Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action debate -
Thursday, 24 Oct 2024

Review of Climate Action Plan 2024: Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment

An Cathaoirleach

The purpose of this meeting is to discuss the climate action plan ahead of the next iteration of that plan in the context of ensuring that the State is on track with respect to its targets for 2030 and the longer term target relating to 2050.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome the Minister, Deputy Peter Burke, and his officials. Members should note that the Minister is operating under time a constraint and has to leave for another engagement by 2.30 p.m. We will endeavour to get through the questions and answers as quickly as possible.

Before we begin, I will read the note on privilege. I remind our guests of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, I will direct them to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members of the committee are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members that they are only allowed to participate in the meeting if they are physically located in the Leinster House complex. I ask members joining us via Microsoft Teams to confirm they are on the grounds of Leinster House prior to making their contribution to the meeting. I see quite a few members are joining us from their offices. I ask them to confirm they are in their offices.

I call the Minister to make his opening statement.

Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Deputy Peter Burke)

I thank the members of the committee for inviting me to speak. With me are: Mr. Gary Tobin, assistant secretary with our enterprise strategy, competitiveness and evaluation division; Mr. Joseph Cummins, head of our climate action and energy policy unit; Ms Cathy Madden and Aisling McCarthy from our climate action programmes unit; and Mr. Jack McDermott from our offshore wind strategy unit.

I am very much looking forward to discussing with the committee members the role of my Department in accelerating the green transition in our economy. As they will know, our approach to the green transition is guided by the programme for Government, the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development Act and successive climate action plans. Government is also guided by the White Paper on Enterprise 2022-2030, which sets out our objectives for a competitive, sustainable economy fit for the opportunities of the future. Together, these documents set out an ambitious path to decarbonising our enterprise base while embedding resilience and competitiveness in the economy.

Decarbonisation is firmly established as a core pillar of my Department’s work across its broad range of functions. Under the sectoral emissions ceilings, my Department leads on addressing emissions from our manufacturing industry and from commercial buildings.

In our manufacturing sector, we know what we have to do. I published an industrial decarbonisation roadmap earlier this year which sets out a shared plan for industry and Government. Meeting our 2030 targets relies on four interventions. These are: energy efficiency in all processes, right-sizing energy demand; electrification of low temperature heat up to 150°C; investing in renewable bioenergy, such as biomass and biomethane, where heat cannot be electrified; and diversification of construction materials, using lower carbon products such as timber, and a public procurement mandate to drive the market for lower carbon cement and concrete.

Alongside our industry roadmap, I announced €300 million in funding ring-fenced for decarbonisation projects in our manufacturers. Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland are working closely with clients in the manufacturing sectors to develop high-impact projects to reduce emissions and enhance competitiveness.

As the committee will be aware, emissions from cement production is one of the most challenging areas to address. Earlier this month, I held a round-table discussion with the sector to emphasise the need for ambition in their decarbonisation plans and to get an update from the sector. We are also tackling this sector by changing the way the State buys cement and concrete products, and modernising our construction sector. I issued guidance to my Government colleagues as to how to achieve this through their Departments and agencies to comply with their mandatory public sector climate action mandate obligation. Enterprise Ireland is working with cement producers to invest in decarbonisation through research and development, fuel switching and efficiency. While there are no silver bullets for the cement sector’s emissions, we are making progress.

My Department has also prepared a decarbonisation roadmap for our commercial buildings, which will be published shortly.

Many businesses, particularly SMEs, are operating in a difficult cost environment. It is essential that we communicate and secure the benefits of climate action and renewable energy for businesses of all sizes. Our commercial buildings roadmap will set out our plan to invest in our buildings and unlock those co-benefits of sustainability and competitiveness. I am working closely with the Minister, Deputy Ryan, to ensure that we are supporting businesses to invest in their energy efficiency, save on energy costs and improve their work environment. There are simple, cost-effective steps every business can take to get started. The climate toolkit for business is a good place to start and our national enterprise hub has the full range of State supports.

