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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT debate -
Tuesday, 8 Sep 2009

Retail Trade: Discussion.

We are meeting to discuss matters concerning the retail trade in Ireland. I welcome Mr. David Keeling, managing director, and Ms Caroline Keeling, group managing director, Keelings Group. I thank them for their attendance.

I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Oireachtas or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I call Mr. Keeling to make his presentation.

Mr. David Keeling

I am managing director of Keelings Fresh, a business that employs approximately 950 people. Within the business, we grow and import fruit and salads. For the purpose of the meeting, I will go through our own farm's production. During the past ten years we have invested more than €30 million in horticulture and created up to 600 jobs during peak season. We have two farm sites, one in Dundalk and the other in St. Margaret's, County Dublin. We grow approximately 50% of all Irish strawberries, raspberries and blueberries on our farms and produce approximately 80% of all Irish peppers. We have been growing bramley apples since the 1970s. At our farm in Dundalk we produce approximately 4 million heads of lettuce, including iceberg and cos-romaine. For the past couple of years we have also been engaged in growing Irish pumpkins. A new venture for us this year has been growing Irish lilies. In the main we supply the retail and food services sector with fresh product. During the past five years we have spent approximately €1.2 million on research and development in an effort to improve our growing systems and varieties and ultimately ensure we are as competitive as possible.

This year the environment has been challenging for us, as it has been for most industries. There has been deflation to a figure of between 5% and 20%; at the same time, however, there have been increases in costs. The weather this year has been dreadful. As a result, we have had not only suppressed demand but we have also had to plough in crops which has resulted in deflation and loss of crop and so on. This has been challenging.

One of our greatest concerns is the cost of doing business in Ireland as compared with the United Kingdom. One of the contributory factors in this regard is that during the past two years sterling has weakened by 29% against the euro. For example, during the past two years we have become 29% more expensive than our competitors in Britain and Northern Ireland. Electricity prices here are 30% higher than in the United Kingdom. While we have witnessed a 70% increase since 2001, in the United Kingdom or elsewhere EU there have been increases of only 36%. Gas costs here are 15% higher than in the United Kingdom. We have approximately 40 acres of glasshouses and one of the highest costs is that of natural gas which is 15% more costly here than in the United Kingdom. The minimum agricultural wage has increased by 65% since 2000. Currently, we are paying approximately 45% more than in the United Kingdom. There have been two increases during the past year which have resulted in a 5% increase in the minimum wage. Also, waste disposal costs in Ireland are €182 per tonne but only £70 per tonne in the United Kingdom.

In summary, all of these extra costs are not sustainable for the Irish horticulture sector. Despite the fact that there has been growth and a lot of success in this area during the past few years, we are concerned about the extra costs incurred here than in the United Kingdom. It is critical that the Irish horticulture sector builds a strong relationship with the Irish consumer.

Would Ms Keeling like to make a presentation?

Ms Caroline Keeling

No, thank you.

I thank Mr. Keeling for his presentation. It is nice to finally meet the personnel behind the company, the vans of which I have seen on the road many times.

As a former business person, I am aware of the importance of the cost of inputs in how one survives in business and in terms of one's profit margins. The rate of inflation is going down which, obviously, will result in some reduction in costs.

The figure provided in relation to waste disposal is high. Has Mr. Keeling ever considered investing in composting facilities? How does the company dispose of its waste? Does it go to a landfill site?

Has the company ever been asked by suppliers for hello money in order to have its produce placed on shelves? That is an issue in which the committee is interested.

I agree with Mr. Keeling that this has been a devastating year for those involved in growing. It has been one of the worst, if not the worst, summers on record. When driving through Rush and Skerries a number of years ago, I recall seeing a farmer who had to plough cauliflowers back into the land because he was not able to harvest them. However, one sees from the shelves that some of the supermarkets are importing cauliflowers from France and Spain, and even further afield. The balance of what we import and the supports for Irish producers is foremost in our minds here.

I have a couple of brief questions. On waste disposal inflation, our electricity and gas costs are higher and, hopefully, they will be coming down. Particularly if one is into producing lilies, one will need to provide heat. Cheaper lilies from Bolivia and other countries are being imported, which is a deterrent for Keelings in trying to start something new. Finally, we are interested to know whether Keelings is being asked to pay hello money to put its produce on the shelves of some of the major retailers.

Mr. David Keeling

In terms of landfill, for example, within our pepper project we used string that was not biodegradable and we had to put all of our plants and string into landfill. In the past three years we have developed biodegradable string which means all of our pepper crop is going into composting. That has helped us a great deal. Within our strawberries and berries projects, instead of using peat we are using a more sustainable product which one can use over a number of years. Those are a couple of measures we are taking to reduce the turnaround and the costs. It is a constant challenge.

In terms of inflation, probably a few minor areas have reduced in costs. Fertilisers or feed may have reduced in cost. However, probably 70% of our costs, which is labour, energy and so forth, are extremely high compared with the UK and that is a major problem. For example, if the costs on our soft fruit farm were the same as the UK, we would probably save approximately €1.5 million a year. That is the extent of the problem. It is something over which we have not had much control. It has just been increasing every year. It has gone up by 65% since 2000. With regard to our own production, we have never had to pay any hello money to retailers.

The question was whether Keelings was asked for it.

Ms Caroline Keeling

No. When we go with a seasonal programme we will tend to have a marketing fund to support it and we fight strongly for it going towards supporting our product. The way we tend to work with them is that in certain product areas we will support certain marketing activities but we ensure that it relates to our products.

Mr. David Keeling

In terms of imports, the challenge is to label Irish product as well as possible and also to build a relationship with the consumer. One of the big problems is it is not obvious enough to shoppers in retail whether a product is Irish or an import. One idea I have had, which I am sure will work, is that there could be a test to prove whether a product is Irish. If there is a scientific way of proving a strawberry is Irish and another is definitely Dutch, somebody could conduct such tests and potentially name and shame the retailers who are selling imported product as Irish because that is a bit of an issue.

That is a key issue. We get green beans labelled as Irish but we also know green beans are coming from Kenya. There are apples coming from China and asparagus from Peru. If we are trying to market our island as a green food economy and a green food island, without being protectionist we must support indigenous produce. We pick these products off the shelves. Certainly, most people want to support Irish produce. We want to support the industry and ensure that it survives. The labelling is key.

At this committee we discussed country of origin labelling previously. It has been a subject of discussion in Brussels as well. I would like to see it here so that we can know from where we are buying are food and also whether labelling is being deceptive on the consumer.

Mr. David Keeling

Another point is that there is below cost selling in the market. Germany, for example, has banned below cost selling. At times products are being sold for below the cost of production. That is another issue.

Do supermarkets ask suppliers for extra money for marketing? If I produce a good product, why must I pay to market it as it has gone through a rigorous process overseen by the Department to establish that it is meets the standards of a good safe Irish product? We have investigated the processes applying to the sale of Brazilian beef. We know that our standards are higher and our products are better than anybody else. What does Keelings mean by that?

Ms Caroline Keeling

Retailers will run different marketing programmes in different products and generally they will look at trying to promote a particular product at certain times and they look for support from whoever is supplying that product, be it Coca-Cola, Mars, Glanbia or ourselves.

What type of support is Ms Keeling speaking about?

Ms Caroline Keeling

I am referring to financial support.

That is fair enough.

Would the funding for that marketing be for shelf space positioning, for example, for eye level shelf space?

Ms Caroline Keeling

Not necessarily in our case. If one has the best promotion, one gets the gondola. I know that in the other sectors, they will actually buy the gondola, but that is not traditional in our industry.

If Ms Keeling has evidence of below cost selling will she make that information available to the committee secretariat on a confidential basis?

Ms Caroline Keeling

Yes.

We are trying to establish if there is below cost selling because it presents a serious challenge to the protection of Irish jobs. The Chairman and members of this committee are very anxious to get hard evidence to inform the Minister that this is still a challenge to the industry.

I wish to continue the questioning on marketing support. Ms Keeling states that the money provided for marketing support is controlled and linked to the product.

Ms Caroline Keeling

It is linked to particular activities around the product.

Does one pay for this at the time the promotion takes places, or is the payment spread throughout the full year?

Ms Caroline Keeling

It is normal to pay for it just after the promotion takes place.

In other words, there is a promotional activity and then one is billed for it.

Ms Caroline Keeling

Yes.

It is not a question of ongoing payments during the full year?

Ms Caroline Keeling

No.

Senator Ryan, may I ask a question?

Who decides on the amount to be paid?

Ms Caroline Keeling

That is a matter for negotiation.

The Keelings Group is in business. I am not a business person, but as Deputy Mary White said, both of the Keelings are very successful business people. That it is a matter for negotiation is like the question: "How long is a piece of string?" I would like to know roughly how much it would cost to run a promotion? Would it be in the region of €5,000, €2,500 or €2,000? We are in a very competitive environment, and as Mr. David Keeling stated the product is weather dependent, but if one were offered a very attractive spot at eye level, but at a cost of €10,000, how would one deal with that?

Mr. David Keeling

One tends to try to ensure that one knows how much that costs for products in various other categories, so that one knows the value of it. For example, one would get a view from suppliers of pet food, Mars bars or Coca-Cola so that one forms a view of the value so that one is getting a fair price. One then considers whether one needs to do a promotion. If one does not feel one needs to do it, one says "No" and if it is of benefit one may potentially do it. For example, at this time of year we know that sales of particular products are not good and we know we have a strong crop so that we know we must promote it and push it, whereas if we were very tight on products, we would say "No". It depends on availability.

Has the company been excluded because it did not pay it?

Ms Caroline Keeling

The promotion may not be run, but we are not excluded necessarily.

Mr. David Keeling

One does not get the same level of sales potentially.

Ms Caroline Keeling

Yes.

Mr. David Keeling

With the benefit of the promotion, one might sell double or triple the level of product, but without it one might sell half of the product.

I apologise for interrupting Senator Ryan.

Who is in control of the timing of such promotional activity? Does a retailer inform Keelings it intends to run it next week and wants Keelings to——

Ms Caroline Keeling

While it is difficult to be exact, 90% of the time it is Keelings directing what we want. For a percentage of the time, it will be retailers asking for promotions and if that suits us, we will give them. In general however, we are the ones who tend to push the timing of such activities because we know when our crops will be coming in.

What is the nature of such promotional activity? For example, Coca-Cola might operate a buy one, get one free, BOGOF, scheme. What is the nature of promotional activity in respect of vegetables?

Ms Caroline Keeling

For our product lines, promotions can include BOGOF, a scheme in which one buys two items for a certain price, a 33% reduction in price or 50% extra product free. We have a range of promotions we can consider, depending on the product.

Mr. David Keeling

Seriously, what we try to do is to figure out how we are going to get the best return, depending on the volume of produce in our possession. If we have a high volume, we may be obliged to opt for deeper cuts or stronger promotions whereas if we do not have such high volumes, we are not so obliged.

