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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT debate -
Tuesday, 20 Oct 2009

Construction Sector in Ireland: Discussion.

I welcome the following: Mr. Tom Parlon, director general, Construction Industry Federation; Mr. Martin Whelan, director of research, policy and communications; Mr. Cathal Lee, public affairs executive; and Mr. Eric Fleming, national construction sectoral organiser, SIPTU.

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Mr. Parlon will be familiar with this caveat. I invite Mr. Parlon to commence his presentation. The committee has already received a six page document from Mr. Parlon so perhaps he will focus on the key issues rather than go through it. As he is aware, members will raise the issues in the document.

Mr. Tom Parlon

Thank you, Chairman. It is a pity you were not in a position to chair some of the finance committee meetings when I was a Minister of State. Deputy Burton used to tear strips off me, personally or otherwise. However, that was all part of the political game.

I thank the committee for the invitation to appear before it today. It is slightly depressing to continue to discuss the challenges affecting our industry but we believe it is important. Without any hyperbole, I must state at the outset that our industry is in crisis. Total employment in the industry, both direct and indirect, will fall to below 100,000 by the end of next year, a reduction from 400,000 in 2007. That is a severe blow. Output is set to fall below €10 billion next year. When one looks at the construction industry across the 15 EU economies, our output should be in the order of €18 billion.

In 2007, the industry had gone beyond what would be normal at €38.5 billion, which was 24% of GNP. We recognise now, although I am not sure if we recognised then that it had gone beyond what was sustainable. On the other hand, there was rapid economic and demographic growth at the time and the industry was keeping up with the demand that existed. Whatever over-shooting occurred, all the indications are that we will seriously under-shoot what would be normal output for the industry. We acknowledge that mistakes were made in the past. However, the construction industry can play a central role in delivering current and future growth needs of the Irish economy.

The further erosion of the capacity, skills and innovation in the industry represents an opportunity cost for the economy, which will not only deepen and lengthen the recession but will undermine future productive capacity. Countries in Europe and elsewhere, such as Germany, France, Japan, Britain and the US, have all centred their economic recovery plans on increased investment in labour-intensive construction projects. Unfortunately, in Ireland, capital expenditure which had become embedded in the wider economy is effectively being wound down. There is no other way to put it. This is continuing to depress rather than stimulate economic activity.

Since the national development plan was published in 2007, the capital construction programme has been reduced in every subsequent budget. Originally, €10 billion was supposed to be spent on this programme per annum and it was due to be in operation from 2010 to 2013. Now, however, only €6 billion will be spent on it per annum. When one considers the new project starts, one realises that the amount being spent is nowhere near that. We carried out a survey among those in our industry earlier in the year and this illustrates that only in the region of €600 million worth of projects will commence this year. The money allocated cannot be spent if projects are not commenced. It is widely known that only one new road project — the Castleisland bypass — is beginning this year. I am sure this project will be of major benefit to people from Castleisland and places nearby who wish to travel to Dublin. However, when compared with the Waterford bypass, which was opened yesterday, the level of expenditure on the Castleisland bypass will be quite small.

The Government's capital spending for this year will be approximately €6.5 billion. This money relates to ongoing commitments in respect of inter-urban road and other projects which are, unfortunately, coming to an end.

If we consider the workload for the industry for the next three to four years, particularly in the context of the number of new project starts, the outlook is dismal. All we are aware of are projects which have been placed on hold, which are being halted, which are not being sanctioned by the Department of Finance, and so on. Thankfully, we have a pipeline of projects in place. These projects have been planned and went to tender but there does not appear to be a commitment in respect of them. We are losing capacity and skills at every level within the industry on a daily basis.

We regard as indisputable the fact that Exchequer investment is necessary to arrest the number of job losses and create a platform for economic recovery. For every €1 billion cut from the capital construction programme, the cost to the Exchequer in social welfare payments and lost taxes is €510 million. People in the industry who lose their jobs go straight on to the dole. Current REA rates indicate that the average construction worker contributes approximately €17,000 to the Exchequer in taxes. Unfortunately, when he or she applies for jobseeker's benefit, he or she costs the Exchequer approximately the same amount.

If the capital construction programme is cut by €1 billion, the extra cost to which I refer arises but there is no infrastructure delivered. If the €1 billion is spent, the eventual cost is just €490 million, the infrastructure is put in place and jobs and economic activity are protected. In simple terms, it would be cheaper to build infrastructure rather than not. When referring to infrastructure, we mean the improvements to the public infrastructure that are necessary to remedy our current competitive disadvantage. I refer to infrastructure in the areas of transportation, education, health, broadband, telecommunications and water and waste water services.

If we are to achieve our long-term growth potential, we must immediately set to work addressing the infrastructure deficit in these areas. There is terrific value for money to be obtained. This is particularly true in the context of the competition in the industry and the major reduction in costs. Our members would state that they are cutting each others throats for business at present.

The reduced capital expenditure commitments set out in April's budget must be delivered in full. The Construction Industry Council, which comprises representation from the various sectors within the industry, came forward with a proposal to consider alternative funding options, including private pension funds. This has been hailed as a good idea by the Department of Finance and many commentators. As this still has not got off the ground, we will be pushing for it to be taken on board. It would make up some of the deficits that exist at present.

Moreover, our members have major problems with current public procurement procedures. We certainly can see where savings and efficiencies could be made in that regard and the National Roads Authority provides a good template in this respect. Likewise, with regard to pre-qualification for public projects, small and medium-sized contractors throughout the country are experiencing major difficulty in simply qualifying to tender. This issue pertains to jobs that normally would be done by local contractors, be they in Athlone, Mullingar, Bandon or wherever. They simply find they are unable to meet the qualification criteria after which some major national player comes in and takes the jobs in question. This is a source of particular frustration.

We also believe there is a clear opportunity to begin to make Ireland a low-carbon economy using the capacity and know-how within the construction industry with particular regard to the national energy refurbishment initiative. Earlier today, I was heartened to see Bord Gáis showing initiative in this regard by talking about creating 250 jobs in the new year. Moreover, Sustainable Energy Ireland already has a substantial €100 million grant project and within the Construction Industry Federation, CIF, we have set up a one-stop offer whereby a householder who chooses to do some refurbishment can apply to a qualified CIF member firm, which will be able to do the entire job at the same time.

The housebuilding sector, which generally has tended to be the perception driver for the entire industry and probably for the economy over the last decade, is at a total standstill at present. This year, we believe that fewer than 20,000 new homes will be built, the bulk of which are either once-off or social housing projects. Moreover, all the indications are that next year, fewer than 10,000 houses will be built. The ESRI still states that Ireland has a medium-term demand level for approximately 40,000 units when one examines the statistics.

