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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE AND SMALL BUSINESS debate -
Wednesday, 7 Mar 2007

Energy Prices: Discussion with CER.

I welcome Mr. Tom Reeves, chairman of CER, and his colleagues, Commissioner Michael Tutty and Deputy Commissioner Eugene Coughlan. I will shortly ask Mr. Reeves to make his presentation.

Before doing so I draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that although members of this committee have absolute privilege, this privilege does not extend to the witnesses. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any persons outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Members who wish to make a declaration on any matter before the committee may do so now or at the commencement of their own contribution. Mr. Reeves may now proceed with his presentation.

Mr. Tom Reeves

We are pleased to be here on our first time to appear before this committee. Rather than having a long written text we decided to use a slideshow, and we will be quite happy to clarify points, if required, as we go along.

We are working within the confines of Government and EU policy, where there are three competing objectives of security, supply and competitiveness relating to the environment, all pulling in different directions. It is sometimes quite difficult to reconcile all of them. We have various statutory obligations which we must comply with in the financial area with respect to renewables, proportion of competition etc.

One of our duties is to examine ESB's costs every year and determine and approve its application for price increases or decreases. We have set out the price increases for the past few years in the documentation. In 2007, there has been quite a significant increase compared with previous years. There has also been a decrease in gas prices since 1 February.

In making up electricity prices, we consider three or four elements. There is the manufacturing of electricity and its generation, the high-voltage and low-voltage wires, as well as the business of supplying, building and reading meters. The generation component takes up over 70% of the cost, with nearly half of that cost being fuel. The final price of electricity is determined, to a large extent, by the cost of fuel. We rely by more than 90% on imported fuels, with 90% of our gas and all our coal and oil being imported.

Our only local resources are renewables, hydro energy and some peat. For gas, supply would make up nearly two thirds of the final price. We are fully exposed to the European and international markets for fuel. The mix in the last full year of statistics shows a large amount of gas, coal and oil.

How have events unfolded in recent years? The cost of wholesale gas on the international market tripled between September 2003 and September 2006. It is sold in British pence sterling per term, going from 18p to 53p. We all know how the price of oil has changed over the years. The price of coal has not changed so much but it has increased a little. In the past week or so, petrol prices have also increased.

We are exposed to all those prices and a graph in the documentation shows how the price has changed in the gas area up until the third quarter of last year. When we were doing the work for the 2007 tariffs, there was a sharp increase in January 2006. In the winter of 2005, our major concern was ensuring we would be able to get our hands on gas because there were forecasts in Britain that there would be a gas shortage. We had to ensure adequate supplies of gas coming through for households, industry and the power sector. It was a sudden and unexpected jump in 2006.

The prices we set in 2005 took no account of that throughout 2006, so prices were understated in that year as compared with wholesale prices. As we suggest prices once a year, we have a correction factor every year. It has come to people's attention that later in the year, the price of gas on the market in the UK has started to drop, unlike that of oil. It is now back to a price not too different from where it was in 2003. We have taken some account of that.

The Central Statistics Office has recently adjusted the inflation basket and although I have not seen the weightings of oil and gas, the total weighting for the two is around 2% in the basket. Their price would have some impact on inflation and were instrumental in some of the increases in the January figure. That is because the jump happens once a year rather than gradually over the year.

There are a number of principles which we would work with in determining these prices. We must have cost-reflective tariffs, in other words, the charge for electricity in a house is greater than the charge for a very large factory because the cost of supplying electricity and meeting the load put on the system is quite different.

If we decided unilaterally to refuse to allow the ESB and Bord Gáis to recover their legitimate costs, and we spend a long time assessing their costs — up to six months from about early April until we sign off, that would undermine other customers. We cannot just deny a price increase because we have duties to others in the market as well. If we do not give a price increase in one year, we must give it in another, and all types of distortions in the market are created. We must examine all these factors carefully and in doing so, we must comply with legislation stating we cannot discriminate improperly between various parties in the business.

