Skip to main content
Normal View

JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE AND SMALL BUSINESS debate -
Thursday, 26 Jan 2006

Employment Permits Bill 2005: Presentation.

Item 8 is hearings on the Employment Permits Bill 2005, on which we will hear a presentation by Migrant Rights Centre Ireland. I welcome Mr. Bobby Gilmore, chairperson, Ms Helen Lowry, community worker, and Ms Olga Dubyna, a Ukrainian migrant worker on a spouse-dependant visa who currently serves on the board of Migrant Rights Centre Ireland. They are here to make their presentation on the Bill in advance of Committee Stage.

Before our visitors commence, I draw their attention to the fact that while members of this committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not extend to them. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on or make charges against a person inside or outside of the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We normally have a ten-minute submission but I understand that our visitors will share the time.

I am a community development worker with Migrant Rights Centre Ireland. The centre is a national rights based organisation that has worked with workers and their families since 2001. Through our daily work with migrant workers we have formed an analysis and insight into some of the issues facing them and their families here. Many of these issues obtained in the past in respect of the work permit system. Therefore, we welcome this opportunity to contribute to Committee Stage amendments on this Bill.

On first reading of the Bill, we welcome many of its elements, for example, the fact that it is now illegal for employers to withhold documents — such as a passport — belonging to an employee. We also welcome that the worker is entitled to hold the work permit. On our initial reading of the Bill, we were concerned, especially in the context of the green card spin in the media, that it was just putting into legislation what was already in place, namely, the work permit and work visa systems, with very different rights and entitlements afforded under both categories.

Members have all received a submission from the Migrant Rights Centre on the Bill. Due to the time constraints, I will not go through the submission. I will, however, highlight two issues and Ms Dubyna will highlight a further one.

The first issue for us is the length of time covered by a visa. From our initial reading of section 7(5)(a), we understood that the work permit would be issued for a period of one year, while a work visa would be issued for a period of two years. This was a matter of concern. However, in his contribution on Second Stage and in a letter we received from him recently, the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment stated that work permits may be granted for a period of two years and then, on renewal, for a further period of three years. The Migrant Rights Centre would welcome this provision in the Bill. It makes sense for migrant workers and for the administrators involved and I am sure the officials in the Department would welcome it.

We feel the two-year period makes more sense. It brings the work permit more into line with the work visa, a welcome initiative, and offers stability for migrant workers. If their work permits are for two years, it is easier for them to plan for the future, apply for loans, etc. It also makes bureaucratic sense. Much information is required from an employer applying for a work permit and if the permit is for two years, it makes the process a little easier to undertake. As has been seen from the experience of other European countries, when the process is complicated, employers sometimes have a tendency not to bother applying for the work permit when it is for a short period. The two-year period will add more stability. We would like to see this provision made secure through an amendment to section 7(5)(a).

The second issue of concern relates to supporting migrant workers who change employer, especially those who have been made redundant or who have been exploited in their first place of employment. The experience of the Migrant Rights Centre is that the majority of undocumented migrant workers have come into the country on valid work permits for one year. Often, through no fault of their own, they become undocumented because either the employment relationship has broken down or they have been made redundant. They have extreme difficulties accessing new employment and fall out of the system. We have also found that when a migrant worker becomes undocumented, exploitation is more likely to occur.

Our concern is to support migrant workers in the transition period if they must leave their first job. I know they have their work permits in their hands but we have a question in this regard. Who applies for the work permit? In the letter we received and in his Second Stage contribution, the Minister stated that the work permits may be granted on application from either the employer or the employee. This is our understanding but we have not seen it in the Bill. We would welcome this provision because if the employee has the power to apply for the work permit, this would go a long way towards combating exploitation. We ask that this be made more explicit in the Bill because currently it is not explicit.

We hope the fee of €500 could be waived in situations where a migrant worker who has been made redundant or exploited is trying to access a new employer. Sometimes the fee is a deterrent to an employer who might otherwise be willing to take a person on.

