I welcome the Minister for Transport, Deputy Cullen, and the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy Callely, who are here to assist us in our examination of the reform of the Irish insurance market. I also welcome back our consultants, Mr. Myles O'Reilly and Ms Linda Morris, who are assisting us with the third interim report. I ask the Minister to make his submission, following which we will hear from the Minister of State. As I understand some members wish to be in other parts of the Houses by 10.30 a.m., we will take questions immediately after presentations.
Insurance Market Reform: Ministerial Presentations.
I am delighted to have been invited to this committee. While the issues I address will be primarily concerned with road safety, they are also relevant to insurance matters. However, I will leave the insurance elements to the Minister of State, Deputy Callely.
I thank the committee for providing me with the opportunity to discuss issues of road safety. I would like to outline the current road safety situation and the progress achieved to date. The objectives of our first strategy from 1998 to 2003 were achieved and we are now faced with the tighter timeframe of 2004 to 2006. The primary outcome of that strategy will be the reduction in the numbers of deaths to 300 per year, on which a lot of progress has already been made in recent years. However, while average figures for the years since 1998 have represented improvements on previous years, this year's challenge continues to grow.
A traffic corps has been established by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the roll-out of which is a key element in making people aware of road safety and behaving according to the rules of the road. The metrification of speed limits has been successfully introduced throughout the country. I made specific provision to give local authorities strong powers to examine speed limits within their jurisdictions, particularly near schools. As a result of discussions with a different committee, I added another power to allow local councillors to discuss changes in speed limits with people in their areas.
Penalty points had positive effects when they were first introduced. We are now ready to apply penalty points to additional offences and discussions are ongoing among my Department, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Garda Síochána in this regard. Hopefully, the system will shortly be ready for this expansion.
The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and I are bringing forward legislation for privately operated speed cameras. As far as we are concerned, there can be no connection between the operation of and remuneration for speed cameras if confidence is to be upheld among the public.
Random breath testing has proven to be a thorny issue. Following discussions at a previous committee meeting, I will meet with party spokespersons tomorrow to discuss this matter. While this issue can play an important part, it is also a difficult one to address. Our legal advice is that a balance must be struck between civil liberties and proportionality.
A road safety authority will be provided for in the Driver Testing and Standards Authority Bill 2004 and will be responsible for all elements of road safety, including driver licensing and testing, driver errors and rest periods including tachographs, working time directives for mobile workers in road transport, bus and lorry driver vocational training and the road responsibilities of the National Safety Council. Responsibilities which are currently scattered, such as the compilation by the NRA and local authorities of road safety statistics, will be amalgamated within one body.
I will be happy to answer any questions members of the committee may wish to ask.
I thank the committee for its invitation to attend today. I have an appreciation of the work of this committee, having been its Chairman for a number of years.
I hope to be here as long as the Minister of State.
The Chairman should keep up the good work.
The Minister of State is lucky to be here after last night's events in his constituency.
The Minister of State without interruption.
My opening remarks have been circulated to members so I will not read them. My section of the Department is now leading policy and legislation on the availability and cost of motor insurance and related interdepartmental co-ordination. In reality we adopted this role in January 2005 following the Motor Insurance Advisory Board's second report. The Tánaiste's insurance reform programme has had a significant impact on motor insurance. I should highlight the introduction of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board, the Civil Liability and Courts Act 2004, penalty points and work practice changes in the insurance industry. I congratulate the Irish Insurance Federation on establishing the anti-fraud helpline and its associated advertising campaign.
This committee's second report called for a return to 1999 motor insurance prices, which I support. I keep in regular contact with all the motor insurance companies. I have met all the senior executives one-to-one and collectively and they believe their premia are at that level in real terms. This shows the insurance reform programme is working and that it is important we continue to keep our eye on the ball. I will continue to meet with motor insurance senior executives and with the IIF. I have indicated to the industry that I have an open-door policy. Therefore, my Department can react as quickly as possible to ongoing issues.
We have seen the impact of the PIAB on the number of claims, the speed with which they are resolved and the reduced costs. I worked with the insurance industry in the early stages of my career and I know how it works regarding premia and underwriting costs. It may take time for the benefits of the PIAB to reach the consumer but I will press the companies to pass them on as quickly as possible. My Department will keep a close eye on costs. I draw members' attention to the top of page 5 of my script. I am considering establishing a follow-up to reinforce the work of the MIAB to evaluate and monitor developments in the insurance industry. I will work with my officials to make an announcement on that later this year or early next year.
There is only so much the Government, the Minister for Transport, this committee or I can do. Each person has a responsibility to drive safely, be mindful of other road users and to be safety conscious at all times. As Eddie Shaw pointed out a few weeks ago, 93% of collisions are caused by human error, so by taking care we can reduce the chance of being involved in an accident. As reduced accidents will reduce insurance premia, everyone wins twice.
My Department will continue to work to ensure that the benefits of insurance reform are felt by all and I am happy to respond to any questions.
I thank the Minister. Since it convened in 2002 the committee has treated motor insurance as its most important issue and its biggest challenge. Premia were then the second most expensive cost on the balance sheet of every company trying to survive. On metrification, we see dual carriageways that still have 30 mph and 40 mph speed limit signs. Could the Department write to the local authorities or the NRA, whichever is responsible for this, and point out that this requires urgent attention? It is nonsense for a car to travel at 30 mph on a dual carriageway or three-lane road. There is enough frustration on the roads with motorists having to sit in their cars for four hours daily, and I speak from personal experience. Something must be done.
