Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action debate -
Tuesday, 8 Oct 2024

The Role of Media in Climate Action: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach

I have received apologies from Deputy Paul Murphy. This morning's meeting will be held over two sessions. The purpose of the first session is to have a discussion on the role of media in climate action, particularly with respect to the impact and regulation of advertising that promotes fossil fuels. We will have a second session at 12.30 p.m., which will be a discussion on progress on the sustainable development goals. On behalf of the committee, I welcome from Irish Doctors for the Environment, Dr. Ola Nordrum and Dr. Lisa McNamee; and from RTÉ, Ms Deirdre McCarthy, Mr. Gavin Deans, Mr. Colm O'Callaghan and Mr. Troy Bannon.

Before we begin, I will read the note on privilege, which is to remind our guests of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, I will direct them to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members of the committee are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members that they are only allowed to participate in the meeting if they are physically located in the Leinster House complex. In this regard, I ask those members joining us online, which I see quite a few colleagues are, to confirm that they are on the grounds of Leinster House prior to making a contribution to the meeting.

I call Dr. Nordrum to make his opening statement, please.

Dr. Ola Nordrum

On 21 March last year, Irish Doctors for the Environment published an open letter addressed to the Irish media. We asked them to do both more and better climate storytelling. It is difficult, if not impossible, to grasp the scale and urgency of the health crisis we face as a result of climate collapse without coherent media messaging. Our letter came as a response to the IPCC climate change 2023 synthesis report. The report, published on 20 March 2023, was described as a final warning. It lasted only four hours on RTÉ's front page before having to yield to other news. There was little or no mention of the report before the release. On 21 March, everything was back to normal.

The combined climate and biodiversity crisis is an unprecedented health crisis. It is an everything crisis that is already affecting people’s health both in Ireland and around the world. Until we turn the tide on emissions, it will only get worse. A report by Doctors for the Environment Australia has found that fossil fuel pollution is already leading to more deaths globally than smoking, leading the organisation to call for a ban on all new fossil fuel projects, a ban on fossil fuel advertising and no more subsidies. The negative health effects of climate change and biodiversity breakdown are almost endless. They go far beyond respiratory disease such as asthma and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, COPD. These changes exacerbate existing disease and give rise to new disease patterns and conditions. It affects every organ in the human body. There is a duty to make this an everyday topic and not a topic discussed once in a while.

Irish media regularly promote advertising for the most polluting industries without any health warnings that these very industries will bring about climate collapse. Fossil fuel advertising should go the same way as cigarette adverts, given the impact on human health. Oil and gas companies, car manufacturers, airlines and cruise lines should all be banned from promoting their products. The well-being of people and the planet should take priority over profits.

When The Irish Times reported recently on an ESRI report on how hospital admissions in Ireland will increase due to hot weather, mainly due to cardiovascular and respiratory disease, the image used for the article was of people sunbathing. The disconnect is unbelievable. Globally, several media outlets, including The Guardian, have signed a pledge in service of the planet acknowledging that, of all the crises facing the world, the most alarming is the climate emergency and promising to relentlessly report on the crisis every day. All Irish media outlets should do the same. The Hague recently became the first city in the world to pass a law banning fossil fuel-related ads. Ireland should become the first country to do the same. This would not only be a bold step for climate action, but also a significant move for public health.

Senator Timmy Dooley

Did Dr. Nordrum say that all companies that produce cars, all airlines and so on should be banned from advertising their products?

Dr. Ola Nordrum

Yes.

Senator Timmy Dooley

I just wanted to clarify that.

An Cathaoirleach

That has been clarified. The Senator can come in shortly. I thank Dr. Nordrum for his opening statement. I call Ms McCarthy from RTÉ to deliver her opening statement.

Ms Deirdre McCarthy

I thank the Chair, Deputies and Senators for the opportunity to be with them today. As Ireland’s public service media organisation, RTÉ plays a trusted and vital role in informing our audiences about the key issues that concern all of us and in shaping national debate. Given the urgency of addressing climate change, we in RTÉ are mindful of the need to do more and to be a positive influence not just within our own industry, but also across the public sector and across Irish society as a whole. RTÉ has been working hard in recent years to increase energy efficiency in our operations, to make more sustainable programmes and to produce a rich mix of engaging and informative climate-themed programming and content across our television, radio and digital services for young and adult audiences.

RTÉ's news and current affairs department has the responsibility to tell stories accurately, clearly and impartially. Coverage of climate change is one of the key editorial priorities. We have embedded coverage across all desks and spread climate coverage and environment through every beat. This is a story that is not just told by our environment correspondent. We have the responsibility to inform and elevate public understanding and to critically assess and give context to climate science and public policy changes and how they impact on people's daily lives, whether that is in business, transport, education or other areas across the island of Ireland. We highlight pressing issues like deforestation, rising sea levels, extreme weather events and the role of corporations and governments in addressing climate change.

By keeping audiences informed about climate policies, international agreements and local environmental challenges, RTÉ ensures that the Irish public remains engaged with the ongoing climate crisis.

With so many access points nowadays and a vast amount of information available, it can be overwhelming and challenging for audiences to make sense of it all. We want to make sure our audiences can have confidence in our news gathering and our sourcing of stories and that there is no agenda behind our storytelling. Along with other public service media across Europe, RTÉ in its news gathering and content is challenging falsehoods and fake news. Audiences need to understand we report without fear or favour, even if occasionally it makes for uncomfortable reading.

RTÉ was one of the 12 broadcasters and streamers that committed to the Climate Content Pledge in 2021. The signatories, which include the BBC, Channel 4, ITV, S4C, and Sky, pledge to use their platforms to inspire and educate viewers about sustainable choices while also assisting them in understanding what addressing climate change might mean for them. For some, making the necessary changes, will be more challenging than others, and our coverage will reflect their lived experience.

We try to ensure that the topic is explored through a wide range of prisms including arts, lifestyle, natural life documentary, animation and debate. From routine inclusion in top rating programmes such as "Today with Claire Byrne", "Drivetime", "Countrywide", "Nationwide" and "Ear to the Ground", to specialist series such "Hot Mess", "Heated" and "Rising Tide", we try to make the issue relevant, exploring how Ireland specifically is likely to be affected and how individuals and community life stands to be impacted by the consequences of climate change.

Many of these programmes are aired in peak time slots to ensure that we contribute to the greatest awareness possible. Climate-themed content of all kinds is curated on the RTÉ Player and on the RTÉ website, which includes articles from many of Ireland’s leading sustainability experts and academics. Uniquely, the website provides a daily snapshot of Ireland’s use of renewable and fossil fuels, and places this in the context of historical performance and future targets.

We note that the committee has an interest in discussing advertising in the context of climate, and my colleagues Gavin Deans, director of commercial and Conor Mullen, head of commercial compliance, will be happy to address any questions that members have. As with all RTÉ content there are rigorous standards of editorial independence and full compliance with detailed commercial codes.

As an organisation, we are committed to playing our part in carbon-emission reduction. One of the five explicit goals within our recently published strategy A New Direction, is to ensure that RTÉ becomes a more trusted and sustainable organisation. In 2023 we published our own climate action plan and our implementation of this continues to be monitored by NewERA. Sustainability considerations have helped inform decisions on capital expenditure priorities, including operating to a reduced footprint on the Donnybrook site over the lifetime of the strategy.

