JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Wednesday, 2 Apr 2003

Vol. 1 No. 6

Special Protection Areas: Presentation.

Chairman

We now move on to discuss special protection areas and our meeting with landowners. I welcome the delegation to the meeting. I draw attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice where they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official by name, in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We dealt with this subject extensively on 5 February and I do not regard it as necessary to have a repeat debate today. That being said, it is important that we listen to the concerns of the landowners. I ask members to make their contribution short and sweet.

Deputy Cregan

I welcome the delegation. I thought Dúchas was invited to attend and listen to the presentation. While Dúchas agreed with this request at the last meeting, it has not happened and I wish to express my dissatisfaction with it.

Chairman

That was not my understanding of it. While I understood that Dúchas would return at a future date, it was not invited to be present today.

Deputy Collins

I invited Dúchas to come to the public gallery to listen to the presentation of this group.

Deputy Murphy

That is correct and Dúchas agreed to do so.

Chairman

No official invitation was extended to Dúchas by the Chair. We briefly discussed the matter with the organisation and will not debate this all day. It is up to individual members to invite such organisations.

Mr. Michael O’Flynn

I thank the committee for allowing us the opportunity to air our grievances. I represent the farmers and landowners of west Limerick and north Cork. What Dúchas proposes will have a catastrophic effect on rural family life in our area. The area is mainly concerned with dairy, beef and suckler farming. The countryside in the area is rough and it is difficult to make a living from the land. One must have an off-farm income to supplement ones farm income. The people that were born in that area want to remain there. Their farm incomes come in the form of forestry and wind energy.

Included in our delegation are Mr. Gerry Gunning, Mr. Con Hickey, Mr. Nicholas Cotter from the forestry services, Mr. Michael Cowey, a professional with South-Western Farm Services, and members of the IFA. These people will outline the devastation the Dúchas proposals will make. Dúchas has turned down applications for forestry, as it wants to preserve the hen harrier. The hen harrier is living and flourishing at a wind farm just outside Tralee where the bird is nestling under the windmill. Dúchas has said that a windmill will interfere with the hen harrier. In my opinion, and that of the farmers I represent, this is total rubbish.

General farming practices will be interfered with by Dúchas. Dúchas has told us that while we can cut rushes, we cannot spray them. While the committee may not know much about rushes, I do.

Chairman

I grew up among them.

Mr. O’Flynn

If one grew up among rushes, one would know that cutting them only thickens their growth. This would quickly result in forestry in a field. It does not make sense to do this.

Dúchas has said it will pay compensation. Nothing has been committed to paper about this and we have no idea about what form it will take. Dúchas has also said that compensation will be tied to REPS. For anyone that is farming intensively in one way or another, REPS represents the opposite way that he or she wants to go. If a person in receipt of REPS makes one mistake, 25% or 50% of the plan is gone. What will happen if a farmer incurs a penalty with regard to the habitat of the hen harrier? The hen harrier is surviving well with the farming practices that are in place. We are proud to be the custodians of the countryside and, in our opinion, we are doing a good job and have not been proved wrong.

If Dúchas wants to impose SPAs on our land, it will have to compensate us fully and do so through dialogue. That dialogue must involve Dúchas publishing guidelines before it publishes the relevant maps. Dúchas has also said that if a farmer wants to carry any development on its lands, he must apply for planning permission to do so. If one wants to cut a hedge, widen a gap, drain a field, spread fertiliser, plant a forest or walk in a field, one must apply to Dúchas to do so. We own our land and are entitled to work it to the best of our abilities in order to make a living from it. For this reason, Dúchas should not be allowed to carry on with the devastation of farmers in the area to protect the hen harrier. The hen harrier is living well as things currently stand.

Forestry is part of the living in the area as it can be planted in wet land and provides another form of income. Wind farms will help keep people in places such as Rockchapel, Abbeyfeale, Mountcollins and Tournafulla. People want to live in these areas. The draconian policies Dúchas is implementing to decimate the people in these areas is disgraceful. The people have a right to be there and have the right to work with wind energy and make whatever money they can from it. They also have a right to plant trees. For this, Dúchas will have to abide by a set of proposals and guidelines.

The IFA is calling on Dúchas and the Joint Committee on the Environment and Local Government to carry out a more scientific evaluation of areas to determine whether they should be designated. This information should be given out publicly to farmers and landowners, with an opportunity to respond before their land is designated an SPA. In the event of designation, proceedings should include compensation for all losses, including devaluation of property, because when land is designated an SPA, this is immediately put on the deeds of the land.

Deputy Cregan

I apologise but there seems to be a vote in the Dáil.

Chairman

We have a few minutes, so we will proceed.