Nearly all the large customers have moved away from the ESB. Almost all large industry is now supplied by independents not under the tariff regime we have struck for the ESB. There are still some remnant customers in that large sector of the market but the ESB only has approximately 30 customers left in that respect. Practically all that sector of the market has moved away from ESB.

We have also indicated that people cannot come back to ESB. We have removed the tariffs from that segment of the market, so it is now fully competitive. This has nothing to do with the tariff-setting regime we have.

What is the outlook for the future? We have commented on international fuel prices, with gas prices in the UK starting to fall from about October onwards. We had established an average price increase for electricity of about 20% but we knocked approximately 7% off that so when the price of electricity increase took effect in January, it was approximately 12.5% rather than 19.5%. We also have a 10% reduction in natural gas prices that took effect on 1 February. There is a winter-summer tariff that is particularly relevant to medium-sized enterprises that are still supplied by the ESB. Winter here is short and there is a higher price for the months of November, December, January and February. On 1 February, small and medium industries experienced a reduction of about 15% in the price of electricity compared with winter rates, depending on the type of load each consumer had. If fuel prices continue to fall throughout the year, we will see further reductions in tariffs.

The process only takes place once a year so there is a sudden jump and problem of lag when prices on the retail market here do not reflect world wholesale prices, whether they are higher or lower.

The Oireachtas has just passed a Bill on the single electricity market, SEM, and this is one of the ways we are trying to increase competition in the market. That Bill on an all-island market will soon be signed into law and will create a larger wholesale market where prices will be determined on a slightly different basis to how they are now.

We published a major paper two weeks ago on how the retail market will work in an all-island context which is intended to drive efficiencies and more competitive prices. Three months ago we negotiated an agreement with the ESB on its disposing of some 1,300 MW of its generation capacity to bring its market share down to 40% by 2010. We have ended tariff regulation for larger customers.

We are in the process of developing a second North-South interconnector to allow more capacity on the lines bringing electricity to markets North and South. We have also developed an east-west interconnector and both should be operational by early 2012. We await the Government's White Paper in the next week or two to see what it proposes in this area.

We must be aware of security of supply of high-quality electricity because this is especially important for industry. Despite price increases, there has been no diminution in growth of demand for electricity. In fact, the peak demand we must plan for this year grew by more than we anticipated. We expected it to rise by about 200 MW and it grew by 250 MW this winter. Even at that level of high demand the system was secure and electricity was supplied to all. The price increase appears to have had no effect.

In the medium term, to ensure this trend continues into the future, we have negotiated an agreement with the ESB whereby we can replace old, less reliable stations with new, cleaner stations. Growth in demand for electricity matches the growth in the economy almost exactly but the peak is growing higher than the average. The winter peak is higher when the economy is going steadily and much of this is driven by the Christmas lights people use that can add 100 MW to demand. Energy efficiency is an important issue, but our primary goal is to ensure there is enough generating capacity in the system.

Huntstown, just north of the airport, is the second station to be built by Viridian and it will be commissioned by September 2007. We have given the ESB and Bord Gáis permission to build stations in the Cork area and we hope and expect they will operational by the end of 2009. The programme of closures will be in effect by then with other stations opening as replacements. Mr. Tutty can talk more on wind energy, but in the meantime, a significant amount of wind energy, 760 MW, is on the system. We have just reopened the process on creating more wind energy and there is a further 1,300 MW ready for receipt of offers in the next six months.

It is all very well creating the electricity but we must ensure it is delivered securely and safely and is of a high quality. Only high tech industries are aware of electricity quality but it is, nonetheless, an important factor. We have approved large investments in the wire and networks business over the last five years continuing until 2010 that come to considerably in excess of €5 billion, which makes this the second largest capital programme after the roads programme. This has all happened quietly and great credit is due to all involved on getting it done so well. Security of supply is vital for industrial development in the country and we have been fortunate that we have had none of the blackouts that have occurred across Europe. Our system is one of the best around.

We have invested large amounts in the gas networks, although there is a greater requirement for electricity. The three power stations I mentioned will see the best part of €900 million of investment, and wind energy also costs about €1 million per megawatt.