Our ambition is high, so it is important to acknowledge our challenges also. In particular, I am determined that we must accelerate the delivery of energy infrastructure, upgrade our electricity grid and connect more renewable energy. A relentless focus on infrastructure delivery is required to meet our decarbonisation targets and economic opportunities. We must ensure that the lower marginal costs of renewable energy are shared with energy customers.

The committee knows that the green transition is already under way and irreversible. The EPA’s emissions inventories demonstrate that our approach is working. Industry emissions are going in the opposite direction to our economic growth, with emissions decreasing by 5% in 2023 relative to 2022 and by 9.6% relative to 2018, the base year for sectoral emissions ceilings. This is in contrast with the significant economic expansion over the same period. My Department and our agencies are working closely with businesses to ensure that Ireland not only navigates the green transition, but also harnesses it.

I thank the committee again for the opportunity to discuss these topics.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister for his opening statement. I invite colleagues to ask questions of him. I remind them that we have less than 45 minutes. I hope that we can get through all of the questions in that time. I will speed people up, both members and the Minister, if I feel intervention is warranted.

Deputy Paul Murphy

It is noticeable that the Minister did not mention data centres, which are the elephant in the room where our carbon emissions and energy usage are concerned. He has probably seen that the SEAI says that the growth in electricity demand from data centres last year was more than all the renewable energy that was connected to the grid last year, illustrating the problem of attempting to go down an escalator that is heading upwards faster than we are walking. It means we get further away from transitioning to 100% renewable energy. Data from UCC’s Professor Hannah Daly is even more shocking. She estimates that only 16% of the new electricity demand from data centres since 2020 was matched by additional wind energy generation. In other words, data centre demand grew six times faster than new renewables development. She further calculates that data centres are responsible for 4% of Ireland’s greenhouse gas emissions and 21% of our electricity demand. The latter figure is due to reach 30% by 2030, meaning data centres will reach approximately 6% of our total emissions while emissions from the built environment account for less than 10% of the total. What does the Minister think is more important, reaching the climate targets or promoting the growth of data centres?

Deputy Peter Burke

Both are important. It is not simple to decouple them. We need to be clear about the value that data centres bring to our economy. Ours is a modern economy that has attracted significant investment. Approximately one in every seven euro that we will spend under budget 2025 will come from foreign direct investment, that is, corporation tax, in our economy. As a value proposition, our country needs to be agile and have the scope to attract significant employers that employ many high-value jobs. We need a sustainable approach and certainty as regards how we manage our large energy user policy in the next number of years. Our target is to have 37 GW of offshore wind energy by 2050. We need people to be able to use that energy. Currently, our country uses approximately 6 GW. With our economic growth, we are on course to exceed 10 GW. Given the number of offshore renewable projects we will have on the east coast in the years ahead, though, we need to bring value to the Irish people from that energy. Data centres and other large energy users will play a part in that. We will need infrastructure and we will need customers to use that energy. We will need to book that economic value in Ireland. Many companies are underwritten by data centres booking so much economic value here. This country has an agile way of working, one that was challenged by the pandemic, and having so many significant employers is important.

The premise of the Deputy’s question is incorrect. Our trajectory can accommodate sustainable economic growth, decouple that from emissions, which the evidence shows we have commenced doing, and offer high-value jobs.

Deputy Paul Murphy

The Minister might explain what he meant by us needing customers for the renewable energy.

Deputy Peter Burke

We need large energy users. If we have 37 GW of energy by 2050, we need to use the value of that energy on our shore. We do not want to export everything, but to use that energy for our society so that we can benefit from the economic value it adds.

Deputy Paul Murphy

In order to meet our climate change targets, we need to increase our energy usage.