Mr. O’Flynn

For generations, since the time of the Famine, people have cut turf in the bog. It is close to people's hearts: in the spring and summer, one goes away and cuts turf for the winter. Dúchas is now saying there can be no commercial turf cutting in any bog. What is to become of the people in these areas who are making a living or part-time living cutting turf for other people? Will they walk away? They cannot; it is a natural resource. It is something to which everybody in the area has access. They cut turf for a living. If their bogs are designated SPAs, what will happen to these people? Will they become a thing of the past? It will be a disgrace if this committee allows that to happen. Will these people be extinct before the hen harrier? The people who cut turf and make a living from it and who keep the bogs in proper condition - there is no point in cutting turf if the bog is not left as it should be - have been doing this all their lives. How dare anybody come in and say they cannot do such a thing, that they cannot make a living from commercial turf cutting?

What will happen to the farmer when his land is designated an SPA?

Chairman

We will suspend the meeting for ten minutes for the vote in the Dáil.

Sitting suspended at 3.55 p.m. and resumed at 4.05 p.m.

Chairman

Mr. O'Flynn was in possession and was about to conclude.

Mr. O’Flynn

Having talked with Mr. Kenny, there is still nothing resolved. I want to reiterate before my distinguished colleagues come in that we must have consultation before anything is introduced. If maps are published, we must have those maps without there being an SPA on our land. For that reason I ask that we go over the IFA proposal and that Dúchas carry out a scientific evaluation in the areas to determine whether or not these areas should be designated. It is up to Dúchas to scientifically prove that these areas should be designated as SPAs because we fear that if they are and if it is included on all our deeds without prior consultation, it will decimate life in rural areas. This is about turf cutting, forestry and wind farming. It is basically a matter of their existence. Commodity prices are going down. There will not be enough jobs for everyone to avail of part-time work. We have no problem working to make sure the hen harrier survives and flourishes. We are worried that farmers might die before it does.

At this stage I will introduce our national chairman, Mr. Con Hickey, to further elucidate the IFA proposal.

Mr. Con Hickey

The IFA submission relates to objections to the designation of areas as SPAs to protect the hen harrier, specifically in the south-west. The IFA has a proposal to address the flaws and implications of the EU habitat directives and the broader area of SACs and NHAs.

The proposal by Dúchas to designate parts of mountain ranges as SPAs with no scientific evidence that warrants such designation is totally unacceptable. It is very unfair to the people involved in forestry, wind farms and so on. The areas being designated are mostly in the disadvantaged areas as designated by the Department of Agriculture and Food and the EU Commission. These areas are already handicapped and have very low farm incomes. Furthermore, the areas which it is proposed to designate are in CLÁR areas so designated by the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív, because the population in those areas has fallen by more than 50% since the foundation of the State. If these areas are designated as SPAs the population will decrease even further.

There is much pressure on farm incomes, and landowners and farmers need to develop other sources of income. As the land quality in those areas is not very good and, therefore, unsuitable for farming activities, the main alternatives are forestry and wind farming, both of which are under serious threat as a result of Dúchas's intention to designate these areas as SPAs. It is bad enough that these areas are being designated as SPAs or SACs but no compensation is being offered, which is not acceptable.

More generally, SACs and NHAs are a problem not only in west Limerick and north Cork but also in other areas of the country where there are river margins and raised bogs, such as the Shannon Callows. It is causing many problems around the country. Not alone are farmers restricted in the type of farming they can do, but their land and property is devalued. There is a big difference in the price of land before it is designated and its price after it is designated. I would also hope for another meeting on the wider problem of designation in the near future, as it is causing serious problems for farmers and landowners throughout the country.

Mr. O’Flynn

Perhaps Mr. Tim Cowhig from the SWS group will give us their view on wind farms and the detriment to the areas of designation.

Mr. Tim Cowhig

I thank the committee for giving us the opportunity to outline our concerns regarding the impending SPA designation and the confusion and frustration it has caused to date. My main role today is to put forward the views of wind farm developers, but I also hold the position of chairperson of the Irish Wind Energy Association. I represent a co-operative based in west Cork, the SWS group, which provides employment for more than 400 people. Since the 1990s, the SWS group has been involved in renewable energy projects, forestry establishment and rural development. The SWS group has identified renewable energy as an area with great potential that has the advantage of being environmentally friendly, helps maintain rural population by providing additional income, provides security of supply and helps reduce our balance of payments.

The risk capital involved in developing wind farming is quite high and can be prohibitive to small and medium-sized businesses. For that reason, it is important that defined policies and clear guidelines are a prerequisite to avoid confusion and ensure orderly development. There has been no sign of this to date.

All wind farm developments of more than five megawatts require an environmental impact statement to be submitted with the planning application. The purpose of this is to determine what, if any, impact a wind farm would have on the existing environment and to recommend the implementation of mitigation measures to ensure there are minimum impacts. As part of this planning progress Dúchas is contacted and invited to comment on any proposed development. It is at this stage that confusion and lack of clarity arises. There appear to be no clear guidelines, at best, there is confusion and, at worst, no policy. As developers, it is important that we protect our environment and we will always use mitigation measures to ensure minimal impact.

