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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT (Sub-Committee on Job Creation Through Use of Renewable Energy Resources) debate -
Wednesday, 7 Oct 2009

Green Energy: Discussion with Green Energy Growers Association.

I welcome Deputy McHugh who wishes to participate in this meeting. With representatives of the Green Energy Growers Association, we will consider the quantities of green energy producing crops that can be grown in Ireland and the quantities of heat and power that they can produce. I welcome Ms Ann Kehoe, the association's national director, whom I have met in other incarnations. I blinked when I saw her. It was a good few years ago when she was arguing for another cause. I also welcome Mr. Robert Ronan, chairman of the association's management group. I thank both of them for attending so promptly, although we first had to deal with some housekeeping business.

Before beginning, I draw everyone's attention to the fact that while members of the sub-committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the sub-committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. This is the usual warning I must give; therefore, our guests will know that they are no different from the hundreds of others with whom we have dealt during the past two and a half years. Am I correct in believing Ms Kehoe will make the opening statement?

Ms Ann Kehoe

Yes. I thank the sub-committee for its invitation which we were delighted to accept. I will tell members who we are and what we have done. I will refer to the biomass side of renewable energy and the possibility it can produce for the economy in Ireland. We are talking about producing renewable energy from natural resources here and how we can do this in a way that adds value to everything we do throughout the economy. The primary drivers in this marketplace are climate change and energy security. This marketplace is here to stay and will not disappear because these two issues are so important to every economy, but particularly to ours as a small island off the west coast of Europe. It is not a fad. We must examine four aspects of the renewable energy we have in abundance: biomass, produced from crops, land and trees; biogas, through anaerobic digestion and waste products from any industry; bioliquid, renewable energy that comes from the land because it is a seed crop; and air and water.

We concentrate only on biomass. All members of the Green Energy Growers Association are farmers and we want to produce something that is valuable and that can be turned into renewable energy from the land. We seek efficient use of land. We are a non-profit organisation and have not been funded by anyone except ourselves. We started in 2006 and wanted to do something quickly. We were willing to provide our land base and years of expertise to develop this quickly. That is why we took the route we took. We must keep this in perspective. We are a small island off the west coast of Europe. We have a certain amount of land available and a certain population. We must keep our targets real and keep focused.

Members are aware that biomass is a raw material to produce solid bio-fuels, which can replace oil, gas and coal. We refer to combined heat and power plants, commercial boiler systems and domestic heating systems. I did not include all of the pictures when I sent the committee secretariat the presentation.

The crops we are talking about are miscanthus, reed canary grass, straw, trees and most plant life. The harvested straw or cane from that is converted and processed into chip, pellet or briquette and produces solid bioenergy when combusted.

How does one go about this to ensure that it develops in a well-planned, strategic manner so that as one invests money it is invested at the right place and the right time? We designed a production plan and a national framework by which we could produce biomass in the most efficient way possible. The framework examines energy crops, where and how it can be produced as well as the kind of processing and capacity. We also asked if there was a carbon incentive from this type of renewable energy and whether we could trade the carbon from it. We examined where we could target Government funding and, to date, it has been targeted in the right place, namely, the establishment of efficient biomass crops. We now need to move on to the market place. One must invest in supply chains so that there is efficient delivery of products. We must also set standards. This is no longer a problem because the standards have been set by Sustainable Energy Ireland.

We examined what we can produce. One such crop is miscanthus, a perennial grass that produces 15 to 20 tonnes of biomass per year. It takes two years to establish. Once planted it grows for 20 years without replanting. It is quite expensive to establish but minimum inputs are required. The Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food provides an establishment grant towards every hectare and has committed to continuing the establishment grant for two years after 2010. It is a woody type straw or cane and is harvested with existing agri-equipment. Miscanthus is sparse on the ground when it is first planted and it takes two years for the plant to expand. I have provided a picture of the plant after a number of months and another at the three-year stage, when it is ready to harvest. The picture also shows mechanical planters. We have developed the equipment necessary for it. Miscanthus is a vigorous plant but it takes two years to establish it so that it fills the field. Another picture shows the crop when it is two years old and 12 ft. tall. Every year one harvests the crop in springtime and it grows again. We see crops that are high yielding and that produce major tonnage through an efficient use of the land. With regard to the fuel and food debate, we ensure that we do not have a negative impact on food production. Much land is available. Between REPS, the nitrates directive, the sugar beet industry closing down and set-aside being abolished, land has become available. Some 700,000 hectares of land could be used to produce these crops, without affecting food production.