I will conclude on that point because I know Ms Dubyna will raise the other issue of concern on the Bill. Our basic premise is that we would like the work permit and work visa to be brought more in line so that there is not a huge discrepancy between rights afforded to migrant workers on work visas or work permits. Such a discrepancy does not bode well for integration. In our experience, it is in these circumstances that migrant workers become excluded. However, they are the people in the lower paid and less stable sectors of our economy who have been driving our economy and growth in the past five to ten years. I thank the committee for its time.

Ms Olga Dubyna

I am a board member of Migrant Rights Centre Ireland.

I am a Ukrainian national and I have been living in Ireland for more than four years. I came here in 2001 on a work permit basis. All my troubles started in 2003 when I wanted to change employer. My new employer, a cleaning company, promised to apply for my new work permit but in fact never did so. I had to switch to a spouse-dependant visa to stay here as my husband is employed in Dublin by a multinational company. He also came to Ireland in 2001 on a working visa but in 2004 his wages were not considered high enough for a working visa and he was switched to a work permit. As a wife of a work permit holder, I have no right to take a job. This creates unnecessary tension in our family. I became de-skilled, disqualified and I feel that I am useless. This situation is typical for many families of migrant workers. As my family has become a one-income family our income is considered not high enough to bring my children to Ireland. That is the reason my application for visas for my children was rejected last time. This creates an unhealthy atmosphere in many migrant families and it pushes people to look for illegal employment. This makes them vulnerable to any kind of exploitation.

In his presentation of the new employment Bill the Minister, Deputy Martin, stated that holders of green cards can bring their families to Ireland and their spouses will have an automatic right to work without a work permit. This is very unfair towards the people who are here in Ireland working for the Irish economy. Not all spouses want to work and spouses can be male or female. The families are staying in Ireland and economic migrants pay taxes here and spend their money here. A happy employee is a more productive employee.

I am here and I am willing to work but I cannot do so. I and my family are losing out and so is the Irish economy. The new employment Bill will create very different levels of rights for different people, not because of their qualifications but because of their income. A doctor or software developer has more rights. My husband is an electronic technician and I do not have the right to work.

On behalf of Migrants Rights Centre Ireland, I ask that spouses of work permit holders be given the right to work in Ireland. I thank the committee for its time.

I welcome the written submission from Migrant Rights Centre Ireland which the committee members have had an opportunity to read. I want to explore some aspects with regard to possible amendments which the Opposition might table. I am not able to answer the specific questions put by the delegation which are appropriate for the Government to answer in terms of the intentions of the Minister.

On the question of migrants who come to this country, either on the current scheme or by means of the proposed scheme, what spouse rights does the MRCI recommend should be enshrined in law? Does it propose that anybody working here for whatever period of time should automatically have the right of spousal and family reunification and with a residence right accruing to that family?

The Labour Party has a strong view regarding the two-tier system being proposed. This is not what the former Minister and Tánaiste promised when she spoke about a green card system. This will be teased out on Committee Stage.

In the view of Migrant Rights Centre Ireland, should there be an open green card system based on a quota, such as the system in Australia or the United States where an assessment is made of economic need and also an expanded cushion of migrant workers is added on? Should it be open to anybody within that quota to apply for a green card enabling them to reside for a fixed period in Ireland and with a right of renewal?

I invite Mr. Gilmore to reply.

Mr. Bobby Gilmore

With regard to the work permit system, people are coming here to fill jobs in the Irish economy that are not being taken up by Irish people. These will be long-term jobs as is the case in many other economies. In light of this, family reunification should be recommended and encouraged because it is very difficult for immigrants working in this economy to also try to keep an economy going in their own home place. They are trying to keep a family going on two continents. In the current world situation where communications have undergone such improvement over the past 30 years, such mobility should be recognised and allowed. Migration should be managed rather than controlled and immigrants should be enabled to access the political, social, economic and social networks of Irish life. Integration must happen even though it has not happened in Europe very well in the past 30 years. Ireland could be more innovative regarding these issues.

Integration is a separate issue and we will deal with that. I want to have a clear view of what the delegation is proposing. Is it of the view that everybody who is given a visa or a work permit to work in Ireland should have the right to bring their family here? In that context, would the spousal right to work be automatic?