Dúchas's main concern appears to be that it does not know what effect a wind farm will have on the hen harrier. Dúchas has made available very limited scientific data of the impact of wind farms on hen harriers and this appears to be inconclusive. It appears that the main concern is not of collision with the turbines but with potential bird displacement. There is no evidence of this. Dúchas states that it requires more information to determine whether there are impacts associated with wind farms and hen harriers. Rather than stopping the process, this could be done by way of appropriate planning conditions. There is no evidence to suggest that wind farms and hen harriers are mutually exclusive.

Many farmers with proposed SPAs are looking to supplement their incomes through alternative land use such as forestry and wind farms. The majority of land in proposed SPAs is open moorland or rough grassland, the preferred foraging and nesting habitat of hen harriers. In these instances, Dúchas appears to be objecting to development based on the precautionary principle. It does not know what, if any, impact a wind farm will have on hen harriers and thus is objecting in principle to wind farms in proposed SPAs, which will result in substantial losses to land owners in areas that are suitable or have been designated for wind farms.

Most county councils have developed wind energy policies and have identified what are called strategic search areas, areas considered suitable by county councils for wind energy developments. Dúchas appears not to have been involved in this process. A conflict has arisen whereby sites deemed suitable under county council development plans and submitted for planning have been delayed in respect of the latter through the issue of the hen harrier. Planners have delayed granting of planning permission for developments within proposed SPAs. The current lack of any clearly defined policy from Dúchas has hindered what would otherwise have been a straight forward planning process. While the ultimate decision for granting of planning permission may lie with the county council, it has to consider recommendations by Dúchas and these are based on the precautionary principle rather than on evidence of impact.

Dúchas must clarify its position and work in co-operation with developers in identifying areas it considers suitable for wind energy within the proposed SPAs. Blanket designation of areas and the adoption of a precautionary principle with respect to wind energy in proposed SPAs is not a solution.

Delays in receipt of planning applications are very costly and impact on project viability. The window for replying under AER6 - the alternative energy requirement programme - extends to 24 April. Planning applications delayed because of a lack of clarity from Dúchas will be able to apply under this process. The following is, therefore, required: an extension of the AER6 entry period for developers who have suffered unreasonable delays as a result of this lack of policy and direction; or site specific compensation for losses which will be incurred for projects not qualifying for AER6, directly resulting from the lack of policy from Dúchas. Will Dúchas compensate developers for delaying the planning process or for refusals for planning based on the hen harriers? There is no scientific evidence of a conflict between developing wind farms and impacting on hen harriers.

Mr. Flynn

Mr. Nicholas Cotter from the forestry services will speak on the delay in Dúchas coming forward with its proposals and the detrimental effect on the income of farmers and on income to the forestry sector.

Mr. Nicholas Cotter

I thank the joint committee for the opportunity to speak and to answer any questions members may have regarding the impact of the proposed designation of hen harrier SPAs.

I represent farmers and landowners who live in the proposed SPAs and who want to have the option of planting some or all of their land either now or in the future. I am a farmer and I own 100 acres of marginal land which I believe will fall within the boundaries of the proposed SPA and, if Dúchas has its way, which will be designated as an SPA in approximately one month.

The SPAs will have to be introduced. One of the most critical aspects of Natura 2000 - the birds and habitats directive - is that land can only be designated by Dúchas as an SPA based on scientific criteria and scientific information. Once it has been designated, it can only be extracted from the SPA on scientific grounds. Article 2 of the birds directive provides that member states are required to maintain the population of naturally occurring wild birds "at a level which corresponds in particular to ecological, scientific and cultural requirements, while taking account of economic and recreational requirements, or to adapt the population of these species to that level". Dúchas is refusing to acknowledge or implement this part of the directive. It is operating illegally in this respect.

If Dúchas wishes to designate vast tracts of land, there is a legal burden of proof on it to prove scientifically that what it is doing is necessary. Natura 2000 states that the sites proposed by member states must be based on scientific criteria and scientific evidence. We have not seen satisfactory scientific evidence from Dúchas. The extent of the SPAs is frightening, with more than 500,000 acres involved. If Dúchas wishes to designate this vast area for 100 or 130 breeding pairs, it must prove the scientific need for it.

Once the SPAs are published, they have legal status. When this happens, the burden of proof in terms of an area being an SPA changes from Dúchas to the farmer proving it should not be an SPA. This is ridiculous considering that, in the first instance, Dúchas has not proven that the area should be an SPA. If we take it a step further and go into the directive, once the areas are designated, Dúchas has a legal obligation under Natura 2000 to identify what are called "potentially damaging plans", which could be forestry, wind farming, cutting or spraying rushes and so on. Once identified, Dúchas will require these plans to be assessed. These plans can only be allowed if they represent an overriding interest or if no other alternative exists. Translated, we believe this means that forestry, wind farming, rural one-off houses and traditional farming practices, such as cutting and spraying rushes and land reclamation, will be disallowed in the SPA. Dúchas may request an EIA for any of these activities and may turn it down unless the farmer can prove his plan has an overriding national interest.

