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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT debate -
Tuesday, 13 Oct 2009

Manufacturing Sector: Discussion with Gleeson Group.

I welcome Mr. Pat Cooney, who is the managing director of the Gleeson Group, to this meeting. As the Gleeson Group is one of the largest manufacturers of soft drinks in Ireland, we are very interested in hearing Mr. Cooney's views on the challenges facing the Irish manufacturing sector at this time. I thank him for his attendance and his submission, which most members have had an opportunity to read. As we are facing some time constraints, I ask Mr. Cooney to summarise the submission. Oireachtas committees can sometimes be overtaken by events. I am sure Mr. Cooney is well aware of that phenomenon from his experience in the business world.

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. That is the usual warning we give to everybody. Mr. Cooney is not unique.

Mr. Pat Cooney

I am the owner and manager of the Gleeson Group, which is a first-generation, wholly Irish-owned family business. We are engaged in the manufacture, marketing and sales of alcoholic and non-alcoholic beverages for the home and export markets. The group has a turnover of more than €250 million, although it used to be higher, and it employs approximately 680 people. We have six factory manufacturing units and ten distribution depots, which are strategically located throughout the country. We manufacture mineral water, soft drinks, cider, freeze pops, cream liqueurs and plastic bottles for the use of the Gleeson Group and third parties. We import wines and spirits from the manufacturers of principal brands in all the major wine producing areas of the world. We represent international agency brands, such as Bavaria, in the beverage and confectionery sectors. As the largest wholesaler in Ireland, the Gleeson Group essentially sells everything alcoholic and non-alcoholic that comes in a bottle, keg or can.

When I started to work in this business 35 years ago, in 1974, times were probably as difficult as they are now. Interest rates were between 12% and 15% and the effective rate of corporation tax was in excess of 50%. In those early days, we learnt to work hard, control our costs, increase our size, ensure the only mistakes we made were small, take advantage of every opportunity and, above all else, stick to our knitting. Various people were tempted to go in different directions over recent years, but we decided to stick to our knitting, which is probably why we are still here today. The tough recessionary times we saw in the past have given us good experience to survive this recession, but nothing comes close to the set of circumstances with which my business is now confronted.

My business is facing difficulties as a result of both international and domestic factors. International problems, such as the banking crisis that has plunged the world into the worst economic recession since the 1930s, have been well identified. There is a serious lack of liquidity. Interest rates are causing problems, as is the strength of the euro against the dollar and sterling. There is uncertainty about where energy costs and commodity prices are going in the future. Domestic problems, such as the dramatic decrease in consumer spending and confidence, are also noteworthy. The rapid change from the feelgood factor to the fear factor is reflected in the paralysis of consumers when they are deciding whether to buy a new house, change the car or go to the pub. The destruction of wealth as a consequence of the collapse of asset values and stock markets is having an effect on the confidence of the public. The level of unemployment is increasing, the Government finances are imploding and the current account deficit is continuing to increase. One of the most important factors is the unavailability of credit for small and big businesses. The cost of doing business in Ireland has been increasing for a long time and does not show any signs of dissipating. The factors I have mentioned will ensure a very changed and changing environment for us in the future.

While I accept the influence we can have on the international factors is minimal, we should be able to deal with some of the domestic issues such as the unavailability of credit from the banks for all businesses. This is one of the most serious problems facing Irish business as it affects everybody from the individual consumer to the small sole trader and the large business. All business is inextricably interlinked. If one sector is affected, that has a knock-on effect up the line. When all sectors are starved of credit, the economy is paralysed, unemployment increases, bankruptcies become more common and there is a decline in capital and current investment. The Government needs to ensure credit flows to business as a serious priority. This is an absolute prerequisite to any improvement in the economy and the business environment.

It is particularly upsetting to observe the pace at which the Government is able to initiate and execute change. From August 2008, my company began to cut costs and trim the workforce. On 5 January 2009, everybody in the company took a wage cut of between 10% and 14%, which was later moderated to 6.75% until next year. As I see it, Government spending and employment in the public service have increased over the same period. To date, the only evident policy has been to increase taxes, to which I will refer later.

It is imperative that the Government controls its own expenditure and the cost of the public service. Further increases in taxation will further depress consumer spending and delay economic recovery. Local government charges represent one of the most infuriating aspects of doing business in Ireland. My company is one of the largest employers in north Tipperary, employing 350 people in the village of Borrisoleigh. The local council appears to regard us as an inconvenience, even though we contribute €500,000 to that council in rates, road tax and water charges. Rather than encouraging further investment in the county, the council is a serious impediment to business development.