RTÉ was the first broadcaster in Ireland to pilot the use of albert certification - a bespoke environmental standard for the television sector. The albert certification programme was adapted for usage in Ireland in 2019 by a Screen Greening alliance created by, RTÉ, Virgin Media Television, TG4 Screen Ireland, Screen Producers Ireland and the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland. We estimate that more than 500 RTÉ programmes will be created to that standard this year. The management of the albert carbon calculator is currently in the process of being transferred to Coimisiún na Meán from BAFTA, and, through the coimisiún’s sustainability network, we will continue to work collaboratively with the rest of the sector to innovate and create more sustainable ways of working.

Given the scale and urgency of the challenges facing us, it is incumbent on us all to do more. We remain committed to making decisions which align with national and organisational sustainability ambitions and our public service remit. We look forward to discussing this topic with the committee and are happy to take any questions.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms McCarthy. I am somewhat uncomfortable with the lack of attention to advertising in her statement. There was one mention of it. I understand Mr. O'Callaghan will answer in respect of advertising, but I would have thought that her statement would really focus on the challenge relating to advertising and climate.

As politicians, we regularly go on national media, including RTÉ, and are interrogated about climate policy. We pull and drag against each other in many ways and there are many differences over policy but then it would cut to the ad break. We are there listening and the ad break is advertising bigger cars that are inefficient and other fossil fuel products. It seems that advertising is influencing consumer behaviour. More than €1 billion is spent on advertising in Ireland every year because it works. It is not quite enough to say that RTE adheres to all of the standards that are in place. We are trying to find out and the reason we have invited RTÉ back is we had a session two years ago that was not satisfactory because it did not deal with advertising sufficiently. The wrong people were sent in. This time we explicitly asked for the discussion to be about advertising and this is what we wanted to deal with. It seems from Ms McCarthy's opening statement that she has barely touched on it. It is the primary focus of this meeting. I ask if she would like to respond to that and to acknowledge that this is a huge challenge, which we are trying to address. We would like to know what RTÉ's way of addressing that is?

Ms Deirdre McCarthy

I would like to point out first to the Chair that RTÉ is a commercial semi-state body and we are dual funded. There is the licence fee and there is the commercial side of the house. We are a large organisation with many parts. There is the editorial side of the house and both Mr. Deans and Mr. Mullen are here to speak from the commercial perspective. If the committee wants to get straight into the advertising-----

An Cathaoirleach

I should acknowledge the great work done in RTÉ with respect to programming and treating climate generally. Fantastic work has been done but if we are not looking at the advertising piece and how consumer behaviour is affected, we are really missing a trick. I would like to get into it and it is supposed to be the primary focus of this meeting. I invite Mr. Deans to speak now, please.

Mr. Gavin Deans

We are here today to answer any of those questions. We have the detail and when we look back over two years ago, it was not around then but looking at the detail, people are now been able to answer those questions.

My colleague Mr. Mullen looks after compliance. From an RTÉ point of view, compliance is much more of a huge effort from ourselves to ensure what we do around sponsorship. There are committees that include all areas of the business to look at the type of sponsorship we take on particular shows. We can go into that. When we look at the numbers around advertising in general, and, as the Cathaoirleach said, it is a big part, we have to play within the commercial role of the overall organisation to fund RTÉ so we have to maximise everything we can do on that.

The policies the Government has set over the past number of years has also changed the type of advertiser that has advertised. In 2019, motors accounted for approximately 10% of revenue. That has dropped down to 6% of our total revenue. According to the most recent car registrations that came out in January, and again halfway through the year, and if we look at June until the start of September, just over 50% of all car advertising was all to do with fully electric or hybrid vehicles. More than 80% of that advertising completely covered off all of the motor advertising so the motor companies are driving that message because that is what is working for them from a consumer and market point of view. They changed that.

Likewise, we look at other advertisers, whether they are sponsors or different advertisers, for example, energy companies not advertising in the way they used to. They are advertising retrofitting, wind, electric and all of those elements. We have seen a huge shift in the actual advertising itself and the models. We looked across all of the advertising from even a sponsorship point of view and more than 70% of the sponsorship that is attributed to that is all environmentally focused. The clients have changed that.

I sit in a number of meetings with different clients and their focus is on this agenda, not on diesel or petrol. They are trying to shift for their own business reasons and for environmental reasons. We are working with them to make sure we are not greenwashing, which is a very hard thing to prove. When we get into a sponsorship deal, we do not allow a sponsor to come into a show that does not fit. There is a body within RTÉ that does this. I do not sit on this body. The way in which we do that is to make sure we are doing the right advertising to the right market and to try to drive that.

An Cathaoirleach

I will hone in on the responsibility of RTÉ as a commercial semi-State body. Is Mr. Deans saying that to some degree RTÉ's hands are tied and that it has to maximise the revenue it would get? RTÉ needs to be funded and that is a live debate at the moment. What discretion does Mr. Deans have and what protocols are in place to give him, as commercial director, the discretion to decide what is and is not appropriate?

Mr. Gavin Deans

As I said, we have compliance. Mr. Mullen heads our compliance department. He sits in on different committees such as those in the area of sponsorship, which includes all areas of the business, to make sure it sets our standards and hits the standards that we are able to do.

Mr. Conor Mullen

We go through a rigorous clearance process regarding any advertisement that is broadcast across the RTÉ channels. Any claim that is made has to be substantiated. If it is not, it is either withdrawn or changed or the client may withdraw its advertisement because we will not accept it. We adhere to all the rules, regulations and legislation within the State. We adhere to all the rules and regulations set out by Coimisiún na Meán and by the Advertising Standards Authority, ASA. They are really clear that any kind of sustainability claim has to take into account the life cycle of a product. We have a very high bar in that regard.

An Cathaoirleach

I accept that but can RTÉ go beyond the rules? Can RTÉ take a position or is it mandated to maximise the revenue from advertising within the bounds of the rules?

Mr. Conor Mullen

Under the Broadcasting Act, we are obligated to maximise our commercial income to subsidise the cost of our public-service objects. To make a decision like that may not prove well because, as Mr. Deans and the Cathaoirleach have said in terms of advertising works, businesses and the market are changing. People also want to communicate how they are changing along with that. It is important for them to inform people that they are changing, that is, that a business, an industry or a category is changing in that regard. It is a necessary port in terms of being able to deliver that message.

An Cathaoirleach

As a commercial semi-State entity, RTÉ is somewhat prevented from going further than the rules as they are set down. Is that correct?

Mr. Conor Mullen

It is not up to us to set the rules and the policies. It is clear in the Broadcasting Act that our regulator controls that and that is what we adhere to.

Senator Timmy Dooley

I have a couple of remarks to make more so than questions. Since RTÉ was before the committee last to discuss this issue, I have seen a marked change in the level of programming and content related to climate and climate action and the necessity for same. I watch programmes on TV and listen to radio programmes with interest when I am in my car. The programming is targeted in the right way. RTÉ is focusing on bringing people on a journey. It is telling the story of climate change and explaining the implications. I think this strategy is working because more and more people are talking about it.

I get the point that Dr. Nordrum makes but it is a very absolutist position. That may be helpful in a society because it creates a counter balance. It forces all of us to think but I also meet people on a daily basis and I am probably meeting them a bit more regularly at the moment as I am tormenting them in the evening when they are settling in for their dinner when I am canvassing. I am very clear that people have a concern about what is often referred to now as "You over there, the elite". Members of the media and politicians are put in a space by people that is not always in their space.

