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Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment debate -
Wednesday, 23 Nov 2022

Challenges Facing the Technology Sector: Discussion

All those present in the committee room are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19. Members who are participating remotely are required, as they are well aware, to participate from within the Leinster House complex only. We have not received any apologies.

Today, we are going to discuss the challenges facing the technology sector. Ireland is one of the leading tech capitals of the world, a home to several dynamic Irish tech companies and the location of Europe, Middle East and Africa headquarters for many of the world's leading companies in the tech industry. The tech sector employs thousands of people and contributes to significantly to the Irish economy. In recent weeks, volatility and instability in the sector have been widely reported with substantial job losses being announced in many large employers in the tech sector. I am pleased we have the opportunity to consider these matters further with representatives from the Industrial Development Authority, IDA, and Technology Ireland. From the IDA, I welcome Ms Mary Buckley, interim CEO; Mr. Donal Travers, divisional manager technology, content consumer and business services; and Mr. Tommy Fanning, department manager strategic policy. From Technology Ireland, I welcome Ms Una Fitzpatrick, director; and from IBEC, Mr. Erik O’Donovan, head of digital policy.

Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses regarding references that witnesses may make to another person in giving their evidence. The evidence of witnesses who are physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. Witnesses are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name, or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses’ statements are potentially defamatory to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Both opening statements have been circulated to the members and to commence our consideration of this matter, I now invite Ms Mary Buckley to make opening remarks on behalf of the IDA.

Ms Mary Buckley

I thank the Chairman and members for the invitation to speak to them today on the challenges facing the technology sector. As he said, I am joined by my colleagues, Mr. Donal Travers, head of the technology division, and Mr. Tommy Fanning, manager of policy.

When layoffs occur, as we have seen with some high-profile global technology companies in recent weeks, our first concern is with those who are losing their jobs. Working with colleagues across the government system and with our large portfolio of multinational companies, IDA Ireland Ireland will do all it can to match these employees to the extensive employment opportunities that exist across the economy.

Growth rates accelerated for many technology companies during the pandemic as consumers moved rapidly online and as businesses sought to increase the pace of their digitalisation efforts. Following a period of rapid hiring and jobs growth, some companies in the sector are finding they need to reduce their costs and employee numbers in line with reduced revenue forecasts and weakening company valuations amid global economic headwinds. The companies that have announced job losses will continue to operate in Ireland, many of them at a considerable scale. IDA Ireland Ireland remains focused on partnering with these client companies, our extensive and complex technology sector, and the wider FDI base, to continue to grow their presence in Ireland and deepen their impact on the Irish economy.

As we monitor developments in the technology sector, IDA Ireland is actively engaged with our technology clients at the Irish site level and global corporate level. The agency is providing regular updates to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and remains in close contact with the Minister and his officials on developments as they unfold. When employment reduction decisions are not Irish-site specific but rather made at a global level with implications across multiple international sites, decisions can take time to filter down to local level. This is the nature of global operations with multifunctional teams spread across locations. We recognise and understand the uncertainty that this can cause to Ireland-based employees of companies that make global level employment reduction decisions.

As the geographical spread of employment reduction decisions becomes clear, companies intending to pursue collective redundancies in Ireland have clear obligations under employment law to notify the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment of the proposed collective redundancy and to subsequently engage in a 30-day information and consultation process with employees' representatives. Where companies are reducing headcount through redundancies, IDA Ireland, as a matter of course, works with those companies to understand the skills profile of impacted staff. Those profiles are then shared with clients of both IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland that are hiring and may be looking for similar skills. Technology is now pervasive across all sectors and the need for technology skills across the entire industrial base has never been greater, which should provide opportunities for those seeking new employment.

While recognising the difficulty of this moment for people seeking to find new employment or facing uncertainty about their current positions, it is important to place the developments of recent weeks in the wider context of strong growth in recent years and continued strong appetite among companies to invest in Ireland. We will be able to provide updated data on employment levels on the ground within the IDA Ireland client base later this year once the annual employment survey, which is currently in the field, is completed. Last year’s survey showed that employment within IDA Ireland’s portfolio of multinational companies continued to grow throughout the pandemic. Total direct employment in IDA Ireland client companies grew by 7% in 2021 to reach a record 275,400. Employment increased in every region of the country, taking client employment outside Dublin to 151,700, 55% of total employment in the portfolio.

Technology is a core part of the FDI base and it has had substantial positive impact on the economy. It is a sector which has experienced constant change, churn and disruption for decades, yet the underlying trend has been of increasing growth and innovation in Ireland by foreign and domestic firms. The pace of digitalisation across all sectors and the associated need for new digital infrastructure and services will see technology remaining central to growth in 2023 and beyond.

As noted in our statement to this committee earlier in the month, IDA Ireland has seen a continued strong flow of investment to Ireland since reporting our mid-year results in early July. In the first half of 2022, we approved a record number of investment projects, 155 in total, including 73 new name investments. The potential job creation of more than 18,000 associated with the investments won in the first half of 2022 rose above the record pre-pandemic levels achieved in 2019. Winning investment for regional locations across the country remains a priority for IDA Ireland, as reflected in the 73 regional investments secured in the first half of the year. These investments will build on the record regional results achieved in recent years.

Notwithstanding the current challenges and uncertainty in the global environment, IDA Ireland client companies are generally optimistic for the prospects for their businesses, and we have sight of a healthy pipeline for the first half of 2023, albeit slightly weaker than in the first half of 2022.

Responding proactively to change has always been a hallmark of Ireland and IDA Ireland's success over the past 70-plus years. The client portfolio has historically exhibited considerable resilience and an ability to continue to invest, retain and grow employment in difficult economic circumstances. This reflects a deliberate policy of portfolio and geographic diversification so that when some sectors, activities or source markets are experiencing difficulties, others continue to grow.

In an evolving global landscape, our teams around the world continue to scan for potential opportunities for Ireland and to find new areas of growth aligned to the country's strengths. These opportunities range from digital technologies and microelectronics to advanced therapy medicinal products and emerging developments in the renewable energy sector.

As we strive to identify new investment opportunities IDA Ireland is also mindful of the need to stay close to our large existing portfolio of more than 1,700 client operations at a time of uncertainty in the global economy and capacity constraints in the national economy. As part of this, through the transformation and sustainability pillars of the organisation's strategy, we are engaging with companies on a range of measures to improve their competitiveness, including investment in staff and management training, research, development and innovation, digitisation, energy efficiency and decarbonisation.

These efforts are being aided by the development and implementation of new financial supports, including the enterprise emissions reduction investment fund and the recently announced Ukraine enterprise crisis scheme.

To support the existing FDI base and to attract new investment, IDA relies on the skills of our people, the support of Government and collaboration with a range of stakeholders across the enterprise ecosystem. Whether in the technology sector or life sciences, green economy or international financial services, it is vital that we have in place the national operating conditions that can support the retention and attraction of FDI. Client companies remain positive about the business environment in Ireland and our attractiveness relative to key competitor locations for FDI.

We face several immediate competitive issues related to the carrying capacity of the economy with regard housing, energy, water, infrastructure and planning. Continued action at speed and scale to address these challenges is essential if we are to continually move to an internationally competitive low carbon, high tech economy.

In conclusion, Ireland’s FDI performance has proven resilient and dynamic during adverse times, growing strongly despite the shocks posed by Brexit, the pandemic, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and other geopolitical developments. As we partner with clients to provide support in this current challenging landscape, IDA is also looking to the future as we engage with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment on the forthcoming White Paper on enterprise and carry out a mid-term review of our organisational strategy. While we face a more complex and adverse operating environment, we remain optimistic about FDI’s ability to contribute to Ireland’s economic success in 2023 and in the years ahead.

Thank you. I invite Ms Una Fitzpatrick to make her opening remarks on behalf of Technology Ireland.

Ms Una Fitzpatrick

I am a director of Technology Ireland and I am accompanied by my colleague, Erik O’Donovan, head of digital policy, IBEC. I thank the joint committee for the opportunity to address it on the challenges facing the technology sector in Ireland today. Technology Ireland is an IBEC trade association that is the largest and most influential business organisation representing Ireland's tech sector. The membership is made up of the leading Irish-owned and FDI companies in the Irish tech sector. Our network is structured around a series of core working groups, member forums and networking events, all of which are the primary enablers of our strategy. I am also a board member of DIGITALEUROPE, the European organisation that represents the digital technology industry.

Since 2013, the sector in Ireland has grown at an average of 12% per annum. Most notably, the sector has grown by 30% over the last two years. The digitally intensive sector now directly employs more than 270,000 people here. The CSO data released earlier this year, based on 2019 figures, report that employees in the ICT sector have the highest average annual earnings in the country, receiving €8.5 billion in wages in 2019. Approximately 63% of the ICT workforce had a third level qualification or higher, among the highest in the overall economy. The total investment in the ICT sector at the end of 2019 was €103 billion, or 10% of all capital assets in Ireland.

A global slowdown in the technology sector has been forecast for some time. Over the past six to eight months, we have seen international global inflationary pressures impact on the sector and the Technology Ireland budget submission to Government earlier this year stated:

Budget 2023 must address issues of inflation and infrastructure gaps with the potential to impact growth, particularly with a forecasted slowdown in global technology hiring. This budget must fortify our ability to thrive in the future, by investing in skills, focusing on research and innovation and enhancing our regulatory capacities.