The Planning and Development Act 2000 has effectively allowed local councils to raise their own taxes. In doing this, they have been very resourceful and creative. In addition to the traditional rates and planning application charges, there are now public water supply services, public waste water charges, road infrastructure, recreational, community facilities and amenity costs, a community development levy, public car parking charges and so on. There are now further charges for fire certificates, which are about to increase from €2.90 per square metre to €11.90 per square metre. Effluent charges are also being increased. Planning permission is very difficult to obtain and also very expensive with requirements for EPA reports, environmental impact studies, sound studies and so on. Every business is seen as a soft touch. All of these charges upon charges are a serious disincentive to investment. They are anti-jobs, anti-enterprise and anti-local development.

Another problem is weak consumer spending and sentiment. Consumer spending is down and savings are up. Many factors influence this, such as unemployment, fear of redundancy, the destruction of wealth and the general economic malaise, but the factor which pervades all is the uncertainty of the future path of economic development in Ireland. This is probably the greatest contributing factor to the dismal performance of the Irish economy over the past 18 months. It is also one of the problems which we should be able to influence. What got us here? Factors include the international financial crisis, irresponsible lending policies pursued by the Irish banks, the property bubble, corporate governance, the failure of regulatory authorities, Government spending, poor Government leadership and an uncertainty about Government policy.

Where do we go from here? A good start would be to bring about strong and certain Government leadership, the certainty of future legislation, the availability of credit, the reduction of Government spending and better value for money in the public service. People are generally able to make sacrifices and accept reductions in their standard of living as long as they know what the sacrifice is for and that there is a prospect of success at some time in the future. It is essential that the Government sets out clearly a plan and path forward for the Irish economy and that the solution is credible and fair to all sectors of our society.

The indigenous manufacturing industry is in serious decline and has been effectively forgotten in Government policies over the past 15 years. There is a need for indigenous industry to re-equip and import the latest manufacturing technology and best practice. Industrial policy has been much more focused on FDI rather than on indigenous business. I believe this is a serious error. Indigenous industry and enterprise will be here for the long haul because it has nowhere else to go. Industrial policy should embrace all contributors to the building of a sustained economic model, but the centre of that strategy should be to prioritise and promote Irish enterprise and allow it to take its optimum position in the overall framework of Irish economic development for the future.

The next point is about indirect taxes. It is estimated that 8% of the Irish grocery trade has been lost to cross-Border shopping. This is a straight loss to the Irish economy and a serious loss of tax revenue for the Government. Despite this very obvious anomaly, the Government in the last budget increased the VAT rate by 0.5% to 21.5%, while at the same time the British Government decreased its VAT rate from 17.5% to 15%. This differential of 6.5%, when coupled with the relative strength of the euro against sterling, has translated into a huge loss of business to the Irish manufacturer, the economy and Government finances. Alcohol is probably the greatest attraction for cross-Border shopping. Excise is a tax specific to alcohol and can be addressed in isolation to the rest of the indirect tax regime. There is a case for greater harmonisation of indirect taxes between the UK and Ireland and we should be aware of the consequences of large disparities in this regard. Today's euro-sterling exchange rate, where €1 buys 93.5 pence, puts into perspective the disadvantages the Irish manufacturer has in trying to develop an export base in the UK or Northern Ireland.

Labour legislation and social welfare issues are also relevant. While certain legislative protection is necessary to protect the rights of workers and to prevent the exploitation of vulnerable people, the legislation may have swung too far in favour of the employee. It is usually the employee of no value who knows all his rights and where an employer has not followed procedures to the letter of the law and in accordance with the maze of employment legislation, the employee is able to extract a reward to which he has never been morally entitled. There is something fundamentally unsound when social welfare legislation is so constructed that it is more beneficial to stay on social welfare than work in regular employment.

I will address the questions of regulation and bureaucracy. There appears to be a Government agency or quango for every conceivable business activity. Generally, these bodies implement the letter of the law in respect of a particular piece of legislation without any consideration of the knock-on effects. The sheer volume of work and paper necessary to provide all the various Government agencies with the necessary information and statistics is mind boggling. Businesses are subject to inspection by too many agencies, which often duplicate each other's work and are engaged in building a self-serving bureaucracy. It should be possible to reduce the amount of work and the volume of paper required to meet the needs of government and a single, all-encompassing, on-line return for the most important information should not be beyond the ability of senior planners.

