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Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment debate -
Wednesday, 10 Nov 2021

Sectoral Employment Order (Construction Sector) 2021: Discussion

We come to the second item on our agenda, the sectoral employment order for the construction industry. The Industrial Relations Act 2015 introduced a mechanism for sectoral wage setting, known as sectoral employment orders, SEOs. The wage-setting mechanism applies across economic sectors and replaces the previous system, known as registered employment agreements, REAs. The intention of the legislative framework governing SEOs is to establish minimum rates of pay, sick leave provisions and pension provisions for particular sectors. The Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment has received a draft SEO for the construction sector and has laid it before that Houses of the Oireachtas for confirmation. The Dáil and Seanad have referred it to this committee for consideration.

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Troy, who is here to assist the committee in considering the matter. I invite him to make his opening statement.

I am taking this matter on behalf of the Minister of State, Deputy English, who cannot be here today but sends his apologies. I am joined today by Tara Coogan, principal officer in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

I am pleased to present to the committee a draft sectoral employment order for the construction sector. The draft order before the committee today proposes to amend the sectoral employment order made in 2019 by confirming new minimum rates of pay, pension and sick pay entitlements for workers in the construction sector. This order, if approved, is the third of this kind to be made. The first sectoral employment order for the construction sector was issued in 2017 and the second in 2019.

Before I introduce the specific draft order before you, I wish to say a few words to ensure that all committee members are fully cognisant of our respective roles - that of the Minister and that of Members of the Houses of Oireachtas - in this process.

A sectoral employment order is a statutory minimum wage-setting mechanism in a given economic sector. Essentially, an SEO is a collective bargaining mechanism which, once the statutory thresholds have been met, gives the Labour Court as a neutral decision maker, the power to examine an application for an SEO in a given economic sector. As part of this examination, the Labour Court must explore all the policy considerations set out in the Industrial Relations Act 2015 by affording all interested parties an opportunity to engage with the proposals and have an opportunity to be heard.

Once the Labour Court has complied with this statutory process set out in the 2015 Act, it has the power to make a recommendation for an SEO to the Minister. This recommendation must be accompanied by a report which sets out the process and matters that the Labour Court considered in reaching its recommendation. The purpose of this report is to assist the Minister in ensuring that the Labour Court has complied with its statutory functions as required by the Act.

The role of the Minister in this process is limited. Pursuant to the 2015 Act, the Minister has the power to either accept or reject the recommendation as presented. In this regard, the Minister is compelled to accept the recommendation if he or she agrees, based on the statutory report the Labour Court has prepared, that the court has complied with the statutory process. If the Minister is not satisfied that the Labour Court has complied with its duties as set out in the Act, he or she must return the proposal to the court setting out his or her reasons for not accepting the recommendation. The Minister does not have any power to engage with the substantive recommendation itself.

Accordingly, I can confirm to the committee that the Minister of State, Deputy English, has considered this draft recommendation in line with the terms of the 2015 Act, relying on the statutory report outlining the Labour Courts deliberative process. Having done so, he is satisfied that the Labour Court has complied with its statutory role. I understand that the Minister of State, Deputy English, notified the Labour Court on 20 October 2021 that he has accepted the recommendation; and that he would be referring the matter to the Houses of Oireachtas for their consideration, as required by the Act. Furthermore, as required, the Minister laid a draft order before the Houses on 20 October 2021.

The 2015 Act also sets out that the Houses of the Oireachtas may only accept or reject the draft order as it is. The Act does not permit any alterations or amendments from the committee to the draft order. If the Houses accept the recommendation, the Minister of State, Deputy English, will sign a statutory instrument giving effect to this decision. Should the Houses reject or fail to approve the draft order, the proposal for the SEO falls.

I will now outline some details of the proposal before the committee. The application for an examination came before the Labour Court by way of application by the Building and Allied Trades Union, Connect Trade Union, OPATSI trade union, SIPTU trade union and UNITE the union pursuant to section 14 of Chapter 3 of Part 2 of the Industrial Relations (Amendment) Act 2015. The five unions requested that the Labour Court examine the terms and conditions relating to the remuneration and any sick pay scheme or pension scheme, of all persons employed in the construction sector as craftspersons, construction operatives and apprentices.