Ireland is part of the British gas pricing system and the two interconnectors to the UK are fully open with no congestion. The price of the gas we buy is, effectively, determined in Britain and we must transport it here. Coal and oil are commodities traded around the world and the latter is traded in dollars and we are vulnerable to all of these prices. The corner has been turned on prices as Britain has new infrastructure in place that is a great help. We hope we will do better next time around.

We are trying to ensure the ESB purchases its fuel in the proper way. If it beats the index we set, we share it with the customers annually. We have a fuel price mechanism that tracks prices on world markets more closely and we have held consultations on this mechanism twice. The Irish Business and Employers Confederation, IBEC, on behalf of industry, rejected this idea on a number of occasions when prices were rising because it wanted more security for its members so that they could budget properly for running their businesses. When the price turned, IBEC said it was in favour of the mechanism and we have been working on the idea since. We will publish a paper in the next week or two on how such a mechanism might be applied to the gas business.

We are also considering seasonal time of day tariffs. Electricity is a complicated business and the price in the market varies every half hour. In the winter, stations are used that are not used during the summer. It is expensive to produce electricity at that time so during the winter peak, the price of electricity in the evening is very high. We are considering pricing on a seasonal basis and also on a daily basis. The cost of producing electricity on a summer's night is very low and the price of producing it on a winter's evening is very high.

We are looking at smart metering which involves electronic meters that can measure electricity consumed and can produce more sophisticated tariffs. This is similar to the Minister's Power of One campaign that seeks to have people use their dishwashers and washing machines at 8 p.m. or 9 p.m. when prices are lower and it is cheaper to produce electricity. We will publish a paper on this matter next week. An advantage is that the meters can read in two directions. They can also measure the power output from micro-generation in small windmills that people might want in their houses. We are examining the structure of tariffs to see if we can get people to change their behaviour and consume electricity more efficiently.

We are trying to balance all of these issues and are always conscious of price, quality of supply and continuity of supply. We are walking a narrow path trying to ensure we get this right and are keen to see that the price of electricity reflects real time. Electricity is a real-time business, the wholesale price changes every half hour, yet the tariff we offer the customer changes only once a year so this gives rise to lags, complications and adjustments. We would like to do this on a real-time basis that follows world prices.

I thank Mr. Reeves for his contribution. Can Mr. Tutty tell the committee about wind energy?

Mr. Michael Tutty

I think it might be better to let the members talk at this point. Mr. Reeves mentioned that we have 750 MW at the moment and there are another 600 MW, or thereabouts, that have connection offers signed and agreed. Another 1,300 MW will get connection offers over the next six months or so. There are many others in a queue waiting to be connected.

Are grid connections being facilitated currently? We understood they were blocked.

Mr. Tutty

No. The grid connections for an extra 1,300 MW are being worked on and will be rolled out over the next six months or so. The blockage came a few years ago when there was a sudden surge in the applications to connect to the grid. The blockage ceased at the end of 2004. As a result of the big backlog, there are people in a queue waiting to be connected, but we are moving-----

Why? I do not understand that.

Mr. Tutty

There are about 3,000 MW in the queue. To connect all of them in one go would require a massive investment of time to work out how they are to be connected and to get all the connections in place. For that amount of work to take place at the one time would require many deep reinforcements in the network. We are trying to do it as quickly as possible in segments that can be dealt with.

Did the CER not stop connections completely?

Mr. Tutty

For a period up to the end of 2004, yes, but that has been changed. Since then we had gate 1, as we called it, which dealt with almost 400 MW of wind, all of which are now under construction — some of them may be finished — and 1,300 MW are getting their connection offers now. If all of those go ahead, we will have the existing 750 MW. Another 600 MW have connection offers and are building, plus another 1,300, which means we will have 2,500 MW of wind on the system in the near future. That, together with the other renewables, which are much smaller, will meet our targets for 2010. We have to wait to see how we will meet the Minister's target for 2020.