One can use traditional farm equipment to harvest. For mowing, one uses mowers and bales it into square bales. At this stage the biomass raw material is ready to be converted into energy. Miscanthus is the foundation crop and we will continue to grow it. It will guarantee supply but one also needs other crops in the mix. For tillage farmers seeking a rotational crop to replace sugar beet, this picture shows industrial hemp grown in Cahir, County Tipperary. We grew 120 hectares of industrial hemp last year so that we could research it. It is a wonderful crop but requires further work. This is a crop that could be used in tillage farms for biomass.

How does one get the raw material from the bale form into, for example, the heating system in the Oireachtas? We developed a network of seven green energy services companies, GESCO. Each of these companies is owned by the farmers and land owners in each region and these are the people who produce the crops. Each person, including Mr. Ronan and I, invested in the local regional energy services company. We are the shareholders of these companies. They are based in rural areas and contract growers to grow the crop. The majority of shareholders also grow crops. We store the crop and process it into biomass to be turned into bioenergy products for delivery to consumers and industry as fuel, in the form of chip, pellet or briquette, or as managed heat and power. The latter system means that the green energy service company installs the system. It is similar to the service provided by Bord Gáis. The green energy service company provides the energy and the consumer pays per month. Each green energy service company is a private limited company and produces the crop, ensures the crop is processed properly and markets the finished product, sale of heat, to consumers. We have seven green energy service companies and each region's company has assessed the region. The company knows the energy users, the number of houses in the area, the commercial energy users, the industrial energy users, and local authority and Government buildings. They know what is required in each region, the capacity and what we can produce.

There are seven regional bioenergy companies, with 40 directors and 200 shareholders from the agricultural community. We intend expanding the shareholding because the first stage of development involves 30 shareholders in each region. We expect to expand and we hope that many more farmers from those regions will join us. We have invested more than €4 million in research and ensuring the crops are developed. We are now ready to enter the marketplace with this raw material.

Due to the money, time, effort and planning involved, we know that we must guarantee a secure supply of this raw material to guarantee the development of this business. The only way to do so is to encourage the best use of the land.

The economic benefits to developing in the way we have, include providing confidence for people to invest in this new technology and the business itself and stimulating investment in bioenergy technologies. When large, small or manufacturing companies see that a crop, material or energy is indigenous they become more confident in investing in this type of technology. They are no longer afraid that there will not be enough of the product in five years time. This industry can create a new economic sector in the country and provide real employment opportunities.

With regard to seed reproduction, and therefore crop production, this is a very labour intensive industry as it involves grading and production. New equipment is necessary and agri-contractors find they are busy at a time of the year they normally are not. Many people are involved in the manual grading and planting of the crop. As the crops are harvested in the spring, employment is provided at a time of the year when normally it is not. Processing involves transportation and specialised delivery equipment and the manufacture of commercial boilers. We are very close to signing a contract with a commercial boiler manufacturer in Germany. It is quite a small company and if this develops well it is very interested in manufacturing those boilers here. For us, this would mean that from the seed to the field to the furnace everything would be produced and manufactured here and this is very important.

People believe that renewable energy must be produced and delivered locally. It represents new career opportunities for young farmers and could activate or reactivate and restructure rural development. It involves effective and efficient land use. The rural environment protection scheme and the nitrates directive are very good and were necessary but we have got slightly sidetracked away from efficient land use. We considered that efficient land use meant making the best use of subsidies and supports. What we mean by efficient land use is producing something valuable from that land. Efficient food and fuel balance is very important.

I understand the production of bioenergy and Ms Kehoe also spoke about its users. What level of energy use is required for the Green Energy Growers Association, GEGA, to get involved with a small community comprising a church, school and small factory?

Ms Ann Kehoe

We would prefer to speak about commercial——

I understand from listening to Ms Kehoe that GEGA installs pipes and boilers and supplies fuel on a weekly or monthly basis and ensures that it is fed into the boiler.