They interlink much of the time and this has become a bit of a vicious circle. A person on a work permit who is low paid will not qualify for family reunification. The cut-off amount is approximately €420 per week. Many of the migrant workers who come to our drop-in centre do not secure family reunification. When they secure family reunification, that spouse — the vast majority of whom are women — is not in a position to be able to work. When the couple apply to bring their children here they are not successful because there is only one salary in the house. Ireland will be in competition with many other European countries to attract workers from the higher skilled sectors. As many incentives as possible must be offered to encourage workers to come to work in Ireland. If an automatic right to work is being afforded to spouses of work visa holders, the same right should be afforded to work permit holders whose spouses are in the country or intend to join them here.

We have always maintained the right to family reunification is paramount. It is a form of poverty to be away from home. People who are sustaining the Irish economy by working here and contributing in many ways by providing essential skills and work upon which the economy is dependent, are away from their families in many cases.

Deputy Howlin stated that integration is a different issue but it is very interlinked with this issue. The word "integration" is bandied about on many occasions.

Not everyone who comes wants to stay here permanently.

I agree that many people do not wish to come here permanently but some choose to make their lives here. We need to create the conditions for integration. If a person does not have the most basic social network around him or her it will be difficult to integrate in the long term. Our premise is that if the spouses of work visa holders are afforded the right to work, the same right should be afforded to spouses of work permit holders. If automatic rights to family reunification are being given and shorter access to long-term residency for work visa holders and this right is not afforded to work permit holders, a gap is being created between those on work permits and those on work visas which will greatly marginalise those in the lower paid and less stable sector of the economy.

I asked a question about quota.

I cannot prescribe an exact analogy of how Ireland should manage its economic migration because I am not in a position to do so.

It is a difficult question.

It is a difficult question that needs to be teased out. Reports will be published shortly on Ireland's options for managing its migration. We need to respond to the needs of the economy but if we are inviting migrant workers to come here and fill skills shortages in vital sectors of the economy and the labour market, they need to be afforded rights and entitlements while they are here and contributing to our economy.

We need to think about migration and the needs of the economy in the short, medium and long term. The data is not yet available. It has been stated that between 30,000 and 50,000 migrant workers are needed annually to sustain the current level of economic growth. However there is a spin-off caused. It has been said that every time a job is created in the higher paid or so-called higher skills sector of the economy, this has a trickle-down effect and creates a spin-off in terms of the creation of other jobs. For example, the economies of the accession countries will expand and boom. This is a longer-term phenomenon. Migration is here to stay and there would be a spin-off from that.

Does the Migrant Rights Centre have a view on quotas to present to the committee?

Mr. Gilmore

I am not sure we can copy the Australian model, which is totally different, as are those in America and Canada. We need to consider it from a different viewpoint within the context of the European situation.

Does that mean the centre is in favour of quotas or does it have no view on quotas? If there should be a different model, what form should it take?

Mr. Gilmore

We should work it out for ourselves. We have not set out to do that yet.

Does the centre have a position to outline to us?

Mr. Gilmore

Not on the quotas.

Does it have a position on any system?

Mr. Gilmore

No, because it has not been worked out. For example, the demographics in Europe mean that there are fewer than two people in the economy between 60 and 64 to everybody older than 64. A United Nations report of 2001 or 2002 stated that for everybody over the age of 64, including geezers such as me, only two people or less in the economy are between 60 and 64. This means we have a demographic deficit.

The birth rate in Ireland is 1.5 times the EU average, as published last week.

Mr. Gilmore

Right across Europe it is different. When the other economies begin to improve, naturally it will lead to another scramble for workers.

We need to legislate for current circumstances. The Bill is before the House and we are trying to get as many views from those people dealing with the matter.

Mr. Gilmore

I am not sure if Ireland or Europe can model their immigration policies on those that obtain in countries such as Australia, America or Canada.

Does the centre have another model to propose?

Mr. Gilmore

That is what Europe must work out. Europe is coming out of colonisation and it has not examined it.