Deputy Peter Burke

No. What I said clearly was that we had the large capacity to increase our renewable, clean, green energy. With the new legislation that has been introduced, we have a new pathway for our offshore renewable contracts, four of which have been signed on the east coast. We have a significant pipeline of renewable, clean, green energy, both via onshore and offshore wind and through other mechanisms in the State. We are going to have a vast amount of energy by 2050, so it is important that we have significant energy users. They underwrite employment. The idea the Deputy is espousing is that we can close down our country to significant employers and say that we are not open for business anymore and cannot manage the green transition in a way that delivers for business. Bord na Móna is working on delivering five energy parks. Those are a more sustainable method to use for-----

Deputy Paul Murphy

I am sorry to interrupt, but I just want to follow up on something. How many jobs are in data centres in Ireland? I do not mean in the building of data centres, but in their operation.

Deputy Peter Burke

They underwrite very significant employment in this country, and do not mistake that.

Deputy Paul Murphy

Minister-----

Deputy Peter Burke

The actual data centres themselves-----

Deputy Paul Murphy

How many jobs are in data centres in this country?

Deputy Peter Burke

There are thousands of jobs directly related to the prevalence of data centres in this country and do not in any way underestimate that, because there are and I know there are.

Deputy Paul Murphy

I will go one more time.

Deputy Peter Burke

I have met many of these foreign companies that are in this country providing high-value jobs, not to do what you would espouse.

Deputy Paul Murphy

Minister, may I ask the question one more time? I would like an answer. The Minister is talking-----

Deputy Peter Burke

I have given you my answer. There are thousands of jobs underwritten in this country by data centres.

Deputy Paul Murphy

Yes, but-----

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Murphy is out of time. We do not have as much time today.

Deputy Paul Murphy

It is a joke that the Minister comes in here and says we need more data centres in order to transition and because of all the jobs, but when he is asked about how many jobs-----

Deputy Peter Burke

That is not what I said.

An Cathaoirleach

I will bring Deputy Murphy back in if there is time.

Deputy Peter Burke

There are 18,000 people employed in building data centres,-----

Deputy Paul Murphy

Yes, but that is not what I asked.

An Cathaoirleach

I am going to move on-----

Deputy Peter Burke

-----but there are thousands of people who have jobs that are reliant on security of energy policy and the commercial data centres.

An Cathaoirleach

-----because I want to be fair to colleagues who are waiting and have indicated. I will bring Deputy Murphy back in again if there is time at the end.

Deputy Richard Bruton

Data centres are at the heart of the ICT sector. That is the reality. Without them, we cannot develop a sector in which we have created a considerable competitive advantage. We have short-term problems of capacity constraints in meeting their demand. As the Minister said, though, we have a substantial opportunity in the long term to develop the offshore sector. We need domestic users of that capacity. We have a challenge, which the Minister is seeking to articulate, in maintaining the progress of a sector that is crucial to our economic model and the digital progress we are making.

Data centres are part of the emissions trading system. The reason for this is that data centres within Europe ought to locate in the areas where they would be best located. Ireland has considerable advantages. The ETS is not part of our effort sharing.

The ETS is designed to encourage the location of large users in the places they are most competitive. Deputy Murphy, with all due respect, is seeking to make a misplaced case. We need to develop sectors in an orderly way to maximise our opportunity. I do not like the sort of badgering the Minister is getting because he is trying to manage a short-term difficulty for a long-term gain.

I know it has been a very difficult couple of weeks for the Minister and I thank him for being here. My question relates to progress. According to last year's plan, with 45% of the carbon budget for the industrial sector used up, we are not on a trajectory to meet the carbon budget. I am trying to identify what areas could get us back on track or where we have the most opportunity. It is disappointing that there is a low green take-up in much of the business sector. One thing that is a hobby horse of mine is that I would like to see the Minister, through his Department, develop circular strategies in the key economic sectors, namely, food, construction, white goods, consumer durables and so on. There are huge opportunities for us to-----

An Cathaoirleach

I remind the Deputy about the time.

Deputy Richard Bruton

There are huge opportunities for us to rethink the way we design these sectors to reduce their impact both on climate and the wider environment. My specific question is: will the Minister consider introducing sectoral strategies around the circular economy in the key sectors within his remit?