Having examined the submissions and the accompanying supporting materials, the Labour Court reports that it was satisfied that the applicants were substantially representative of the workers of the particular class, type or group in the economic sector in respect of which the request is expressed to apply. This gave the court the jurisdiction to proceed with the examination.

The court then, as it is required to do, published its intention to undertake an examination of the unions’ request and invited submissions from interested persons. Written submissions were received from three interested parties, the construction industry committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, the Construction Industry Federation and the Construction Workers Pension Scheme. No parties objected to the making of a SEO although there were different opinions on the issue of increases in remuneration, travel time and so on. These submissions are available for anyone to examine on the Labour Court’s website. A public hearing was held on 2 September 2021. All interested parties were given an opportunity to be heard and to engage with the various policy considerations that the process requires.

Having considered the matter fully within the statutory time limits, the Labour Court made this recommendation to the Minister. According to its report, the Labour Court has considered the factors set out in section 16(2) of the Act.

This includes the potential impact of the making of an order on levels of employment and unemployment in the identified economic sector, the potential impact on competitiveness in the economic sector concerned and that the SEO would be binding on all workers and employers in the sector. I understand that the Minister of State, Deputy English, has shared the Labour Court’s report with the members of this committee so they have had the opportunity to examine it in greater detail.

I anticipate that the committee will recognise the importance of ensuring industrial relations stability in the construction sector and I hope it will accept the draft order. I trust that the committee recognises that Ireland needs a competitive, productive, and sustainable construction sector for the delivery of high-quality and affordable residential and commercial properties alongside its national physical infrastructure.

I believe this SEO will play a significant role in supporting this sector by maintaining harmonious industrial relations. The terms of the SEO refer merely to the minimum rates of pay and terms and conditions. At times, when the sector is buoyant, it is to be expected that some employers will exceed these minimum rates. The importance of an SEO is to ensure that in times of downturns, workers are properly protected and the sector maintains its attractiveness as a profession for apprentices.

It has been a long-standing practice of the trade unions and the employers in the construction sector to enter into collective agreements that govern the terms and conditions of employment. These arrangements have been in place for many decades and have provided the industry with cost certainty and stability. The SEO provides for a dispute resolution mechanism, which does help in preventing industrial unrest.

Should this SEO be approved by the committee, the Minister of State, Deputy English, will sign an order giving it legal effect. Its terms will be binding across the entire economic sector. The new order will become effective on 1 February 2022. It will remain in place for two years and includes a second minimum remuneration increase in 2023. It is now in the committee's hands for consideration.

I thank the Minister of State. I invite members to ask their questions.

I thank the Minister of State for coming to the committee. I have a couple of questions, the first of which relates to the timeframe. It is my understanding that with the SEO, when the Labour Court issues the report it is similar to the Labour Court recommendations, so there are 42 days and those expire tomorrow. Maybe in an ideal world we would have a little bit more time to consider this.

Notwithstanding that, this is obviously an improvement which some of the trade unions had looked for. I will take this opportunity to put onto the Minister of State's radar that while this SEO and all of these wage-setting mechanisms are very good in theory, in practice we know that through the mechanism of subcontracting and bogus self-employment, there are wholescale breaches of these employment regulation mechanisms because the workers concerned are being put at arms-length from the employer.

In any discussion relating to an SEO, we really must look at effective mechanisms for ensuring that it is adhered to. The SEO sets the floor and in many cases that floor turns into a target for employers. We will put that to one side, but the mechanisms need to be in place to ensure that these rules are being adhered to. I have spoken to representatives about this. I will not name the organisation now. The Minister of State is here on behalf of Minister of State, Deputy English, who will know of the company and the representative body involved. They have reached out to him several times. There is evidence of these SEOs being undercut, and there is evidence that this is being done by using the mechanisms of bogus self-employment and subcontracting. It would be remiss of me not to mention that this is happening. While there is an accepted minimum, it is not accepted in every employment. I would like to convey to the Minister of State, Deputy Troy, that this is a serious matter. The State is involved in several of these contracts where subcontractors are involved.