Ms Ann Kehoe

Yes.

The client pays GEGA at the end of the month for the use of the electricity.

Ms Ann Kehoe

That is one way we can do it and it is our preferred option. We also offer the option of producing the fuel if a community, manufacturer or commercial business person decided to purchase the system. We keep an open mind.

This is modelled on what happens in Güssing, where we visited a number of years ago.

Ms Ann Kehoe

Yes.

This has been a bad year for farmers and I am sure many of them will not return to the production of corn. Does GEGA say to them that there is a need to get involved in this? How is the product marketed? How would GEGA find customers for its product in Kildare, where I represent? If a farmer is to produce the material there must be somewhere it can be used. It would not be right to take it from Kildare to Dublin or Carlow. It must be done locally. How does GEGA establish itself in an area?

Ms Ann Kehoe

The seven regional green energy service companies are established. To prove this particular biomass material can be produced effectively here we planted it. This had to be done to demonstrate that it can work and we planted more than 1,000 hectares of miscanthus. Deputy Fitzpatrick was 100% right to raise this issue. Our group does not have miscanthus growing in Kildare. If a Kildare-based business approached its nearest green energy service company, which is probably Kilogen, we would ensure that for the first two years the material went from other parts of the country to that customer. In the meantime, our prime concern would be to get clusters of growers very close to that business so that within three years the fuel for the business would be produced regionally and locally. We have no problem transporting fuel for a couple of years.

I thank the Chairman and Ms Kehoe for her presentation. Miscanthus is GEGA's foundation crop and 1,000 hectares are planted. What stage of the three-year cycle to which Ms Kehoe referred is it at?

Ms Ann Kehoe

In 2006, we planted a very small amount in County Wexford as a trial and that has been harvested. In 2007, we planted 150 hectares and the first harvest, which was light, was this year and we will have full production in 2010. We have also planted another 500 hectares. It is slowly but surely coming on stream but it will take two years for the 1,000 hectares to be in full production. As Deputy Fitzpatrick stated, what we need to do now to move into the commercial marketplace is to encourage people to grow the crop. Tomorrow, we will meet officials from the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and we will tell them that we are delighted that €20 million has been put into an establishment grant for the next three years but that we would not mind if 25% of that budget was taken and used to install commercial systems in places such as Teagasc in Moorepark and Kildalton College because somebody needs to kick-start this.

We are ready; our commercial systems are guaranteed and we know what we need to do. The problem is money, the same problem that everybody has. Potential business customers are finding it difficult to get the capital to invest in the system as are we. The problem is that money is scarce and until we can demonstrate with a prototype that this works they will not be willing to take the risk. This morning, we met SEI and tomorrow we will discuss the issue with Department officials. It would be fantastic if we could install two systems somewhere, perhaps supported by the Government, which we could maintain. They could serve as demonstration models which financial institutions, potential customers, growers and elected representatives could see working.

In terms of the growth of the plant and the land, climate, conditions and potential pests, where does miscanthus grow naturally? It is being introduced to Ireland. Are there risks in this regard?

Ms Ann Kehoe

In the beginning we were told it grows on marginal land but it does not. The crop requires relatively good productive land. Land which produces grass or another crop well and has a good nutrient level will grow miscanthus very well. We have tried to grow miscanthus and are glad we did so because we now know it does not work on bad, cold or unproductive land and it will not grow vigorously. Relatively good land is required. That is one of the reasons we have also researched the potential of reed canary grass for marginal wet or boggy lands. However, we have not done enough research to expand production.

Ms Kehoe noted that service companies are now ready to enter the market. What has her market research told her in terms of who her first customers will be?

Ms Ann Kehoe

At present, we have three customers which have reached the stage of seeking finance. The first, a piggery, is ideally suited to the agri-industrial side because it has the capacity to handle the big bale format. The second customer is a community swimming pool, which is also ideal for us because if we could develop a system for a swimming pool the ensuing publicity would be very positive. This facility is open to the public from early in the morning to late and night and it would demonstrate the uses of this system in any environment. Both facilities could incorporate a large commercial boiler into which large bails could be fed automatically.