Deputy Peter Burke

I thank the Deputy for the number of questions he has put forward. In terms of the reduction, we have approximately 9.6% of a reduction in industry on 2018 levels. If the cement industry is excluded, it is 11.5%. Obviously, in the commercial built environment, it is 15.7% since 2018 and if the cement sector is taken out, it is a reduction of an additional 7%. There is significant progress but I am very aware of the challenge ahead.

The €300 million decarbonisation scheme that has been embraced by iconic companies such as Diageo, which is 264 years old, shows how it can go on a trajectory to being carbon neutral. Across those sectors, the sharing of that information will be very important for other companies to benefit through that competitive process Enterprise Ireland is running. Looking at the figures of those that have utilised funding already, for 2025 we are up to €38 million. It was €28 million in 2024. There is a steady increase in terms of that trajectory, which will be very important. That grant aid will need to be increased in future years, as well as the learning we have.

On food, drinks and dairy, there are big challenges as in the cement sector. We had a round table and will have to work with procurement policy. Also, the processing of heat is very challenging for that sector. They are doing a lot of research and development and Enterprise Ireland is leading, working with and supporting them to do just that.

Sectoral targets in terms of rather than asking the sectors to lead, having a Government strategy to do so, is a very interesting point. That will be something for party manifestos at this juncture. It is not something I will be able to move on but it is a very substantial point. I note the various sectors in which there are challenges. I will point out how in terms of how we move forward with industrial heat our roadmap is very clearly set out. We have moved forward with procurement by flagging to the cement sector how much it needs to change in the months and years ahead. I hope we will be also able to take a number of measures before the Government's work is complete. That will be very important.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

I thank the Minister for his opening statement. I will pick up on some of the points raised by Deputy Murphy. I was very surprised to hear this narrative that we will have lots of energy down the line and so we need to facilitate large energy users now. It seems to be very much a cart before the horse situation. Surely if we are in a situation where we were to have a large amount of renewable energy then at that point we could look to how it might be used. We have interconnectors and when we look to this as a global issue, we are trying to ensure and support the use of renewable energy everywhere. I imagine there may also be the option, if Ireland does move to a point of having such large amounts of renewable energy, for us to look at exporting renewable energy. I do not believe we will have to use it at home per se.

The other issue is that it seems to be inconsistent with some of the logic we heard, for example, around what was to my mind the unfathomable decision to include provision for the fast-tracking of liquefied natural gas terminals and the storage of gas. The statistics we have at the moment show the energy demand from data centres has outpaced the increase in renewables. At a very basic level, surely we should not be increasing demand beyond what we have onstream in terms of renewable increase and renewable capacity. Bearing in mind those reports-----

An Cathaoirleach

I remind Senator Higgins of the time.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

-----there are also issues in terms of the back-up gas generators. Will the Minister comment on the recommendation there should be no further gas connections given to data centres that might come through?

I want to focus on two other issues. It would be really good if the committee could get it in writing that specific piece which is the employment within data centres explicitly, not within the industry, and what people would like. We have had an ICT sector for a long time and it is here for a lot of different reasons but it would be useful to know the statistic, not in the creation of, building of or the companies that like to use data centres.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

These are two very specific points.

I welcome the establishment of the just transition commission. It points to the fact of investment in areas that are employment-rich. I welcome the fact the Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation in its pre-budget submission specifically mentioned the just transition commission.

An Cathaoirleach

I want to give the Minister time to answer.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

Will the Minister focus on how we press for investment in jobs such as jobs in the care area, including ecological care, which will be both job-intensive and facilitate a just transition? Will the Minister comment on that?

A mandate for procurement was mentioned. Is it the intention to have technical specifications around the kinds of cement or other materials, or is it the intention to have criteria attached when it comes to the awarding of public procurement? What are the tools through public procurement, in terms of mandatory tools, that will require these kinds of shifts in material usage that were indicated by the Minister?