Ireland remains at the heart of the technology industry in Europe, but we cannot be complacent and must continue to focus on increasing our attractiveness and outpace our competitors. Technology Ireland recently launched its new four-year strategy for the sector. Our new strategy maps the success factors which have led to Ireland’s innovative technology sector and sets out in various pillars the areas of focus for Technology Ireland as we look to the future, such as people, environmental, social and governance, ESG, factors and shaping EU and international regulation.

On building the future workforce, while the news of recent weeks regarding redundancies in a small number of companies is disappointing and deeply upsetting for the individuals impacted, there remains a high demand for tech talent in this country, in particular in our indigenous tech companies, which found it challenging to hire at pace over the past two years. A successful technology sector needs access to a constant and frictionless supply of talent, which is why we have placed talent as our number one pillar for 2022. A crucial ingredient in Ireland’s success story has been the talent available to both our indigenous and multinational companies. That talent has traditionally been supplied through two streams - the output from our third level colleges and the flexibility and attractiveness of Ireland in accommodating overseas talent. Both of these streams are now under pressure and, therefore, a strong response is needed to maintain a sustainable pipeline of talent.

With regard to Ireland as a regulatory hub, the stated ambition of the Government in its national digital strategy, the Digital Ireland Framework, is to make Ireland a centre of regulatory excellence in Europe. In a time of less certainty, the best protecting mechanism that we can take in order to ensure that Ireland maintains and grows its reputation as a technology hub is to have a well-resourced regulatory structure which ensures that Ireland is seen as a safe place in which businesses can invest. Ireland needs to continue to lean into its stated ambitions in the Digital Ireland Framework, specifically where the strategy commits to a strong, stable and coherent regulatory framework for digital, with highly capable and well-resourced regulators. We have seen the resources of the Data Protection Commission, DPC, grow consistently year-on-year, but we have also seen the challenges multiply in that same timeframe. The continued resourcing of the DPC, as well as the new media regulator, will be crucial in order to preserve and protect Ireland’s hard-fought wins in this sector.

Ireland’s unique position as European HQ for many international tech companies means that we have a responsibility to lead the way in shaping good, clear, evidence-based regulation and to demonstrate best practice in the implementation of those regulations. Such leadership must begin at home. Ireland’s position as a tech hub has the eyes of Europe and the wider international world upon us. This means we should have our finger on the pulse of developments internationally that will matter to our businesses tomorrow. That is why we envision Ireland as a global regulatory hub and continue to call for increased governance capacities, given the concentration and diversity of technology companies established here. Ireland and the wider world stand at a crossroads, with crises on multiple fronts. To fortify ourselves against the headwinds, Ireland must work in tandem with global partners to influence the shape of the policy landscape we want to do business in.

I turn now to the need for cohesive policy formation. Ireland needs to have coherent policy frameworks around which technology companies can plan to a medium-term horizon with a strong degree of certainty. In this moment, while this is broadly the case, there is scope for improvement and the continued prioritisation of a digital brief within the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is a sensible approach. However, there still needs to be more co-ordination between the various Departments which are devising policies that are applicable to the technology sector as it is currently split between various Departments, each of which often has different priorities and different degrees of understanding of the nuances of the sector.

Within the Digital Ireland Framework, this too is acknowledged where it is said specifically that there is a recognition within Government that Ireland’s digital policy is likely to play an increasingly important role in shaping location decisions of multinational corporations. Equally, the Digital Ireland Framework states that there is a commitment to increasingly lead, shape and influence at EU level and to be a strong advocate for an optimal regulatory framework, namely, an agile and workable regulatory framework. This is an area where Ireland sometimes leads but sometimes is a little behind. Becoming more involved in the Digital Nations, DN, would offer a platform for Ireland to influence like-minded, forward-thinking countries in a more cohesive way in order to secure our strategic objectives. Both of these priorities within the Digital Ireland Framework need to be increasingly considered together in a strategic way in order to best preserve our hard-won advantages.

With regard to support for Irish tech SMEs, such SMEs and entrepreneurs are the lifeblood of the Irish economy. It is imperative that the SME voice is to the fore in all policy development within the sector. We campaign to improve investment supports for indigenous technology firms, reduce the cost of doing business and unlock start-up growth potential through innovation. In order to support SMEs and founder-led organisations we call for fit for purpose and accessible funding and incentives which are simple, accessible and granted in a timely fashion, and, in particular, to improve tax incentives such as capital gains tax relief, R&D tax credit, the employment incentive and investment scheme and to produce an SME tax roadmap.

We also call on the Government to ensure talent, skills and labour market is constantly reviewed to be agile, informed and interconnected to respond appropriately and in a timely fashion to the fast-paced and changing business model. We need to intensify support for SME enterprises in their digital transition to ensure our continued competitiveness. Regulatory impact assessments must be completed before rolling out any new regulations to assess their impact on start-ups in particular.

In conclusion, I assure the committee the tech sector will continue to grow in Ireland in 2023, though at a lower level than it has over the past two years. We need to continue to focus on people and talent development. As we approach CAO application time, the broader sector wishes to encourage students to consider a career in tech, which can facilitate a career in any sector in the world. Technology Ireland remains committed to working with Government and all stakeholders to meet the challenges impacting us all in order to ensure Ireland can remain a technology powerhouse.

I thank Ms Fitzpatrick. I invite members to discuss the issue with the representatives. Members participating remotely should use the raise hand function in Teams to indicate. Deputy O'Reilly is first and has 14 minutes.

I thank the Chair. I wish everyone a good morning and thank our guests for being here and for their submissions. We have heard how the State is facing several immediate competitive issues related to the carrying capacity of the economy with regard to housing, energy and water. Will our guests tell us what client companies and prospective investors have been saying on housing and the public transport infrastructure? Has the crisis in housing and infrastructure damaged our ability to attract new investments? If so, how long has that been going on for? The housing crisis did not happen overnight so I assume the impact on the sector has not occurred overnight either.

Ms Mary Buckley

In engaging with our clients we are conscious of anything that could potentially impact on their ability to operate successfully. One of the areas we engage with them on is the carrying capacity of the economy. The Deputy mentioned housing and our clients have highlighted the challenges around that. We fully recognise this is a global issue and there are many other cities that also have challenges with housing and our clients recognise that as well. They are very conscious of the need to be able to house their people in Ireland and they refer to that. One of the things I must say though is that, in all of the engagements we have, it has not actually stopped investment into Ireland. I alluded earlier to the first half of the year when we won 155 investments. That is a 9% increase on the first time last year with a commitment to 18,000 jobs. It is not impacting us but it is not helpful either, into the medium term, to be in this situation. When we talk with our clients they recognise there are plans in place, that we have come from a backdrop of ten years ago when we had a housing crisis and a significant reduction in construction, that we are really playing catch-up since then and that Covid has not helped. It is also important to highlight the focus on Housing for All and the construction of 30,000 houses per year is significant. Our clients like to hear those commitments and like to see they are obviously being implemented as well, and we can see that.

We would all like to see those commitments being implemented. However, it strikes me that when we meet businesses here and in our own constituencies, housing and the capacity for people to be able to afford housing, in the midst of a housing crisis that has been going on for quite some time, is a factor. I spoke recently to a small business owner who was considering trying to buy or build a house. This was a very small business. The owner cannot get people who can afford to live in the area. They must commute long distances, and the wages he is paying are not enough for people to commute those distances. I thank Ms Buckley and ask Ms Fitzpatrick to respond.

Ms Una Fitzpatrick

I thank the Deputy. Technology Ireland produced a report series called Future Needs, Future Thinking between 2019 and 2021. In that we highlighted infrastructure. That is a broad mix including everything from housing to energy infrastructure to transport and the road network. The feedback from the technology sector is it is about both the supply of housing and the housing mix, and that it is all of the country rather than a Dublin-only issue. It has not prevented huge levels of investment but it has been something members have sought to seek clarity on with respect to what the projections are. A lot of the decisions are being made in terms of what the expected housing output will look like in two to three years' time.

On the housing mix, given the demographics within the tech sector there was a concern if everything being build is a three-bed semi, that is not necessarily what employees of the tech sector are looking for. That is regional. Take Athlone, for example. We have quite a strong presence of technology companies there and they were saying there are not enough apartments there. It is similar with Donegal. We have a strong network of members in Letterkenny. They often say it is hard at the moment to find rental properties and the right type of rental properties as well, so this is an issue all over the country. From the members' perspective, they have been reassured by some of the indications in the Housing for All plan but I am aware there are constraints on that and obviously Covid has had an impact. It would be a concern going forward if the completion numbers were not increased.

I thank Ms Fitzpatrick. It is just over 12 months since the former Minister of State, Deputy Troy, granted confidentiality to big tech companies before a meeting to discuss the Commission's Digital Markets Act, which as we know seeks to rein in big tech companies that have created monopolies in the digital space, as well as the Digital Service Act, which we hope will create a safer digital space for users. It was reported by the Business Post that some of the companies had sought through IDA Ireland that no detailed notes be taken at the meeting, obviously through fear of what would be uncovered through freedom of information, FOI, requests. I ask because we have recently seen the conduct of some large tech companies has been nothing short of disgraceful. People have found out their livelihoods have been taken from them and they have lost their jobs by text or in the media. Finding out you have lost your job is never going to be easy but finding out like that is abhorrent. The labour laws we have in this State may not be the strongest but they exist. They were clearly bypassed in some instances. We have tech companies speaking to Ministers of State about not taking detailed notes at meetings. I therefore ask whether these companies have respect for the Government. I see a lack of respect that is quite disturbing in the way the workers have been treated and in the request that detailed minutes not be taken at meetings. I would like both bodies to answer that, in whatever order.

