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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE AND SMALL BUSINESS debate -
Wednesday, 8 Dec 2004

Scrutiny of EU Proposals.

The committee will hear a presentation from the Consultative Committee of Accountancy Bodies in Ireland on the revised auditing directive, known as the eighth directive, scrutinised by the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business on 30 June 2004. I welcome the delegation, represented by Mr. Terence O'Rourke, chairman of the Consultative Committee of Accountancy Bodies in Ireland and president of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland, Mr. Brendan Murtagh, the Association of Chartered Certified Accountants, Mr. Eamon Siggins, the Institute of Certified Public Accountants in Ireland and Ms Heather Briers, the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland.

While members' comments are protected by parliamentary privilege, those of visitors are not so protected. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We welcome the opportunity to speak on the proposals contained in the revised EU directive on the statutory audit of annual accounts and consolidated accounts, known as the eighth directive. The directive of 10 April 1984 dealt primarily with the approval of statutory auditors in member states. Although the directive contains some requirements on registration and professional integrity, it does not include requirements on how a statutory audit should be conducted, nor does it deal with the degree of public oversight or external quality assurance needed to ensure high audit quality.

Since 1996 the Commission has been examining the effectiveness of the existing directive in light of developments within the profession. The result of these reviews is the new proposed directive. The timing of this revision is, from an Irish perspective, most opportune. New legislation, the Companies (Auditing and Accounting) Act 2003, has been introduced, bringing into law the recommendations of the review group on auditing. The review group, of which I was privileged to be a member, considered national and international developments and developed a regulatory regime to meet the needs of Irish investors, taking into account existing corporate structure and culture. As a result of our early initiative, Ireland is already largely compliant with the proposed eighth directive.

In revising the directive the aim of the Commission was to reinforce the statutory audit function in the EU to recognise that it is one of the crucial elements for underpinning investor trust in the European capital markets; to harmonise the statutory audit function in Europe and internationally; and to provide a basis for effective international regulatory co-operation with third country oversight bodies such as the US Public Company Audit Oversight Board, PCAOB.

With regard to the particular provisions of the directive, we strongly support the aim of international harmonisation of the statutory audit function; the aim of improvement in audit quality within the audit firms through the requirement for auditors to be subject to a system of quality assurance and for the professional bodies to be subject to an independent oversight function; and the aim to improve transparency by requiring member states to maintain and hold specified information on a publicly available register of auditors.

In Ireland all of the above have already been put in place, either in whole or in part. However, we have a number of concerns on specific matters in the directive and the impact these will have on business, particularly small and medium enterprises, SMEs, in Ireland.

Once the directive is approved by the European Parliament, all member states will be required to transpose the directive into national law. Unfortunately, the language in the directive is at times unintelligible. The original text has been subject to at least nine revisions with different countries responsible for the amendments. It is important that the directive at a high level sets out future requirements in a clear, unambiguous fashion which is not open to a variety of interpretations by different countries.

It is important for Ireland that the directive is clear and unambiguous, not only for its future transposition into Irish law but to add to our credibility when discussing future regulatory co-operation with US regulators. We know that foreign direct investment is very important for Ireland. American companies seeking to invest in Ireland will be concerned that they are not overly burdened by overlapping regulation from both US and Irish regulators, so the directive needs to be clear and concise on future co-operative arrangements.

The directive deals with all companies requiring an audit. In most of Europe, including our near neighbours in Great Britain and Northern Ireland where the audit threshold is high, this generally applies only to companies with a turnover in excess of €7.5 million. In Ireland the audit threshold for turnover is only €1.5 million. Legislation developed with the capital markets in mind will therefore apply also to many very small companies in Ireland. We are concerned that the Government's stated intention to reduce the regulatory burden on small entities in an attempt to increase their competitiveness and encourage entrepreneurship will be undermined when the directive is transposed into Irish law, unless we move into line with Europe in relation to audit exemption thresholds.

Increasingly, audit rules and regulations are being developed for public companies and now being applied to SMEs without any regard for their relevance to that sector. The increasing weight of regulation will make the limited liability company a less attractive medium through which to do business, thus stifling enterprise, which will impact on the growth of Irish business and overall economic development.