Farmers should not have to prove that their land should not be an SPA. It is up to Dúchas to provide that lands should be so designated. In the absence of such proof, Dúchas is not legally entitled to designate land as an SPA. It is very worrying that Dúchas intends to publish these SPAs within a month and not later than June, according to an individual from Dúchas last week. Once this is done, the SPAs will have legal protection and if Dúchas views forestry, wind farming, sowing fields or cutting or spraying rushes as potentially damaging, it will then be legally entitled to advise the regulatory bodies not to grant approval in the case of forestry and wind farming and to pivot other activities by way of notifiable actions.

Margot Wallstrom, Commissioner for the Environment, said that management of these SPAs is essential for their conservation, but to be successful it first requires the active involvement of the people who live in and depend upon these areas. Dúchas would do well to heed the advice of the commissioner.

Consultation is one of the significant issues and Dúchas has simply refused to engage in genuine consultation with the people and the communities in the areas it intends to devastate with this designation. Dúchas is so arrogant that it refuses to engage in consultation. It has even refused to tell landowners what will or will not be allowed within the SPAs. Dúchas says it has not decided yet. Is this consultation?

As the joint committee may be aware, I posed 67 questions to Dúchas on 24 February. To date I have not received one answer. Is that consultation? Dúchas intends to inform landowners that it is considering designating their land as SPAs by publishing the townland in the local newspaper, at which time their land is then a proposed SPA with all the restrictions, rules and regulations that accompany formal legal designation. Is this consultation?

I met Dúchas last Friday and asked if it would sit down and talk with us. I asked that it delay publishing the maps of the area. Dúchas said it could not because if it did not have maps, it would not have anything to talk about. I then proposed that it publish indicative maps which would not have legal status. It refused, saying that was how it did the NHAs and SACs. Is that consultation? The effects of designation if Dúchas is allowed do so, will be as follows: the option to diversify into farming or forestry and wind farming will be disallowed; traditional and essential farming practices such as cutting and spraying rushes, ploughing, etc., will be disallowed; options to sell and develop rural sites will be disallowed; and farmers and landowners will live at the whim of Dúchas officials.

The only definite and indisputable effect of Dúchas's current plan is that there will be a huge cost in trying to protect the hen harrier. We are a civilised and democratic society and it is unfair and unjust to suggest that one sector should carry the entire cost of protecting the harrier. This is what is at the core of the issue and this is the reason people in the proposed SPAs are so upset and angered. If Irish people wish to protect the hen harrier, they must be prepared to pay the cost of protecting it.

Dúchas does not intend to compensate farmers for the loss of income or the loss of the value of their land. This is totally unacceptable, unfair and unjust. Conservative estimates indicate that the loss of land value would be of the order of €750 million, with somewhere between €25 million and €50 million of an annual loss due to restrictions in farming practice. At one stage, Dúchas suggested there were fines of €20,000 per day. We could pay those fines for 100 years and it would be still less expensive than the cost which Dúchas is seeking to impose on farmers.

It said that we must accept our land being devalued by 75%, our incomes being reduced and not seek to be compensated. This is preposterous and unacceptable. Farming in this area is a tough business and people are struggling to survive. The recent IFA incomes study is relevant and shows the average farming income is €15,000, the average industrial income is €26,000 and the average civil service income is €37,000. The only consolation for farmers is that their land is worth money, but Dúchas now wishes to take this from us. It basically wants to take away our means of making a living. We will not and cannot allow this to happen. This is a tyrannical organisation that seems intent on turning rural Ireland into a desolate wilderness bereft of people. It is an organisation whose actions, if left unchecked, run the risk of ruining communities and impoverishing the people who live there.

We believe that the rural Deputies whom we elected to represent us will see the blatant injustice of this, will reassert control over Dúchas and order it not to publish the maps so that proper consultation can take place. It will take a strong public statement from this committee - statements from Dúchas are of no value - to prevent this from escalating with dire consequences. We and the members know the ordinary, hardworking, decent people who elected them. There is a limit to people's patience. Great credit is due to these people for the restraint they have shown, but their patience is running out. People believe that Dúchas will bring in this regulation without consultation and they are grossly aware of the consequences.

A public meeting has been planned for next week and we must return and tell the people who will attend it the views of the environment committee on our situation and on Dúchas's situation. The news must be good for us to bring back to that meeting.

Dúchas may think that farmers in these areas are fools, but we do not think so. The sense of injustice is palpable. If this committee lets Dúchas proceed with publishing these areas without consultation and compensation, what do members think will happen? What choice will people feel they have left?

Mr. O’Flynn

Mr. Jerry Gunning will make a final presentation on the broad perspective of the IFA on this matter.