Deputy Peter Burke

I thank Senator Higgins for her questions. As I pointed out during my earlier contributions, it is not about the employment at the data centre; it is about how much employment it underwrites and supports. That is the key thing. There are so many companies in operation in our State that explicitly rely on data centres to underwrite their activities and keep the high-value jobs that are there. The critical thing - and it is a case people will argue about in the future - is that if you have a significant amount of renewable energy, when you have an opportunity such as Bord na Mona developing energy parks, when you have data centres operating off clean green energy and when you can support a hub in the ICT and technology area and grow investment there all the time, and if you can support that with our own domestic energy, that is a good day for Ireland instead of exporting that energy.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

We currently cannot. That is what the statistics are saying.

Deputy Peter Burke

We have a process to manage it. We are all very honest and clear on this. I am not saying at this point that every data centre can get connected. We have to sustainably manage the energy we have available and ensure other sectors do not suffer. We are very ambitious when it comes to other areas in our economy and it is important the CRU manages that process. It will make a determination shortly. My critical point is that as we look forward over the next decade and beyond, we need to have very significant energy users that support high-value jobs in our economy. We cannot be closed to inward investment and say this is someone else's issue to deal with. As an economy, we have attracted so many high-value jobs that data centres are supporting.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

On the other issues, perhaps-----

Deputy Peter Burke

Anyone who says contrary to that, I believe is misleading people.

An Cathaoirleach

There were one or two other questions there that I will give the Minister a moment to answer.

Deputy Peter Burke

We are waiting for the CRU to make an adjudication, which it will do shortly. We have published our guidance in respect of cement. I had a round-table meeting with the cement group and representatives of Enterprise Ireland to try to ensure that it will be ready when the rules relating to public procurement change shortly. The members of the group will have to be ready to ensure that they are using lower carbon cement. This will be critical. There is a lot more work to do on it. We want to support them in research and development efforts to change the processes relating to how they work and generate energy on site, which will be very important.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

The Minister mentioned that the rules on procurement are going to change. That is the aspect I am interested in. Will the change relate to the technical specifications or the criteria?

Deputy Peter Burke

The technical specification.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

Is the just transition commission going to focus on things like this?

Deputy Peter Burke

There are major opportunities with the just transition commission. I represent the midlands. I have seen how much my community has changed because of the transition that is being made. The Cabinet appointed a new commission under the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, in recent days. This will be very important for the delivery of so much change in my region, particularly as it will give rise to high-value, clean jobs. We will work very closely with the commission on this.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

Will enterprise strategy follow the just transition commission?

An Cathaoirleach

Sorry, I am going to allow Deputy Farrell in to speak. I will come back to Senator Higgins if there is time.

Deputy Alan Farrell

I thank the Minister for coming before the committee. Yesterday, a far older, wiser and more experienced colleague of ours stated that there are political forces whose role is to find conflict as opposed to identifying ways to collaborate to solve problems. Those forces are on display at this committee. Regarding the €300 million in grant funding the Minister mentioned, will the he communicate with the committee by email or letter and provide more information on the sectors that are going to be targeted? The Minister mentioned concrete, but I am sure there are other sectors in play.

I want of focus on the SME sector, specifically in the context of the decarbonisation plan the Minister referred to that is to be published shortly. Of late, one of the things I have observed, particularly in the context of the cost-of-living crisis being felt across the country, is the pressure being placed on the SME sector. There are significant supports available, including the €4,000 energy grant that is being allocated for small businesses. Will the Minister provide more information on the sort of framework the decarbonisation plan will contain in order to try to support businesses in lowering costs, while also reducing their emissions and, I presume, aiming to make their operations net zero? What will the Department be doing to support the achievement of these aims?

Deputy Peter Burke

I thank the Deputy for those very important questions. As I pointed out earlier, the €300 million decarbonisation fund has seen significant allocations over the past two years, with approximately €28.8 million allocated in 2023 and more than €38.3 million this year. Companies with significant emissions are on the radar. Diageo, for example, has used it to put together a five or six year plan for the short term to identify how it is going to get to net zero. Sharing this information with industry will very important because the State is giving environmental aid to enable these companies go make this change.