The witnesses stated up-front that Keelings imports and grows fruit and salads. Apart from what it imports, does Keelings grow everything else or do contract growers also supply it?

Mr. David Keeling

Within Irish production, probably 95% of it is produced on our farms, which we run and own ourselves.

Very well. As for the jobs mix, the figure of 600 jobs during peak season obviously is impressive. During the trough period, what figure is reached at the low end?

Mr. David Keeling

During the winter, it probably is between approximately 150 and 200 people.

Very well. Can Mr. Keeling comment on the mix between Irish and non-Irish employees?

Mr. David Keeling

Within the farms business, it is probable that 80% are foreign, while 20% are Irish. However, even among our foreign staff we have a mix, including some of our senior managers within our farms business who have expertise in horticulture that does not exist in Ireland. Consequently, we also have brought in some of our senior management from abroad.

Keelings obviously is spending a considerable amount in research and development. The sum of €1.2 million over five years is approximately €240,000 per year. Given the nature of research and development, I presume Keelings employs graduates. Do they tend to be botany or food science graduates?

Mr. David Keeling

We had one person who was a botany graduate who had been in the Botanic Gardens. We had two different people who pursued their studies in Warrenstown College and who subsequently have been working with us for between two and four years.

Is the research about crop husbandry and similar matters?

Mr. David Keeling

Our aim is to have as long a season as possible during the Irish season and it is about figuring out what are the best growing systems and varieties. For example, as one variety will crop early while another will crop late, one must figure out the best approach.

I had the pleasure of visiting the Keelings pepper project a couple of years ago and one could not help but be impressed. I am interested in the research and development aspect. Does Keelings have interaction with any State agencies in respect of research and development? Does the company have access to grants?

Mr. David Keeling

As far as I am aware, this is linked to taxation and we have worked with the Department of Finance. We have received some grants for research and development. One was for our research and development site for our berries. Another was for a project we brought in from Israel regarding lettuce. Another grant was in respect of an IT system on which we worked. We have worked in a few areas.

On the issue of the labelling of produce, the joint committee visited the European Commission recently and members specifically discussed this issue with the Commissioner. I understand the witnesses are trying to state they must discriminate between what is Irish and what is not. Do the witnesses have specific suggestions as to how this could be done or what might be the best way of so doing?

Mr. David Keeling

As horticulture is relatively small in the grand scheme of things, the Bord Bia logo is the best way to do this. One would be linking in horticulture with the rest of agriculture in one strong powerful voice. That probably is the best way to do it.

Is something specific, like a shamrock, suitable? It must be specific to fruit and vegetables.

Mr. David Keeling

The Bord Bia logo is the best way and having the grower's name on it is useful because it personalises it. There are sometimes photographs of growers in stores. Our view is to bring the marketing expertise that Mars and such companies have so that, as growers and producers, we can apply those marketing skills to create a relationship with the consumer. There are often great stories in horticulture that the consumer does not know about. An example is that not many people are aware of Irish peppers.

It struck me at the time that this was so far from the eating habits of Irish people in restaurants. They are not aware that they can look for an Irish pepper.

I thank Mr. Keeling and Ms Keeling. Can the witnesses tell me how long the so-called marketing contribution business has been going on? Is it running across the board in all retail chains?

Ms Caroline Keeling

In the past year we found that as prices got tighter, there is less and less of that involved. We are getting down to net prices. The marketing aspect is tending to be eased out.

That hello money was around was always denied but we know it happened. In that case it was usually a once-off but with the marketing contribution there is a rollover. One can employ it for whatever seasonal product in order to dress it up. Do the witnesses ever feel pressurised into making the marketing contribution to the stores?

Ms Caroline Keeling

There is a certain level of pressure but it is down to what one wants to sell. We have our own pressures that make us do it; it is not the retailer that does it.

Does this apply to stores across the board, such as Tesco and Dunnes Stores?

Ms Caroline Keeling

Yes, it is the way the industry works. If one wants a promotion, one must contribute to it.

They are all on the bandwagon now because of the new concept of marketing contribution. What is the correct term?

Ms Caroline Keeling

There are different terms for different retailers. This has been going on for many years.

Is it five or six years?

Ms Caroline Keeling

Yes. I am 15 years in the business. It does not apply just to produce or horticulture, it is across the board.

In the supermarkets where Keelings finds itself displaced, as occasionally it does, where do the displacing products come from?

Ms Caroline Keeling

The current challenge is competing with production and supply from the UK.

The issues in respect of costs have been outlined.

Ms Caroline Keeling

That is the biggest issue.

Have any stores undertaken the promotion of Irish or home-grown produce? I was in Cork and Kerry last week for a few days in connection with the draft report I am drawing up on job creation. I spoke to a number of people, particularly in supermarkets, and local producers growers. They said that where emphasis placed on promotion of local products in the store, it makes a significant difference. Does Keelings find this to be the case?

Ms Caroline Keeling

Definitely.

Is it a very good marketing tool?

Ms Caroline Keeling

Absolutely.

Mr. David Keeling

One can double the volume sold just by placing the product in the right place and highlighting it.

Ms Caroline Keeling

Labelling must also be correct.

Supermarkets have the power to switch this around at will and put producers such as Keelings in a less advantageous location in the store.

Ms Caroline Keeling

Most of the supermarkets support Irish production in that they see a value to it.

Are people aware of their carbon footprint, air miles and the food miles? Has research on this been carried out?

Mr. David Keeling

It was very relevant until the economy changed approximately one year ago; we do not hear much about it at present. Potentially, once things have settled down and are more normal it will become important again.

Is there anything in particular that we could recommend to Government that would help the witnesses to create additional jobs? If Mr. Keeling had a wish list and Santa was sitting over here what would be on it?

Mr. David Keeling

It would probably relate to the agriculture minimum wage which can account for 60% of costs in some crops.

Ms Caroline Keeling

We could make investments that would create jobs and we know we could sell the product but we feel strongly that our costs would be much higher than a UK import. It is a big challenge for our business to invest the money to grow the product in Ireland when we know it can be imported from the UK for much less than we will ever be able to grow it for given our current cost base.

Looking back over the past 25 years the opportunity is available now because not only are the witnesses growers but to a point they are also their own distributor and their own marketer. Seasonal perishable goods must be got rid of in a short space of time. Shelf space is available now if money is invested in marketing, and sales can be extended and grown with this shelf space. It is all about getting a product on the shelf and if it is a quality product at the right price it will sell, particularly when people know it is Irish.

The witnesses have come before the committee to state that we have a job to do with regard to the cost base to allow them to grow their industry by employing more people and selling more goods. They now have the vehicle to sell it on the shelf space of the multiples. That is what I understand from the questioning of my colleagues. It is a positive good news story. Whether these costs are for electricity or gas, we must go to the Government with regard to them to assist these people because they will give us the Celtic tiger part three, and I hope that will be in the next few years.

I thank the delegates for giving their time to the committee today and for assisting us in our deliberations. Their submission and their willingness to answer our questions was very helpful and we appreciate their taking time out of their busy schedule. We wish them continued success in their business. In particular I thank Caroline Keeling for attending the meeting with her injured arm. The witnesses are now excused and should they wish they may observe proceedings from the Visitors Gallery. I am sure they will recognise our next witness — the Minister of State, Deputy Trevor Sargent.

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food with responsibility for horticulture and food, Deputy Trevor Sargent. He is accompanied by Mr. Kevin Cassidy, the principal officer in the crop production and safety division of the Department and Mr. Gabriel Roe who is a senior inspector in the division. They are all welcome and I thank them for their attendance. The Minister of State does not need to be read any of the usual warnings because he is a Member, so he knows the rules better than anybody else.

Tá áthas orm deis a fháil labhairt ar an ábhar tábhachtach seo a bhaineann le postanna agus bia sa tír seo. For some time I have been extremely concerned at the perceived power of the supermarket multiples and their treatment of farmers and growers in the contract decisions being adopted, in particular for fresh product lines in the fruit and vegetable sector.

The responsibilities of the large supermarket chains operating in this country do not and cannot be allowed to stop at consumers and shareholders. Their responsibilities must also include primary producers, processors and suppliers. For these reasons, I have been engaged for some time in a series of consultations with the various stakeholder interests to try to identify the specific difficulties and problems which are being encountered constantly by producers in their ongoing relationship with the multiples. Indeed, balancing interests is essential to securing a sustainable food sector and ensuring consumer choice.

While multiples are clearly the main route to market for most fruit and vegetable producers, other routes need to be developed to improve the resilience of the productive sector. These routes include farmers' markets, of which more than 130 are now in operation in Ireland, a growing number of farm shops and new box scheme outlets. While they are evidence of market opportunities, their individual success will depend on how well they deliver to consumers in their areas and on increasing consumer interest in seasonality and freshness of produce. The new code of good practice and banner for farmers markets which we developed in consultation with stakeholders has been well received, with applications from 28 markets to date. Such has been the interest that we will open up a second application period in the autumn.

Bord Bia's timely best in season initiative highlights to consumers what fruit and vegetables are available in Ireland and when they are in season. Each month until the end of the year the campaign will focus in the press and digital media on freshness, taste and health benefits of produce in season. All promotional activities are directing consumers to a website, www.bestinseason.ie, which showcases the availability of fruit and vegetables when they are best in season in Ireland. In June strawberries were the focus, while in July new season potatoes were featured. In September there is a major focus on back to school and the role seasonally available vegetables and potatoes play in a healthy balanced diet for children, particularly as we approach the winter months. In addition, articles on seasonal themes are targeted at food writers. Seasonal purchasing tends to involve more Irish produce and it is important that people recognise what is in season.

The issue of food prices, the differentials in prices between this jurisdiction and Northern Ireland and the UK and the impact that this is having on all sectors of the retail chain have been matters of debate and concern for some time. Arising from various concerns expressed and the impact that the North-South price differentials were having on employment, business activity and income to the Exchequer, the Tánaiste initiated an engagement in June 2008 with all the links in the retail chain, including retailers, suppliers, distributors and manufacturers, to bring greater transparency to the reasons for the price differentials between the North and the South. As a result, the Tánaiste requested Forfás to carry out an analysis of the relative cost of doing business in a number of locations in the Republic, Northern Ireland and the UK. Forfás analysis, which was published late in 2008, found that while the cost of doing business was indeed higher in this jurisdiction, the extent of this additional cost would only justify a differential of 5% to 6% in prices between the South and the North.

Retailers have also expressed concerns about the cost of sourcing goods in Ireland, which they maintain is significantly greater than similar costs in Britain and Northern Ireland. On the other hand, suppliers and distributors have contended that there is a significant imbalance in the relationship between retailers and suppliers which is giving rise to suppliers being squeezed by the increasingly difficult demands being made by retailers. The presentation by Keelings was interesting in that regard. At the request of the Tánaiste, the Competition Authority carried out a study of the retail import and distribution sector to ascertain how competition is working and whether any practices or methods of competition are affecting the supply of goods and services in that sector. The authority's report on its findings, Retail-related Import and Distribution Study, was published at the end of June.