In respect of the job intensity associated with building a house, as each house provides approximately one and a half jobs for a full year, 10,000 houses will only create work for 15,000 people over a year. When one considers the peak figure of 90,000 units being built, this certainly constitutes a major cut. There has been much exaggeration regarding the level of unsold houses and all sorts of figures have been bandied about. Our estimates, which are based on what I believe to be fairly good information from our members and through HomeBond, suggest there are between 35,000 and 40,000 new unsold houses, fewer than 10,000 of which are located in Dublin. In a normal market situation, the Dublin stock represents approximately one year's supply.

Another major issue lately has been NAMA, which certainly is a major issue for both the construction industry and the entire economy. We have been highly supportive of the major reconstruction of the banking industry that has been ongoing over recent months and have engaged substantially with the Government and with NAMA on that particular issue. One major concern we have pertains to the lack of enforceable lending targets for the banks. We do not consider that NAMA will have done its job if it creates a more viable banking system. The absolute target must be that the banks will begin to lend again to small industry, mortgage seekers, small builders and so on. We are dealing with these issues and have made submissions to all sides represented on the Select Committee on Finance and the Public Service in advance of the debate that is about to begin.

As for some of the general issues, I refer to a view being expressed regarding the blame game. I have even heard a number of politicians referring to the part played by the construction sector in the current problems facing the economy. As I noted earlier, the CIF acknowledges mistakes within the industry, particularly the fact that too many resources were attracted into the property development sector at the peak of the market. On the other hand, one could lose sight of the fact that between 2000 and 2007, the construction industry contributed €50 billion to the Exchequer in employment taxes and other associated taxes. The attachment of blame on the grounds that this sum was too much to contribute does not make sense to me. The issue obviously pertains to the manner in which it was spent and so on.

The figure of €50 billion I referred to does not include the substantial development contribution scheme and the moneys paid to local authorities around the country. The local authorities have their own funding difficulties. That windfall was used to expand the public service, increase numbers within the public sector, pay for increased wages and fund other public policy initiatives. We should not blame the industry for its generosity in the taxes it paid. Whatever one says about our members, they are all based here and they all paid their taxes here in the past. I do not make that point from an adversarial point of view but to add balance to the record.

Ireland is unique by European standards in that the benefits of construction employment are spread throughout the country. One can compare Irish construction companies with those in Britain or France and find that 95% of companies in Ireland are in the small to medium-sized enterprise categories. That is different from what occurs across the Continent.

We must recognise the importance of the industry to the economy and the future restoration of the economy. We seek the creation of a national construction partnership forum, which will involve all sectors, including employers, employees' representatives, the Government and other stakeholders. We seek to chart a sustainable path for the industry to maximise the potential the industry has to contribute to our future prosperity.

I thank the delegation for attending and for the information provided. We acknowledge that the construction sector provided major employment over the past ten years and that is why it is hurting so much now. I agree with Mr. Parlon's point about the need to kick-start the economy and to invest in a series of infrastructure projects, including schools. Mr. Parlon referred to the Department of Education and Science figures, where €841 million was allocated and only €441 million spent. It beggars belief that people are living on certain rates of social welfare rather than being in proper employment, providing excellent accommodation for schoolchildren and helping to create the knowledge economy. Mr. Parlon said that he will lobby the Government on this issue and I would appreciate any information he can give us on that. Clearly, it is an important matter.

I agree with his point on labour-intensive work. This needs to happen and the efficiency that could accrue to the State in cost savings is unbelievable. Mr. Parlon's figures are very close to being correct if they are not spot on.

I disagree with Mr. Parlon on NAMA. This will not surprise him because he knows my position on it. We cannot get money for schools but the Government will give some of these developers, through NAMA, money to finish off projects. Some of these are housing-related projects yet we have between 30,000 and 50,000 houses that are finished but unsold. Our priorities seem to be the wrong way around. I readily accept that the banking issue must be dealt with and that members of the CIF, like all other entrepreneurs, need access to funding. Mr. Parlon's contribution was useful and I thank him for it.

Has the CIF considered developing a schools building programme and suggesting this to the Government? The most competitive tendering is now available and any cost benefit analysis will show that we can complete projects at 60% of the price they were three years ago. Has the Construction Industry Federation considered this? It would be important to its members and to workers who would have an opportunity to retain their skills while giving a boost to projects throughout the country. We are paying for prefabs for 45,000 children. Surely it is time that we smelled the salts and realised that we are upside down. How can we, as a nation of 4.5 million, the size of greater Manchester and not much bigger than Birmingham, think we will get out of this problem as the only western and OECD country not to bring forward a stimulus package? I have spent weeks and months arguing this, including on the radio, and I cannot get down to that bottom tack of how we will get out of this. Why should we think, as 4.5 million people in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, that we will get out of this and be the big boys without a stimulus package? It is no wonder there is no sign of green shoots. If you do not feed fertiliser, you get nothing.

Mr. Tom Parlon

I take Deputy Morgan's point on jobs. Costs and prices went out of kilter with demand but value for money is real now and even the projects tendered by the Department of Education and Science two and a half years ago and retendered now are coming in up to 30% less. Even I, as a spokesperson for the industry, query my members as to whether someone will accuse us of ripping off previously. I have gone through all of the costs and across the board costs have decreased. We have a registered employment agreement which means much inflexibility and in the good times our members paid substantially above it. Likewise all of the inputs, whether it be cement or readymix, are cheaper. People are becoming far more efficient. I am amazed at the innovation coming in from members. They are looking everywhere, including outside the country. The value for money is very real and it would a shame if advantage was not taken of it.

We have made submissions on value to the Minister for Education and Science and to the Department in Tullamore. It has generic scheme designs for schools which make it a hell of a lot easier and cut down on design costs. Those generic designs do not fit into every site and this requires extra architectural investment but of all the Departments, the Department of Education and Science is fully aware of the value there is now and I hope it will now expedite the awarding of contracts.

I welcome the delegation. In preparation for this meeting I examined some statistics and I was quite shocked to see that 41% of new houses were acquired during the boom as second homes and will now probably remain empty for most of the time. When most of us committee members are in our constituencies dropping leaflets in estates — I can speak about Carlow and Kilkenny — vast tracts of houses are empty with perhaps only two or three occupiers present. The rest of the houses are empty, with brass letterboxes hanging off or filled with ads for supermarkets and the local football club. One would think the balustrades were made of concrete but they are made of Bakelite and are falling to pieces because the sun's ultra-violet rays are destroying them. What will happen to those houses?