A study is being done currently between North and South, which was undertaken at the request of the Departments North and South to determine the mix we should have in 2020 and how to achieve that. One of the issues on wind is that it is intermittent. If we have an unlimited amount of wind on the system, it can be costly because it all must be backed up by conventional generation and be ready to roll as soon as the wind stops. The optimum amount of wind on the system is being examined to some extent in that study. We have not reached it yet but we are moving as quickly as possible. We are the fastest growing wind sector in the world but we are starting from a small base.

I welcome the representatives from the Commission for Energy Regulation to the meeting. I am sure they understand the reason they are here. The issue this committee has been grappling with for a considerable period is national competitiveness and energy feeds into that considerably. We have received many representations and much criticism of the regulatory regime in this jurisdiction in terms of keeping prices down, having them more reflective of the marketplace and generating more competition in the marketplace, which is the reason the CER was established. The cost base of industry has increased enormously, as we have seen in recent weeks and will probably see again today, unfortunately. Firms are coming under enormous pressure. I became aware of an example of that yesterday where a food business in this jurisdiction has had a 50% increase in its energy bill in the past year. That is in the food sector. It increased from €8.2 million to almost €12 million. That is a substantial increase. Part of it might be due to expansion but most of it is due to the massive increases in energy costs to the company.

Last September the CER announced a 31% increase in gas prices and a 21% increase in electricity prices. Is that correct?

Mr. Reeves

More or less, yes.

I wrote to the regulators expressing my view on that matter and I was told that the costs associated with marketplace oil prices, etc., had to be passed on to the consumer. I was also told, and the Taoiseach told the Dáil, that CER could only review the prices once a year. I was very surprised at the end of November or early December to hear about a 10% reduction of the 31% increase in gas. Letters are being sent out with the bills from Bord Gáis clapping CER on the back, so to speak, about the 10% reduction on the increase. Why did the CER not reduce the price by 10% last September? Was it wrong for CER to increase the price by 31%? What scrutiny took place to announce that price increase? Was there enough investment in time to achieve that? I put it to the representatives that they were merely a price processor for the price increases it received from the ESB and Bord Gáis. Mr. Reeves might address those matters first.

I want to deal with the environmental issues. I am interested to hear about the North-South all-island market and how it might work. I want to highlight one minor aspect of that. One of the major failures has been the lack of support for micro-generation and alternative energy at domestic level. The position in the United Kingdom is that people get a rebate when, through domestic wind generation, domestic solar general or other alternative methods, they create more energy than they use, which energy goes back into the grid. It is not substantial but that rebate is available to them.

It is extraordinarily irritating that that does not happen here. The Power of One campaign is a deflection; I get angry thinking about it. The power of one to me is the power of one Minister who is not doing what could be done in these areas. I have heard nothing from the CER about the environment and what we need to do to encourage micro-generation. There is much capacity for micro-generation at hydroelectric level now which was not available many years ago. I have asked the Minister about that on four occasions and I cannot get a clear answer on it. I do not understand the reason the CER is not recommending that every new house built here have solar panels.

On wind energy, I understanding that wind is blowing in some place in Ireland 90% of the time. I may be wrong about that and I am happy to be corrected. I would like to hear the figures on that. Taking the figures given by Mr. Tutty, am I right in saying that adds up to almost 3,000 MW, which is more than 50% of current peak demand? He also said he has to have that backed up somewhere. I want to hear the formula by which the CER determines the level of back-up, allowing for the amount of wind available on a constant basis, and how we come to that.

George Bush is in Brazil today. He will probably sign an agreement with Brazil on the question of the supply of ethanol and bio-ethanol As politicians, we do not know what is happening here in that area. We thought there were opportunities with beet and other methods. I do not know the answer to that question. I recognise it is much easier to produce ethanol from sugar cane. It does not require one of the functions to reduce the main product to oil but we want to know what is happening in that regard.

There are no grants available for wind generators attached to houses. Why is that? I am looking at this in terms of the environment, not dealing with the issues raised by Deputy Hogan. I am anxious to deal with the other issues. If we are to have security of energy supply, we must have a firmly established product here.