Ms Mary Buckley

Looking at the current situation, we have 1,700 FDI-based companies here in Ireland. Of those, 300 are tech companies. What has happened in the past few weeks is obviously that, at a global level, companies have made big decisions to reduce their global workforce by a certain percentage. Then the implementation of that actually takes some time because the big figure is announced and then it takes the company some time to work through that and what it means. For many of our client companies, without a doubt they operate with respect. They absolutely are very focused on their people and talent is a key piece for them. It is very unusual to be in a situation whereby people are informed in this regard but it is the nature of global announcements. It is hugely unfortunate people hear about these announcements at a later stage but that is exactly how it is happening in recent times because of the fact they are global announcements.

I reinforce the empathy and support that companies are providing to their people. It is not a scenario in which people are not being looked after. They are being looked after. It is also safe to say that while it is a very tough time for people to receive this bad news, there are a lot of opportunities in the tech sector. We can see that many of the companies are working with the employees to help them source alternative employment and to upskill or reskill, working with the government infrastructure to support that. It is hugely important for companies to do this when they find themselves in a situation where they have to let their employees go.

Bypassing the 30-day consultation period and only informing the Tánaiste at the last minute about a collective redundancy, when it was already public knowledge, is not a good way for any company to behave in a global, national or local context. I do not accept that because these were global announcements, they somehow get to bypass that period. They behaved in an absolutely disgraceful manner. I have spoken to some of the workers and they do not feel the empathy or support Ms Buckley spoke about. They feel that these companies showed no regard for the legal protections and processes in place or the Government. It is understandable that people facing into a cost-of-living crisis feel that. It is never a good time to lose one's job but this is probably the worst time. While I appreciate that some companies are working with their staff to help them find alternative work, not all of them are. A very unfortunate situation has developed. I appreciate what Ms Buckley said about the global situation but the manner in which this was done, including that it was done in public and the announcements were made before the Tánaiste was notified, does not send a very good message.

Ms Una Fitzpatrick

With Technology Ireland and IBEC, everything we say is published publicly and available on our website. I urge Deputies to check us out.

On the broader technology point around the ecosystem and the small number of redundancies, our membership fully respect and implement Irish labour laws. The members of Technology Ireland have asked me to state on the record that they do not want the behaviour of a small minority to be reflective of the industry as a whole and they do not support those actions. The wider industry is fully compliant with the requirements of Ireland's labour laws, and that behaviour is not standard practice.

Let us hope it does not become standard practice. To follow on from that, I appreciate that this involves a small number of companies and I am not for one moment suggesting it is the norm or that anyone in this room wants it to become the norm. It is not the norm and it should not become the norm. I fully appreciate that but there is a certain level of volatility in the tech sector. That is why we convened this meeting and asked the witnesses to speak to us this morning. This very much reinforces the need for workers to join a trade union, be active in trade unions and have a collective voice in their workplace. A form of collective bargaining will be imposed on us by the European Union by virtue of a directive. How do the companies the witnesses represent feel about trade unions? I am aware of the history of IDA Ireland and that previously there were pre-agreements - I believe the name was "sweetheart deals". Nobody wants to go back to that, including the trade unions. Given that we will have legislation and collective bargaining in the next short while, what is the view of the companies the witnesses represent?

Ms Una Fitzpatrick

Ireland has a strong voluntarist industrial relations framework. This has been effective in times of economic growth and recession. We feel it delivers industrial peace and stability. Reform of this legislation has been introduced, with the sectoral employment orders affirming the roles of the joint labour committees and registering employment agreements. The International Labour Organization conventions, which address collective bargaining, rightly focus on the fact that engagement should be voluntary. In parallel, the reforms of the Industrial Relations Act in Ireland has introduced a significant body of statutory employment rights governing everything from working hours, contracts, statutory leave and minimum wage to sick pay and work-life balance, with further legislation pending on auto-enrolment pensions, to name but a few. It is increasingly difficult to identify traditional areas of collective negotiation that are not now regulated by the State. IBEC has been working progressively with the trade union movement under the auspices of the Labour Employer Economic Forum, LEEF, collective bargaining group to promote and address any obstacles to collective bargaining engagement in our current framework. This work has proposed a set of agreed recommendations that demonstrate the best aspects of our industrial relations systems, the respect and foresight to recognise the success of the voluntarist model with its strong mix of collective and direct engagement, underpinned by a highly developed dispute resolution mechanism.

I ask Ms Buckley to contribute briefly on that point.

Ms Mary Buckley

I reinforce the point that the voluntarist approach to industrial relations is in place. It is important to note that all employees have rights under the Constitution to decide whether they want to become members of unions. Our companies will support whatever is required.

Is Ms Buckley saying there would be no hostility to trade union recognition and the collective bargaining legislation that is coming, and that it would not necessarily be a factor?

Ms Mary Buckley

The report prepared by LEEF will seek for comments and feedback from all companies. It will be important to see the feedback from them.

I thank IDA Ireland and Technology Ireland for appearing before the committee this morning. Ms Fitzpatrick spoke about the need for intensifying support for the SME sector and enterprises in the digital transition. Will Ms Fitzpatrick expand on that point? What additional supports could be provided?

Ms Una Fitzpatrick

With the Irish indigenous tech sector, it is very interesting to note from the figures produced by the Central Statistics Office, CSO, at the end of 2019 that of the numbers employed directly in the ICT sector, nearly half are employed in the indigenous tech sector. Just over half are employed in the foreign direct investment ICT sector and just under half are employed in the indigenous tech sector. While their output in terms of tax and the level of exports is different, the employment numbers in the State are pretty much half and half. This is why we feel that the SME tech community often gets less focus than its foreign direct investment counterparts. We represent both and we feel it is an ecosystem and both sides of that ecosystem have to be supported.

What is needed is an ability to attract and retain talent. That is key for tech SMEs. Obviously, they have been in severe competition with the foreign direct investment community over the past two years. An unfortunate byproduct, or perhaps a fortunate byproduct, of some of the recent announcements may be the increased availability of staff to the indigenous tech sector. It is about high-quality tech skills and the ability to either upskill or attract in that talent from outside of the country. Issues such as visas and work permits can often come to the fore. It also involves supports for research and development. Companies often tell us it is so bureaucratic and burdensome to apply for a research and development tax credit, for example, that they do not bother because they would literally have to employ somebody to do that as a full-time job. Supports can be difficult to access for smaller companies and that can present as a barrier. We fully understand the rationale for procedures being put in place if large companies are availing of tech supports. However, it should definitely be made simpler and more straightforward for smaller companies.

Mr. Erik O'Donovan

To build on Ms Fitzpatrick's comments, another area that could actually help SMEs is in procurement. The Government can act as a catalyst in driving digitalisation. The 2019 Cruinniú GovTech report is about encouraging GovTech.

Through procurement it is possible to bolster our indigenous tech sector. Implementation of the recommendations of that Cruinniú GovTech report would be great. Procurement on the cloud can also bring benefits to the public sector. We should also build on talent and not just say that talent is important. As a practical solution in our budget submission, we proposed leveraging the National Training Fund, NTF, which has a surplus of nearly €1 billion. Leveraging that to pay for the upskilling and reskilling of people would also be useful.

I think this point has been touched on by colleagues from IDA Ireland. This digital transition is not only happening in the technology sector, but in the wider economy as well. The Data Protection Commissioner, Helen Dixon, has said we are all data companies. It is arguable that we are all technology companies in terms of manufacturing, SMEs and so on. We have done research and other research has been done by Amárach and the CSO, showing that the smaller firms understand this is important. They are ambitious in this. Supports are in place but the message we want to deliver today is that we need to go further. Considerable effort is being put in, but we have more to do on this. The evidence suggests that about 62% of SMEs currently feel they are about halfway on their digital journey but they need help on the strategic clarity of what to do next with investment. As Ms Fitzpatrick said, having the rights skills is also important. Our research on founders found that nearly nine out of ten founders say that digital skills are important or very important to their future success. However, half of them feel they do not yet have the skills to meet that business need.

I thank Mr. O'Donovan for that comprehensive answer. I am conscious of the clock. Ms Buckley spoke about the continual strong flow of investment since reporting mid-year results. All members will be delighted to hear that. Has IDA Ireland seen less investment in the technology sector as a whole this year, compared with previous years? There have been predictions of a slowdown within the sector for some time.

Ms Mary Buckley

No, we have not seen a slowdown in technology investment this year. As I said, the first half of the year was quite strong with 155 investments. I do not have the breakdown of how many are technology companies, but it would have been a significant proportion. My colleague Mr. Travers, who heads up our technology division, might be able to add to that.

Mr. Donal Travers

There has been a consistent strong flow of investment this year. We have seen a number of those publicly announced across the country. We were in Cork for the past three Fridays with some of our clients making announcements or opening new offices. We have had a number of announcements in Galway, Limerick and in many parts of the country as well as obviously in Dublin where there is a large established base. The investment flow this year has been strong. There is still a healthy pipeline of investments for next year in a number of different areas. There is definitely a slowing pulse in those investments for the year ahead.