I have spoken to a number of valuers and estate agencies who would dispute Mr. Parlon's figure of between 35,000 and 40,000 empty homes. Some of the figures I have been given, which I am not sure are correct, are between 200,000 and 250,000. We walk around our constituencies and see the numbers of these estates. What will happen to them? Will they be bulldozed or retrofitted? They are a blot on the landscape. Mr. Parlon stated he accepts blame and there is no point going back over it now. It is a period at which historians in years to come will look back and wonder what happened to the Ireland of the boom when we so concentrated our resources on building. I am really sorry for the people who built those houses and who are now out of a job.

What I want to know from Mr. Parlon is where we will see a new way of building that is not developer-led or geared towards revenue maximisation because otherwise the cyclical nature of building with its boom-bust cycle will come back to haunt us. This new way of building cannot be in housing as we have enough. Will it be in education? The interurban routes are nearly finished. We have a chance now to get it right, through NAMA, but this deadly cocktail resulted in bank guarantees and recapitalisation. We must break the pattern of broken dreams for thousands who bought houses miles away from where they work and spend a great deal of time in their cars dashboard dining, having breakfast and bringing their children to the crèche at 6.45 a.m. and do not return home until 6.45 p.m. I want to see CIF members working again but I also want to make sure that when we come out of this, the green shoots come from sustainable development, that housing estates will be built with proper vibrant communities, close to where people work and that the mistakes of the past will not be revisited. How will the CIF do this?

Mr. Tom Parlon

Every developer, whether he or she builds ten or 100 houses a year, had to go through the full planning process. Members of local authorities drafted area plans. The planning sections of local authorities grew and planners from all over the globe were drafted in to meet demand. Our members invested massive sums in housing estates in rural towns and villages for which there was deemed to be a demand. I can recall a particular developer meeting me in my capacity as a Minister of State and a local representative not too far from Deputy White's constituency with a plan for a housing scheme in a small village. His site extended to the railway and was 75 miles from Dublin. He planned to approach Iarnród Eireann with a view to having a railway station located there to enable the residents to commute to Dublin, Limerick or Cork but we know this has not happened.

I have heard the figure of 200,000 houses. There may be 200,000 houses for sale around the country. There are plenty of "For Sale" signs but there are not 200,000 new homes. Our figure of 35,000 to 40,000 is as accurate as any one will find. There is a lack of good statistics. The 10,000 or 20,000 I mention for a particular year refers to ESB connections, the only criterion used for finished houses. When the ESB connects a house, it may be totally finished or in the process of being finished. There are estates around the country that are white elephants. We have compared the stock of houses with the population and Dublin and County Wicklow have the lowest stock of houses for density of population. The 10,000 units available will disappear very quickly.

There are many houses in holiday areas such as County Wexford, west Cork, County Kerry and the west along the River Shannon. People deemed a holiday home to be a very good investment because it would appreciate in value every year. Many in all walks of life choose to invest in a house. For years in a feature in the Sunday Independent a different person was asked every week whether he or she would invest in property or equity. Only the totally dumb said they would not invest in property. I kept a note of this for years. Everyone considered it best to buy property. What will become of these estates is a good question. If they were suitable to meet the social housing deficit, it would make sense to acquire them because it would be easy to deal with the developers involved.

There is scope for retrofitting, even in some of the estates only a few years old. The industry built them exactly to the standards laid down by the Department and the local authorities at the time. We will have white elephants and will have to wait and see what becomes of them.

Mr. Cathal Lee

There is a map in the document we have circulated. The lowest level of housebuilding per capita was in our major urban areas. There was a clear reason for this. We pointed out at the time that in Dublin and the greater Dublin area there were chronic servicing difficulties, with large swathes of zoned land unserviced and not ready to go. There were issues concerning densities. Amsterdam shares the exact same spatial footprint as Dublin and yet it accommodates 4.5 times more in population. There were issues around the roll-out of local area plans. There was a massive demographic surge and, at the same time, real constraints within our urban areas which pushed some of the urban demand outwards. That is just a point to be made and the map and the CSO figures would verify it as being one of the key issues. We would say that within our urban areas the issues are density, the pre-supply of land, and the roll-out of proper planning frameworks in a timely fashion, whatever the frameworks of the day are. Those would have addressed some of the concerns the Deputy raised.

Mr. Parlon did not answer, and perhaps did not hear the question. Has he commenced lobbying the Government with regard to school building projects?

Mr. Tom Parlon

We have made submissions to both the Minister and the Department of Education and Science. There are many projects that are out——

What soundings are being received?

Mr. Tom Parlon

From my feedback from members, a lot of fairly substantial projects are already tendered and are just waiting for the sign-off. The planning, design and prices are in and are just waiting for the go-ahead. Of late, smaller projects appear to come out more regularly than some of the big ones. Having said that, I know that in my own general area, Mountrath has just opened a brand new school, as has Emo. There are schools under construction in Ferbane, Banagher and Portlaoise. There is a lot of activity going on but we need maximum activity in that area. That €800 million needs to be spent this year.

There is an event at 3.15 p.m.

The Deputy is all right. I understand.

I will ask Mr. Parlon about the unsold houses across the country. From the figures he has given, if there are 10,000 in Dublin that must mean there are 25,000 to 30,000 throughout the rest of the country. When we look at the map Mr. Parlon supplied, we can see that it is the Roscommons and Leitrims that have very high numbers of completions per thousand of population, compared with Dublin. I can see that some of this refers to holiday homes but when one looks at what Mr. Parlon referred to as white elephants, these would be in other places, in housing estates. He said he cannot answer the question but what is to become of them? I have heard it said they would be better being razed to the ground and having cattle grazing there again because there are no buyers.

Mr. Tom Parlon

Price will always be a factor. There are people who made that punt and applied for planning permission in villages I know very well in my own area. All these have grown, doubled and trebled in terms of available housing that is now empty. There are many very poor quality country houses that have never been done. People may choose, if the price is right, to come and live in the local village. That is what planners attempted to do, to discourage one-off housing around the country and encourage people to build around villages and schools.

There were mistakes all over, among planners as well as those who invested.

Mr. Tom Parlon

Price falls will be much more severe there. Likewise, Deputy Morgan referred to NAMA in terms of the valuations that will be made for impaired loans. The valuations that will come in for housing estates in country towns, where there are no major growth or employment opportunities, are going to be very low and may appear to be good value for people who will live in the general vicinity.