There is no research of which I am aware — and I would be glad to be corrected on this — on developing new sustainable energy. There is no doctorate level research taking place, for example, on the development of hydrogen energy in Ireland, which has to be the future. That appears to be the cleanest way forward. Although I oppose nuclear energy, no debate is taking place here on the difference between nuclear fission and nuclear fusion, which is crucial for people who are afraid of nuclear energy. People should at least have all the facts. A huge amount is not happening. I have probably moved this discussion away from the main issues but these are the issues that people raise with me.

Mr. Reeves

I will deal with Deputy Hogan's questions and Michael Tutty will deal with the environmental issues. Every year since we were given this power on electricity tariffs we have gone through the same process. We have consulted widely and at length on these matters. We would never see ourselves as price processors. We have knocked significant chunks off the costs the ESB has put to us, on labour and other areas, which would have been included in the prices if we had allowed them. Last year we knocked approximately €30 million off some of their prices. When all these things are added together it makes a huge difference. The ESB is very unhappy with what we have done. We are not clapping ourselves on the back and never do. However, nobody ever says that we have not done a good job and if that is the case, we believe we must be doing reasonably all right.

In the regulatory regime we have followed the processes that are set out in the Government's White Paper on better regulation. We do what is necessary and do it in public. We publish all our papers, which is approximately 200 per year, and we have between 40 and 50 public meetings. Admittedly, it is hard to get to the small consumer. Small industry does not come to us as much as it might. IBEC comes to us representing the larger customers. Not only does it make representations but we also have regular meetings in every quarter with its representatives. We know what they think.

The small business aspect is not very good. The small and medium enterprises do not have the resources. The regular customer and even the new consumer agency does not have the resources to be as professional about it as we are or to have the information we have. We are conscious of that and always try to ensure that we get the right balance. It is quite difficult.

I cannot understand how somebody's bill has increased by 50%. They must have expanded considerably. I would be interested to know why that happens. The once a year system is not in the law or anywhere else, and I did not hear that anybody had said that. Previously, we did it twice per year and we did it this time. When we make our first decision at the end of August we take account of the latest forecasts. Members saw the graph, where the red line suddenly went up at the beginning of July. That was the future we were taking account of at the time. It was still the future when we made our decision. The price change for electricity takes effect on 1 January and for gas on 1 October. We recognised that things had changed and we changed it.

No company will buy on a day-by-day basis or on a monthly basis. It buys forward because it must ensure that the fuel will turn up. We make this decision and Bord Gáis and the ESB go out into the market and buy. It is a risk averse strategy and it might be slow in responding to international prices but it is a prudent strategy and we accept that. The company does not buy its full quantity of fuels. If there is a mild winter, it might be stuck with the fuels and if there is a cold winter, it must buy more. There is always a volume risk associated with the weather. There is a low price in the market at present. That is due to people who bought long and more than they required having to dump it because the winter was exceptionally mild. These are the types of risk strategies people must follow. We are clear that we want these people to be prudent and to ensure there is a continuing supply of gas, oil and coal to produce electricity and supply the customers.

We consulted twice or three times on the fuel variation mechanism, which would track those changes. People did not want it until the price started coming down. In 2006, both the ESB and Bord Gáis incurred fuel purchase costs of €150 million more than we allowed them. The price, therefore, was depressed by that amount. In electricity terms, that is 5% or 6%. The price in 2006 should have been higher than it was and the price in 2007, as the Deputy said, should be lower. Year on year they balance out, but the lag is detrimental to competition. We do not like it but we have to take account of what people think and how they like to do business. They do not want the price changing all the time.

I do not wish to dwell on this too long but it is important. Last summer, the price of a barrel of oil was $80. When the commission assessed the price increase from the ESB and Bord Gáis last September, it took that into account.

Mr. Reeves

I cannot remember exactly what the price of a barrel of oil was-----

It was $80.

Mr. Reeves

It is whatever the price is of the type of oil the ESB uses, which is the heavy fuel oil. It is somewhat related to the price of the crude oil. It only forms approximately one sixth of the ESB's oil fuel costs. The gas is the principal one.