Some people are consuming information from the Internet, including YouTube, or wherever, but there is a great deal of disinformation there. If we are not careful in how we bring people along on this journey, we will lose many of them. If it were to start being said that the Government and RTÉ were in cahoots to remove cars, foreign travel and holidays from the advertising agenda, it would have a counterproductive impact. The witnesses are telling the truth about climate change and they are doing it in an open and direct way, although I am sure it annoys some people who would prefer it if the witnesses did not focus so much on it. When we start getting into prohibiting or removing information, though, it becomes a different space. It puts it back on us, actually. If we decided to ban the advertising of cars, holidays and flights altogether and see where it took us, I do not believe society would carry that terribly well.

We have to be balanced and proportionate in our response. As a broadcaster, RTÉ has to map that in a way that is proportionate, responsible and directional and seeks to bring citizens on that journey.

Dr. Ola Nordrum

I thank the Senator for his comments. I come at this from a medical and scientific point of view, so I am trying to relay the science at this meeting. Globally, the most important risk factor for death is hypertension, that is, high blood pressure. The second most important is air pollution. It is even ahead of smoking, and we can all agree that the ban on advertising cigarettes has been very successful. The data presented to me as a doctor is that air pollution is the second greatest risk factor for death globally at 8.1 million deaths per year. In Ireland, that figure is approximately 1,600. Those are just the deaths, though. If we include related diseases and other comorbidities, the number multiplies almost endlessly.

I appreciate the Senator’s comments about it being an extreme proposition, but it is what I see from the science. From the point of view of a medical opinion-----

Senator Timmy Dooley

I get that completely. My comments are not in any way meant to be derogatory or overly critical. It is just that we on this side of the table have to balance issues. I am sure the broadcasters have to do so as well. This is a question of how to bring people with us. We banned smoking in offices, entertainment venues and so on to protect the health of the workers. People still smoke, drink, take drugs, do things that are injurious to their health and die. We will all die. What we have to do in a measured way is try to ensure that, in our response to the climate crisis, we bring people along with us on the journey. I have been in the Oireachtas for quite some time and have generally seen a major shift in the attitudes of politicians to climate change. At one stage, it was still acceptable to reflect on a bygone era and there was electoral support for that, but when we meet younger voters now, it is clear that they get it. Indeed, they get it in a different way than I might have as a child growing up.

We are getting there and the Government has committed to significant 2030 and 2050 climate targets, in which transportation will play a significant part. Considerable investment is being made in public transport. When I sat on the Opposition benches, I managed to convince my party to sign up to a carbon tax. Politically, that was probably not the smartest thing for an Opposition that was trying to win an election to do, but we did it anyway. People get the issue now. There are still some political parties that suggest we should not have a carbon tax. As the witnesses know, that tax was introduced with a gradual increase over time in mind, so it made a clear statement to people who purchased cars that were heavier and used larger amounts of fossil fuels that they would be paying more over time regardless of what the international markets said about the price of fuel.

Deputy Bruton would have experienced from his perspective in government at the time. We have come a long way but we have a big journey. The work across the media generally, not just in RTÉ but in print, other broadcast media and even at local radio level is welcome but it is proportionate and step-phased. We should encourage that and I am also conscious that we have to fund it. We have made some changes in that regard but there is still a long way to go. It does not generate huge amount of investment, unfortunately.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Senator Dooley. I am reading the submission from Purpose Disruptors, which was before the committee previously. It pointed out that UN Secretary General António Guterres said this year, "I urge every country to ban advertising from fossil fuel companies". Dr. Nordrum's position is quite consistent with that of the Secretary General of the United Nations.

Dr. Lisa McNamee

I respect that the medical opinion may not be palatable to a general audience in some cases but I appreciate the discussion of it. Politically, it is always difficult to try to find that balance but as medics we have a duty to advocate for patients. On a global scale, we are facing an unprecedented health crisis. People still smoke but the ban on advertising cigarettes and, previous to that, health warnings has meant that those numbers diminished drastically because of those policies. Ireland was a global forerunner in that battle. We went further than most countries at a time when it was politically distasteful. That was a brave decision. We can make similar decisions around health warnings or progress in advertising.

Deputy Richard Bruton

I thank the witnesses for the presentations. This is one of the greatest collective challenges we face as a nation. I am interested to hear what RTÉ has learned from its leveraging its responsibility to inform, entertain and educate in this area. It is making a difference. What has RTÉ learned from that process? Does it track social media and the responses to what it puts up?

There is no doubt but that part of a populist political critique at the moment is resistance to the change required to respond to the climate challenge. In every country in which there is a populist regime or growing populism, this is attacked as part of identity politics and grievance politics. How does RTÉ look at balancing debate around these things? If it is presenting something on the need to respond and create a pathway by which people can understand and see what action they can take, does RTÉ feel an obligation to have people on who offer the opposite view in terms of balance? I can sympathise with what has been said about advertising. What is the limit of RTÉ's sense of obligation to be compliant within its mandate to inform, educate and entertain? Are there ads that RTÉ is consistently blocking? Is there an in and an out or does it look to other sources such as advertising standards or Government legislation to decide where those lines should be drawn?

In persuading people to come on board with a transformation agenda, the notion of circularity is much more understandable. We all grew up with the idea that you use material carefully, you did not throw things away if they could be repaired and you husbanded resources.

This idea of looking all along your supply chain and trying to identify what is doing the environmental damage is more intuitively understood by people than saying we are the worse in terms of emissions or some measure that does not mean much to people's lives. Has RTÉ considered looking at some of the themes around circularity such as how we build, repair, restore, looking at fast fashion, and obviously at these patterns of rapid throwaway that have developed in our more consumerist world? Does it see that as part of its mandate in bringing a focus to bear on these challenges?

Mr. Colm O'Callaghan

I will deal with Deputy Bruton's question on the editorial side and I will allow Mr. Deans and Mr. Mullen to talk about the commercial aspects.

The question is very timely. We begin a second series of a magazine show called "Heated" on Thursday night on RTÉ 1 at 7 p.m. It is very prominent in the RTÉ 1 schedule and deals with that circularity, the circle economy, restoration, refitting, keeping goods in circulation and innovation. This is a magazine series, which is pretty much widely family demographic based, playing very deliberately off the back of the "Six One" news, but it is just one of a number of offerings and a number of ways we are dealing with what can often be a very dense and abstract concept for people to get their heads around. We are consistently tracking audience sentiment, probably no more so than the committee members themselves. We are in a general election cycle. We know what is occupying people's minds. It can be very difficult in a cost-of-living, health or housing crisis to actually penetrate with something as abstract as a climate crisis. That said, there are floods in Bantry and Waterford and suddenly it is back in the news cycle and back as a live agenda. Just because something is not driving a news cycle at a particular point in time is not a good enough reason not to cover something.