I agree with Mr.Parlon about the need to invest now in infrastructure, whether it be broadband or power supply. Water infrastructure is extremely important, both for water treatment and the improvement of drinking water. The proposal made by the Construction Industry Federation got headlines recently. How far has that gone? Can Mr. Parlon give us an idea of what kind of reception this had from the Government?

Mr. Tom Parlon

Even at that time the reception was very good from the private pension industry which stated that over 80% of its funds were being invested outside the country. Pension funds had a bad year last year, with losses on their investments as high as 40%. There are probably better opportunities for them now in, for example, public private partnerships, PPPs. Construction firms that were trying to put school bundle or motorway PPPs together experienced difficulties with foreign banks, which now presents an opportunity for a pension fund. Obviously, it would want to negotiate the best return possible. The Department of Finance has taken over the role of negotiating with pension funds and we hope that something positive will be created. The funding of two major projects would be a boost.

Regarding building energy regulations, BERs, Bord Gáis made an announcement today. Is the expertise in the industry or is new training required?

Mr. Tom Parlon

When it was announced in the CIF, we set about creating a one-stop-shop. Bord Gáis has experience servicing and installing new gas boilers and has undertaken to provide a one-stop-shop alongside some of our members. I intend to make contact with Mr. John Mullins immediately, given his mention of the CIF in his interview on "News at One" today.

We were going to bring in all of our expertise. Within the CIF, there are 37 associations of plumbers, insulators, roof builders, electrical contractors and so on. A number of firms that can provide a full treatment have signed up with Sustainable Energy Ireland, SEI. The expenditure in the SEI scheme would generally be €20,000 or €25,000, including a 30% grant across the different areas. It would be self-financing over a number of years.

Under our pre-budget submission, if the Government was in a position to encourage the work via a loan, job density would be superb. Either those who are in danger of losing their jobs or have recently lost them would be ideal, as they have the skills to fit windows or doors, insulate attics, plumbing——

Are those skills present?

Mr. Tom Parlon

Yes. Much work is being done and it is of the typical sort done by small building contractors or house builders. They could change over into the new area quickly.

Mr. Cathal Lee

Of the 1.6 million to 1.8 million units in the housing stock, 900,000 houses were built before 1990 when the first national insulation code was put in place. An average spend of €10,000 over X years, which not every household would be able to do, would sustain a locally-based industry worth almost €9 billion, a significant amount. By its nature, the industry would focus on local communities and individual skills. In this regard, the scheme has considerable potential and will have significant paybacks for the Exchequer.

We referred to the idea of a national refurbishment initiative. The State is the largest property owner and there are sizable opportunities to retrofit some of our public buildings and support businesses. This could be achieved via many mechanisms, such as a zero VAT rate on services and products or a write-off on large-scale commercial buildings. To give the committee a scale of the industry, a conservative viewpoint of the residential side alone indicates an industry worth €9 billion, at least 50% of which would be focused on labour.

The witnesses mentioned the €1.2 billion in local authority development charges. The Committee of Public Accounts, of which I am a member, discussed this matter previously. The development contributions relate to capital spend only and are not intended to inflate public services or wages or to increase——

Mr. Cathal Lee

They are ring-fenced for local infrastructure. Having said this, there is——

The delegation is claiming that they are intended to expand the public service, increase the numbers within the public sector, increase wages and fund policy initiatives.

Mr. Cathal Lee

No.

Did I pick it up incorrectly?

Mr. Cathal Lee

The income from this industry, as with the income from all industries at the time, was used to pay the tax and for public services. We meant to reference development contributions in a separate context. They comprise a separate fund held by local authorities for the purpose of local infrastructural development. Were the €1.2 billion spent on the purpose for which it was ring-fenced, it could give an immediate boost when one considers——

That is the point I was going to make. I did not understand that from the contribution. I thought the delegation was claiming it was put towards paying for public services, which is not the case.

Mr. Tom Parlon

Local authorities may have borrowed other moneys against it——

It is an important point as this is money that should be spent and could be spent locally.

I welcome the presentation which is very helpful. The delegation touched on the issue of NAMA. Many of the bank loans will not be transferred to NAMA for six or nine months, perhaps longer. Many international investors are probably circling the financial system and NAMA in the hope they can pick off the best pieces of property. This will leave the Irish Exchequer and the taxpayer in a worse position. Has the delegation a view on how this should be managed with regard to these international syndicates and even Irish syndicates which probably contributed to the problem in the first place and was excessive in the manner in which they punted on everything?

It is easy to knock politicians and it is equally easy to knock the construction industry. There are good builders and developers, and these are people who have been around for a long time and who have built good houses and property and they will continue to do so. We need to keep people with experience. We must ensure the difficult position of the Government and NAMA is not used by international investors to rip off the Irish taxpayer. I ask the delegation for its view.

It is important that the industry continues to have interaction with NAMA. It is accepted by everyone that we need a good, healthy construction industry. As much as we would like to kick it, we need it and we do not want to do damage to ourselves.

Mr. Tom Parlon

Irish investors invested heavily abroad. One need only look at the NAMA portfolio to see that 30% of the total portfolio is made up of investments abroad. On the other hand, there was very little investment within the country other than by the multinational companies which set up their pharmaceutical or IT industries. Other investors did not choose Ireland mainly because our stamp duty regime was a disincentive and it would mean a drop in profits of 6% or 7% to begin with and therefore this was not a great basis for investing. The Irish construction industry has contributed massively to the Exchequer. We have stressed this fact to NAMA and it must be one of the criteria. In the past few days a new fund has been established to deal with the non-Irish supported banks, which may be an alternative NAMA for those banks. There would certainly be scope for an opportunistic foreign investor to come in here, buy a particular project and flip it when the market improves. This was the normal behaviour in the Irish property sector when things were on the increase. We made those points strongly.

I refer to the skills associated with construction and development. For example, it took the skills of a developer to gather together the large tranche of property and to create the Dundrum shopping centre, which is now very profitable and is a good development for the people of that area. These are very important skills. I do not imagine a foreign developer with those skills will come here for either a big or a small development. We want to see an involvement.

Deputy Morgan is not here now but whatever write-off or hair cut, so to speak, is negotiated between NAMA and the banks for the loans, the developer who is the borrower will owe every penny of it and will be responsible for every penny. The Minister has said on numerous occasions they will continue to be pursued for every penny. If the regime is too severe on a developer and if the incentive is taken away, he may conclude that there is nothing in it for him, that he will be here for the rest of his life and that he will remain in serious debt. The skill set within the industry is important and there should be an incentive to keep that on board and work it out with NAMA by whatever means. The best opportunity for NAMA is to use the skill sets there.