My point is that when the commission was making its decision about the price increase, it was looking at a price from three months earlier. The price was $65 per barrel last September, only $6 more than today.

Mr. Reeves

We look forward through the year on the gas because one can get all the information from the various companies who produce these indices in the forward markets. We take a view forward out to one year as to what the price will be. One can buy now for next winter or for this time next year. We use the indices.

To get back to the reality, the commission had to make a decision on the price increase, based on a particular set of circumstances last September. It proposed to increase gas by 31% and electricity by 21%, and there were variations of that according to whether the customer was a household or business. The commission was basing its assessment on $80 per barrel, which was the price three months previously. The price in September was $65 per barrel, which is only a few dollars more than today's price.

Mr. Reeves

We take a view over the full year. We look at the forward price. In 2005, for example, when we looked at the gas price for 2006, we said it would be 41p sterling. It was 61p sterling in the forward look a year later in 2006. It has fallen back since then but that was the forward price we assumed for the year.

Why was it necessary to review it within eight weeks?

Mr. Reeves

We decided to review it because the price had come back. This caused untold disruption not for the consumers but for the sellers.

The only reason I know about the annual review is that the Taoiseach told the Dáil. He told the Dáil that the commission can only review the increases that were granted in September a year later.

Mr. Reeves

That has been our custom and practice.

Why was it changed?

Mr. Reeves

This time there was a significant shift. We thought that if we did not do it this time, we would be doing it again in a year.

The commission might be unpopular politically, and its independence might be called into question if it did not do it. It certainly appears that a significant amount of pressure was applied to the CER to ensure that it reflected what was happening in the marketplace. It was a sensitive political time.

Mr. Reeves

There has been no political pressure on the us other than what happens at committees such as this. We must be cognisant of reality, and that we have three competing objectives to meet. If the price is dropped too low and nobody will build a power station, one is in bigger trouble. If the price is set too high, industry will be driven out. It is hard to get the right balance. If people have bought forward at the price one has struck, at the time one considered right and one has taken all the necessary professional advice and consulted as to the right price, people are locked into that. If one suddenly drops the price, even for the competition, one undermines people's businesses. We have a financial duty of care to everybody in this business.

I have a final question. I accept that much structural change is needed in the marketplace and that new capacity is required. There was a great deal of amber alert in 2005. Hopefully that will improve in 2007 and beyond. There is concern about the growth rates in the economy and whether we have the energy capacity to deal with that. The commission has important work in that regard.

Eddie O'Connor of Airtricity has been extremely critical of the regulatory regime here. I do not know if the Commission for Energy Regulation responded to the criticisms made by Mr. O'Connor, who has since moved his company's operations to Texas where he is receiving great co-operation. He was very critical of the regulations that apply in Ireland and indicated that they had discouraged him from further investment as far as wind energy is concerned.

I am rather surprised that so many large customers have moved away from the ESB. It is a reflection on the company that it lost such customers to private suppliers, who can obviously produce electricity at a much cheaper rate.

It had been my understanding that night tariffs come on stream at approximately 11 p.m. Mr. Reeves stated that the CER is encouraging families to use their washing machines, dryers, etc., from 8 p.m. to 9 p.m. onwards. As far as I am aware, however, the relevant tariffs do not kick in until very late at night. It is somewhat rich to expect people to wait until 11 p.m. or midnight to put their washing machines, etc, on.

The general perception among members of the public is that costs have soared. They are not happy about the CER's role in this regard and it has been criticised for approving increases of 12.6% in respect of electricity and 33.8% — less 10% — in respect of gas. People are finding it difficult to cope with these increases.

When gas from the Corrib field is brought ashore and when the Tynagh generating station is up and running at full capacity, will there be a major reduction in costs or will these developments have any impact? Is the harvesting of gas from landfill sites economically viable?

I am always impressed when I pass through Dundalk and see the windmills that supply energy to the college there. Why are there not more such windmills in smaller towns? Is there a reason they cannot be put in place?