The Deputy is quite right to emphasise the importance of the SMEs. I have made a number of changes to the €10,000 energy efficiency grant over the past couple of weeks. We have seen a 100% increase in uptake for the grant because we have made the application process much simpler. There were significant conditions attached for people applying for the grant. I know the amount is small in the greater scheme of things but it can make a hell of a lot of a difference to a small retailer, a coffee shop or a small restaurant. We have seen examples of how people can reduce their energy bill by €1,000 or €1,500 a month.

On the bigger issue of the roadmap and the journey we are on, it involves district heating policy and energy performance in the context of the building directives. It also addresses energy efficiency measures that can be used. There is a huge body of work that will require substantial funding before it can be embarked upon. We will be supporting business to do that. We know that we have decoupled economic growth from increases in emissions. They are decreasing now but we are not taking anything for granted because there are significant challenges ahead, as the Deputy pointed out.

Deputy Alan Farrell

I have one follow-up question. Is there a budget associated with the plan being brought forward for the SME sector? Will the Minister outline it to the committee?

Deputy Peter Burke

The SEAI will have the budget and will be implementing it.

Deputy Alan Farrell

I thank the Minister.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I thank the Minister for his opening statement. I want to ask about the policy relating to data centres. I have listened to the exchanges so far. I presume that the Government has a plan for the sustainable development of data centres. I have a couple of questions on this. What is the policy on direct gas supplies for data centres? In view of the time constraints, perhaps the Minister could focus on that. Will he address the issue of electricity demand more generally and that of water supplies? In my county, the data centre in Clonee used 659 megalitres of water in 2023. This is more than any other data centre in the family of Meta data centres. How does the Minister and the Government propose to deal with those massive resource demands within the sector in a sustainable way when the challenge seems so incredible?

Deputy Peter Burke

I agree. It is a very serious challenge. As I have said, we have to sustainably manage the challenge because something that is not often referred to in this debate is the number of jobs supported by data centres like the one the Deputy mentioned in Clonee. This is a critical thing that we have to understand. Data centres do require significant infrastructure but they provide very high-value jobs in the communities that we all represent. We are looking at a regional balance, with job dispersals right across the country. Renewable energy projects will mirror that. In the future, in some very rural locations we will have very significant employers which data centres will be delivering jobs for. I am not tone deaf when it comes to this argument. I know that we have to manage this sustainably and that the implications are significant. That is why I referenced the energy parks being built by Bord na Móna. They will be a very important initiative. The corporate purchasing of renewable, green energy will be very important in the future. The CRU has to make a decision on gas, as the Deputy referenced. I do not want to do anything that would prejudge that. We are waiting for the independent agency to make a determination on it.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I know we are tight for time but I want to touch on the issue of concrete and I have listened to the Minister's comments on it so far. I hear a lot from the sector that there are new obligations and new levies but that the developed infrastructure is not there to support them to recycle or reuse construction materials. Does the Minister recognise this as a problem and a challenge and what proposals does he have in this regard?

Deputy Peter Burke

Construction waste accounts for about 41% of our industrial emissions so it poses a very serious challenge. I visited some sights and saw the work being done to try to change the processes. I have seen large amounts of recycled material being used by those companies. They continue to do a lot of work to try to utilise more carbon-neutral processes. That being said, the actual process of making cement is very challenging. It will take a lot of work to innovate and find new practices. That is why I included Enterprise Ireland at the recent round-table discussion to try to support them with research, development and innovative practices.

Bringing all the various representatives together will be a significant challenge but we have to do it and we are very clear on that. That is why we have tailored our procurement, in terms of going for low-carbon cement, but we have to continue with that reduction because there are some easy parts to it but processing involves very hard components. We will resolve them but it will take time and support. This journey is going to be very expensive.