Trade representatives of suppliers and manufacturers have also claimed that retailers, especially the large multiples, seek better terms from suppliers on the basis that if suppliers do not meet their demands, supplies will be obtained elsewhere, including from abroad, with the consequence of indigenous suppliers being put out of business. In this regard, section 5 of the Competition Act 2002 prohibits abuse of a dominant position. In order to establish that there has been a breach of section 5 of the Act, the Competition Authority must demonstrate to a court that, first, the business in question holds a dominant position in a relevant market and, second, that it has abused that dominant position. This concerns the abuse of dominance but it is not illegal to be dominant. The definition of what it is to be dominant makes it difficult to follow through on any allegation which is made and holding 35% of the overall market is a significant percentage.

Persons aggrieved by a practice or an abuse prohibited by the Competition Acts 2002 to 2006 have the right to take a private action under the Acts. Relief by way of an injunction or declaration or by damages, including exemplary damages, is available in such actions. Alternatively, complaints alleging a breach of competition rules may be referred to the Competition Authority for investigation. A person who has evidence of retailers engaging in prohibited practices should bring that evidence to the attention of the Competition Authority in order that it may be fully investigated. However, that is easier said than done.

The reluctance of suppliers to initiate an action under this provision has highlighted the need to bring forward additional provisions to tackle the problems we are here to discuss. In this regard, we have had very frank exchanges with the representatives of the various stakeholder interests. I readily acknowledge that retailers must strike a balance between value for consumers and a fair return to producers and suppliers. This is a prerequisite of a viable indigenous fruit and vegetable sector which has been placed under considerable strain by the ever increasing pursuit of low prices by the supermarkets.

This sector, about which I am particularly concerned, forms only one element of the overall grocery trade. I have also been working closely with my colleagues in government, in particular the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and her Department, on the details of a code of practice for this whole area, which I have been advocating for some time. This has culminated recently in the publication by the Tánaiste of a consultation document on a draft code of practice for the grocery goods sector. The consultation paper has sought the views of all stakeholders, including producers, suppliers, retailers and consumers, on the possible introduction of the code. It asks eight key questions of stakeholders, including consumers, which include: whether any code of practice should be voluntary or statutory in nature; how it may best be enforced; whether a separate ombudsman's office should be established; whether there should be a threshold to limit its application; and the impact the application of such a code may have on consumer choice and prices. It also includes an initial draft outline of such a code of practice and seeks views on its provisions. The drafting of the code is based on international best practice. The question of whether it can apply to goods obtained outside the jurisdiction is being worked on.

These proposals are an attempt to address the concerns raised about the relationship between suppliers and retailers. The key objective must be to address the need to strike a proper balance in this relationship within the retail sector. Throughout the process of our consultations I have met and heard from suppliers who are afraid to say publicly what they will say to me privately for fear of being identified and ultimately targeted by retailers. Many allegations have been made relating to requests for payments such as hello money, market support funding and advertising and promotional money, all of which have been consistently denied by the multiples. This is the reason we urgently need the code of practice and the appointment of the retail ombudsman which should have statutory backing and powers which would be legally enforceable.

The issues we are trying to tackle are not confined to Ireland. My colleague, the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Brendan Smith, and other EU agriculture Ministers have intervened in the matter at recent Agriculture and Fisheries Council meetings in Brussels to draw attention to what is a Europe-wide phenomenon. In response to these approaches, Mariann Fischer Boel, EU Commissioner for Agriculture and Rural Development, has undertaken to complete reviews of anti-competitive practices in the retail sector and report back to the Agriculture and Fisheries Council by the end of the year.

The high level group set up by the European Commission has made useful recommendations and proposed a roadmap of key initiatives. The proposal for a European forum to address relationships and practices along the food chain has much to offer, as does the Commission review of potentially unfair or anti-competitive commercial practices. The roadmap includes consideration of codes of conduct for certain retail practices and work on this should be prioritised because a common approach is important to ensure fair dealing and optimal functioning of the food chain. The balancing of interests is essential in securing a sustainable European food sector and ensuring consumer choice.

The Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has been consistently supportive of the horticulture sector under its grant aid schemes for many years. This involves the protection of taxpayers' money as well as ensuring we have maximum employment and a secure and sustainable source of food. The taxpayer, through us, has paid out €30 million in grant aid to producers since 2000 under the scheme of investment aid for the development of commercial horticulture to support investments in excess of €80 million in the industry. In addition, the capital investment scheme for marketing and processing also provided grant aid of €16 million in respect of horticulture projects. These schemes have been the catalyst for investment and growth and have assisted producers to upgrade and develop new production facilities and improve quality.

Also under the scheme of EU aid for producer organisations of fruit and vegetables, €35 million has been allocated to Irish producer organisations for the programmes implemented from 1999 to date. These programmes are designed to assist fruit and vegetable growers in the implementation of approved operational schemes to improve product quality, boost commercial value and promote the use of environmentally aware farming and husbandry techniques. All of these supports are essential to improve our competitiveness, bring about more sustainable production and assist growers in meeting the demands of retail outlets in terms of the ever increasing production standards demanded by consumers.

Most fruit and vegetable growing businesses in Ireland are family-run, with many in the business for several generations. Keelings is a good example. There has been significant consolidation in the sector in the past ten to 15 years. As a result, there are now significantly fewer growers than 20 years ago. Those who remain in the business are considerably larger in scale and many of them have invested heavily with assistance from my Department to meet the demands of their customers. People should be aware of how few growers we have left producing the indigenous fruit and vegetables we rely on in this country. If one sought commercial carrot growers, one would be lucky to see five growers who have just about been able to survive. Even that is in question in the current environment.

The main products grown include potatoes, fresh field vegetables such as cabbage, carrots, cauliflowers, broccoli, leeks, sprouts, parsnips and spinach; glasshouse crops such as tomatoes, peppers, salads and herbs; mushrooms grown in mushroom tunnels; and fruit, mainly strawberries, grown under some form of protection, and apples.

Vegetable and fruit growing is a business that is both capital and labour intensive, and we have heard about the minimum wage, which should perhaps be discussed. Like any business it must make a profit to continue or otherwise the normal business requirements of renewal and reinvestment cannot take place. As with all business, if growing for the fresh market is not viable or profitable, then it will not continue. The businesses will close and the people working in them, be they growing, harvesting, packing, delivering or whatever, will be laid off.

In addition, the Irish consumer will no longer have fresh, locally grown fruit and vegetables available in the shops and all our fresh fruit and vegetables will be imported. In many cases they would be up to a week old by the time they reach our tables. We would be completely dependent for supply on other countries, assuming we could get supplies at all. Globally, more than 100 countries are importing to meet their food needs currently. According to the Washington Population Institute, approximately 82 do not import enough to maintain a healthy population. We are considering a scenario with knock-on effects, and this is the first tremor in the action to help our indigenous fruit and vegetable industry survive. Even if far-off countries had a surplus to sell us, we would increase our carbon footprint at a time when we must reduce it to save us from catastrophic climate change. That, paradoxically, would make it more difficult to obtain the food supplies because we would be compounding the problem. It would be difficult to re-establish vegetable growing in Ireland in the event of changes taking place that disrupted our supply from other countries because in the meantime large-scale food growing skills and facilities would be lost. Deputy Mary White has a great deal of knowledge about growing different types of vegetables, as have others present, but growing to feed the needs of a supermarket needs an entirely different set of skills from those any of us attempt part time.

It is important to bear in mind that the consultation period on the code of practice comes to an end on Wednesday 30 September and follows a series of actions undertaken by the Government to bring greater transparency and balance to the grocery goods sector, including the National Consumer Agency price surveys, the Forfás report on the cost of running retail operations in Ireland and the Competition Authority study on the retail related import and distribution sector.

It is essential that any unfair or illegal practices at work in the retail grocery trade which could result in lasting damage to the sector, especially to the vulnerable fresh fruit and vegetable elements, are tackled effectively once and for all. We have made a valuable start in the publication of the consultation documents for the code of practice and must vigorously follow this up so that greater certainty and reassurance can be introduced into the relationship between suppliers and the supermarket multiples.

I thank the Minister of State for his presentation. This is the first time in over ten years that I did not get in my own vegetable plot and few spuds so I know exactly what he means.

I have some brief questions. Does the Minister of State expect that any cases will be taken against supermarkets that have a dominant position with the resulting abuse of growers? That is what is going on. Does he believe any other measures could be introduced to protect growers from such abuse, especially by retailers in a dominant position? Can any measures be introduced to deal with the scam of marketing support or whichever of the various terms is used? It is just a way of twisting the arm of the suppliers to get money from them. Looking at the medium to longer term, does the Minister of State think there is a capacity for expansion in the horticultural sector in general? I am sure the €30 million of taxpayers' money that has been invested in the sector since 2000 has been very well spent.

Deputy Morgan has put his finger on it. My understanding is there have not been any cases taken under the Competition Act 2002 and the Competition (Amendment) Act 2006 which prohibited a number of the practices that we hear about but for which we cannot produce evidence because of the fear suppliers have of being blacklisted.

None is likely to be taken in that case.

That is my view. I would be surprised to see it but live in hope. It is not illegal to be dominant but the abuse of dominance has to be proven. One difficulty is the actual legislation because to be 35% of the overall grocery market throughout the country is more than currently exists. We have dominant players but they do not amount to 35%. If that was the percentage for a small town it would be significant but the legislation is not interpreted in that way, rather as a national percentage. Taking action is the area of last resort. The commercial relationships will take some time to repair and the fall-out would be painful for everyone, particularly for those who must take the case in the first place. They would be busy enough. To ensure a supplier is not putting all its eggs in one basket would be the first way of avoiding being caught out and is one thing that has been learnt from bitter experience. I spoke to a farmer recently who has at most 20% of his product going to any one buyer and maintains he has a certain resilience and, to some extent, can tell a buyer where to get off if things become untenable. A diversity of routes to market is essential.

Beyond that, the code of practice should result in a statutory and not a voluntary code. In the UK the attempt to bring in a voluntary code has been objected to and opposed at every turn by the people who are happy not to have any significant control on them, namely, the largest players. It does need to be a statutory code, which requires legislation. It is longer than a voluntary code but in the end we will not have much choice. That has to result in an ombudsman. The nature of that position and whether it works with the amalgamated Competition Authority and National Consumer Agency or stands alone are details, which is why the consultation is taking place until 30 September.

If there is an ombudsman and if it is possible for evidence to be given that would not result in the person being in the spotlight as, in the minds of some, a so-called troublemaker, we might get to the bottom of the illegal practices which, I suspect from anecdotal evidence, are taking place.

Has any process begun within the Department to initiate the code of practice legislation? Are people applying their thoughts to it? Is it under way? Is there any prospect of it coming during our time here, however long that might be?

There is a first draft. This is the basis on which the consultation is taking place and the first draft is based on international best practice and the views of retailers and suppliers in the sector.

