant to offer a definitive view. It is a very complex issue that requires an enormous amount of consultation and consideration before any action is taken.

Chairman

Having said that, there are 50,000 people in the system whose identities are unknown.

Mr. McCafferty

The Garda authorities are principally responsible for immigration, and my section, which includes me and Mr. Cunniffe, has close contact with the Garda national immigration bureau. The bureau is trying to address this to ensure that there is a better fix on any undocumented people in the country.

Chairman

Therefore, the Department is trying to address the issue.

Mr. McCafferty

Yes.

Deputy Murphy

I have no quarrel with the issues and methods that have been put in place to ensure employers comply with the various employment laws. The legislation applies to everybody, including Irish citizens, other European citizens and immigrant workers. The basic fact is that the best protection any worker can have against exploitation is the right to walk away from his job and seek employment from another employer. No matter what type of regulations are put in place, one will have rogue employers who will abuse them once the employee is indentured to them. It has been clear for some time that this change needs to made. Given what the Department officials are doing in the context of overall employment legislation, it is also clear that an immigrant worker is at a serious disadvantage compared to every other worker in the State because he cannot exercise the basic right to walk out of his job.

Exploitation is fairly widespread. Every Deputy and Senator knows of instances of exploitation in his or her constituency. Therefore, it is not a once-off problem and it needs to be dealt with. It does not matter how many cases exist; one is too many. The decoupling of the work permit from the employer and giving it to the employee to help prevent exploitation should be dealt with by the Houses immediately. The Houses had the opportunity to do so through various Bills in recent months. There seems to be much talk about it. Apart from what I heard about the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform having some reservations about it, there is consensus in the Houses that this is the correct way forward. This committee should recommend strongly to the Government that it move on this issue immediately.

Deputy Callanan

I agree with Deputy Murphy. Why did employers get permits rather than the employees? I am glad that it will be made easier to renew work permits and that the Department is insisting on proper pay. I presume "proper pay" means the minimum wage. Do they insist on the minimum wage being paid to those with work permits?

From now on nationals of the new EU member states can come to Ireland without restrictions. How many of those already here with work permits come from these countries? Will many more come looking for work now that they are free to come here?

Mr. Gorman

My colleague, Mr. Cunniffe, will respond to the questions about work permits and employers. He will give some figures for the proportion of workers coming from the accession states and indicate what we think is likely to happen following the decision to allow them come here free of bureaucracy.

Mr. Cunniffe

On the issue of job-changers, it is not a case of bonded labour, although in some cases there is no doubt people have stayed with employers out of fear. Since mid-2000 when I became involved in this area, we have been facilitating people in changing jobs because the logic of not doing so is to say to an employee, "You either lost or left the job. Therefore, the Irish experience has not worked out for you and you should remove yourself from the State." There are various views on how tenable that is but one would also need the social will and the administrative apparatus to remove such persons from the State. Clearly, neither is available and it would not be the ethic in this society to say to them: "You lost your job after four months, clear off home."

When a person loses a job, if he or she can find another eligible employer, we are willing to grant a work permit. That is what we have been doing for four years. In 2002, 3,800 work permit employees changed employer. The total for last year is 3,500. In the current year to date, approximately 63 employees have changed employer per week. A growing number of the new permits given out this year are for people changing employer.

On the question of who should hold the work permit, one must bear in mind that a permit simply implies permission. In common with most other systems in Europe, the permit was granted to the employer to ensure there was a job for the employee to take up. That is what guarantees somebody will not wind up a client of the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Coughlan. One will find that most work permit systems in Europe include this particular provision and not all of them are as liberal as ours. I know of no system, in Europe or elsewhere, which is operated as liberally as the one in Ireland. I have asked those who disagree to come back to us but they have not done so.

