I formally welcome our visitors representing the Hungarian Parliament's committee on municipalities. From informal talks over lunch, I already know the delegation's visit has been interesting and I hope it is fruitful. I propose to call on the leader of the delegation to make a presentation. We will then call on Members to ask questions. Perhaps Mr. Gulyas might begin by introducing members of the delegation.
Visit of Hungarian Parliamentary Delegation.
Mr. Jozsef Gulyas
Mr. Chairman, distinguished members, I thank you for receiving us and for the opportunity to visit. I want to first introduce the members of my delegation. This delegation represents all four parties from the Hungarian National Assembly. On my immediate right is Mr. Zsolt Németh, from MDF, the Hungarian Democratic Forum, who is mayor of Vosvara. On his right is Mr. Imre Tóth from the Hungarian Young Democrats Forum and also a mayor. On my immediate left is Mr. Gyula from the Hungarian Socialist Party. He used to work in the Hungarian municipality administrative system and therefore has experience of these matters. I am Mr. Joszef Gulyas from the Free Democrats Alliance in Hungary and am chairman of the committee on municipalities. I represent Pest county in Hungary.
As mentioned previously, we initiated this professional exchange and would like to offer the committee specific information on the Hungarian municipality situation. We will meet with other Departments here later in our professional programme. We would like to hear your experiences and to draw on them in the process of restructuring our system. We are interested in the Irish experience of municipalities and restoration. We are interested in learning how the system is set up here and how Ireland accesses EU funds for regional development and the development of certain municipal areas. We are also interested in Ireland in general terms.
Before EU accession we are interested in finding out to what extent Hungary is prepared from the municipality structure point of view for its accession and to what extent we are prepared for drawing on EU funds. As an independent issue we plan the restructuring of the Hungarian municipality system. At the time of the political change of the regime in 1990, our municipality system was given full autonomy. Now, after 14 years we see there are problems with the system.
We have more than 3,200 municipalities, the majority of which serve settlements with a population of less than 1,500. The major problem with these small settlements is the provision of small services such as kindergartens, schooling and general health and social care. For traditional reasons, Hungarian settlements - even if very small with only 500 to 600 people - would like to maintain their own schools. However, it appears this task cannot be carried out from a funding point of view. This is why a new issue has been put on the agenda - the integration of small regions on a voluntary basis in order to create larger unions. The legislature in Hungary is not discussing the issue of the formation of small regions.
We are interested in hearing the committee's questions. We are also interested in hearing the experiences of the members. We would like to know whether committee members think the Irish municipal structure is stabilised or whether there are any development areas on which Ireland will focus.
Thank you.
I apologise but I have to leave for another meeting at 2.30 p.m.
On behalf of Fine Gael I welcome the delegation here. I have visited Hungary on many occasions and found the people friendly and very interested in Ireland. As general secretary of the Local Authority Members' Association, the body which represents local authorities throughout this island, I had the honour of addressing a number of conferences in Europe and in the applicant states last year. In Prague I got a great insight into how the applicant countries are preparing for full membership of the European Union.
I am interested particularly in the participation of young people in government, especially local government, in the applicant states, including Hungary. Perhaps the delegation can give us an insight into what attracts young people into politics in Hungary. This interest is on the decline in western countries, particularly Ireland.
On behalf of the Green Party I welcome the Hungarian delegation. Hungary has a strong position going into the Union through its emphasis on subsidiarity and local decision making. It is unusual for us to hear about the problem of municipalities of 1,000 or 1,500 people and the effort to get together to create facilities such as schools. Our problem here has been that we are over-centralised. We need to learn from Hungary about municipalities which have their own decision making and fund raising powers. I think Hungary is in quite a strong position as it enters the Union.
Would the delegation like to respond?
Mr. Gulyas
With regard to young people, we think it is primarily the younger generation which believes EU accession will bring benefits for them. The overall expectation in Hungary is that accession is in the joint interest of both Hungary and the EU. It is primarily the younger generation that is in a position to benefit from EU accession, based upon younger people's language skills, career paths etc. For this reason there is an overall reform procedure in senior education in Hungary, ensuring that the curriculum is similar and compatible with that of European countries and that it will serve future career requirements.