I am delighted to welcome the Minister of State. As a grower, this has been the toughest year to put food on the family table because of the weather and I cannot imagine how difficult it must be for commercial growers facing into losses after a desperately tough season.

The issue of labelling has perplexed this committee for some time, especially the switching of labels to say something is Irish when perhaps it is not. Has the Department come across any factual evidence of labels being switched to promote a folksy Irish feel but the produce is from Kenya, Peru or China? The previous witnesses, who are growers, are concerned about labelling and I would like to know if the Department has any hard evidence of that practice to which I referred.

The Commissioner, Mariann Fischer Boel, conducted a review at EU level into anti-competitive practices. Has the Department had good input into that at European level? When can we expect the review? I read a frightening statistic recently that we have approximately 60 days' food left in the world, which is quite terrifying in terms of climate change, war and how we will feed the world.

As Ireland is at the end of a very long distribution chain we have to incentivise ourselves to ensure we become the clean food island of Europe. We need supports for our growers and we have the capacity to do that. Although the Minister of State indicated how few growers there are, it is to be hoped they will survive.

Has there been good joined-up thinking between the Minister of State's Department and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to try to bring forward the idea of making Ireland the food island of Europe and to support our growers and the nutritional health of the nation? He touched on it in regard to food miles. We could all go into any supermarket and pick off asparagus from Kenya, green beans from Peru, apples from China or strawberries from Tenerife, yet sometimes our growers in north Dublin and south Carlow plough their vegetables into the ground. That is a desperate sight which I have seen in the Minister of State's constituency as I drove through. I stopped to inquire of the farmer what he was doing and he asked if I wanted a few cauliflowers. I said I would of course before he ploughed them into the ground because he could not sell them due to the cost of getting them to the routes to market, the weather and because they were not the specific shape for a specific retailer. We have to get over the idea that a vegetable has to be perfectly shaped and that a spud has to be absolutely perfect. It does not matter if it is misshapen slightly if it tastes good.

I compliment the Minister of State on the work he is doing in the farmers' markets and particularly bringing the idea of local food to people in different areas outside the retail sector. However, an issue that needs to be redressed is cooking skills in Ireland. Recently I addressed a seminar of young girls, young single parents, and asked if they ever cooked. They did not know how to prepare a stew or a soup. These are skills that are being lost. It is so easy to whisk something out of the freezer and bang it in the microwave but there is a cost to the buyer, the young women, and also to the nutritional value. We have to look at that issue in tandem with producing good quality food and the routes to market for that food and also to the home skills of cooking. It may be unfashionable to say it, but we are losing those arts. Single parents and young families in Ireland are not cooking any more but are using fast food, due to pressure of time or through certain life problems foisted on them. As a Government we have to look at that issue.

Go raibh maith agat Deputy White. The Deputy has raised some fundamental questions. The Department carries out more than 3,000 inspections per annum at wholesale and retail level to ensure that fruit and vegetables meet the EU quality standards. Since 1 July specific standards apply to various products and general standards to the remainder of those products. All fruit and vegetables have to display country of origin but in the case of Ireland we have not been able to detect any mislabelling although anecdotally I have something to say on that issue. What we have been following up is mislabelling between Cyprus and Israel. Obviously consumers are interested politically in both Cyprus and Israel. That is a matter we have had to follow up in the Department. It is not just Irish produce that comes to light when we talk about labelling. Unfortunately, I have not been able to get evidence but suppliers tell me that the packing of vegetables does not always happen close to where they are grown. In terms of central distribution, it could happen north of the Border. The fresh produce may be sent to the North for packing but mysteriously more may come back than was sent up. I think that is a very serious scenario but it requires the producers who have a problem with that to declare they are not happy with the relationship they have with the person packing or the retailer who is responsible for it.

That is a situation which requires an ombudsman to follow up issues independently and it is one of the reasons we need to make progress quickly. I believe this matter needs to be legislated for but legislation will not satisfy all needs — some of which the Deputy has mentioned — such as the inability of some people, through a lack of time or tradition, to prepare fresh fruit and vegetables. That is why I compliment and thank the farmers who have been prepared to get out and meet the public, be it at a farmers' market, farm shop, school visits to farms or involvement with Incredible Edibles, Meet the Spuds or any of the other schemes I have been driving in the Department. That is when the customer can appreciate what goes into growing, that all carrots are not exactly the same length or size and that there is a way of preparing the food that might not be known to them. A real service is being done to the fruit and vegetable sector by those people on behalf of all farmers, and it must be acknowledged. The same applies to organic farmers. The greater level of, for example, the bee population in organic farming benefits all farmers. We are all in this together.

I have been dealing with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and, as might be expected, I have a very good relationship with that Department because the Minister was formerly the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. There is a greater awareness on the part of the Tánaiste of the problems we are discussing. I am also working closely with the Food Safety Authority, which is responsible for food labelling. In addition to the Department of Health and Children, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is involved because planning is an issue when discussing routes to market in terms of floor space for multiples, farmers' markets or farm shops, all of which come under planning legislation. It must be dealt with across different Departments.

I welcome the Minister of State and his officials. The Minister spoke about alternative routes to market. One of them is farmers' markets, which we are familiar with in north County Dublin. What supports does the Department give to farmers' markets per se? Some of the markets in Dublin North are doing well but others not so well. What does the Minister consider to be the key factors for success? A number of operators have told me that the charges to operate in a particular market are so high that they must work the first couple of hours before they begin to make a profit. It appears to me that where there is an over-emphasis on organic produce, as opposed to a mix of organic and fresh, non-organic produce, the markets are less attractive. Given what I have seen of non-organic vegetables available in north County Dublin, I would not be prepared to pay a premium for organic produce.

The Minister recently set up the organic promotion board. What are his hopes for that board and what would he consider to be a success? How would he describe it as being successful or otherwise? What type of timeframe does he envisage for it? A recent UK report suggested that there are no health benefits attached to organic produce above non-organic produce. Does the Minister consider that a setback to his attempts to promote organic production in Ireland?

The Minister spoke about a code of practice resulting from the various consultations. What exactly does the Minister have in mind? Some of the vegetable producers are at this meeting. What are the Minister's hopes for that code? What should it contain that might be of benefit to the vegetable growers? Should it, for example, contain certainty about recovery of costs at a minimum, with an expectation of a slight premium over recovered costs? Growers in north Dublin and elsewhere should at least have an expectation of being able to recover their costs with a small premium. I would like to see something like that in a code of practice. I would be interested in the Minister of State's thoughts on that.

The Minister of State spoke of the consultation period ending on 30 September, but I would be interested in a target date for completion. I would not like to see it open-ended.

The Minister of State mentioned international best practice and that it should somehow influence the content of the code of practice. I would have thought that the consultation process should be the real driver of what is contained in that code of practice.

In terms of agreement on a code of practice, what sort of weighting will be given to the various stakeholders? If the growers, for example, have certain expectations about a code of practice and if it is the case the retailers do not agree to it, will that be the end of it?

I thank Senator Ryan for his interest and questions. In covering them, perhaps not quite in the order in which he asked them, I will try to link them together.

On his question of how long the process will take after 30 September, I spoke to the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Coughlan, about this and she said she would have it done tomorrow if she could. Realistically, it might best be a question the Senator could ask her. Given his interest in this topic, presumably he will ask the Minister who has actual responsibility for the code because that is really the person who will give him the best answer. I can give him my answer, but I am not the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. I hope the committee will take the opportunity to invite the Minister in. Perhaps it already has.

Senator Ryan spoke of the code of good practice on the farmers' markets and asked what help is available to them. Essentially, farmers' markets are an area of enterprise, like all the shops and any other area of retail we are discussing today. The Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food would be precluded from grant aiding any shop, just like it would be precluded from grant aiding a farmers' market. However, we have gone as far as we possibly can in promoting the merits and information about farmers' markets to the point where I asked all the county and city managers, the cathaoirligh, mayors and chairpersons of strategic policy committees, SPCs, etc., to come together to rediscover the remit of local authorities so that the Department can work with them. We are doing that, for example, in Bord Bia's best in season initiative, the routes to market and the Department's published guidelines for farmers' markets from which it is hoped anyone interested who is a farmer or producer can get assistance through Bord Bia which is open to talking to any farmer and helping in any way possible. Some of that help includes, for example, the flag scheme which Bord Bia, on my request, has been administering. A little like the blue flags for beaches or green flags for schools, it will be a very public declaration of national accreditation that the market meets standards that relate to the local provenance of the food, is working with the environmental health officers and practises good governance.

Senator Ryan spoke of the cost. There is a considerable range of models of farmers' markets. There are farmers' markets such as the one we know in Balbriggan, which is rooted very much in the local authority, the town council, the chamber of commerce and local farmers and fishermen coming together. To that extent, it minimises the costs because it is on the back of pre-existing budget lines for community use. For example, the gazebos are used in Balbriggan and then sometimes make their way down to Morton Stadium in Santry for a football match. There is a communal element to that market which keeps costs down.

In another instance, someone might fill the void in circumstances where a local community has not made moves to bring together local producers and provide that community focus. That person would obviously be seeking to make a living and, therefore, the costs involved would be higher because, for example, a salary would have to be paid. The position varies. I hope that the void to which I refer will not be created and that local communities will, in conjunction with local authorities and chambers of commerce, seek to put markets in place. Such markets are quite common in France and other countries. Ireland is beginning to catch up in this regard or perhaps I should say that it is rediscovering its past because, as members will be aware, most of our towns were previously or are market towns and were home to markets at some point in their history.

There is a diversity in respect of costs and I understand the Senator's point in this regard. However, I hope we will be able to follow the model with the lowest cost rather than that which involves the highest.

An Forás Orgánach is not new, particularly in the sense that it is replacing the steering committee which preceded it. The organic steering group had a two-year term of office, during which it carried out an extremely useful task in pulling together the various stakeholders to devise a strategy for the development of the organic sector. Organic products are part of any healthy, diverse range of produce. One might not want to buy organic produce, but others might wish to do so. That is the choice which consumers are entitled to be in a position to make. The organic sector in other countries is, in general, much better developed than that which obtains here. As of yesterday, 1.2% of agricultural land is used for organic purposes. The figure for Austria is 11% and the European average is between 5% and 6%.

The target I have set is not overly ambitious. However, it is a tough call because it involves a 500% increase on the base from which we started, namely, a figure of less than 1%. It is our aim to reach our target of 5% by 2012. In any circumstances, a 500% increase is fairly ambitious. We need to achieve this target in order that consumers might have some level of clear choice. At present, some 70% of organic produce — I accept that oranges, bananas, etc., which cannot be grown here, are included in this regard — are imported. A huge amount of this produce could be grown here.

There are a number or growers who are developing their activities in this regard in the area of horticulture. Beef producers in particular have taken an interest in this regard. Horticulture is a very demanding sector and those involved, regardless of whether they use organic or conventional methods, must be highly skilled. For those using organic methods, additional labour costs arise because they cannot avail of the option of using the pesticide sprays on which those who use conventional methods rely. That is why there is a difference in price. It should not be a large difference. At present, however, there is a cost-based difference because pesticides will assist in doing the job for less money than would be the case if one were obliged to employ a number of people to physically weed or protect one's crop. Perhaps I should refer to the use of herbicides when discussing this matter.