One can always change a system in order that employment permits are held by employees. We already have such a system for working visas and work authorisations where the persons coming here are highly skilled. If they want to move around within an industry, they should have no great difficulty in finding new employers in an era of skills shortages. It may well be that in future Ministers will wish to expand on the numbers of working visas and work authorisations which are held by the employee and last for a period of two years but that would be a political decision in the light of an analysis of labour needs. This would be easier because the people concerned are highly skilled and highly paid.

In most European countries there is a higher unemployment rate among migrant workers, much of which relates to the initial policy decisions. It amounts, in fact, to second generation unemployment. It occurs where one has large numbers of unskilled workers who, with their families, do not integrate. As a people, we can do whatever we want in this area provided we are prepared to live with the longer term implications of short-term decisions. I agree with earlier speakers that in looking at migration we certainly need to consider the impact of decisions we might make in the future, for example, on the school system, health services, social services and the demand for housing, but it should be easier because the future pattern of economic migration is likely to involve higher skilled workers.

From the experience of recent years, we believe we can meet the great bulk of our overseas labour needs from within the expanded European economic area. Last year only 35% of economic migrants came from the accession countries. The reason is that in recent years the system has been driven by recruitment agencies which find workers abroad and then introduce them to employers who then apply for a work permit. One could argue that in a period of a boom and when there was great pressure on the system to some extent the State stood back and the recruitment industry filled the gap. The State is now very much back at the centre and has made it clear to employers and the recruitment industry that we intend to meet the great bulk of needs for workers with middle or lower skills from within the expanded European Union. We have explained to the governments of the accession countries such as Poland where there is a 20% unemployment rate that we will be happy to see more of their people coming to Ireland to work in the short or long term. We believe that perhaps 70% of what we need could be met from within the accession countries and the wider European Union.

Chairman

Will there be a shortage of labour in the immediate future?

Mr. Cunniffe

The demand is buoyant in all areas. Even in recent weeks much of the demand is for low skilled and relatively low paid workers. Where we have granted permits, they are for the job-changers to whom I referred. We accept that in various sectors there will be a need for third country nationals. We are open to the rest of the world for higher skilled, higher paid workers. This is a time of considerable change and most foreign workers who will come to Ireland in the future will be outside the work permit system. It should be understood that virtually every European country has a work permit system along the lines of our own but they may also have other instruments. Some will have streams for permanent migration of higher skilled workers only while others will deal mainly with seasonal labour.

Ireland is not one of the settlement countries like Australia or the USA. To date, no European country has decided that its future identity will be formed through migration, although they all accept migration is growing. That is where the perspective differs in what are termed the traditional settlement countries like New Zealand and Canada. There is a different mindset and approach but everybody accepts that the reality is that migration is growing and throws up particular issues which must be faced. This is undone by natural forces.

Chairman

Those comments are both good and helpful.

Mr. Gorman

The latest figure I have seen for the level of unemployment in the expanded European Union is 18 million. That is a large pool from which we hope to meet the bulk of our skills and labour needs in the medium term. We also have an obligation as a member of the European Union to maximise the potential to tap into this pool.

I want to make one point wearing my broader labour market policy hat. We also have an obligation to unemployed persons in this country. Thankfully, the unemployment rate is relatively low at 4.4%. In parallel with policies to supplement the labour force with immigrant labour, a range of policies being delivered through FÁS and the Department of Education and Science are aimed at helping people not in the labour market and who are experiencing disadvantage, either because of learning problems or a lack of skills, etc., in accessing the market. There is also a parallel agenda, a parallel series of actions to help the long-term unemployed to access jobs. This will be important because it will be a very competitive labour market now that it has been opened to workers from 25 countries which means the competition for jobs will increase. There is parallel work going on as well. Economic immigration is only one instrument that we are using to try to meet the labour and skills needs of industry.

Chairman

Do you envisage a job shortage in the next 18 months to two years?