Mr. Jerry Gunning

The issue of environmental designations has been with us for some time. I am aware that in the county from which the Chairman comes there are designated bogs and in the Shannon area there are the Shannon Callows. There are mountain areas, blanket bog areas and, more recently, there has been the issue of the hen harrier. The designation of the habitat of the hen harrier is different from anything else because the areas have not yet been proposed, but the restrictions apply. This is a serious situation. We have not seen this happen previously in regard to the circumstances of any other designations.

With regard to designations in general, when the then Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Michael Higgins, introduced the EU labitats directive, he said that 5% of the country would be designated. Nearly 11% of the country has been now designated and there is no indication from the Minister whether the designation process will stop at that. Every other day lists appear in local newspapers. The placing of such an advertisement in a newspaper is the degree of consultation engaged in by Dúchas. The townland is named, but the farmer does not know whether that area includes his land. The onus is on the farmer to find that out. The onus is also on the farmer to find out why an area is being designated and the science behind such a designation. A farmer can appeal such a designation, but he must have the scientific evidence to back his appeal. All of the onus lies with the farmer.

Mr. Cotter referred to a number of European reports on this issue. One of the recently published European reports on the financing of Natura 2000 set down the procedures that should be put in place and one of the critical issues is consultation. In our view, consultation should be in the form of one-to-one consultation with the individual landowner and not of a general nature or by way of advertisements in newspapers. The onus is on the individual to talk to Dúchas rather than on Dúchas to talk to the individual. There is a major flaw in the procedures.

Mr. Con Hickey pointed out that we have set down this in a proposal to Government in the context of IFA proposals to redress flaws in the implementation of the EU habitats directive. It would be appropriate at some future date for us to have an opportunity to discuss the wider perspective, but today we are dealing with the designation of the habitat of the hen harrier. We have set out our proposals in our document. We ask this committee to instruct Dúchas to carry out a more scientific evaluation of an area to determine whether the area should be designated. This information should be publicly given to farmers and landowners to enable them have an opportunity to respond and they should also be consulted.

In the event of designations proceeding and the question of developments being allowed, we have suggested that, for example, in the case of forestry a plan should be developed for an area based upon a post clear fell in respect of the ten to 12-year maturity of forestry because that is the environment the hen harrier likes. However, with the co-operation of forest service companies, etc., I am sure that a habitat can be created for the hen harrier to survive while also allowing forestry to survive.

The siting, location and size of wind turbines are important factors in allowing wind farming to proceed while also having regard to protecting the habitat of the hen harrier. They are clear proposals from the IFA. We would like the committee to take them on board and to bring them to the attention of the Minister.

Chairman

With regard to the suggestion that the committee should instruct Dúchas to take a particular action, I wish to clarify that it is not within our powers to instruct Dúchas to take any action. That is a matter for the Minister and the Department. We are giving the representatives an opportunity to put forward their case in the same way that we gave Dúchas that opportunity some weeks ago. We are here to listen to what they have to tell us.

Mr. Gunning

A point was made about the democratic process and that politicians are elected by the people. Members have a responsibility to their constituents. Many of the Deputies' constituents are unhappy about the process. People are not happy with the procedures being followed in respect of designations. I accept the point the Chairman made, but the members must take on board the issues their constituents have raised with them. There have been large gatherings at meetings. At the one in Templeglantine, there were about 1,200 adults——

Chairman

There is no point in us going into that. There are certain rules and regulations under which committees operate. I am merely pointing out the existing powers. There is no point in our sending the representatives away with a false impression. I have given them the facts and the restrictions under which we must operate.

Mr. O’Flynn

Can the Chairman impress our views upon the Minister?

Chairman

Have members of your delegation finished their contributions or does someone else wish to contribute?

Mr. O’Flynn

Mr. J. J. Nolan wanted to——

Chairman

If members of your delegation would make their contributions, I will call on members of the committee to respond to them and they may have questions to put to them.

Mr. O’Flynn

The members of my delegation have finished their contributions. I thank Senators Bannon and Finucane and Deputies Cregan, Murphy, Moynihan, Collins, Ferris and Neville for agreeing to listen to us. We will answer any questions put to us. These issues affect us in more ways than I believe the Chairman or any of the members can understand. If Dúchas rules come in the form presented they will decimate our area in west Limerick-north Cork.

Chairman

I should offer apologises on behalf of Senator Finucane who has had to leave to take up the position of Acting Chairman in the Seanad. Another gentleman expressed a wish to say a few words. He might give his credentials.

Mr. Tom Herlihy

I represent Kerry IFA and I am also in the process of developing a wind farm with two co-operative companies. We have run into many problems with Dúchas. Most of southern Kerry is already designated as an SAC. It is envisaged that much of north Kerry, particularly the Stacks Mountains area, will be designated as an SPA. Kerry will then have more designated areas than any other county; the southern part of the county will be a national heritage area, while the northern part will more or less be a bird sanctuary. Kerry people are a very proud race and we do not take kindly to being told what to do. The landscape of the Stacks Mountains, which is a vast territory, has already been blighted by a massive council dump that the Department of the Environment and Local Government touted as being one of the best in the country. I live in close proximity to that dump, which is 1,000 ft. above sea level, and my land and livelihood have been badly blighted by its ongoing effects. The area could never be developed for tourism on account of the odours emanating from the dump. I could not put a hill walk through my land for the same reason, but I have an ideal location for wind farming because of the elevation.