We are working with Carlow Institute of Technology to develop a feed-in mechanism for chipped product. In this regard, we have commenced negotiations with a hotel which includes a golf course, swimming pool and conference centre and has significant heating requirements. We have also begun negotiations with a milk and cheese manufacturing facility but no interest has been shown in using it as a demonstration model because of fears that its manufacturing process would be affected if anything went wrong. We recommend to customers that they maintain a backup system.

We would love to have a demonstration system in a facility such as the aforementioned swimming pool so that we could iron out problems. We are finding that high energy users are very interested in us.

I am very impressed with the progress made on the miscanthus plant. Is it correct to say it is harvested each spring and that the crop must grow for two or three years before it is first harvested?

Ms Ann Kehoe

That is correct. If we planted a crop in spring 2007, the first harvest would have been taken in spring 2009. That would be a relatively light harvest.

It would more or less comprise thinnings.

Ms Ann Kehoe

It would be very close to thinnings except it is cut like straw. It only turns brown when it is hit by cold weather, and sharp frosts in particular. The colour change means the moisture is being drawn down to the end of the plant. After being mowed it can be left on the ground for six weeks in rain or snow because it has a glossy exterior. It must be cut so that the moisture which sits at the bottom two feet of the crop comes out. At that stage the crop can be bailed with the big bailer. It has to be brown when it is cut. If it is cut when it is green, like the daffodil and everything else that is green, it will die.

In terms of harvesting a crop in County Westmeath in the spring, miscanthus has a rhizome which grows underneath the ground. It takes three years to establish a crop because the rhizome grows in various directions at 1 metre intervals. It helps to dry the land by creating a table which allows easy travel. That does not mean it is a miraculous cure for wet ground, however.

One will often get a dry week in January, February or March, at which one point the crop can be mowed and left until the next period of dry weather. The only restriction is that it must be taken up by April, when the new shoots begin to grow. The window of opportunity is relatively wide, therefore.

In terms of persuading a farmer to grow the crop, there will be no return for the first year. Could Ms Kehoe quantify the return on the crop per acre?

Ms Ann Kehoe

I shall ask my colleague, Mr. Robert Ronan, to comment because he grows the crop. I also grow 40 acres but I was nearly divorced in the first two years.

Was that because the cash was dripping out?

Ms Ann Kehoe

No, it was not. Miscanthus develops more slowly than other crops.

Is it more valuable than sheep?

Ms Ann Kehoe

Much more valuable. The Chairman has twigged it.

I spent nine years getting strengthened out by it.

Ms Ann Kehoe

Our own figures will demonstrate that if one pays up-front for the crop, it will last more than 20 years in the ground. My estimate is that the profit margin is definitely more than €200 per acre and possibly closer to €300 with a very good yield.

Mr. Robert Ronan

In the present climate with high oil prices, it is attractive as an energy crop. I concur with Ms Kehoe that the returns are approximately €200 per acre.

Ms Ann Kehoe

That is after all costs.

Mr. Robert Ronan

Yes.

That does not even factor in the environmental benefits.

Mr. Robert Ronan

It is a net margin per annum.

That is a significant figure.

Ms Ann Kehoe

We are being conservative with our figures because we are growing it ourselves. We are not interested in spinning something that does not have a factual basis.

We take the same attitude.

Ms Ann Kehoe

If this plant can give a return of €200 per acre, it will have excellent potential. The price of oil might dip but it will creep back up again.

Oil will be more than $100 a barrel.

Ms Ann Kehoe

The Chairman is correct. When we consider the returns we are currently achieving, there is no comparison. We have to prepare for 2013 because we do not know what will happen after that.

It is important to have a figure if we are to encourage other growers. As a nation, we have to consider alternatives. We cannot put a price on the benefits of what the witnesses are doing in terms of seeking these alternatives.

Mr. Robert Ronan

Farming trends have changed over the past several years. One is lucky to have the asset of land but the returns have not been great. I have visited farms throughout Europe and in most instances the host farmer was not present because he or she was pursuing other activities. Agricultural enterprises are not enough to sustain families. A crop such as miscanthus would lend itself to new activities because it requires little time from a management point of view once the crop has been established. It allows the landowner time to do other things and still get a decent return from his farm.