A number of cases were brought to my attention in the recent past in respect of State agencies or people who are providing services on behalf of the State that are not adhering to Labour Court or Workplace Relations Commission recommendations or national mechanisms. That is a concern. It is one thing to have the SEO but it is quite another to have a mechanism to ensure that it has been implemented. The Minister of State has made it very clear that the option here is not to renegotiate what is in the SEO or to change it in any way shape or form. It is a simple "Yes" or "No" on the basis that it is overdue at this stage. I welcome the fact that we have it before us but I am concerned about how the mechanism is actually going to be implemented. If we have accepted that this is the floor rather than the ceiling, I am very concerned that mechanisms exist outside of this to undercut the SEO before it has even been signed.

The Deputy is right, from a statutory perspective, regarding what our respective roles are in this area. I believe that I outlined them clearly at the beginning. It is welcome that five unions representing the workers in the construction sector are coming together with the industry and agreeing on minimum rates of remuneration as well as other issues, and working collaboratively to ensure that we have protections in place for the employees and certainty in place for the employers. It is welcome They have signed up to it and are in agreement with what has been decided by the Labour Court. That is welcome.

On the other issue raised by the Deputy, the Department is aware of it and it is being examined. I will relay the Deputy's message to the Minister of State, Deputy English, subsequent to this meeting.

I thank the Minister of State for giving of his time this morning. Certainly, stability within the construction sector is more important than ever. The SEO is to be welcomed for assisting and ensuring stability, which is naturally what we are all about. Thankfully, the sector is rebounding strongly following the Covid pandemic disruption, but there is concern around the significant increases in the cost of materials. This is happening for a variety of reasons we are all familiar with, including supply chain disruption and Brexit. These increases are obviously being passed on to the client, who is the consumer, whether it be those buying homes or commercial clients.

I appreciate that this issue is not within the scope of this morning's agenda but as the Minister of State, Deputy Troy, is here, I wanted to take the opportunity to raise it with him. It has been the subject of many representations to me in recent weeks, especially in Galway. If the Minister of State was willing to do a slight detour on this topic, I would be grateful if he could advise as to how the Department intends to address the issue in question. There are major concerns in respect of it..

I reiterate - and Senator Crowe alluded to it - that this discussion is not about supply chain issues. It is about setting rates of pay under an SEO for the construction sector whereby we have an opportunity to create certainty from a labour cost perspective. We are doing that today. We are creating certainty in labour costs and we are also ensuring that employees are protected and given the minimum rate of pay for the next two years. This is critically important.

On the supply chain issue, the Department is aware of this and is working through it, but it is not unique to Ireland.

This is a global issue in regard to both Brexit and Covid-19 which have had a very disruptive impact on the supply chain. On Brexit, the shipping industry has been very responsive to the challenge that posed with the UK land bridge. At the beginning of January there were only 12 direct sailings per week between Ireland and mainland Europe. That has increased to 48 sailings. We are responding to the challenges posed by Brexit. We are working through the challenges posed by Covid-19 but we are not unique. This is a global supply chain issue and one that unfortunately is going to take a period of time to work through.

I thank the Minister of State for the detailed response.

I have read through the full report and I was taken with the manner in which the Labour Court administered and chaired the discussions in the debate between both sides and how both sides were very mature and in effect agreed about almost everything. There were a few points on which they disagreed, but overall this was very positive and takes the competition out of it, from a labour cost point of view, which was welcomed by all sides. On pay and conditions for apprentices, in the last number of years one fifth of apprentices who took up apprenticeship roles left. There were labour shortages in the construction sector which was a big factor. I want to bring this to the attention of the Minister of State. The pay of apprentices is also taken into account and is part of this. Are there other reasons apprentices are leaving in such huge numbers particularly on the construction side? Maybe they picked the wrong job initially or when they started their expectations were different. Maybe it is the way the training is organised and they arrive on building sites without any experience or knowledge of what they are doing and find it a more challenging environment than they expected. Maybe they found something else with better pay and conditions and easier work, I do not know. It is a concern and something I have raised in the Dáil on a few occasions, as have other colleagues. While it is not directly his responsibility, the Minister of State might take a look at this as it impacts on employment. Overall, I welcome the sectoral employment order, and I am glad it is progressing.

I thank Deputy Stanton. He is correct when he says it is very positive when two sides are able to come together and agree on pay. It gives certainty to employers and protection to the employees while giving an increase in pay and conditions to apprentices. Unfortunately it is very challenging at the moment to recruit people into apprenticeships and to retain them. It is an issue our colleague the Minister of State, Deputy English, is aware of and working to address.