I will move onto family business and inheritance. My business is a family business and I would very much like to pass it on to my children to build a business for the next generation and the generation after that. Ireland is not short of entrepreneurs. There are innumerable stories of successful start-ups but in most cases they never become fully-fledged enterprises. The enterprise and invention of the original promoter is taken away by a multinational and the benefits are lost to Ireland forever. There are more impediments than incentives for onward development of indigenous industry, particularly family industry. Succession tax legislation is voluminous and complex. It is easier to sell a business and minimise the tax take than to pass it on to the next generation. There are many aspects of Irish succession legislation which are benign and accommodating but a further reconstruction would be very helpful to facilitate the optimum development of Irish enterprise.

Executive reward is another difficulty. The success of any business is measured by the quality of management. Present tax legislation makes it difficult to reward senior management in a tax-efficient manner and ensure these people stay with a company. It should be possible to accommodate a practical aid to developing the continuity of management in Irish industry.

I will now deal with bank charges and interest margins. After the serious errors of principle committed by the banks they are now busy trying to repair their balance sheets. This was only made possible by the Government's recapitalisation of the banks. As well as credit being virtually non-existent, the banks are using every possible opportunity and excuse to increase their margin on existing borrowings. This has the effect of negating most of the advantages of reduced interest rates from the ECB and will undoubtedly slow the pace of economic recovery when recovery arrives. It would be helpful if the Government used its influence to restrict the ability of the banks to unilaterally increase their margin on existing borrowings.

Debt collection and credit management is another small difficulty. Debt collection legislation is hopelessly inadequate and out of date. The recent High Court decision not to grant a committal order to a creditor has thrown normal debt collection procedures into chaos. Heretofore a debtor had to prove his or her inability to pay but now the onus has moved onto the creditor to prove a debtor has the ability to pay. Personal guarantees are no longer the simple instruments they once were and the decision as to whether a personal guarantee is to stand appears to be at the discretion of the courts. To get a hearing in the District Court or Circuit Court takes an inordinate amount of time — sometimes up to two years. Cashflow is the oil of business and without the ability to collect debts and enforce judgments the exercise is impossible. The legislation in this area should be non-controversial and should be reformed immediately.

The legislative framework for pensions is seriously out of date. The amount of administration required by the regulatory authorities has become extremely onerous. As they stand, the regulations favour the financial institutions and work against private member schemes. A complete overhaul of the rules and regulations and the legislative framework for pension funds needs to be undertaken in the shortest possible time.

I have outlined what I perceive as the main areas of difficulty for manufacturing in the current environment and in so doing may have given a rather negative appraisal. However, it is important to remember that in some respects the glass is half full. There are many positive and favourable factors for the manufacturing industry, including our low corporate tax rate and our membership of the European Union. We have a comprehensive and respected legislative framework and important reciprocal arrangements with most of the world's leading economies. We enjoy a world-class education system and a well-educated workforce. Ours is a developed economy with good information technology provision. We also enjoy a favoured location for foreign direct investment and have the further advantage of the Irish diaspora. These are all important advantages. There must now be a serious ambition and determination to turn the remaining negatives into positives.

I thank Mr. Cooney for his presentation. He has pre-empted some of our questions by the manner in which he not only laid out the problems but also offered some solutions. Whether or not we agree with all of his proposals, we are grateful he has offered them. If we could play the role of Santa Claus, what is the single most beneficial change we could make to assist Mr. Cooney and his colleagues in the manufacturing industry?

Mr. Pat Cooney

The measure that would offer the most immediate benefit would be greater access to credit. That is vital for every business in the country. We are all aware of the steps taken by the Government to recapitalise the banks. The NAMA proposal has been brought forward and will hopefully be enacted soon. In return for this assistance, the Government should introduce a code of practice to ensure banks act, and are seen to act, in the interests of the country rather than their own interests and those of their shareholders.

I thank Mr. Cooney for his interesting presentation. We are getting the same feedback from everybody to whom we have spoken. This morning we were out in north County Dublin talking to local farmers and growers. I do not agree with all Mr. Cooney's proposals but many of them have merit. In regard to the banks, it is a slow process and, like everything else in life, it is better to do it properly than to do it quickly. Has Mr. Cooney seen any light at the end of the tunnel as a consequence of measures already taken, particularly in regard to credit availability? Representatives of the banks have assured the committee they are lending to small businesses and approving loan and mortgage applications. Does Mr. Cooney see any evidence of that type of increased flexibility?