We are looking at job creation through the use of alternative energy. It is a major concern for us and the delegates. If I had 200 acres and looked to grow this crop, how many people would be involved in the sowing, cultivation, reaping and baling process? Where is the spin-off in jobs? We are working with consultants and we are advocating a Solitaire school. It is an independent process and there is a valuation process.

When we go out on the plinth and the delegates have gone home, people will ask us how many jobs would come from this process. It is the same in Tipperary or anywhere else. It is a very fine concept which I see as being complementary to farming rather than competing with it.

Ms Ann Kehoe

Yes.

It is very important that it does not impact on food production. Deputy Morgan has often raised that issue. This is something which can be positive and the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has recognised this in changing the grants.

Ms Ann Kehoe

Yes. There has been much work.

We know what is happening. Deputy Power stepped in although I know he was under pressure. Will the delegates give us the feeling on that?

Ms Ann Kehoe

I cannot provide numbers, although we thought very carefully about this before we came here today. We can tell the committee what we are doing and show the areas where there will be job creation. The number of jobs will depend on how this develops.

The delegates can tell us where the potential lies.

Ms Ann Kehoe

All the seed we have so far has comes from the UK but we now have enough planted to reproduce this seed stock in Ireland. That is very labour intensive. If, for example, seed stock for 200 acres would be delivered to the Chairman, two people with machinery would have gone to a field and lifted those rhizomes out of the ground. They are then taken into a facility where the very labour-intensive operation of dividing and grading the seed stock takes place. There could be six people in such a facility.

As a result of the country's climate, we would probably lift this well before it would go to the Chairman's 200 acres so it would have to go into cold storage. Such facilities would also have loading elements and there should also be transport to get it from there to a farm.

There is very specific equipment to plant this rhizome. One would need an ordinary tractor but a specific planter. We have seven of these planters and they were made here. If we can get this process to expand at the rate we want it to, more of those planters will need to be made. An agricultural contractor would be needed for the planting.

Mr. Robert Ronan

To operate those planters, four to five people are required aside from the tractor operator.

The planting process and the harvesting process in particular had a limiting factor in the machinery or equipment up to recently.

Ms Ann Kehoe

We tried to plant this mechanically in 2007 and designed our own mechanical planters for 2008. Those planters have their place but we have discovered that this crop is best planted by doing it in the old-fashioned way, using manual planters. Four or five people would be put on the back of those manual planters and rhizomes are then dropped. It is a difficult enough to get proper establishment, so that is the way it must go. That is the reason it is labour-intensive.

It is a bit like potato planting.

Ms Ann Kehoe

Exactly. It is like old-fashioned potato planting. It is the only way to plant it.

We go back to antiquity no matter how much we go forward.

Ms Ann Kehoe

This is not like sowing a seed that flows automatically. This crop can stick together and can be big or small. There is only one way to plant, which we have learned the hard way; people need to be on the back of the tractor dropping the rhizome. There would be four or five people in that operation. It is then rolled and planted. There would be some weed control and the crop would be minded.

A tractor and mower is required for harvesting, as well as a baler. The product must be loaded and stored as well. The next level takes the crop from its raw material state. It can be taken to a facility where it is chipped and transported onwards. The transport area will develop fairly quickly as specialist equipment is required for loading. It may be the same equipment used for woodchip. Nevertheless, specialist trailers are required and if the crop is to be developed properly, such equipment must be manufactured for loading.

We are dealing with commercial boilers and if miscanthus is mentioned to anybody in the energy industry, one would be told that miscanthus must go to a very specific miscanthus boiler. Every miscanthus boiler will burn woodchip and any other material but it must be specifically guaranteed to burn miscanthus.

We have done much research with Teagasc and the Carlow Institute of Technology. We know what the best boiler is and the manufacturers are contracted to distribute the boilers. It is a small company in Germany and if we develop this fast enough — and there is a requirement for boilers — those boilers could be manufactured here. The German company wants to outsource manufacturing to Ireland. As Mr. Ronan mentioned to representatives of Sustainable Energy Ireland this morning, if this is developed in Ireland we will have the potential to export those boilers to the UK.

It has been an interesting presentation and it is good to see positive work being done. The group is ahead of the posse as many people are only dabbling with potential ideas. Does the group have any contacts in Donegal or does its network extend that far?