Last march, after Kerry County Council brought out its wind farm policy, most of the co-operatives in our area became involved. We drew up plans and are now in the process of submitting them for planning permission. Suddenly however, we heard about the hen harriers. I have been living in the area for 50 years and I never heard of that kind of bird. I know what it is now, but I do not think that is its real name. Recently, on Radio Kerry, a wildlife expert said that hen harrier is not the bird's real name; it was called that only because it was harrying hens and carrying off chicks.

We undertook a lot of research into this and brought out a document. On the front cover we printed the words "Let's be friends". We want to be friends with the hen harrier and we have no problem with that bird which has cohabited with us for years. There is no proof that wind farming is detrimental to hen harriers. I live within four kilometres of a wind farm and I have seen the hen harriers flying through those turbines. Dúchas says the onus is on me as a developer to prove that what I develop will not affect the hen harriers. However, when the council put a dump alongside my land there was no onus on it to prove that what it was doing would adversely affect me, so why switch the onus on to the developer now?

Dúchas recently made a submission to Kerry County Council in which it said the reason it would not be in favour of any further plantations in that area is that, at present, 80% of the available land has already been planted, as can be seen from the figures. This is inaccurate, however, because seven out of every ten acres in this area have not been developed. According to Dúchas the total area planted was 80% but according to Coillte it is 30.67%. That is a glaring discrepancy. I find it difficult to accept anything from an organisation that cannot get its facts more accurate than that.

There is a requirement on those who wish to develop wind farms to produce scientific proof that such developments will not have any adverse effect on hen harriers. How can such scientific proof be produced, however, until the wind turbines are erected? That is only common sense. In the Stacks Mountains area of north Kerry, the species under greatest threat is human beings and the falling school enrolment figures bear that out. The committee should be left in no doubt that local people feel isolated and hurt because after toiling on those hillsides for centuries to educate their families and improve their lot, now that there is an alternative when farm incomes are on the floor, a body such as Dúchas can shoot down their plans for wind farms.

I feel hard done by. I started farming at 11 years of age when my father was killed. I have toiled on that soil since then to try to educate my family. Now when I have one chance to provide something for my retirement, Dúchas comes along to snatch it from me without any regard to me or to future generations. I do not want to be left in that area for the rest of my life as a glorified game keeper.

Chairman

We will now move on to members' contributions.

Deputy Cregan

The purpose of the exercise was for the delegation to present its views. We have been over this ground before and all the points mentioned by the group were raised on its behalf when we met with representatives of Dúchas on a previous occasion. We will be taking an opportunity to raise them also with the Minister this afternoon. I would like to reinforce two valuable points that Mr. Gunning made. He mentioned the one-to-one consultation being instigated by Dúchas and it is vital that this should happen. Mr. Gunning also said that restrictions were in place, despite the fact that designations are not in place. That is causing serious problems for many people, particularly in the planning area.

I thank the group members for having expressed their views. I assure them of my full and unequivocal support in fighting this cause to the bitter end.

Deputy Collins

I endorse what Deputy Cregan said and I thank those who made the presentation. I also wish to acknowledge the fact that Mr. Canny from Dúchas is present. I appreciate the fact that he came to listen to the presentation, although we discussed all these points at the meeting we had with representatives of Dúchas. I found it strange that when Mr. Cotter asked Dúchas to negotiate, it said that the maps would have to be published. However, we were told - I presume the record can prove this ^ that there would be indicative maps, which would go to the Minister who would make a decision. There are many things that we will have to iron out with the Minister. I think Dúchas has too much power and, irrespective of what parties were involved, the politicians granted it that power.

Mr. Herlihy, whom we have just heard, toiled all his life in an area that I know well - I come from only a few miles away. It is not right that these people, after all the years spent working, should have to face such concerns. We will have to have a serious discussion with the Minister, who may have to take away some of the powers that Dúchas currently enjoys. Alternatively, Dúchas will have to be abolished altogether. It is a difficult thing to say, but I would be in favour of that because of what I and the other elected representatives saw at the Templeglantine meeting a few weeks ago. Some 800 people were present to express their worries about the future. Together with other public representatives, we will give those people our full support to try to allay their fears.

Deputy M. Moynihan

I welcome the members of the delegation who have put their case to the committee. I have discussed these arguments with several of the people concerned and have travelled over the terrain inch by inch in north Cork in connection with the hen harrier issue. One key question is whether people should come before hen harriers or vice versa. The week after St. Patrick's Day, an article in The Corkman and The Kerryman newspapers jokingly put it that if St. Patrick was to remove snakes from the country today he would have to seek the approval of Dúchas, the European Court of Justice and so on. A cartoon with a similar message appeared in The Farmer's Journal at the same time. We are concerned with preserving people's livelihoods. For example, Tom Herlihy's opportunity to set up a pension plan connected to wind farms is in doubt, yet no scientific evidence has been produced that the hen harrier is affecting wind farms and preventing their development.