There is a reason for the difference. The Senator referred to the report which attracted headlines. This was one of a number of reports. Most of the reports which have attracted headlines state there is a higher level of flavonoids or vitamins in organic products. Those who compiled the report to which the Senator referred took a base of significance. In other words, they decided what was significant. Even though something might contain a higher level of vitamins or flavonoids, these individuals decided that this was not significant. People can make up their own minds in respect of this matter. As members are aware, individuals have sensitivities to the various things — good and bad — which they put in their bodies. It is hard to generalise about this but consumer demand is high.

This report examined all previous reports and made a conclusion based on the evidence in all of them.

The report was based on what the group members decided was significant. They said there was no significant difference. They acknowledge there is a difference but they decided what was significant. Some people disagree and buy organic for other reasons. A higher level of biodiversity on an organic farm helps all farms in the context of pollination and that might be one person's belief while others buy organic because of animal welfare issues or because fewer fossil fuels are used. Such fuels are used to make nitrogenous fertiliser, pesticides and herbicides. If manual weeding is practised, fewer fossil fuels are required.

I met organic farmers yesterday and John Purcell, a good herdsman in the beef sector, said most people buy organic meat because of its taste and because it is healthy. I agree with them but this is down to consumer choice. It is a question of having that choice but that is not the case currently because most organic produce is imported.

I thank the Minister of State, Mr. Cassidy and Mr. Roe for attending and assisting us in our deliberations. They made an interesting presentation and offered interesting thoughts. I am glad a personal insight was provided, which is good. Sometimes Minsters become hamstrung in their Departments and they are almost afraid to utter personal views but I am glad the Minister of State has retained that ability. Should he wish, he may observe the proceedings, as two more groups will make presentations. I acknowledge he has a busy schedule but we would be delighted if he could join us. I thank him and his officials.

We will now have a presentation by Mr. John Dockrell, chairman of the Irish Farmers Association field vegetable growers committee. I thank him for his attendance. I draw his attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Oireachtas or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Dockrell provided members with an outline of his contribution, which was useful. I call him to make his presentation.

Mr. John Dockrell

I thank the committee for giving the IFA this opportunity to inform it about the vegetable industry from the farmers' perspective. The IFA has a number of committees, including the vegetable growers committee. I am a vegetable grower and I also pack my produce, like most growers. I am in north County Dublin since 1976 and I have also farmed in County Wexford since 1990. I am chairman of the IFA field vegetable growers committee and I will represent all vegetable growers as best I can today.

The meeting is dealing with two main questions. The first is whether supermarkets are passing on the lower costs of produce to consumers and I believe this is happening in most cases. The second question was whether food suppliers in this country are subjected to unfair demands by our customers, namely, the main retailers, a very open question that can only be understood and addressed by looking at the overall marketplace and cannot be examined in isolation. Given the time available I do not believe we can answer that question. It is complex and requires real answers.

In the current market, retailers are fighting for market share to maintain existing sales. We are, like others, trying to hold on to our income. This is resulting in all retailers adopting a policy of discounting, the consequence of which is that growers are receiving lower returns for their produce. This is normal economics. It is a capitalist system. We are in a recession and as such must take lower prices. I do not believe growers have a major problem with working harder or for longer hours and being more innovative but, as Mr. Ryan mentioned earlier, we need a break-even cost and a small margin. We are flexible people; there is no retailer or business person who will not agree with that. While we are adaptable and flexible, we are finding it very tough.

The following critical issues are now facing the vegetable growing and packing industry. The cost of production in Ireland, as has been already mentioned by Mr. Keeling, is high. Currently we are not in a position to compete directly. This is not unusual. Production in Ireland has become more expensive in the past ten years. That is the way it is. I believe that many of these costs are within Government control and the Government must demonstrate that it is serious about reducing inflated business costs, including labour and energy and improving competitiveness within the economy. I make the point that what is important is not what wage one pays a person but how a business operates as a team, much of which relates to how one manages people and to people taking responsibility for their own jobs. That is a major consideration. The Joint Labour Committee is currently accepting submissions and a matter of concern for all of us is the need for change in terms of how unions and employers might look at things differently for the future. There will be nothing to protect if we do not have jobs. If we are not competitive, we cannot stay in business.

On farm size and practice in Ireland, farm units in Ireland are much smaller than in our main competitor country, the UK, and have a much higher cost base. By way of example, a grower in the UK with 500,000 acres would have the same overhead costs as would a grower here with 100 acres. That is a fact. There are not many businesses as well run as Keelings. They do a good job and are the exception to the rule. They are of a certain size and as such can operate competitively. Also, its growers put in a great deal of their own time and management. Irish growers, of a smaller scale, are quite successful. However, we have hurdles to overcome, some of which relate to the size of our operations.

On the weather issue, we are almost paralysed in terms of how the weather has affected us during the past three years. We grow spinach. In 2006, we lost all the spinach we grew from September onwards. We lost every bit of spinach we grew, although we had been expecting to harvest for the whole of September and October. While I do not have the figures with me for 2007, we lost approximately from 40% to 50% of our crop. I have the figures for 2008 and these give an idea of how bad the weather has been and are worth looking at. We expected a yield of 112 tonnes, but only sold 81 tonnes, 39 tonnes of which we imported and 42 of which were our own. Therefore, we lost approximately 65% of the crop. Subsequent to 2008 we stopped growing spinach because, owing to the weather conditions and seeming climatic change, and not wishing to jump on the climate change bandwagon, certain crops have become very difficult to grow. These figures give an example of what has occurred.

The weather has been a major factor for us. Growers build up reserves over a number of years and invest the money they make in the next year's crop. They keep building up reserves until they actually own the following year's crop. In practice, this is how we all work. However, since 2007 there has been no profit. In the past two years we have been affected by weather conditions. Because of this, many growers have not been able to carry profit forward and are now in a situation where they face credit difficulties.

After three extremely difficult seasons, Irish vegetable farmers now find themselves in severe credit difficulties. This is as a result of a combination of factors, including changes in agri-merchant credit systems. These have been badly hit and some of them are seeking to get out of the business. The weather is another factor and there are extra pressures from financial institutions. These do not want to put money into risky situations and see growing vegetables as quite risky, especially considering weather and market pressures. The main difficulty for farmers, however, is loss of profits due to crop losses and the greater need for credit because of this.

With regard to securing a commitment to a sustainable future, there must be recognition of the base costs of production within Ireland. I think we all understand how important this is. We cannot sit here and pretend we can continue to produce everything at the same costs as others in Europe and England, our nearest competitor. We must understand the effects of below cost selling on growers' returns. This undermines the value of food It might be said we exist in a free market and it is up to the retailer to decide the price at which he sells the product. However, the food cannot be produced at that price. When consumers see below cost selling, they feel they were being overcharged. When competitors see below cost selling they feel they are losing market share. Even if competitors are not hitting one's customers and not asking a grower to fund below cost selling, which is true, they must still fund it against the other retailers. The net effect is that below cost selling destroys the market for Irish produce.

Retailers are committed to supporting the growing and purchase of quality Irish produce. This commitment must carry with it a responsibility to recognise our cost of production and deliver a sustainable return to vegetable growers to ensure the viability of this supply and the industry. There is no God given right for us to be in business. We are out there to do a day's work and compete and we recognise that. However, we would like to be given a fair vehicle through which to do that. No retailer has stood up and openly said that Irish produce is too dear and that he or she therefore intends to market imported product henceforth. Therefore, by default, one would believe they actually wanted Irish produce. However, if one wants Irish produce one needs to deliver on certain things. Many of them have been mentioned today. Some of them are down to labelling. Some are down to volume, which has been indirectly mentioned. The Minister of State said we are losing volume. Buying Irish produce needs a commitment to the full volume we can grow within the production season and a price that allows us to sustain the business and move forward.

Imports continue to dominate the marketplace. This season, imported products are displacing Irish farm produce and eliminating sales of Irish lines in the wholesale and processing markets. One must understand that our market is different. This is an important point that often is not made. When product is in surplus in the UK, Holland or elsewhere in Europe, that surplus finds its way to a market which pays more money. Our market has paid more money from a retail point of view and indirectly from a wholesale point of view because over the years it has been more expensive to produce in Ireland. Right now there is an ample amount of product in the UK. The very big producers in the UK who supply the supermarkets now have a surplus of product which they are effectively dumping on our market. While there is nothing wrong with this, it is not sustainable and it is not possible to build a supply base for food in the long term. There is a dilemma as to how to deal with that.

The last point was about effective labelling. With all due respect the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has been totally remiss over many years in carrying out its job. I will not personalise anything. However, we could be 100% in terms of whether a product is Irish. It needs to be done practically where people actually check the product. It is not difficult to check loads coming in. It is very easy to do it if there are the will and intention to do it. Given the resources among those here, I cannot believe it is not possible to get together and come up with a strategy that would actually kill that in the morning. We are not saying there is anything wrong with imported product, but if there are people importing and the volume of product being sold is such that the Irish produce is less than it but we know it is being imported and sold as Irish, there must be a mechanism whereby we have clarity on whether it is Irish or imported.

I thank Mr. Dockrell for his presentation. Members of this committee are acutely aware of the labelling issue and if we could do something about it this evening, we would not wait until the morning. We do not have that competency, but we are constantly pressing the Department on the matter. It is not just in the area of horticulture but also in areas of poultry, meat and other products.

Regarding efficiency, do growers share, for example, machinery? I know the Dublin Meath Growers Society is a society. However, is that a co-operative format? Is there another level of co-operation to save machinery cost by, for example, buying jointly to enhance the competitiveness and reduce the cost of the product?

Mr. John Dockrell

That is a good question. The simple answer is that there is always room for sharing. I work very closely with a few growers in a private capacity. We share machinery in a small way. We share information. We help each other. We do not compete directly with each other. It might be a brassica grower or a parsnip grower. I mainly specialise in carrots, iceberg lettuce and cabbage. There is a case to be made for sharing expertise and equipment as well.

I come from the seafood sector. Almost everyone in that sector stands back to back. No one wants to talk to each other. They all have their arms around stuff. They are very reluctant to jointly buy packaging, for example. I do not understand why three or four of them cannot get together to buy packaging, thereby saving some costs. I am not familiar with the detail of the horticulture sector. Is there a similar back-to-back culture in that sector, or is there more of a spirit of co-operation?

Mr. John Dockrell

The culture of working together mentioned by the Deputy has not been fully experienced in the sector.

Mr. John Dockrell

I have often thought about this. The north Dublin growers movement, which could have been a great entity, did not survive. We used to put produce into it when we were involved in part-time farming. Many of us do not come from a co-operative background. Every grower starts off as an individual, at little markets. We build on that in different ways. Those who start small operations tend to go into new crops and different things because many people are already growing the main crops. When we started out, we grew early parsnips and early lettuce, for example. The nature of our business causes us all to become quite independent and resourceful. In my experience, it is not in our nature to depend on one another to a great extent.