Ms Ann Kehoe

There is a company in Donegal called Energy Crops Limited, although it is not involved with us. The Deputy may have come across Mr. Jimmy Scott, who was a Teagasc adviser.

Ms Ann Kehoe

He is the man to contact in Donegal.

Will it work in Donegal? The witnesses are not worried about the climate.

Ms Ann Kehoe

A man from Donegal showed me a planter that had broken down and he had pulled out of a field because it was stony. Nobody should have encouraged that man to plant where he did. There is much good land in Donegal and we always go on to the land and dig holes in the field to check it. We are very fussy, as although there was a time we were told this would grow anywhere, it does not. At the same time, it will grow in most parts of Ireland because we have much good land. Donegal has much good land as well.

Donegal Creameries will have the largest organic farm in Europe, amounting to approximately 3,000 acres. There is a possibility of reaching out to that company because it is interested in organic crops and renewable energy sources will form part of that. Deputy Power hit the nail on the head in that it is our job to convince our network of farmers and constituents who have idle land of this crop. There is a mentality of getting subsidised and leaving fields idle so we must challenge that in order to get farmers back farming.

I would have been involved in setting potatoes in a 12 acre field years ago.

Ms Ann Kehoe

This might be a question for Mr. Ronan.

I assume harvesters are used. Can a machine put the crop in the soil without drills?

Mr. Robert Ronan

The soil must be prepared like any seed bed.

It is similar to corn.

Mr. Robert Ronan

Yes. The general guideline is to prepare the soil as it would be prepared for planting maize or a root crop like sugar beet or potatoes. Attention to detail is important.

Ms Ann Kehoe

The people who have mostly grown or planted this to date are grass farmers or dry livestock farmers like us. We would love to encourage tillage farmers but they like to plough and till every year. Miscanthus is a grass so the majority of the people growing this crop for us are dry stock, sheep, cattle and people who got out of dairying. There are a certain number of tillage farmers.

The most important question asked today concerned how we can expand this industry and get more people to grow the crop. There are two ways. The first and most important is that we must demonstrate that there is a marketplace. We must install two or three of these systems and complete the loop. If farmers see there is an absolute marketplace for this crop when it is burned, that it has high calorific value and produces energy efficiently, that is one way. People will say, “There is a marketplace for this, I know where it is going and I will grow it”. The second way is the result, when the crop is profitable and gives a real return per acre — which it does. Those are the two ways.

I know the committee did not invite us here to ask what it can do for us, but had it done so——

We are willing to hear the two sides.

Ms Ann Kehoe

The reason we are with Sustainable Energy Ireland, SEI, capital investment in two or three——

What did GEGA say to the SEI?

Ms Ann Kehoe

We said to the SEI there was no point in talking about a 30% grant for this system if we cannot get the rest of the capital. Today the SEI told us that it would talk about this and see if there was a way of installing a system, for example, in the swimming pool I mentioned, under its research and development programme. If the SEI were to do that it would be the kick start we need.

Most members want to know the capital cost. Ms Kehoe began in mixed farming. What capital cost did she incur? She had the machinery but if she did not have even a toy tractor, never mind the good one she had——

Ms Ann Kehoe

One has a grass field.

One has the grass field or a bit of ground that one never looked at very much.

Ms Ann Kehoe

One would spray, plough and till. It may be subsoil. We come in and plant the crop. It is expensive and will cost probably €2,200 per hectare to establish. The Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food gives a grant of 50% to a maximum of €1,450 so the cost involved is approximately €1,000 per hectare to plant the crop. It is expensive to find the money up front but when one considers how long the crop is in the ground the cost is not huge. At the same time——

The capital outlay is considerable. Over the 20-year potential growing period that is fine and one can average the cost out, reckoning that it costs only about €120 per hectare.

Mr. Robert Ronan

It is not very different from the livestock farmer's point of view in the sense of stocking land with livestock. It is a huge investment up front.

Not alone that but one must prepare slag units to accommodate the material before it goes to finishers. One is stuck with that considerable capital outlay when there is no guarantee of a return.

Mr. Robert Ronan

Yes.

Ms Ann Kehoe

We have spoken to many financial institutions regarding a financial package for farmers, over perhaps five years, to pay for this. That is the way to look at it.