I need to be in the Seanad Chamber at 10.30 so I will leave it at that for now.

I apologise because I will need to leave later as I have another event at 10.45. I welcome our guests this morning and thank them for a most interesting and ambitious presentation. It is great that Mr. Travers was in Cork and other places announcing jobs and I hope he can keep that up.

Ms Fitzpatrick mentioned the digital nations and that we should become more involved. I believe we are not involved at all. From what I can see, there are ten other countries - Estonia, Israel, South Korea, New Zealand, the UK, Canada, Uruguay, Mexico, Portugal and Denmark. I ask her to tell us a bit more about that and why we should get involved.

Ms Una Fitzpatrick

It is a suggestion. I know we are already involved. My colleague may be able to speak about the D9 group at the European level. The suggestion about the digital nations is to encourage discussion and debate with like-minded, open, strategic economies like Ireland. At a global level, there may be questions on strategic autonomy and sovereignty issues within the tech sector. If we can encourage positive debate and discussion on policies and future directions with like-minded countries, I hope we can alleviate some of those pressures.

Perhaps that is something we can explore further. I had not heard of it until now. I thank Ms Fitzpatrick for bringing that to our attention. She also mentioned that the digitally intensive sector - she might define that further for me in a minute - employs over 270,000 people with the highest annual average earnings in the country and €8.5 billion in wages in 2019. What would be the typical take-home pay of somebody in the sector?

Ms Una Fitzpatrick

It is hard to say as there is a broad mix. In terms of the CSO averages, we are-----

Mr. Erik O'Donovan

For new entrants, according to the CSO report, it is about €45,000.

And mid-way-----

Ms Una Fitzpatrick

We in Technology Ireland do an annual salary report of members. It is not the same as the CSO data and covers 70 different job roles. On average, the salaries are in excess of €60,000.

Therefore, it is pretty well paid and provides other perks as well. I thank Ms Fitzpatrick for that.

I have a question for our IDA Ireland colleagues and Ms Fitzpatrick might wish to come back on it also. We had much discussion earlier this year on remote working, hybrid working and working from home. In July, the Scottish Government gave £42 million to CodeBase to launch a network of tech hubs. Do we need to do more to encourage and support remote working? I know that a considerable amount of work has been done by the Department of Rural and Community Development in setting up connected hubs, but many of them are quite small. Is there potential for something bigger involving larger hubs? That would do two things. It would improve the quality of life with people no longer required to travel long distances every day twice a day and it would also help our climate targets as it would reduce pollution. Has IDA Ireland looked at that and considered it as a way to help companies to retain employees? Rather than having it all concentrated in the cities, are any of the larger companies here considering outsourcing some of their work to towns such as Youghal in my constituency which could have a hub like that? I am sure my other colleagues would have similar examples.

Ms Mary Buckley

There are a large number of hubs around the country and people go to those locations to work every day. We have a range of companies involved in manufacturing, services, and research, development and innovation. Remote and-or hybrid can work for some but it does not work in certain sectors. As companies coming to Ireland get up and running, they generally indicate they would like a mix of hybrid and remote working. We are seeing an increase in those numbers and employees are working either in hub locations or from home. I have not heard that there is a shortage or a deficiency in any shape or form. The private and public sectors have seen the requirement for hub working and they have been developed in a number of locations around the country. Obviously, in west Cork there is a very popular one. It all depends on what each company is doing. Some choose hybrid. Some have people in the office for four or five days a week. Others have a manufacturing footprint where it does not work. The hubs then kick in, often depending on what people themselves want to do.

Does IDA Ireland have a written policy on remote and hybrid working?

Does IDA Ireland promote or support it in any way?

Ms Mary Buckley

Yes, we do. We look to the future of work and we always look head to the business needs, etc., of our clients, particularly at times of significant competition globally to attract and win talent. Ireland has a 4.3% unemployment rate at the moment. On that basis, employees, particularly post Covid, often say they would like to work from home or avail of hybrid working. Employers have policies in place and certainly they work very well. IDA Ireland encourages it but we do not have a policy for hybrid or remote working over any other type of working. It all depends on the mix and what a company plans to do. We also consider other questions like the substance behind their activities and the numbers they are employing. Right across the board, we have a good mix of companies that are doing hybrid and remote working, which are popular options.

Has IDA Ireland ever explored the possibility of establishing hubs? It often has advance factories, office spaces, and so on but has it ever explored the possibility of establishing advance working hub spaces?

Ms Mary Buckley

What we always do when looking at advance factories, office spaces or anything like that, we check to see where the private sector has failed to invest and where there are locations that would be attractive from the perspective of FDI. We ran a pilot scheme in one location, Sligo, and that is up and running. Beyond that, we see that quite a number of hubs are available. If that were to change, we would review our plans. The private sector, some Government bodies, local authorities, etc., are involved in this area, so we do not currently see a requirement or a demand for us to do anything like that. I assure the Deputy that we always review the property landscape to see what is required and what meets the needs of our businesses into the future.

I congratulate IDA Ireland on the amazing work that it has done to date. Every time I read a newspaper, I see the name of another company that I have never heard of before which has decided to base itself here. That is fantastic to see.

I ask Ms Fitzpatrick to comment on the same issue and on the whole area of energy supply and costs.

Ms Una Fitzpatrick

To echo the points expressed by Ms Buckley, the vast majority of our members, whom we poll quite regularly, have adopted some form of hybrid working, where possible. Every business is different so the mix will be different.

As to whether there a need for hubs, we can definitely see there is a supply of hubs and they are being utilised. I do not mean to caution against them because I believe they are very appropriate, but the only issue that has come up for some members is the nature of work that some people do. There is, therefore, a need for data protection and very secure lines from a cybersecurity point of view. Unfortunately, hubs are not a panacea for everything because for some people working from home may mean working from a very dedicated terminal at their home location so as to ensure there is cybersecurity.

On energy supply and the increasing cost of energy, the sector is very broad. There are manufacturing elements and software is a service element, which are different cost bases entirely. For the more energy intensive parts of the sector, the number one priority is a guaranteed energy supply although cost is a major issue. For industry and companies in the manufacturing sphere, security of supply is the most important aspect.

I thank our guests.

The Central Statistics Office, CSO, has published figures that show 50,000 extra people have been employed in the ICT sector in the past four years, which is a truly staggering increase in the sector. The announcements made in recent days are a timely warning that we cannot take these jobs for granted.

Do we have a sufficient spread in the ICT sector? Are some segments of the sector, while others have overreached and are suffering a correction? If so, what is the scale of the correction? Are some entering into cyclical problems? For example, the chip sector is often subjected to significant volatility. I would like to get a deeper dive into what is happening in the different segments of the sector.

On the area of skills, I note there are a lot of vacancies and I hope the people who have, sadly, been impacted by redundancies can avail of them. To what extent does Technology Ireland use apprenticeships? The Government has made major efforts to expand the range of apprenticeships, for example, through the Springboard and human capital initiatives. There is a lot happening in government to respond to labour and skills shortages. Is ICT a big player in apprenticeships? Traditionally, the multinationals were not big players in the apprenticeship field. How big are apprenticeships? Can more momentum be created in the ICT sectors and other IDA Ireland-type sectors to become a significant channel? Earning as you learn suits quite a number of people.

My final question is for Technology Ireland. The witnesses spoke of fears concerning the direction of regulatory change and capacity. What are those concerns?

Mr. Donal Travers

On diversity in the sector, to go back a level, the growth of the technology sector over the past ten years, particularly over the last four years, has been driven by wider trends and digitalisation across the broad economy. As both Ms Buckley and Ms Fitzpatrick mentioned, every company is now digital or relies on digital technologies for its business. That is the underlying trend in the tech sector. There is growth on the back of the digital trend across all sectors of the economy.

Where Ireland has been successful over the last several years has been in the areas of cloud, cloud infrastructure, the applications that sit in the cloud and their software applications. Twenty years ago, when Ireland was considered to be one of the largest exporters of software in the world, that software was distributed via printed discs that were packaged, shrink-wrapped and sent around the world. That work is now being done from a data centre. Ireland is a leading location both for the infrastructure and the software applications that are delivered from here. The number of companies in the software sector has grown in recent years.

Other areas in which Ireland is strong, to respond to the Deputy, are semi-conductors and related chip design or micro-electronics. There is also cybersecurity which, again, pervades every business sector. We are diversified across all of those key areas of the sector right now. Some are more cyclical than others and some will be more impacted in the short term than others. The one thing I can say is that it is a long-term growth trajectory for the sector based on long-term needs for new digital technologies, and we are diversified across that.

We are looking at new technology areas like quantum, augmented reality, AR, and virtual reality, VR, as well as artificial intelligence and machine learning technologies that, again, impact on all sectors of the economy not just the tech sector. The growth in digitalisation across the broad economy is what is driving investment in the tech sector and the investment by tech companies in Ireland.

The next speaker is Senator Marie Sherlock.

Some answers to my question remain outstanding.

Ms Una Fitzpatrick

In terms of skills and alternative or additional pathways, the sector is very supportive of those. I am on the board of Fasttrack into Information Technology, FIT, which co-ordinates and runs technology apprenticeships all over the country. Specifically in the areas of software and cybersecurity, there is huge demand from industry. We are really trying to increase the numbers through these programmes. There is a great willingness from industry. I take the Deputy's point that some of the larger companies were perhaps slower to look at that route but it has definitely opened up now. The largest companies are significantly involved.