I thank Mr. Dockrell for his presentation. Deputy Morgan has already asked about the need to improve competitiveness, by sharing costs, etc., which is an issue I had intended to raise. Mr. Dockrell mentioned spinach as an example of a crop that is more difficult to grow. What other crops have been put aside for greater consideration because of our climate?

Mr. John Dockrell

We have carried out research, to be fair. When we went to England, we took advice from one of the top baby leaf growers on the UK. We were very careful about going at it. We got good support from everybody, including all our retailers and consolidators. Everybody gave us full support with the marketing of the project, which was not affected in any way. It is a true spinach, rather than a perpetual spinach. It does not really have the ability to take heavy rain or hailstones. We were depending on having the kind of summer we had before 2006. We had five or six pretty good summers in that period. We would not have had a problem if the weather had been better. We have learned more about the need to change and adapt. Perhaps climate change is affecting Ireland, which has a particular position in the world. While I do not want to hone in on anyone, I should mention that indoor industries have some control over weather conditions. The strawberry sector has virtually moved completely indoors. As it cannot risk its crop, which is expensive to grow, it has moved it indoors. I do not suggest that all crops can move indoors, but we will certainly have to stop growing some crops outdoors.

Certain crops that are not being grown here, such as Swiss chard, are much hardier than real spinach, as opposed to perpetual spinach, because the stalk and the leaf can both be used.

Mr. John Dockrell

I went to the United States to research crops. The climate in California is better than it is in Ireland, unfortunately. It probably was not the best——

Mr. John Dockrell

I am not being smart. When I went to the US, I examined all the crops that are being grown there. There is an opportunity to look at the crops. Food is being sold on the basis that everything is available 24 hours a day, 12 months of the year. There is no recognition of the fact that certain foods are seasonal.

There is no seasonality.

Mr. John Dockrell

It is not based on the need for a nutritious and balanced diet. What can one say?

Is consideration being given to starting to grow a new series of crops? This summer was the third wet summer in a row, which is terrible.

Mr. John Dockrell

If the Deputy can find a guy who has any money left to invest in new crops, I would be willing to grow those crops. I am waiting.

My question has been answered.

We are running a little behind time.

I thank Mr. Dockrell for his presentation, which demonstrated the considerable knowledge he has attained from his experiences over the years. It is obvious that he is wearing two hats at today's meeting — he is here as a grower in his own right and as a representative of growers.

Mr. John Dockrell

That is correct.

My questions refer to Mr. Dockrell's representative role. What is the position in terms of the ability of vegetable growers to recover their costs and secure a margin to enable them to have a sustainable relationship with retailers? Mr. Dockrell referred to difficulties such as poor weather, smaller farm sizes in Ireland as compared to the United Kingdom and cost disadvantages. Is it possible for Irish growers to compete or will the difficulties to which Mr. Dockrell referred persist? In the past, growers typically responded to this problem by entering into co-operative arrangements. Mr. Dockrell referred to the Dublin north co-operative at Blakes Cross and noted that co-operatives come and go and may not necessarily have the management skills required to move to a new level. I ask him to elaborate.

Mr. John Dockrell

The Senator has posed two questions. I understood his first question to be whether a model is in place to keep the growing base intact or whether it will be possible to create such a model.

That is correct.

Mr. John Dockrell

We are dependent on consumer support for Irish produce as without it we would go out of business. Notwithstanding what people say, the consumer has, for the most part, continued to buy Irish produce. We must find some way of opening the book to show that our current position is not due to a single factor but has been caused by the recession, weather conditions, retail price wars, etc. I hope it will be possible for retailers to join other stakeholders at a forum to enable us to carry out a thorough examination of what is happening.

My concern is that if action is not taken in the next two months, we will not have a growers' base next year. If we lose a number of key players, or even small players, this year and the problem escalates to the point that we lose several more players next year, we will not have the critical mass required to sustain the supply chain. Without such critical mass, there will be no need for Irish produce. We have a short window of opportunity, probably extending until the end of October, within which it must be acknowledged that the industry faces disaster. There is no point in engaging in a blame game. We must be positive and ask whether a solution can be found. If people realise how bad things are on the ground, we will receive support.

Who needs to address the issue?

Mr. John Dockrell

I would like the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to assume this role. I tried to contact the Minister a long time ago but clearly, given recent developments, he is a busy man. While I accept our industry is small, somebody must take responsibility. It would be a good start if the Minister were to do so but we need leadership at the highest level, including from the Taoiseach.

Many of the top class growers I know give everything to be efficient and do their job well but weather conditions have murdered their business. The recession has also kicked in over the past year and people no longer have as much money as they once did. There area also other factors at work. The solution is to sit down, admit we have a serious problem and ask how we can address it. The forum to which I refer should be an open one at which we could at least open the book to show how bad matters are. If we admit how bad the position is, we will be able to come up with some solutions.

We need to secure credit and commitment for volume. I deal with customers every day and I have good relationships with them. However, one cannot deal with this at that level. One must deal with it at the very highest level, namely, with the people who own the companies. Most of the buyers with which one deals want one's business to survive. These individuals have a tough job to do and have targets to meet. Their performance is measured upon how profitably they run the area in which they are involved. Some 90% of them want one's business to survive because they realise that, in the long term, this is how it should be done. We are in a terribly difficult position.

What was the Senator's second question?

It related to co-operatives, their nature and size and the fact that, in general, they have not been successful.

Mr. John Dockrell

Some years ago, in conjunction with Mr. Jim Rooney, I was involved with a producer group which exported cauliflowers. I do not have a comprehensive answer to offer the Senator in respect of his question. If the European Union realised what is actually happening to food production in local areas throughout Ireland and decided to examine how it considers issues relating to competition in the context of the Competition Authority and the fact that Bord Bia cannot represent us directly and can only become involved if we supply 50% of the funding, and in the context of food security, it might come to the conclusion that it must change the way it perceives competition. It is not that difficult to discover what it really costs to grow vegetables in any given place.

As previously stated, there is a narrow window of opportunity, perhaps five to ten years, in which we can learn to grow food in the absence of cheap oil and cheap fertilisers and all of the inputs that result from such oil. There is a grower base in this country which is well resourced and very committed. However, this base is going to require leadership at Government level because, as has proven to be the case in other areas, in the absence of well structured regulation, people's businesses cannot flourish. The opposite of the latter is actually happening.

From speaking to growers in north County Dublin, I am aware that some who are involved in the sector may not be involved next season and will definitely not be involved the following season.

Mr. John Dockrell

That is the case. Any member of our organisation could find himself or herself in the same position. There would only need to be a tiny degree of movement in an adverse direction and we would be on the wrong side of the line and would not have the ability to recover. Large or small, it does not matter. We are all in that position.

Mr. Dockrell is chairperson of the IFA's vegetable growers committee. In his representative capacity, has he ever been presented with direct or anecdotal evidence with regard to his association's members being approached by major retailers or supermarkets in respect of so-called hello money or money relating to space on supermarket shelves?

Mr. John Dockrell

No, I have not come across that. Like everyone else, we carry out promotions. For example, in September we might carry out a back-to-school promotion in respect of carrots. In August, we might have a promotion relating to iceberg lettuce. These are the main promotions in which we have been involved. Such promotions might involve price reductions or an extra percentage of the product in question. I no longer see the one-for-one promotions that used to occur.

Prices have fallen to quite a degree and there are value lines in respect of, for example, 1 kg packs were not available heretofore. In the past, such value lines related to big packs in the main. There is no longer the same need for promotions. When one sells a product at a price below the cost of production, that is not a promotion. As stated, such practices make it extremely difficult to remain in business.

Is that not an unfair trading practice which is being imposed upon growers? If there is a promotion offering two for the price of one, is it not ultimately the producer or the grower who pays for it?

Mr. John Dockrell

It would be fair to say that one pays for it, but one factors it into the costs and one ensures that one comes out the right side.

With respect, I do not think Mr. Dockrell has got my point. The supplier is selling his product to the retailer, but in the next minute the retailer is telling him that as he is doing a promotion he wants two kilograms of spinach for the price of one kilogram because he is doing a "two for one" promotion. The retailer is in the dominant position, because the supplier does not have a large market outlet elsewhere. Our understanding was that the supplier had to carry the brunt of the cost of the promotion? The last time representatives from the IFA appeared before the committee, I thought the issue of "two for one" was raised by them.

Mr. John Dockrell

To be honest, there are very few "two for one" promotions in my sector. I do not remember doing a "two for one" promotion. I have done plenty of promotions where there are extra fills and price reductions.

I was only using that as an example.

Mr. John Dockrell

If one hones in on simplistic questions, one gets simple answers that do not give a result. If the purpose of the Chairman's question is to get an answer and then see how the committee can help the vegetable industry, then the questioning must come from a different angle. I could stand up and say that retailers do this that or the other, but retailers do not do that with me, but can possibly do it elsewhere.

I see promotions at different times of the year in different products, which I think is madness, such as promoting Brussels sprouts at Christmas. Another customer I do not deal with was promoting iceberg lettuce on 1 June for 49 cent. I will not mention retailers but I will mention the product. That is below-cost selling. When the rest of the producers were ready to launch their product, it made it harder for our customers. At the end of the day our customers supported us and did not take the price down, but the reality is that the more money they lose, they end up having to look for it from the sector. The Chairman is correct. The Government has been very slow to deal with the consequences of below cost selling. I can understand that from the political point of view that if it may look as if the Government is promoting dearer food, that does not look good. The Government must explain to people that if they do not support Irish goods, they will be paying higher taxes.

I thank Mr. Dockrell for appearing before the committee. He has been in the audience for a considerable period and has made a very interesting submission that has assisted us in our deliberations. He is now excused as a witness but he may remain to listen to the next group.

I now welcome two of the board members from the Dublin Meath Growers, Mr. Colm Warren and Mr. John Hogan. I apologise for the delay in calling them.

I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Oireachtas or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. That caveat applies to all witnesses and I now invite Mr. Warren to make his submission.

Mr. Colm Warren

I thank the joint committee for the opportunity to make a statement. I will go straight into it to try to provide members with an idea of how events in the past few months have had an impact on our co-operative.

Dublin Meath Growers Co-operative, DMG, broke new ground when it was formed as a producer group in 1987. This group then bypassed the wholesale traders and commenced trading directly with Quinnsworth, which at that time was one of the biggest supermarket groups operating in Ireland. Since then, DMG has traded successfully with supermarkets over the following 22 years. It was successful and was supported wholeheartedly by the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Bord Bia and the EEC. The financial help given by these bodies enabled DMG to create a world-class distribution centre. DMG is the only vegetable co-operative in Ireland and it is owned and managed by the growers. Tesco took over the Quinnsworth stores approximately 11 years ago and at the time was greatly enthused that it could buy direct from a growers' co-operative. The DMG relationship with Tesco grew so much that the latter indicated we would be obliged to build extra capacity and update our refrigeration and packing facilities. The official opening of this facility was held in September 2008 and was attended by representatives from Tesco. These representatives spoke glowingly of the facility and assured all present of a bright future and increased future business with Tesco. This facility cost DMG €5 million to complete.