It is trying to do so.

Is Mr. Gilmore stating that we cannot, as we do in other areas of legislation, copy best practice from anywhere in Europe when amending or updating our laws? Does no country in Europe meet the requirements of Migrant Rights Centre Ireland?

Mr. Gilmore

Given our experience of migration, we can be innovative on this issue. As a country and a people, we should wish for immigrants today what we hoped for our emigrants in the past.

We have learned much in the past 50 years in this regard. Does the green card system reflect new thinking? Is it possible that green cards could be issued by the embassy in the country from which a person is coming to Ireland? I know some Ukrainian people living in Westmeath who are highly skilled but who are unable to work, which is a shame because we could use their skills. If they had green cards or permits allowing them to use their skills here, would it not make it much easier than the current system?

It would make it easier to work in the first instance. However, the Bill as published links this to the worker's salary category. It is about what a worker earns as opposed to being linked to the needs of the economy. I know that the Bill gives discretion to the Minister and the Department to determine the specific needs of the labour market at the time. However, it seems to be linked to salaries — for example, those less than €30,000, those more than €60,000 etc. We cannot advocate definitely opting for a quota system because we do not know whether it would work. Obviously, we need to respond to the needs of the economy. In the past we advocated a system involving a "jobseeker" permit, which would be linked to the economy. The worker would have a basic permit entitling him or her to work in Ireland. The jobseeker permit would entitle him or her to go to the country and work when the need has been identified.

While we cannot point to any example in Europe that we specifically want, we can look at Europe and identify what has not worked. Many European countries have gone with more short-term job seeking permits such as, for example, temporary permits for seasonal work. Hungary, Spain, Portugal and Greece have opted for shorter-term permits of six months to one year. They are now having great difficulty because the number of work permit applicants is very low and the number of foreign workers in those countries is very high, which indicates a huge number of undocumented workers. In the past decade, political parties in countries such as Spain and France have come under huge pressure to carry out mass regularisations of undocumented workers.

While we cannot point to an example in Europe we should follow, as Mr. Gilmore said, we can learn from the experience of immigration in other countries and from our experience of thousands of undocumented Irish emigrants abroad who fell out of the system. They are filling labour gaps and carrying out work, upon which the American and British economies depend. In our situation, we will obviously always need to respond to the needs of the economy. However, we are quite concerned about a two-tiered system. Ideally, a jobseeker permit would be more relevant.

We must complete our deliberations by 10.30 a.m. Deputy Howlin asked some pertinent questions. This committee sees itself as a conduit from Government to Migrant Rights Centre Ireland. The witnesses are the experts in this field. Politicians must deal with everything across the 14 Departments. Deputy Howlin's key question related to the nature of the centre's key recommendation to the committee. The centre may, if it wishes, make a written submission to us over the next three days in advance of us dealing with the Bill.

I welcome the delegation and it is clear that we have no immigration policy; we are starting out from scratch. This matter also affects the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Has Migrant Rights Centre Ireland met the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform or Department officials to discuss family reunification, which I support and without which we will not get the type of integration into Irish society that is desirable? To eliminate some of the lack of information and prejudice that can build up in communities regarding migrant workers, we need people contributing to the economy across the family. What efforts has the centre made to obtain the agreement of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform on some of the issues it has raised?

Mr. Gilmore

We have had negotiations with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Garda National Immigration Bureau concerning people who have fallen through the system. We believe it is better to have people documented than undocumented. It is better to have people who are active and have access to the economy and the networks of Irish life than to have people on the margins. At present, the following three points continue to arise regarding migration across the world: loneliness; people not being valued; and people on the margins. It is our motivation to try to enable people to have access to the networks of society rather than their remaining outside them. Last week we had a meeting with representatives from the Garda National Immigration Bureau to try to come up with solutions for people who come here legally to work but who have fallen out of the system, by accident or whatever, and who want to re-enter it.