Penalty points were an outstanding success for the first six months but because people think nobody monitors the points, drivers do not fear them. We would like to hear more on how penalty points are monitored, particularly coming up to Christmas. The Garda Síochána introduces special regulations for Christmas to minimise accidents and ensure the smooth running of transport but we want to hear more about penalty points.
I spoke to a member of the insurance industry yesterday and I understand the industry hopes to reduce premia to 1998 prices, which is a tribute to all concerned. I hope this committee's hard work in taking on this challenge will be appreciated. Would the Minister of State allocate a small portion of the Department's budget to a television advertisement encouraging the consumer to shop around?
We cannot ask the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, to advertise. One cannot open a paper without him falling out at us.
When one is young one can do all those things. From my experience at my clinics, consumers are not confident at shopping around, and as a result they miss out on value for money. The good work done by Departments, this committee, the Government and the insurance industry is lost on consumers who do not shop around. There is scope for a reduction in the €1 billion profit in the industry. Neither the Minister nor the Minister of State addressed public liability or employer liability.
The Chairman is correct on the first issue. It is the responsibility of local authorities and I have told them to exercise this power. Local councillors are reluctant to take on this responsibility. The Oireachtas is often accused of taking powers from local authorities but they must use the powers they have. They need the consent of the NRA to do this on primary roads but it is their call.
On foot of a recommendation from the NRA?
Yes. They can take advice but it is effectively the local authorities' call. There is much frustration around the country where the speed limits on many good new dual carriageways appear not to match what the roads are capable of. I reiterate that point here this morning.
I agree that penalty points had an immediate effect for everybody to see, but this is an enforcement issue which my colleague will explain. The roll-out of the traffic corps will bring a helpful visibility to the issue. I hope to add more penalty points to the system, which I understand will be ready by 1 April, and I urge the adoption of additional points in advance of that date. We have everything in place to facilitate this.
On further reductions to premia, I am led, as is the Chairman, by the industry which is satisfied there may be further room for sweating the existing system to see what is possible. I concur with the Chairman's view on shopping around. Those I have interacted with have intimated to me that by shopping around one can get a better insurance premium. People must now receive a renewal notice four weeks in advance of the renewal date, setting out their status with regard to no claims bonuses and giving them an opportunity to shop around.
As I indicated to Deputy Howlin, the DTO undertook an advertising campaign on Operation Freeflow. In this case the advertising regulator should undertake any advertising on the subject of shopping around. Hopefully this committee will relay that after this morning's meeting.
I draw the Chairman's attention to the fact that the public liability issue still rests with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.
Is that the case for employer's liability?
Yes.
I thank the Minister and Minister of State for attending and bringing with them such senior people, which underscores the importance of the work. Clearly nobody is minding the shop.
Although this committee embarked on an insurance review, which was its remit, all of us have focused on road safety because the carnage on our roads is such a stark issue for us all. We all welcomed the penalty points system introduced by the Minister's predecessor but it was like the boy crying wolf. Serious criticism has been levelled at the announcement and implementation of the penalty points system for its inability to be properly enforced. The assistant commissioner has told us the Garda still uses manual systems and people who initially changed their behaviour have now reverted to bad behaviour because they believe there are no consequences in terms of the likelihood of being caught. How does the Minister propose to reinstate the system to give it teeth? The Government has diminished its impact and there is a strong perception, backed up by the figures for accidents and casualties, that it is a sham, a word which has been used about the initiative by senior people in the industry.
The traffic corps is not directly in the Minister's remit but he mentioned it. The assistant commissioner came before the committee to say there are fewer than 30 additional gardaí in the traffic corps for 2005. It has not been built up as quickly or to the level we would have liked.
Mr. Eddie Shaw made a compelling case to this committee that in order to implement the cross-departmental range of policies that will impact on road safety and reduce deaths, we need one driver of the strategy, which seems to be lacking. In France, President Chirac took charge of it and had a dramatic impact as a result. Does the Minister see any merit in returning to Cabinet to ask the Taoiseach or some other Minister to take this on and drive it so that it is given the political leadership necessary to pull all the strands together in a coherent and open way?
The Minister will be aware that in the first report of this committee we came out against the privatisation of cameras because we did not want to repeat the experience of the privatisation of clamping, which was a profit-making measure rather than one related to road safety. We do not want cameras on the type of motorways the Minister referred to where people are like fish in a barrel. We want them where there are accidents and where people abuse a justified speed limit. I fear privatisation will not achieve that and am dismayed by the fact that the Minister says he is developing new legislation to that effect. Can we have a specific date when cameras will be operational on a widespread basis?
I will make a constituency observation on the speed level review announced by the Minister's predecessor. When I drive from this building to Wexford I join the motorway at the Loughlinstown roundabout where the speed limit is 120 km/h. At the end of that stretch there is a speed limit of 100 km/h for approximately one kilometre. Then it drops to 60 km/h, then 100 km/h and, at the Glen of the Downs, down to 80 km/h and back again to 100 km/h. There are six changes in approximately 8 km, but the road looks identical for the whole of that journey. It does not make sense. The 80 km/h speed limit in the Glen of the Downs lasts for approximately 0.5 km, which seems meaningless. If it were enforced penalty points would certainly increase because people have to be constantly alert for the changing profiles. I ask the Minister to review that situation with a view to asking local authorities to adopt a consistent approach.