The time is right for a fuller debate on the appropriate nature of an audit for the SME sector. It may be possible to develop a model which, while providing reassurance on the financial statements of the company, adds value to the company itself and hence encourages growth rather than stifles it. We would be happy to work with Government on this in the future. We strongly support the move to require the adoption of international standards on auditing as set out in the directive. However, the wording of the directive allows members states to carve out sections of the standards they do not like and add other sections which they prefer. This does not equate to international or even European harmonisation. We would strongly recommend that the Commission adopt the full suite of international standards as they exist at present and contribute actively to the development of new standards to ensure peculiar European issues are properly considered and reflected. We urge that only as a short-term measure. Where national law requires, a limited number of additional requirements could be included by individual member states.

The directive will rightly bring into law the requirement for auditors to consider any threats to their independence and where necessary introduce appropriate safeguards. We support the principle of auditor independence but believe the directive should contain high level principles with member states developing and/or approving codes on independence.

During the deliberations of the review group on auditing, the valuable role the auditor played in providing advice and support to the audit client was recognised, and as a result the RGA decided that it would not move to the introduction of wide prohibitions in relation to other services. The RGA determined that based on the public interest nature of the audit client, disclosure to and discussion with the audit committee was necessary before agreements to contract non-audit services from the auditor where entered into. Under the direction of the Irish Presidency, the text of the directive at that stage very much followed this approach, but things appear to have changed in more recent drafts.

If the directive results, as it could, in total prohibition of non-audit services, this would have a seriously detrimental effect on Irish companies, particularly SMEs, resulting in their needing two advisers with a consequent increase in costs. It would also undermine the local general accountancy practice with which members of the committee are no doubt familiar. We therefore support the text reverting to that developed during the Irish Presidency, dealing with auditor independence issues.

The new directive will require each member state to recognise non-resident EU recognised auditors as being eligible to audit Irish companies. The competent authority in a member state must recognise the auditor regardless of the legal structure through which the audit functions operate. In Europe, including Northern Ireland and Great Britain, it is possible and currently highly popular to establish the audit firm as a body corporate, either a limited liability company or a limited liability partnership, an LLP. The Companies Act 1990, however, prohibits the appointment of a body corporate as auditor. Unless the Companies Act is amended the result will be that Irish resident firms will not be able to avail of the body corporate option but non-Irish resident firms will, even in Ireland. This will place Irish firms at a considerable disadvantage to their European counterparts.

In conclusion I would like to touch on an area outside the subject matter of the directive, which we discussed with the committee when we appeared here last to discuss what is now the Companies Act 2003, namely the regulation of the term "accountant". When we last discussed the issue, some members of the committee were good enough to support our position. Indeed, in the Dáil the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment was supportive in principle of Opposition amendments during that debate. This revised directive imposes further regulation on our sector and IAASA itself will undoubtedly be placed on a statutory basis very soon next year. It is unfair that our members who are subject to this consumer protection regulation are not distinguished as accountants from those without qualifications or supervision who practice as such.

Is the witness referring to the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Michael Ahern?

He is in the same profession as the witness and we rely on his advice quite a lot. I am speaking from a party point of view, but impartially the committee relies on his advice.

My question relates to the audit turnover threshold. There is a big difference between the figures of €7.5 million and €1.5 million, and the lower figure represents a considerable disadvantage. Does Mr. O'Rourke support the turnover threshold for audit standing at €7.5 million?

We should at least be in line with our European counterparts.

If the figure is €7.5 million in Northern Ireland, our nearest neighbour and competitor, what is it in France, Germany and other major countries in the EU?

The figure is at that level or much higher.

So the witness would recommend——

That the threshold be increased. We already see situations where lawyers advise clients to incorporate their companies in Northern Ireland and operate as a branch in the Republic, thus avoiding the audit threshold problem.

A company with a turnover of only €1.5 million is very small nowadays. The witness approves of a minimum audit turnover threshold of €7.5 million.

The audit exemption limits have been noted, as have the thresholds. We are surprised that the witness is back before the committee so soon. He was here regularly during the year with regard to the Companies Bill.

The delegates have mentioned that we do not equate with international or even European harmonisation. They might elucidate a little on this and explain how we might do so and what is the general European practice, as members of the committee might be interested. The reason for including the section on auditor independence will be well known from high profile cases with which the delegates' organisation will now have become very familiar, to its cost. A doubt was expressed about the independence of auditing regarding the person at the other end of the room doing the tax returns and someone else either in that room or the next doing the audit. There must be some evidence of an arm's length approach, something well elucidated in the committee of which the delegates are members, which ultimately ended up in the IAASA. They might reassure the committee on the point they are trying to make, notwithstanding the concern regarding my point.