Another dimension puts pressure on the matter. The vast majority of people migrating here are between the ages of 20 and 35 and come from poor countries. Many have borrowed money — last week I heard of a case involving a figure of €12,000 — to get here and pay for a permit. That money may have been borrowed from loan sharks. These individuals are squeezed from both sides. People are trying to do the best they can to set up a life for themselves and keep the fires burning at home as well as here.

We must also recognise the contribution immigrants are making, not only to our economy but also to the economies of their home countries. Last year immigrant remittances amounted to €261 billion to their home economies. We must begin to see migration, not as a threat but as something that contributes to the world economy. We must also ask what we are giving back to those economies from which we are removing people. We are draining assets from other societies. We are taking the energy bands from those societies and they are being added to ours. We must consider what are we giving back to those societies in terms of development aid, etc.

Ireland's history means that it is in as good a position as any country to understand what we are discussing. It would be useful for the committee if the centre could reach some conclusions with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform or the Garda National Immigration Bureau. The centre should communicate the outcome of that process to the committee when decisions are eventually taken. If the centre and the Department come to an agreed view on immigration policy — I appreciate that it will be a tortuous process — it could have implications for the debate on the Employment Permits Bill 2005 and associated issues.

The centre's representatives will be fine as long as they are not obliged to deal with the Minister.

He is in a limbo situation with the Garda National Immigration Bureau. The committee has been trying for some time to elicit policy details in this regard from the various Departments, especially the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Mr. Gilmore

One of the difficulties at present is that migration is seen as a security issue. As someone who spent 36 years out of the country, often on work permits, I am aware that people in that position live on the edge. In this country, they are looked on — to a greater extent in the past four or five years — with a certain amount of suspicion. Immigrants are seen as a threat to the security and the comfort zones of the societies to which they come. These matters must be dealt with.

I welcome the Vice Chairman of the joint committee, Deputy Martin Brady.

I welcome the delegation. The Employment Permits Bill 2005 lists the types of workers that will qualify under the green card system. Does Migrants Rights Centre Ireland think the list should be expanded? It seems that many workers in the construction sector are not on the list. Should we include more workers on the list? Should the list be longer? Regardless of whether we like it, there are migrants, some of whom are paying tax, working in all parts of this country without work permits. Some of them came to this country with work permits, which were not renewed when their circumstances changed. They may, for example, have changed employers. What does the centre think should be done with such people? Something must be done to regularise the system. It would be crazy to allow such circumstances to continue. Can we do something in the Employment Permits Bill 2005 to regularise the system? Does the centre have a suggestion in that regard?

The sectors listed in the Bill reflect the eligible and ineligible sectors in the current work permits system. It is important that up-to-date information be given to the Department about the needs of the economy. It is imperative that we know where, for example, shortages exist. The centre believes that the list of sectors should be updated regularly. If there are job vacancies in certain areas and if employers are crying out for people to fill them, workers from other countries who have qualifications in those areas should be allowed to work here. If there is such a vacancy in an ineligible sector, a work permit will not be processed by the Department. It is paramount that timely information is provided on a regular basis because the needs of the economy change. There is room for the expansion of the list in, for example, the construction industry.

Deputy Callanan called for the regularisation of the work permits system. I accept that there are no data relating specifically to the numbers of undocumented workers in this country. The experience of Migrants Rights Centre is that there are many such people. As I said earlier, the vast majority of those people came to Ireland with a valid work permit but have since fallen out of the system. The Migrants Rights Centre has a very good working relationship with the Departments of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and Justice, Equality and Law Reform on these matters. The centre is responsible for negotiating on behalf of undocumented workers on the ground. Its officials find out why such people became undocumented. The Department is usually willing to listen when migrant workers do not know where to turn in cases of redundancy, the breakdown of the employment relationship or outright exploitation. While the Department regularises the circumstances of such people on a day-by-day basis, I am not sure it is prepared to enshrine that in legislation. It is obvious, however, that something needs to be done to acknowledge the problems being faced by people on whom our economy is increasingly dependent. The people in question may be paying tax, as Deputy Callanan suggested, but they are not registered anywhere else, even though our economy is thriving on foot of the labour and taxes they contribute. This will become a bigger issue as time goes by if action is not taken. I do not know whether I should call for mass regularisations but some form of intervention is needed.