An Cathaoirleach

I take this opportunity to ask three questions, all of which are related to other Ministers and Departments but where there is a role for the Minister's Department. Regarding the major decarbonisation piece with offshore wind energy, the early stage planning for the west coast and the designated maritime area plans, DMAPs, that is very much with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage if there is a resource issue in terms of the expertise needed to create the DMAPs. Is there pressure from the Minister and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment on his Cabinet colleague to accelerate the provision of DMAPs for the west coast as soon as possible?

Cement has been touched on. One of the ways forward in construction is to displace cement with other materials. Timber has fantastic potential. A lot of work has been done in forestry to grow wood for commercial reasons, including construction. There is a role for the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment in supporting that side of construction as well. What does the Minister intend to do to accelerate the displacement of cement and the use of timber?

My third question is similar and relates to hydrogen. In his opening statement, the Minister referred to biomethane but not to hydrogen. Hydrogen is a major part of our long-term vision but in order to get it rolling, we probably need to be supporting the SMEs and larger industries that are interested in hydrogen. An example would be supporting pilot projects. Does the Minister intend to support those early-stage movers in the hydrogen space?

Deputy Peter Burke

As someone who brought forward the legislation to establish MARA and provide a planning and consent regime for offshore renewable projects when Minister of State with responsibility for local government and planning, I believe it is important that we urgently address the west coast. We have DMAPs for the east and the south but the west coast will be a significant challenge. There are a lot of implications in terms of advanced technology we need to use to do that. I spoke to a number of actors in that space. I have been speaking to the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, about it. His view also is that there is nobody who can come at this point in time with a successful turbine that can sustain what is required on the west coast. I have been down at the Marine Institute in Cork looking at the research it is carrying out. It is something on which it has my full support. We urgently need to respond and have a DMAP there. While there might not be developers lining up because of the technology and the work we have to do, it is something we need to crack very quickly because it will be critical to our success as a country.

We are doing a lot of work with timber. We sit on the construction steering group. We are working with modern methods of construction to try to create a balance. Many of the big companies are using that process and I can see - even locally - the difference it makes. We are very open to trying to work with other products that have a more attractive carbon footprint. This is a big challenge but we are very open to it. We have set up a centre of excellence for MMC in Galway that is working very well. I recently met a number of people working down there. They are doing good work and will help us with our housing targets. This is the good we need to pull out of climate change, which is also very important.

Hydrogen is a major challenge. We are very interested in and open to supporting our SMEs along that road. It is one that must provide a significant solution as well.

An Cathaoirleach

Larger industry is interested in looking at hydrogen as well but would certainly need to be supported. There is certainly a role for it.

Deputy Peter Burke

The Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications has published a national strategy.

Deputy Paul Murphy

Has the Minister been lobbied by the data centre industry either individually as data centres or the varying lobbying organisations? If so, what have been they been pushing for and what has been his response? What measures are being taken to ensure the policy on data centres does not place significant stress on Ireland's water supply, as well as the stress on our electricity supply? We know the Clonee data centre used 659 Ml of water in 2023. Has the Department undertaken an analysis of how current data centre policy risks undermining decarbonisation of our energy system? Will he act to compel data centres to annually disclose their current emissions and future projected emissions?

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

I think the data centre questions have been well covered. I mentioned the Just Transition Commission. What work is happening with the Department of enterprise in terms of enterprise grants and enterprise structures to engage with the Just Transition Commission as it identifies new or existing sectors that will be key to just transition? Will there be a linking up between the many enterprise grants and supports that are in place?

Has there been a review of new areas of employment that might be needed, including new areas of public employment? I am looking specifically at what we heard today from the SEAI and others, namely, that there may be a case for a public body for retrofitting. This was not put forward by me. I do not want to misrepresent the SEAI but it spoke of how there are decades of work within the public sector. Are there new areas of public employment that might be part of just transition or part of our wider work in terms of climate and is the Minister looking to those?