A new directive will be implemented and further consultation will be required. However, we need to establish priorities. While vast areas of the countryside can be closed - we have seen the effects of afforestation - we must be clear if we are to put the livelihood of the hen harrier before those generations of people who have worked the land.

Questions affecting traditional farming methods, wind farming and afforestation must be addressed. Despite all the information the committee has received from various bodies, I see no scientific evidence that wind farms are detrimental to the hen harrier. I remain to be convinced of that. The hen harrier is surviving in areas with a high density of afforestation, indeed they have moved to areas of afforestation and are surviving in areas without designation. Traditional forms of farm income are under ferocious pressure. This will be another nail in the coffin of farming. It has been advised that rushes cannot be sprayed in these areas, which I know well. I do not understand the scientific basis for that.

Dúchas officials provided information to this committee which has been contradicted by the information given by other Dúchas officials to people on the ground, who have been told that planning permission would be required to plough and drain a field. The committee was told this would not be necessary and that traditional farming methods are compatible with the EU directive. While we need consultation, we also need clear guidelines. Without that we are at a loss on the best way to proceed and must rely on unreliable information or even misinformation. I support the endeavours made by the committee because it is vital we get this issue right, not only for the regions in the Cork, Kerry and Limerick borders, but also in other parts of the country.

Deputy Murphy

We are concerned with the effect of SPAs on commercial farming, wind farms and forestry. There are enormous implications in this approach. At present, there is utter confusion because Dúchas issued indicative maps, especially to the planning authorities and the forestry service, indicating that the areas outlined were potential areas for SPAs. Whether Dúchas meant this or not, forestry service officials and local authority planners are interpreting this as a done deal for all intents and purposes. This means that there are delays with forestry projects and wind farms.

At our last meeting, Mr. Kenny stressed that no formal designation had been made and indicated that when the scientific valuation was to be completed the Minister would decide on what would be proposed. In the House yesterday, the Minister accepted such confusion exists. He referred to the recent issue regarding the hen harrier in the south-west. He went on to advise that, as the responsible Minister, he regretted that the communication system in place is not adequate to make clear the fact that we have only entered into a consultation process. He went on to say that incorrect presumptions were made as to the impact of these and he expressed confidence that there will be compatibility between wind energy, afforestation and preservation areas. The Minister admitted in the Dáil yesterday that the interpretation of the Dúchas directions by the forestry service and the planning authorities were regrettable and, to a certain extent, misleading.

A number of issues require speedy clarification. Do these areas acquire legal identity on the publication of the maps or are these merely provisional maps until the consultation process has been completed? Is it then that the Minister decides on the areas that will be included for SPAs?

The compensation issue is important for the entire country. I appreciate the Minster for the Environment and Local Government is dealing with the environmental issues while another Minister has responsibility for AER6. Will the Government consider extending the time limit for AER6? Current planning applications are being delayed because of inaction by Dúchas or uncertainty by planning authorities as to what they should do. If those involved lose out because of delays with AER6, it is possible that it will be another two years before their inclusion in the programme.

The question of how the forestry service will interpret Dúchas directions needs to be clarified. If farmers want to plant relatively small areas of forestry on their land, the conditions imposed on them by the forestry service may be so onerous as to make such projects unviable.

We have been told several times that the only compensation envisaged for commercial farming is the REP scheme plus the top-up. The representatives at this meeting have made it clear that we are not concerned with that type of compensation for farmers, which is fine for those farmers who take that route. However, it is not effective for those farmers who want to continue in farming and who want do develop their properties.

The question of farm and land values must be addressed. If it is inserted on to a title that the area is an SPA, it will be readily understood that the land will be devalued. While the SPA area will probably continue indefinitely into the future, there is no guarantee that the compensation measures will. We have much work to do in this area and I am pleased we will be meeting the Minister because he has been supportive in his approach.

Deputy Neville

I also want to voice my support for our visitors and welcome them. I am not a member of this committee, but I have a deep interest in the area because of the proximity and my own constituency's concern in the area.

At the last meeting we had with Dúchas, it agreed to clarify the position on planning permission and to write to the committee. I put a question to it on the planning permission issue and Deputy Collins backed it up with experience in Doon, County Limerick. Dúchas at that stage agreed to report back to the committee on that. Did it do so?

Chairman

We have not received correspondence from it on that matter.