We recognise that autonomy is an important value. Our structure was based on the city council scheme, which is basically the Soviet model, but in 1990 we introduced full autonomy. This situation resulted in some absurd phenomena, as already mentioned. In the constituency represented by Mr. Nemeth, on my immediate right, there is a settlement with only 18 citizens. Not only does it have a mayor, but also a deputy mayor.
For historical reasons, these small villages also insist upon maintaining their own schools. They also expect the state to provide funding. However, we believe that from both the financial and professional education point of view this is not beneficial. On one hand it is expensive to offer schools to each of these settlements and, on the other, when the same teacher teaches the age group six to ten, the first four grades of elementary school, over a period, it is not beneficial from the educational point of view.
Hungarian demographics show a decrease and therefore the number of children attending kindergarten and elementary school is also decreasing. Owing to this and to the centralisation of industrialised restructuring in Hungary, many of the settlements have become almost totally vacant. Therefore, one of our most exciting reform challenges is the provision of autonomy to these settlements in a financially rational and professional manner.
Mr. Imre Toth
I am happy to be here. We also believe that after EU accession, the significance of the national parliament must decrease. This is why local municipalities must have a stable base and structure. As Ireland has preceded us, it has some years' advantage. I would like to pose three questions concerning specific issues.
With regard to Irish public administration, we realise there are 25 constituent authorities. However, they do not have the right to levy taxes upon business entities and they are also funded by the county councils. Does this cause any internal dispute and does the committee think that it interferes with the internal autonomy of settlements? We also realise that in certain cases decentralisation is from the bottom up. In other words, initiatives are made at a lower level before being implemented at central level.
Currently, Hungarian public administration is highly decentralised. Nevertheless we would like to strike a fine balance. What recommendations does this committee have for us? I read in one study that health care services were removed from the scope of authority of the regional government. In our case municipalities are the owners of health care institutions and they can also operate hospitals. County level municipalities typically operate hospitals. With regard to health care institutions, what is Ireland's experience of the removal of the scope of authority from the municipal sector?
Mr. Zsolt Nemeth
I would like to add some comments to the initial statements of Mr. Gulyas . There are many anomalies in the Hungarian situation. In the case of very small villages, Hungary may sometimes be seen as a comedy of a democracy. Nevertheless, no political party or player in the Hungarian political arena has ever questioned the need for local municipalities in our 3,200 settlements and all of them maintain a mayor and a deputy mayor.
This does not cost too much as only the mayor - no other officials of the municipality - receives any payment. In the case of almost 2,000 settlements in Hungary, the officers and employees of the public municipality work for free. Basically we operate an efficient system. Nevertheless, problems arise when settlements have to work together and when ten or 20 different settlements have to make joint decisions. To give an example, in one of the smaller regions they may operate the vocational training scheme or an arts school which would cover more than just the settlement. However, the operating costs are borne only by the settlement which provides for the housing. This problem also comes up with health care or public administration issues.
My question concerns Ireland's public authority or municipality system. How efficient is it? Who operates these institutions and what is the scope of their authority? How many areas do they cover?
I join in the words of welcome to the delegation. The system of local government in Ireland is very weak, probably one of the weakest in Europe. There are three historical reasons for it. First, our system of local government has been inherited from the 19th century, when we were ruled by the British, and it has not been significantly changed since. Second, local government here has traditionally not involved itself in the type of areas in which local government normally involves itself in other countries, such as education and large parts of the health services. That is partly due to the fact that schools and hospitals have been owned and managed over the years by religious organisations mainly.
The third reason, with which some of my colleagues may disagree, is that for most of the period since independence one political party has dominated politics and has been unwilling to release political power from the centre. Regarding the specific answer to the question about who runs the local administrations, for most practical purposes the local authorities in Ireland are run by city and county managers who are appointed and whose accountability to the elected local authorities is very tenuous.
The delegation mentioned the health services area. Health services were removed from local authorities in 1970 and regional health boards were established. The Government currently has a plan effectively to abolish the health boards and centralise much of the health administration.