It is a five to seven-year programme.

Ms Ann Kehoe

It is, absolutely, especially because we went looking for it at a time when the institutions decided they do not have the money or will not give it out. If the marketplace is seen and demonstrated to be developing and moving on, banks and everybody else will look at this differently because one would have completed the picture. They see that one grows it, that this is the way it goes, what is produced and how valuable it is.

This is the autumn season in farming, as the Chairman will know. There are slatted houses lying empty and farmers who cannot get stocking credit from the banks. Beef is a sustainable industry in terms of the market. Is Ms Kehoe receiving any indications from banks that they will look more favourably upon this type of industry than on existing practices? At the moment farmers cannot get credit.

Ms Ann Kehoe

The indications we are getting from banks is that they will talk very encouragingly. They bring the customer right up to the level of putting a finance package in place and will go through the detail of such a package. However, when the individual actually looks for it the money does not come.

They want security from the granny on top of everything. The delegates have provoked a great deal of interest. Normally there are only five committee members and we would have left the room long ago, I must be honest. It is a tribute to Ms Kehoe and her colleagues.

One of the key global issues concerning the growth of energy crops is how they affect food supply. In her opening remarks Ms Kehoe mentioned a figure of 7,000 hectares.

Ms Ann Kehoe

It was 700,000 hectares, throughout the country.

That was the figure given that would not affect food supply. Given that good land is required, as Ms Kehoe stated, does this not have the potential to impact on food production.

Ms Ann Kehoe

No. Sugarbeet was produced on very good land and is no longer produced. Set-aside generally happened on tillage farms. It might be the worst corner of a farm but if the farm was a good farm there would be good land in set-aside. REPS 4 was intended to impose very restrictive 12 ft. margins on this but now many farmers cannot get into REPS 4. Although this will impact on them financially it will free up land that little bit more. We have looked at this very carefully.

Regarding our situation, the Chairman referred to sheep. For years, my husband and I were intensive sheep producers in a non-disadvantaged area in the Suir valley in County Tipperary. After very many years of hard work of producing intensively we discovered there was probably a better margin to be got by becoming more extensive and going into REPS. I am ashamed to say that the best land in the country, the Suir valley, is not producing anything like it should be. We now have 40 acres of miscanthus in the ground and 300 sheep instead of 900 and are much happier with the fact we were producing more effectively from that land. It was unsustainable to try to produce 900 breeding sheep in the marketplace at the time whereas now we have developed. The land is good. Mr. Ronan was in the same situation. He was an intensive suckler and beef producer.

Mr. Robert Ronan

Unlike Ms Kehoe, I was on the poorer end of things. My land goes up to 900 feet with a small amount of soil on top of shale.

I do not know any farmer from County Tipperary who will say there is any poor land there. I will cut Mr. Ronan off at that point.

Ms Kehoe mentioned that one of her first customers is likely to be a piggery. The committee had some presentations on the potential of pig slurry for anaerobic digestion as a potential source of energy. What is the potential for the integration of Ms Kehoe’s system with any other, such as anaerobic digestion?

Ms Ann Kehoe

Large producers of waste, for example, in the meat processing industry, would probably never use biomass because they have tallow and waste and therefore use anaerobic digestion very effectively. One thing surprised me. I thought that anaerobic digestion would take off a great deal faster, particularly in areas such as Deputy Morgan's constituency where there is large-scale chicken and pig production. I thought it would have developed much faster and I do not understand why it has not done so.

As we see it, there is no single resource in this country that will produce all the energy we need. There will be a mix. Biomass will suit one sector and anaerobic digestion will suit another. Solar and wind energy will suit others. It is a combination of all that will give us a renewable energy industry.

That is a combination of stand-alone methods rather than the potential to integrate two systems.

Ms Ann Kehoe

We are talking about six piggeries run by one management company. They have looked at anaerobic digestion and are not going that route. They are opting for biomass. For some reason, perhaps the initial capital investment involved——

Mr. Robert Ronan

There is a constituent of pig slurry that needs another ingredient to make it suitable for anaerobic digestion.

Many objections are lodged at local authority level when a person seeks planning permission for anaerobic digestion. There is concern among the public about odours, and so on.