Does Mr. Parlon believe there will be many international predatory-type syndicates?

Mr. Tom Parlon

If they were not interested it would be an indication that the country is a basket case. By virtue of showing an interest they hold a belief that prices have come down to a reasonable level.

Is there anything the delegation would suggest to protect the taxpayer?

Mr. Tom Parlon

At present we do not but previously we have encouraged international investment here. I believe our members are all very keen to hold on to their relationships with NAMA and that NAMA would foreclose and cut them out of particular arrangements only as a last resort.

Mr. Cathal Lee

To pick up on Deputy Andrews's point, there is a real fear in the industry. When the CIF refers to the industry it refers to the entire industry. Despite attempts to depict that we represent only a sector, we represent the entire industry. There is a concern throughout the industry that certain aspects of the legislation in the public domain would close out the Irish construction industry from the long-term work-out solution. If the industry does not have access to working capital it cannot participate in the work-out of these projects or loans. Again, I am referring to the entire industry, not individual borrowers. They will be dealt with under the NAMA arrangement. There are also issues for those who have a loan under NAMA, whether a good or bad loan. In such a case one would be prevented from getting involved in some of the joint ventures or arrangements that may emerge under NAMA. If one closes out an entire industry, namely, the Irish industry, it creates the possibility or the spectre of non-construction professionals and non-Irish investment houses ultimately benefiting from the pick up.

We have made the point throughout the debate that in considering the NAMA solution the construction industry must be part of it by its nature. It has a genuine role to play and the recommendations we put to the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service, NAMA and others are predicated on the involvement of the industry in the maintenance of the skills and jobs in our sector.

There are aspects of the operation that concern us in this regard, especially with regard to working capital. There is a concept that everyone in NAMA, irrespective of whether they have performing or non-performing loans, may be depicted as a defaulter. This is not the case if one is repaying one's loans. There are also concerns with some of the other operational issues. We have put forward some proposals related to the way in which borrowers should be treated and how the industry and working capital could be made available. There are concerns and we are trying to address them. Our engagement on NAMA has been from the point of view that NAMA must work with the industry. We have tried to engage with it positively and we have been supportive of the major changes that have taken place. In that context we will make our various recommendations in the coming days and weeks.

I welcome the delegation. The CIF is very fortunate to have Tom Parlon lead it at present. Mr. Parlon may agree that while politics was difficult when he was involved, he might have gone from the frying pan into the fire by joining the CIF when he did so. Mr. Parlon will appreciate that I wish him well and every success. It is great that he is in a pivotal role in the construction industry, which is certainly in crisis and which faces what I consider to be its greatest ever challenge.

Many people have looked at the crystal ball and spoken about the period of recovery. Will the CIF give us firmed up parameters on the period of time for recovery? I take the point regarding Dublin and other urban centres compared to other parts and I concur with that view.

I support the view on competitive tendering and the excellent value for money arising from same at present. I refer to the other areas the delegation touched on regarding public procurement and examination of the current system. The CIF also indicated the importance of accommodating SMEs, which I support. He went on to talk about the need to have a low carbon economy and the national energy initiative. His other point concerned the partnership forum. That is a bundle, but I am wondering how it could be pulled together to make it work. I have no doubt that many CIF members would give of their time freely to keep the machine's wheels oiled. There is a window of opportunity available because this crisis will pass. Correct me if I am wrong but I hope we will be back firing on all cylinders. If there is a window of opportunity for the CIF and its members to cash in, we should do it. Let us have the proposal.

I am sorry that one or two of the members who spoke earlier have left, although I will not name them. I have heard members speak about NAMA, bank nationalisation and even selling banks.

I think we all know who they are.

Mr. Parlon made a good point about skill sets in the construction industry, which are not acquired easily. We have the people who were involved in Dundrum. Mr. Parlon and others will know who I am talking about. A tremendous young man and his partner sadly passed away; therefore, things do not come easily. Nobody is on a gravy train sitting back counting his or her dollars. That is not the way things in Dundrum worked. One worked his butt off and, unfortunately, died; he was a great loss to the industry and his family. The other has huge problems on his hands. I was saddened to see what had happened to one of the other biggest developers in Ireland in the last decade. He was a man who had developed and rebuilt much of the inner city to meet the needs of individuals who had wanted to get on the first rung of the property ladder. If we were to sell our banks to overseas bankers, as some in the Oireachtas want, we know exactly what they would do, given what they did to that particular individual. When Irish banks were prepared to back him and work on his plan, the foreign bank pulled the rug. I do not know why my colleagues do not see this and are not prepared to say so publicly. We are in a very serious situation and there is no room for playing political games on the issue. For the life of me, I do not understand why they will not listen to the CIF and others who tell it like it is. Others, meanwhile, say the CIF, builders or speculators are responsible for where we are today. I have heard people around this table being interviewed but they do not say their local government colleagues rezoned too much land. The greedy farmer decided to sell his or her land for €100,000 a field, which had been worth only €20,000. We were all part of that greedy game. I will put my own hand up and say I was also. Will anyone else in this room say he or she was part of it? The vast majority in Ireland were part of the greedy gravy train. That is why we are where we are today.

We need to examine other matters. I would welcome Mr. Parlon's comments on matters such as the new fund to buy impaired loans from non-national banks. I would tie this in with the fact that there was a Canadian interest in Bank of Ireland because they are both related. If Bank of Ireland has a State guarantee via NAMA, is that inflating the bank to encourage people to come in and make a move on a safe bet?

The pay levels agreed in the construction industry have been brought to our attention. Certain unions, including BATU, are difficult to deal with, to say the least. We do not have time for that. When the gravy was being poured and we were all able to accommodate it, it was possible. I believe in calling a spade a spade. We need to deal with these issues and the minimum wage and other regulations with cost implications, which companies could bear in the past but may not be able to bear now.

Mr. Tom Parlon

I thank the Senator for his support both personally and for the industry. I have found since I joined the CIF that the people involved are sound even though they might be big names and they might have made major investments. We have had recent industry meetings. We have kept all the people likely to be involved with NAMA briefed on our deliberations and so on. Approximately 140 people attended our last meeting in the Radisson Hotel and there was not an ounce of sentiment. Nobody was whingeing or crying or saying it is dreadful that his lifetime's work had gone down the tube. They have gone beyond that to wondering how they will get back into business or how they will hang on in business. Some are concerned about the recent changes in terms of their family homes and how that is being dealt with by NAMA, and certainly that is grossly unfair. However, there are solid people who created massive wealth for themselves and the country, ploughed it all back in and created many jobs and so on. They are not seeking medals; they just want to be able to carry on in business and get back to a more sustainable level.