I thank the Minister of State. The agreemenf of this sectoral employment order, SEO, is an example of collective bargaining working well. There are a few short points I want to make. In the Labour Court recommendation a number of the key issues articulated by the trade unions involved related to travel time, the increasing of the allowance, the wet week and the grievance procedures ultimately did not find their way into the final recommendation. That is a source of disappointment. However we have an SEO and a proposal for a pay increase in February 2022 and also in February 2023. To echo comments made earlier by Deputy O'Reilly about this deal already being undercut or about to be undercut, that is a concern. Ultimately we must ensure that these SEOs are enforced.

My final point, which I ask the Minister of State to relay to his colleague, Deputy English, is that while this comes to us the day before the deadline, we have had an issue with regard to the signing and giving of legal effect to employment regulation orders, ERO, in contract cleaning and security. Last year an issue arose where contract cleaners were due to start their new rate on 1 December, and the Department eventually got around to signing that ERO after that date, giving it legal effect. This year the security sector was waiting three months beyond the date when its pay increase should have taken effect. These are low-paid workers and the pay increases are small; they may not be much for those of us here in the Oireachtas, or to a Minister, but they mean a great deal to those working as contract cleaners or in security. I would urge the Minister of State to bring back the message that when an ERO comes before the Minister it should be given legal effect as soon as possible.

I thank the Senator. Everybody is in unison that it is great to see collective bargaining working well. The point the Senator made in regard to travel time for crane drivers, that issue was adjudicated by the Labour Court, which is an independent, neutral decision-maker. It was the Labour Court rather than any Department or Minister that ruled that was an unfair proposal. Ultimately, the unions representing the workers signed off and agreed with what is being proposed today.

In regard to the deadline, I double-checked it. The deadline is actually 27 November, not tomorrow, so it is not coming with one day's grace period. In my contribution at the beginning I said that Deputy English has confirmed that this will be signed very quickly once we have approval from the Oireachtas, so there will be no delay in signing this SEO.

I thank the Minister of State for the clarification on the dates. If the message on the EROs and the giving of legal effect to them could be brought back to the Department, that would be important.

To clarify the deadline, my understanding was our committee had to do this today because the Seanad needs it by tomorrow. That was my understanding.

Ms Tara Coogan

Once the Minister receives the recommendation from the Labour Court another six-week time period kicks in. Once the committee has agreed this particular matter, whatever the decision is, another motion has to pass, and then an order needs to be signed. There are steps but it did not have to happen exactly today but it did have to happen today or in the next week.

I thank Ms Coogan for the clarification.

The point has been made that we have this on a take it or leave it basis. We will take it as it is better than nothing. I want to explore some aspects of what is a missed opportunity to deal with issues in the sector. One point raised by unions is the question of a guaranteed 39-hour work week whereby if we want workers to come into the sector, they will be guaranteed 39 hours and will not be subject to weather patterns. How would Ministers or Deputies feel if we were only getting paid when the Dáil is sitting or were not paid when it is raining? How are workers meant to have stability in their lives when they do not have a guaranteed work week?

I again point back to the statutory basis on which the sectoral employment order, SEOs, were formed. The bodies representing the workers have to be a significant representative body. That threshold was met by the unions representing the workers. They sought to commence this process, which was referred to the Labour Court, an independent and neutral decision-making body. Hearings were held and ultimately an agreement was reached and signed up to by both parties.

The Labour Court listened to both parties, made a decision and made its decision known to the respective parties, both of which signed up to this process. We have an agreement in place and are now going through the process where the Minister of State, Deputy English, is satisfied the process was followed and adhered to the letter of the law. His role and the role of the Department is to refer this to the Members of the Oireachtas, which we are doing here today, and Deputy Murphy has an opportunity to accept or reject this.

I thank the Minister of State. I am not questioning the process. I do not think the Labour Court is the Pope nor does it have papal infallibility. We are entitled to say if something is good or bad in respect of each item and the Minister of State is entitled to have an opinion on this. It does not interfere with the process to express ourselves on these matters because I am interested in the Minister of State's opinion.