Regarding the coverage we do editorially, we go wide and we go far in as much as we can, restrained, of course, by the fact that we are not a natural history or a climate channel. We are a mixed genre channel but in terms of our output we have certainly increased our hourage exponentially over the past ten years. We do that through everything from cláracha Gaeilge to young people's programmes to what we do ourselves in the factual area. To split out the factual area, we can go with something very dense and policy-led such as the Philip Boucher-Hayes series earlier on this year on rising tides, we can go with the circular economy piece on Thursday night on RTÉ 1, or we can continue to do stories regularly on "Ear to the Ground" that looks at rural affairs. This series has consistently, even though it is a strand that deals with rural Ireland ostensibly, that is, rural areas, agriculture and its future, it has not been shy in dealing with climate, sustainability and conservation over the past 15 years. To give particular credit to Ella McSweeney, she has driven that. We go wide and we go far. What experience has taught us is that it can be difficult to get right. There can be a lot of audience resistance to it but we are a public service broadcaster and that is not a good enough reason not to do something. We are wholly committed to it and we will continue to make that commitment.

Ms Deirdre McCarthy

I will add in there that we have just finished research with the audiences and focus groups in the last month, very specifically on climate change. From a news and current affairs perspective we track and record our climate change coverage stories. We have done so for the last year and a half. We know exactly what we are doing, what areas we are covering and where the challenges are from the audience perspective. However, the most recent research indicates it is a huge challenge. There is a huge amount of ambivalence in the audience towards the climate crisis and climate change - their role in it and whose role and responsibility it is - and there is also a huge amount of resistance to it insofar as they do not care, it is nothing to do with them and it is somebody else's problem.

We recognise that. That is still a major challenge for public sector media companies. We might ask what we can do to try to take a different approach to the way we tell the stories on climate change. It is a balance because, first of all, what we are there to do is report impartial, accurate news. However, there is also a need to try to explain the climate change story. What the audience tells us is guiding us in how we are trying to tell those stories and connect them to the audience. What digital has done is disrupt everything, including how we connect to younger audiences and newer audiences in particular. There is a big question around trust and verifying the sourcing and the verification of stories. People ask why they should trust us and why they should trust mainstream media. What we must try to achieve in all this is to reach those younger audiences and convince them that they should trust us and show them how we verify and how it is so-----

An Cathaoirleach

I am mindful of time. As I said, the main focus of the meeting is advertising rather than the content and programming. Most would acknowledge the work RTÉ does in that area.

Ms Deirdre McCarthy

The Chair asked a question about balance and false equivalence. We use an evidence-based approach. The climate science is very clear. It is not a question that just because people hear from one side, they have to automatically hear from the other. That is just to answer that question.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Bruton had a question on the advertising.

Mr. Gavin Deans

We have the highest standard of compliance. We interpret the rules very stringently. We look at every bit of advertising that comes in. There is nothing that does not go through our compliance department. We monitor every bit of advertising that comes in and we follow the rules. We look at all of it in the context of what Coimisiún na Meán to the Advertising Standards Authority, ASA, require and, literally, everything in our internal codes. We do have clashes. We purposely monitor what we do. We do not go beyond what we think we should be doing, certainly from a sponsorship point of view.

Mr. Conor Mullen

The advertising market is highly competitive. We are constantly being challenged on being flexible in terms of use. However, we hold steadfast to the guidelines and rules and regulations. It is timely to have this discussion. We are in consultation with Coimisiún na Meán regarding draft codes. It is appropriate in terms of having this discussion. It is clearly set out that our regulator keeps its eye on us, but we also hold ourselves to a high standard.

Mr. Gavin Deans

When we get into looking at those categories, as I said, a huge amount of motor advertising relates to electric and hybrid vehicles, but this is falling as a category on the whole. It has dropped by 40%. Airline advertising this year has dropped by 65% in our-----

An Cathaoirleach

I will take the electric vehicle example Mr. Deans highlighted.

Mr. Gavin Deans

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

An electric Range Rover is not a very efficient machine. It is quite carbon intensive if we look at the primary energy that is used to make it in the first instance and the primary energy relating to the grid as well. Although it might be an electric vehicle, that should not really be acceptable if we are seeing it being advertised as such.

Mr. Gavin Deans

The vast majority of our advertising does not relate to Range Rovers.

An Cathaoirleach

Sure.

Mr. Gavin Deans

I do not want to get into discussing particular brands, but-----

An Cathaoirleach

We have had many sessions in this room on the challenge of transport emissions. We know that the trend of the past 15 years across Europe is towards-----

Mr. Gavin Deans

SUVs.

An Cathaoirleach

-----SUVs and bigger, heavier vehicles. Even if they are electric, there is still a climate impact. It is not good enough to say that because they are electric vehicles, they are good. There has to be a more nuanced understanding in that regard.

Mr. Gavin Deans

Again, within the policy we try to work with, what I am saying is that the advertising spend from that category has dropped significantly in the past few years. If we look at airlines, it has dropped this year by 65% across RTÉ. Much of that advertising has gone online direct to purchase. It has gone to other providers. That reflects market conditions based on policy and in terms of what we do. Our rates are expensive. We are not cheap, as such. We hold people to a higher standard than other media because of this. That is not just because we are RTÉ; it is because this is what we want to do.

Mr. Conor Mullen

It is the right thing to do and we are regulated. Coimisiún na Meán is coming in to regulate the regulation of online video. Heretofore there has been limited, if any, regulation of where the money is going. I will defend to the nth what our team does. It holds the highest regard in terms of the rules and regulations. It does not bend though there is pressure to do so.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Unfortunately, as I was at another meeting, I missed the start of this one. I may repeat some of the questions judging by the conversation. I note at the outset that there has been a significant increase in the content produced by RTÉ on nature, diversity and climate. That is very welcome. The standard of these programmes is incredible. What I find is that there are two faces of RTÉ, namely, the face of "Rising Tides" and such programmes and then the face of advertising. I understand that a considerable portion of the organisation’s revenue comes from advertising and it will be a challenge to address that.

I have a couple of questions. Our witnesses have done the numbers of RTÉ productions using the calculator by year. Is there a similar calculation being done of the number of ads for fossil fuel products?

Mr. Gavin Deans

We track them.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Everything is tracked. Does Mr. Deans have those figures?

Mr. Gavin Deans

Approximately 6% of our total advertising revenue is from motor advertising. Travel and transport accounts for 4% of ad revenue and airlines account for 0.2%. Gas suppliers and energy account for 2.8%. But within that, I refer to what we said at the start, albeit to the account of the Range Rover being more energy intense to make, in terms of a huge proportion of that shift. This is why I was talking about policy and the shift. We work across a wide range of brands. We work with advertisers on the message they want to get out. That change has been considerably influenced by environmental concerns. Even if the brand concerned is not a motor brand, they know the environment is important to their customer. They understand what they need to do. They are looking to see how they can aid us to try to change what they are. We cannot let anyone greenwash. From a compliance point of view we make sure that what they say and what they do is correct. Advertisers ask us to fill out questionnaires concerning our environmental impact. We are obliged to supply them with numbers because they are signing up to Irish, European or global initiatives within their own businesses. It is a multifaceted system. We have to attract commercial revenue for the reasons outlined by the Deputy but we also have to be fair in the things we do across different brands. We track an awful lot. We track the different types of advertising various brands do.

In terms of sponsorship revenue, 68% of that is related to electric-hybrid or retrofitting or solar or different things. The brands have already moved in that direction and that is where we see growth, rather than necessarily in what we are discussing.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

That is interesting. In terms of RTÉ’s ad revenue, a figure of approximately 10% - and dropping - is from fossil fuel.