Many of the people in question are afraid to take the steps which could lead to their regularisation.

Many of them are worried that they will be issued with deportation orders if they raise their heads above the water. It is often found, when the cases of migrant workers are explained and the layers of their stories are revealed, that their problems are not their fault. The Department is particularly willing to intervene in cases of, for example, bonded labour. As the people under discussion are very vulnerable, they are afraid to contact the relevant organisations.

I would like to ask Mr. Gilmore to indicate the number of people about which we are talking. How many people who had work permits when they came to Ireland are now living in limbo because they do not have any such permits?

Mr. Gilmore

We do not have a definite number.

Are there 1,000 such people?

Mr. Gilmore

I imagine there are much more than 1,000 people in such circumstances.

There are more.

Are there 5,000 such people?

Mr. Gilmore

It is probable that the figure is even greater than that.

Are there 10,000 such people?

Mr. Gilmore

No. I do not think there are that many.

There are more than 5,000 such people.

Mr. Gilmore

I imagine that is the case. It should be borne in mind that many people who come to work in this country's economy do not sign on anywhere, just as was the case when Irish people went to Britain.

Mr. Gilmore

They are not registered in the health system and they do not have PPS numbers. There are many people in such circumstances. If they get injured or fall by the wayside in any way — something that happened many Irish people in Britain — there is no net that will pick them up and they will not be able to avail of any services. We will have a similar situation to that in Britain in years gone by. A great deal of intergovernmental information about this issue needs to be transmitted by means of the European Union.

Some Irish people in Britain returned to Ireland in such circumstances during the past 50 years, although the vast majority did not do so.

Mr. Gilmore

There is a certain level of return migration. Every economic migrant has a strong ideology of return but that does not always come to pass. People who return home often fail to prepare effectively for it. For example, they might not give themselves enough time to settle at home. Most people who return home do so after retirement.

Would Ms Dubyna, who is most welcome, like to say anything else before we conclude?

Ms Dubyna

I ask the members of the joint committee to consider all the submissions that have been produced by the Migrants Rights Centre. My husband and I are migrant workers. Many people in my community have come to Ireland as migrant workers. I ask the committee to do its best to assist migrant workers and Irish society.

I would like to ask a brief question. Have Ms Dubyna's children been able to join her in Ireland?

Ms Dubyna

No. I intend to apply for them to be allowed to come here. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has demanded that my husband should produce all the documentation. I would like to apply next week. My children are still in the Ukraine.

How many children does Ms Dubyna have?

Ms Dubyna

I have two teenage sons. When I left them, they were rather small.

Ms Dubyna's case encapsulates the cruelty of what we are doing to people. It is appalling.

I hope her problems will be rectified. What ages are Ms Dubyna's children?

Ms Dubyna

They are 15 and 13. When I left them they were 11 and nine.

It is important for children to be with their parents during such years.

On behalf of the joint committee, I thank Mr. Gilmore, Ms Lowry and Ms Dubyna of the Migrants Rights Centre Ireland for attending. Their interesting contributions will be of great assistance to the committee as it prepares to consider the Employment Permits Bill 2005 next week.

It is hugely wasteful of resources that the cases of people who fall out of the system, for whatever reason, are regularised individually. I propose that the committee should write to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform to highlight Ms Dubyna's case.

We should state that we want to support her case.

If we make a broader point, I am sure we can encourage the Department to examine all the outstanding family unification cases, particularly those which involve children being reunited with their parents.

Is that agreed?

It has been unanimously agreed.

The letter should be sent from the committee.

The committee will write to the Department about Ms Dubyna's case.

This discussion has greatly benefited the members of the committee ahead of their consideration of Committee Stage of the Employment Permits Bill 2005. I thank the members of the delegation for attending. I look forward to the committee assisting them in any way it can in the remaining 18 months of the lifetime of the Government, during which time I will be in the Chair.

I ask the members of the delegation to feel free to contact the clerk to the committee at any time. We will try to assist them in any way possible.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.30 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 1 February 2006.

Top
Share