On auditor liability, "body corporate" status is over my head. We might be given an example of practice regarding the appointment of a body corporate as auditor, placing Irish firms at a disadvantage. I would appreciate elucidation on these points.

I welcome the high powered delegation. During the debate I was very keen. The original threshold was approximately €300,000 or something ridiculous like that. We must have harmonisation throughout Ireland. That is obvious. It is logical that it be accepted — I recommend that we request that the Minister amend that requirement — something might be done by order rather than by new legislation.

The language used is very interesting. As there are now 25 countries in the European Union, I am not surprised there has been confusion with language, words and meanings. It is absolutely vital from an American point of view that we have a direct relationship with United States auditing firms since so many of their companies are based here. We must ensure they feel comfortable with our system and that the language of no European directive damages our economy. The delegates are doing the country a service by highlighting this directive. When such directives are referred to the committee, we do not have the same backup as them.

I presume the delegates are in discussions with the Department. When I was in the Department, people were experts in this regard. I presume the delegates attend or support the Department regarding the submission to the European Commission. From my point of view, the submission is worthwhile and timely. Regarding the national interest, it is very important that we have extremely close harmonisation with the American system and that any regulations imposed by the European Union should be clear and concise. We should not be at a disadvantage through our neighbours in Northern Ireland who are our friends.

I shall take Deputy Hogan's points. Perhaps Ms Briers will speak about auditing standards.

Ms Heather Briers

We are keen to have a single set of standards, not only throughout Europe but, for the professions represented here, throughout Ireland. Unfortunately, we could, if the European Union situation were to prevail, have a different set of standards developed in the United Kingdom from those in Ireland. That is a cause of concern.

Our preference is that there be an international auditing assurance and standards board to develop international standards for the profession worldwide. We desire those standards to be recommended for adoption by the European Commission rather than it recommend general adoption but then allow each member state to decide which sections they like and would like to apply. That will not lead to a single common set of standards. It could mean a different set in each of the 25 member states.

We are concerned that we have several multinational companies here with subsidiaries in different countries. They would like to have an audit conducted on the basis of standards common worldwide rather than have to apply different standards to work within their subsidiaries regarding, for example, their holding companies. That is why having one common set of standards without every country being allowed to adapt them is important to us.

The issue of audit independence was debated in full in the review group on auditing, RGA, which only had two or three accountants among its 17 members. There are benefits and disadvantages to such services. For example, I understand Revenue is happy for its auditors to do tax work, since it means it gets a proper and full set of figures and that people who know the business inside-out provide information on tax for it, except when it comes to extreme tax planning. In the normal course of events, Revenue is happy to have the auditor do tax work. This issue was debated at the RGA, in the United Kingdom and the United States, and nowhere has there been a decision that, on balance, non-audit services should be prohibited. The language used in the directive is fuzzy but it could be interpreted as leading to that position. We feel the RGA has the right answer, something shown in other debates, but this one seems to be going in the wrong direction in that regard.

Mr. Murtagh might comment on audit liability.

Mr. Brendan Murtagh

The position is that auditors may not incorporate. They have no protection regarding their liability and are effectively operating on an unlimited basis. That is not the same for our European counterparts, which means Irish auditors are now carrying a risk that others are not. It is, therefore, very attractive for people to come to Ireland from another jurisdiction.

In response to Senator Leyden's question, we can confirm that we are in discussions with the Department. It worked very well. For example, during the Irish Presidency there was a great deal of interaction between the Department and us on this technical area and when the directive left the Irish Presidency, it was in good shape. It was very practical and offered business-oriented support for the kinds of objectives about which members have spoken but now it has been damaged and is no longer sensible for business arrangements or economic development. However, we are in discussions with the Department.

Our new Commissioner may be able to do something.

We understand he is taking an interest in this issue and has been speaking to some of the Governments which seem to have different views. We are hopeful he will have a good effect.

We are fortunate to have such an experienced person there.

I, too, welcome representatives of the auditing profession back to the committee. It gives a fillip to one's step in the morning when one knows one is coming to discuss such a subject. One has motivation. I will limit myself to general questions, since I am not particularly sure we are discussing this issue at the right time.