Mr. Gavin Deans

As I said, 6% of our revenue is from motor advertising. Travel accounts for another 4%, airlines 0.2% and gas and electricity suppliers approximately 2.8%. It is approximately 11% altogether.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

It is approximately 10% of the organisation’s revenue. Has RTÉ ever had conversations about whether as a public service broadcaster – I understand it proudly follows the quite stringent regulations and codes of Coimisiún na Meán – there is an opportunity for it to go above and beyond what those regulations are? We have never really been very strong on regulations, although we are getting better. Does Mr. Deans believe there is a responsibility on RTÉ as a public service broadcaster to go above and beyond those regulations and say it is not going to advertise this subject any more? In reality, 10% is not a large-----

Mr. Gavin Deans

It is a significant amount of revenue to us and to RTÉ. In any conversation around that, the question is what would be the replacement for that revenue.

Some 10%, certainly for everything we have gone through, is a huge amount so I would not underplay what it means to make programming. Our revenue goes back into making a lot of the programme we are talking about. Regarding standards from a commercial perspective, I am only in RTÉ eight months but RTÉ holds itself to a much higher standard. Airline advertising is not disappearing; it is just sometimes going somewhere else.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Apologies for speaking over Mr. Deans. From the editorial and content side, if RTÉ has a show dealing with climate and the environment into which a lot of effort has been put, and during which fossil fuel ads are shown, does it feel that undermines its message? Has a decision been made not to show fossil fuel-type ads during these programmes? Have there been conversations about when to show them and when not to show them in respect of what content is being shown at the time?

Mr. Gavin Deans

There are conversations around certain shows that are sensitive to certain issues across RTÉ. There is absolutely engagement on that across the different areas.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Would RTÉ judge what ads to put on then? I imagine in some instances where there is a show on a very sensitive subject there would not be ads related to that subject. Would those same conversations occur on climate and nature programmes?

Mr. Gavin Deans

If the show was in that particular way, yes, but not on all programmes.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

RTÉ tends not to show fossil fuel ads during those programmes.

Mr. Gavin Deans

I would not like to say without having the full data here but we would be very conscious of that.

Mr. Conor Mullen

It is important that we keep a separation between editorial and commercial. There is an obligation from Coimisiún na Meán that we deliver commercial communications across all broadcasts in an appropriate manner in terms of timing, the subject matter and instances like that. We must also operate at an arm's length separation. It is a delicate balance in that regard. We have our own fair trading policy that outlines how we operate in that way.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Returning to the question on content, do the witnesses feel that the message is sometimes undermined by the commercial showing of ads at the same time as climate programmes? It is probably a difficult question to answer.

Mr. Colm O'Callaghan

Yes and no. A pull and drag has existed between the commercial and editorial arm for as long as RTÉ television has been on air and that was New Year's Eve in 1961. There will always be tension between programme makers and journalists. In an ideal world, we might all have our opinions on how public media is funded and RTÉ is funded in a particular way. Were it not for the revenues brought in by Mr. Dean's and Mr. Mullen's team, we may not be in a position to make a lot of the output that the committee this morning has been so complimentary of this morning. It is a compromise that is sometimes uneasy. On whether I feel the content is compromised in any way by some of the advertising, we do as much as we can to keep it nice and passive. The content speaks for itself.

Ms Deirdre McCarthy

From a news and current affairs perspective, it is our duty and responsibility to be accurate, impartial and objective in our approach as well. We are also guided by that on the editorial side of the house.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the witnesses and Deputy Whitmore. If those from Irish Doctors for the Environment want to come in on any of the questions, even if they are directed to RTÉ, they should feel free to indicate and vice versa. If RTÉ wants to come in on a question that is directed to Irish Doctors for the Environment, witnesses may raise their hands and I will bring them in.

We have about a half hour left in the session. I have three colleagues indicating to come in, so we will try to keep to ten minutes each and that includes the answers from our guests as well.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I thank the witnesses for coming in today. To reiterate, we were disappointed with the response from RTÉ when it came before us two years ago. This is why we have decided to bring the witnesses back today. We had a list we could have chosen from but we specifically wanted RTÉ to come in and answer questions on advertising. Given Mr. Deans's and Mr. Mullen's responses to the earlier questions, they were at pains to explain how the advertisers themselves want to explain to the general public that they are sustainable.

Does RTÉ think it is here to speak for the commercial interests of those adverting on RTÉ? I do not. I think this is about RTÉ and not who is advertising.

Mr. Conor Mullen

Absolutely, but what is happening with our revenues is a bit complex. One of the questions was about categories.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

It was repeated a number of times. I wanted to point that out.

Mr. Mullen mentioned that RTÉ is in conversation with Coimisiún na Meán at the moment. I have not heard anything today to suggest RTÉ believes there should be more stringent regulations on itself regarding advertising fossil fuel products. Is RTÉ in discussions with Coimisiún na Meán about fossil fuel advertising in respect of climate?

Mr. Conor Mullen

The consultation is in two stages. The first stage relates to the transposition of the audiovisual media services directive, AVMSD, into the new codes and that closed last week. The second stage goes into more specific categories, including sustainability, and will close at the end of November, so we will be drafting responses and submitting them by then.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

Will RTÉ be looking for further, more stringent regulations around fossil fuel advertising?

Mr. Conor Mullen

We have not drafted anything at this moment.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

Or will it be the reverse, that RTÉ wants the regulations to stay the same in order that the fossil fuel industry can continue to advertise as it does?

Mr. Conor Mullen

It is important to get clarity on how codes and laws are interpreted. Going into a black-and-white scenario gets us into an absolutist position and that can be difficult. It is important we have a consultation and that stakeholders have their say; not only RTÉ but all broadcasters should be involved. That stage is just kicking off.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

Absolutely, as Mr. Mullen stated and I recognise, RTÉ has obligations under companies legislation. It is a partly commercial entity. My experience from any engagement is that people will try to put their best foot forward to ensure they get the maximum amount of revenue possible. What I am trying to get clarity on is whether RTÉ will do that when it comes to fossil fuel advertising or will it follow the international advice that we need to reduce the amount of fossil fuel advertising, not only on State media, but also on commercial media. Will RTÉ stay away from that?

Mr. Conor Mullen

Our primary purpose is to ensure that all advertisements are legal, decent, truthful and honest. Policies, laws and regulations are not set by us and our role and remit is clearly set out in the Broadcasting Act. That is why it is important that Coimisiún na Meán has an input into this. Under the Broadcasting Act, we are also obligated to maximise our revenues. It is a balance.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

Mr. Mullen is not saying that RTÉ will look for tighter regulations around fossil fuel advertising. He does not know one way or the other.

Mr. Conor Mullen

I am not saying either because we have not approached it yet. There is a timeline for doing that and we will submit a response.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

It is interesting when Mr. Mullen speaks about the reducing revenue RTÉ is getting from fossil fuel intensive industries. Notwithstanding that electric vehicles are lighter on the environment, when they become heavier, that creates other problems.

My concern is that I am not receiving a straight answer and given RTÉ's revenues are reducing - it is almost a starvation scenario for it at the moment - and that RTÉ has quite clearly set out that it is a commercial entity that wants to maximise the amount of revenue it gets in, I wonder what lengths RTÉ will go to in order to hold on to fossil fuel advertising. Mr. Mullen is not giving me much clarity on it.