Ms Ann Kehoe

That is true.

They provoke a great deal of objection.

Ms Ann Kehoe

There is a fear that if an anaerobic digester gets going it will start to bring in waste from other facilities.

An enormous amount of pig slurry must be brought in from many farms, even to get going. Sometimes these facilities are situated in very secluded rural areas to avoid objections but the roads can be such that one would not get an ass and cart by in case of a breakdown.

The delegation said there were seven regional companies. Do any of them touch on County Kildare?

Ms Ann Kehoe

Yes. The operation at Kilogen touches on counties Carlow, Kildare and Kilkenny. We would love to grow crops in County Kildare, but the reason we have not pushed for crop growing there is we concentrated on where we had clusters of growers. However, we are now ready to expand outwards. We would love to grow miscanthus in County Kildare if anyone there was interested in doing so. We had a stand at the ploughing championships and will develop the process with anybody with an interest in the matter. We would love to match it with the marketplace. In other words, we would note that there was a lot of potential in County Kildare and begin to grow crops there.

I have a follow-on question. At this committee we often discuss enterprise boards. If there was a community group with an enterprise park in which 100 people would be working every day in education activities or light industry and adjacent to it was an engineering plant employing 20 people, as well as a supply of single one-off houses, and that group went about setting up a demonstration centre, would the association be interested in it?

Ms Ann Kehoe

Yes, 100%.

I have such a centre in mind which borders counties Offaly and Meath. It is located in a very progressive enterprise park in north-west Kildare. We can discuss the matter another time.

We have extracted the maximum amount of information from Ms Kehoe and Mr. Ronan. I thank them sincerely for coming and assisting us in our deliberations. We have taken this issue to a sub-committee which has only five or six members. As Ms Kehoe is aware, it is a sub-committee which sits in a bunker with no members of the press or anybody else present. We have been meeting for over 12 months and many do not know we are here. The main committee met yesterday and will meet again next Tuesday. There is a lot of work being done.

Members travelled to Güssing to look at the concept being followed there. Our intention is to try to have three, four or five similar projects in Ireland. That recommendation will eventually be made. We thought it might be made before Christmas. Like the delegation, we decided to extend the period of time involved in order that we could make the right decision rather than rushing the matter. We hope to make a recommendation in that regard and hope it will go before the Government because this is an attractive concept. We also need to develop one or two schools in order that people can learn the skills required. There are many inputs but many of the required skills are not available such as how one deals with wood pellets. We have received 25 or 26 submissions from persons interested in different aspects. They are being evaluated.

The media may complain about us but they are not interested in this subject, even though, as the delegation can see, we have been sitting here with it for more than an hour to gather information. However, we are not clapping ourselves on the back for doing this, as it is our job. We took this issue on to be dealt with as part of a special project. I think we have taken on something useful.

Ms Ann Kehoe

I do too.

I hope the delegation will use its influence and let people know we are doing something useful. We thank it again. It is high time we took advantage of the grass, trees and whatever else we grow in the ground because they seem to grow faster here than anywhere else in the world. As the "green isle", we have always had natural and comparative advantages which we have never used very much, other than in the footing Kerrygold gained. It is the only decent brand we developed. In our case, the old saying, "faraway hills are always greener", is untrue. Our hills and fields are greener. We need to harness their potential to employ people in rural and semi-rural areas in green projects to which the delegation referred and to provide power and heat for small local enterprises such as those to which Deputy Fitzpatrick alluded. That is our objective.

Ms Ann Kehoe

That is it in a nutshell.

It is a roundabout way of saying we recognise those involved in rural areas are on their knees and, like Rocky Marciano, might not be able to get back up. We are hoping to give them a ray of hope. We hope to convince the Government this is an important issue. Large bodies such as Sustainable Energy Ireland have more power than us and the most important thing any body, Government or otherwise, could do is provide for change. The day they are afraid of change is the one on which they will have lost the battle. The delegation has played its role in helping us to change and see the value of what it is doing. I hope Sustainable Energy Ireland is listening carefully because we found this a very useful exchange.

Ms Ann Kehoe

I thank the Chairman.

The sub-committee adjourned at 3.05 p.m. sine die.
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