I understand the directive went before Council yesterday. I do not know what the outcome of that discussion was. As it is a matter for co-decision — if the Council signed off on it yesterday — it will go to the European Parliament. It is now beyond the committee's remit to have an impact. How do the delegates operate with the Council? What relationship do they have with the Department which will drive the Council input? Do they relate to the European Parliament? Regarding European directives, we might examine in general terms how we might harmonise our approach with the Parliament more effectively than hitherto.

The delegates have explained to my greater satisfaction the issue of auditor independence. I was not sure what non-audit services might be provided. They mentioned tax work. Was there anything else? What other issues are involved? Are there tasks of which we should be aware that might be carried out by auditors?

On the two specific issues raised with the committee, I am interested in members talking about the exemption thresholds for auditing, on which we had a very detailed discussion during the passage of the Companies (Auditing and Accounting) Act 2003. Within the last 12 months my side of the House suggested much higher exemption limits but was defeated by the Government. It is, therefore, disingenuous of people to say they are all in favour; the merry-go-round continues. If we are talking about harmonisation, we should do something about it.

It is surprising the business focus of the directive has diminished under the Dutch Presidency. My experience is that the Dutch, above all people, are traders and understand the business of business better than most. It would surprise me that the business focus of this directive would be lessened under their stewardship.

I have a particular question. Ms Briers, in her submission, mentioned the worldwide standard. Do such standards exist and is there a draft text the committee could look at in terms of an accepted international standard? Who might have drawn it up and what is the input of the Irish professional bodies?

My last comment is concerns the name "accountant". As we try by various enactments to hold business to account, in a much more onerous and personal way on company directors, for example, the issue of audit becomes more important. Therefore the importance of the selection process of those who consider themselves to be accountants becomes all the more important. It would be an important matter for us to revisit. We tried again during the passing of the companies Bill to have that matter addressed. More than simply a title is involved. There is security in knowing that people who hold themselves to be accountants have the qualifications, the certifications and the supports to be such.

Deputy Howlin touched on the two points I wanted to raise. The first is about the qualifications of an accountant. I thought, for example, that a non-qualified accountant could not do an audit. Obviously that is some type of distinction. If a further distinction needs to be made, I would be interested to hear how that might be regulated.

The other matter touched on by Deputy Howlin is about trying to harmonise regulations. It would be helpful to the committee, or to me at any rate, if the accounting bodies could indicate where they find an overlap between US regulations and our own.

On Deputy Howlin's question, my understanding is that it was passed by the Council yesterday. I believe the Deputy is correct in that it now goes to the European Parliament and the only way in which changes may be made is if it is agreed in Parliament. I believe that is the process.

Or rejected in Parliament——

Or rejected in Parliament, yes.

——and going back to the Council.

Yes. It is somewhat late in the process. We did work with the Department of Finance and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

As regards non-audit services the framework is well-established. An international framework exists, which is reflected in the US and the UK in terms of certain matters which are banned and which everybody accepts auditors should not do. For example, an auditor may not act as a financial director one day and audit himself or herself on the next. Nor can they implement new IT or accounting systems, etc. There is a range of matters which auditors should not do. The range of matters that are central to the role of auditors on top of their statutory auditing functions include, for example, stock exchange reporting as well as the monitoring of IDA grants, etc. There are various matters which are close to the auditing function and then there are other services which may be provided so long as they are sensible and appropriate safeguards are in place. A detailed code sets out the type of safeguards that may be put in place for other services. A range of initiatives may be undertaken.

The worldwide standards are promulgated by the International Federation of Accounting Bodies, IFAC, which has a subsidiary called the International Auditing and Assurance Standards Board, the IAASB, which comprises a federation of international accounting boards. They want an oversight body, as we do, and have put in place what is called the Public Interests Oversight Board, PIOB. There are representatives on that from the Public Company Accounting Oversight Board, PCAOB——

How do accountants get around them all? They are worse than county councillors.

There are international representatives, from the Commission of the Stock Exchange, central bankers, PCAOB, the European Commission, etc.

They are obviously representative of every country.

It is an international oversight mechanism. There is a process which has been drawn up by the experts, but it is overseen by public interest bodies to ensure that it is being done properly. Ireland is a full member of IFAC and we are active participants. Two of our members are chairmen of sub-committees, one on ethics and the other on education. Irish chartered accountants are chairmen of worldwide committees in this regard. The chairman of the IAASB is a British chartered accountant.

Where is it based?

IFAC is based in New York.

Are the IFAC standards recognised worldwide?