Mr. Pat Cooney

We do business with approximately 7,500 main customers and another 10,000 minor customers. The story is the same across the entire spectrum, namely, that the banks are not lending and are even in some cases taking back what they previously lent. If one is unlucky enough to go overdrawn, surcharges and other penalties will be imposed. The banks are effectively not lending and for them to claim otherwise represents a contradiction of the facts.

What is Mr. Cooney's view on existing wage structures now that the economy is in recession? Has his company's products been reduced in price?

Mr. Pat Cooney

I am decreasing my prices. The cost of doing business is higher in this State than in the United Kingdom and many other parts of Europe. The same is true for wages.

Would Mr. Cooney advocate action by the Government in this regard?

Mr. Pat Cooney

The private sector is managing to adapt quite well to the changed circumstances. This is where there is a difference between the private sector and the public sector.

Mr. Cooney said wages in his company have been reduced by 10% to 14%, levelling out at 6.76% across the board.

Mr. Pat Cooney

Yes, that has affected everybody, from top to bottom, and we have also reduced some of our other costs. Commodity prices have declined as a result of the global recession which has been a help to us. I am reducing product prices in order to keep my factories busy and my staff employed. We have had only some 20 redundancies, all of which involved positions that were unnecessary to the business. I told staff that costs had to be reduced and that there were two choices in this regard. The choice was between redundancies, with those affected taking all the pain, or an agreement whereby everybody would take some pain by accepting a wage cut. It was accepted without exception by the staff. That is a much better solution and one which the private sector has been quite good at putting in place. I know many people in industry and business——

If the company recovers, will it make up for the 6.75% decrease that affected the workforce? Is there any arrangement in that regard?

Mr. Pat Cooney

No, the only guarantee I made to the workforce is that the package will be reconsidered at the end of March next year.

Mr. Pat Cooney

Of the 6.75%, we may be able to give back 2% or 3%. It depends on the circumstances.

It depends on the circumstances.

Mr. Pat Cooney

This was agreed on 5 January, at which time prospects were really bad. By March, prospects were not quite so bad so we changed our position. If matters look better next March, we will make further improvements. It is clear that I must get my cost base into line with that of competitors or else we will not have a business. The private sector has been pretty quick and effective at doing that. I stated in my submission that I would like to see some action taken in this regard in the public sector.

On that issue, has Mr. Cooney a unionised workforce?

Mr. Pat Cooney

No.

Has Mr. Cooney workers' councils? Does he just say: "Cheerio, this is it, there is to be a 10% cut."? Does he simply paint the scenario, put up the charts and state that if certain steps are not taken, none of the workforce will have a job? What is the approach?

Mr. Pat Cooney

I went down to my factory and closed one shift early. I met 200 of the workers present in the warehouse and explained to them for approximately three hours everything we were doing and why we were doing so. I invited the workers to ask me questions if they had any and I was present with my whole management team. Consulting everybody is the way to effect change.

Every manager knows everybody under him so there was a permeation of information right down to the bottom. My door is always open to any member of staff and that is the principle on which we operate.

I declare an interest in that I worked for one of Mr. Cooney's competitors, Coca-Cola Bottlers Ireland. I know of him through the industry and will not address any matters in this regard.

Has Mr. Cooney taken a conscious decision not to involve himself with unions? Does he regard them as a problem? Has there been any pressure within his organisation to have him engage with organised labour movements?

Mr. Pat Cooney

It was a conscious decision not to have a union. That is my choice. Anybody in the company can join a union if he or she so wishes, as is his or her right, but that is not to say I have to talk to that union. The unions do not work to the advantage of business or employees.

Okay. I have a couple of questions. Is the workforce of 680 increasing or decreasing? Will Mr. Cooney discuss the trend in this regard?

Local charges comprise a significant issue and they are being mentioned by many people. What has been the impact of such charges on the company in recent times?

Mr. Pat Cooney

The effect they have had on me is that I told the council in north Tipperary that there would not be one more penny invested in the region. That is the impact they have had.

The company is quite critical of the Government in terms of its industrial policy on indigenous industry. What would Mr. Cooney do to encourage indigenous industry?