It has been put to us, and I have seen it for myself, that local authorities impose 40 km/h speed limits well beyond the boundaries of villages and towns in order to be able to grant planning permission because planning permission is dependent on being within a speed limit boundary. I propose coherence and rationality on speed limits.
One of the key reasons for setting up the RSA is to address precisely the suggestion by Mr. Eddie Shaw and this committee that there should be a centralised body to deal with road safety.
I will come to the second point made, which related to political will. I have no doubt the political will exists within the Government, and it is certainly there with my colleagues and I to get these changes made. We should not forget that the reduction in road deaths in the past few years is significant. The penalty points system has worked and continues to do so. Changes in observation and the alertness of people to road safety and behaviour on the road has improved substantially. It has not improved to a point where we would all be more satisfied that we have an acceptable number of road deaths, which is a phrase I dislike using. In my view there is no such thing as an acceptable number of deaths. The best practice average would see the number of road deaths at approximately 300 per year, and this is our objective for the end of 2006.
A range of measures have been put in place to achieve this target. Some are working extremely well. Some of the issues mentioned on the enforcement side are being worked on very hard by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell. There are 531 gardaí allocated to the traffic corps, and by the year's end, this number will rise to 563. This will rise over the next three years to 1,200.
That is an addition of just over 30 for this year.
I am just stating the facts about the traffic corps.
They are not good enough.
Another point made related to the location of speed cameras around the country.I previously emphasised in every public forum which gave me an opportunity that I do not wish to see speed cameras only in obvious places, such as dual carriageways and motorways. Those roads are the safest in the country, and the accident rate on them is mainly low. We should have speed cameras on roads with blackspots and where real carnage is taking place. The cameras should be highly visible and people should be very aware of their presence. This causes people to slow down, which is part of the objective of getting people to drive carefully while observing the conditions in which they are driving.
With regard to local authorities and their setting of speed limits, these are designed specifically for safety. The local authority members are best placed to bring local knowledge on roads to bear, and it would be wrong for me to legislate centrally to get the speed limits correct. This is the manner in which speed limits should be set. I agree to some degree that having eight or nine speed changes in seven or eight kilometres of road which looks much the same is a nonsense. A more even and smooth operation of the system is required. It disheartens people, who may wonder if such speed limits make any sense when they see them placed in such a way.
I urge all local authorities to examine the speed limit issue in a more general way within their own areas. The authorities have a good power to take action around schools, both in terms of making vehicles slow down through structural changes and putting in specifically low speed limits. All parents would accept very low speed limits around schools. Local authorities could demonstrate publicly their interest in road safety by taking on board such a challenge.
That covers those points.
I welcome the Minister and Minister of State before the joint committee. I take this opportunity to congratulate the Minister on the publication recently of the transport plan. The joint committee was told recently that the amount of cars and lorries in this country has doubled in the past few years. Therefore, we need better roads, and as the Minister himself stated, dual carriageways are the safest. This transport plan, when rolled out, will lead to a safer country to drive in.
I welcome the opening of the western rail corridor, which is important to us in the west.
It will not be open for approximately ten years.
: It is the Deputy's constituency that will benefit.
(Interruptions).
Deputy Callanan without interruption.
I have been put off track. Training for the driving test and lessons on road safety, including drink-driving issues, should be included in the secondary school curriculum. We should begin informing people when they are young and let them know the problems out there when driving a car. This is important.
Many accidents take place late at night, but the same level of policing does not appear present at this time. People may feel they are able to drive faster at such times because of a lack of policing. Something must be done about this, as many young people are killed very late at night, perhaps at 3 a.m. or 4 a.m. in many cases. This is sad, and these hours should be policed as well as the daylight hours.
What links with Northern Ireland exist with regard to controlling speed? If a driver from Northern Ireland is travelling in this country, can he or she be prosecuted for speeding offences? We should also make county councils in rural areas trim verges, as this action makes roads safer.
I thank the Deputy for his comments on Transport 21. The western rail corridor is an important element of the interconnectivity required in the west, along with the gateways and hubs. The road and rail corridor in the west will achieve a beneficial outcome for economic and social development.
I agree with the Deputy on the school curriculum. The matter has come up again recently of people being made aware at a younger age of road safety responsibilities and linking this to the system of being prepared before a driving test, having some educational understanding in the background. I will take this up with the Department of the Education and Science. The issue was examined previously and it was thought that such a programme would not fit into the school curriculum and that it should be approached differently.
Perhaps it may fit into a transition year programme.
It could be more formalised, and it would be helpful.
Although we often speak of the appalling carnage late at night on roads, we must be straight about the issue. Drink, drugs and speed are undoubtedly key factors in the matter. There is much evidence to support this view. No laws in the world will make a difference unless people have a significant shift in their mindset and cultural attitude to drink driving and drugs. There will be no fundamental change, which is required, until this comes about. We must send the message, to young people in particular, that drink or drugs cannot be taken when driving, and one cannot drive over the speed limits. A car or motorbike can be a lethal weapon. Families throughout the country have been affected by tragedy because of what happens on the roads.
As we face into the Christmas period, it is important to reinforce this message. We appeal strongly to young people not to drink or take drugs if they intend to drive. If they take a vehicle on the road, be it a motorbike or car, the speed limit should be observed and they should drive with great care. The Christmas period should be enjoyed rather than being tinged with great sadness and tragedy for families.