One of the delegates said he thought Hungary's national parliament would decline in power following the country's accession to the European Union. That does not necessarily have to happen. One of the issues we have been debating, particularly in recent years, is the importance of the national parliament in scrutinising European legislation. We made a law recently that all proposals for European legislation must be brought before the appropriate parliamentary committee before Ministers commit to a position at meetings of the European Council. While much legislation will be initiated in the European institutions, the national parliament is still critical in making that link between the making of European law and the involvement of the citizens in the making of that law.
I, too, welcome the delegation in a very special way. I do not know anything about Hungary and would like to inquire about certain matters. Is there very extensive farming in Hungary? Do farmers there deal in cattle, sheep and pigs?
I would like to deal with environmental issues for a moment and ask the delegates what type of road structures are in place in Hungary. Perhaps one of these gentlemen has either driven or fallen into a pothole while in Ireland. Would they have experienced something like it in Hungary? If I were in Hungary tomorrow, would I have a problem getting planning permission to build a house?
Are there any smokers among the delegates? If so, what do they think of the ban on smoking here? Would they be in favour of a similar ban in Hungary?
I should make it clear to the delegation that this is what we would call a cryptic request to be included in the visiting delegation to Hungary in the near future.
I also welcome my colleagues from the parliament of Hungary.
It is interesting to look at the make-up of the Government in Hungary. It is a coalition Government comprising the Socialist Party, which seems to be the majority party, and the Alliance of Free Democrats, a name familiar to my own little party, which is in Government here with Fianna Fáil. I see that the Alliance of Free Democrats holds four Cabinet seats, and we also have four Ministers in Government, so there is much similarity between us. Are there any members of the Alliance of Free Democrats on the delegation?
Mr. Gulyas
I am from the Alliance of Free Democrats.
Is Mr. Gulyas also the Vice-Chairman of the committee?
Mr. Gulyas
Yes, I am the Vice-Chairman of the committee.
I am delighted to see Mr. Gulyas getting on well. I have not got that far yet on this committee.
He did not do too badly at all.
It is interesting to listen to the delegation describe Hungary's local authority structure compared to ours. Is there much central government involvement in local decisions? What kinds of decisions can local councillors make? One of the functions of the local elected member here is to make development or waste management plans. Here, however, there seems to be too much central Government involvement in local decisions.
What kind of executive powers or functions exist within local authorities in Hungary? Here we have a director of services, with the manager and a team underneath him making most of the decisions.
I too welcome the delegation and wish them every success with their accession into the EU. I know all the accession countries have put in a huge amount of work in the past couple of years and I hope it will bear fruit.
We too had problems with regionalisation when, for funding reasons, we had to regionalise. As the delegates know, we have two regions and eight regional authorities. However, over time local authorities from regions adjacent to each other have proven hugely successful in working together, particularly in the drawing down of funds and putting together legislation and proposals for regulations. It has taken time, and it will take time in Hungary.
I would not like the impression to be given that because a certain party is in Government for a longer period of time than other parties, cross-party co-operation has not taken place. It has taken pace both at national and local level, but particularly at local authority level. My experience is that many of the political parties do work hand in hand at local authority level.
On the questions raised about the areas of responsibility of local authorities, there are various different arms of local administration and we have, for instance, vocational education committees, usually made up of local councillors and public representatives. We have the health boards, but given that we do have problems in our health service that whole area is being looked at and a debate is on-going. I wish the delegation every success, and we look forward to seeing it back here, one hopes, on 1 May.
I too offer a special welcome to our friends from Hungary and congratulate them on what they have achieved in transforming their country. I wish them well as a new member of the EU.
Local government has served this country well over the past 100 years. At local level politics is less prominent, with members of different parties working together for the good of the local areas. Rather than national roads and infrastructure, local roads, waste management, local authority housing, library services and fire services are part of our work.
Each county has area committees also. In my county we have five area committees, which meet monthly. The regional authority level worked well for Ireland when it became a member of the EU in drawing down EU funds, and it was used to distribute the money in a fair fashion throughout the country. We look forward to working with the delegates in the years ahead.
I notice that the delegation is male dominated. This committee is also male dominated so maybe I am the last one who should be speaking on this, but I would like to ask about gender balance and the percentage of women involved in politics in Hungary, whether at national, local or regional level. In recent times we have put in place equality legislation. Is Hungary moving in that direction?