Does Ms Fitzpatrick have numbers? How many apprenticeships are there?

Ms Una Fitzpatrick

At the moment, we have over 600 apprenticeships going through both of those pipelines and, I think, in excess of 470 have been completed. It takes time.

Is that number small for a sector with 166,000 employees?

Ms Una Fitzpatrick

Yes. We are pushing to increase the numbers and get funding to increase them. Again, one of our calls from the National Training Fund is that the new apprentices need to be as supported as the traditional apprentices. Unfortunately, that has not been the case to date.

With regard to the lifelong learning and upskilling aspects, we in Technology Ireland have two skillnets, the Technology Ireland ICT Skillnet and the Technology Ireland Digital Skillnet. As an industry, we are very much committed and involved with regard to lifelong learning, which is really important within the sector to create momentum and drive the changes that are happening. This is a sector in which there are no jobs for life. The job you will be doing in ten years' time probably has not even been developed yet so we fully support the constant need to upskill and reskill. As an industry, we look at all of the different pathways. It is no longer the case that you just do your college degree and then go into the sector. There are multiple alternative pathways into the sector. Probably the most important thing coming out of the sector is that there is no full stop. The technology sector involves lifelong learning and continuous learning because it is constantly changing. That is what is most important.

I am glad the Chair gave time for that contribution because it was really important. I will come back to the whole lifelong learning piece in a minute. I thank IDA Ireland and Technology Ireland for appearing before the committee this morning. I will direct my initial questions to IDA Ireland. Obviously, it has a very long and proud tradition of bringing foreign direct investment into this country but I would like to understand a little bit about the changing relationship with its client companies. In her contribution, Ms Buckley talked about staying close to the IDA's existing client companies. I would like to understand a little bit more about the influence or interaction the IDA has with companies when they decide to expand or to downsize. I particularly think of the bid for Intel's €33 billion megafab semiconductor manufacturing plant earlier this year, which Ireland ultimately did not win. I assume the IDA worked closely with Intel in respect of that competitive process. In contrast, is there a very different relationship with the likes of the technology services firms, particularly the likes of Twitter and Meta? To what extent was the IDA informed of their expansion over recent years and their more recent contraction? What is the difference between the IDA's relationship with technology manufacturing firms and technology services firms? To what extent does it have influence over those technology services firms it was involved in bringing to this country? What is the ongoing relationship with these firms like?

Ms Mary Buckley

I will start and then perhaps Mr. Travers can cover anything I do not mention in a minute. We have a long relationship with our client companies regardless of the sector they are in. In the case of many companies looking at a location in which to invest, we are competing with other locations. It is not the case that a company just says it wants to go to Ireland. A great amount of analysis and investigation is done in respect of each location to ensure the company is going to the right location, the one that meets its business needs. Through our overseas offices, IDA Ireland targets companies. We engage with them and see what they are planning to do, usually through their strategies. We then work to win their investment for Ireland when they are looking to invest internationally. We have a strong value proposition and we work through that with them. The relationship is all about competing to win. This is where we talk about having the right education system, infrastructure and so on in place. Those are the types of-----

I am sorry to interrupt but I am asking about when they are here in Ireland. What I am really asking is-----

Ms Mary Buckley

Yes, when they are expanding.

-----whether the IDA's influence or relationship with the likes of the technology services companies is much weaker in contrast with the technology manufacturing companies. I am probably clumsily making a distinction between the two.

Ms Mary Buckley

There is no difference in our relationship with services companies and manufacturing companies. We work very closely with both. Indeed, some companies have both manufacturing and services as part of their operations here. There is no difference in those relationships. Manufacturing is, by its nature, capital intensive so the locations companies decide on do have to meet certain specific requirements. It is similar for technology services companies, although in a different way. Our relationships with the companies are very strong. They have to be. We commit to an ongoing engagement and relationship with companies. That does not change. We work with them to embed them here and to see what additional activities we can win for their Irish operations. We also work with them on the area of training and education because the skills they need today may not be the skills they will need in the future. We work all the time to upgrade, upskill and reskill. Companies are doing the lifelong learning that Ms Fitzpatrick spoke about and we work with them in that regard. Whether it is services or manufacturing, we have a working relationship with these firms to ensure that their operating environment here is right and to see how their activities and mandates here can be expanded. This ultimately aligns with our focus, which is to win investments and jobs for Ireland.

To that issue of working with the companies, did Twitter or Meta benefit from any financial assistance from the IDA in deciding to locate in Ireland?

Ms Mary Buckley

We usually engage with companies through grants. There is no grant paid to either company at this point. I do not particularly wish to discuss any individual company but, across the board, we do pay grants to some companies while we do not pay grants to others. It all depends on locations, EU state aid guidelines and so on. We adhere to all EU requirements.

Mr. Donal Travers

On the original question, the principles of how we engage with companies are the same whether dealing with a hardware, software or services company. When we are having discussions with client companies about onboarding and helping them to scale, we tell them that, from an Irish perspective, our role as a Stage agency is to build a partnership over their business's lifetime here. It is not transactional. The principles are the same whether it is a semiconductor company or a technology platform or services company. What is different between the two is the complexity of the relationship. In the case of a large hardware company that has invested billions of euros in Ireland, the complexities involved in those conversations can be different and broader. For a platform or digital services company, the complexities can be on the regulatory side that Ms Fitzpatrick and Mr. O'Donovan have spoken about. The principles are the very same, however.

To be clear, Twitter and Meta did not receive any financial assistance in their decisions to locate here in Ireland.

As the Senator knows, we should not go into the affairs of individual companies.

I know but it is important. Have the broad spectrum of platform companies received financial assistance in their decisions to locate in this country?

Mr. Donal Travers

Without commenting on individual companies, those big platform companies are largely located in Dublin. Regional aid, which is used to attract a company to a specific location, is not available in Dublin or, for the most part, in Cork. The answer is therefore "No", broadly speaking. We do get involved in some such companies with regard to training and research and development support. That is to specifically incentivise companies to train their staff, to change the skill levels of their staff or to scale up research and development or engineering activity here in Ireland.

That is great. I thank Mr. Travers.

I will address the area of technology sector, if I may, and then address issues regarding the IDA in a second round. I thank Ms Buckley for her written contribution. I will split it into three parts and ask Ms Buckley to address the three. In the first part, the IDA has highlighted the need for investment in skills, research, innovation. Ireland is a centre of regulatory excellence and the IDA is calling for the continuing resourcing of the Data Protection Commission, the setting up on a new media regulator and the establishment of a digital brief within the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. That is the first part.

In the second part, Ms Buckley spoke about the SME incentives and an SME tax roadmap. Would IBEC and Technology Ireland support the creation of a new agency for our indigenous SME sector? They do not have to be exporting businesses.

We need another agency to support our indigenous SME sector.

One of the witnesses referenced procurement opportunities and leveraging the National Training Fund. I have seen a number of initiatives that tried to get procurement within the multinational sector to integrate with the indigenous sector, but it is difficult for small indigenous companies to get on an approved procurement list. Similarly, the Government does not do enough to make our procurement guidelines attractive and to ensure that smaller companies can access procurement.

I would appreciate it if the witnesses covered these three areas in their responses, if possible.

Ms Una Fitzpatrick

I thank the Deputy for his questions. I will try to cover one or two of them and will ask my colleague, Mr. O'Donovan, to cover the third.

The skills, research and innovation base and regulatory excellence comprise a broad enough category, but I suppose it is all linked. I apologise to Deputy Bruton, who raised the issue of regulatory capacity but whose question I did not answer sufficiently. The level and amount of tech regulation at European and Irish levels is ever increasing and is predicted to only go in one direction. We have called for yearly increases in the resources of the DPC in order to ensure they are adequate. Once the resourcing level is adequate, industry will be satisfied.

Regarding the new media commission, coimisiún na meán, the next 12 months in that space will be important for Ireland. How we implement the Digital Services Act and the Digital Markets Act will see the eyes of Europe, if not the world, on Ireland. The role of the digital services co-ordinator, which is in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment but will sit within coimisiún na meán and be co-ordinated by the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, will be an interesting dynamic, given that there will be two Departments with roles in one regulator. Ensuring that this system runs smoothly and cohesively will be important from the industry's perspective. It has to happen at pace. A new regulator has to be established and staffed. It is positive that the regulator will be hiring more than 70 roles next January. That is the level of activity that needs to happen, with a swift upskilling and absorption of people. Obviously, personnel will move over from what was formerly the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland into coimisiún na meán, and it is important that there be cohesiveness in that. The major ramping up of the regulator's formation will be of particular importance.

Regarding SME incentives, it would be useful to have a consultation on the concept of another agency. I do not know that my membership is necessarily calling for that. My members get good support from Enterprise Ireland. Some companies have grown into large organisations, moved beyond being start-ups, including high-potential start-ups, and reached a critical point. Perhaps they have crossed the threshold from being Enterprise Ireland clients to being IDA Ireland clients and are establishing offices worldwide and attracting global investment back to Ireland. The Deputy's proposition is interesting. A consultation with wider industry as well as practitioners would be useful for an informed discussion on how it would work.