Before I call Deputy Hogan I have a question on the speed issue. There are 365,000 provisional licences, but has the Department ever considered putting a speed governor of 50 km/h, for example, on cars driven by people with provisional licences?
That probably could not be done, as two or three people may be using the same car. It would be very difficult or almost impossible. I could not see it working in practical terms. I understand the idea but in most families I observe the mother's car is driven by the mother and is often driven by the son or daughter learning to drive, while the brother-in-law also drives it and the father drives it sometimes.
All three could have provisional licences.
I am not saying they do but there would be a mixture. There are issues about young people getting licences, how they get a licence and what they might be qualified to do on the road, which is another way of approaching it.
I thank the Minister and Minister of State for their attendance and congratulate the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, on his freeflow idea for Christmas which I hope goes well.
It was not he who introduced it.
The Deputy should leave the man alone.
I introduced it as Minister for the Environment and Local Government.
The compliments of the season to the Deputy for doing it.
(Interruptions).
Deputy Hogan without interruption.
I am praising the man.
That is all praise for the next Government.
That might suit Deputy McHugh.
Deputy Hogan without interruption, please.
Deputy McHugh is becoming more non-political, so to speak. The Minister of State, Deputy Callely, can say the surveys have worked well in terms of helping people to understand where they can get cheaper insurance. I ask him to look at Fine Gael legislation that was voted down a year ago for naming and shaming those who charge excessive prices. Recently, in the case of mortgages we saw a huge difference in the products on offer, the price range and the choice within particular companies. Naming and shaming people, given the most extensive information in surveys, is a good way to proceed and perhaps the national consumer agency would take this role on board. Whenever it is formed, it should be included as part of its obligations.
I would point out to the Minister, Deputy Cullen, the reason we are present is not for insurance reasons but because Eddie Shaw was quite scathing of the implementation of much of our policy at national level. He suggested we lacked joined-up thinking in the area of road safety. I understand that is the Minister's motivation in setting up the road safety authority. It is a frustrating experience all round to implement some of the issues we would like to see implemented.
How many cameras are in operation under the speed camera programme? What was the original number that was to be in place within a year? Is it appropriate to privatise the sensitive issue of the speed camera programme? I have mixed feelings about it. How can we guarantee it is not open to abuse? On the question of speeding and signage, the Minister should send a circular to local authorities outlining their role in this matter.
We will do it again.
It would be worthwhile because there does not appear to be a proactive programme on the part of local authorities to understand their role in that regard. I refer to the Chairman's point about speed restrictions for certain categories of driver. The biggest issue in most urban areas is boy racers and motorcycles but especially boy racers and their souped-up Honda Civics. We must examine a way in which we can put governors on those cars for drivers under the age of 21. One insurance company, Hibernian, has a training programme which includes a governor for speed restrictions on a car in return for which it gives a reduced premium. There is an incentive to do it and there is no cost to the State because insurance companies would be glad to quote where restrictions on speeding are put in place. Perhaps the Minister would re-examine that area. Will the Minister outline in detail some of the problems with random breath testing?
There is a 300% load on the premium with Hibernian but it is eliminated if one does the course.
On the issue of speeding cameras I take a similar view. The provision of the camera service has nothing to do with the primary function of the Garda Síochána which is law enforcement. Those who provide the cameras have nothing to do with law enforcement. They are simply providing the service. Therefore, there is no linkage between the cameras and income or any issue to do with law enforcement as the primary role of the Garda Síochána. It is simply about getting a private company to provide the service and it can locate them throughout the country, obviously in the context of Garda knowledge of accident black spots.
Who would read the results?
The Garda Síochána. We are all ad idem on this. It is an important issue and we need to be clear on what we are doing. There is cross-party agreement on what we are trying to do in this area.
Deputy Hogan asked the number of speed cameras in operation. That is a matter for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I do not have that information with me.
Perhaps the Minister would find out and send the committee a note.
There are issues around——
The Minister's principal officer has the information.
I am surprised the Minister does not know the answer to that question. I think he knows it.
It is not right in front of me here. I will get the information. Do not worry about it.
Allow the Minister to respond.
On the issue of getting a licence, I hope to get a result shortly on the proposal put to the driver testers for clearing the backlog. When we get beyond that point, there are issues with the provisional licence for young people. I have strong views on the training required. An understanding of the rules of the road should be required before people get on to the road. That issue needs to be resolved.
On the issue of road safety and the insurance industry, it is important to point out that the insurance industry is a highly profitable area and it is dominated by five companies. In my view they could do much more to reduce premiums and they should. When measured against international norms, they have more space in which to offer much better packages to people and insurance premiums could be much cheaper than at present.
I welcome the Minister, Deputy Cullen, and the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, to the joint committee. It is great that both are attending together. If we want good driving, we must educate people to drive. Lack of education is one of our major problems.
Signage is another problem. I shall refer to a specific road about which I have asked in the Dáil, namely, the road from the Portlaoise bypass, a part of which has remained unfinished for the past five, six or perhaps seven years. The merging side for Cork has not been completed. One must take the line to Tullamore on the other side. I would like to have a report on why that job is not complete. It is a main artery road for the Cork side.