Mr. Conor Mullen

To be clear, I have not given the Senator an answer because RTÉ has not drafted one yet.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

Does RTÉ want to come back in to the committee before it does so, or while it is doing it?

Mr. Conor Mullen

We will, if that is what the committee wishes. The submission will be in the public domain, when we make it.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I thank Mr. Mullen.

I will go back to a point Dr. Nordrum made in his opening statement, which is that the IPCC 2023 synthesis report stayed up on the RTÉ website for four hours.

We have not had a response from RTÉ regarding the decision-making that goes into how long climate stories remain up. You can tick a box and say here are the things that have been done and that this came out today and has been put up on the website. Ms McCarthy's has been very clear - I do not want to put words into here mouth - that one of the challenges RTÉ faces may be a lack of interest on the part of the public. How much does that determine how long RTÉ keeps these stories on its website?

Ms Deirdre McCarthy

I did not mean the specific story that we are talking about. New stories go up as they come in. Every day, the determination of how long they stay up on the app depends on the news-gathering operation, how many stories there are and on whether there are developments or updates in particular stories, whether something has just broken or emerged or whether there is a new line of information. Stories are placed as they come in and as they move down. Sometimes stories are well read because there is huge interest in them. That can often trigger us to write a second piece or do a deep dive on a particular story or explainer. It depends. In that instance, that is a new story.

In response to the Senator's point about audiences, we are well aware from the audiences as well that a lot of what they read about climate change, or they see or hear, they find very negative. They find the news in relation to climate change very negative. That is the challenge for us. It involves how we tell some of our stories in respect of climate change in a way that can offer a more solutions-based or positive approach in the context of the journalism and the storytelling in that. In reply to that specific question, it is a new story like any other new story.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I am trying to figure out, because I am not a media expert, if there is an algorithm. Does the number of people who read really determine it? Should something else be put in there to say that something is a priority, that we know the health impacts of it and that, therefore, we will add this information to our algorithm to keep it in the news? It is a chicken-and-egg situation. If people do not see that something is valued by the media as an important story, it is like for all of our peers. If it is not part of the conversation when you go to have a cup of coffee, then you do not think it is important. There is an obligation. This is what public service broadcasting is about. It is about continuing the conversation. I reiterate, however, that the programming is excellent. I am not disputing that but these are new stories and they look like they are being treated like other stories. I am unclear as to how RTÉ makes those determinations.

Ms Deirdre McCarthy

It depends on the story. Each new story is different - when it happened and how it happens. In relation to climate change-----

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

Is an individual making the decision or is it an algorithm?

Ms Deirdre McCarthy

These decisions about stories are made by editors who work in the newsroom. They make their decisions on the basis of the prominence and importance of a story, the public interest element involved, what we can and cannot stand up in relation to a story in the context of verification and whether more investigation will be required. There are many factors every single day with every story. However, we do watch because we know from the dashboards what people are interested in. Also, we can deal with 30 to 50 stories every day. Many of those are domestic; a large number are international.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator O'Reilly's question is a good one. Is RTÉ chasing popularity rather than what is important?

Ms Deirdre McCarthy

Our job is not to chase popularity.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

With respect, we are still not getting a massive amount of clarity as to what the balance is regarding how much time something spends on the public broadcaster's various platforms. It is an editor's decision, but where is the public interest in how the editor makes the decision?

Ms Deirdre McCarthy

The prominence of a story and the decision as to whether to run a new story or not on the 6 o'clock news, on the news app or whichever platform form the basis of the decisions made every day by the editors in the newsroom. There are several factors when it comes to determining what a news story is but, as stated earlier, in news and current affairs, we have prioritised the coverage of climate change.

It is not just George Lee's beat. It is across many desks and platforms that there is prominence or consideration given every single day to whether there is a climate change aspect or question to the story.

Mr. Colm O'Callaghan

I want to comment about matters outside of news.

An Cathaoirleach

Briefly, because I want to let colleagues in and we have only 20 minutes left.

Mr. Colm O'Callaghan

Outside of news and on factual programming, we play this stuff very prominently. It plays at 6.30 p.m. on a Sunday, 9.30 p.m. on a Monday and 9.30 p.m. on a Wednesday. We could be playing acquired drama in there or playing stuff that is a lot more populist.

Deputy Pauline Tully

I appreciate that. For clarity, I am not saying RTÉ is populist. I am just trying to get at the nub of how RTÉ makes its decisions.

Mr. Colm O'Callaghan

It is just more eolas.

An Cathaoirleach

I must move on to be fair to colleagues. I hope RTÉ in the remaining 20 minutes will address the point made by the delegation from the Irish Doctors for the Environment that the very important story only lasted four hours on the front page and there seems to have been no reporting before and after on the same issue.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

That is a good example so I will dwell one minute longer on the IPCC report. I was a little concerned when Ms McCarthy mentioned that people prefer "positive" stories and "solution-based" stories. That may be very true in some of the programming pieces but when it comes to the news the fact is there is very serious news. We get breaking news about wars that are happening around the world all the time but there is breaking and ongoing news about the climate. It is a crisis story; it is not an academic story. The IPCC report literally has everything is in it. All human life is there. If you care about health, it is there. If your care about child endangerment, it is there. If you care about biodiversity, farming or the sea, it is there. All of these things are in an IPCC report. There are multiple stories in an IPCC report. So when RTÉ simply has a report that there was a report then it strikes me that it does not seem that editorially there is an attempt to dive in. Maybe that is partly, as mentioned, because it is pretty hard news. The contents of an IPCC report make for a tough story. I was struck by mention that RTÉ might do a deep dive. The IPCC report is the deep dive so it strikes me as the kind of report that has five or six stories that are specifically of great interest to different constituencies within our country. Maybe it is just an example where a different editorial approach can be taken, which is somewhat different from something like programming. I am thinking of many stories where we get updates all the time with very little change and yet, with the IPCC report, there is a huge body of important breaking information in such a short period.

The delegation from Irish Doctors for the Environment has given a really good example and I have some questions for them. Dr. Nordrum spoke about the coverage piece and then the advertising piece. Am I right to believe that you are saying that there needs to be a similar approach to the one we have taken to combatting alcohol, gambling and the use of tobacco products? This is a pertinent time to raise this issue because Coimisiún na Meán is looking at its regulations, as was mentioned, and there is other legislation. Deputy Paul Murphy was unable to be here today and I believe he has put forward legislation that tackles this issue. From the perspective of the Irish Doctors for the Environment, is this an area that needs not just regulation but also prohibition in respect of certain forms of advertising?

My next question is for both delegations. The climate impacts do not just concern content. So it is not just around the fact that RTÉ advertises SUVs and fossil fuels but the question of how advertising is done. There is the area of certain kinds of content where prohibition may be required in terms of fossil fuel advertising. There is also the argument, possibly as the regulator looks to what he or she is going to be doing, for much stronger regulation on how advertising is made and that is something I would appreciate from RTÉ as well. I know the RTÉ delegation has spoken about the albert certification code. That is now getting transferred over to Coimisiún na Meán but I understand that that is around the mechanics of advertising.