Mr. Pat Cooney

I will outline the reason I believe there needs to be a change. Five of my factories are in the village of Borrisoleigh in north Tipperary. It is a village of approximately 1,000 people and perhaps members know it. We employ 350 people in the village and comprise a big part of the local economy. We are in the Shannon free zone. I have not seen anyone from Shannon Development in 20 years. Perhaps I should approach it but I believe its representatives should come to me. I am in limbo because Shannon Development has given up its responsibility for the development of indigenous industry. I am with the IDA but it is not sure whether I am in its territory.

What would Mr. Cooney do to encourage indigenous industry tomorrow?

Mr. Pat Cooney

Irish industry needs to re-equip. Capital grants for qualifying industries should be reintroduced. They were very successful. I am in the workforce since 1966 and remember when they were available. They managed to raise many Irish industries to world-class standard, which is very important. Research and development are well and good but they are not very relevant to most indigenous industries. Labour grants are not very important to it either. The biggest necessity in making Irish industry competitive is to be as efficient as everyone else. Unfortunately, technology changes quickly and we must have world-class manufacturing practices as well as world-class manufacturing plant. Without that we will struggle.

Mr. Cooney says the success of any business is measured by the quality of management. I challenge that. Does this give due recognition to the quality of the workforce?

Mr. Pat Cooney

That may be unfair. Of course, I recognise the workforce. There are two different contributions. I do not say one is more important than the other. They are complementary. There are certain senior managers whom I would not like to see leaving the company. We need a tax efficient way to encourage them to stay for a long time, not merely ten or 15 years. This would be like a pair of golden handcuffs which would convince them to stay, rather than go to the highest bidder. I do not claim that management is more important than employees. Both make an equal contribution to a successful company. I could equally say a company will go nowhere without employees. I would not say one is more important than the other. There should be an incentive to encourage senior management to stay with a company. Current tax legislation does not allow a company to incentivise staff to stay. There is no tax efficient way to do that. If I pay my staff an immediate reward they can take that reward and go elsewhere the next year. We saw that in the banks. A tax incentive for staff to stay might have prevented the problems we saw in the past.

Mr. Cooney suggests that some quangos see their role as ensuring that every letter of the law is adhered to. Is that not what law is about? Is it not reasonable?

Mr. Pat Cooney

That is my personal experience. Some laws are not particularly sensible, in my view. I am thinking of minor laws.

Should the law be changed, rather than——

Mr. Pat Cooney

I think both. Industry and business are over-regulated. I am thinking of minor things rather than big things. On a number of occasions I have seen two or three different agencies with a piece of the same pie and not always agreeing. There are too many agencies and quangos.

They are pulling in opposite directions.

Mr. Pat Cooney

They are all trying to justify their own patch. They are sometimes in contradiction with each other. They are inclined to build a self-serving bureaucracy which is expensive and irrelevant. The business of Ireland should be business, in my view.

If a full implementation of the law causes a problem, the law should be changed, and not the organisation which seeks to have it fully implemented.

Mr. Pat Cooney

I take Senator Ryan's point. In my view, both are required. There are also some silly laws.

We cannot fundamentally disagree with you, Mr. Cooney, on some of those points. We have encountered some of them from time to time.

I thank Mr. Cooney for attending and assisting the committee. You have made a very forthright presentation. One can see why you are successful. We invited you so that we could engage directly with a representative of businesses who are fighting the recession, hear how you have done that and how you will do so in the future.

I hope we can assist you in providing the optimum regulatory environment in which to operate. We have become too bureaucratised to the point where we are strangling business. That is why we wanted to hear your opinion. It is good to see a successful Irish company weathering the storm of recession and the steps you have taken to do so. I know it is difficult but I have full confidence that the strong indigenous companies and those based in Ireland can, given the right environment and the application of sound economic policies, come through the difficulty.

It behoves this committee to support you and all those involved in every way. For too long Ireland was "Ireland of the red carpet". A red carpet was rolled out for anyone who came from abroad but an Irish person was expected to walk and get muddy shoes. We should refocus. Indigenous companies are here for the long haul. The owner of a family business will do anything rather than let it die and will go without to ensure the business survives. I share that view. Mr. Cooney's views will receive serious consideration by the joint committee. I apologise for the brief meeting. However, I am sure Mr. Cooney, as a businessman, will understand issues often crop up which one cannot anticipate. I thank Mr. Cooney for attending today's meeting.

Mr. Pat Cooney

Thank you.

The joint committee adjourned at 2.40 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 20 October 2009.
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