I will hand over to Mr. O'Donovan for the question on procurement and the NTF, although it is a matter close to my heart. We in Technology Ireland have done a great deal of work on cloud procurement. The procurement of cloud at Government level is of particular importance to us, not only from the point of view of better delivery of public services in terms of efficiencies, but also the ability of smaller companies and other companies that are based in Ireland to engage with a framework for providing services. Currently, this procurement is happening ad hoc and there is no overall framework. Thankfully, a consultation has been announced around the establishment of a cloud framework at Government level. We are happy to see this positive development.

Mr. Erik O'Donovan

I will build on some of the points Ms Fitzpatrick made. If we are a digital hub, we need to be a regulatory hub as well. Hence, the need to be prepared for incoming regulations and to have the capacities in place for them. I believe the DPC's 2023 allocation is approximately €26 million. That is nearly 5.5 times greater than its 2016 allocation. This increase is because of the volume of work the DPC has to do. It is essentially a strong regulator in Europe. Research by Amárach and William Fry points to the fact that regulatory capacity is an investment attractor, so it is not just me saying this.

The issues of digital safety and privacy are important, but an issue that we have not touched on is that of cyber. Funding for the National Cyber Security Centre is ramping up, which is good to see. All of these bodies need to be adequately resourced. We would support that. Linking the issue of cyber back to the issue of procurement that the Deputy raised, I believe there were 28 recommendations - do not quote me on this because I could be wrong, but that is the number off the top of my head - in the Cruinniú report on how to stimulate GovTech in procurement. This is the idea that, by digitalising public services, a certain number of SMEs will be involved in providing those services. The recommendations are good, we welcome them and we would encourage their implementation.

According to a study by Cyber Ireland in the cybersecurity sector, it is not just a question of regulatory capacity, but also of using that regulatory capacity to grow jobs or, in other words, to grow competencies and capacities. There are companies that could service this. It would not be easy to do, given that there are state aid rules and the like to be considered, but some of the recommendations that have been made are welcome and we would like to see them being implemented.

I will make a final observation. Recently, I attended a wind networking meeting where I met people from the UK who were involved in cybersecurity. They told me that we had no cybersecurity framework for the wind generation we were planning. I assume this is something that the witnesses' organisations wish to pressure the Government to address.

I thank our guests for their informative presentations. I will begin with Ms Buckley. I acknowledge that IDA Ireland has done a terrific job of attracting investment to Limerick where I live. It has been a good news story for the most part. However, the Chair and I have engaged with employers from the tech sector in Limerick regarding the National Technology Park in particular. They have expressed concerns to us about the challenge posed by housing. It is becoming problematic and may impact their ability to win future investments from within their own firms and to deliver the jobs they want to deliver. These are good employers that offer good careers. Housing is a major issue. The employers have also liaised directly with the local authority on this matter. Ms Buckley acknowledged the housing challenge when she spoke about capacity restraints. We have the most expensive rents in Europe. This is not just the case in Dublin - rents in Limerick have increased by 17% annually.

It is a particular issue for some IDA-related companies in the tech sector. I will give our guests an opportunity to comment on that point. When we hear that message, we know there is a problem. The first thing we have to do is to face up to the fact there is a problem and then see what else can be done. Unfortunately, as our guests know, we are not hitting our targets. We are not even spending the money we are supposed to be spending on housing. I know first-hand it is a particular problem. I will give our guests an opportunity to respond, if they would.

Ms Mary Buckley

We engage with our clients across the country and discuss infrastructure. Housing is obviously a key part of that. In the statement from the IDA, we highlighted that housing, planning, etc., are areas where we need to ensure we have the carrying capacity for a modern economy into the future. We have highlighted that housing is an issue. As the Senator said, our clients tell us it is an issue and we are conscious of that. We are also conscious that our clients often tell us that housing is a challenging issue in other large cities across the globe. As a country, we are trying to play catch-up at the moment. We are playing catch-up because of the property crisis. Little housing has been constructed over the years and we fell further behind during the pandemic. With Housing For All, our companies can see there is a plan. There is construction in place and housing completions have increased in more recent times. It is hopeful that there are strong plans in place and we are seeing increased construction. We have received feedback from our clients about the challenges of housing but as I said earlier, there were 155 investments last year and in the first half of this year, involving a commitment to 18,000 jobs. Approximately 73 of those investments are going to regional locations around the country. We are seeing investment continue even though we face these challenges. FDI makes up approximately 11% of the labour force. That said, there is no denying that our clients have commented on the issue.

I thank Ms Buckley. I am conscious that her colleague wants to come in and I am short of time. I ask Mr. Fanning to come in.

Mr. Tommy Fanning

We monitor the situation closely. Ms Buckley has mentioned Housing For All. The Housing For All figures target an average build of 33,000 units per year across the decade. We are not there yet. The target for this year will be met but we must look forward. To the broader point, it is a major issue from talking to our clients.

The other piece the Government is doing is the Attorney General's review of the planning legislation. We await the results of that because it is very important to accelerate the building of housing. There is talk already about the need for skills on the apprenticeship side. That also applies to construction. In the market now, everyone with construction skills is employed. We need more construction skills if we are to build more houses. This year, we will hit and perhaps exceed the target of 26,400 units. However, we need to be getting up into the high 30,000s if we are going to reach the targeted average to 2030. That is important to our clients throughout the country, be it in Limerick, Cork, Galway, Donegal or Dublin. That is necessary.

There are many individual, positive actions from the Government, such as the work being done by the Land Development Agency, LDA. We are engaged with the LDA to provide land that can be suitable for housing. However, we need to get planning permission through so construction can start.

I apologise for interrupting but I am short on time. I thank our guests for their answers. That pipeline is not visible in Limerick right now but let us park that point.

I will move to my colleagues from IBEC. At the end of her presentation, Ms Fitzpatrick mentioned encouraging students to consider a career in technology. That still seems to be a challenge. Speaking to employers, there seems to be a challenge in respect of encouraging students to pursue technology. There is also a specific challenge in respect of gender. Can our guests comment on that? What else do we need to do to close that gender gap?

Ms Una Fitzpatrick

Unfortunately, the number of females in the tech industry continues to be a problem despite long advocacy work and work across the board by many people in this room and many agencies and Departments. The levels are not where we want them to be. The Irish level is above the European average but that average is very low so that does not say a whole lot. Efforts are being made. The industry is committed on the issue and anything that can be done is being done. There are many programmes in that regard. We run a number of female-driven Skillnet programmes. Women ReBOOT is a particularly notable example. However, the pipeline is a concern in respect purely of the numbers coming through, leaving gender concerns aside. We have always tried to do some forecasting for the numbers that are going to be needed. Somebody once said that if everyone doing the leaving certificate next year did a technology or tech-type course, it still would not be enough in four years' time. That is the level of the shortfall.

The thing with technology is that it is ubiquitous and cross-sectoral. As Mr. O'Donovan mentioned earlier, it is not just the tech sector that needs these skills. We are in competition with many other sectors, including the banking, medical technology and pharmaceutical industries. Everyone is looking for these skills. There are negative headlines at the moment, which is understandable, but we need the mammies, daddies and students of Ireland not to turn away from considering tech as a career because tech skills offer the opportunity to have a career in any sector. They are a great foundation for anyone. There is still a lot of work to do in respect of driving up the numbers in the different pathways. I mentioned to Deputy Bruton that there are many alternative pathways into the sector as well as the traditional routes. We must, in particular, increase female participation. Computer science is now available at leaving certificate level. We must ensure that is rolled out as far and wide as possible, especially among schools availing of the Delivering Equality of Opportunity in Schools, DEIS, scheme, and female-only schools. We are conscious of that and are working with the Department in that regard. It takes time to implement change but it would help if there was earlier exposure for students. One has to be able to see it to be it. Many of our companies, post pandemic, can now facilitate student visits again. We hope that will help.

Ms Mary Buckley

I want to come back in to respond to the Senator's comment in respect of the pipeline and investments in Limerick. I am also from Limerick and I know well the significant level of announcements that have been made this year.

I referred to the pipeline of housing rather than the pipeline of investments.

Ms Mary Buckley

Okay.

I was complimentary in respect of what the IDA has done in Limerick, to be clear. I am concerned about the pipeline of housing.

Ms Mary Buckley

I thought the Senator had said there was a lack of investments in the city.

Not at all. Quite the opposite, in fact. That was why I started my contribution by complimenting the excellent work the IDA has done.

Ms Mary Buckley

Okay.

I am glad to clear that up.

Ms Mary Buckley

I thank the Senator.

I am also from Limerick. We have been very happy with the announcements that have been made in recent years.

Ms Mary Buckley

That is great.

The more the better.

I would like to raise another issue. Mr. Travers outlined that data centres are driving much of the dynamism in this sector. If one listened to the commentary, one would think that data centres were the cause of all our energy and climate challenges. It is important to hear from our guests what the role of data centres is. Long term, we have a great opportunity in respect of offshore wind. We have the capacity to be a good location for data centres, which are a dynamic hub of the sector. I know there are short-term difficulties but taking the long-term context, I would be interested to hear the views of our guests.

I am interested in the wider issue of what one might call circularity. It seems to me that the smart use of resources is one area in which the technology sector could help Ireland to become a leader. We are not good at that. In construction, only 10% of waste is recovered. With the technology of barcoding, tracing and traceability, and recovery, it seems that the technology sector could play a role in brokering a better circular approach which would have big impacts.