Deputy Ferris

I congratulate everybody concerned on the presentation. I fully support our visitors' efforts to maintain their livelihood for both themselves and their families in the areas in which they live. It is ironic that the areas most affected are disadvantaged. When one looks at the struggle of people to survive in those areas and at trying to find an alternative decent income, which would probably be in afforestation as well as in wind farming, one finds that these could be taken away from them also by the designation of areas for the hen harrier. It is easy for people to make decisions when their livelihoods and the survival of themselves and their families are in direct conflict with the survival of the hen harriers.

It is a worry that, to date, there does not appear to be the consultation necessary to resolve the growing concern. The point was made by one of the speakers about individual consultation between Dúchas and the farmer. If there is any sense of fair play here, consultation should be entered into immediately because it is of enormous importance for everybody concerned.

Privately, I asked a person in Dúchas about the scientific evidence and was told it is evidence of the eye. Effectively, what one sees today in one place may not be there tomorrow and could be in some other area. One is talking about a bird that moves. There needs to be an opportunity, where necessary, to rebut or challenge that scientific evidence and that is where consultation at the outset comes into it.

It is encouraging to hear some of the commentary and that the Minister is very supportive of the farmers in their struggle. The hold up in getting planning permission for wind farms and other purposes because of the uncertainty involved needs to be cleared up immediately.

I fully support the IFA proposals to instruct Dúchas to carry out a more scientific evaluation of the areas to determine whether they should be designated, but one cannot designate areas until one carries out that consultation on an individual basis. It is incumbent on Dúchas, in restoring its credibility and the work it does in various rural areas, to enter into individual consultation. It will otherwise further erode the declining support for it in rural areas. This should be taken on board by Mr. Canny and filtered back into the Dúchas organisation.

The group has a battle ahead and I fully support it in its efforts. I was at the meeting in Templeglantine and there were further meetings. There was a meeting previously in Kielduff and there were two meetings since in Brosna. It is a massive issue in disadvantaged areas and that cannot be lost in the political spectrum. This is about the survival of areas, the populations of which have declined by 50%. All of that must be factored into the equation. Are we serious about preserving the fabric of those areas or are we going to let them go down the Swanee? It is quite simple for me. I, and the people with whom I work and am associated are fully behind the group in its campaign.

Deputy Healy-Rae

The Minister for the Environment and Local Government, in a reply to a parliamentary question on 4 February last, admitted that studies are ongoing into the effect of wind farm development on hen harriers. He went on to state that there are no known consequences for hen harriers from wind farms at this stage. Hen harriers, he said, hunt below the minimum height of turbine rotary blades and, therefore, the potential for impact is considered negligible. Those are strong words from the Minister. It clearly puts beyond all doubt any danger to the hen harrier from wind turbines. That statement from the Minister should be clearly explained to local authorities and people who are dealing with planning applications for wind turbines. I propose that a note be sent to the local planning offices in the counties involved outlining the Minister's significant statement to that effect. The Minister clearly stated that there was no problem posed to the hen harrier hunting below the level of the rotary blades. We are only talking pure nonsense by saying there is a danger to the hen harrier.

Senator Brennan

I fully support the views expressed by my colleagues and the views of, and the genuine concerns expressed from the heart by, the deputation. It is imperative that the offer of goodwill and of working together should be taken up by Dúchas and by the Minister.

I fully support Deputy Collins as regards the indicative maps which were mentioned here on the last occasion. For planning purposes, the onus should be on Dúchas to come up with the scientific evidence where they wish to dispute a planning application. The local authorities are obliged to show what areas are suitable for wind energy and forestry. There is an obligation on the local authorities to designate those areas in the same way as they designate a town boundary area or an area for a national primary route when they undertake town plans. That is an important issue in the context of compensation and it is a matter which also should be taken up. I hope the Minister will adopt a common sense approach and meet the needs of the people.

Chairman

That brings our discussion to a conclusion. I thank the members of the delegation for their contributions. We can all identify with the difficulties they expressed. It is obviously a matter which we will monitor and deal with again in the near future. I also thank members for their contributions to this informative debate.

Mr. O’Flynn

Will the joint committee make recommendations to the Minister?

Chairman

Some members have indicated that arrangements have been made to meet with the Minister.

Mr. O’Flynn

I know. We are meeting with the Minister after that.

Chairman

The normal practice is that we receive requests from groups to come in and speak to us and we give them that opportunity without making any commitment. It is up to the committee to decide how we will proceed from here. We will not be giving our guests any commitment.

Deputy Collins

Some of us have made representations.

Chairman

Members are entitled to do that, but we cannot do it as a committee.

Deputy Collins

I just wanted to let Mr. O'Flynn know that we have made strong representations to the Minister.

Mr. O’Flynn

I hope the committee will make the recommendations that we have put forward today. It is vital for people living in our areas that the committee impresses on the Minister that Dúchas cannot implement these draconian measures.

Chairman

I thank the witnesses for attending. If we did not think the matter was important, we would not have given them the opportunity to speak today. Their contributions have been a great help.

The committee would like to express its sympathy to Deputy Grealish, a member of the committee, on the death of his brother at the weekend.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.15 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 16 April 2003.