Deputy Peter Burke

In response to Deputy Murphy, ye, I have been lobbied by all sectors. We have a lobbying register in this country, which was set up by my party in government to make how public representatives are asked to take certain courses of action more transparent. That does not mean we do it. I listen to people fairly. I also reflect on where our economy is but the key point is that this information is available to the public in a register established by my Government. It is transparent, which is very important.

Deputy Paul Murphy

What did they request?

Deputy Peter Burke

Data centres are looking for a sustainable large energy user connection policy that will get them across the next number of years and get our country across the next number of years. I have met many industries. I had a trade mission on the west coast and one on the east coast. Some significant employers in this country would point out how important it is to have certainty for our country in large energy usage of electricity, which I think is very important. Others may not think so but if we do not think that it is important, our country will pay a very significant price in an area that is carved out. Almost 8% of graduates in this country are in the ICT sector and are getting-----

Deputy Paul Murphy

To be clear, the Minister agreed with their asks.

Deputy Peter Burke

No, I do not agree with-----

An Cathaoirleach

I will not allow interruptions.

Deputy Peter Burke

I cannot go into everyone's ask here-----

Deputy Paul Murphy

I am just wondering. He tells me-----

Deputy Peter Burke

My Government has put together a lobbying register so everything is transparent so the Deputy can ask a question here.

Deputy Paul Murphy

I am asking the Minister about it.

Deputy Peter Burke

It is on the public record. All minutes of those meetings are available on the public record, again, through work my party has done to ensure it is transparent and all decisions are transparent.

An Cathaoirleach

The Minister is on his own time. Could he address the other questions by-----

Deputy Peter Burke

Some data centres with new technology use water while others use air. The EPA regulates their usage and it is important that it does so effectively. The corporate sustainability reporting directive and reporting requirements are coming down the line. We have signed up to the directive and the data centres will have to comply with it in terms of the measures and parameters the Deputy has set out, which is very important for information that is now being driven by the customer, which is very important, and not just seen as a cost.

In response to Senator Higgins on the just transition, there are huge opportunities contained in it and we are working very closely with our Department to ensure we embrace those opportunities. I have seen it in my own locality as a TD with the work Bord na Móna has done, leading to a clean, green company. The former Minister, Deputy Bruton, would be familiar, through his work in the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, with how much that has changed and how it is now a foremost company in Ireland in how best practice is achieved, going from a very old type of fossil fuel base to what it is now. When you see its energy parks, you see what the future is.

In addition, in the tourism space and other areas, being from the lake county and looking at Longford as well, I have seen a huge amount of work where the just transition has linked up with tourism and our Hidden Heartlands and our strategy in that regard. We are very much at the forefront. Working with the new Commission as it is established now, there is a huge amount we have to do. We need to show people that this transition is fruitful, it benefits communities and good jobs can come from it.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister. That was very good time - right up to 2.30 p.m.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

There was the last question on new areas of public employment.

Deputy Peter Burke

Public employment is vast in terms of what area you are looking at. The population of our State is growing rapidly. Looking at how much we have grown over recent years, it is quite significant. The public service will have to grow to match the services that our citizens require.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

I am thinking about retrofitting, for example. Retrofitting was the example of-----

Deputy Peter Burke

Retrofitting is a huge line of work. Many areas where people oppose having various levies to try to fund our carbon changes will be critical. I know from the midlands how much more we need to put into retrofitting. It is a huge challenge for us, at massive scale.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

Including potentially public employment.

Deputy Peter Burke

Local authorities, absolutely, yes.

An Cathaoirleach

We are past 2.30 p.m. The Minister needs to go. I thank colleagues for their co-operation. We had limited time but it has been a valuable and positive engagement. The Minister has been very forthcoming with his answers. I thank the Minister for making the time to meet with us this afternoon. As Deputy Bruton alluded to, it has been a difficult few weeks for the Minister, so we very much appreciate his time. We thank him for informing us of the work he and his Department are doing in this important area.

The joint committee adjourned at 2.32 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Tuesday, 5 November 2024.