My final question concerns the need for regulators to catch up with the likes of privacy protection developments and fake news. The direction is to try to manage these more effectively, for all sorts of important reasons, in the longer term. Are the sector and IDA Ireland anticipating the impact changes that are undoubtedly in the public interest will have on the sector? Can they position themselves to ensure the changes will represent an opportunity for the sector rather than a challenge?

Mr. Donal Travers

The Deputy is absolutely right. It is easy to say the world runs on data centres today but the reality is that more and more business is done through them. The centres perform a really important role, whether it involves hosting applications that enable children to learn from home and employees to work remotely, as we saw during Covid, or the livestreaming of a session like this. Many of the applications that IDA Ireland uses, including our customer-relationship platform or our email application, are run from a data centre. Businesses rely on data centres increasingly. Consumers rely on them also, not just for shopping but also for entertainment and streaming content into homes. That often attracts some negative commentary but the reality is that data centres play a fundamental role in life.

From a technology sector perspective, we are lucky to have in Ireland some of the world's leading data centre companies, particularly the major cloud infrastructure providers, for a couple of reasons. First, they anchor their business in Ireland, but they also anchor the businesses that follow them. The software of many of the software companies in Ireland involves a service business. The term "software as a service" means the software is hosted. In many cases, it is hosted on the infrastructure provided by the big hyper-scale companies that have infrastructure here. A data centre is, therefore, not just an anchor but also an attraction for software companies that might wish to locate and scale here.

The point the Deputy made on Ireland being a great location for renewables is absolutely correct. I have heard that from 35 GW to 70 GW of offshore wind energy will be available to Ireland over the next couple of decades. Not only will we be able to provide enough power for our data centres but hopefully we will also be able to export power, in whatever form it might take. The data centres are at the front in bringing renewables onto the grid and in innovating strategies for doing so. Members might have read today that Microsoft has announced deals to bring another 900 MW of renewable energy onto the grid in Ireland. That is close to 20% of Ireland's national grid capacity in today's terms. The capacity will come over several years. Data centres are certainly at the forefront in getting Ireland renewables-ready. They have the means, ingenuity and strategy to develop renewables. All the major data centres here have a strategy to be carbon neutral very soon – Microsoft by 2025 and others in similar timeframes. They certainly have the means and people to enable that to happen.

Maybe the representative from Technology Ireland could comment on the other two issues.

Mr. Erik O'Donovan

The evidence on regulation and member surveys suggests regulatory capacity is an investment attractor.

On the Deputy's point on the need to catch up and the question of how to build capacity, there are provisions in upcoming regulations on artificial intelligence on the use of regulatory sandboxes. The idea is that you use a framework that enables companies to test innovations and work in the public interest while working with the regulators to identify gaps or things that did not occur during the innovation phase. Through the use of regulatory sandboxes, there is an opportunity to build not only capacity in innovation but also capacity in the regulators, the aim being to equip them with skills.

I agree with the Deputy on circularity. The European Commission's Executive Vice-President, Ms Margrethe Vestager, spoke recently, on 30 September, to an IBEC audience about the digital transition. She said there is no turning back and that to solve problems and shorten current crises, we need some of the things that the digital and green transitions can bring. She very much said both are contingent on each other, or that there is a relationship between the two. As the Deputy said, digital passports and such things can help with the circularity processes and so on that people wish to build. It is very much an enabler-----

The call is to press innovation in this sphere. There is a huge opportunity for all the witnesses. Maybe Ireland is behind the pace.

I thank the Deputy. That concludes round one. Before we proceed to round two, I have a question for Ms Buckley on collective redundancy, which she mentioned in her opening statement. Have any companies been fined for not notifying the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment that there was going to be a collective redundancy? What is the maximum fine that has been applied? I do not want her to mention specific companies.

Ms Mary Buckley

The Chairman would have to engage with the Department on that.

I thank Ms Buckley. We will now proceed with round two. I call Deputy Louise O'Reilly.

In Ms Buckley's opening statement, she said IDA Ireland will do all it can to match the employees who are being laid off with the extensive employment opportunities that still exist across the economy. I am just looking for some information on how that works. Does it happen only with IDA Ireland client companies, or is it a matter on which IDA Ireland engages more broadly? Not all the companies laying off workers are client companies. Some of them may be behaving disgracefully and others may not be.

Could we have sight of where the vacancies are and what types of jobs they entail? Does Ms Buckley envisage a match-up in respect of them?

Ms Mary Buckley

What we do in IDA Ireland is engage with companies when there are job losses and seek to determine the skill sets of the individuals affected. We then seek to align those skill sets with what is required in other companies in Ireland, maybe in the relevant sector but also in others. We do this in partnership with our colleagues in Enterprise Ireland. The Government system also has facilities to help us in that regard. We stay very close and try to ensure, in times like these, that everybody is aware of the opportunities available to them.

That is very high-level stuff. At a more practical level, does IDA Ireland send personnel into the relevant companies? Does it wait for people to approach it? When it is working with the Department, what is the process? We all accept there should be co-operation and that workers should be matched up with employers where jobs exist, but how does it work in practice?

Ms Mary Buckley

We bring other arms of the State in to meet the companies when people are losing their jobs. We engage with other arms of the State. We do not provide jobs for anybody but try to ensure people have a roadmap to determine what they want to do. We engage with SOLAS and engage at regional skills fora, etc., so people will be aware of the opportunities available, the skills they might require and where they may need to upskill or reskill.

I am conscious that 140 people from a social media platform were laid off. I will not name it but we all know which one we are talking about. I will use that as an example. Has IDA Ireland spoken directly to any of the workers? Has there been any direct engagement or will that happen through the Department? How will that happen? We are talking about 140 people with specific sets of skills. The witnesses from IDA Ireland say there are extensive employment opportunities, which is great, but how do they get matched up with these job opportunities?

Ms Mary Buckley

There are a number of different ways in which companies and people can engage. What usually happens is that those are brought to meet the individuals involved. For example, Solas has a major role to play here along with Fastrack into Information Technology and Skillnet Ireland. All these groups are part and parcel of the support network for people who are losing their jobs to help to train and see what they would like to do when it comes to next steps. The second part involves looking at what opportunities are there for them as they lose their jobs. We would not engage directly with the individuals involved.

Who is engaging with the individuals involved?

Ms Mary Buckley

It would be the other arms of the State such as Solas

So Solas has already engaged with these people.

Ms Mary Buckley

Consultation is taking place with many of them. That is probably the first part of it.

While that is the aspiration, I am not convinced that is happening in respect of the 140 people who have lost their jobs.

Mr. Donal Travers

A consultation process is ongoing with many of the companies that are in the public domain. In many of those cases, nobody has been laid off yet and obviously we hope that the numbers could be fewer than those in the statutory notification to the Department.

From a practical perspective, the way it works in my team is that every company has a relationship manager in my team so it is very close to the management and leadership teams within those companies. In some cases, particularly at the moment, the conversation would be very regular. As the numbers are being discerned and the detail is being gathered, we will profile that detail and share it with other companies we know are hiring and try to match up those skills.

To add to Ms Buckley's point, where there is a training need, we have our training supports we can offer to companies and we do deploy those where possible. It also involves introductions to Skillnet Ireland, which has programmes like the pathway to tech skills; Fastrack into Information Technology; and Solas so there are lots of other State supports that can be brought on board. As a first measure, it is about profiling impacted skills at the earliest possible opportunity and making other people in our global teams aware at a really practical level of the skills and profiles - not down to the individual name but, say, ten people in customer service, ten people in engineering and so on and the type of skills they have so that other companies in our network are aware of the type of things that might be available.

I understand that. Has this been done with regard to the high-profile lay-offs?

Mr. Donal Travers

It is being done.

In IBEC's statement, it refers to the need for a strong, stable and coherent regulatory framework and an agile and workable regulatory framework is obviously important. In its statement, IBEC said that the State sometimes leads and sometimes follows. Can the witnesses from IBEC elaborate on this? In particular, could they focus on the need for greater cohesion between Departments?

Ms Una Fitzpatrick

In terms of leadership, many of the regulations being developed are being developed at European level. The Irish voice on some of those could be louder. That is the point we are making. We do well in a number of areas but it is important that we are seen and are active in this in terms of being in the group of digital front-runners in Europe. What was the second question?

It was about the need for cohesion between Departments.

Ms Una Fitzpatrick

I know there is a network of Departments that might have digital aspects, which, again, is positive. One interesting insight would be the recent Electoral Reform Act. Part 5 of that contained provisions relating to misinformation, disinformation and online behaviour. That happened through the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage but at the same time, we have the Online Safety and Media Regulation Bill, which is through the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sports and Media, and the Digital Services Act, which is through the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, and those dots have not been connected in terms of how those work together. That is a practical example of where issues can arise.

In terms of the global slowdown in the technology sector Ms Fitzpatrick said had been forecast for some time, how does Technology Ireland envisage that playing out? Will it be mainly a contraction of the recruitment spree some of the very large tech companies and online platforms underwent over the past two years or will there also be an impact on smaller indigenous companies? Ms Fitzpatrick might say it is both but where will the main impact be? What I am most interested in is the impact on small indigenous tech companies.

Ms Una Fitzpatrick

It is those who probably grew most and did best out of Covid, which is an awful thing to say, but that is really where we are seeing the impact because as the world returns to normality whatever that is, they are possibly seeing a drop off. For example, advertising during Covid very much moved to being online only and there was a huge focus on online in budgets. Obviously things have opened up and advertising budgets have normalised so you can see the impact this will have.