Mr. Gorman

We believe we will need to continue for the foreseeable future, subject to us not suffering any serious negative economic shocks, to supplement the available workforce with economic immigration. That is what all the experts are telling us. From the point of view of the Government, the focus will be on maximising the potential contribution from the European Union to meet that shortage.

Chairman

Does Mr. Walsh wish to add to that?

Mr. Walsh

I will respond to the point on employment agencies and the suggestion by the Immigrant Council of Ireland that they should be regulated. Employment agencies are regulated, but under old legislation, the Employment Agency Act 1971. The 1971 Act is almost an attempt by Ireland at that time to protect Irish people going abroad by seeking to ensure they would have a job at their place of destination. The Act provides that where the recruitment agency is based in Ireland it must be able to see the person before he or she leaves the country and must be able to provide an assurance that there would be a job abroad for him or her. Clearly the legislation is out of date in the current day and age where recruitment takes place over the Internet.

It is interesting to note that there was a boom in agency licences issued which peaked in 2001, at 778, around the time of the big employment boom. Last year, the figure was down to 541. We have drawn up a discussion paper on the Act. It was advertised in the national media in May and we hope to receive submissions with a view to bringing forward new legislation. We have various suggestions as to what might take place by way of a legislative framework. There was a phenomenon of employment agencies in Ireland operating with sister agencies in other countries overseas, in the Philippines in particular, but we managed to put in place a bilateral arrangement with the Philippines, which has a system whereby if one is leaving in a structured manner and going overseas, one must register with their authorities. The Philippine counsel in Ireland has been quite active in that general area. We make certain suggestions——

Chairman

The nurses from the Philippines make a very important contribution.

Mr. Walsh

Certain suggestion have been made as to how we could amend the 1971 Act and one suggestion is that those who recruit through overseas agencies would become the employer in Ireland from day one, so that the employer in Ireland cannot hide behind the fact that those recruits came from an unlicensed agency somewhere in the Philippines. There was talk of people being charged money up front. What has happened in certain instances is that the agency overseas is paid while the agency in Ireland is not allowed charge anything. However, we do not know what goes on behind the relationship between the two agencies. Perhaps we need a direct line between the employer in Ireland and the person coming into the country.

The other route would entail a system of pre-registration by agencies overseas. The work permit section keeps a close eye on agencies in collaboration with ourselves and a system of pre-registration by agencies overseas could become a pre-application element of the application for a work permit. The consultation paper is in circulation and we await comments before we move forward.

Chairman

This room is available to us until 11.30 a.m. We will try to conclude the meeting by that time.

Deputy Callanan

There are a number of immigrants working for employers, but at this stage they have no permits. Perhaps they would have had a permit at one stage, but did not renew them and so on. It appears the only way they can become legal immigrants is by returning home and reapplying to come to Ireland. Is there not a case for an amnesty to rectify their situation?

Mr. Cunniffe

There are two issues. The first involves those who came in on a work permit originally and the employer neglected to renew the permit. In that case, since legislation dealing with employment permits came into force in April 2003, the employer is guilty of a breach in criminal law and our approach is that should be enforced. The onus is on the employer to apply for the permit. One can be more understanding to those who could show that they were in a given place of employment where a permit had been issued for them and to the best of his or her knowledge, he or she was still in legal employment. However, where somebody came on holiday and stayed and worked illegally, the situation is very different. If one is to have an amnesty for people who came on holidays, stayed and worked illegally, it would create a huge pull factor. The International Labour Organisation in Geneva, which represents workers and employers from virtually all the countries in the world spent two weeks discussing this among other issues earlier this month. It was one of the most contentious issues. Any question of expectation of regularisation or an amnesty is a big draw factor and all 25 governments of the European Union together with the settlement countries of North America, Australia and so on, were utterly opposed to it. One will find that my Department has had a very understanding attitude, as have officials in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, with whom we work, where people originally came in and worked legally and then because of the behaviour of the employer, found themselves in an illegal or an irregular situation.