Local government here is the machinery through which important services are provided. Delivery at local government level operates within eight different programmes. Planning is very important, as Deputy Healy-Rae has said. We have major involvement in the area of housing at county level, and in environmental services. National politicians have tended over the years to blame local government for not taking decisions at local level, and legislation was introduced by the national Parliament to erode the powers of local elected representatives. Thus, if any of the delegates are in positions of responsibility at local level, my advice to them is that it is important to take action and give leadership.
I am very conscious that the delegation has a meeting with the Ceann Comhairle in ten minutes. The delegates might like to give a brief reply to some of the comments or questions raised.
Mr. Gulyas
We do not have former Ministers in the delegation. We might become Ministers, just as some of the committee members might become Ministers in the future also. A more exciting issue is the role of women in politics. At the change of the political regime, all the political parties were in favour of involving as many women as possible in politics. However, the commitment of political parties will not be sufficient. It takes the willingness of women to be part of politics as well.
We have a political party which is chaired by a woman. This happens to be the Hungarian Democratic Forum. The Speaker of the House in Hungary, Dr. Katalin Szili, is also a woman. Hungarian women are increasingly successful in public administration and political roles as well.
The Hungarian Government has prepared a very serious programme to develop the public road infrastructure, primarily focusing on highways and motorways. Of the EU accession countries, Hungary will be one of the most developed as far as public road infrastructure is concerned. The downside is that due to developing motorways, we will have less money left for secondary road developments. Developing road infrastructure other than motorways will be the task for us in the coming few years.
We have talked about regions and the fair distribution of funds between regions. In our case this is a very serious issue because in many cases municipalities, settlements or even larger regions believe that they must compete with each other. In many cases joint or common projects are sacrificed for reasons of partial interest. Therefore there are a few advantages to the centralised system which operates in Ireland, namely central Government taking actions and responsibility for channelling the funds. I still believe that the municipal system in Hungary is a valuable achievement and we do not want to retreat from that.
The Hungarian municipalities have a wide range of authority, including establishing and operating institutions in the areas of health care and education and in developing the public road network and the sewerage system. However, funding is the weak point of the municipality system in Hungary. Unfortunately we do not have time to go into the details but let me just refer to the following facts.
Municipalities are obliged to operate the education system in their regions, but the state provides only 60% or 65% of the education funding. The rest would obviously have to be provided by the municipalities and these have wide-ranging possibilities for fund-raising. Therefore the standards of institutions they own and operate vary considerably. This is not good because it does not provide for equal opportunity.
Mr. Tóth
It was mentioned that in Ireland there are eight regions, a population of 3.5 million and an area of 72,800 square kilometres. In Hungary there are seven regions, 93,000 square kilometres and a population of 10 million.
On the question of bumpy country roads, I do not wish to start a competition here but there are also plenty of those in Hungary. In another context, the bumpiest road leading to the Hungarian countryside is the EU accession route because probably the first victim of EU accession will be Hungarian agriculture.
On the question of whether or not it is easy to get a permit to build a house in Hungary, I have been operating as a mayor for 13 years and therefore can truly say that it is not difficult. If one can submit the technical documentation in fine condition, then one will receive the building permit in a short time. Local municipalities also operate as the supreme entity offering building permits.
As for the autonomy of municipalities, we define our own budgets and manage those budgets as well. We ourselves also must establish and manage our institutions. There are basic tasks which we must perform. On a voluntary basis we can take on extra responsibilities.
If the municipalities were to be centralised and the forming of communities were to be obligatory as opposed to voluntary, and assuming that municipalities would be financially dependent on each other, then the term "municipality" might become symbolic only. That would be a major dilemma.
Mr. Tóth
The ratio of smokers to non-smokers in the delegation is 1 to 5. Unfortunately that is not the national average in Hungary. I am the smoker.
Municipalities used to complain that they lacked funds and they were right to do so. As opposed to lack of funds, it is now a lack of projects or a lack of applications with business cases.
Mr. Gulyas
I thank the committee for the opportunity of this consultation.
On behalf of the committee, I thank you for meeting us and discussing your situation. I hope you have found the exchange useful and informative. We wish you well and hope that you enjoy the remainder of the visit to Ireland.
The joint committee adjourned at 3.35 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Wednesday, 7 April 2004.