Returning to the previous point raised by Senator Sherlock on the travel time, again, this seems to be a perfectly reasonable ask from the unions that you would have an hour’s paid travel time when travelling to construction sites that are not designated bases. I am conscious of the fact we are discussing this as Deputies and a Minister of State who are entitled to very generous travel allowances. Does the Minister of State think it is acceptable that workers are expected to travel, often significant distances, to get to work and are not paid for doing so?

I thank the Deputy for his comments. The point I have just made is that the Labour Court is not infallible but it is charged with being an independent, neutral body which is looking at competing demands. There are demands from employees on one side and employers on the other and it is charged with the responsibility of coming out with what it deems to be a fair and proportionate result. Ultimately, at that stage, it is up to the parties to decide whether they feel they have received a fair and proportionate result at the end of the negotiations.

On the travel time point the Deputy has raised, the Labour Court was of the opinion that an amendment to the SEO to provide for such a payment would result in a substantial increase in remuneration which would not be reflective of the general trends in the economy. That is why it did not form part of the decision in this instance.

I thank the Minister of State for his response. My final question is slightly more general and perhaps I might entice the Minister of State to offer an opinion on it. The 2.8% is below current inflation. We know we are going to need very large numbers of construction workers for retrofitting, for the 300,000 homes promised under Housing for All and in the transition to renewables. With wage increases below inflation, does the Minister of State believe this will be enough to keep workers in the industry?

Second, on conditions for apprentices, people are starting work on €7 an hour. Again, is that enough to attract people in and should apprentices not be starting, as a very minimum, on at least the minimum wage?

This is a minimum rate and is not setting a ceiling. Both the Deputy and I know of examples, and others will have plenty of them, where the minimum rates were quite often far exceeded in a very buoyant supply and demand economy. This is not setting ceilings but is setting a minimum rate to ensure that, in a downturn, employees are protected. I presume it is in that context and knowledge that both parties were prepared to sign up to this agreement.

I thank the Minister of State.

I thank the Minister of State for his attendance. I welcome the sectoral employment order as it provides a floor to wages, but as the Minister of State has said it does not provide any ceiling to wages. At the moment the construction sector is very buoyant and under-resourced in workers and skills. At present I do not want to say that remuneration is more than adequate, but it is certainly far better than it has been for a number of years.

One of the working union schemes involved is the construction workers' pension scheme. Will the Minister of State outline if there is any kind of mandated pension scheme for construction workers under this SEO? This work can be a precarious sector and people who start in it need to have some avenue of contributing to a pension from the get-go. We would all be aware of people who worked in construction for years and had no pension entitlements they could claim beyond the normal PRSI pension.

My other question is on apprenticeships. The Minister of State has mentioned the support for a pathway to long-term career development. I know he has been active around trying to engage with the third level space in developing apprenticeships. Has the Minister of State anything further he might outline on how this sectoral order might help to provide deeper engagement in that area?

I will relay the Deputy’s query to the Minister of State, Deputy English, and I will ask him to correspond with the Deputy directly.

On the pension query, there is a requirement for employers to offer a pension but that pension is not prescribed in that it does not have to be a Construction Industry Federation pension. This is just an offer of a pension.

I thank the Minister. In regard to apprenticeships, is the Minister aware of some of the qualification pathways that are going to be offered, in particular, by the new technological universities, TUs? Has he anything more to add on how this SEO might engage on that basis?

The SEO covers apprenticeships, and apprentices will see an increase in their rate of pay, which is obviously to be welcomed. Ultimately, we have a great deal of work to do as a country to change our cultural attitude to apprenticeships. Speaking personally, over the past decade or so there has been great emphasis on and encouragement for people to attend third level institutions and not to look at an apprenticeship as sustainable or as a good career pathway. That needs to be reviewed. An apprenticeship offers very good career prospects to candidates and we need to incentivise them to take up these opportunities. From this perspective, this SEO deals with pay and conditions, apprenticeships are included and apprentices will see an increase in their take-home pay.

That is to be welcomed. I thank the Minister of State.

I thank the Minister of State and welcome him back from his trade mission to North America. It is good to see him back in Ireland.

I support some of the points that have been made by colleagues about the legislation that is being brought forward. It is good to see progress being made in what was quite a grey area for many people in the sector. No doubt this will not answer all of the problems, but it is definitely a step in the right direction and I hope the Labour Court process works out.