The Senator referred to the recovery period, which is the big question. We all depend on the economy. NAMA has to work and it has to start doing its business. I hope that Bill will pass through the Houses successfully and the agency will get down to business. Its officials say they hope to have ten of the top accounts in by Christmas, which would be a big start, and 100 in by February. The big secret about NAMA is that it is supported by the European Central Bank, which will fund the Government backed bonds the agency will use to pay for loans and that will bring in liquidity. We must be careful and watchful of the banks so that they do not use the funds to bolster their balance sheets and improve their loan to deposit ratios, which are out of kilter. That is the trick.

With regard to demography, many people are still working and getting married and that is the only business sustaining our hotels. I have a friend in the hotel business, who is not the most religious, but he always puts his hands up and says, "Thanks to be God for the holy sacrament of matrimony" because people make a major event out of a wedding and stay for the weekend. It is still a case of "no holds barred" in terms of expense. When people get married, they want a home. The rental market is good and, fortunately for married couples, they have choice in that a massive volume of newly built houses are being offered for rent at competitive rates.

We have had a big attachment to ownership of property. I attended a public event last week where the banking representative gave an account of banks being open for business again but it is the biggest load of baloney. Companies in my industry are trying to maintain their overdrafts. If they are frugal and reduce their overdraft from €45,000 to €40,000, they receive a letter from the bank telling them it would like to keep its overdraft at €40,000 and, therefore, the companies derive no benefit from being frugal. In the farming sector, people have been frugal all year and they now want to get loans to stock up for the winter but they are not available. I hope NAMA and the Central Bank will provide and people who are comfortable in their jobs and who have the wherewithal will seek a mortgage. One can choose to rent for a period before one buys and one can put the rent towards the deposit on the house. The forum is the way forward and the first preliminary partnership meeting takes place later, which I hope to attend, and that is something we will put to the Government.

The cost of houses and infrastructure was too high but this has been corrected. According to the figures I have seen, we contend that prices are down by 40% and, in some cases, 50%. They are the ones that are selling. Some are delusional in that they believe they should hold on a little longer but house prices will level out at about 40% of their peak.

On the point made about competitiveness and pay rates, the Construction Industry Federation has engaged a private firm to examine and report on our competitiveness and labour costs in the construction industry and other sectors of industry, as well as in the North of Ireland, the rest of the United Kingdom and the greater European markets. We hope to receive that report in a month or so which will give us a clear picture of the rates.

Apart from pay rates, there are many working conditions, as well as inflexibility within current registered employment agreements that are of no benefit to anyone. They were agreed in the days when travel time, from the time one left home in the morning, was included and so on. I appreciate the sensitivity of the unions acting on behalf of workers and so on. It is not a race to the bottom but we will have to be fair and straight up on the issue. We cannot afford the levels mentioned. We do not expect to reach the prices achieved for houses in the past. The new house buyer will want a better, more energy efficient house at a cheaper price. That is what our industry will have to provide. We will have to achieve our own efficiencies but in pay rates also. Labour costs are one of the biggest features of the construction industry which is highly labour intensive. It is a plus in saying to the Government that €1 billion invested in infrastructure creates 100,000 jobs for one year. An investment of €1 million creates ten jobs for one year. That is a great return but we will have to get more value for our money.

Mr. Cathal Lee

I want to make two points to add to what Mr. Parlon said. One of the issues is that we have no data on real-time house prices in Ireland. We are using the ESRI-Permanent TSB house price index which, by its very nature, lags behind the market by between three and nine months. All international reports suggest house prices here will fall by approximately 40% to 45%. Across our members, we see that the cost of new homes has been reduced by that figure and slightly more. Much of the correction has taken place but we do not have the real-time data to show this. When house prices have stabilised, we will still show a decrease because it relates to when one applies for a mortgage and so on.

I want to make a final point. The Senator mentioned a window of opportunity. The skills, the capacity and the innovation in the industry are being eroded. When the State comes to address infrastructural deficits, as undoubtedly it will have to do at some stage, it will be expensive on the basis that the industry will have been wound down in effect. That happened in the late 1990s when there was criticism about costs but we were starting with a very small industry. As well as losing the benefits attached to the project that is not built, one pays more down the line. That is the reason we need certainty and continuity in public investment, the issue on which we are focusing today.

I, too, thank the delegation for attending and the constructive information it has provided. In their presentation the representatives have stated Ireland's construction industry is in crisis. We all accept this — developers are in crisis. I can only speak for my own constituency but when I see the situation in which people who have been involved in the construction industry for many years are in, it is sad and depressing. There is a heavy burden on those whom we call developers but who cannot really be described as such. Many of those who got involved in building houses probably should not have done so. They should have remained as employees of developers but that is what happened to them and I have great sympathy for them. I hope when we come out of this crisis, we will have a strong construction industry and a strong developer network because as the representatives said, Ireland's construction companies fall into the small and medium enterprise category, even though people do not believe this. They believe they are big developers but they are not; they are small and medium-sized or family businesses which are the salt of this island, so to speak. We should do what we can to secure the industry because if we do not have a strong construction sector, we will never get out of the recession.

I realise we are running a little late but I want to cover one or two other issues. I will not mention issues already covered but address the issue of the black economy, which is fighting fit again. It did go out in the boom years but I believe the black economy will be back, a matter we must address.

As there will not be the same number of public building projects that we had in the past, we must examine private development and the role of local authorities in planning. There is a great lack of urgency on the part of local authorities in approving planning permission. Each local authority should have a liaison officer to pull together the various agencies in the county council structure to ensure planning permissions are delivered speedily.

I am not asking for bad planning but local authorities should speed up job-creating projects that require planning permission. I know of a landowner who wanted to build a workshop in a disused gravel pit to employ three people to repair his trucks involved in agricultural work but was refused planning permission because it was in a rural area. The local authority informed him it wanted the industry in a town rather than the countryside. With the way farming has gone, there is much potential in the use of farm buildings which will provide more job creation opportunities.

Several county development plans are being processed. What role has the Construction Industry Federation, CIF, in the preparation of these plans? Does it make qualified submissions on development plans as to what it believes they should contain?