Mr. Reeves

The CER has no dealings in upstream matters relating to the Corrib gasfield. The downstream flange and the Bellanaboy terminal are dealt with by the Minister. We have no dealings whatsoever with the project. However, Bord Gáis has extended the pipeline from Galway so that when the various matters are resolved, the gas can be taken ashore and brought into the system. It will then be a question of how the pipes will be paid for and how the gas will be sold. Prior to that, however, we are not involved. The value of the Corrib field relates to security of supply. Since it is a free market, the price will be the closest the company can obtain to the world norm less the cost of transporting the gas to Britain. The company will try to maximise the value it can obtain, which is normal commercial practice.

The Tynagh power station has been fully up and running for over a year. Its operation has been very successful and reliable and we are extremely pleased with it.

Mr. Tutty will deal with Deputy Callanan's question on wind generation.

Most of the large customers to whom Senator Leyden referred have moved away from the ESB's tariff regime. He is correct that the two-part tariff for households kicks in at midnight in the summer and 11 p.m. in the winter. There are two meters involved in this system. The meters to which we are referring are electronic. Mobile phones can indicate who one called, the time the call was made and the length of time the call lasted. If a similar system can be introduced in respect of electricity meters, people would be in a position to know the times at which the price is high and when it is low. In addition, it could also measure the production from the micro-generation as it is put out into the system

Will the CER recommend that the ESB should commence night metering at 8 p.m.? It would have an immediate impact in respect of demand and on the use of electricity if families knew that a lower rate would kick in at that time.

Mr. Reeves

We have not thought of doing that. We are trying to examine the possibility of introducing electronic meters.

Yes, but my suggestion would have an immediate effect.

Mr. Reeves

There is a two-part meter in my home.

There is also one in mine.

Mr. Reeves

One must be very disciplined in order to use such a meter properly.

One must stay up late at night to use it.

Mr. Reeves

Most people do not have such meters and do not, therefore, know when the lower rate applies. The NightSaver rate is half the daytime rate. One can make good savings from it because it is much cheaper to produce electricity at night. We will give consideration to the Senator's suggestion regarding an 8 p.m. start time. However, the clock on every meter would have to be altered, which would be an expensive exercise. If we can put in place the new electronic meters, with a display screen that can be fitted in people's kitchens, we think it would be far better. We would like, therefore, to make a phased shift from electromechanical meters to their electronic counterparts.

Gas from landfill is being harvested at present. Last week we approved an extension to the collection of landfill gas at the Ballyogan dump in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown. Such harvesting projects have limited lifetimes because the gas is eventually exhausted. However, harvesting has been happening for quite some time.

The windmill project is quite small. It seems quite large but the output is decidedly small. There is no reason that people cannot apply to have such projects connected to the system if they can raise the money to do so. The windmill in Dundalk probably cost something in the order of €1 million. It works approximately one third of the time. Therefore, it takes a lengthy period to get one's money back from such a project.

Mr. Tutty

As regards windmills, planning permission issues would arise. I do not believe that many people living in the middle of towns would want large windmills to be constructed adjacent to their houses. It is difficult enough to obtain planning permission to construct windmills in areas outside urban areas. In towns, people would probably opt for the smaller models that can be mounted on their houses rather than having large pylons capable of generating 2 MW of power built next to them.

Mr. Eddie O'Connor has been critical of the regime here. At the same time, Airtricity is building more wind farms in this country. Even before the moratorium to which Senator O'Toole referred earlier, Airtricity had connection agreements for more wind farms. The company did not proceed with their construction for some time but is now doing so. More wind farms are being built under gate 2, the first round relating to further connection offers. Airtricity continues to operate here and it is expanding its operations abroad at a great rate. It has not left the country. As with other companies involved in the wind generation industry, it would like more subsidies to be introduced. It has stated that we do not do as much in this country in that regard as other countries. Despite that, the number of people who want to build wind farms here is massive. The Minister's figures may be right because the demand is there. If no one wanted to build wind farms, we would state that the incentives on offer are not that great.

I thank Mr. Reeves and his colleagues for their presentation, which generated an interesting discussion.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.40 a.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 14 March 2007.
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