The Minister of State hit the nail on the head on the apprenticeships issue as it was something I was hoping to raise, that is, to get younger people into the construction sector and bolstering activity in this area. This legislation will help to give additional security to people working within it.

To add to the point the Minister of State made in response to Deputy Shanahan, from his Department's point of view, the German model would be very beneficial in respect of the dual system for apprenticeships, giving a greater degree of qualification to what is already an outstanding system. This area causes issues when trying to attract younger people to do apprenticeship courses. Some people go into other aspects of the higher education system, through university and our wonderful institutes of technology, when apprenticeships would be sufficient and, indeed, in many areas perhaps more beneficial to them than going through the traditional higher education system.

I am looking at the information on the weekly pay rates that came back in the briefing. It is interesting to see the difference between the wet and the dry week in the building sector. The effect that has is quite unique. We can see that the pay rates are significantly higher than what the median take-home pay would be for many people on a weekly basis but, unfortunately, as many colleagues have correctly identified, including, I think, Deputy Paul Murphy and Deputy O'Reilly, weather conditions can have an adverse effect on people's take-home pay. It is very important - and I know that the Minister of State knows this - that we continue to ensure that people working in the construction industry have sufficient take-home pay because we are tackling an enormous housing crisis and trying to keep up with other demands that have been placed on construction workers. We are very lucky to have a robust and strong economy through the hard work of many people in Ireland, particularly within the Department in which the Minister of State works, and outstanding work has been done on that area. However, serious pressure is being put on people involved in building and construction to ensure they can get project deadlines met and attract in new people. Another aspect of this, in terms of additional legislation that will need to be brought in to complement the work the Minister of State is doing in this area, is that we need to see further work done on work permits. I welcome the work the Minister of State has done on it, but that is a message I am getting loud and clear from my constituency, Cork East, about getting more people to come in and work in this sector.

I will allow the Minister of State to respond to those couple of points. He may have something to say about attracting in additional people, including through work permits, and on the points I have raised regarding the legislation, pay and the difference between the dry and the wet weeks.

Yes, we do need to look at international best practice in respect of apprenticeships. It is an issue that the number of people signing up for apprenticeships over the past decade or so has been on a downward trajectory. We need to reverse that trajectory seriously if we want to ensure we hit our targets in Housing for All, etc. I will refer to our officials on the model Deputy O'Connor raised.

The differentiation between the dry and the wet weeks was considered as part of the process by the Labour Court. I know the Labour Court is not infallible, as was said earlier, but it is the independent arbitrator, the neutral decision-making body that brings two parties together and the body that, ultimately, put a proposal on the table that was accepted. The Deputy and I may have different opinions as to what has been on the table but, ultimately, the proposal that was made has been accepted by the two parties. That is why it is here before the Oireachtas for approval or rejection this morning.

I think Deputy O'Connor made one final point. I am sorry. It escapes me.

I made a comment on the work permits. I acknowledge the work that has been done in that regard, but it is a point that is being raised repeatedly with me by many different people across a lot of industries, particularly construction. We desperately need to get people in from outside of the European Union and to try to get additional workers into this sector if we are going to be on track to meet our housing targets and on track to get key infrastructure projects constructed right around the State. I would nearly label this area as an emergency because of the requirements the industry as a whole faces. In addition, I applaud the work we are doing for workers already in the sector, but this is a crucial point I wanted to relay to the Minister of State while he is before the committee. I know we will have other opportunities to discuss this, but it is something that has come up repeatedly. I was with Deputy Stanton yesterday at industry events in our constituency and with the Minister of State, Deputy English, talking to people in the private sector. They are trying to meet targets. The supply of labour is a concern and very much falls within the remit of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

It just escaped me what the Deputy's third point was. He has alluded to it and will be aware that the permits regime was reviewed and enhanced and that there was an increased quota for permits in the construction industry. That is continuously reviewed and monitored to ensure that the number of permits keeps pace with the demand out there. It is also a balancing act as to when that review takes place to acknowledge that, at the same time, we have quite a high unemployment rate in our country, and we want to ensure that there are opportunities for people who are unemployed to get employment while at the same time ensuring that the need that is there in a particular sector is met. The one point I will make - it was made earlier - is that the rates that have been set by this SEO are the minimum rates. In a buoyant economy, which is what we have currently in the construction sector, that is the reason we are looking for permits. We cannot get workers here and people are now able to demand much higher salaries than what is currently prescribed in the SEO and are coming in internationally to avail of that. That is under constant review.