I have also asked that the signage be improved. Many who drive that road complain to me that they shoot on for Limerick rather than merge into the Cork line or the Tullamore line to take them to Cork. If the signage could be moved further back towards Dublin, it would help to improve the position. There may have been no accidents there but something will happen some day. I raised this issue in the presence of the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, in the Dáil and he undertook to come back to me.
A speed limit of 60 mph for trucks is too high given the volume of traffic on the roads. That is the same speed limit for motor cars. There should be some restriction on trucks for overtaking. On the dual carriageways trucks travel side by side. I admire the Garda traffic corps which does an excellent job and must use discretion with motorists. On a particular day I saw a member of the traffic corps looking in amazement at two trucks driving side by side on the dual carriageway and there was nothing they could do about it because it was perfectly legal. That is an area that will have to be examined. I was in Dublin last weekend and while travelling the Newbridge bypass there were two trucks in front of me, both driving at the same speed, but one would not let the other pass. That is happening on level roads. If one of these trucks is fully laden and the other is not, they will pass each other on a level stretch of road but if they are on a hill, that is another matter.
Random breath testing is something on which I have questions. We have random breath testing. If there is an accident on the road or a doubt on the part of gardaí, they can insist on or make somebody aware that they have to take a breath test. Further talk about this is a load of hype and nonsense.
The other problem on the roads is the fact that we do not close the pubs on time any more. Publicans are not policed and pubs are open all hours of the day and night. I travel the length and breadth of my constituency in County Cork, and it is a large county. I was in Bantry last Friday night and on the journey home I could see what was happening on the streets in Bandon and all the other towns where discos were closing down.
On the question of gardaí following motorists, that would not be a problem if the pubs were closed on time. Publicans should obey the law. They are to blame. We are all aware of the late-night pubs. Young people go into pubs with the intention of going home and behaving themselves but when they come out of the pub at 2 a.m. or3 a.m. they have something else in their head. There might be a good-looking female to be found somewhere or perhaps several of them — I would not know — and they drive on at speed. The Garda Commissioner gave us figures to the effect that seven out of every eight people killed on the roads are between the ages of 18 and 25. If that figure is right, and I believe it is, it sends out a loud and clear message. The Commissioner was very helpful.
The Personal Injuries Assessment Board has been a success in reducing costs for the legal profession but it has not reduced costs in terms of claims. We have been talking about those claims for years. While I cannot discuss here the public liability and employer's liability aspect on the traffic side, the board is working on the precedent of previous claims and we are well aware that many of those claims are over the top. Nothing has changed other than the fact that costs have reduced on the legal professional side. That is the issue and it must be addressed in an even-handed way. There is no point in the Minister throwing his hands in the air and saying he is doing a great job because he has chastised the legal profession. We must examine the claims aspect because our claims are exorbitant vis-à-vis those in Europe. The Irish insurance industry works in a very difficult environment vis-à-vis other countries in Europe.
I do not want to delay the committee because I know other members want to put questions. I will conclude on those few points.
Does the Minister's principal officer have the figures for the number of cameras that are working?
The Deputy will appreciate that Deputy O'Keeffe's question will have to be answered first. I am trying to accommodate all members——
I will ask my questions——
Deputy Lynch's questions can be merged with mine.
That is good co-operation from the rebel county.
I want to raise one or two other issues. The point Deputy O'Keeffe made about road safety is probably the most salient one. We all know about speed, blackspots, accidents late at night, the effect of alcohol and so on, but the starkest statistic is that it is young men of a particular age who are involved in major accidents. That is the area on which we must concentrate our efforts.
When Eddie Shaw appeared before the committee he talked about the road safety advertisements on television. They are so effective I find them difficult to watch, particularly the one with the young people in the car with the music blaring. I find it difficult to watch those clips but they are very effective.
The 1% levy on insurance, which I believe was introduced to bale out PMPA all those years ago, is still in place. Why can that not be diverted to the specific area of road safety campaigns? If there is a difficulty with funding, and I have no reason to doubt Mr. Shaw's presentation, that is an area to which people would not object money being allocated but it should be very specific. None of us is immune to road accidents. One can drive perfectly safely but we have no control over the person driving the car in the other direction.
On the backlog of driving tests, I thought the Minister said in early summer that he would have that problem sorted by September. There is a gentleman in my constituency — the Minister probably met him on several occasions — who is very anxious about this issue but it is a major problem. There is still a huge backlog and it goes back to the notion of who should be on the road with whom, whether they should be able to exceed speed limits and so on, and whether they are qualified to be on the road in the first place.
The Minister is also responsible for rail transport. A question that has been raised continually with me recently concerns the train from Cork to Dublin, for instance, which is a very good service. The train is usually packed with people, which is an indication of the excellence of the service, and it is about to be improved further. However, if someone wants to travel a single journey to Dublin, why do they have to pay the return fare?
That is not particularly related to the issues we are discussing but we will ask the Minister to respond.
The Minister must set up the road safety authority as quickly as possible. That should be the driving force in terms of all aspects of road safety because it is clear something needs to be done. The Minister may tell us that 300 is the target figure, although I agree with him that there is no acceptable figure when it comes to road deaths. The tragedy of six or seven people being killed on our roads every weekend is outrageous.
I welcome the dynamic duo to the committee, the Minister, Deputy Cullen, and the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, and congratulate them on their work, particularly on Transport 21 which is a magnificent plan. The Ministers deserve credit for the way it was put together. The railway for the west is a breakthrough and has enormous implications for the region. I compliment both Ministers on it.