They are. The European Commission has said it will implement them, while it is still fine-tuning the directive in this respect. Nonetheless, the directive recognises them and the EC wants to use them, but then it starts to mess about with them and that is of concern to us. They are used throughout the world. In Australia, East Africa and other countries IFAC is the body which is recognised.

There is an issue in the United States, in that the USA always wants to do its own thing. Therefore, the PCAOB is drawing up its own standards. The PCAOB is an observer as regards international standards and vice versa. Therefore, it is trying to harmonise the position.

On the use of the title "accountant" by non-accountants, I will refer the committee to my colleague, Mr. Eamon Siggins.

Mr. Eamon Siggins

I will respond to the queries raised by Deputies Brendan Howlin and Tony Dempsey regarding the use of the title "accountant". The committee is aware that the Minister of State with responsibility for trade and commerce, Deputy Michael Ahern, who is a member of our own institute, requested the Irish Auditing and Accounting Supervisory Authority, IAASA, to come up with a solution, as the first item on its agenda of business. Unfortunately, IAASA has not yet been statutorily established by the Minister of State. However, it might interest Deputy Tony Dempsey and other members of the committee to learn that there is sufficient confusion in the marketplace that the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement has a series of prosecutions which have been completed at this stage in terms of individuals who, although they were not entitled to audit the accounts of limited companies, did so act, as auditors. Even though the term "auditor" will mean something to every member of the committee, we say that there are unscrupulous individuals in the marketplace who will act as accountants and, if the opportunity arises, will sign off on an audit report. They do not possess the requisite standards of education and training or compliance requirements with a professional body.

If we were to increase the threshold limit, which I hope we will do, then small companies will still need accountants to advise them and prepare their submissions to the Revenue Commissioners. It would be helpful if people involved in that process, even though they are not auditing, were supervised and would adhere to quality standards. That is what I ask our profession to provide. People who are not qualified and without supervision can do whatever they want and this can be damaging, especially if the threshold is increased.

The committee should be familiar with this, but just to short-circuit it for us, will Mr. O'Rourke say whether an amendment to the Act is required or a ministerial order?

To increase the threshold?

It is a ministerial order.

We certainly can agree to that this morning and make a strong recommendation for the Minister to consider it.

It is important that a regime is put in place for small companies because the Revenue Commissions and the Companies Registration Office will be anxious that there be standards in place to which their accounts should adhere to. By taking away the audit from small companies which has been built up as a major issue for larger enterprises, I believe some other professional regime needs to be in place in order that quality financial statements are provided for small concerns, and we will work on that.

I thank Mr. O'Rourke and his delegation.

Ms Briers

A question which Deputy Tony Dempsey raised related to the possible overlap between the regulations of the US and Ireland. At present there is a degree of overlap in that the rules of the PCAOB require it to have an oversight function of auditors, regardless of where these may be located, as regards SEC registrants or major subsidiaries thereof. They now have a worldwide remit. The proposals within the directive are for a similar third country requirement for all of the member states, obviously with the Americans in mind, with any state worldwide. We are concerned that the depths of requirements within this directive with regard to the assessment to be done on the base qualifications of American auditors will prove to be an onerous burden on all of the member states.

We did not bring it up today at this meeting, but we are aware that this is one of the areas about which the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is particularly concerned since it will have the responsibility for conducting the assessment of US auditors, unless a sensible arrangement may be arrived at regarding recognition of the regulatory and oversight structures in both countries. Representatives of the PCAOB have met twice with officials of the Department in Ireland along with members of the profession in order to determine a sensible approach for the future, and obviate the risk of an extreme regulatory burden on the companies concerned and their auditors.

I thank Ms Briers. I also thank Mr. O'Rourke and the delegation for the very informative briefing on this particular topic. We can assure the delegation of our full support regarding the threshold which we can identify as an immediate threat to the interests of business. The committee will use all its influence with the Minister to ensure that this matter is addressed as speedily as possible. I look forward to assisting the committee for the remaining life of the Government and I thank the witnesses for attending this morning.

We hope to have the Minister for Environment, Heritage and Local Government next Wednesday at 9.30 a.m.

What about Tuesday evening?

Is Tuesday evening the Deputy's second choice?

Tuesday evening is for the social function.

The Chairman issued an invitation.

That is on the social side. Thank you very much for——

For reminding you.

We discussed that prior to the Deputy's arrival.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.30 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 15 December 2004.

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