As well as the question of the content of advertising it is about the mechanics of advertising and the choices made around how things are advertised, including on digital platforms and RTÉ's digital platforms. In the context of that code, I would like to know if this is being applied just to RTÉ's programme making or is the Albert code being considered in relation to advertising and the kind of advertising options available within RTÉ's digital platform as well as broadcast? We now know that the area of artificial intelligence, AI, is intensifying the carbon impact of advertising as an industry in terms of the how of advertising, as they say. Content is one issue and the mechanism is another. Perhaps the witnesses will comment a bit on the mechanisms in relation to advertising and the need, potentially, for regulation there. I am conscious that I will get in to engage only once again. I too am concerned, and I put it to Mr. Mullen that it is not sufficient to simply say, "We do not know what we are going to say." This issue has been well flagged and this committee flagged it two years ago. It is not a game of poker, I would hope, in relation to the engagement with Coimisiún na Meán, or that we must have our cards close to our hand.

In the context of the public service broadcaster, it is interesting that reference was made to the mandate for commercial earning. I believe this is something we need to look into in all of our semi-State and public bodies. I have tried to change the mandates of Coillte and Bord na Mona so they do not let the commercial short-term considerations override other responsibilities they should have, for example, around the environment. Similarly, RTÉ has a public service mandate that should require it to give leadership in relation to this discussion. I would have expected that. The witnesses mentioned that RTÉ is in competition but the great advantage of regulation from Coimisiún na Meán is that it will apply to all actors. Surely if RTÉ has been disadvantaged by these high standards the witnesses have been telling us about it would be in RTÉ's interest for there to be actual regulations and actual legislative requirements placed on all actors in the sector. Is that not a position RTÉ should be taking, for public service responsibility and to ensure it is not disadvantaged by these if it seeks to apply higher standards?

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator must be mindful of her time.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

That is it. It is just on those questions around the engagement with the mandate, engagement with the regulatory process, which I understand is under way, and the questions of the how as well as the what. Perhaps Irish Doctors for the Environment could kick off. That would be useful.

Dr. Ola Nordrum

We talked about this before. Air pollution, as one example of fossil fuel health harm, is the second biggest risk factor for death globally. When I talk to patients I talk about the biggest risk factor being high blood pressure and smoking being the third biggest risk factor, but air pollution is not something I talk about because it is not something I can address. I can address the blood pressure and I can address the smoking but air pollution is not something I can directly address. I can do so in this setting, however. When we talk about this it is all about preventing disease not just treating disease, treating the symptom and treating the patients when they come into me in the emergency department of into the hospital. It is about preventing them from becoming sick in the first place. As the Cathaoirleach pointed out, and this is from the UN as well, fossil fuel bans are a way of protecting public health and also a way to reduce emissions. That was the point I wanted to make.

Dr. Lisa McNamee

If any other health intervention had the power that this would actually give to patients we would be advocating for it. As medics, because this is the second global risk factor and threat to human health, we have to use any tools we have at our disposal to do so. Anything that can damage human health to such a degree must carry at a minimum a health warning if not an outright ban. That is the perspective we are coming from as doctors.

Mr. Gavin Deans

On Mr. Mullen's point about RTÉ's perspective, what we are trying to say is that we, as a leadership team, are taking that on to have a look so we will have a viewpoint of that across all sectors of RTÉ, not necessarily everybody sitting at this table today but as a wider thing. We will come back in terms of that and would welcome doing that.

That tension we talked about between the two differences is a commercial tension. We are not chasing particular revenues in a particular category or trying to change legislation. We are trying to work within the legislation we have currently.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

New regulation is being created and that is the context.

Mr. Gavin Deans

Absolutely; that was my point at the start.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

Its creation point right now is not compliant.

Mr. Gavin Deans

We will come back on that. I do not want to say something here that is not truthful. The point about how advertising is made is somewhere we have less input. There is different advertising made across the different markets from local radio to international players. To be honest, we probably do not have a system to monitor or control that across the Albert code.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

There is automatic play and multiplay on digital platforms. Each one has a different carbon impact for each form of advertisement made available for sale.

Mr. Gavin Deans

To be perfectly honest, I do not know. Mr. Bannon may know more.

Mr. Troy Bannon

I have not seen that in the Albert space. My own team had early involvement with Albert coming to Ireland and we are part of the network that produced it. One of my team also acts in support of the production teams in RTÉ. I have not seen it as part of advertising productions as yet. Albert covers the production side, but it also has content on the editorial side too. That refers to the content pledge that RTÉ has signed up to. There is guidance from Albert even in drama situations as to how you can promote good sustainable behaviour and so forth, outside of producing in a sustainable way. However, I have not seen it in the commercial sector.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

I have a tiny question because I see I have little time left.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator does not have any time left.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

I am out of time-----

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy O'Rourke is waiting.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

-----maybe he can answer with the others. I am concerned about always trying to find the positive piece. It is about international climate justice and difficult topics like loss and damage and inequality issues.

An Cathaoirleach

I want to be fair to Deputy O’Rourke-----

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

Maybe it could be addressed with others.

An Cathaoirleach

No, because I want to be fair to Deputy O'Rourke who is waiting.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

He could come in as part of his response to him.

An Cathaoirleach

He might do that.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I thank the witnesses. RTÉ and the development of ads was touched on, with the relationship between it as the broadcaster and the advertiser. It was about the developing the ad, the pitch and the particular focus. Is there a role for RTÉ in that, or is it entirely led by the advertiser? When the advert is prepared, is there a role for RTÉ in assessing the content of it? I am thinking particularly of charges of greenwashing. We are obviously talking here about fossil fuel advertising. Is there an assessment of the content, and if so, what does that process look like, or is that entirely a role for the ASAI?

I have a separate but related question for both sets of witnesses. We are having this discussion today. There is legislation published and this is not the first time we have had this discussion at this committee. It is a discussion happening within a wider international context. There are variations on it. In the past, we have obviously had bans on tobacco advertising for example. We are soon to have more restrictions on gambling advertising. There is a prospect in the first instance of this Government or a future one moving in the direction of outright bans or restrictions. There may also be a demand on advertisers to look at the climate impact of their product for example, in terms of health warnings.

We gave the example of EVs. How would the witnesses envisage such a transition? The representatives from RTÉ mentioned that it may impact up to 10% of its current advertising revenue. Regarding the transition, therefore, I presume there would be a desire to see engagement across the sector. I would like both sets of witnesses to set out their initial thoughts in this regard.

Mr. Gavin Deans

From the perspective of the creation of advertising, we make very little of the actual creative advertising. We have advertising across audio, radio, TV, video and the player, and then also digital and online for rte.ie and our news apps. Advertisements are predominantly, I would say at least 85%, made by creative agencies. The way the market works is that each advertiser has a different advertising agency, as well as a media agency, that, typically, does the creative work and creates the advert. If the advert is for television, depending on how it is made for the market, it can be from an international creative with Irish voice-overs, or vice versa, it can be made by a local client. If it is more a local client, the tendency is for such advertisements to be made more so in Ireland. There are different executions in this regard.

We would not have the data or be able to provide the data on how such material is made and the impact on the environment at this stage. That would probably come from an advertising standards context. The Institute of Advertising Practitioners of Ireland, IAPI, is working on several initiatives concerning the environment parts of this context. Again, these are two different sides from the perspectives of a media agency and a creative standpoint.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

Is there ever a case where it is said an advert will not be run? Is any rule run over the adverts?

Mr. Gavin Deans

Yes, there are many.