I am also delighted that I am present with the third socialist, Deputy Martin Brady, who was outed at the weekend. They say he is the third socialist in Leinster House. Deputy Brady is definitely a socialist, like all those in the Fianna Fáil Party.
On the aspiration to reduce the number of deaths on our roads to 300 per year, my aspiration is to eliminate all road deaths if possible.
(Interruptions).
I am making the point.
I know but the Minister made the same point.
The aspiration should be for zero tolerance in terms of road deaths. Three hundred is equal to the number of people killed in Northern Ireland in three years — 3,000 over 30 years. The number is so horrific that something must be done.
A councillor in my constituency, John Cummins, from Boyle made a proposal on the problem of leaving cars for sale at dangerous junctions. On the way to Delphi two weeks ago I saw a boat for sale that had been left on a junction. It is all very well selling something on one's own property but sales spots are being taken up at crucial road junctions and they deflect people's attention, if only for a second, from the road as they look at the car or boat. The proposal has been made by one of our councillors in County Roscommon and Roscommon County Council has sent a motion on it to the Minister.
On the question of speed limits in the vicinity of schools, it is about time the Minster called in the senior officials from all the councils. I read all the propaganda from another party about the question of speed limits outside schools and, to say the least, it is milking it. This problem is not the responsibility of Fianna Fáil or the Minister; it is the responsibility of local authorities.
I was a councillor until June 2004 and I received a submission yesterday from the council to nominate speed limits. I submitted one in 2002 but the meeting was never held by Roscommon County Council to discuss the speed limit. I ask the Minister to ring the county manager and tell him to get on with it and bring about a reduction in the speed limit outside schools. The problem is obvious but it appears to have been politically motivated to damage the Minister and the Minister of State. It was raised in our area as a political issue by a Deputy who is flouting the situation with photo opportunities outside schools and so on, yet his own councillors, who are in the majority on Roscommon County Council, will not implement the policy of our Government and the Minister. I ask the Minister to get on the phone and direct them to get their act together in the next week because there is something very wrong with this. I do not understand the need for an 80 km/h speed limit on a good stretch of road from Lanesborough to Mullingar in the Chairman's constituency. That speed limit has been flouted because there is no choice but to do so. It is ridiculous that such a speed limit is set on that road.
It is also ludicrous for the speed limits on main carriageways to vary from 50 km/h to 60 km/h to 80 km/h and back to 50 km/h. When one travels west and passes Mother Hubbard's restaurant the speed limit is down to 80 km/h and motorists have to constantly adjust their speed to adhere to the speed limits when they should be concentrating on road safety. There is a need to examine the speed limits on our roads as a matter of great urgency.
I commend the Minister and the Minister of State on their work. They face a difficult task. I commend the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, on promoting road safety. His advertisements in that respect attract attention. Why should he not have such advertisements? There is criticism of them because the Opposition is jealous that we are in Government. He is entitled to have such advertisements as is the Minister, Deputy Cullen. I remember a former Minister from Wexford had plenty of publications when he was in office. That is only right. These are Ministers and they are entitled to be up front in promoting their policies in any way they deem fit. I commend the Minister and the Minister of State on that and they should not be shy about it.
I commend the Minister, Deputy Cullen, and the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, on the tremendous work they are doing. It is visible on the north side of Dublin in terms of the DART service and the extra carriages provided on that service. It is a tremendous service, as the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, who lives on that side of the city, will know. Everybody is complimenting the Minister in assisting Iarnród Éireann in providing extra carriages for the DART service, a service with which I am familiar.
When Garda representatives appeared before the meeting a few weeks ago, they informed us that a major problem that has developed, which has also come to light in England, is motorists driving under the influence of drugs. We do not seem to have a system in place for the drug testing of motorists. I would like the Minister to address that issue.
Most accidents do not happen on major roads but on minor roads. Speed limits on byroads are higher than on motorways which is ridiculous. The drivers of trucks and juggernauts constantly break the speed limit on motorways and force motorists out of their path such that they have to move into the inner lane. There does not seem to be any check on them. I hear from other motorists that they also find this to be the case. I bring those two issues to the attention of the Ministers.
I wish to raise the number of accidents brought about by non-nationals. I understand two non-nationals were killed on our roads last week. I hear that there is a high level of motor accidents brought about by non-nationals compared with those involving Irish citizens.
I wish to ask two questions, one of which I direct at the Minister of State, Deputy Callely. We were told three years ago when we started this insurance inquiry that there were not many underwriters interested in coming into the marketplace because there was not a high level of profitability in it. The joint committee is concerned about the lack of new entrants into the insurance market. Has the Minister had discussions with potential entrants to the insurance market? If not, will he undertake to meet potential entrants and to make known to them the significant developments that have taken place? I understand there was at least one major US underwriter keenly interested in this area.
We are all aware of the road fatalities among our young generation, which we hear of every Friday, Saturday and Sunday night. Can we adopt best practice from any other member state of the EU or any other country to address the difficulties experienced from, say, 10 p.m. on a Friday night to 4 a.m. on a Sunday morning? We might be able find information which would assist us in preparing the third interim report. That period of the weekend is a flashpoint when such tragedies occur.
A number of questions by various Deputies have been put to the Minister, Deputy Cullen. I wanted to group the questions as I am aware the Minister is under a time constraint.