As we are heading into the budgetary process at national and local authority level, we must examine the levies, rates and the whole gambit of service charges imposed on industry by local authorities. What can all of us — the committee, the CIF and local authorities — do to save the construction industry from collapse and make it viable?

Mr. Tom Parlon

The point made by the Deputy about the black economy is real and one about which we have a major concern. To be a member of the CIF, a company must be fully tax compliant, pay into a pension fund and be signed up to the registered employment agreement. Without opening up any criticism of the unions, when they had a strike recently we found they attacked the larger construction companies which are the most compliant. The unions were not interested in whether they were Northern Ireland contractors or small players. In a depressed economic period, it is normal for the black economy to grow. Of the 10,000 one-off houses that may be built next year, we would be concerned that much of the work on them will be done through the black economy using trades people on the dole. We would encourage Revenue to tighten up further in this area.

The costs of planning and associated delays have been outrageous. While there is less pressure on local authorities, the cold wind from the lack of development contributions that kept them going has been felt. The CIF has an involvement in drawing up county development plans through its local members. For example, Mr. Martin Whelan, a planning specialist, is involved in local committees on country development plans.

Is the federation listened to, however?

Mr. Tom Parlon

For example, some recent development plans for the greater Dublin area list planning contributions in excess of €70,000 per house before even a foundation is dug. In this time of a depressed housing market, I do not know where the common sense is in that.

I welcome the delegation. I like to think we live in the real world, although some would say those around this table live in another world. I acknowledge the points raised by the Chairman and Deputy White.

Many people in the building sector want to be rescued because nothing is happening in terms of small developments and once-off houses. People are on their knees in this regard. The Commercial Court is the busiest business on the island at present. Banks, particularly foreign ones, are taking advantage of the courts to try to discredit and undermine people. Around here one is given the impression that the banks are manufacturing money but they do not work that way.

We have seen the crisis that has arisen in the building sector over the past five years. We lost the run of ourselves but those who raised that point were advised to commit suicide. Approximately 1.8 million people are employed today, compared with 800,000 in the 1990s. We will lose everything we have achieved. What happened to the €50 billion raised in taxes over the past five years? There is no accountability. I sit on the Government benches but I would like to act responsibly. Houses and shopping centres were built all over the place. What is happening in this country? Our towns are being denuded of shops, and small businesses, including indigenous manufacturers, are falling by the wayside. Tesco dominates our shopping centres. Jobs are being lost all over the place but there is no point in saying wages are too high. Wages are high simply because we are a high cost country. I do not expect people to work for nothing.

I am sorry that Deputy Morgan has left the meeting because I would like to hear his alternative to NAMA. I am sick and tired of hearing about nationalising banks. It would be grand to nationalise a bank if it was free of debt but our banks have such debt that the State would face an even heavier burden if it took them over. They would have been worth much more had we nationalised them ten years ago. Shareholders would also have received a decent reward.

There is no easy solution to Mr. Parlon's problems. He stated that Irish construction companies are in crisis but Ireland as a whole is in crisis. We have to introduce budget cuts in the order of €4 billion. We should be educating people to the extent of the crisis. We could build all the schools needed in the country in one year with all the developers we have. For the past five or six years developers and builders were playing a game of poker and nobody said anything about it. That was obvious to the average man on the street. Mr. Parlon comes from an agricultural background like mine, where reality is reality. In regard to his stimulus package, the Government may have a right to manufacture money but we do not have the right to make euro. We would have to revert to the pound.

In regard to national infrastructure, what progress is being made on the western corridor between Cork and Letterkenny? The accident which took place yesterday on the Mallow side of Buttevant is evidence of the need for this road. I was disappointed that the witnesses did not refer to it.

Of the loans which NAMA will administer, 30% are outside this country. What proportion of CIF members are operating abroad, including in the UK? I am led to believe that a substantial number of developers are involved in overseas activities, which could create problems for banks. As I noted earlier, foreign banks have not acted to our advantage. If we had used a sliding scale for determining capital gains tax in the past five or ten years, we would not be in the current crisis. While rates of 5%, 10% or 20% are fine for individuals such as the people present, when figures of €100 million were at stake, we should have been taking 60% or 70%. We would have built the schools we need with that money. I am far from being a socialist but I know what should have been done. That is a significant issue for members of the public.

The State has a population of 4.5 million. We can build as many shopping centres and so on as we like but, unlike North America, we do not have a population of 300 million.

I do not know how we will get out of the current crisis. Every day I receive telephone calls from people in crisis. We have reached a sad position. Politicians are notorious for focusing on good news but there is more bad than good news in life. Senator White will tell us that 70% of the telephone calls she received when she was in business concerned bad news. Let us be straight: the crisis must be corrected. I do not know how we will go about it but I am worried that the budget will bring hardship on people who can ill afford it.

Speaking from experience, Mr. Parlon is a four star general and the construction industry is fortunate to have him in charge. The sector is in crisis, as are the human beings involved, for example, architects, engineers and quantity surveyors. Whereas it once offered great employment opportunities, construction has become a hopeless case. People do not realise the seriousness of the current crisis. It is hard to see light at the end of the tunnel.

Yesterday the leader of the Labour Party made a statement about people on the housing list who did not have a place in which to live. What is Mr. Parlon's view on housing such people in existing housing and apartment stock? I find it very disturbing to see so many empty, half-built apartment blocks in the Sandyford area of Dublin. People are living in a tough economic environment. It is appalling to see such large numbers of empty apartment buildings on the approach road to Tallaght. When will these areas cease to resemble bomb sites? What will be done for those on the housing waiting list?

Of the 450,000 people who are unemployed, how many were employed in the construction industry? Without wishing to throw bouquets at Mr. Parlon, he is an outstanding leader. I was a member of the board of Bord Bia for a number of years. When Mr. Parlon, as president of the Irish Farmers Association, joined the board, he immediately took over its meetings and continued to do so throughout his tenure. I was very impressed by him.

I, too, am very impressed by him. I have also known Mr. Whelan for a long time. He is an excellent representative of the Construction Industry Federation.

Mr. Cathal Lee

While Mr. Parlon composes himself after receiving members' compliments, I will make an important point in reference to the population. Ireland has the second lowest housing stock in the European Union per 1,000 of population and the second highest family size per housing unit. Family size, however, is declining at the fastest rate in the European Union as a result of social changes. Those two figures should be borne in mind. We do not have a high housing stock by international standards. We experienced a concentrated period of house building but it was from an extremely low base. At present, Ireland is going through the fastest demographic growth of all the EU states, including the recent accession states. We have shown in the map that there is a regional aspect to this.