There will probably be less of an impact on indigenous tech companies. It is an ecosystem. They do work very closely together so what impacts larger companies will have some impact on SMEs. The industry will still be larger than pre-pandemic levels. It is just adjusting to more normal sizes for overall demand.

IBEC talks about the need for better co-ordination between Departments. I am thinking of the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. Media is in a separate Department and there is also the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Am I missing something? Are other Departments involved? The Department of Justice and the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science are probably the two other Departments involved. Having dealt with the Online Safety and Media Regulation Bill, the perspective on that is incredibly different from the enterprise perspective we might have here and obviously they need to meet to be able to function well.

Ms Una Fitzpatrick

Absolutely - Mr. O'Donovan will speak to this.

Mr. Erik O'Donovan

There are 11 Departments and 11 agencies with some sort of impact on digital. The good thing is that we have had a new national digital strategy since February and that does provide for co-ordination, which is important for IBEC and Technology Ireland. It is an issue not just in Ireland but globally. The OECD produces reports on this and also talks about the fact that because digital is so cross-cutting because it is not just the sector but our economy and society, there are a range of different actors and departments and we need to co-ordinate them. A senior officials group has been established to co-ordinate this and there is a new group called the enterprise digital advisory forum that brings stakeholders together to talk about some of these issues.

Coming back to the Senator's point about where the impact will be, a certain amount of this is within our control. If we have one message in our intervention, it would be that there is a certain amount we can control. We are competing with other jurisdictions in Europe and globally. I think our colleagues in IDA Ireland are pointing to that. It involves capacities and coherence. Ensuring those two puts us in a better place to compete globally.

My last question relates to the Digital Services Act, DSA. I know that it has been already touched on, but we saw it come into force last week, so it is new. Ms Fitzpatrick talked earlier about the resourcing issue and the increase in resources for the DPC in recent years. With the effective relocation of the regulation of the very large online platforms, that is now being moved and will be centralised at EU level. How do the witnesses see that playing out with the DPC and all the pressures the office has been under in recent years? Will this free up resources for the DPC in respect of all the other tech firms and everything that is playing out? Will it have much of a substantial impact?

Ms Una Fitzpatrick

Mr. O'Donovan and I can both take that question. In respect of the DSA and the way in which it will be implemented at an Irish level, it will be very important we do this well. As for the capacities - the question of whether this will change and the onus on the DPC - the one-stop shop principle in respect of the country-of-origin principle is still there, thankfully. The DSA has slightly changed for some of the largest platforms. That said, the digital services co-ordinator here in Ireland will still have a key role in engaging with those companies on the ground, so it may not be fully accurate to say all the regulation for those larger companies is now at European level. It will definitely be in tandem such that making sure we have a strong digital services co-ordinator role working with the European Commission is what will be important.

Mr. Erik O'Donovan

Ms Fitzpatrick has got most of it. She has nailed it. The DSA is about safety, whereas the general data protection regulation, GDPR, and the DPC are about privacy. There is an overlap. I do not see that one will take resources from the other. What we are trying to say is that there should be investment in all these elements such that they are adequately resourced to meet not only the needs of modern business but also the upholding of fundamental rights, including privacy, safety and so on.

With your indulgence, Chair, I wish to ask just one last question. With regard to the transposition of the Act in Ireland, because that is where the real activity will take place now, what is Technology Ireland's perspective on whether the legislation should go beyond the Act as it stands? Sometimes, particularly in the area of workers' rights, we see transposition in less than the full spirit of the Act. Is Technology Ireland's perspective that we need to do more, that we need to do less or that we just need to take it as is and transpose it? I am sorry. That is a very broad question, but Technology Ireland will have a perspective as to how good or bad the Act is.

Ms Una Fitzpatrick

From an industry perspective, straightforward transposition is really what we are looking for. That would be a straightforward transposition across all 27 member states. What we do not want is 27 different sets of rules. We have an example in the Online Safety and Media Regulation Bill. It is to be hoped that the Bill will work out well, but it related originally to the transposition of the audiovisual media services directive, which is now two years overdue. We are not being looked on favourably from a European perspective in respect of that transposition, and that has done reputational damage to Ireland. The last thing we would want to do, therefore, is say again that we cannot be trusted to transpose European directives.

I wish to direct some comments to the IDA. I acknowledge the contributions of Martin Shanahan and Barry O'Leary before him. My brother David was head of business development in the IDA for a couple of years. The agency's results over recent years have been terrific. I acknowledge also the Waterford development. It has been slow coming but, thankfully, we are now starting to see good developments in that regard and a new advance factory under construction there.

I wish to ask Ms Buckley a couple of questions about IDA strategy. One of them relates to the land banks the IDA may hold and the parks it holds. In Waterford, for instance, the IDA is probably selling off some of its assets. I am not quite sure what will end up happening in the older park. The IDA may have sold off some of its factories or complexes in the old Cork Road section. I would like to see some of those retained rather than going into private ownership because I think they will have a part to play in future enterprise development.

My second point is about construction costs. Does Ms Buckley feel that where construction cost inflation is going will be negative in attracting new clients?

Does she have any concerns about FDI tax contributions, which, as she will know, are now an extremely high component of our Exchequer income? I am asking about the landscape of that.

Finally, there is the integration of third level research as an attractive component. How is the IDA marketing that to foreign direct investors and multinational corporations? In Waterford, as Ms Buckley will probably know, we have three of the foremost scientific gateways in the country and they are all pivoting towards industry and industrial research areas. How is the IDA using that platform to try to attract foreign business?

Ms Mary Buckley

As the Deputy will know, we have land banks all over the country. They comprise business parks and strategic sites. We operate them on a regular basis. As for our building programme, we do not own that many buildings around the country any more, but we usually have older buildings and provide them to clients. When there is no significant interest in them, they may go on the market, but that is over a very long period because we work for IDA and Enterprise Ireland clients, so our focus is on ensuring we have property solutions in place.

Deputy Shanahan alluded to the new advance building in Waterford. I think it is one of three such facilities that have been constructed there in recent years. We are very focused on ensuring we have the right property solutions for our clients. We have been acquiring land in Waterford in very recent times. It is safe to say our property portfolio, which is significant, is constantly changing. It is working to adapt to the current and future needs of our clients. In Waterford we have an industrial estate and a business park. We always try to ensure we have the right types of buildings to meet the needs of both our clients and Enterprise Ireland clients. That is our focus.

Our clients are definitely feeling the impact of inflation. Inflation is a global issue, not just something that will impact Ireland. Without a doubt, we have to watch that, along with increased interest rates and the fact, as we said, that valuations of companies have been decreasing. There is the whole geopolitical environment as well. There is a lot going on globally, so it is really important for us to stay really close to our clients, and that is what we do. We work with our clients both here and overseas to ensure they are maintaining and growing their operations. We have to be conscious of inflation along with other headwinds.

Does Ms Buckley have any concerns about the FDI component of our tax revenue in the future? Let us say there was a change in taxation policy in the United States, which President Trump mooted in respect of repatriating overseas companies when he was in office.

Ms Mary Buckley

That has happened before with other presidents in respect of repatriating taxes etc. We have an OECD proposal now and we have agreed that we will move to a 15% tax rate. We have been engaging with our clients on that over the past 14 or 15 months. While they would always like to retain the 12.5% rate, they absolutely understand the way the environment is changing globally so they have bought into the new 15% tax rate, which, obviously, has not been implemented yet. All of that is working its way through.

The other point to make about our move to the OECD model - and I do not wish to repeat myself or to talk about this too much - is that last year we won 249 new investments. We ended up at the end of the year with 275,000 people employed in 1,700 companies.

The first half of this year has again seen strong growth and this has come on the back of the new and changing tax environment. There have been 155 investments and a commitment to 18,000 jobs. Underpinning this are 73 investments from brand-new companies without any experience of Ireland, and 73 of these have gone into regional locations as well. When we look at all this and the global tax environment and how it is changing, we are seeing clients still considering Ireland as a resilient and stable base in which to invest. For many companies, having a base in Europe is critical. They must have operations, regardless of what happens, in other parts of the globe and this makes Ireland attractive because of its strong EU membership, as well as in several other areas.

I thank Ms Buckley. Regarding the integration of the new technological universities, this model has application throughout the country in respect of these institutions contributing to industrial research. I might have a conversation with Ms Buckley in the future, one to one, in respect of the networks in Waterford, which is an area I am interested in. The hinterland there extends to other technological universities as well, but I would like to see organisations like IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland trying to do more in respect of investment and trying to show how it is possible to collaborate with industry and provide significant industrial research capacity. This is a base we need to leverage for the future.

Ms Mary Buckley

Yes, absolutely. The Deputy may be referring to the Telecommunications Software & Systems Group, or the Walton Institute as it is now, with which we are very familiar-----

There is also the South Eastern Applied Materials Research Centre at the South East Technological University, SETU.

Ms Mary Buckley

We work closely with all those organisations, regionally and nationally, in conjunction with our clients. We would certainly be happy to engage with the Deputy on all these aspects.

I thank Ms Buckley.

That concludes our business in public session. I thank the witnesses for assisting the committee in its consideration of this important matter. We will examine this issue further as soon as possible. I propose that we go into private session to consider other business. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee went into private session at 11.42 a.m. and adjourned at 11.51 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on 7 December 2022.
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