Many colleagues covered many of the same questions. On the first point made by Deputy Ned O'Keeffe, I will undertake to respond immediately on the issue of the Portlaoise bypass. I will try to get answers to questions he raised.
It is important to point out that while we all are rightly focused on road safety, the problem in that respect is not unique to Ireland as opposed to everywhere else. When I refer to the target figure of 300 road deaths, I refer to it as an indicative figure, whereby we would achieve an improvement in reducing road deaths in terms of applying best international practice and the highest standards. I do not like to state a figure for that, but that is the best way I can put it. I am being realistic about what we are doing.
Deputy Ned O'Keeffe is right in what he said at one level. He is the first person here to point out that we have good random breath testing to a degree. Everybody involved in a road accident is automatically checked for alcohol consumption. If a garda has any suspicion that a person has consumed alcohol, he or she can breathalyse the motorist. It is important to bear that in mind. Interestingly, we are almost the same as the UK in that regard. Ironically, the UK is one of the best international achievers in the world in terms of road safety, which is an interesting point.
The Chairman's last point, which was also raised by most of the members, related to the proportionality issue. We are examining how we might address it and also the behaviour of young people at weekends. We are trying to find a good outcome. I will talk to all the party spokespersons tomorrow and go through the legal advice I have been given, which is quite complex. I read in one of today's newspaper that there is a strong legal challenge to drink driving tests carried out and a judge has dismissed some cases, or they will be appealed to a further court. The procedures in place are constantly being challenged in the courts. We must be robust in terms of the laws we put in place to deal with these issues.
The members raised issues on the question of enforcement. There is no doubt that visible enforcement of the law and a perception and understanding among people that if they break the law they will be caught makes us all behave much better on the road. That is the reason Government policy on the roll out of a specific traffic corps, and such visibility, is important.
Deputy Ned O'Keeffe and others picked up on and gave a figure that I am not sure is right. They said that approximately six out of seven people killed on our roads are aged between 18 and 25. I do not believe that, or anything near that, to be the case, although I stand to be corrected. I do not believe the figures are in that realm.
There is no doubt that the proportion of young people killed on our roads is high but in case an impression is given by the committee that the figure is at that level, I do not believe it is. That is not to say we do not have major problems in terms of road safety involving young people, boy racers and all the issues raised by members. The range of issues I and colleagues have spoken about and with which the committee has been dealing are central to delivery in this regard.
One issue that underpins all this is individual responsibility and driver behaviour on the road covering a wide range of issues, not only drink driving and speed. We had better be clear and not confuse the issue — drink driving and speed are at the core of the problems on our roads — there is also a range of other issues in terms of driver behaviour which are leading to the greater proportion of deaths and injuries.
In answer to Deputy O'Keeffe's question, the speed limit applying to trucks is back to 50 mph. It changed under metrication to 80 km/h, which is approximately 50 mph. My colleague has told me that it is illegal for trucks to use the outside lane on motorways, but truck drivers do not seem to observe that law. It has been the law since 1997.
They can drive side by side.
I concur with the Deputy because like him I travel the length and breadth of the country every week and I observe the same behaviour. It is an issue we want to see resolved because it causes frustration on the roads. When motorists get frustrated with such behaviour, they begin to do what they should not do. It also is an enforcement issue.
It should be highlighted in the campaign because it has been widely abused.
A couple of Deputies made that point. To be clear, there is no shortage of resources from the Department for running campaigns. Anything the National Safety Council and its chairman, Mr. Eddie Shaw, have sought from me and the Department has been granted. There is no question of a lack of resources in getting the message across. All of the campaigns have been well funded. They are of good quality and make a big impact.
While I do not mean to interrupt the Minister because I am anxious that he answer my questions on issues such as the driving test, it was made clear to us — no doubt what the man was saying was correct — that in booking time on television, for instance, one must have a budget in advance and that budget was not forthcoming. Clearly, there is a conflict. I suppose the Minister of State would know about advertising and booking space in advance better than anyone else.
Does the Deputy have a question because I want the Ministers to respond to all of the Deputies' questions? I will allow her to ask a supplementary question.
I tried to say something but the Chairman kept pushing me along. He then allowed others to ramble. May I complete my contribution?
The Deputy has completed her contribution and I have taken many others since.
I will not have another row with the Chairman this week.
I will not allow the Deputy to speak until all the questions asked are answered.
Mr. Shaw has stated——
Does the Deputy have a brief supplementary question to ask?
——he cannot adequately plan an advertising campaign because he does not receive the money in advance. Is he——
The Deputy made that point.
Excuse me, Chairman, please do not be so ignorant.
Can we have a response to that question?
Is that true?
Mr. Shaw came in here and made a scathing attack on the Government. I was appalled at statements he made because we do not live in an ideal world. If we did, some 560 people would not be killed on the roads each year. It would be better if he displayed more discretion when attending meetings.
In fairness to Deputies who asked questions, can we get responses from the Minister? If Deputies want to ask supplementary questions, I will allow them to do so.
I reiterate that the evidence is clear. There is no lack of resources for road safety campaigns from my Department. The evidence is clear in the quality of the campaigns run on television and in other mediums in recent years.
Nobody knows more about booking advertising time on television than I do. One need not pay in advance.
One must know that one has the money first.