I thank the Minister of State. He would be more than welcome to visit Cork East to discuss this issue with me and my constituents in the near future if he gets an opportunity.

Nice try, Deputy O'Connor.

I welcome the Minister of State. I thank him for coming in and giving of his time. Yes, I think this is an emergency. We have a crisis. We are so committed as a Government to get houses built and retrofitted that having the tradespeople we need is an emergency. I welcome the Minister of State's work on this to date, and he has outlined an important piece of work to us today. As he himself said of the minimum, I do not know any tradesman paying that little to any apprentice taken on. Tradesmen value apprentices too much to pay them that little. It is good to have a low bar set, but I do not know anybody paying that little to their apprentices.

On the thought of bringing people in from other countries, I did a call-out in the Seanad yesterday. We should reach out to our diaspora of fine tradespeople we have seen leave the country to Canada, Australia, England and other countries. We lost many in the 1980s. Some of them came back, but we lost many of them again after the last boom-bust cycle. It would be really good if we worked on doing a call-out. I have been reaching out to Senators in America and to Irish media abroad asking them to put a call out to tradespeople. All the tradespeople I know - I went to school with and live near many - say that the wages are so high for tradesmen now that that is an attraction itself to come home without anything else. The wages have increased more than in any other sector in Ireland. That is an important thing we should look at.

While I have the Minister of State's attention, I wish to raise a couple of issues surrounding the syllabus for some of the tradespeople. The syllabuses for plumbers and electricians, for example, have not really been upgraded in about 30 years, and many of them are not up to date with the new systems we need to get into houses. That needs to be looked at. We also still cannot do the safe pass online, which is an issue for tradespeople and their apprentices. It is done online in England and everywhere else. For some reason, Solas does not seem to be able to get it online. It did not do it earlier during Covid and still has not done it. I have been asked about that for ages. These are challenges I hear from tradespeople. I know that the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, is committed to meeting the guidance counsellors of Ireland in order to get them to realise the importance of tradespeople. None of us would have a home without them. We have looked down on them for many years, and that narrative has to change completely.

There are also issues with safety on sites. We need better inspections because many people are going up on roofs and doing work without harnesses and just trusting their own balance, and that has led to many casualties and deaths.

We have a huge issue regarding what are called grey sites. The latter is the case because nobody without grey hair is working on the housing sites. We have a lot of work to do, and I would happily help in any way I can. It is a big challenge and an emergency. I thank the Minister of State for his work on this but we have a lot more to do if we want to get these houses built, which we do.

I agree and made the point earlier that we need a cultural change in terms of supporting people making a decision at leaving cert level that a trade is a respectable job with good career prospects. I welcome the initiative taken by the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, to engage with career guidance counsellors. Anecdotally, one hears that there is a focus on getting people to do a degree. The latter is not for everybody, however. That is acknowledged and a number of contributors made that point.

The syllabus for tradespeople and the Safe Pass course online are not areas under our remit, but I will refer what the Senator said to the Minister of State, Deputy Niall Collins.

On encouraging members of the diaspora to come home, I compliment the Senator on what she is doing in that regard but, having been on two international trade missions in the past six weeks, I know it is not unique to Ireland that there are difficulties in attracting the right staff with the right skill sets. There is a problem across the world in terms of a shortage of supply for people in construction. Because of that, the rates of pay are high across the globe and people are not always willing to return home. It is an initiative the Senator has embarked on and if it encourages some people back home and helps us with our recruitment process, I wish her well with it.

I think the Minister of State is doing work on fast-tracking mechanical engineers or others in order that, instead of having to go back to day one of the apprenticeship, they could skip on a few years and we could get them qualified sooner.

Again, that matter does not under my remit. I stand open to correction, but I think it is the responsibility of the Minister of State, Deputy Niall Collins. I will raise it with him after the meeting.

Thanks. I have raised both of those issues with the Minister of State, Deputy Niall Collins, but I would appreciate the Minister of State following up on them.

That concludes our consideration of the matter. I propose that the committee requests the clerk to inform the Dáil and Seanad accordingly. Is that agreed? Agreed. I thank the Minister of State for assisting the committee in its consideration of the matter today.

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