In November 2008, two months later, that picture changed completely. Suffice it to say that after protracted negotiations with Tesco, we were told that we were too expensive and they ceased trading with us in February 2009. From November 2008 to February 2009, Tesco systematically reduced our orders. As we had legal obligations to staff and growers, we lost €600,000 over that period trying to meet them. From a staff of 80 people, we now are reduced to two or three voluntary members as all the others were made redundant. Despite being asked to give us some recompense for building our new facility, mainly for its benefit, Tesco rejected the proposal outright. This is a highly abbreviated account of what happened, which was given to indicate to members that we have extensive experience of dealing with supermarkets and with one in particular, namely, Tesco. We have seen all sides of their trading practices, both the beneficial and the ugly.

We cannot dispute the reason for DMG's rejection as a high cost distributor by Tesco as we were not privy to alternative quotations. However, the system that replaced ours beggars belief. Irish growers supply their produce to a distributor in Swords. This produce then is hauled up to Northern Ireland to a company called Gilfresh Produce. It then is processed through their systems and despatched back to Swords or Donabate to be distributed to Tesco stores in the Republic. How that system is more economical than ours, in which we distributed from The Ward, County Dublin, beats all my economic criteria.

In the Irish Independent of 29 May 2009, a journalist claimed to have seen an internal report from Tesco that stated that a key objective was to ensure its policy of taking deliveries directly from UK suppliers would remain unnoticed by the Irish public. The quotation was “to deliver an efficient value chain on key categories, that is invisible to the Irish customer”. I wonder what else the Irish consumer does not know. Why the mysterious trip of Irish vegetables to the North? It is invisible to the Irish customer.

DMG is known to be fully supportive of the Irish grower, which is why it was rejected by Tesco. This report is not about getting revenge on Tesco. We deliberately waited until the white heat of our anger dissipated. What happens to DMG is of little consequence nationally except to those who lost their jobs. It is just a symptom of the disease that now infects our retail sector.

As concerned citizens of Ireland, we will try to illustrate what is happening in our industry, what will happen in the near future with consequences for the Exchequer, to Irish customers and to the horticulture industry and the retail trade. Tesco PLC is the third largest retailer in the world in sales terms and the second in terms of profit. It is British controlled and operates in Europe, the Far East and America. It is about 50 times larger than the entire Irish economy. These are some of the comments made in The Irish Times of 12 May. The article states that profits were €248 million last year and are projected to rise to €255 million this year. This indicates the massive size and resources behind the company. Another significant fact that has emerged is that Tesco’s profit margin in Ireland was 9.3% last year, while the equivalent margin in Britain was 6% in the parent company, a much lower rate. Tesco acknowledged that the documents had been drawn up internally but stated that the data was inaccurate and out of date.

Tesco clearly has the resources and the profits from its operations in Ireland to fund its cost-cutting activities but this is first applied to the suppliers to cut margins that are already lean. This has resulted in businesses closing down and cutting staff numbers. DMG is one example of the impact of this, which is far greater, impinging on many more.

We will try to explain using a simple exercise with round figures. Assuming that 100 people are made redundant, the cost to the Government is as follows. The weekly dole payment of €250 for 100 people in a year amounts to €1,300,000. The loss of income tax to the Exchequer amounts to €280,000 and the loss of PRSI amounts to €360,000. Adding the three sums amounts to a figure of €1,940,000 or, let us say, €2 million approximately. The income tax and PRSI figures are based on what was paid by DMG's 80 employees. With 100 employees, it would have been greater. It is estimated that up to 100,000 jobs may be lost in the retail trade within two years if the present practice of Tesco and others continues. Leading economist Jim Power of Friends First warned that the above was the likely outcome.

If 100 jobs cost €2 million in funds or lost revenues then 100,000 jobs will cost €2,000 million. There are simple but stark figures which illustrate the scenario facing this country. We may argue that only 80,000 will lose their jobs but the Department of Finance will still have to find a significant amount of money. Where will that be found? It will be found by taking €2,000 million from the taxpayer, in other words, the Irish consumer. How many job losses have already occurred as a result of this insatiable rush to get more margins? The losers are the unemployed, the Government, the decreasing number of employees and the Irish consumers. They are all subsidising the predatory nature of these supermarkets.

What will be the future if this is allowed to continue? Irish retail stores do not have the resources or size to compete with this British giant and hence there will be casualties. Less competition means one dominant chain and the supply chain is already being decimated with many medium or small indigenous companies having gone or going out of business. These are jobs that must be retained in Ireland as they underpin the entire economy. We have 300,000 commercial growers left in Ireland. If one quarter of these are still in operation in two years we will be lucky. In essence, there will not be a sufficiently strong base to maintain a healthy competitive environment here, so when sterling rises to a more realistic value it will be goodbye to low prices, people will charge what they want and there will not be sufficient home producers to counter such actions.

There is little point in presenting the committee with all of these problems without suggesting a solution. With due respect to committee members, the many exhortations of Government and many other bodies to stop these practices have, alas, been largely ignored. To a large corporation like Tesco commencing such an operation is very deliberate and its main concern is to increase margins as margin is the dominant force in these companies. When margins decrease alarm bells ring and the company will sit up and take notice and action.

To stop this economic madness, the Irish consumer must be alerted to the true cost of these low prices and how they subsidise them through their taxes. The cost of maintaining the retail sector unemployed should be highlighted. How many jobs have been exported to Britain, along with the €2 billion worth of food and drink exports which Tesco claims? This claim does not justify its present actions which are destroying the very people now employed in producing the €2 billion euro worth of exports.

I have circulated to members, cuttings from various newspapers. In particular, I draw their attention to the articles published in The Irish Times by Paul Cullen. This is the first time that the secrecy with which these firms operate has been breached. Tesco has acknowledged the articles’ authenticity and its only comment was on the accuracy and datedness of the data used. The intent behind the giant multiple’s pursuit of its competitors and supply base is not denied. It is chilling to consider the consequences of its actions for this small country. It is also telling that all this activity has to be withheld from the Irish consumer. Tesco should be given the opportunity to discontinue its activities and, if it does not, Irish consumers should be given full disclosure and they should be requested not to support the company. Clearly, the company fears a backlash from Irish consumers.

For the future, I suggest that the committee consider establishing an association of supermarket suppliers. Such a body would negotiate a fair trading regime on behalf of suppliers who recognise each other's honest requirements. Disputes and unfair practices or demands could be brought to this body for a negotiated resolution. I also strongly support the Minister of State in his efforts to give the Ombudsman statutory powers to enforce compliance.

We have dealt with Quinnsworth and Marks & Spencer without experiencing significant problems, even though they have the same or greater quality requirements as Tesco.

We have heard a very sobering presentation. I am saddened to learn what has happened. Tesco's representatives have appeared before this committee and we have tried to draw them on their profit margins and methods of doing business in the Republic but I have to admit that we did not get very far. We will invite them back to the committee, however.

In regard to the €5 million needed to complete Mr. Warren's facility and his reduction of staff to two, how is his business managing? Is he supplying other retail outlets and how viable is Dublin Meath Growers? I compliment him on his brochure, which is beautifully produced and includes very enticing photographs. That is merely an illustration, however, and Mr. Warren needs to see money in the bank and a return to profitability. We can certainly follow up on the distressing issues he outlined today regarding the transport of food to and from the North and his personal experience with this multiple. On a positive note, how is he managing to survive? I hope he is able to tell us that he is supplying a considerable number of retailers.

Mr. Colm Warren

Our brochure was produced in better days. It was deliberately given to the committee to indicate the range and quality of services the co-operative offered to the retail sector on behalf of Irish growers.

Over the course of our 22 years we have had extremely good relationships with our bank and with the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and other bodies, which have been very supportive of us in our troubles. I compliment the bank because in the present economic problems, in which everybody is on edge, it has given us facilities to continue despite the fact that we have very little business in comparison to what we enjoyed with the multiples.

Our aim is to take another step in history and step over the supermarkets to go direct to the consumer. In the past six or eight months we have been trying to solve the problems created by our withdrawal in February 2009, which placed extreme pressure on us. We had to remain viable and secure the ongoing goodwill which we had from suppliers and growers, and that has been a long struggle.

We will contact the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and will make proposals which will give us another supply chain to the Irish consumer. Members have heard from various parties, such as Keelings and the chairman of the IFA, Mr. John Dockrell, on the problems facing Irish growers and I concur with what they said because those problems are immense. Until the predatory actions of huge conglomerates are ended there will not be any real developments in horticulture. We will have to have a straight pathway to the Irish consumer, one which is fair and recognises the work and effort put in by growers.

Previous speakers expressed supreme confidence in the Irish consumer and we concur. We have helped in a farmers' market and the response of consumers has been incredible. We have learned that we are not an overhead, as has been claimed by the supermarkets. The overhead lies in the supermarket — not in the growing end of the business. We sell quality Irish vegetables at little over farm gate prices and the enthusiasm of consumers for our products has been extraordinary.

I thank Dublin Meath Growers for attending and giving a comprehensive and extremely powerful presentation. It is an awful pity we did not have representatives from Tesco before us to respond to the presentation. I am sure we will ask the company to make such a response in due course and it will be interesting to hear what it says.

There was a comment which referred to November 2008, when after protracted negotiations with Tesco the growers were told they were too expensive. What was going on at that stage, how did the growers feel and what was Tesco looking for with respect to what was being delivered? It would be useful to have a sense of that process.

Mr. Colm Warren

My colleague, Mr. Hogan, would have been a central figure in these negotiations. At that point the process changed from having a seasonal price for produce — which is the only way to work with regard to seasonal crops — to Tesco seeking weekly quotations for produce. Having weekly quotations meant one could win or lose an order but with crops coming into season, if a particular crop was lost the member would be told that the crop could not be sold because we were not cheap enough. The next time we would either have to go in cheaper or lose out again. The tendering process tended to shove prices right down as a result. We would go in at our keenest point to try to move the crop.

Operating on the basis of a co-operative, we lost half our order in November and from the 80 staff, 40 were twiddling their thumbs until we knew that we got the order for the next week. It was an unsatisfactory position and the supermarket knew about it. It has been long enough in the game to know about seasonal products. It also knows that we would not have known who our competitors were or the prices they quoted. We went in with a very keen quote and we were not to know that we were the keenest, although the supermarket was looking for further quotes. We were up against a blank wall, banging our heads off it.

Mr. John Hogan

The volumes we did not get tended to go to foreign suppliers, mainly from the UK but also from Northern Ireland. As the previous speakers mentioned, our cost base in Ireland is such that we would find it impossible either in the short or long term to compete with such a position. As has already been mentioned, scale of operation is a significant factor in Ireland and has been for a great number of years in which I have been involved in this business. I presume it always will be.