To put the changes of recent years in context, Irish economic immigration peaked three years ago in 2001, when we issued almost 30,000 new work permits. Last year that was down to 22,000 new permits. This year, up to yesterday, which is virtually half way through the year, we issued 6,000 permits. Of that 6,000, I am happy to advise the committee that 1,215 people were already here and changed jobs. We have issued approximately 4,800 first time permits and we are almost half way through the year, whereas in 2001, we issued 30,000 permits. The numbers of new arrivals are dropping but, of course, there is a significant population from overseas living here. However, the rate of influx has been decreasing dramatically and will continue to decrease because of EU enlargement.

There are issues to be addressed from the population already here and although this should not grow in terms of volume, it does not mean that we do not need to address them. With the changed skills profile, we should not see a repetition of some of the obvious abuses we know about and have been addressing in recent years. Certainly, the "Prime Time" programme did not come as a surprise, as we have come across many of the hard cases ourselves and we have put a few employers out of the work permit system. We have done it administratively and it is up to them to decide whether to complain to the Minister, the Ombudsman, or go to court. Such employers are in no doubt as to why they are outside the work permit system.

Chairman

Work permits were issued to 30,000 people in 2001, while to date this year, 4,800 have been issued, with an additional 1,215 permits issued to people who were already here on a permit. Are the permits issued in 2004 additional to the 30,000 permits issued in 2001?

Mr. Cunniffe

No.

Chairman

Have the people who were issued with permits in 2001 returned home, or are they here unofficially, as Mr. McCafferty suggests?

Mr. Cunniffe

There is a mixture. We issued approximately 30,000 new permits in 2001. The renewal rate is growing in recent years. In 2002, approximately 16,000 permits were renewed, that is, a little over 50% renewal rate. The renewal rate has been growing, partially because the system was tightened up and employers did not like the idea of paying €500, but we would argue that the increased processing fee for permits helped to give employers an incentive to make the right recruitment choice at the outset and to send the signals to the recruitment industry to find them the right person, because they do not wish to keep paying for this service. The renewal rate last year was running at approximately 60%, which we like because it means employers and employees have been finding one another and staying together. However, we do facilitate movement. We have been able to do it because the economy has been so buoyant. In different circumstances one would have had to make other decisions, but that is not to say that everybody who comes to Ireland for six months' work becomes a permanent member of Irish society. That is a different matter.

Chairman

The mushroom industry, which is where quite a number of these people found employment, has been in serious decline over the past two years.

Mr. Cunniffe

It should be borne in mind that much of the economic migration we get is of a short-term nature. These people are not unlike some of us who worked in London or New York at various times, or people who nowadays go to Australia for a year. Quite a few people, especially from central and eastern Europe, come here to work hard, save as much as possible, live as cheaply as possible and remit the money home where it still has between four and five times the purchasing power. They are very happy to come and work in Ireland, and may even want to come back again, but it does not mean that they want to stay for the hurling championship every year. It is in their interests. Many of us have done the same abroad as well.

Chairman

In the words of the poet Patrick Farrell, "Where is the one who does not love the land where he was born?" The same applies to people everywhere.

Mr. Eddie Nolan

Most of the discussion so far has been on the higher policy level. As I work more at a practical level in terms of the ongoing cases, the one point I want to highlight is that the inspectors work under warrant. Their powers, what they can do and what they can ask for, are clearly defined in legislation. We find that many of our contacts stretch beyond what would be the remit of the inspectorate. Areas like accommodation and the amenities available are completely outside our remit.

I would also point out that the onus of proof on the inspectorate is significant. If we go to court and carry out a prosecution, it is a criminal offence. We focus our efforts more on achieving compliance than going the full route through to prosecution.

Chairman

We have had a very informative briefing from these gentlemen. On behalf of the committee, I thank them for coming to assist us here this morning. I look forward to us coming together from time to time over the next three years so that they may assist us in various other aspects of their portfolios.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.35 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 17 June 2004.