I agree, but the Minister who makes the decisions has assured the committee that funds, if needed, are readily available. Am I correct?
Absolutely. Mr. Shaw never raised this issue with me.
He raised it with two committees.
I am answering the question. I have answered the question Deputy Lynch asked. I am confirming that the issue has never been raised with me. I am surprised that that has been said; that is all I am saying.
That clarifies the matter.
It has never been raised with me.
We raised many other issues.
As we are running out of time, I will group issues together. I thank the Deputies for their generous comments endorsing the advertisement placed by the Dublin Transportation Office. There was much jesting in the House in the early days when it appeared. It is interesting that many are now indicating there was merit in the DTO suggesting using the photograph of me, as Minister with responsibility for Operation Freeflow.
Was it the Department which suggested using the photograph?
It stimulated more debate than it would have if the photograph had not been included. That is clear because there has been much more discussion about it.
There is merit in Deputy Hogan's point on naming and shaming and I would not be against the idea of moving in that direction. However, I have indicated that I am working closely with the insurance companies and pressing them to offer better premiums. While I recognise that the insurance industry in the 1980s and early 1990s may have encountered difficulties, the success of the industry in recent years offers great potential for further reductions in premia. It also allows insurance companies to participate in a safety programme which should perhaps be more structured. We already see them participating, by way of their advertisement campaign, and understand they support the National Safety Council's work on road safety. Like the Minister, I too have met Mr. Eddie Shaw and appreciate his enthusiasm. I commend the good work he and the National Safety Council have done in recent years.
A question on what are referred to as boy racers was put to me. I am undertaking a review of the national car testing service and can indicate that I have received an interim report. I have recommended that we should make further adjustments to the NCT which may be able to address some of the issues raised about such vehicles. I refer particularly to the use of darkened windows and the level of noise from such vehicles, a matter to which Deputy Hogan referred.
On Deputy O'Keeffe's point on the book of quantum, the PIAB was intended to reduce legal costs and stabilise the size of damages. It has proved successful by putting such a book in place.
Deputy Lynch raised the issue of the 1% levy. I, as well as others, would welcome it arriving on my desk to be spent on road safety measures but, as the committee will be aware, levies of this nature are a matter for the Minister for Finance who has always indicated that, in general, he is not in favour of earmarking tax revenues for specific purposes. However, that will not stop me from repeating the view to him.
I thank the members who made generous and kind comments about the work being done by me, the Minister and departmental officials. I take the point that Senator Leyden and Deputies Callanan and Brady made on the improvements witnessed in the area of transport and, of course, Transport 21.
I thank Deputy Brady for his comments on the improvements made on the northside. He has brought a number of issues to my attention to improve transport services, not only on the northside but also in the greater Dublin area. The Department and I are determined to provide an integrated, co-ordinated and collaborative transport network. We will continue to endeavour in the next few years to deliver improvements on the same level seen in the past year.
The issue of underwriters was raised. In the past there was pressure on the Irish market and no encouragement for underwriters to enter. I am please to say, however, that following the insurance reform programme, there is now more encouragement to entice operators to enter. While there may be the big three — one could extend this number to five — there are 22 underwriters operating in the market today. IFSRA plays an important part in encouraging them to enter.
Let me mention two issues which are on my mind. Drink driving and driving under the influence of drugs are of concern as we approach what should be a festive time of year. Perhaps the committee will come up with some innovative measures to deal with the matter. As we approach Christmas, other states put programmes in place such as Operation Red Nose which involves older people ferrying and chauffeuring people to and from festive parties. The other plan involves drinks companies which supply non-alcoholic drinks to those persons deemed to be drivers, or others participating in festive occasions.
On a point of order——
Is the Minister of State saying he is not involved in discussions with anyone to introduce a new underwriter to the marketplace?
Discussions will be held with IFSRA.
Not with the Minister of State.
Discussions will not be held directly. However, as I do not want to be found wanting in this regard, I would not rule this out. If anyone approaches me, my officials and I will direct them through the appropriate channels. As members will appreciate, it is my job to try to encourage people to enter the Irish market.
On IFSRA, I would like the Ministers to seek a meeting with the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service in this regard. In regard to Mr. Shaw, I advise the Ministers to seek a transcript of the meeting two weeks ago when he made a scathing attack on Government policy and backbenchers for not doing the right thing.
The committee can supply the Ministers with the transcript.
It was very embarrassing. He then met the Minister, Deputy Cullen, for whom I have great admiration. He is an intelligent Minister who is doing an excellent job, as other Ministers did in the past. Adequate funding is another issue. Most politicians wear two hats but I wear just one.
May I have a reply to the two questions I posed on driver testing and speed cameras?
The issue of driver testing is currently before the LRC and I hope we will secure the outcome we deserve which would benefit all those affected by the backlog. The Department's proposals are very good. I thank the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, who has been very supportive in giving us the resources we need to resolve the issue. I urge members to accept the package which is a good one.
On the speed cameras issue, I do not have the figures. I could guess but will not do so here.
May we have them?
They can be obtained from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.
I thank the Minister, Deputy Cullen; the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, and their senior officials for attending and their contributions to a very interesting discussion which will assist us in formulating our third report on the reform of the insurance market. As there is no further business to transact, we will adjourn until 9.30 a.m. tomorrow when we will hold talks with departmental officials and ICTU on the WTO.
The joint committee adjourned at 11.05 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 17 November 2005.