Mr. Conor Mullen

Just to add to that point, all ads broadcast go through a stringent clearance process, which can vary. Sometimes, we might have international copy that has already been made. If it is made locally, we might have a script. We go through the script and if claims are made in it, we would need them to be substantiated. If they are not substantiated, the claim is either withdrawn or the copy is changed. We do go through a process, therefore. In the instance I just gave, the script, if it was for radio, would be approved subject to listening. The final copy would come in with the audio and if that complied with what was already approved in the script, it will go to air. We then check that what has been approved is what goes into the broadcast system. What goes to air, therefore, is what has been approved through the process.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I thank Mr. Mullen. I am conscious of time. To both sets of witnesses, I pose that question on a potential transition towards placing a ban or restrictions on advertising fossil fuels or some reference to the climate impact of various products. How would that type of transition be envisaged?

Mr. Gavin Deans

Is the exact question how we would register that or how we understand the impact on revenue or-----

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

No, I will clarify the question. If I set out a scenario where this or a future Government was moving in the direction of restricting the advertising of certain sectors or perhaps outright bans in some cases, what would RTÉ like to see happening from its perspective as a broadcaster and an organisation that benefits from advertising revenue in terms of how that process might be managed and the role for RTÉ and others in influencing it?

Mr. Gavin Deans

Yes.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

-----

Mr. Gavin Deans

The process is that it would be done in a timely manner so that we can understand what the impact is and plan for it and it should be fair across all media and not just a case of one-size-fits-all for TV or radio, but also apply online and across every player. That is very important. As I said, we will manage and help to drive a better process around this issue, but it has to be fair and we have to play by the same rules as others. We would track such a change and have done so in the context of other changes, as the Deputy outlined, to the advertising codes as they have come out throughout the year. As we mentioned concerning alcohol, the situation in that regard is going to change from January of this year. The important point concerns the changes and ensuring we can do the right things in this context. This is an impact from a commercial point of view and we will manage that impact on that activity.

We ask that it is fair. As I said, we will get the viewpoint of all of RTÉ and come back on that. However, it is important that it is fair, that we understand it all and that we have it in a timely manner.

Mr. Conor Mullen

It is important that we have clarity around it as well. We may have questions with regard to how the legislation may come to be enacted so that we can ensure that we are doing the right thing.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Deputy O'Rourke. We were on track to finish as 12.30 p.m. until Deputy O'Sullivan arrived. I know he was listening and is interested in the subject so I will allow time for him to contribute if he wishes.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I thank the Cathaoirleach. To add to the comments on RTÉ programming, I especially want to shout out for "Mooney goes Wild", which is the only show solely focused on biodiversity. It is understated but extraordinary. We all know the national participation that "Dawn Chorus" gets. It is an extraordinary show. Long may it continue to air, perhaps more in prime time. I am just giving a shout-out on that.

My question for Doctors for the Environment is in relation to the initial point of banning fossil fuel advertising. I will take up where Senator Dooley left off as regard trying to find a balance and bring people with us. There absolutely is merit in what is being suggested. Everyone present has alluded to restricting fossil fuel advertising. Senator Dooley's point was that the key challenge we have is bringing the entire population with us on this journey. I do not like using that word but that is kind of the point. For example, we alluded to the banning of tobacco adverts and the effectiveness of that. In fairness, there is an option when it comes to smoking. A person can either smoke or not smoke. Unfortunately, this State in particular has to date failed to provide options for sustainable travel, especially in places like west Cork, where I live, where the only way one can get anywhere in most cases is by car. There is the option of an electric vehicle now. We know EVs are more expensive. They are incredibly effective. I am a big supporter of EVs and their roll-out. However, we are not there yet.

I guess that is what I am coming to. There is the point that we are an island nation and we like to travel. One of our best assets is that we love to look outside Ireland. We are not inward looking, we like to explore and learn about other cultures and places and we fly to other places. What Senator Dooley was alluding to is that, in many of these instances, the alternatives are not there yet. We should be way further down the line in providing alternatives, especially in terms of public transport. EVs should be far more widely available and at a more affordable cost. I disagree slightly with the Cathaoirleach, Deputy Leddin, who has a thing about vehicles in general.

An Cathaoirleach

That is not true. I just want them to be smaller, lighter, more efficient and less carbon intensive.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Fair enough. I genuinely feel that they have a place, especially in rural parts of Ireland. I know the witnesses are coming at it from a health perspective and we have to take that on board. They are saying that fossil fuel pollution is causing deaths. We have to take that on board but, coming back to the point that Senator Dooley made, it is a question of how we bring people with us.

Dr. Ola Nordrum

The point I would make is that the current advertising system we have is causing harm. It is not a neutral system whereby we are not causing any harm. We first have to accept that as a key starting point because, by definition, what the fossil fuel advertising industry is doing is trying to sell a product to the consumer and trying to influence the consumer into buying a product that might benefit them on the individual level but which, on a global level and planetary level, is causing harm. This is all about changing behaviour and changing consumer behaviour. If we were to treat fossil fuels as a disease or as a medical problem as a whole, stopping or banning advertising would be a natural first step.

Senator Timmy Dooley

What would happen in the long term if that is the first step?

Dr. Ola Nordrum

I am not a politician but you are not banning the option. Buying a car or an aeroplane is not being banned, nor is buying a ticket to fly to America. It is just the advertisement that is trying to get the consumer to do it, that is being taken away.

It can still be accessible on the website of the car dealership and so on, but it is just taking away the temptation that is so frequent in modern society.

I have a further point. We talk about the global number of 8.1 million deaths. The majority of people suffering because of climate change are not living in Ireland. They are living in Africa and developing countries and they have no access to airlines, cruise lines or SUVs, whether electric or fossil fuel. That is another key aspect, namely, what we are doing here today is causing harm elsewhere. From my point of view as a medic, removing fossil fuel adverts is a very small sacrifice in the grand scheme of things, given what we are faced with.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

It is a very interesting discussion and we have had a brilliant exchange of views. The alcohol industry got around it with its 0.0% products and I imagine the same would happen with car companies selling their EV products, which is okay too.

It is interesting to hear the percentage of revenue for RTÉ. It is a lot of money. Many of these adverts are being targeted online, by the sound of things.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

The issue of alcohol and tobacco came up. It would be a useful comparator to get the statistics of how much advertising they represented before the change came in. I know Ms McCarthy had a lot of great things to say on the international issues and perhaps she can follow up in writing.

Mr. Gavin Deans

With regard to records, tobacco was a long time ago and the changes regarding alcohol do not come into effect until January.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

RTÉ seemed to have a good breakdown of how much advertising there has been in those areas.

Mr. Gavin Deans

We have it all in respect of alcohol. I am just making the point about tobacco.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask RTÉ to send on that information to help us. We hope to prepare a report. We will take this session and the session of almost two years ago, put those together and synthesise that into a report with recommendations for the Government. We hope to do that in the next few weeks. If the witnesses wish to send any further information to us in that short timeframe, we would appreciate it. It can be sent to the secretariat.

We are well over time. I thank the witnesses from RTÉ and Irish Doctors for the Environment for giving of their time and expertise. It was a very engaging discussion and, as Mr. Mullen said, a timely one given the work that Coimisiún na Meán is doing at the moment. I would like to think the discussion we had today will influence the outcome of its work.

We will suspend to allow for the changeover of witnesses.

Sitting suspended at 12.38 p.m. and resumed at 12.47 p.m.