The tendering process was most unsatisfactory because the notice given on this new procedure did not leave us enough time to adjust and the halving of the orders so rapidly in some cases made it financially unviable. Aligned to this is the issue of the growers, who have been committed to us for 22 and 23 years and particularly since this retailer came to Ireland. I was involved in a planned programme we had for those growers which was to have taken place last November, December or January of that growing season. Most of this happened some six or eight months later. We then had the dilemma that the grower would be left with a great amount of product for which he might not find any other market. The co-operative took a joint approach with the growers to try to support them financially until the end of the season. As Mr. Warren mentioned, we ended up doing business with Tesco at the end of February mainly because most, though not all, crops had finished and we were not going to ask the growers to continue to sow new seeds for another season in this very unsatisfactory situation.

I wish to put two questions. Did Dublin Meath Growers do any work with, or supply any other supermarket or other major retailers——

Mr. John Hogan

In that period our two main supermarkets——

——such as Dunnes Stores——

Mr. John Hogan

——were Tesco and Marks & Spencer. It would be true to say there were times when we were in talks with some of the other retailers but in Ireland the system tends to be that each retailer has its own suppliers. It is worth saying also that throughout those years we were in an expansion process with the two retailers we had and we needed to ensure we were fulfilling all their needs before we contemplated negotiating with another retailer.

What is staggering is thatthere were fine speeches at the opening of the new facility on 12 September 2008. Tesco was there and it obviously was a significant event to open this magnificent facility. In its press release Tesco stated that it was looking forward to the state-of-the-art facility that would position DMG at the forefront as Tesco worked to “satisfy the needs of the everchanging customer of the 21st century”. Surely Tesco must have known the situation at that stage. We will put that question to the company and give it an opportunity to reply. That is only natural justice. The delegates’ points will be put to Tesco and it will be entitled to formulate a reply. We will put some hard questions to that company and to others. We are inviting six major outlets and we may ask DMG and other suppliers to attend also. We will not stop until we get to the root of this because that is our legislative function. As the delegates can see, it is a complex issue and problem and I will not shy away from that. This committee will not be deterred in its quest to get to the bottom of the matter.

I am perplexed in that it was showtime on 12 September 2008 and blowtime by the middle of November, eight weeks later. I am not a business person and do not have that aptitude but——

Mr. Colm Warren

The Chairman may be perplexed but we were bombed out by what occurred to us. It was totally ruthless because we had been encouraged to put €5 million investment into this building. We would like to invite the Chairman and the committee to see that building, see it is bricks and mortar, and see how well——

Mr. Warren can rest assured the committee will take up that invitation. Where did his group get its money? Was it from the capital reserves which it had built up over its 20 or so years?

Mr. Colm Warren

It was partially our own funding, partially borrowing and we also received grant aid. This company threw the gauntlet down, not only to the Dublin Meath Growers but the facility was funded by the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the EEC. When we broached this subject with the company we were told by the chief executive officer, Tony Keohane, that it was a bad commercial decision. He had bought shops throughout the country that he would now not buy. He conveniently forgot that I did not influence his buying of the shops as much as his people influenced us——

How did it influence and encourage DMG? I could go out and say, "It is a fine building, you are doing a fine job and have 100 growers coming in producing great carrots, spinach or lettuce", but it might just be idle words. Was there more to it than that? Was it said that new facilties were needed because consumer demands and preferences were becoming more fastidious and the company needed to meet that? Was it the case that if DMG was not able to meet that, it had to move on? If it produced a building that was built to the rigorous specifications laid down by the Department and the EU, was there any encouragement or indication given that they would be with it in partnership?

A statement referred to partnership and said it was "a key ingredient in Ireland's success and Ireland's partnership with DMG was a success story too, and, it is to be hoped, one that will grow and grow and stay as fresh as when it started. It remains for me to wish DMG continued success and say well done to all". They are the final words.

Was there any written request from Tesco to build this facility? In fairness to Tesco, we have to put these questions to the delegation.

Mr. John Hogan

One rarely gets anything in writing from a retailer and I would not expect anything from Tesco.

That shows my ignorance of the sector.

Mr. John Hogan

It is not normal and most companies would find that. One builds up a relationship over a number of years. We were dealing with Tesco for some 11 years. When we started — a time at which I was very much involved — our facility was not up to date. We were advised by the personnel who visited us on a number of occasions that certain things would need to be addressed, which were duly done in the autumn of 1997.

For six or eight years afterwards, things went on as normal. It came to a stage where our volumes were growing year on year and indications were given to us that if we did not have more space, packaging and machinery, it might limit our scope for the future and that would be a normal request from any retailer. We have to take ownership and responsibility. Those comments were made and we had to make decisions about what we wanted to do. As we were supposedly working in partnership all through those years, one takes the comments on board in good faith and goes on.

When somebody convinces one to do something, one has to make the decision oneself. I would use the term "encouragement". We made those decisions collectively and now find ourselves where we are. Mr. Warren made the point that the main reason we are here today is not to lament the demise of DMG, unfortunate as it is, because for 22 years we played a significant part in helping the industry and united a lot of growers. We raised the bar and hope to raise it again — that is our intention.

Our immediate reason for being here is to help those in the dilemma in which they now find themselves. I will not restate what has been said already. I stated that we have had six winters in three years and this one has been the worst. That, aligned with the recession, which a previous speaker mentioned, the depression on prices — we are more familiar with field vegetables which are in the region of 16% to 25%, depending on the crop — and the credit crunch means we are seriously worried about the number of growers that anybody will have to represent here next year.

We are pleading with the committee to correspond with whatever Departments are available in examining the immediate situation because there may not be a long-term future for the industry. Growers will be in a dilemma between now and next February. As mentioned by Mr. John Dockrell, the IFA representative, growers are very resilient and extremely strong. I am a grower; one puts one's head down and one rows on. We have had a bad year or two in my lifetime during the past 30 years but there was always the release that one could approach one's bank manager and convince him some way or another that during the past five years the books balanced and one made one's payments. I will not say anymore because everybody present knows this season will not work.

I wish to make one or two brief comments. All of us will accept that Tesco is a very powerful player in the Irish market. Has Dublin Meath Growers confronted Tesco since this episode and has it sought to do business with it now or in the future? The delegates said they have confidence in the Irish consumer. When Tesco appeared before the committee it told us it had confidence in the Irish consumer. In regard to competitive pricing, is it true that multiplies are sourcing their fresh vegetables from outside the country and importing them into Ireland and that they find it more competitive to do it that way? That does not make sense but it would appear they are going for the most competitive price they can get.

We spoke earlier about hello money. As an organisation, has DMG been given concessions on the shelves of the multiplies while trading with them? Alternatively, was it promised into the future that if it developed this centre it would be given concessions in pricing and promotions in the supermarkets?

Mr. John Hogan

I will attempt to answer some of the Deputy's questions. I am not familiar with any retailer in Ireland, including Tesco, who gives anything for free, be it shelf space or anything else. Normally — I think this was alluded to by previous speakers — in negotiations at the start of the year in spring, one commits to supplying X amount of crops at certain volumes based on a strong indication on price. The question has been asked in many ways today by many people. I understand people's position because I was there. Where one does business continually with a retailer, one is unlikely to expose any of the arrangements one may or may not have with those people. We are in a slightly different position having been there but not in it now. Hello money has been mentioned here many times. It must be 15 or 20 years since I heard as much about hello money. It is a formulation of words in regard to what goes on. It can be a long-term arrangement, a marketing tool, marketing assistance, additional promotions or anything one wants to call it. It is a formulation of words and almost every time one meets those people it is never the same. It is in negotiations and, perhaps, one is asked for this but it is up to one to decline. In the world in which we live, we know we are among competitors in supplying this product and one has to make up one's mind as to whether one is prepared to provide it. That is the best answer I can give. All members are people of the world and can read between the lines. I would like to be clear and say that requests are most definitely made. I do not believe at this moment in time that there is anyone in this room who has not had requests made and how they dealt with them is their business. How we dealt with them, how we deal with them now and how we will deal with them in future may always vary. Are the requests that are most definitely made pressurised? Yes. If one wishes to concede, one will. One will do that if one wishes to hold one's business and if one does not, one gives up one's business.

I think I saw Mr. Warren on television talking about confronting Tesco. There was a debate on it one evening on the television. Perhaps it was not Mr. Warren.

Mr. Colm Warren

I gave an interview on "Morning Ireland".

I thank the representatives of Dublin Meath Growers for coming to the meeting and for being so patient. I saw them waiting in the Visitors Gallery earlier. We appreciate their patience and help with our deliberations. We will probably take up the invitation. Some morning they might see an eco-bus arriving — I hope we can get it — to visit and have a look around.

Mr. Colm Warren

Perhaps you will tell us, Chairman. We would like to have the kettle on.

We are tea drinkers and we will need something to refresh us early in the morning.

Mr. Colm Warren

I enclosed a number of photocopies of newspaper articles with our submission. I recommend that the members read them. It is the amalgamation of all these that gives one a picture of what is happening. I recommend the piece by Paul Cullen, which is a very incisive analysis.

We are aware of that. I thank Mr. Warren and Mr. Hogan for attending the meeting and helping us with our deliberations. We will certainly put their submissions to Tesco and give its representatives an opportunity to reply, which I am sure they will seek. They have indicated to us that they are progressing on all the work they are doing with the Irish industry, so we will find out what the position is. We will invite representatives of the big six.

In fact, it is the committee's intention to hold a conference. It will be interesting to see how many attend. We are not in the business of taking any more excuses from them, to be honest. We will invite representatives of the big six players in the market to participate in a one day conference to discuss all matters concerning the retail trade in Ireland. We will draw attention to this in the national press and will give the press formal notice and details of the invitation. We will also notify the press of which companies accept the invitation, which companies decline it and which companies ignore it. We have been ignored in the past. After doing that we will let the electorate and their customers draw their own conclusions. We will not be deterred or deflected from our objective. We are doing other work in the background that, I hope, will advance this process a considerable way. We have taken a keen interest in this issue. Some people might have hoped we would not but we are and we will pursue it to its end. Members of the committee, of all parties and none, are eager to get the bottom of it.

I believe it is also time we examined contract law, unfair contract terms and so forth. It might require statutory intervention. The Minister of State, Deputy Sargent, gave his personal view on the matter, which I appreciate and with which I concur. Voluntary codes are the equivalent of writing on toilet paper; they are useless and I have no interest in them. I am anxious to have a statutory code. That is my personal, strongly held view. However, that is a matter for another day, although we will certainly reflect that to the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, as the committee has a very informed view on it.

I thank everybody who gave their time to attend the meeting today. They have represented their various interests very well. We are very grateful. I note that the Keelings Group representatives remained throughout the meeting to listen to everything, so I suppose that is why it is such a successful business.

The next meeting will be held by the sub-committee, so Deputy White will look forward to that.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.10 p.m. sine die.
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