With regard to half-finished estates, there is no finance to finish developments. Buyers do not have the opportunity to access, and I am aware of this from personal experience——

How long does Mr. Lee envisage this market continuing?

Mr. Cathal Lee

I will let Mr. Tom Parlon reply to that. However, the figures are available to show that Ireland is not, per head of population, over-built for the next five, ten or 15 years. However, we have a liquidity and market crisis, and there might well be a geographical aspect to some of the issues we have raised. As the family size in this country continues to fall we will see demand return to the market.

Mr. Tom Parlon

I made the bold statement that the construction industry is in crisis and, thankfully, that is the only responsibility I have at present. I do not have Deputy O'Keeffe's or the Senator's responsibility for the entire country.

This evening I was trying to compose my thoughts in terms of the partnership and whether it will go forward. What can we contribute to it at this stage? We can contribute the maintenance of jobs. Clearly, within that, there is no point paying over the mark for employees in the industry but I believe we can maintain jobs. We have got our costs down. The next issue is identifying the infrastructure that is of benefit to the State, that will make us more competitive and that is necessary at present. We certainly do not need more shopping centres. No more office accommodation will be required for quite some time until people are attracted into this country again. Likewise, houses are not needed in most of the country.

However, we need schools and to improve the water and sewerage services in the local authorities and so forth. There are a few areas of potential, even in terms of hospitals and the health care sector. Approximately 200 primary health care centres are required throughout the country. A number of them are under way but there are problems with some of the others, be it funding or otherwise. They can give a jobs boost.

Deputy O'Keeffe referred to the fact that developers competed with builders. We competed with land owners as well to try to get a decent bit of land. Unfortunately, many of our people towards the end invested massive amounts of money in land for future development, which will probably revert back to agriculture. I hope some of the Deputy's colleagues in the farming business still have that money and might choose to reinvest in the property game when it is at a more realistic price.

With regard to the Atlantic corridor, I hope the Deputy can enlighten me about it. It is not on the NRA list. The NRA has only one project this year. The Atlantic corridor is certainly badly needed — I, too, noted the accident that occurred yesterday — in view of the volumes of traffic on some of the roads between Cork and Limerick. However, the only project the NRA has on hand is the Castleisland bypass. A number of others will be public private partnerships, PPPs. These include the Newlands Cross interchange, the Enniscorthy bypass and a couple of other projects. The NRA is depending on PPPs; there is no commitment of funding to the NRA for the future. I am sure that even with the Waterford bypass that was opened yesterday there are probably outstanding funding issues for the NRA. Thankfully for some farmers, the NRA probably paid for the land towards the end of that project and is paying an interest rate on it. Had some of the farmers got that cash 18 months or two years ago they might have invested in bank shares, more land or property which would leave them a hell of a lot better off getting their funds now.

I appreciate there is a major crisis facing the country. In our approach to partnership this evening, we will look at what type of contribution we can make. Unfortunately, the only chance we have now is in public projects. There is no private money around and even if people had money, they are reluctant to spend it. In public infrastructure we can guarantee to create jobs and give very good value for money.

What is the formula for dealing with the many unfinished single units destroying the landscape throughout the country, where builders borrowed the funding for single unit houses? There is a massive number of these houses throughout the country and action must be taken in respect of them. I could provide our guests with a list of 55 such properties if they so desired.

It is fine to talk about building schools but there is a capital issue for the Government. The first thing I ever learned about economics was written by Adam Smith, who referred to land, labour and capital. Ireland has a great deal of land and labour but it has no capital. That is the bottom line.

Is there is a deadline in respect of dealing with the blots on the landscape, such as that in Tallaght, to which I refer?

Mr. Tom Parlon

Those particular developers' projects will come within the remit of NAMA.

They will not come within the remit of NAMA.

The one in Tallaght——

Mr. Tom Parlon

If they are in Tallaght or Sandyford, they are likely to come within NAMA's remit.

The other one is owned by the man who is before the courts at present.

I am referring to developers operating in rural areas, such as north Cork.

Mr. Cathal Lee

NAMA will take over all loan portfolios of €5 million plus.

The developments to which I refer would only be worth between €50,000 and €300,000. Very few of them would be worth €1 million.

Mr. Tom Parlon

In such circumstances, what is needed is a buyer for the house. If a developer runs out of working capital and cannot obtain credit from his local builder provider——

I have tried to auction things for people on a charity basis but there were no takers.

It is time to bring proceedings to a close. We must be fair to Mr. Parlon, who may not know a great deal about the matter to which the Deputy refers.

There is no point in Mr. Parlon trying to bluff members in respect of this issue. The Chairman should leave me alone.

We will not solve the matter in this forum. There are larger bodies——

We are here to solve such matters.

Mr. Tom Parlon

Senator Mary White referred to the 450,000 people who are unemployed and asked how many of them were previously employed in the general construction industry. I understand the figure in that regard is 200,000. Included among those individuals are lawyers who were involved in conveyancing, a major growth area, and architects.

Many of the professional people who were involved with the Dundrum centre project have been obliged to emigrate. I live beside the centre, which is a work of art.

Mr. Tom Parlon

Many of our larger firms are chasing work across the globe at present. A number of our bigger construction firms have established operations in Poland, north Africa, the Middle East, etc. We are chasing work and trying to use our expertise all over the world. That is something people previously did not plan to do.

What is the position with regard to developments in rural areas, particularly north Cork, which have yet to be completed?

Mr. Tom Parlon

Perhaps the Deputy will provide me with a list of such developments.

I thank Mr. Parlon, Mr. Whelan and Mr. Lee for assisting us in our deliberations and being extremely forthcoming. There is no doubt that the collapse of the building industry was a major blow to the economy. However, I am of the view that we made a fundamental mistake in relying on construction to the extent to which we did. The industry has a very important role to play but that role must be redefined. That is why we asked Mr. Parlon and his colleagues to address us today. We thank them for their forthright evaluation of matters.

Significant difficulties exist. Deputy Ned O'Keeffe hit upon an important point. Many of us are groping around in the dark and do not know where we are going to end up. I am sure those who carried out evaluations on behalf of the Government will have been up front in their assessments. We are on unknown territory and people are still trying to find their feet.

I again thank our guests for coming before the committee. We deeply appreciate their attendance. At the committee's next meeting on Tuesday, 3 November, we will take Committee Stage of the Labour Services (Amendment) Bill 2009.

The joint committee adjourned at 4 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Tuesday, 3 November 2009.
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